August 6, 2025 • 27 mins
Who wants to be led by someone who’s burnt out? That’s the question I asked myself in 2024 - and why I kept pushing through and pretending I was fine. Until everything nearly broke.
In part two of this interview, I’m back with psychologist and friend Sabina Read to unpack how I came out the other side of the hardest year of my professional life.
We talk about what finally pulled me out of burnout, how I rebuilt trust inside Inventium, and the ripple effects of radical transparency. I also reflect on the shadow side of long tenure, the cost of silencing my instincts, and the surprising moment I knew our culture had truly shifted.
If you’re leading a team, facing change, or quietly wondering if you’re the problem - this episode is for you.
Sabina and I discuss:
- The shift that helped me rebuild confidence after burnout
- Why tenure can quietly sabotage growth and innovation
- How I nearly missed a 7-figure opportunity (and what changed)
- The difference between radical transparency and oversharing
- What helped our team go from fractured to thriving
- Why metrics matter - but they’re not enough
- The cost of hiding how hard things really were
Key Quotes
- “Hope is not a strategy - but that’s what I was relying on.”
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Who wants to be led by someone who's burnt out.
That's what I asked myself and also what I told
myself in twenty twenty four. So I hit my burnout,
I just kept on pushing through and I nearly broke everything.
In this episode, I'm pulling back the curtain on how
I rebuilt not just Inventium's company culture, but also my
(00:25):
own confidence as a leader. I'll be sharing what finally
pulled me out of the fog, the conversations that rebuilt trust,
and how I turned one of my biggest leadership failures
into one of our company's biggest breakthroughs. And once again,
just like last week, I am joined by my incredible friend,
clinical psychologist Savina Reid. If you're leading a team, navigating change,
(00:50):
or just feeling stuck, this episode is packed with lessons
that I learned the hard way so that you don't
have to And if you miss part one, go back
and listen, because this story makes the most sense when
you hear what came before.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals,
and strategies for optimizing your day. I'm your host, doctor
Amantha Imber.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
You also shared in the article. We've talked about psychological safety,
You've talked about how you've had employees there for a
long time and tenure average tenure is very is long
compared to other organizations, which is a credit to invent him.
But with tenure can become well, you tell me, what
do you think long tenure? What are the risks of
tenure for people in an organization and culture.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Like tenure obviously has a whole host of benefits, and
I won't go into those because I think that they're
well trodden and everyone knows what they are. But tenure
also has a shadowside, and I feel like I really
experience that. In twenty twenty four, where we had very
high tenure, a ten year is actually dropped and I'm
(02:10):
quite happy about that, which might sound strange, but I
feel like the thinking is a lot fresher because of it.
What I found happening, and this was not across the board,
but on occasion, you know, I'd be talking to someone
who'd worked in the business for many, many years, and
I think i'd noticed this for a good couple of years, certainly,
like in twenty twenty three was probably when I first
(02:31):
began to be hyper aware of it, and it just
kind of continued into twenty twenty four. Is that as
someone and sometimes that someone would be me, like I
have a friend who yeah, so I would notice that
sometimes I would bring up an idea or a thought like, oh,
(02:52):
I think we should do this, and I would be
met with resistance from, you know, someone that had been
with the business for years and they'd seen all the
whole journey that we've been on over the last decade,
and they would use an experience from years ago or
data from years ago to go, well, that's not going
to work, because we tried it then and it didn't work.
(03:13):
And ironically, you know, a large part of what we
do in Inventium is innovation consulting and capability building, and
it's exactly what we teach our clients not to fall
into the trap of that we tried it last year
and it didn't work. And it was quite scary for
me to realize that that was happening within Inventium. Again,
not across the board, but there were just quite a
(03:35):
few instances where I had been experiencing it and it
was happening for a couple of years, and as I say,
it's the shadow side of tenure that is really I mean,
like God, if it's happening at Inventium where we're talking
about innovation every day, I mean, it can happen everywhere,
and it is so detrimental to growth and improvements and
(03:58):
new things happening.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
And I've seen this less organizations and coach different individuals
who are newer, so not the longer tenured people who say,
I thought I was brought on board here to bring
fresh insights and new perspectives, but whenever I raise them,
everyone says, no, that's not how we do it, or
that hasn't worked before. And it's also we're talking about tenure,
you and I. But I also would use the word legacy.
(04:21):
Sometimes long term employees are so attached to the legacy
or a brand of what used to be in the heyday,
they can't let go of that, and they do a
disservice to the new voices and the new ideas that
come to the point where the new ideas and the
new voices feel unheard or undervalued or they never said that.
(04:42):
The dial shift on their thoughts or their contribution, and
they leave, and so then you end up sitting with
the same tenured crew sort of stirring in the same pot,
and you're not going to get not just innovation, but
you're not going to get any shift to a it's
change or growth or new ways of being or doing things.
(05:03):
So I think we have to be careful when new
people come on board. And another parallel, I always like
to think outside that. You know, he's another therapy example.
One of the things that we know about research in
the best therapist I'm talking about set of clinical psychological
settings is not of course rapport is the number one
is the number one efficacy factor in therapy, but how
(05:24):
long a therapist has trained for it actually doesn't have
a huge bearing always on the outcomes. And sometimes newer
therapists are open and curious and they want to try
new things, and that can bring fresh perspectives for the
client as well. And I think that's the same in business.
So again with regards to age or even experience, a new,
(05:49):
fresh bright employee might have ideas that no one's ever
thought about before, and when they speak up, everyone's like, well,
you know, she's sort of the junior or the grad
or what would she or he know, Let's not judge
someone by how long they've worked a in the organization
or even b full stop yes money.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
I was thinking about one idea I had that got
squashed down in twenty twenty three, and I was a
pretty early adopter of.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Genai and you were trail blazing.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
You're getting two thumbs up from me on that.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Now, thanks being so like've been using it multiple times
a day for two and a half years, sin we
five since since I was in the womb. But in
all serious it's like, you know, really since the launch
of chat JPT in late twenty twenty two and in
twenty twenty three, I thought.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
I feel like there's an opportunity here for Inventium.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
You know, we're known for productivity, and I was certainly
like dramatically changing my own productivity through using Genai. And
my own productivity was like, you know, pretty high, but
it was just being completely transformed. And you know, I
remember I said to a couple of members of the team,
so I think we should like try something around this
Genai stuff. I think that there's something really here. And
(07:01):
I did this half hearted experiment and then it was
just poo pood and then I just thought, okay, I'll
just shut up. But then the midway through gosh, no,
it would have been towards the tail end of twenty
twenty four, because that's when we really launched some pretty
major GENAI offerings in terms of capability building, and I
(07:22):
was back in the CEO role. You know, I just
felt so strongly about it that there was an opportunity
there for Inventium to you know, really do some great
work in that space. And you know, I now look
at you know, how those experiments have turned out, and
I mean it's now, you know, about a quarter to
a third of our company's revenue, you know, just in
a six month period of really going Okay, let's run
(07:44):
some more experiments here, and let's really back this. And
I kind of think, gosh, like, imagine if I was
still in a similar sort of mindset of how I
was in twenty twenty three, this huge opportunity just wouldn't
have happened.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
So there's something there. I know, your AI master Class.
I'm going to give a unpaid shout out. This is
not a sponsored comment, because I've done your AI Masterclass
and it's phenomenal, and I think so many people are
fearful or they think maybe I won't have to look
at it in that amount of depth, and yet there's
not one person on the planet that wouldn't benefit from
(08:18):
your masterclass in whatever work they do. It's interesting that
you had that idea and then is it back on
the likability slash acceptance piece that you back down or
was it because you weren't in the role of appointed
anointed CEO? What was it that had you?
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Yeah, I think it's a really it's a fine balance
when you're the founder of a company but you're not
the CEO. And at the points in time where we've
had a CEO and I haven't been in that role,
I've been very mindful of how hard or not hard
to push my ideas because ultimately, I've hired a CEO
for a reason, and personally, that's really hard because as
(08:59):
the founder, I want my business to be successful. It's
like my business baby. But I'm more so mindful that
you'll point to CEO to give them as much autonomy
as you know as you can.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
That makes a lot of sense, and I know there'd
be a lot of people listening. I've worked with a
lot of organizations and startups who have exactly that kind
of rub and it's very hard to let go of
your baby, and yet you are appointing someone to manage
and drive in different ways to you, with new ideas
and fresh perspectives. And I'm thinking of something that I
think you and I have talked about this off the airwaves,
(09:36):
Gibor Mattei's work on connection versus authenticity. It's one of
the greatest dichotomies that resonates with me or spectrums. I
guess it's if not a dichotomy, and it's coming back
in what we're talking about now. Gaboard talks about how
we're hardwired to be authentically who we are. We're also
(09:56):
hardwired to be connected to others. And in the vein
of what we're discussing now, a CEO or a leader
or a manager is wanting to be that connected to
their people in whatever way that's meaningful to them. But
if they're not authentically bringing their own thoughts and ideas
to the table, that's going to come at a cost.
(10:19):
And the connection piece is not going to make up
for losing your voice and the authenticity piece. I think
where some leaders or some humans go wrong as we
say I'm being authentic and then they just let rip
under the guise of but it's just authentically me, so
I can say or do whatever I like because I'm
just speaking my truth. That phrase is a red herring
(10:41):
for me. Speaking my truth doesn't mean that whatever comes
after I say that is just a free for all
with no consequences, particularly as a leader. I want to
move on because you've touched so many important points and
we haven't covered them all. Another one in the article
that you talked about was the emotional low point forgetting
that storms part us. So when you were in it,
(11:03):
you felt, I guess, helpless, stuck and you couldn't see
any blue skies ahead. So tell me a bit about that.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
I remember I was so stuck, and I was so
also falling victim to catastrophization, which I'm sure everyone experiences
at certain points, and the biggest catastrophe for me I
think that I kept coming back to is what if
the business doesn't survive? Like what if this business that
(11:31):
has been going for, you know, seventeen years at the
time doesn't make it through this storm, like this really
hard financial environment that we're in, the different you know,
internal dynamics that were going on.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
What if we don't survive?
Speaker 3 (11:48):
I want to pick up on that because you do
talk often about catastrophizing and you're aware of it. As
you say, it's a really common practice. You're non certainly
alone there, but you are aware of it, and yet
you still went to a worst case scenario. So, just
from a learning perspective, if the business didn't survive, this
is a hypothetical now, so hopefully it's not retraumatizing. If
(12:12):
the business didn't survive, what would that have looked like?
Because I'm sharing this more from a hope for your
listeners that sometimes we need to explore what we anticipate
as being the bottom of the barrel, the bottom of
the spiral, to be able to realize that we can
tolerate it, We can find new new ways to move
through it, we can find different solutions. So what would
(12:34):
that have meant to you? Because that was you were
You couldn't even look at it.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
Yeah, there are a couple of things going on for me.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
First, I thought, you know, in my lowest moments, like
what if I have to pull the pin on this business.
That means having conversations with everyone on the team to
say you no longer have a job, and to say
it made me feel stick in the stomach, is an understatement,
like just the thought of that conversation. You know, I
(13:01):
take employing people and paying people's salaries and creating like,
you know, a good work environment, and you know, my
ideal is to create the best place anyone has ever
worked that comes to Inventium, and I take that so seriously.
Which is also why I think twenty twenty four was
really hard, because I don't think, you know, for some
of the team, it was at that point in time,
(13:22):
the best place they'd ever worked, even though it might
have been previously. So there's that because if a business dies,
then you don't employ anyone anymore. So that was the
first thing. And then the second thing was it actually
wasn't as bad. Like I'm like, who am I without Inventium,
And I'm.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
Like, well, I know who I am.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
You know, I still have lots of other projects outside
of Inventium, like this podcast, I write books, so to
keynote speaking, you know, I have full faith that I
would be absolutely fine, But I don't know. I also
think to close down a business that feels like a
really big failure, and it feels like a personal failure,
(14:01):
that feels very scary.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Yeah, and it makes sense and I think the order
that you've shared those is not in consequential or insignificant.
That it's about the care of others. And it's the
same reason that you were struggling that we discussed at
the start of this conversation about not wanting to make
people redundant. So you don't want to make one person redundant,
and you are in a state of freeze over that
(14:25):
you certainly don't want to make all people redundant. Yeah,
so the care of their well being, their livelihood, their meaning,
their purpose there belonging, all the things that they get
from working at inventium. That makes sense that you don't
want to go there. You know rationally that you can
do other things. But I think that's pretty loud, and
I think that's probably true for many business, small business owners,
(14:45):
particularly this sense of responsibility.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
We will be back soon.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
And if you're thinking, yep, I've been there, burnt out,
doubting myself, trying to hold it all together, keep listening
because in the second half I share what actually he
helped me turn things around, like the real stuff, radical honesty,
rebuilding trust, and the moment I knew we were finally
back on track.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
If you lead a team, or.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
If you've ever felt like you're faking it, what's coming
up next might hit home in the best possible way.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
If you're looking for more tips to improve the way
you work can live. I write a short weekly newsletter
that contains tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally.
You can sign up for that at Amantha dot com.
That's Amantha dot com.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
But then you started to realize, no, this is not
a permanent situation. And what happened.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
I think it really struck me in January when you
know the team and there had been a lot of change,
but the team as is, you know, the team for
twenty twenty five and hopefully many years beyond.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
You know, we got.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Together for a couple of days and it's like it shifted,
Like I remember the last time we were together as
a team face to face, and it was really different.
And when we got together and you know, in twenty
twenty four and in twenty fwfty five, I just remember
like walking into that and walking away from those two
days going ah, we're back, We're back to what is
(16:26):
the inventium that I know and love, And it was
such like a powerful, beautiful realization and to just like
think back over you know, twenty twenty four, and really
twenty twenty three wasn't fantastic either, but you know, I
think that was probably why twenty twenty four was so intense,
because it had been building up for more than you know.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
Just nos off January twenty twenty four and it was.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Like, Wow, it's back, it's back, Like this is amazing,
and I can't believe it's kind of happened so quickly
in the sense that you know, the last team catch
up was only a few months prior to that, and
it's like, wow, things feel really different now.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
And not due to the passage of time, but because
what you did with that time.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
Yeah, I would like to think, so, yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
One hundred percent. And why would a business not ebb
and flow like a human or a relationship or a
family unit, or a health or you know, every other
part of our life. Why would it stay fixed? And
if it did stay fixed, what would it say about
the organization and the culture.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Well, I think what's different about business is that we've
got metrics that we're tracking, Like you know, we're tracking revenue,
we're tracking profit, we're tracking engagement, we're tracking all sorts
of things, and you know, there are indicators of how
well are we going, how good is the business health?
But I think about say relationships or parenting, and there's
(17:52):
no scoreboard. So I think, you know, when things go
off track, it's a little bit murkier, like you feel it,
but in business you feel it, but you also see
the metrics.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
So and health I guess as well. You know, there
are so many available metrics for our health that we
can measure, but often which is not to which is
not too because we're fearful. What is if I measure
something and I find out something that doesn't sit well
with me, Yeah, well that overwhelms me. Yeah, but I
think that the story here is, yes, metrics matter, but
(18:25):
even with some basic metrics, you know, organizationally or personally,
when something's going off course. Yeah, and it's not the
passage of time that will course correct you definitely not,
but many people hope it is. Wow, that was a
few weeks or a few months ago now, so you
know things should have settled.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, And like I had my hope strategy at the
start of twenty twenty four, just hoping, ah, things will change,
things will change.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
But then you changed them. There's definitely a message here
for listeners and for all of us to be aware
of the fears, the catastrophizing, the freeze, whatever the response is,
and that's okay in the moment. It's kind of a
band aid that keeps us safe while we're floundering, and
then we need to rip the band aid off and
(19:13):
make moves to shift in different directions. One of the
other areas that you talked about was radical transparency, ownership rebuilding,
and it was about repairing trust and culture, and you
mentioned being radically transparent with your team. What do you
mean by that? Some of these buzzwords and catchphrases, but
(19:34):
what did it mean for you?
Speaker 1 (19:35):
For me?
Speaker 2 (19:36):
I had certainly spent the first few months of twenty
twenty four trying to hide from my team just how
hard I was finding things because because I felt like
they would lose confidence in me, and they would lose
confidence in the business. I think, you know, if anyone
(19:57):
knew like just how low and like depleted and then
you know, gradually burnt out, I was like, who wants
to be led by someone like that? And who would
have faith that they're making good decisions? And I think
that's what was going through my head. And I remember,
(20:18):
you know, when I did share more publicly my burnout experience,
and I think I did that maybe like when the
worst had passed, like maybe I don't know, July, August,
September last year, something like that. I remember someone in
my team told me that someone else in my team again,
like all these back channel conversations had questioned like why
(20:41):
wasn't I just honest at the time, And you know,
I thought, that's interesting that they feel that way, and
I felt like it wasn't an option for me, and
also it wouldn't have served the team particularly well to
know where I was at. And I felt like I
just had to keep pushing through and I would make
it through and then I could share it.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
But I didn't feel like I could share it at
the time.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
And I remember thinking, isn't that interesting that they said that,
And isn't that interesting that they didn't give the feedback
to me directly?
Speaker 3 (21:13):
And also is it possible that they were sort of
in tune with your burnout anyway and your state of
mind without you putting words to it.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
I'm sure they must have been.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
I mean, so it's a false sense of security that
we're like, well, I haven't shared it, so they don't
know it.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
Hmm, yeah, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
And I think I gradually began to realize that, and
I think I started sharing more and more and again,
like as of this year, you know, and again like
I you know, I think back to, you know, as
early as January in the off site, there were things
that I shared with the team then that I just
never would have thought to share, you know, months prior.
(21:57):
So I've become, I guess, very aware of like sharing
as much as I can. You know, obviously, it's hard
when you're a leader because you know a lot of
things that are confidential and you can't reach anyone's confidentiality,
even though if only you could, it would create much
needed context for like some of the things that you've done.
But I'm really aware of just going I just need
(22:20):
to be as honest as I can be.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
When do you think we overshare as opposed to radically share?
What's the difference.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
I feel like oversharing is more in the person that
is sharing's best interest. I feel like it's almost a
narcissistic kind of thing to do. I feel like that
word is so overused but you know, oversharing just feels
like I just want some attention and sympathy and so forth,
Whereas you know, I think what I try to do
is go, look, I want to be honest, but I
(22:51):
want to be honest in a way that serves my team.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
And I think, you know, the narcissist is a pointy
end of oversharing. Sometimes people overshare because they're trying to
make sense of their own experience, and to do that,
they talk it out and they're not thinking about who
they're sharing it with. One minute, they're in the kitchenette,
then they're on an email, then they're on a phone call,
and they're just sharing and sharing and sharing. So that
(23:14):
may not come from a need for adulation validation.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Yeah, absolutely, and it might also just come from I
just want some support and I need to be seen.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Sense checking as well, I'm feeling this, I'm feeling this,
you're almost checking is it your experience as well? In
a casual, non formal setting, you're looking for people to say, oh,
that's how i'm feeling as well, or what you know,
that's not what the team is feeling. So this is
this is on you. So I think it's a really difficult,
and I think a lot of leaders struggle with that.
(23:47):
And you know, cute us to you, Amantha for sharing.
You've shared every time we've got on the mic, certainly
when we're not on the mic, but generally behind the mic.
You share so much that I know Foreshore, so many
listeners who run businesses, who manage people, whether they're a
business owner or not, well have had the same experiences,
(24:08):
some of the same thoughts, some of the same fears,
and we're too frightened to share them. As you say,
we don't want to be judged as a failure, and
we wouldn't want someone We don't want to jeopardize our
business because we're sharing some of our vulnerabilities. And yet,
as Brene Brown has said for one thousand years, you
know it's around being vulnerable that builds connection and that
(24:33):
hopefully drives business and performance, including new business, because you've
walked in the shoes you've experienced. So if I'm a
corporate client coming to you, I know that you're not
working with me from a place of holier than now.
I have all the answers. You know what it's like
to lead a team, you know what it's like to
manage budgets. You know what it's like to work in
(24:56):
tough times, you know what it's like to have psychologically
unsafe moments or periods as a team, and you know
how to get it back on track. What better offering
is there in the line of work that you're in.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yeah, Look, I mean, like for me being on the
other side of the microphone when I'm used to playing
the role that you have played today and talking about
this kind of stuff like, it's not like super fun
and light like, it's hard stuff. It's hard stuff to share,
it's hard stuff to reflect on. And so for me,
what I hope is that firstly that people listening that
(25:29):
have gone through similar things that I've described today go wow,
I'm not alone, And hopefully there's a little bit of
gold in there to either help people get through and
see the light or maybe something that they now think
maybe I could do that differently.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
I think I'd be surprised if that's not the case.
It's a joy to be in each other's lives this
kind of conversation. It's not joyous, as you say, but
it's real and it's the experience of so many in
their working lives. So I think it matters, and you
know thanks for being so open on behalf of your listeners.
I know that you and I are open outside of here,
(26:10):
but to do this publicly as a business owner, I
think is big and a credit to you, and it's
pretty inspiring and two thumbs up from me.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Thank you so much for listening to this special two
part episode. I hope it gave you some new insights
or at the very least, helped you feel a little
less alone in the messy parts of leadership. If you
want to hear more about what burnout looked like for
me behind the scenes and the tools that helped me
crawl out of it, you will love a conversation I
(26:43):
had with Sabina a few months ago. It's a deep
dive into the personal side of burnout and how I
slowly found my way through. There's a link to that
in the show notes. Oh and if this episode resonated,
I'd love it if you shared it with someone who
might need to hear it. See you next time on
How I Work.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
If you like.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Today's show, make sure you get follow on your podcast
app to be alerted when new episodes drop. How I
Work was recorded on the Traditional Land of the Warrenery people,
part of the Kulin Nation.
Who wants to be led by someone who's burnt out.
That's what I asked myself and also what I told
myself in twenty twenty four. So I hit my burnout,
I just kept on pushing through and I nearly broke everything.
In this episode, I'm pulling back the curtain on how
I rebuilt not just Inventium's company culture, but also my
(00:25):
own confidence as a leader. I'll be sharing what finally
pulled me out of the fog, the conversations that rebuilt trust,
and how I turned one of my biggest leadership failures
into one of our company's biggest breakthroughs. And once again,
just like last week, I am joined by my incredible friend,
clinical psychologist Savina Reid. If you're leading a team, navigating change,
(00:50):
or just feeling stuck, this episode is packed with lessons
that I learned the hard way so that you don't
have to And if you miss part one, go back
and listen, because this story makes the most sense when
you hear what came before.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals,
and strategies for optimizing your day. I'm your host, doctor
Amantha Imber.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
You also shared in the article. We've talked about psychological safety,
You've talked about how you've had employees there for a
long time and tenure average tenure is very is long
compared to other organizations, which is a credit to invent him.
But with tenure can become well, you tell me, what
do you think long tenure? What are the risks of
tenure for people in an organization and culture.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Like tenure obviously has a whole host of benefits, and
I won't go into those because I think that they're
well trodden and everyone knows what they are. But tenure
also has a shadowside, and I feel like I really
experience that. In twenty twenty four, where we had very
high tenure, a ten year is actually dropped and I'm
(02:10):
quite happy about that, which might sound strange, but I
feel like the thinking is a lot fresher because of it.
What I found happening, and this was not across the board,
but on occasion, you know, I'd be talking to someone
who'd worked in the business for many, many years, and
I think i'd noticed this for a good couple of years, certainly,
like in twenty twenty three was probably when I first
(02:31):
began to be hyper aware of it, and it just
kind of continued into twenty twenty four. Is that as
someone and sometimes that someone would be me, like I
have a friend who yeah, so I would notice that
sometimes I would bring up an idea or a thought like, oh,
(02:52):
I think we should do this, and I would be
met with resistance from, you know, someone that had been
with the business for years and they'd seen all the
whole journey that we've been on over the last decade,
and they would use an experience from years ago or
data from years ago to go, well, that's not going
to work, because we tried it then and it didn't work.
(03:13):
And ironically, you know, a large part of what we
do in Inventium is innovation consulting and capability building, and
it's exactly what we teach our clients not to fall
into the trap of that we tried it last year
and it didn't work. And it was quite scary for
me to realize that that was happening within Inventium. Again,
not across the board, but there were just quite a
(03:35):
few instances where I had been experiencing it and it
was happening for a couple of years, and as I say,
it's the shadow side of tenure that is really I mean,
like God, if it's happening at Inventium where we're talking
about innovation every day, I mean, it can happen everywhere,
and it is so detrimental to growth and improvements and
(03:58):
new things happening.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
And I've seen this less organizations and coach different individuals
who are newer, so not the longer tenured people who say,
I thought I was brought on board here to bring
fresh insights and new perspectives, but whenever I raise them,
everyone says, no, that's not how we do it, or
that hasn't worked before. And it's also we're talking about tenure,
you and I. But I also would use the word legacy.
(04:21):
Sometimes long term employees are so attached to the legacy
or a brand of what used to be in the heyday,
they can't let go of that, and they do a
disservice to the new voices and the new ideas that
come to the point where the new ideas and the
new voices feel unheard or undervalued or they never said that.
(04:42):
The dial shift on their thoughts or their contribution, and
they leave, and so then you end up sitting with
the same tenured crew sort of stirring in the same pot,
and you're not going to get not just innovation, but
you're not going to get any shift to a it's
change or growth or new ways of being or doing things.
(05:03):
So I think we have to be careful when new
people come on board. And another parallel, I always like
to think outside that. You know, he's another therapy example.
One of the things that we know about research in
the best therapist I'm talking about set of clinical psychological
settings is not of course rapport is the number one
is the number one efficacy factor in therapy, but how
(05:24):
long a therapist has trained for it actually doesn't have
a huge bearing always on the outcomes. And sometimes newer
therapists are open and curious and they want to try
new things, and that can bring fresh perspectives for the
client as well. And I think that's the same in business.
So again with regards to age or even experience, a new,
(05:49):
fresh bright employee might have ideas that no one's ever
thought about before, and when they speak up, everyone's like, well,
you know, she's sort of the junior or the grad
or what would she or he know, Let's not judge
someone by how long they've worked a in the organization
or even b full stop yes money.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
I was thinking about one idea I had that got
squashed down in twenty twenty three, and I was a
pretty early adopter of.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Genai and you were trail blazing.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
You're getting two thumbs up from me on that.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Now, thanks being so like've been using it multiple times
a day for two and a half years, sin we
five since since I was in the womb. But in
all serious it's like, you know, really since the launch
of chat JPT in late twenty twenty two and in
twenty twenty three, I thought.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
I feel like there's an opportunity here for Inventium.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
You know, we're known for productivity, and I was certainly
like dramatically changing my own productivity through using Genai. And
my own productivity was like, you know, pretty high, but
it was just being completely transformed. And you know, I
remember I said to a couple of members of the team,
so I think we should like try something around this
Genai stuff. I think that there's something really here. And
(07:01):
I did this half hearted experiment and then it was
just poo pood and then I just thought, okay, I'll
just shut up. But then the midway through gosh, no,
it would have been towards the tail end of twenty
twenty four, because that's when we really launched some pretty
major GENAI offerings in terms of capability building, and I
(07:22):
was back in the CEO role. You know, I just
felt so strongly about it that there was an opportunity
there for Inventium to you know, really do some great
work in that space. And you know, I now look
at you know, how those experiments have turned out, and
I mean it's now, you know, about a quarter to
a third of our company's revenue, you know, just in
a six month period of really going Okay, let's run
(07:44):
some more experiments here, and let's really back this. And
I kind of think, gosh, like, imagine if I was
still in a similar sort of mindset of how I
was in twenty twenty three, this huge opportunity just wouldn't
have happened.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
So there's something there. I know, your AI master Class.
I'm going to give a unpaid shout out. This is
not a sponsored comment, because I've done your AI Masterclass
and it's phenomenal, and I think so many people are
fearful or they think maybe I won't have to look
at it in that amount of depth, and yet there's
not one person on the planet that wouldn't benefit from
(08:18):
your masterclass in whatever work they do. It's interesting that
you had that idea and then is it back on
the likability slash acceptance piece that you back down or
was it because you weren't in the role of appointed
anointed CEO? What was it that had you?
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Yeah, I think it's a really it's a fine balance
when you're the founder of a company but you're not
the CEO. And at the points in time where we've
had a CEO and I haven't been in that role,
I've been very mindful of how hard or not hard
to push my ideas because ultimately, I've hired a CEO
for a reason, and personally, that's really hard because as
(08:59):
the founder, I want my business to be successful. It's
like my business baby. But I'm more so mindful that
you'll point to CEO to give them as much autonomy
as you know as you can.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
That makes a lot of sense, and I know there'd
be a lot of people listening. I've worked with a
lot of organizations and startups who have exactly that kind
of rub and it's very hard to let go of
your baby, and yet you are appointing someone to manage
and drive in different ways to you, with new ideas
and fresh perspectives. And I'm thinking of something that I
think you and I have talked about this off the airwaves,
(09:36):
Gibor Mattei's work on connection versus authenticity. It's one of
the greatest dichotomies that resonates with me or spectrums. I
guess it's if not a dichotomy, and it's coming back
in what we're talking about now. Gaboard talks about how
we're hardwired to be authentically who we are. We're also
(09:56):
hardwired to be connected to others. And in the vein
of what we're discussing now, a CEO or a leader
or a manager is wanting to be that connected to
their people in whatever way that's meaningful to them. But
if they're not authentically bringing their own thoughts and ideas
to the table, that's going to come at a cost.
(10:19):
And the connection piece is not going to make up
for losing your voice and the authenticity piece. I think
where some leaders or some humans go wrong as we
say I'm being authentic and then they just let rip
under the guise of but it's just authentically me, so
I can say or do whatever I like because I'm
just speaking my truth. That phrase is a red herring
(10:41):
for me. Speaking my truth doesn't mean that whatever comes
after I say that is just a free for all
with no consequences, particularly as a leader. I want to
move on because you've touched so many important points and
we haven't covered them all. Another one in the article
that you talked about was the emotional low point forgetting
that storms part us. So when you were in it,
(11:03):
you felt, I guess, helpless, stuck and you couldn't see
any blue skies ahead. So tell me a bit about that.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
I remember I was so stuck, and I was so
also falling victim to catastrophization, which I'm sure everyone experiences
at certain points, and the biggest catastrophe for me I
think that I kept coming back to is what if
the business doesn't survive? Like what if this business that
(11:31):
has been going for, you know, seventeen years at the
time doesn't make it through this storm, like this really
hard financial environment that we're in, the different you know,
internal dynamics that were going on.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
What if we don't survive?
Speaker 3 (11:48):
I want to pick up on that because you do
talk often about catastrophizing and you're aware of it. As
you say, it's a really common practice. You're non certainly
alone there, but you are aware of it, and yet
you still went to a worst case scenario. So, just
from a learning perspective, if the business didn't survive, this
is a hypothetical now, so hopefully it's not retraumatizing. If
(12:12):
the business didn't survive, what would that have looked like?
Because I'm sharing this more from a hope for your
listeners that sometimes we need to explore what we anticipate
as being the bottom of the barrel, the bottom of
the spiral, to be able to realize that we can
tolerate it, We can find new new ways to move
through it, we can find different solutions. So what would
(12:34):
that have meant to you? Because that was you were
You couldn't even look at it.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
Yeah, there are a couple of things going on for me.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
First, I thought, you know, in my lowest moments, like
what if I have to pull the pin on this business.
That means having conversations with everyone on the team to
say you no longer have a job, and to say
it made me feel stick in the stomach, is an understatement,
like just the thought of that conversation. You know, I
(13:01):
take employing people and paying people's salaries and creating like,
you know, a good work environment, and you know, my
ideal is to create the best place anyone has ever
worked that comes to Inventium, and I take that so seriously.
Which is also why I think twenty twenty four was
really hard, because I don't think, you know, for some
of the team, it was at that point in time,
(13:22):
the best place they'd ever worked, even though it might
have been previously. So there's that because if a business dies,
then you don't employ anyone anymore. So that was the
first thing. And then the second thing was it actually
wasn't as bad. Like I'm like, who am I without Inventium,
And I'm.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
Like, well, I know who I am.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
You know, I still have lots of other projects outside
of Inventium, like this podcast, I write books, so to
keynote speaking, you know, I have full faith that I
would be absolutely fine, But I don't know. I also
think to close down a business that feels like a
really big failure, and it feels like a personal failure,
(14:01):
that feels very scary.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Yeah, and it makes sense and I think the order
that you've shared those is not in consequential or insignificant.
That it's about the care of others. And it's the
same reason that you were struggling that we discussed at
the start of this conversation about not wanting to make
people redundant. So you don't want to make one person redundant,
and you are in a state of freeze over that
(14:25):
you certainly don't want to make all people redundant. Yeah,
so the care of their well being, their livelihood, their meaning,
their purpose there belonging, all the things that they get
from working at inventium. That makes sense that you don't
want to go there. You know rationally that you can
do other things. But I think that's pretty loud, and
I think that's probably true for many business, small business owners,
(14:45):
particularly this sense of responsibility.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
We will be back soon.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
And if you're thinking, yep, I've been there, burnt out,
doubting myself, trying to hold it all together, keep listening
because in the second half I share what actually he
helped me turn things around, like the real stuff, radical honesty,
rebuilding trust, and the moment I knew we were finally
back on track.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
If you lead a team, or.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
If you've ever felt like you're faking it, what's coming
up next might hit home in the best possible way.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
If you're looking for more tips to improve the way
you work can live. I write a short weekly newsletter
that contains tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally.
You can sign up for that at Amantha dot com.
That's Amantha dot com.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
But then you started to realize, no, this is not
a permanent situation. And what happened.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
I think it really struck me in January when you
know the team and there had been a lot of change,
but the team as is, you know, the team for
twenty twenty five and hopefully many years beyond.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
You know, we got.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Together for a couple of days and it's like it shifted,
Like I remember the last time we were together as
a team face to face, and it was really different.
And when we got together and you know, in twenty
twenty four and in twenty fwfty five, I just remember
like walking into that and walking away from those two
days going ah, we're back, We're back to what is
(16:26):
the inventium that I know and love, And it was
such like a powerful, beautiful realization and to just like
think back over you know, twenty twenty four, and really
twenty twenty three wasn't fantastic either, but you know, I
think that was probably why twenty twenty four was so intense,
because it had been building up for more than you know.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
Just nos off January twenty twenty four and it was.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Like, Wow, it's back, it's back, Like this is amazing,
and I can't believe it's kind of happened so quickly
in the sense that you know, the last team catch
up was only a few months prior to that, and
it's like, wow, things feel really different now.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
And not due to the passage of time, but because
what you did with that time.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
Yeah, I would like to think, so, yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
One hundred percent. And why would a business not ebb
and flow like a human or a relationship or a
family unit, or a health or you know, every other
part of our life. Why would it stay fixed? And
if it did stay fixed, what would it say about
the organization and the culture.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Well, I think what's different about business is that we've
got metrics that we're tracking, Like you know, we're tracking revenue,
we're tracking profit, we're tracking engagement, we're tracking all sorts
of things, and you know, there are indicators of how
well are we going, how good is the business health?
But I think about say relationships or parenting, and there's
(17:52):
no scoreboard. So I think, you know, when things go
off track, it's a little bit murkier, like you feel it,
but in business you feel it, but you also see
the metrics.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
So and health I guess as well. You know, there
are so many available metrics for our health that we
can measure, but often which is not to which is
not too because we're fearful. What is if I measure
something and I find out something that doesn't sit well
with me, Yeah, well that overwhelms me. Yeah, but I
think that the story here is, yes, metrics matter, but
(18:25):
even with some basic metrics, you know, organizationally or personally,
when something's going off course. Yeah, and it's not the
passage of time that will course correct you definitely not,
but many people hope it is. Wow, that was a
few weeks or a few months ago now, so you
know things should have settled.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, And like I had my hope strategy at the
start of twenty twenty four, just hoping, ah, things will change,
things will change.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
But then you changed them. There's definitely a message here
for listeners and for all of us to be aware
of the fears, the catastrophizing, the freeze, whatever the response is,
and that's okay in the moment. It's kind of a
band aid that keeps us safe while we're floundering, and
then we need to rip the band aid off and
(19:13):
make moves to shift in different directions. One of the
other areas that you talked about was radical transparency, ownership rebuilding,
and it was about repairing trust and culture, and you
mentioned being radically transparent with your team. What do you
mean by that? Some of these buzzwords and catchphrases, but
(19:34):
what did it mean for you?
Speaker 1 (19:35):
For me?
Speaker 2 (19:36):
I had certainly spent the first few months of twenty
twenty four trying to hide from my team just how
hard I was finding things because because I felt like
they would lose confidence in me, and they would lose
confidence in the business. I think, you know, if anyone
(19:57):
knew like just how low and like depleted and then
you know, gradually burnt out, I was like, who wants
to be led by someone like that? And who would
have faith that they're making good decisions? And I think
that's what was going through my head. And I remember,
(20:18):
you know, when I did share more publicly my burnout experience,
and I think I did that maybe like when the
worst had passed, like maybe I don't know, July, August,
September last year, something like that. I remember someone in
my team told me that someone else in my team again,
like all these back channel conversations had questioned like why
(20:41):
wasn't I just honest at the time, And you know,
I thought, that's interesting that they feel that way, and
I felt like it wasn't an option for me, and
also it wouldn't have served the team particularly well to
know where I was at. And I felt like I
just had to keep pushing through and I would make
it through and then I could share it.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
But I didn't feel like I could share it at
the time.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
And I remember thinking, isn't that interesting that they said that,
And isn't that interesting that they didn't give the feedback
to me directly?
Speaker 3 (21:13):
And also is it possible that they were sort of
in tune with your burnout anyway and your state of
mind without you putting words to it.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
I'm sure they must have been.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
I mean, so it's a false sense of security that
we're like, well, I haven't shared it, so they don't
know it.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
Hmm, yeah, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
And I think I gradually began to realize that, and
I think I started sharing more and more and again,
like as of this year, you know, and again like
I you know, I think back to, you know, as
early as January in the off site, there were things
that I shared with the team then that I just
never would have thought to share, you know, months prior.
(21:57):
So I've become, I guess, very aware of like sharing
as much as I can. You know, obviously, it's hard
when you're a leader because you know a lot of
things that are confidential and you can't reach anyone's confidentiality,
even though if only you could, it would create much
needed context for like some of the things that you've done.
But I'm really aware of just going I just need
(22:20):
to be as honest as I can be.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
When do you think we overshare as opposed to radically share?
What's the difference.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
I feel like oversharing is more in the person that
is sharing's best interest. I feel like it's almost a
narcissistic kind of thing to do. I feel like that
word is so overused but you know, oversharing just feels
like I just want some attention and sympathy and so forth,
Whereas you know, I think what I try to do
is go, look, I want to be honest, but I
(22:51):
want to be honest in a way that serves my team.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
And I think, you know, the narcissist is a pointy
end of oversharing. Sometimes people overshare because they're trying to
make sense of their own experience, and to do that,
they talk it out and they're not thinking about who
they're sharing it with. One minute, they're in the kitchenette,
then they're on an email, then they're on a phone call,
and they're just sharing and sharing and sharing. So that
(23:14):
may not come from a need for adulation validation.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Yeah, absolutely, and it might also just come from I
just want some support and I need to be seen.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Sense checking as well, I'm feeling this, I'm feeling this,
you're almost checking is it your experience as well? In
a casual, non formal setting, you're looking for people to say, oh,
that's how i'm feeling as well, or what you know,
that's not what the team is feeling. So this is
this is on you. So I think it's a really difficult,
and I think a lot of leaders struggle with that.
(23:47):
And you know, cute us to you, Amantha for sharing.
You've shared every time we've got on the mic, certainly
when we're not on the mic, but generally behind the mic.
You share so much that I know Foreshore, so many
listeners who run businesses, who manage people, whether they're a
business owner or not, well have had the same experiences,
(24:08):
some of the same thoughts, some of the same fears,
and we're too frightened to share them. As you say,
we don't want to be judged as a failure, and
we wouldn't want someone We don't want to jeopardize our
business because we're sharing some of our vulnerabilities. And yet,
as Brene Brown has said for one thousand years, you
know it's around being vulnerable that builds connection and that
(24:33):
hopefully drives business and performance, including new business, because you've
walked in the shoes you've experienced. So if I'm a
corporate client coming to you, I know that you're not
working with me from a place of holier than now.
I have all the answers. You know what it's like
to lead a team, you know what it's like to
manage budgets. You know what it's like to work in
(24:56):
tough times, you know what it's like to have psychologically
unsafe moments or periods as a team, and you know
how to get it back on track. What better offering
is there in the line of work that you're in.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yeah, Look, I mean, like for me being on the
other side of the microphone when I'm used to playing
the role that you have played today and talking about
this kind of stuff like, it's not like super fun
and light like, it's hard stuff. It's hard stuff to share,
it's hard stuff to reflect on. And so for me,
what I hope is that firstly that people listening that
(25:29):
have gone through similar things that I've described today go wow,
I'm not alone, And hopefully there's a little bit of
gold in there to either help people get through and
see the light or maybe something that they now think
maybe I could do that differently.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
I think I'd be surprised if that's not the case.
It's a joy to be in each other's lives this
kind of conversation. It's not joyous, as you say, but
it's real and it's the experience of so many in
their working lives. So I think it matters, and you
know thanks for being so open on behalf of your listeners.
I know that you and I are open outside of here,
(26:10):
but to do this publicly as a business owner, I
think is big and a credit to you, and it's
pretty inspiring and two thumbs up from me.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Thank you so much for listening to this special two
part episode. I hope it gave you some new insights
or at the very least, helped you feel a little
less alone in the messy parts of leadership. If you
want to hear more about what burnout looked like for
me behind the scenes and the tools that helped me
crawl out of it, you will love a conversation I
(26:43):
had with Sabina a few months ago. It's a deep
dive into the personal side of burnout and how I
slowly found my way through. There's a link to that
in the show notes. Oh and if this episode resonated,
I'd love it if you shared it with someone who
might need to hear it. See you next time on
How I Work.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
If you like.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Today's show, make sure you get follow on your podcast
app to be alerted when new episodes drop. How I
Work was recorded on the Traditional Land of the Warrenery people,
part of the Kulin Nation.
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UConn basketball star Azzi Fudd brings her championship swag to iHeart Women’s Sports with Fudd Around and Find Out, a weekly podcast that takes fans along for the ride as Azzi spends her final year of college trying to reclaim the National Championship and prepare to be a first round WNBA draft pick. Ever wonder what it’s like to be a world-class athlete in the public spotlight while still managing schoolwork, friendships and family time? It’s time to Fudd Around and Find Out!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!