October 29, 2025 • 24 mins
We often talk about success stories, not the moments when things completely fall apart. But sometimes, that’s where the biggest lessons hide.
In part one of my two-part conversation with my teammate Aly Solly, we talk about Inventium’s hardest year yet – the one that tested trust, stretched leadership, and forced us to rebuild from the inside out.
After I released my Leadership Lessons episode from 2024, I had so many people reach out asking what really happened. How bad did it get? And how did we fix things?
So, I sat down with Aly – who lived through that tough period – to unpack what it actually feels like when a high-performing team starts to unravel.
Together, we talk about the cracks that appeared when trust faded, what it’s like to lead through burnout, and how even the best intentions can backfire.
Aly and I discuss:
- The inside story of Inventium’s most challenging year – when hierarchy and structure divided the team instead of strengthening it.
- How burnout crept in and why high performers stopped working together.
- The unexpected damage caused by trying to “do the right thing.”
- How Aly’s trust in the team – and in me – began to fracture.
- The small moments that started to rebuild trust between us.
- What it’s like to face retrenchments as both a leader and teammate.
- The moment everything finally broke – and the phone call that changed how we work together.
KEY QUOTES
“It’s funny how the most instinctive thing to do is often the least constructive thing to do.”
“I was so burnt out, but that moment we rebuilt trust reminded me what mattered about the work we do.”
Connect with Aly Solly
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello listener. This episode is a little bit different because
I'm interviewing someone from my team at Inventium, Ali Sully.
The idea came about after I published my Leadership Lessons
episode from twenty twenty four and a lot of people
contacted me wanting to know more like how bad did
(00:22):
it get and more importantly, how did we fix things?
So who better to unpack this with than one of
my amazing teammates, Ali, who lived through what was Inventium's
hardest year by far. Together, we pull apart what it
actually feels like inside a team that is kind of unraveling,
(00:45):
when trust cracks, when burnout creeps in, and when even
the high performers start to fall apart.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
It's a pretty raw.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
And human look at what happens when good intentions backfire
and how you can start to rebuild when the damage
is already done. Welcome to How I Work, a show
about habits, rituals, and strategies for optimizing your date. I'm
(01:17):
your host, doctor Amantha Imber. I'm so excited to be
chatting to you Ali, because we've worked together for a
couple of years and I was saying to you when
we were thinking about this episode that you don't often
hear podcast conversations where like the leader of a team
(01:40):
is chatting with a teammate's experience of a time that
was really challenging.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
So I'm really grateful for you joining me today.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
My pleasure. I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
So I want to first start with unpacking the pretty
hard year that twenty twenty four maybe like a little
bit of twenty two three, but certainly twenty twenty four
was for Inventium and I've certainly done a lot of
reflecting on where I think I got it wrong. And
I'm also keen to hear from you, like what were
(02:12):
the hardest things? So, Alie, what was some of the
tougher moments for you in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
It's really interesting because I feel like there are a
few moments that kind of came together at some sort
of pinnacles through the year, and I guess my lowest
point in reflection I was thinking about this last night
was there were quite a few people that left in
a row, and because we had brought in a bit
(02:42):
of hierarchy at the start of the year, I was working.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Very very closely with one or two people and.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
Not the rest of the team, So I think that
had its own issues that made it tricky to begin with,
in that we were all working as high performers but
not working together. And I was thinking about this last night,
thinking about the super Chickens experiment around you know, high performing,
productive chickens and how they bred them over a number
(03:11):
of years, but they actually ended up pecking each other
and not being as productive as the team that was cohesive.
And I thought that was such a good little summary
of where we were at.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
We're all just high performers, but we weren't working together.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
And I think when that, you know, we had a
series of people leave, and the point at which my
key confidante left, I guess that was a real low
point for me and I realized how siloed we were
in that way because I thought, well, first of.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
All, how can I leave me?
Speaker 4 (03:48):
But also during this time, but also who are these
other people in my team? And I actually didn't know,
you know, I didn't have the same level of trust
with everyone else on the team. So I think in
around that way, you know, coming back to those tough moments,
had I seen what was coming up, it kind of
started to unravel for me at that first part of
(04:10):
the year where we were working so siloed in that way,
And yeah, I remember so many times where this was
apparent and at that moment where I thought, wow, I've
lost that one person. But there were many times through
the year and I remember each of us working towards
our own goals and this moment where I was snowed under,
(04:31):
you know, consulting was snowed under with what we were doing,
and then the other areas had their own priorities and
using loop and all of the tagging in all of
the different tasks, and one day where I was like,
oh my goodness, I don't know how I'm going to
get through, and then in came you know, fifty different
pings and dings of you've been assigned this task, you've
been assigned, and I just thought, Wow, I know they've
(04:53):
got their.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Priorities, but we have ours.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
And there really was no overlap for quite a lot
of that time, so that made it incredibly difficult as well.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Yeah, when I look back at some of the decisions
I made in the first half of the year where
I had stepped back into a leadership position, I definitely
I remember why I put some hierarchy and different group
things of people in place because to me, and it's funny,
like you can put so much thought into a decision
(05:24):
and be aware of research, but then they can just
be terrible decisions.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
And I look back and I know why I made the.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Decision, but it was a really bad decision in hindsight
because having more hierarchy.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
While I think it was you know, like I.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Think it's natural to sort of, you know, want to
feel that sense of progression, I felt that was necessary
for some people in the team to have that feeling
and that responsibility. The unintended consequences were that it really
divided the team and having the different areas and we were,
(06:05):
you know, we still are a small business. I think
we were, you know, around the sort of ten to
twelve mark, which as a CEO, like ten to twelve
people is too many direct reports and so there needs
to be some kind of structure. But I have huge
regrets about those decisions because I think, you know, as
you've highlighted, they didn't lead to positive behaviors. I also
(06:27):
think that you know, what happened in the middle of
the year, we had a change of leadership, and I
know that that was really hard.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
For you, yeah, incredibly hard. I think it's natural for
new leaders to come in and we see this all
the time with organizations that we work with, with leaders
coming in and really keen to imprint something into the
organization very early on, and there can be some assumptions
(06:54):
around how you've worked before and that that will work
in the new organization. And I completely respect that need
to feel value straight up. But with inventingum, I think
the ways of working were under fire quite early with
new ways of working with new leadership, and had that
(07:17):
been at another organization, potentially it wouldn't have had so
much a resentment towards changing workplace practices. But because that's
who we are, that's our DNA, it's what we help
other organizations to do, is to work better and to
be happier and more productive.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
So when the ways of working were under.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
Fire with things like you know, the meetings culture changing
to be in line with a lot of what we
don't teach around you know, meetings going over time and
not being effective and not really having a real clear
purpose to meetings and some of these things that when
you're used to working and I think when you've been
(07:59):
you know, so intense about the practices that we've put
into place, that that was a really confronting place to be,
and I think it led to a lot of people
being offside from the very go. And you know, it's
very hard for a leader to then pull everything back
after that has been the case.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
It is hard to rebuild trust once trust has been lost. Yeah,
I know a couple of things that I found quite
hard is Firstly, and it's something that we've heard other
leaders say in our own research and inventium, but I
had this really acute fear of just like what if
(08:41):
I say the wrong thing and what if I'm canceled,
Like in the same way that like high profile people
have a fear of cancelation. I felt like as a leader,
I feel like every word I said was just under critique,
and I therefore I felt like I silenced a lot
of what I wanted to say, just simply out of fear.
(09:02):
And I think that the unintended consequence of that is that,
you know, as a leader, we're told to be authentic
and be vulnerable, But because I was censoring myself so much,
I feel like I hid a lot of my experience
that might have actually been useful for people, which will
go into in terms of what happened in twenty twenty five,
because I felt that was quite a big change for me.
(09:24):
Something else I felt like it was kind of happening
before twenty twenty four, but seemed to get a lot worse,
which I think had a really negative impact on the culture,
was what I think of as triangulation where someone will have, say,
some critical feedback for someone else on the team, but
(09:45):
rather than going directly to that team member, they will
go up the chain to their manager, for example, or
just someone else that you know that might be their
confidante on the team and not necessarily their manager, and
then you have this triangle effect. And I got to say, like,
I think everyone of the team knows how much I
hate that behavior I saw that particularly happening.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Like, what was your experience of that triangulation?
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Yeah, it's interesting because you know, I wasn't privy to
a lot of the conversations at that time where a
lot of those big discussions were happening, But being in
the outside part of the team of those conversations, I
think there was times where that became a bit of
a silo in itself too, and a bit of backchat
(10:29):
around what was happening, and then in our little streams
talking about things but actually not having a clear message
up and down. And I do think when you are
seeking safety in amongst change with which I think we
were all doing and with you know, we're in fight
and flight for a lot of that time, for quite
(10:51):
a long time of thinking, oh my goodness, so we
were going to be around anymore, what's happening?
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Like what's going on here?
Speaker 4 (10:58):
Quite high pressure on every So I think that's seeking
of safety and you seek out that person that's your confidant,
and so all of those conversations happen behind. So I
certainly did, you know, have some conversations like that myself
and know that that was happening around as well. And
you know, I know we'll talk about the future state,
but I can. I was reflecting on this last night
(11:21):
around how different it is where those conversations are just
aired straight away and nipped in the bud, compared to
some of those ones that were swirling around. Yeah, it's
a hard one because I think under that pressure, that's
what we automatically do is to go to that safety.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
So yeah, interesting during that.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Time, Yeah, it's so funny how the most instinctive thing
to do is also the least constructive thing to do.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Absolutely coming up.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Ali shares what pushed her to quietly start browsing on Seek,
the moment that began to rebuild trust between us, and
the day everything finally broke, an ugly cryphone call that
changed how we work together. If you're looking for more
(12:10):
tips to improve the way you work can Live. I
write a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered
that have helped me personally. You can sign up for
that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot Com. Tell
me about getting on Seek, Allie.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Yes, I was on Seek for a few weeks.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
I was very open when we had that final discussion
about what's going on, and I felt this incredible weight
on me actually of like it's not me really to
be doing, you know, not voicing how I'm feeling and
not being transparent.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
I'm very transparent.
Speaker 4 (12:50):
Person, so I feel like I had this incredible burden
on me, and I remember that moment.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
I've said to you, by.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
The way, I've been looking at other jobs and feeling
like sorry, but yeah, it was you know, I know
that other people were and I thought, you know, there
was a point at which I thought, potentially, maybe I
won't be around, Maybe my head's on the chopping block,
maybe the company's not going to be around.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Maybe this is a chance.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
You know, there were so many unknowns, and I think
also I was so burnt out with what was going on.
There was an incredible amount of you know, we were
all working very long hours, but there was a lot
of that incivility in the in the team, of like
not working cohesively, and so I think at that point
(13:37):
I started looking, and you know, I looked around for
something that I had never looked for, which was pay.
I thought, if I'm going to be this miserable, I'm
going to look for a high paying, miserable job.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
So looking for you know, leadership.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
Positions here, and I just thought, because I'm so values driven,
I was like, this isn't me, Like, this isn't what
I want to be doing. So I think that did
lead to my decision eventually to stay and to help
rebuild what I really valued and knew was the DNA
of Inventium.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
But yeah, at the time, it was looking for direction.
I guess as well.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
In the I really didn't have any direction in the
uncertainty of all the change.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Building trust I know was really important, and I think
it's fair to say there were probably a few moments
for you where where trust was built between the two
of us, because as context, we didn't have a lot
to do with each other for probably your first I
don't know, six to nine months at Inventium, and I
(14:47):
know that one key moment for you was in August
last year where you were credited in a particular well
being surveyed the GLWS, the GLWS which stands for the
Global Leader Leadorship Well Being Survey, and I think we
were thinking of using it with clients, and that led
(15:09):
to me just being a guinea pig. And you've done
many debriefs in this survey. Can you tell me what
happened on that day where we got together and we
got together in person feed to debrief me on my results?
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Yeah? I remember.
Speaker 4 (15:24):
So the survey in itself is very thorough and it
goes through all aspects of work and home life, so
you know, it's an incredibly vulnerable position for you to
put yourself in. So I was quite aware of the
fact that we hadn't necessarily built up that trust as well,
And I remember at one point when we started diving
(15:45):
in and you said, I don't know how much to
give because how much I need to keep my sort
of position here and that professionalism, and how much I
need to give over to the survey and these results
and being open and honest, and and you said, I'm
just going to go for it because I'm only going
to get out what I put in.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
And at that moment, I think.
Speaker 4 (16:09):
It just opened up vulnerability for you, vulnerability for me
as well, to just be present with you with that,
And I think that moment was a real starting point
for that really strong trust that then continued.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
To go to where we are today.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
But yeah, that moment, I think had you been guarded
through that and not really shared openly and honestly.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
I would have known and I would have been like, Okay,
this is just us.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
Now, we're just going to skirt around the edges as
we all have been doing for six months. But I
think that really showed great faith in me and absolutely
more faith in you. From my perspective as well.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
I know that one of the hardest parts of the
year was when retrenchments were happening, and you know, I
mean retrenchments are just awful for the person that is
losing their job. I've never been through it myself, but
I've had close friends go through it and have seen
just like what that experience is like for several people
(17:11):
that are really dear to me. And it's also if
you're a leader with even an ounce of empathy, which
most leaders are, it's a really hard and awful decision
to make. And I would say those decisions that I
had to make were preceded by months, literally months of
sleepless nights going there must be an alternative. And I
(17:32):
know for you it was really hard because some of
the people involved were people you were very close to.
And I'd love to hear about how those moments, again,
like on the topic of trust, that I was able
to do that consciously or unconsciously in a way that
helped us build our relationship.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
Yeah, I think this was a really pivotal moment. As
you know, I was in quite a bit of grief
land this point of time. You know how I managed
to get an ounce of work done.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
In that moment?
Speaker 4 (18:06):
It was Yeah, I was quite flawed. So I do
remember a moment that just really flawed me in a
good way where you know, we've been through this before
in a couple of weeks earlier, and that hit me hard.
But then when that continued to happen, it just really
(18:26):
ground me down. And I remember, unlike what probably your
instinct was, was to keep calling and to check in,
just regular consistent messaging and letting me know that you
were there without forcing it on me at a time
when I wasn't ready to talk, and then when I
(18:47):
was finally ready, I think it was a couple of
days later, whereas I just need some space. But a
couple of days later when we did actually talk, and
rather than going into justifying or you know, coming up
with anything from that you thought would help me, your
first reaction was, what do you need from me? Do
(19:08):
you need me to listen and for you to vent
or do you need me to reassure you and work
out a pathway forward here? And I've never had that
before actually from a leader, because in times of change,
I had always had leaders that had gone away, thought
about it and come back to me with what was
going to go on. So it was really different and refreshing,
(19:32):
and at that moment it also put that back on
me to reflect on where am I at with this grief?
And I think at that moment I was like, actually,
I need you to reassure me. I need us to
start working through the steps.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
What are we going to do? How are we going
to get out of this?
Speaker 4 (19:47):
And again that trust that we were able to build
and collaboration on trying to envision a different future, that
was really pivotal for me.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
I know that another pivotal point happened in the back
half of the year where you had a massive workload
because the people that had left been retrenched. You picked
up quite a lot of work and there was a
moment where another teammate threw a whole lot of work
(20:18):
on you, even though they.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Probably could have made the time to do it themselves.
Tell me about what happened there.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
Yeah, this was a real low point. I'd actually forgotten
about it till recently because I put it in the
back of my mind.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
But yeah, you're right. I was just swamped with work.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
It was the week leading up to Christmas as well,
so there's already high stakes in getting things across the line,
and had been working collaboratively and so I had thought,
we're going to get this done together across the line
and having looked in, you know, there was a message
come through that I'm not going to have time to
(20:55):
look at that. And then when I went in to
see what was taking precedent, you know whether I can
help out with that as well. We're all just hands
on deck at that moment to get things through for
clients before Christmas, and they'd chosen to go on a
client's end of year party extravaganza. And I think it
(21:16):
was two things. It was I was flawed by again
that individualistic approach to work. That is not the fundamentals
of how we work together at Inventium and especially now,
but it had become the way that we were working
with individual goals and individual priorities. But yeah, the other
(21:36):
thing was I was just I had zero capacity and
I was just thinking, what am I going to do?
I literally cannot do this. I'm going to have to
work twenty four hours a day. I think because of
all of the moments, and it was those small, consistent
moments over time, it wasn't one thing that led me
to think I really trust Samantha. It was all of
(21:57):
these check in moments and being vulnerable and honest with you.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
I decided to pick up the phone.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
You were in NUSA at the time, so it was
sort of this moment of going, I can't call her,
but I had reached the bottom and I just ugly
cried to you on the phone and I thought, you know,
I never thought I would be doing this, And yeah,
it got to that point and I was like, I
just can't do this, and you jumped on and helped
me for that day to get over it, you know,
(22:26):
to get that work done. But that was, yeah, incredibly
low point and probably a real reflection of where we
had got to as pretty much the lowest point I
think as a team.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Yeah, I remember getting that call from you because I
had taken a week of leave and I didn't expect
to be contacted, I don't think. And then yeah, when
you called me, I just remember just just I just
need to help, Like it doesn't really matter that I'm
on leave. It's like I just need to get in
(23:00):
here and help. And also I thought my knowledge of
the project is different to Allie's, and two three hours
of me doing some intense work is the equivalent to
you probably taking two days to catch up. So I
just thought that decision makes sense to me.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
I think it really set the tone as well heading
into Christmas for us to take into the next year,
because it could have ended very badly where I went
across Christmas and thought that's it for me, I'm out.
But instead that moment where we came together in crisis
(23:36):
really solidified what that was for us as a company.
I think for the next year.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Today was just part one of my chat with Ali
because we kept on talking. Next week, I'm going to
be releasing part two of our chat, where together we
unpack exactly how we set that reset button. We're going
to be talking about the off site that really changed,
the tiny rituals that rebuilt connection, and the moment I
(24:04):
realized my fear of saying the wrong thing had finally disappeared.
Make sure you hit follow wherever you listen to this
podcast to be alerted when next week's conversation drops. And
if you know someone who'd benefit hearing this pretty honest
chat about leadership, please share the episode with them. How
I Work was recorded on the traditional land of the
(24:26):
Warrangery People, part of the Cooler Nation
Hello listener. This episode is a little bit different because
I'm interviewing someone from my team at Inventium, Ali Sully.
The idea came about after I published my Leadership Lessons
episode from twenty twenty four and a lot of people
contacted me wanting to know more like how bad did
(00:22):
it get and more importantly, how did we fix things?
So who better to unpack this with than one of
my amazing teammates, Ali, who lived through what was Inventium's
hardest year by far. Together, we pull apart what it
actually feels like inside a team that is kind of unraveling,
(00:45):
when trust cracks, when burnout creeps in, and when even
the high performers start to fall apart.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
It's a pretty raw.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
And human look at what happens when good intentions backfire
and how you can start to rebuild when the damage
is already done. Welcome to How I Work, a show
about habits, rituals, and strategies for optimizing your date. I'm
(01:17):
your host, doctor Amantha Imber. I'm so excited to be
chatting to you Ali, because we've worked together for a
couple of years and I was saying to you when
we were thinking about this episode that you don't often
hear podcast conversations where like the leader of a team
(01:40):
is chatting with a teammate's experience of a time that
was really challenging.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
So I'm really grateful for you joining me today.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
My pleasure. I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
So I want to first start with unpacking the pretty
hard year that twenty twenty four maybe like a little
bit of twenty two three, but certainly twenty twenty four
was for Inventium and I've certainly done a lot of
reflecting on where I think I got it wrong. And
I'm also keen to hear from you, like what were
(02:12):
the hardest things? So, Alie, what was some of the
tougher moments for you in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
It's really interesting because I feel like there are a
few moments that kind of came together at some sort
of pinnacles through the year, and I guess my lowest
point in reflection I was thinking about this last night
was there were quite a few people that left in
a row, and because we had brought in a bit
(02:42):
of hierarchy at the start of the year, I was working.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Very very closely with one or two people and.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
Not the rest of the team, So I think that
had its own issues that made it tricky to begin with,
in that we were all working as high performers but
not working together. And I was thinking about this last night,
thinking about the super Chickens experiment around you know, high performing,
productive chickens and how they bred them over a number
(03:11):
of years, but they actually ended up pecking each other
and not being as productive as the team that was cohesive.
And I thought that was such a good little summary
of where we were at.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
We're all just high performers, but we weren't working together.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
And I think when that, you know, we had a
series of people leave, and the point at which my
key confidante left, I guess that was a real low
point for me and I realized how siloed we were
in that way because I thought, well, first of.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
All, how can I leave me?
Speaker 4 (03:48):
But also during this time, but also who are these
other people in my team? And I actually didn't know,
you know, I didn't have the same level of trust
with everyone else on the team. So I think in
around that way, you know, coming back to those tough moments,
had I seen what was coming up, it kind of
started to unravel for me at that first part of
(04:10):
the year where we were working so siloed in that way,
And yeah, I remember so many times where this was
apparent and at that moment where I thought, wow, I've
lost that one person. But there were many times through
the year and I remember each of us working towards
our own goals and this moment where I was snowed under,
(04:31):
you know, consulting was snowed under with what we were doing,
and then the other areas had their own priorities and
using loop and all of the tagging in all of
the different tasks, and one day where I was like,
oh my goodness, I don't know how I'm going to
get through, and then in came you know, fifty different
pings and dings of you've been assigned this task, you've
been assigned, and I just thought, Wow, I know they've
(04:53):
got their.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Priorities, but we have ours.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
And there really was no overlap for quite a lot
of that time, so that made it incredibly difficult as well.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Yeah, when I look back at some of the decisions
I made in the first half of the year where
I had stepped back into a leadership position, I definitely
I remember why I put some hierarchy and different group
things of people in place because to me, and it's funny,
like you can put so much thought into a decision
(05:24):
and be aware of research, but then they can just
be terrible decisions.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
And I look back and I know why I made the.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Decision, but it was a really bad decision in hindsight
because having more hierarchy.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
While I think it was you know, like I.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Think it's natural to sort of, you know, want to
feel that sense of progression, I felt that was necessary
for some people in the team to have that feeling
and that responsibility. The unintended consequences were that it really
divided the team and having the different areas and we were,
(06:05):
you know, we still are a small business. I think
we were, you know, around the sort of ten to
twelve mark, which as a CEO, like ten to twelve
people is too many direct reports and so there needs
to be some kind of structure. But I have huge
regrets about those decisions because I think, you know, as
you've highlighted, they didn't lead to positive behaviors. I also
(06:27):
think that you know, what happened in the middle of
the year, we had a change of leadership, and I
know that that was really hard.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
For you, yeah, incredibly hard. I think it's natural for
new leaders to come in and we see this all
the time with organizations that we work with, with leaders
coming in and really keen to imprint something into the
organization very early on, and there can be some assumptions
(06:54):
around how you've worked before and that that will work
in the new organization. And I completely respect that need
to feel value straight up. But with inventingum, I think
the ways of working were under fire quite early with
new ways of working with new leadership, and had that
(07:17):
been at another organization, potentially it wouldn't have had so
much a resentment towards changing workplace practices. But because that's
who we are, that's our DNA, it's what we help
other organizations to do, is to work better and to
be happier and more productive.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
So when the ways of working were under.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
Fire with things like you know, the meetings culture changing
to be in line with a lot of what we
don't teach around you know, meetings going over time and
not being effective and not really having a real clear
purpose to meetings and some of these things that when
you're used to working and I think when you've been
(07:59):
you know, so intense about the practices that we've put
into place, that that was a really confronting place to be,
and I think it led to a lot of people
being offside from the very go. And you know, it's
very hard for a leader to then pull everything back
after that has been the case.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
It is hard to rebuild trust once trust has been lost. Yeah,
I know a couple of things that I found quite
hard is Firstly, and it's something that we've heard other
leaders say in our own research and inventium, but I
had this really acute fear of just like what if
(08:41):
I say the wrong thing and what if I'm canceled,
Like in the same way that like high profile people
have a fear of cancelation. I felt like as a leader,
I feel like every word I said was just under critique,
and I therefore I felt like I silenced a lot
of what I wanted to say, just simply out of fear.
(09:02):
And I think that the unintended consequence of that is that,
you know, as a leader, we're told to be authentic
and be vulnerable, But because I was censoring myself so much,
I feel like I hid a lot of my experience
that might have actually been useful for people, which will
go into in terms of what happened in twenty twenty five,
because I felt that was quite a big change for me.
(09:24):
Something else I felt like it was kind of happening
before twenty twenty four, but seemed to get a lot worse,
which I think had a really negative impact on the culture,
was what I think of as triangulation where someone will have, say,
some critical feedback for someone else on the team, but
(09:45):
rather than going directly to that team member, they will
go up the chain to their manager, for example, or
just someone else that you know that might be their
confidante on the team and not necessarily their manager, and
then you have this triangle effect. And I got to say, like,
I think everyone of the team knows how much I
hate that behavior I saw that particularly happening.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Like, what was your experience of that triangulation?
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Yeah, it's interesting because you know, I wasn't privy to
a lot of the conversations at that time where a
lot of those big discussions were happening, But being in
the outside part of the team of those conversations, I
think there was times where that became a bit of
a silo in itself too, and a bit of backchat
(10:29):
around what was happening, and then in our little streams
talking about things but actually not having a clear message
up and down. And I do think when you are
seeking safety in amongst change with which I think we
were all doing and with you know, we're in fight
and flight for a lot of that time, for quite
(10:51):
a long time of thinking, oh my goodness, so we
were going to be around anymore, what's happening?
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Like what's going on here?
Speaker 4 (10:58):
Quite high pressure on every So I think that's seeking
of safety and you seek out that person that's your confidant,
and so all of those conversations happen behind. So I
certainly did, you know, have some conversations like that myself
and know that that was happening around as well. And
you know, I know we'll talk about the future state,
but I can. I was reflecting on this last night
(11:21):
around how different it is where those conversations are just
aired straight away and nipped in the bud, compared to
some of those ones that were swirling around. Yeah, it's
a hard one because I think under that pressure, that's
what we automatically do is to go to that safety.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
So yeah, interesting during that.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Time, Yeah, it's so funny how the most instinctive thing
to do is also the least constructive thing to do.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Absolutely coming up.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Ali shares what pushed her to quietly start browsing on Seek,
the moment that began to rebuild trust between us, and
the day everything finally broke, an ugly cryphone call that
changed how we work together. If you're looking for more
(12:10):
tips to improve the way you work can Live. I
write a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered
that have helped me personally. You can sign up for
that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot Com. Tell
me about getting on Seek, Allie.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Yes, I was on Seek for a few weeks.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
I was very open when we had that final discussion
about what's going on, and I felt this incredible weight
on me actually of like it's not me really to
be doing, you know, not voicing how I'm feeling and
not being transparent.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
I'm very transparent.
Speaker 4 (12:50):
Person, so I feel like I had this incredible burden
on me, and I remember that moment.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
I've said to you, by.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
The way, I've been looking at other jobs and feeling
like sorry, but yeah, it was you know, I know
that other people were and I thought, you know, there
was a point at which I thought, potentially, maybe I
won't be around, Maybe my head's on the chopping block,
maybe the company's not going to be around.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Maybe this is a chance.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
You know, there were so many unknowns, and I think
also I was so burnt out with what was going on.
There was an incredible amount of you know, we were
all working very long hours, but there was a lot
of that incivility in the in the team, of like
not working cohesively, and so I think at that point
(13:37):
I started looking, and you know, I looked around for
something that I had never looked for, which was pay.
I thought, if I'm going to be this miserable, I'm
going to look for a high paying, miserable job.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
So looking for you know, leadership.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
Positions here, and I just thought, because I'm so values driven,
I was like, this isn't me, Like, this isn't what
I want to be doing. So I think that did
lead to my decision eventually to stay and to help
rebuild what I really valued and knew was the DNA
of Inventium.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
But yeah, at the time, it was looking for direction.
I guess as well.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
In the I really didn't have any direction in the
uncertainty of all the change.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Building trust I know was really important, and I think
it's fair to say there were probably a few moments
for you where where trust was built between the two
of us, because as context, we didn't have a lot
to do with each other for probably your first I
don't know, six to nine months at Inventium, and I
(14:47):
know that one key moment for you was in August
last year where you were credited in a particular well
being surveyed the GLWS, the GLWS which stands for the
Global Leader Leadorship Well Being Survey, and I think we
were thinking of using it with clients, and that led
(15:09):
to me just being a guinea pig. And you've done
many debriefs in this survey. Can you tell me what
happened on that day where we got together and we
got together in person feed to debrief me on my results?
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Yeah? I remember.
Speaker 4 (15:24):
So the survey in itself is very thorough and it
goes through all aspects of work and home life, so
you know, it's an incredibly vulnerable position for you to
put yourself in. So I was quite aware of the
fact that we hadn't necessarily built up that trust as well,
And I remember at one point when we started diving
(15:45):
in and you said, I don't know how much to
give because how much I need to keep my sort
of position here and that professionalism, and how much I
need to give over to the survey and these results
and being open and honest, and and you said, I'm
just going to go for it because I'm only going
to get out what I put in.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
And at that moment, I think.
Speaker 4 (16:09):
It just opened up vulnerability for you, vulnerability for me
as well, to just be present with you with that,
And I think that moment was a real starting point
for that really strong trust that then continued.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
To go to where we are today.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
But yeah, that moment, I think had you been guarded
through that and not really shared openly and honestly.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
I would have known and I would have been like, Okay,
this is just us.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
Now, we're just going to skirt around the edges as
we all have been doing for six months. But I
think that really showed great faith in me and absolutely
more faith in you. From my perspective as well.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
I know that one of the hardest parts of the
year was when retrenchments were happening, and you know, I
mean retrenchments are just awful for the person that is
losing their job. I've never been through it myself, but
I've had close friends go through it and have seen
just like what that experience is like for several people
(17:11):
that are really dear to me. And it's also if
you're a leader with even an ounce of empathy, which
most leaders are, it's a really hard and awful decision
to make. And I would say those decisions that I
had to make were preceded by months, literally months of
sleepless nights going there must be an alternative. And I
(17:32):
know for you it was really hard because some of
the people involved were people you were very close to.
And I'd love to hear about how those moments, again,
like on the topic of trust, that I was able
to do that consciously or unconsciously in a way that
helped us build our relationship.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
Yeah, I think this was a really pivotal moment. As
you know, I was in quite a bit of grief
land this point of time. You know how I managed
to get an ounce of work done.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
In that moment?
Speaker 4 (18:06):
It was Yeah, I was quite flawed. So I do
remember a moment that just really flawed me in a
good way where you know, we've been through this before
in a couple of weeks earlier, and that hit me hard.
But then when that continued to happen, it just really
(18:26):
ground me down. And I remember, unlike what probably your
instinct was, was to keep calling and to check in,
just regular consistent messaging and letting me know that you
were there without forcing it on me at a time
when I wasn't ready to talk, and then when I
(18:47):
was finally ready, I think it was a couple of
days later, whereas I just need some space. But a
couple of days later when we did actually talk, and
rather than going into justifying or you know, coming up
with anything from that you thought would help me, your
first reaction was, what do you need from me? Do
(19:08):
you need me to listen and for you to vent
or do you need me to reassure you and work
out a pathway forward here? And I've never had that
before actually from a leader, because in times of change,
I had always had leaders that had gone away, thought
about it and come back to me with what was
going to go on. So it was really different and refreshing,
(19:32):
and at that moment it also put that back on
me to reflect on where am I at with this grief?
And I think at that moment I was like, actually,
I need you to reassure me. I need us to
start working through the steps.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
What are we going to do? How are we going
to get out of this?
Speaker 4 (19:47):
And again that trust that we were able to build
and collaboration on trying to envision a different future, that
was really pivotal for me.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
I know that another pivotal point happened in the back
half of the year where you had a massive workload
because the people that had left been retrenched. You picked
up quite a lot of work and there was a
moment where another teammate threw a whole lot of work
(20:18):
on you, even though they.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Probably could have made the time to do it themselves.
Tell me about what happened there.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
Yeah, this was a real low point. I'd actually forgotten
about it till recently because I put it in the
back of my mind.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
But yeah, you're right. I was just swamped with work.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
It was the week leading up to Christmas as well,
so there's already high stakes in getting things across the line,
and had been working collaboratively and so I had thought,
we're going to get this done together across the line
and having looked in, you know, there was a message
come through that I'm not going to have time to
(20:55):
look at that. And then when I went in to
see what was taking precedent, you know whether I can
help out with that as well. We're all just hands
on deck at that moment to get things through for
clients before Christmas, and they'd chosen to go on a
client's end of year party extravaganza. And I think it
(21:16):
was two things. It was I was flawed by again
that individualistic approach to work. That is not the fundamentals
of how we work together at Inventium and especially now,
but it had become the way that we were working
with individual goals and individual priorities. But yeah, the other
(21:36):
thing was I was just I had zero capacity and
I was just thinking, what am I going to do?
I literally cannot do this. I'm going to have to
work twenty four hours a day. I think because of
all of the moments, and it was those small, consistent
moments over time, it wasn't one thing that led me
to think I really trust Samantha. It was all of
(21:57):
these check in moments and being vulnerable and honest with you.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
I decided to pick up the phone.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
You were in NUSA at the time, so it was
sort of this moment of going, I can't call her,
but I had reached the bottom and I just ugly
cried to you on the phone and I thought, you know,
I never thought I would be doing this, And yeah,
it got to that point and I was like, I
just can't do this, and you jumped on and helped
me for that day to get over it, you know,
(22:26):
to get that work done. But that was, yeah, incredibly
low point and probably a real reflection of where we
had got to as pretty much the lowest point I
think as a team.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Yeah, I remember getting that call from you because I
had taken a week of leave and I didn't expect
to be contacted, I don't think. And then yeah, when
you called me, I just remember just just I just
need to help, Like it doesn't really matter that I'm
on leave. It's like I just need to get in
(23:00):
here and help. And also I thought my knowledge of
the project is different to Allie's, and two three hours
of me doing some intense work is the equivalent to
you probably taking two days to catch up. So I
just thought that decision makes sense to me.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
I think it really set the tone as well heading
into Christmas for us to take into the next year,
because it could have ended very badly where I went
across Christmas and thought that's it for me, I'm out.
But instead that moment where we came together in crisis
(23:36):
really solidified what that was for us as a company.
I think for the next year.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Today was just part one of my chat with Ali
because we kept on talking. Next week, I'm going to
be releasing part two of our chat, where together we
unpack exactly how we set that reset button. We're going
to be talking about the off site that really changed,
the tiny rituals that rebuilt connection, and the moment I
(24:04):
realized my fear of saying the wrong thing had finally disappeared.
Make sure you hit follow wherever you listen to this
podcast to be alerted when next week's conversation drops. And
if you know someone who'd benefit hearing this pretty honest
chat about leadership, please share the episode with them. How
I Work was recorded on the traditional land of the
(24:26):
Warrangery People, part of the Cooler Nation
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