October 22, 2025 • 21 mins
Every year, Holly Wainwright promises herself she won’t burn out again - and every year, she does.
When she told me that, I laughed - not because it’s funny, but because I’ve been there too. Last year, I hit my own wall of exhaustion so hard it became the inspiration for my next book.
In this bonus episode, I sit down with Holly Wainwright - bestselling author and co-host of Mamamia Out Loud - for an honest conversation about burnout, energy, and why breaking the “do-crash-repeat” cycle is harder than it sounds.
We talk about the promises we make to ourselves, the boundaries we fail to keep, and how to start protecting the parts of life that matter most - our health, focus, and family.
Holly and I discuss:
- The patterns that keep Holly stuck in the burnout cycle
- Why she chose “nup” as her word of the year - and how that’s going
- The privilege and guilt tied up in saying no
- How she’s restructuring her week to protect creative focus and family time
- The surprising rewards that keep her motivated (including worm farms)
- The “Yes-But” strategy that sets boundaries without guilt
- My “Never Again” list and how it helps me avoid burnout triggers
- Why rebuilding energy is a constant recalibration, not a one-time fix
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I have not mastered how to portion out my energy
in anything that looks like an even way.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Every year, Holly Wainwright tells herself she won't burn out again,
and every year she does. When Holly told me that,
I laughed, not because it's funny, but because I've been
there too. Last year, I hit my own wall of
absolute exhaustion so hard that it became the inspiration for
(00:29):
my next book. In this bonus episode, Holly and I
talk honestly about the cycles that we fall into, the doing,
the crashing, the promising it's going to be different next time,
and why breaking that loop is so much harder than
it sounds. Holly, who is a best selling author and
co hosts Mama Mia out Loud, shares how she's still
(00:51):
learning to protect her time, her focus, and her health
even when life and work don't make it easy. Welcome
to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals, and strategies.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
For optimizing your date.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. Something that you've written
about over the years is burnout and exhaustion, and it's
something that I really related to, particularly last year. I've
spoken and written quite a lot around how twenty twenty
(01:35):
four was just a year of complete and out of
burnout for me like I've never ever experienced. And that's
really what prompted book number five, which is the working title,
which maybe the real title is the Energy Game, and
it's about how to get more of it. I would
love to know for you, where are you at right
(01:56):
now in terms of your energy.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
It's so funny.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Need a therapy session with you at manth on this
because this is something I have not solved. Almost every
year I say I'm not gonna get myself to that
place again. And I've made a lot of I have
made a lot of changes in my working life over
the past few years in terms of I used to
manage teams of people. I used to be much more
(02:20):
corporately involved in Mamma Mia. I used to have a
million meetings a day and constantly be running to someone
else's schedule, and that has shifted over the past few years.
Now my work is mostly content focused, so obviously I
record Mamma Mia out loud, and I write things and
do things for Mamma Mea, but I try. I've reorganized
my life and my time to be more portioned out
(02:42):
and my dream has always been to be in charge
of my own time. And I'm not there yet, but
one day I will be. I'm much I'm certainly much
closer to it than I was, but burnout and energy,
I'm still not great at So my word of this
year was not because the idea was.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
And I always roll.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
My as a tiny bit when successful people say you've
got to learn to say no to things, because it's
a position of amazing privilege to be in to be
asked for things all the time, right, It's a position
of amazing privilege to be like, no, I don't want
to go to your event, I don't want to do
your you know, speak at your thing like I mean,
these are all really champagne problems. The question I always
(03:20):
ask myself is am I putting my energy in the
right place? Or am I just running for the sake
of that? As I talk to you now, I've just
come off being really sick. I had influenza A and
I was absolutely smashed for three weeks, pretty much like
I had to spend a whole week in bed. I
lost my voice completely for almost ten days. I got
(03:41):
completely gone, and it took me a long time to recover. Now,
influenza A is going around this winter, and it is
a nasty strain. And I'm not going to like pretend
that I got that because of this or because of that.
But what's funny is that the people in my life,
including my partner Brent.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
He's just like, this happens to you. He's like, you
don't get sick because I was.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Really what I was really worried about is early this year,
when the book came out, I was on tour with
Mama mir out loud. It was the busiest time I
can remember for a very long time. I was doing
big live shows, lots of book promotion, appearances at Riders festivals,
on planes, off planes, da da da da da. And
I was obsessed with not getting sick, obsessed sleep, no drinking,
healthy food, a million armor forced tablets, like just whatever.
(04:27):
And I did not get sick, Amantha, I did not.
I was very proud of myself. But then come this August,
I just almost September. Really, I absolutely smashed for three
weeks and.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Says, this always happens to you.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Says you never get sick a little bit, you don't
get sick at all, or you get completely stuck to
the bed sick, and there's me. I'm god, that's not true,
that's not true.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
What are you talking about. I'm never sick.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
And then I saw another old friend and she was like,
this always happens to you. She says, you you're doing
a million things and then you just collapse.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
And I'm like, it's not true. Maybe it's true.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So I've just I'm rebuilding after this sickness, and you
know how you do this when you're coming off something
like that.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
I've got to change everything.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
I don't know if you're like that too, but I'm like,
I've got to change everything. I've got a very busy
October with lots of events too, and lots of travel.
I need to make sure I'm portioning out my energy.
I've been a bit disorganized, as you know, because I
was meant to talk to you last week and I
managed to forget all about it. So I'm on that
(05:32):
train at the minute of trying to hold on to
it again. So I guess this is a very long
way of saying to you, I have not mastered how
to portion out my energy in anything that looks like
an even way, and I still haven't figured out what
you really need to write a book because you would
know even though this is this will be my sixth time,
(05:52):
the book I'm writing now is some uninterrupted focused time.
I don't mean for days and days, but place where
you can let your head just go, let have some
space to think.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
I am still really bad at it.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
I haven't figured it out, and I would like some advice.
How do I stop myself from crashing?
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Well?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
I would love to know, like, what are some of
the changes that you've made over the last few years
that have made a difference, because it sounds like the
Holly now is in a better place than say, Holly
three years ago.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Is that fair to say?
Speaker 1 (06:29):
That's definitely true. What I try and do now is
practically because I lived two hours away from Sydney, which
is where the Mom and Mere studios are, and now
obviously we record all our podcasts for video and everything,
so being in studio is very important. I've kind of
portioned up my week like practically in terms of, well,
this part of the week is this focus, and this
(06:49):
part of the week.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Is that focus.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Now that generally runs okay until it doesn't. You know how,
It's inevitable that things will pop up that are on
different days in different places. But it also means that
I'm away from the family generally at the beginning of
the week, which can be quite guilt inducing. But I've
just Brent and I and the kids have discussed this
a lot, is that it's actually just better for me
to do that, to go, you know, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.
(07:12):
I'm often in the city. It's very intensive work time.
I will work at night, I will get everything, a
lot of things done, so that then later in the
week when I'm home, i'm home, you know, I'm more
present and I can be in charge of my call
and take the kids to this or that, you know,
that kind of thing, cooked dinner, all those things that
I couldn't, to be honest, necessarily do when we were
(07:34):
all living in the city. But I was on a
much more nine to five schedule that generally works having
that kind of focus. I'm trying to be much kinder
to myself about that too, in terms of I know
it's a bit unconventional, it's not what everybody would do,
but it works for the moment. I also, in terms
(07:55):
of my creative time, what works for me, which isn't
very creative at all, is I have to schedule it.
Say it's a Friday and I'm writing, and this is
what happened to us last week. I have to put
certain things in place to try and make my focus
be on my creative work, which include devices in the
house no Internet, because I'm as susceptible to it as
(08:18):
anybody to be immediately distracted by social media notifications, all
those things. You know, I forced myself to go, right,
this is an hour where it's just me and the laptop,
and the laptop that doesn't have all my connections on it.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
And that's what happened to us last week.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
When I was meant to talk to you, I'd forgotten,
and then I wasn't at my calendar all my anyway, so.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
I tried to put Holly.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
I got to say, I actually find that quite impressive
that you are able to just unplug, because I think
a lot of people talk about it, but you had
literally just unplugged last Friday, like there was no way
I could have contacted you, and you are obviously very
in the zone, which I actually think is quite admirable.
I've in the fact that I wanted to speak to
you last week, but I was actually quite impressed as well.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Well, it's if you'd have had my phone number, you
could have got me, because I do still I would
see text messages if they popped up from on my watch. Unfortunately, however,
I have to do it partly for my other professional work,
for my mum and mere work. I can justify the
fact that being on social media, being across everything that's happening,
being connected is work, and it is in a way.
(09:28):
But what I've learned is that I can schedule that
check in time I have to, because otherwise I will
be sitting at my laptop trying to get through a
difficult part of a book, because writing is a lot
of problem solving, and as we all know, when you
come up against something that's tricky and difficult, I immediately
(09:49):
reach for the distraction. And if the distraction is to hand,
and it's Instagram on my browser or you know, news
headline on my phone, I'll lose myself in that, and
then that'll be an hour gone, and then I'll feel
kind of grubby about that. I'll get to the end
of the day and I won't have made any progress.
(10:09):
And it's not to say I can't very easily procrastinate
without a screen because I can, Like.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
I'll be like, oh that shelf needs cleaning.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Oh the flowers outside my shed, like they really need
But I do I have to go on Fridays in particular,
I'd say to the muma mea team who if they
do need me for anything, text me. I'm not checking
my slack, I'm not looking at my you know, I'm
just not because otherwise I just won't get it done.
(10:37):
My focus is terrible. I know I'm not alone in this.
I know it's a massive topic of conversation for you,
and I do genuinely believe and again not an original thought,
that our phones have killed our focus. So yeah, so
I do have to unplug. And then the other thing
I do is I give myself little rewards. So as
lots of people know, I love my garden, my veggie
(10:58):
beds have become my complete opposite. So if I'm at
home and i'm writing, I'll be like, if i get
this number of words done, or I've done two hours,
I'm allowed to go and fiddle around in my worm
farm for a while, or go and steak my tomatoes
or whatever it is, Like, I'm allowed to do that.
But if I haven't, then I'm not like I'm not allowed,
you know, So I have to kind of gain a
(11:19):
fire to a point.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
I love that worm farms a reward for you. For me,
that would be punishment.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
I know.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Burnout doesn't always look like falling apart. Sometimes it's just
saying yes over and over until you realize there's nothing
left in the tank. Coming up, Holly talks about her
year of NAP and the ways she's trying and sometimes
failing to put her energy where it matters most. If
(11:50):
you're looking for more tips to improve the way you
work can live. I write a short weekly newsletter that
contains tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. You
can sign up for that at Amantha dot com. That's
Amantha dot com. Coming back to your word of the year, nup,
(12:13):
Where did that go wrong? Like have you found yourself
saying yes instead of no? Or like what has happened there?
Speaker 1 (12:21):
So the idea about nupp was about this thing about
putting your energy, which is sounds very much where your
book is. You're putting your energy on the things that matter,
you know. So there are things for my work, my career,
whatever it is, that are very important and will move
things forward, and that's worthy of energy, right. But then
there's a whole lot of stuff that's just nice to have,
(12:42):
nice to do, or someone else wants you to do
it more than you want to do it, that you
can say yes to, and suddenly your calendar fills with
things that are taking you, in my case, literally taking
me away from my family that are really not that important, right,
I mean, well, important is the wrong word, not that
crucial to the main aim. So the idea of KNAP
(13:02):
was to say no, but with lightness, like I don't
want to be you know I again, as I say,
I recognize the privileged position to be in somewhere where
somebody wants you to do something. So I don't want
to be like no, everything's no. It's just more like.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
No, that's not for me this week.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Where has fallen down is that there are lots of
things that I want I like doing, you know, like
so for example, and this is not in any if
I get asked to go and interview somebody exciting, but
it's going to take me away from home for a
couple of days, and it's going to take me away
from the book for a couple of days and it's
not going to pay particularly well or it's not gonna
Like in the theory of NUP, I should say no.
(13:41):
But in the theory of Holly who likes to do
fun stuff, and also I would say yes. So I
still find myself looking at the month of October, for example,
looking at the calendar across the month of October and
being like, whoa, I did not say no to anything,
(14:03):
and I'm barely here.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
I mean a lot.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
It'll all be fun and it'll all be great, But
is it really true to the mission of Nope.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
No, it's not.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
But I'm also trying to be kind to myself, and
I'd love to know what you think about this is
that some months are just like that, right, So what
I'm trying to do instead, because what I'll do is
I'll look at the calendar for here for the next month,
and it's crazy, and I'll be.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Like, oh, Holly, you're an idiot. Why did you do that?
Why did you say yes, it's going to be this,
it's going to be that. And instead I just need.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
To go that's October, Like November will be great and
I'll be back with the family and it'll be fine.
I don't know what's your advice.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Well, I think that one of my favorite strategies for
people that think that they should say no more but
they're overloaded and they want to be generous and they
want to do fun things is a strategy and I
heard it on How I Work many years ago.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
It's the yes but strategy.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
And so when you're asked to do something, you say
yes because it sounds like you want to say yes
because you're getting a lot of fun things presented to you.
But then the butt is the boundary. So it might
be yes, I can do an in conversation live with you,
but it has to be on a Tuesday night when
I'm going to be in Sydney anyway.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Or yes, I can.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Help brainstorm this project or this new podcast idea that
you've got, you know person at Muma Mea, But I've
only got twenty minutes and it has to be at
this time, and so it's yes, but boundary. So I
would love for you to try that maybe during October
that we're heading into and see if that can create
(15:38):
a less chaotic November for you.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Can you do that and report back to me, Holly,
I will.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
I will, because that's great, because I think that that's
exactly it is. That it's not about this hard like
I just don't do things. It's about I will do that,
but it has to fit in with the master plan,
whatever the master plan is, which is to protect the
part of my life life that is about my family
and my creative work. Because and I think that for
(16:03):
a lot of and I might be generalizing here, for
a lot of women, there's a guilt about the fact
that somehow often the most important things to me are
the ones that slide to the bottom of the priority list.
Like if I really think about it, you know, obviously
being home for the kids, you know, and being able
to do that, Like, that's incredibly important to me, but
(16:26):
somehow it very often gets deprioritized. And you know, the book,
Like having the space to write books and do them
really well is incredibly important to me. And yet it's
often that kind of work that gets shoved in little
corners around lots of other busy things that aren't as important. Yeah,
So I think that the kind of plan about not
(16:47):
was in was the spirit of it is about that,
about the things that actually really matter. Why are they
always the things that somehow are being shoved around the
things that don't matter so much. Of course, my core
mom and Mia work of Mama Mia out loud and
mid and that is incredibly important, But there's just a
lot of other stuff, you know, and so it's about
(17:09):
trying to be very clear about that.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah, let me give you one other tip, because I'm curious, like,
have you ever said yes to something where you've just
completely regretted it and in the moment you're just thinking, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Like I think that we all have. I definitely have.
And so something else and I'm writing about this in
the book is the idea of a never again list,
(17:34):
And for me, one of the things so I do
a lot of keynote speaking. I get asked a little
a lot of speaking, and somewhat not super regularly, but
it happens enough that I will get asked to speak
at a dinner event. And in my lifetime I've spoken
at a handful of these, and every single one of them,
(17:55):
I think bar one has just been. I've left the
event and I thought why, Like my content is around
self optimization. People are drunk. No one wants to hear
about how to be a better person when they are
drunk and they're just wondering is chocolate on the dessert menu?
But I keep saying yes because I think, oh, this
(18:15):
one will be different.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
And then I thought, I need to do.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Something different here. I am going to start a never
again list, and top of my list is never again
will I speak at a dinner event, because I know
they lead to disaster. And by having a list and
by putting things like that on it, it just removes
the decision making load because you know, if a bureau
or someone reaches out and said, hey, can you speak
(18:38):
it that dinner event, I don't need to think about it.
I don't need to agonize, I don't need to wonder like,
will this one be different? Well no, I will never
find out because never again will I speak at a
dinner So I wonder if that might be something else
for you to try as well.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
That's great.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
I've literally just written these things all yes, but boundary
and never again.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Never.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
You know, it's funny because in my office, my little shed,
which is my happy place, I have post it notes
around my desk that are like because one of the
things about that I know about myself is I hate
feeling fenced in, and so one of the post it
notes above My best says, you don't have to. It's like,
it sounds so silly, but that's a reminder to me
(19:23):
that when I start, as I say, looking at the
calendar or whatever it is and getting all like upset, like, oh,
I'm sure, like you didn't have to do that. You
can choose to change things that even just the idea
of that calms me down.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
You don't have to.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
So I think these post its are going to go
on the collection of post its around the window.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Oh holy, I feel like I can just talk to
you for hours, but I need to let you go
and you need to write book number six.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
So I know your new book is about energy, but
people keep it quote this is hilarious that this is
my reference, but people keep quoting, you know. Taylor Swift
said in her recent one of her recent interviews, treat
your energy like it's expensive, and lots of people have
started saying that, and I'm like, I'm not sure I
know what that means, but maybe this is kind of
what it means, like don't just spend it. But the
(20:14):
idea of the Year of Nap was a bit that
is like, yeah, so anyway, we'll see.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Make it the quarter of nap, Holly, I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Oh, thank you so much for your time. Holly.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Thank you, it's always such a joy to talk to you.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Amantha.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Here is the thing about burnout. It often sneaks up quietly.
It all looks fine until you are flat on your
back wondering how you missed the signs.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
What I loved.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
About this chat with Holly is her honesty and that
reminder that rebuilding your energy isn't a one off fix.
It's a constant recalibration. So the next time you find
yourself running on empty, try asking what am I saying?
Two that's actually draining me? And if this episode resonated,
you might want to go back and listen to the
main conversation I had with Holly on jealousy and ambition.
(21:10):
And if you haven't yet followed How I Work, please
do so hit that follow button so you'll never miss
a new episode. If you like today's Joe, make sure
you hit follow on your podcast app to be alerted
when new episodes dropped. How I Work was recorded on
the traditional land of the Warrangery People, part of the
Cooler Nation
I have not mastered how to portion out my energy
in anything that looks like an even way.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Every year, Holly Wainwright tells herself she won't burn out again,
and every year she does. When Holly told me that,
I laughed, not because it's funny, but because I've been
there too. Last year, I hit my own wall of
absolute exhaustion so hard that it became the inspiration for
(00:29):
my next book. In this bonus episode, Holly and I
talk honestly about the cycles that we fall into, the doing,
the crashing, the promising it's going to be different next time,
and why breaking that loop is so much harder than
it sounds. Holly, who is a best selling author and
co hosts Mama Mia out Loud, shares how she's still
(00:51):
learning to protect her time, her focus, and her health
even when life and work don't make it easy. Welcome
to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals, and strategies.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
For optimizing your date.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. Something that you've written
about over the years is burnout and exhaustion, and it's
something that I really related to, particularly last year. I've
spoken and written quite a lot around how twenty twenty
(01:35):
four was just a year of complete and out of
burnout for me like I've never ever experienced. And that's
really what prompted book number five, which is the working title,
which maybe the real title is the Energy Game, and
it's about how to get more of it. I would
love to know for you, where are you at right
(01:56):
now in terms of your energy.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
It's so funny.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Need a therapy session with you at manth on this
because this is something I have not solved. Almost every
year I say I'm not gonna get myself to that
place again. And I've made a lot of I have
made a lot of changes in my working life over
the past few years in terms of I used to
manage teams of people. I used to be much more
(02:20):
corporately involved in Mamma Mia. I used to have a
million meetings a day and constantly be running to someone
else's schedule, and that has shifted over the past few years.
Now my work is mostly content focused, so obviously I
record Mamma Mia out loud, and I write things and
do things for Mamma Mea, but I try. I've reorganized
my life and my time to be more portioned out
(02:42):
and my dream has always been to be in charge
of my own time. And I'm not there yet, but
one day I will be. I'm much I'm certainly much
closer to it than I was, but burnout and energy,
I'm still not great at So my word of this
year was not because the idea was.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
And I always roll.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
My as a tiny bit when successful people say you've
got to learn to say no to things, because it's
a position of amazing privilege to be in to be
asked for things all the time, right, It's a position
of amazing privilege to be like, no, I don't want
to go to your event, I don't want to do
your you know, speak at your thing like I mean,
these are all really champagne problems. The question I always
(03:20):
ask myself is am I putting my energy in the
right place? Or am I just running for the sake
of that? As I talk to you now, I've just
come off being really sick. I had influenza A and
I was absolutely smashed for three weeks, pretty much like
I had to spend a whole week in bed. I
lost my voice completely for almost ten days. I got
(03:41):
completely gone, and it took me a long time to recover. Now,
influenza A is going around this winter, and it is
a nasty strain. And I'm not going to like pretend
that I got that because of this or because of that.
But what's funny is that the people in my life,
including my partner Brent.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
He's just like, this happens to you. He's like, you
don't get sick because I was.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Really what I was really worried about is early this year,
when the book came out, I was on tour with
Mama mir out loud. It was the busiest time I
can remember for a very long time. I was doing
big live shows, lots of book promotion, appearances at Riders festivals,
on planes, off planes, da da da da da. And
I was obsessed with not getting sick, obsessed sleep, no drinking,
healthy food, a million armor forced tablets, like just whatever.
(04:27):
And I did not get sick, Amantha, I did not.
I was very proud of myself. But then come this August,
I just almost September. Really, I absolutely smashed for three
weeks and.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Says, this always happens to you.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Says you never get sick a little bit, you don't
get sick at all, or you get completely stuck to
the bed sick, and there's me. I'm god, that's not true,
that's not true.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
What are you talking about. I'm never sick.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
And then I saw another old friend and she was like,
this always happens to you. She says, you you're doing
a million things and then you just collapse.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
And I'm like, it's not true. Maybe it's true.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So I've just I'm rebuilding after this sickness, and you
know how you do this when you're coming off something
like that.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
I've got to change everything.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
I don't know if you're like that too, but I'm like,
I've got to change everything. I've got a very busy
October with lots of events too, and lots of travel.
I need to make sure I'm portioning out my energy.
I've been a bit disorganized, as you know, because I
was meant to talk to you last week and I
managed to forget all about it. So I'm on that
(05:32):
train at the minute of trying to hold on to
it again. So I guess this is a very long
way of saying to you, I have not mastered how
to portion out my energy in anything that looks like
an even way, and I still haven't figured out what
you really need to write a book because you would
know even though this is this will be my sixth time,
(05:52):
the book I'm writing now is some uninterrupted focused time.
I don't mean for days and days, but place where
you can let your head just go, let have some
space to think.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
I am still really bad at it.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
I haven't figured it out, and I would like some advice.
How do I stop myself from crashing?
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Well?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
I would love to know, like, what are some of
the changes that you've made over the last few years
that have made a difference, because it sounds like the
Holly now is in a better place than say, Holly
three years ago.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Is that fair to say?
Speaker 1 (06:29):
That's definitely true. What I try and do now is
practically because I lived two hours away from Sydney, which
is where the Mom and Mere studios are, and now
obviously we record all our podcasts for video and everything,
so being in studio is very important. I've kind of
portioned up my week like practically in terms of, well,
this part of the week is this focus, and this
(06:49):
part of the week.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Is that focus.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Now that generally runs okay until it doesn't. You know how,
It's inevitable that things will pop up that are on
different days in different places. But it also means that
I'm away from the family generally at the beginning of
the week, which can be quite guilt inducing. But I've
just Brent and I and the kids have discussed this
a lot, is that it's actually just better for me
to do that, to go, you know, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.
(07:12):
I'm often in the city. It's very intensive work time.
I will work at night, I will get everything, a
lot of things done, so that then later in the
week when I'm home, i'm home, you know, I'm more
present and I can be in charge of my call
and take the kids to this or that, you know,
that kind of thing, cooked dinner, all those things that
I couldn't, to be honest, necessarily do when we were
(07:34):
all living in the city. But I was on a
much more nine to five schedule that generally works having
that kind of focus. I'm trying to be much kinder
to myself about that too, in terms of I know
it's a bit unconventional, it's not what everybody would do,
but it works for the moment. I also, in terms
(07:55):
of my creative time, what works for me, which isn't
very creative at all, is I have to schedule it.
Say it's a Friday and I'm writing, and this is
what happened to us last week. I have to put
certain things in place to try and make my focus
be on my creative work, which include devices in the
house no Internet, because I'm as susceptible to it as
(08:18):
anybody to be immediately distracted by social media notifications, all
those things. You know, I forced myself to go, right,
this is an hour where it's just me and the laptop,
and the laptop that doesn't have all my connections on it.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
And that's what happened to us last week.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
When I was meant to talk to you, I'd forgotten,
and then I wasn't at my calendar all my anyway, so.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
I tried to put Holly.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
I got to say, I actually find that quite impressive
that you are able to just unplug, because I think
a lot of people talk about it, but you had
literally just unplugged last Friday, like there was no way
I could have contacted you, and you are obviously very
in the zone, which I actually think is quite admirable.
I've in the fact that I wanted to speak to
you last week, but I was actually quite impressed as well.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Well, it's if you'd have had my phone number, you
could have got me, because I do still I would
see text messages if they popped up from on my watch. Unfortunately, however,
I have to do it partly for my other professional work,
for my mum and mere work. I can justify the
fact that being on social media, being across everything that's happening,
being connected is work, and it is in a way.
(09:28):
But what I've learned is that I can schedule that
check in time I have to, because otherwise I will
be sitting at my laptop trying to get through a
difficult part of a book, because writing is a lot
of problem solving, and as we all know, when you
come up against something that's tricky and difficult, I immediately
(09:49):
reach for the distraction. And if the distraction is to hand,
and it's Instagram on my browser or you know, news
headline on my phone, I'll lose myself in that, and
then that'll be an hour gone, and then I'll feel
kind of grubby about that. I'll get to the end
of the day and I won't have made any progress.
(10:09):
And it's not to say I can't very easily procrastinate
without a screen because I can, Like.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
I'll be like, oh that shelf needs cleaning.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Oh the flowers outside my shed, like they really need
But I do I have to go on Fridays in particular,
I'd say to the muma mea team who if they
do need me for anything, text me. I'm not checking
my slack, I'm not looking at my you know, I'm
just not because otherwise I just won't get it done.
(10:37):
My focus is terrible. I know I'm not alone in this.
I know it's a massive topic of conversation for you,
and I do genuinely believe and again not an original thought,
that our phones have killed our focus. So yeah, so
I do have to unplug. And then the other thing
I do is I give myself little rewards. So as
lots of people know, I love my garden, my veggie
(10:58):
beds have become my complete opposite. So if I'm at
home and i'm writing, I'll be like, if i get
this number of words done, or I've done two hours,
I'm allowed to go and fiddle around in my worm
farm for a while, or go and steak my tomatoes
or whatever it is, Like, I'm allowed to do that.
But if I haven't, then I'm not like I'm not allowed,
you know, So I have to kind of gain a
(11:19):
fire to a point.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
I love that worm farms a reward for you. For me,
that would be punishment.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
I know.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Burnout doesn't always look like falling apart. Sometimes it's just
saying yes over and over until you realize there's nothing
left in the tank. Coming up, Holly talks about her
year of NAP and the ways she's trying and sometimes
failing to put her energy where it matters most. If
(11:50):
you're looking for more tips to improve the way you
work can live. I write a short weekly newsletter that
contains tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. You
can sign up for that at Amantha dot com. That's
Amantha dot com. Coming back to your word of the year, nup,
(12:13):
Where did that go wrong? Like have you found yourself
saying yes instead of no? Or like what has happened there?
Speaker 1 (12:21):
So the idea about nupp was about this thing about
putting your energy, which is sounds very much where your
book is. You're putting your energy on the things that matter,
you know. So there are things for my work, my career,
whatever it is, that are very important and will move
things forward, and that's worthy of energy, right. But then
there's a whole lot of stuff that's just nice to have,
(12:42):
nice to do, or someone else wants you to do
it more than you want to do it, that you
can say yes to, and suddenly your calendar fills with
things that are taking you, in my case, literally taking
me away from my family that are really not that important, right,
I mean, well, important is the wrong word, not that
crucial to the main aim. So the idea of KNAP
(13:02):
was to say no, but with lightness, like I don't
want to be you know I again, as I say,
I recognize the privileged position to be in somewhere where
somebody wants you to do something. So I don't want
to be like no, everything's no. It's just more like.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
No, that's not for me this week.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Where has fallen down is that there are lots of
things that I want I like doing, you know, like
so for example, and this is not in any if
I get asked to go and interview somebody exciting, but
it's going to take me away from home for a
couple of days, and it's going to take me away
from the book for a couple of days and it's
not going to pay particularly well or it's not gonna
Like in the theory of NUP, I should say no.
(13:41):
But in the theory of Holly who likes to do
fun stuff, and also I would say yes. So I
still find myself looking at the month of October, for example,
looking at the calendar across the month of October and
being like, whoa, I did not say no to anything,
(14:03):
and I'm barely here.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
I mean a lot.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
It'll all be fun and it'll all be great, But
is it really true to the mission of Nope.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
No, it's not.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
But I'm also trying to be kind to myself, and
I'd love to know what you think about this is
that some months are just like that, right, So what
I'm trying to do instead, because what I'll do is
I'll look at the calendar for here for the next month,
and it's crazy, and I'll be.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Like, oh, Holly, you're an idiot. Why did you do that?
Why did you say yes, it's going to be this,
it's going to be that. And instead I just need.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
To go that's October, Like November will be great and
I'll be back with the family and it'll be fine.
I don't know what's your advice.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Well, I think that one of my favorite strategies for
people that think that they should say no more but
they're overloaded and they want to be generous and they
want to do fun things is a strategy and I
heard it on How I Work many years ago.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
It's the yes but strategy.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
And so when you're asked to do something, you say
yes because it sounds like you want to say yes
because you're getting a lot of fun things presented to you.
But then the butt is the boundary. So it might
be yes, I can do an in conversation live with you,
but it has to be on a Tuesday night when
I'm going to be in Sydney anyway.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Or yes, I can.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Help brainstorm this project or this new podcast idea that
you've got, you know person at Muma Mea, But I've
only got twenty minutes and it has to be at
this time, and so it's yes, but boundary. So I
would love for you to try that maybe during October
that we're heading into and see if that can create
(15:38):
a less chaotic November for you.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Can you do that and report back to me, Holly,
I will.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
I will, because that's great, because I think that that's
exactly it is. That it's not about this hard like
I just don't do things. It's about I will do that,
but it has to fit in with the master plan,
whatever the master plan is, which is to protect the
part of my life life that is about my family
and my creative work. Because and I think that for
(16:03):
a lot of and I might be generalizing here, for
a lot of women, there's a guilt about the fact
that somehow often the most important things to me are
the ones that slide to the bottom of the priority list.
Like if I really think about it, you know, obviously
being home for the kids, you know, and being able
to do that, Like, that's incredibly important to me, but
(16:26):
somehow it very often gets deprioritized. And you know, the book,
Like having the space to write books and do them
really well is incredibly important to me. And yet it's
often that kind of work that gets shoved in little
corners around lots of other busy things that aren't as important. Yeah,
So I think that the kind of plan about not
(16:47):
was in was the spirit of it is about that,
about the things that actually really matter. Why are they
always the things that somehow are being shoved around the
things that don't matter so much. Of course, my core
mom and Mia work of Mama Mia out loud and
mid and that is incredibly important, But there's just a
lot of other stuff, you know, and so it's about
(17:09):
trying to be very clear about that.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah, let me give you one other tip, because I'm curious, like,
have you ever said yes to something where you've just
completely regretted it and in the moment you're just thinking, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Like I think that we all have. I definitely have.
And so something else and I'm writing about this in
the book is the idea of a never again list,
(17:34):
And for me, one of the things so I do
a lot of keynote speaking. I get asked a little
a lot of speaking, and somewhat not super regularly, but
it happens enough that I will get asked to speak
at a dinner event. And in my lifetime I've spoken
at a handful of these, and every single one of them,
(17:55):
I think bar one has just been. I've left the
event and I thought why, Like my content is around
self optimization. People are drunk. No one wants to hear
about how to be a better person when they are
drunk and they're just wondering is chocolate on the dessert menu?
But I keep saying yes because I think, oh, this
(18:15):
one will be different.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
And then I thought, I need to do.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Something different here. I am going to start a never
again list, and top of my list is never again
will I speak at a dinner event, because I know
they lead to disaster. And by having a list and
by putting things like that on it, it just removes
the decision making load because you know, if a bureau
or someone reaches out and said, hey, can you speak
(18:38):
it that dinner event, I don't need to think about it.
I don't need to agonize, I don't need to wonder like,
will this one be different? Well no, I will never
find out because never again will I speak at a
dinner So I wonder if that might be something else
for you to try as well.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
That's great.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
I've literally just written these things all yes, but boundary
and never again.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Never.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
You know, it's funny because in my office, my little shed,
which is my happy place, I have post it notes
around my desk that are like because one of the
things about that I know about myself is I hate
feeling fenced in, and so one of the post it
notes above My best says, you don't have to. It's like,
it sounds so silly, but that's a reminder to me
(19:23):
that when I start, as I say, looking at the
calendar or whatever it is and getting all like upset, like, oh,
I'm sure, like you didn't have to do that. You
can choose to change things that even just the idea
of that calms me down.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
You don't have to.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
So I think these post its are going to go
on the collection of post its around the window.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Oh holy, I feel like I can just talk to
you for hours, but I need to let you go
and you need to write book number six.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
So I know your new book is about energy, but
people keep it quote this is hilarious that this is
my reference, but people keep quoting, you know. Taylor Swift
said in her recent one of her recent interviews, treat
your energy like it's expensive, and lots of people have
started saying that, and I'm like, I'm not sure I
know what that means, but maybe this is kind of
what it means, like don't just spend it. But the
(20:14):
idea of the Year of Nap was a bit that
is like, yeah, so anyway, we'll see.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Make it the quarter of nap, Holly, I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Oh, thank you so much for your time. Holly.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Thank you, it's always such a joy to talk to you.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Amantha.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Here is the thing about burnout. It often sneaks up quietly.
It all looks fine until you are flat on your
back wondering how you missed the signs.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
What I loved.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
About this chat with Holly is her honesty and that
reminder that rebuilding your energy isn't a one off fix.
It's a constant recalibration. So the next time you find
yourself running on empty, try asking what am I saying?
Two that's actually draining me? And if this episode resonated,
you might want to go back and listen to the
main conversation I had with Holly on jealousy and ambition.
(21:10):
And if you haven't yet followed How I Work, please
do so hit that follow button so you'll never miss
a new episode. If you like today's Joe, make sure
you hit follow on your podcast app to be alerted
when new episodes dropped. How I Work was recorded on
the traditional land of the Warrangery People, part of the
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