March 12, 2025 • 35 mins
Do you find yourself constantly trying to ensure people like you? Bending over backwards to avoid giving bad news or make someone unhappy?
What if the extra reassurance, and the fear of being too direct are actually causing more harm than good?
To dive into this topic, we’re joined by Laura Henshaw to talk about how she realised her need to be liked was affecting those working under her.
Laura Henshaw is a dynamic force in the health and wellness industry. As the co-founder and CEO of the incredibly successful KIC app and community, she leads a mission to reshape how people perceive wellness and their relationship with themselves.
And they are certainly having an impact, with the KIC app currently sitting at over 2.5 million users and reaching people in over 120 countries.
Outside of business, Laura co-hosts the chart topping Kicpod podcast, where she engages in candid conversations on health, wellness, and personal growth. She also shares her insights through a monthly column in Vogue.
Laura shares:
- The ways your people-pleasing could be holding you back.
- Why giving feedback as a "shit sandwich" doesn’t actually work.
- How she changed her people-pleasing behaviour.
- Why you’ll never succeed at getting everyone to like your decisions.
- The one thing you should prioritise over kindness when giving feedback.
Key Quotes:
“How hard I work has nothing to do with how worthy I am as a person.”
“Most decisions you make there is going to be someone that’s not going to like the decision.”
Connect with Laura on Instagram, subscribe to KIC APP and follow KIC Pod
My latest book The Health Habit is out now. You can order a copy here: https://www.amantha.com/the-health-habit/
Connect with me on the socials: Linkedin (https://www.linkedin.com/in/amanthaimber)
Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/amanthai)
If you are looking for more tips to improve the way you work and live, I write a weekly newsletter where I share practical and simple to apply tips to improve your life. You can sign up for that at https://amantha-imber.ck.page/subscribe
Visit https://www.amantha.com/podcast for full show notes from all episodes.
Get in touch at amantha@inventium.com.au
Credits:
Host: Amantha Imber
Sound Engineer: The Podcast Butler
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Do you find yourself constantly trying to ensure that people
like you, maybe bending over backwards to avoid giving bad
news or make someone unhappy. But what if the extra
reassurance and the fear of being too direct actually causing
you more harm than good. Many of us battle with
some degree of people pleasing in our personalities, and the
(00:24):
negative consequences can appear both in our personal and professional lives.
To dive into this topic, we are joined by Laura
Henshaw to talk about how she realized that her need
to be liked was affecting those working under her. Laura
Henshaw is a dynamic force in the health and wellness
(00:45):
industry as the co founder and CEO of the incredibly
successful Kick app and community. She leads a mission to
reshape how people perceive wellness and their relationship with themselves,
and Laura is having a massive impact with the Kick
app currently sitting at over two point five million users
(01:06):
and reaching people in over one hundred and twenty countries.
In this episode, we discussed the ways that your people
pleasing could be holding you back, how Laura changed her
people pleasing behavior, and how she broke her destructive habit
of reading comments from all the trolls. Welcome to How
(01:32):
I Work, a show about habits, rituals, and strategies for
optimizing your day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. In
addition to her incredible success, Laura is a self confessed
people pleaser, but she's done the work to improve in
that area. In fact, she did that work with her coach,
(01:53):
Jennie Martino, who helped her realize how her need to
be liked was affecting her work.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
The biggest thing that comes to mind is when I
met Janie. One of the biggest things holding me back
in when I say reaching my full potential as a leader,
I feel like we're always learning and growing, right, So
I'm definitely not there yet, and I hope I never
get there, because you want to keep growing and evolving.
But something that was holding me back a lot was
how much I cared about what people think or thought,
(02:26):
and also my need to be liked by every single person.
When you need to be liked by everyone that you're leading,
if that's kind of something that and I didn't consciously
put it as a KPI, but subconsciously that was number
one before everything else, which isn't the best for anyone
(02:46):
at all, because then you're leading at a lot of
the time in fear because you don't want to let
anyone down. You want people to like you. So giving
feedback is incredibly difficult. Feedback is obviously incredibly important for
people growing in their career, al so in being clear
and where you actually want the business to go and
taking control of it and executing the vision, the strategy, etc.
(03:09):
But I was so stuck in thinking that that mattered.
And I think for me, I have a lot of
people pleasing tendencies, and I don't want to say that
all women do not have that, and that's great, and
I don't want anyone listening to think that, oh, because
I'm a woman, I must be a people pleaser, because
I don't think that's the case at all. But I
think unfortunately maybe in gender stereotypical roles where more of
(03:31):
the care is or expected to be, etc. And so
sometimes it does come up. And so my people pleasing
tendencies really leaned into that need to be liked, and
so I've had to undo a lot of that, which
Janey helped me work through, and I have just like
the way that I'm able to lead now in comparison
when I look back at that person, I'm like, oh,
(03:52):
my goodness, it's crazy. Like I do identify still with
with myself of you know, three or whatever years ago,
two years ago, but I just feel so different, like
I've been let free and being able to let that go.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
I feel like you've just described my twenty twenty four.
I want to know for you, though, Laura, if you
think back over the last three years and this big
shift that you've made, what are some of those practical
things that you did, all those mindset shifts that you
had to make that had the biggest difference.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Oh, it's such a good question, and it's great that
you've also been on the journey because I think a
lot of people have and will relate to this. For me,
and one of the questions Janie asked me was and
we work through this in one of my I think
it was almost my first session with Janey, which was
why do you want to be liked? Like? Why is
that important? And is that actually what is important to you?
(04:44):
And what we came out to is, no, I don't.
It's not really about being liked per se, but it's
about being respected. And I think that was kind of
rooted in a lot of stuff. For me. I know
we might touch today on imposter syndrome and kind of
being a young female leader. So because of where my
career started was with social or part of it was
(05:05):
social media, and so for a very long time, I
felt that I wasn't taken seriously. Well I wasn't. Actually
I can not just what I thought. I was not
taken seriously by a lot of people that I worked with.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
How did you know for sure?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Well, I mean there were times when I was in
rooms with people that I worked with that would describe
so often Steph and I as the marketing girls, and
it's like, no, we built this brand, we run this business, etc.
There's been multiple occasions where that has happened in different ways,
and I think at that time, I felt like I
just had to prove myself. And I think because of
(05:42):
that kind of I've definitely worked through that and now
I know that like that's on them. I don't have
to prove myself to anyone. But that definitely was a
big cause of why I then felt that I had
to kind of lead that way. And so for me,
it was kind of thinking about, Okay, I need to
be respected, that's what it's important, and then it's unpacking. Okay,
(06:03):
how do you get respect with your team? How do
you get respect with the people around you by being
a good leader and knowing that you can still lead
with empathy, because that's very, very very important to me.
But I think it was also the realization that it
is impossible to be liked by everyone because no matter what,
like I know that you know, in running a business
and everyone that's listening that does most decisions you make,
(06:26):
there is going to be someone that's not going to
like the decision. It's very very rare we make decisions
where everyone agrees on it and is going to like
the outcome, right, especially when you're running a business. And
so it was also that realization that I was, well,
I'm setting myself up to fail because i can't actually
achieve this and I'm not driving the business. And in
my role as CEO of if I'm not driving the
(06:47):
business for then I shouldn't be in the.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Role how then, because I feel like one of the
hardest areas where this plays out is when you have
to have those tough conversations and I mean I hate
calling them to have conversations. I try to think of
them as important conversations as opposed to difficult conversations because
it changes the mindset. But they're hard if you've got
a high need to be liked and you are delivering
(07:12):
news that someone else is going to find tough or
confronting or hard to take on board. How did you
change your approach to those kinds of conversations.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
I think realizing that in going in to be liked.
So there was one instance. I remember I delivered something
to the team and Janie was there, and she said,
because I had always thought like I have to do
like a sandwich, I think this is something I don't
actually got sandwich. I don't agree that I should be.
I don't think it's the best way to approachings, but
I used to. And the feedback I got was it
(07:45):
was almost like I made a sandwich, but it was
like with the thinnest slice of ham in the middle,
which is what I had to deliver, and then it
had like a hundred pieces of bread on both sides,
so no one got the message no one's tasty because
I put so stuff around it in the fear that
of the thing I was delivering. What that then means
(08:06):
is I think when you're delivering out of a place
of fear. If you don't believe in what you're saying
or feel that it's fair or whatever it might be,
how the heck is your team going to find it
also fair and believe in it back. So that's number
one thing. But what I then was able to navigate
through time was realizing the biggest I think one of
the biggest realizations for me was feedback is a kindness.
(08:28):
Being clear is kind That's the biggest thing. And there's
a book I can't remember the name of it. I
will find it once I finish this pod and I
can send it through to put in the show notes.
But it's fantastic And at the start of it there's
a chapter around an employee that never gets feedback. They're
the really likable person in the office. They contribute to
culture Radical candor Yes, radical Canda, Yes Yeah. Who's the
(08:50):
author is it Kim Scott? Yes? Kim Scott, Radical Candor.
That first chapter made I recommend anyone that is struggling
with this right now to read that. It made such
a bigin for me because this person in this book
wasn't giving any given any feedback because everyone was trying
to avoid it because they liked them and they thought
that would be best for them. And then when they
were let go and they said, why didn't anyone tell me?
(09:12):
It's like stepping back and actually thinking about that, why
didn't anyone tell you? Because they were trying to protect you?
But in trying to protect you and be likable, you know,
to them, you then set them up to fail in
their role. And if people are coming to work with you,
I think I always feel like Kick, we're so lucky
to have the team that we have, and for people
to take time within their career path at Kick, you know,
(09:35):
and for us to be part of their journey is
a really special thing, and it's very important that we
offer career growth and development for those people. But if
we're not giving feedback on how they can improve or
being clear with our expectations, that's not the best for
them and it's also not the best for the business.
And that's where another really really big lesson from Janney
(09:55):
has come in on communication and the power of being
clear that you can do that with empathy, and that's
been a huge, huge lesson for me as well. And
you just as I said, like that sandwich with the
hundred slices of bread on each side. It doesn't help anyone.
And you say it is hard. You walk into the room,
(10:15):
you know you're having a hard conversation. You just need
to start it. Once you're in the conversation, it's absolutely fine.
It's kind of just that start part where you feel uncomfortable,
but you're also assuming what the other person is going
to do or how they're going to react. You don't know,
and so I think we need to also give people
the benefit of the doubt in that situation that though
they might be aligned with this or they might take
(10:35):
this on board, it's also their choice if they take
it on board or not right, but it is as
leaders it is our responsibility to share that with them.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
I want to ask in terms of this need to
be liked and how you've kind of shifted that into
you know, it's a need to be respected. I'm reminded
of I thought it was such a powerful interview that
you gave on the Imperfect I want to say that
was late twenty twenty three maybe, but during that interview
you spoke about how you read the comments online, all
(11:06):
of them, and Steph, your business partner and best friend doesn't,
and I remember being really surprised but curious. Has your
behavior changed in light of, I guess, trying to manage
your people pleasing ways? Or do you still do that? Oh?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Great question. I'm very proud to say that I don't
do that anymore.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
How did you stop?
Speaker 2 (11:28):
I mean, I working through all of this, and I
suppose it's kind of separate to my leadership journey per se,
but it'll write it it all comes together and links in.
I tried to and have been on a journey to
stop caring about what people I think. And Brene Brown
talks about this a lot, and it's one of my
favorite pieces of work that she has done when she
(11:48):
talks about people in the arena and if someone is
not in the arena with you, getting their butt kicked
like their opinion. I've definitely put to this, But essentially
it's like their opinion doesn't matter because they're up sitting
just watching and observing. And I think what I was
doing was thinking that. For me, it comes down to
growing up. Something that I valued myself on a lot
(12:09):
was being a hard worker. And so that's something that
I'm trying to undo as an adult now because I
think often what I do is I hide behind the
fact that I work hard, because then I don't have
to think about, well, hang on, what value do I
add here? It's like, well, I'm a hard worker. That's
the value that I add. But if I strip that
back and I don't do that, which can lead to
(12:30):
burnout and you can't work, you know, sixteen hours a
day for the rest of your life every single day.
It's too much, you know, ebbs and flows, and sometimes
I'll be busy weeks and less busy weeks. But I
have had to strip that back, and I think a
part of that was there's a book called Burnout. It's fantastic.
There's one page that's about the whip and I just
(12:51):
related to it so much when I read it, and
essentially what they talk about is and it's mainly aimed
at women. This book. For a lot of people, we
feel that we have to seek out this, like I
was these trolling comments because the reason I was seeking
them out is because I feel like I have to
continue working hard, I have to continue improving, and so
if I would read it, it was almost this fuel
(13:13):
of the fire of Okay, I'm not good enough yet,
I have to keep. In the book, the way they
talk about it is it's a whip. I have to
keep whipping myself because then if you pull back and
what they talk about in the book, and you look
at where you've what you've built, or how you in
your career, where you've got to, and you know with
what we've built with Kick, I look back and I think, Okay,
the reason I have got here is because of the whip.
(13:34):
So if I put the whip down and I stop
fueling myself through all of these kind of horrible trolling
comments online, constantly trying to be better and better and better,
I won't have any drive and therefore I won't be
able to continue to grow. Then it's been working through
like that. Whip is not the reason that I have
got to where I am today and unpacking that, but
(13:55):
it has been really really hard to do that. And
it also depends, like I feel like our confidence ebbs
and flows, and I know when you think of like
the most kind of corny Pinterest quote, it's like confidence
is not a destination. It's a journey. I know, and
I can see like the clouds around it. But it's true, right,
you can never ever ever stop working on yourself, and
(14:16):
so sometimes I will go through stages where I feel
tempted to go and look at those comments and take
them on board. But I have done a lot of
work on myself to now have so many tools to
not go and do that and know that how hard
I work has nothing to do with how worthy I
am as a person, and that I'm you know, capable
(14:36):
of deserving of things. That's been really hard to work through,
but that has been so important in truly believing like
within myself to be able to kind of get through
that stuff. And I definitely still have self doubt, but
it does not control me like it used to.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Like that sounds absolutely phenomenal what you've done, Laura. That
is such a huge change to achieve. I don't know you,
but I've feel proud, you.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Know, thank you. It's very kind.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
How then do you know when enough is enough? At work?
I mean, you know, you're like this amazing mascot for
well being. You know, that's that's who you are, that's
what kick is. Yet you're a business owner, you're a CEO,
you do obviously have an amazing work ethic, and you've
got friends and family. How do you know then when
(15:23):
enough is enough on a day to day or week
to week basis, well, I have.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
To start by saying sometimes I don't and this is
something I'm absolutely working through. So I do not have
this down pattern perfect. But for me, what I have
learned is when I don't stop and I don't have
anything outside of work, first of all, like the impact
that that then puts me back in a fear driven
mindset because one hundred and ten percent of my focus
is on work. And so my full fulfillment in my
(15:50):
life is based on what happens, you know, with kick
and running a business, like the one thing that is
guaranteed is that stuff's going to go wrong, Like that's
the one thing. There's something else is guaranteed. There's gonna
there's gon to be things that you're going to come
up against that you maybe have never sold before or
are really really going to challenge you. Like that is guaranteed,
right as we know in anyone that's a business owner
will also know that. And so because of that, if
(16:12):
I have all of my eggs in the basket of work,
I am them operating knowing that I have to keep
going and going and going, because this is the only
way I'm going to get fulfillment and if something goes wrong,
controlling your emotional reaction within yourself and they're not going
down a path of for me, really getting deep in
that self doubt mindset, but also a shame mindset in
(16:34):
that you know something might go wrong not go the
way that I wanted it to. I now am much
better at reframing into you know, this didn't go the
way I wanted it to. Here's my learnings. I'm moving
on instead of saying I am stupid, or I am dumb,
or I'm not good enough, because what happens when you're
in that mindset or I have found, is that it
is so hard to get out of it. And once
(16:56):
you spiral it might start in one element of your
your work or your job, it will spread into every
element of your life and less you and your work,
and then it will start to spread out psy cancer
unless you take control of it. And so for me,
I know that if I have all of my eggs
in the basket of work and I work every single
day and don't take any breaks, that's kind of where
(17:16):
I will be end up. And that's not the best
thing for me, for the company, for anyone that I
work with, because sometimes, like you know, back this has
not happened for a long time, but I've had spirals
that have lasted like six seven months, and that is
so much time to lose because when you don't believe
in yourself and you're trying to move a company forward,
it's very, very, very difficult. And so that's been one
(17:39):
of the biggest things. And then the other thing is
is understanding. So having things outside of work is very important,
but then understanding as well. If I push push, push,
I'm not going to be able to show up as
my best self the next day. My brain doesn't work
as well. I get brain fog. I find it really
hard to focus on deep work. I find it really
hard to actually step back and actually work out what
(18:00):
am I working on that's impactful, because you get so
stuck in the weeds and just on this kind of
wheel of got to keep going, got to keep going,
and then you're actually again not making impact. That's what's important, right,
and so it's stepping back and being able to do that.
But it's definitely something like, as I say this, I
don't always get it right.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
When you recognize that you're in a spiral. What has
worked for you in the past in terms of breaking
out of that, either quickly or slowly.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
I think it's understanding shame has been one of the
biggest things Brene Brown. I reference her so much. She's
just incredible. Her work is for me personally, has made
such an impact. She has a book. It's got a
red cover. It's essentially all about different emotions and the
definitions Atlas of the Heart, so you know all of them.
Amazing that I highly recommend that book to anyone that's
(18:53):
listening because the way she defines and kind of speaks
through shame really helped me understand what it is. And
I think when you understand what it is, it is
easier to call it out when it's happening. And so
what I sometimes I don't do this, but what I
try to do and what I find really works, is
trying to step out from the situation and separate from myself,
(19:16):
Like the way I'm talking to myself that I'm not
good enough, because I know how it feels. And when
I start feeling that way, I'm like, Okay, hang on,
I need to look like what's going on in my brain?
What's going on in my mind, and I'm able to
take those thoughts and almost like visualize separating them from
myself and then identifying that, Okay, I have not all
of a sudden lost my entire brain capacity forgotten how
(19:38):
to do my job and have just become, you know,
not be able to do anything that has not happened. Now,
while that's what I'm telling myself in my head, that
has not happened, this is actually shame and I need
to get out of this, and then I will reframe
it away from you know, I am not good enough
to This didn't go the way that I wanted. Here's
my learnings. I'm going to move forward. As I said,
(19:58):
it's easier said than done, and sometimes it does take
a few days to be able to kind of separate that.
But it's kind it's coming back to focusing on the present,
because when you're doing that, you're just caught up in
you know, what's happened in the past, and you're making
stories up in your head. Trying to come back and
cent to yourself and come back to the present and
taking those thoughts out from that and working through them.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
How do you know when you're in a spiral like
can you think of a time when I don't know
you were last in it, or when it was particularly
hard to get out of.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
How do you know how it feels in my body?
I feel my chest is tight, I feel sad, and
I feel like really demotivated and maybe not depressed per se,
but just really down. And I know that that's not
how I usually feel. Like our body tells us. We know,
like how you feel is everything, And that's something that
(20:49):
in terms of going back to the advice that Jennie
has shared for me and what I've learned the most
from her, like that's one of the biggest things, is
going back to how do you feel? Like it's one
of the questions that comes up out of almost anything
that you're kind of working through, and so I know
what that feeling is and I can identify that, and
then it's yet working out how to get out of it.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
You spoke about not having all the balls in the
one basket in the work basket. What actions do you
take where you feel like it is leaning that way? Like,
what are the steps that you've taken in the past
to be more balanced? And I guess reduce the chance
of burnout and being in one of these virals.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
At first, it's acknowledging that all of my eggs are
in the work basket, which I'm in. Again, for anyone listening,
it's pretty hard to do that, and especially when sometimes
I think we get in this almost marta mindset of
I have to all my eggs have to be in
this basket? Do they? Why are you just telling yourself
that probably that's usually what the answer is, But I
think we have to do this, well why do you?
(21:49):
Probably not, You're just in this spiral, And so I
kind of step back and I look at, okay, what
and especially for me as well, like one of my
kind of hobbies per se is running, but running is
also a big part of my work and making content,
and so I've had to also be quite honest with
myself because sometimes I'm like, oh, no, I've got my running,
but it's like, well, no, running is also technically a
(22:11):
part of my work because you know, we've got the
Kick growing program and Kick and all the content that
I create out of that. So I step back and
I think, Okay, well, what am I doing outside of
work to fill my cut back up? And one of
the things I often find will kind of go off
and I don't know if this is the same for you,
that I will kind of first just put in the
bin per se is social time because I think I
(22:33):
don't have time to do that. And you also sometimes
when you feel exhausted, maybe because of work or whatever,
it might be the last thing you want to do
is go out for dinner or go and speak to
more people because you just want to be by yourself.
But you actually need to get out and do that.
And for me, it's been really really acknowledging that that
social time that fills my cup like that is recharging.
(22:55):
Even though it's with people and solo time is very important,
connection is also a way to fill like up that
sometimes I think when we get caught up in our
own heads, we just put it off and cancel it
because we don't think that we can show up. But
that's actually what helps well for me recharge my batteries.
So it's looking at, Okay, what am I doing, and
it's what am I spending time on. It Something that
(23:15):
I always love to think about when it comes to
hobbies or just things that can take my mind off
just the grind of the day, is what have I
done lately? Where I didn't look at the time, and
time just passed by and I didn't even realize, and
I wasn't thinking about like, oh, I need to be
productive after this, or you know, I'm only going to
do this for an hour. I didn't even notice, and
(23:36):
the day passed. I mean, I don't do a lot
of it, but when I've done pottery before, that's something
that happens. When I spend time with kids, like often,
that's also what happens painting and reading, and so I
try to get those things back in my life. But
it's important to acknowledge as well that sometimes there are
periods where work will take a lot from you. And
(23:57):
it's accepting that and honoring that, because I think when
we try and fight it it can just make it worse.
But just trying to make sure we're really honest with ourselves.
If we say I don't have time to do anything
for myself, it's really asking like why and if you
can trying to do something otherwise you won't show up
one hundred percent when you get to work. Anyway, we will.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Be back with Laura soon, and when we return, Laura
shares the rituals and habits that keep her from overloading
on work, why it's crucial to avoid responding from an
emotional state, and her top tip for starting the week
strong to ensure you actually get things done. If you're
(24:39):
looking for more tips to improve the way you work
can live. I write a short weekly newsletter that contains
tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. You can
sign up for that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha
dot com. I am curious as to how then you
(25:02):
stay disciplined with making sure that you do have time
for these other non work activities, because I think you
know and I say this as someone who I think
could do with working less hours. It's kind of it's
easy to say and it's easy to know, but then
it's hard to do. And so I can share with
you something that I have found quite useful because I
agree with social connection. It's such an energizer. And I've
(25:25):
got my family. I've got my beautiful daughter, a beautiful partner,
and they're amazing, but friends are so important. I'm an
only child, and so my friends are like family. And
I have a little ritual that I generally do it
on Mondays where I will just send a bunch of
messages to my friends and get social catch ups in
the diary, and I know that if I've got at
least one or two friend catch ups that might be
(25:48):
a walk, or it might be a meal or something else,
then that's a good week. I'm filling my social cup.
For you, Like, do you have any rituals or kind
of little hacks like that almost keep you honest away
from just overleading on work.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Oh, that's such a good thing to do, especially at
the start of the week. I think for me, it's
scheduling in at the start of the week, Like that's
the biggest hack that we can do for ourselves, because
if you don't, you never set yourself up for success,
because then you don't have any boundaries kind of in
your day. You haven't set your routine up, and then
you will every time. I mean, it's the same thing
with moving your body, right. If you don't prepare, if
(26:26):
you wake up in the morning and you don't know
what workout you're going to do, you haven't got your
clothes out, you haven't really allowed yourself enough time, and
you haven't thought through it and planned. It is so
easy to be like, oh it's too hard, I'm just
going to keep sleeping or I'm just going to hit
to work early or whatever it might be. And it's
the same thing right with everything with planning. So for
me with movement, it's making sure I've worked out where
(26:50):
that's going to fit in my week, because if I haven't,
the week will just override it. And doing that at
the start of the week. And then also the social thing.
I try and make sure I have one kind of
social connection thing during the week and then one on
the weekend as well. And it's making the effort to
put that in right and sometimes I know and I can. Again,
it comes back to how I feel in my body,
(27:10):
like when I start feeling down and tired and that
feeling like close to burnout. I look at a hang on.
If I look back at the past month or whatever,
I haven't done the things that I know can help
me work through this. So I don't always do it,
but that's a really good hack.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
I want to pick up on what you said before
about Sydney, where you have to go to Sydney, No,
you get to go to Sydney. Tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Oh, I mean that's perspective. Is everything right? And I
think when we get caught up in the busyness of like,
how many times do you ask someone how they're going
and they say busy? And I really try not to
do that because I like focusing on perspective and then
coming back to gratitude. When I focus on gratitude, I'm
(27:55):
able to be so much more present, and I'm just
able to show up in such a better way than
I do when I think, you know, the world is
happening to me, instead of being like, no, I'm happening
to the world. Like we're in control of a lot
more than we think, and so so often we think, oh,
I have to go to this meeting, I have to
go to work today, I have to go to Sydney,
(28:16):
and it's reframing that to no, I get to go
to Sydney, and yes, you know, flying in and out
in a day might be tiring, but what an amazing
opportunity to be able to go and do whatever I'm
doing there. And then I think, Okay, well, it's pretty
awesome that someone you know cares about me enough to
want me to go to Sydney and meet them. Because
then when I go, I'm not going in this headspace
(28:37):
of I don't want to be here. I'm exhausted, I'm tired,
because that's going to impact the entire day. I'm going
to have a horrible experience one million percent.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
I want to ask you about something you You wrote
this really great post on LinkedIn, which I think it
was something like ten things I now know to be
true as a CEO, something like that. I'm paraphrasing, and
one of the things you wrote. I'll read it out
because I really loved it, and I'm curious as to
how how you apply this day to day. You said,
responding in an emotional state is never a good idea.
(29:07):
Always take a moment, a few minutes, an hour a day,
depending on how you feel and the response within your body,
before you respond, Wait until you can get into a
win win mindset instead of you versus the other person mindset.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Can you tell me about that?
Speaker 1 (29:19):
How did you learn that lesson? Oh?
Speaker 2 (29:21):
I mean, I've learned it many, many, many times. I
think when things happen, it might be that I don't know,
someone responded to something in a way that you didn't
feel was fair, or you're in a negotiation and it's
not feeling whatever it might be. Usually because it feels unfair, right,
That's why we respond in that way, and the first response,
like our automatic response is oh, I need to tell them,
(29:44):
like why they've made me feel this way and why
they're wrong and etc. There is no way, like in
the art of negotiation or just generally approaching a conversation,
that if you approach a conversation like that, you were
going to get a good outcome because you're going in
wanting to I suppose you're not really wanting to the
other person, but that's kind of how you're approaching it,
because what you really want if you step back, and
(30:05):
it always comes back to this stow, which is again
in the moment. And that's why I kind of said
if it takes Amitted an hour or a day, because
sometimes things will trigger us into a really intense emotional response,
never ever, ever, ever respond in that time. It's I
don't know any time in my life when I've responded
in that while I'm in that feeling that it's been
a good outcome, or if we have got a good outcome,
(30:28):
it's just taken so long to get there. So step
out and think, Okay, yes, this person has really maybe
it's a contract negotiation, they've sent things through that have
really offended you, like they don't see my value, I'm
being taken advantage of, etcetera, etcetera. So it's stepping back
and being like, Okay, they have responded in that way,
(30:49):
so how I would have responded like that's but I'm
not going to take it personally. I'm going to come
back to what do I want to get out of
this and what do they want to get out of it?
And how can I respond in a way to pre
that's closer to that outcome? That will often help the
other person to bring down their guard, because if you
go in with your guard and you're in this attack mode,
they are going to straight get on the defense. And
(31:10):
negotiating with anyone or having a conversation when someone is
defensive is I mean, we've all been in those situations.
It's really difficult. Is very very rare you will get
anywhere right.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
How do you, I guess, almost take yourself down off
that cliff's edge when you're feeling like that. To calm
yourself down, whether it's over a period of hours or
a day or more, I.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Let myself feel the feelings. I think that's really important.
I think often we feel or we're told that we
have to. You know, we can't get upset, we can't
feel angry. They're fine. Like, you have to honor your emotions,
and often when something triggers you, it's just a I
suppose indication of something you really care about about yourself.
So I let myself feel the emotion, and depending on
(31:52):
how hard I'm feeling it, then I just I know
if I'm still like, if I'm still feeling that for
a long time, I know that I have to wait
a little bit longer. I find a good night's sleep
will help me get out of that emotional state. Most
of the time, but I wait until I don't feel
super super triggered and I suppose attacked by it and
emotional about it. I let those emotions. I honor them,
(32:13):
I let them pass there. Of course, there are times
when it doesn't pass, and that's when I actually be like, okay,
we need to move forward, Like coming back to again,
what is the outcome that they want? Like what's the
best outcome for them? What's the best outcome for me?
Like a win win mindset, and then like applying it
to that, and it is it's talking to people about it,
talking it through always helps because I think sometimes we
can get in our head and we start making up
(32:35):
all of these assumptions and all of these stories. You know,
we always say, like the truth is, there's one person's side,
the other person's side, and then there's the truth, right,
and sometimes too, what might happen? They might have triggered
something in you, and then you will then make up
this entire thing in your head that makes you really
angry and it keeps that emotion, But none of that
has happened. It's all made up in your head based
(32:57):
on how you think that personal respond or assumptions. So
it's just being able to realize that if that's lasting longer,
what that is, step out of yourself and then work
through what am I trying to get out of this?
And what do they want? But it is, as I said,
it is much harder said than done, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
I want to finish with asking. I feel like you're
the sort of person you know, given how well well
read you are and how thoughtful you are, that you
know perhaps has different mantras or sayings or ways of
being that perhaps a friend of mine at different times
in your life. I'd love to know right now. What
is a mantra or a quote or something like that
(33:37):
that is serving you particularly well right now?
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Oh, that's such a good thing. I think for me,
I'm still working through as I said, like working on
confidence and removing self doubt is still something that I'm
working on. It's a journey. So the thing that right
now that I always come back to is that I
am good enough and I'm safe, and that really helps me.
Actually that I am safe part because I think I
(34:03):
don't know what it is, but it just makes me
feel calm when I say it and I believe it,
which is you know what we want to do when
we have a mantra.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Definitely, Laura, It's made such a joy having you on.
Thank you so much for sharing this last hour with me.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Thank you, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
I hope you love this chat with Laura as much
as I did, and I know some of it really
hit close to home, such as the need to be liked.
If you want to learn more about Laura, I highly
recommend checking out her podcast, Kickpod or the kick app.
I've put links to both of those in the show notes.
(34:43):
If you like today's show, make sure you hit follow
on your podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop.
How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of
the Warrangery people, part of the cool And Nation
Do you find yourself constantly trying to ensure that people
like you, maybe bending over backwards to avoid giving bad
news or make someone unhappy. But what if the extra
reassurance and the fear of being too direct actually causing
you more harm than good. Many of us battle with
some degree of people pleasing in our personalities, and the
(00:24):
negative consequences can appear both in our personal and professional lives.
To dive into this topic, we are joined by Laura
Henshaw to talk about how she realized that her need
to be liked was affecting those working under her. Laura
Henshaw is a dynamic force in the health and wellness
(00:45):
industry as the co founder and CEO of the incredibly
successful Kick app and community. She leads a mission to
reshape how people perceive wellness and their relationship with themselves,
and Laura is having a massive impact with the Kick
app currently sitting at over two point five million users
(01:06):
and reaching people in over one hundred and twenty countries.
In this episode, we discussed the ways that your people
pleasing could be holding you back, how Laura changed her
people pleasing behavior, and how she broke her destructive habit
of reading comments from all the trolls. Welcome to How
(01:32):
I Work, a show about habits, rituals, and strategies for
optimizing your day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. In
addition to her incredible success, Laura is a self confessed
people pleaser, but she's done the work to improve in
that area. In fact, she did that work with her coach,
(01:53):
Jennie Martino, who helped her realize how her need to
be liked was affecting her work.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
The biggest thing that comes to mind is when I
met Janie. One of the biggest things holding me back
in when I say reaching my full potential as a leader,
I feel like we're always learning and growing, right, So
I'm definitely not there yet, and I hope I never
get there, because you want to keep growing and evolving.
But something that was holding me back a lot was
how much I cared about what people think or thought,
(02:26):
and also my need to be liked by every single person.
When you need to be liked by everyone that you're leading,
if that's kind of something that and I didn't consciously
put it as a KPI, but subconsciously that was number
one before everything else, which isn't the best for anyone
(02:46):
at all, because then you're leading at a lot of
the time in fear because you don't want to let
anyone down. You want people to like you. So giving
feedback is incredibly difficult. Feedback is obviously incredibly important for
people growing in their career, al so in being clear
and where you actually want the business to go and
taking control of it and executing the vision, the strategy, etc.
(03:09):
But I was so stuck in thinking that that mattered.
And I think for me, I have a lot of
people pleasing tendencies, and I don't want to say that
all women do not have that, and that's great, and
I don't want anyone listening to think that, oh, because
I'm a woman, I must be a people pleaser, because
I don't think that's the case at all. But I
think unfortunately maybe in gender stereotypical roles where more of
(03:31):
the care is or expected to be, etc. And so
sometimes it does come up. And so my people pleasing
tendencies really leaned into that need to be liked, and
so I've had to undo a lot of that, which
Janey helped me work through, and I have just like
the way that I'm able to lead now in comparison
when I look back at that person, I'm like, oh,
(03:52):
my goodness, it's crazy. Like I do identify still with
with myself of you know, three or whatever years ago,
two years ago, but I just feel so different, like
I've been let free and being able to let that go.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
I feel like you've just described my twenty twenty four.
I want to know for you, though, Laura, if you
think back over the last three years and this big
shift that you've made, what are some of those practical
things that you did, all those mindset shifts that you
had to make that had the biggest difference.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Oh, it's such a good question, and it's great that
you've also been on the journey because I think a
lot of people have and will relate to this. For me,
and one of the questions Janie asked me was and
we work through this in one of my I think
it was almost my first session with Janey, which was
why do you want to be liked? Like? Why is
that important? And is that actually what is important to you?
(04:44):
And what we came out to is, no, I don't.
It's not really about being liked per se, but it's
about being respected. And I think that was kind of
rooted in a lot of stuff. For me. I know
we might touch today on imposter syndrome and kind of
being a young female leader. So because of where my
career started was with social or part of it was
(05:05):
social media, and so for a very long time, I
felt that I wasn't taken seriously. Well I wasn't. Actually
I can not just what I thought. I was not
taken seriously by a lot of people that I worked with.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
How did you know for sure?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Well, I mean there were times when I was in
rooms with people that I worked with that would describe
so often Steph and I as the marketing girls, and
it's like, no, we built this brand, we run this business, etc.
There's been multiple occasions where that has happened in different ways,
and I think at that time, I felt like I
just had to prove myself. And I think because of
(05:42):
that kind of I've definitely worked through that and now
I know that like that's on them. I don't have
to prove myself to anyone. But that definitely was a
big cause of why I then felt that I had
to kind of lead that way. And so for me,
it was kind of thinking about, Okay, I need to
be respected, that's what it's important, and then it's unpacking. Okay,
(06:03):
how do you get respect with your team? How do
you get respect with the people around you by being
a good leader and knowing that you can still lead
with empathy, because that's very, very very important to me.
But I think it was also the realization that it
is impossible to be liked by everyone because no matter what,
like I know that you know, in running a business
and everyone that's listening that does most decisions you make,
(06:26):
there is going to be someone that's not going to
like the decision. It's very very rare we make decisions
where everyone agrees on it and is going to like
the outcome, right, especially when you're running a business. And
so it was also that realization that I was, well,
I'm setting myself up to fail because i can't actually
achieve this and I'm not driving the business. And in
my role as CEO of if I'm not driving the
(06:47):
business for then I shouldn't be in the.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Role how then, because I feel like one of the
hardest areas where this plays out is when you have
to have those tough conversations and I mean I hate
calling them to have conversations. I try to think of
them as important conversations as opposed to difficult conversations because
it changes the mindset. But they're hard if you've got
a high need to be liked and you are delivering
(07:12):
news that someone else is going to find tough or
confronting or hard to take on board. How did you
change your approach to those kinds of conversations.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
I think realizing that in going in to be liked.
So there was one instance. I remember I delivered something
to the team and Janie was there, and she said,
because I had always thought like I have to do
like a sandwich, I think this is something I don't
actually got sandwich. I don't agree that I should be.
I don't think it's the best way to approachings, but
I used to. And the feedback I got was it
(07:45):
was almost like I made a sandwich, but it was
like with the thinnest slice of ham in the middle,
which is what I had to deliver, and then it
had like a hundred pieces of bread on both sides,
so no one got the message no one's tasty because
I put so stuff around it in the fear that
of the thing I was delivering. What that then means
(08:06):
is I think when you're delivering out of a place
of fear. If you don't believe in what you're saying
or feel that it's fair or whatever it might be,
how the heck is your team going to find it
also fair and believe in it back. So that's number
one thing. But what I then was able to navigate
through time was realizing the biggest I think one of
the biggest realizations for me was feedback is a kindness.
(08:28):
Being clear is kind That's the biggest thing. And there's
a book I can't remember the name of it. I
will find it once I finish this pod and I
can send it through to put in the show notes.
But it's fantastic And at the start of it there's
a chapter around an employee that never gets feedback. They're
the really likable person in the office. They contribute to
culture Radical candor Yes, radical Canda, Yes Yeah. Who's the
(08:50):
author is it Kim Scott? Yes? Kim Scott, Radical Candor.
That first chapter made I recommend anyone that is struggling
with this right now to read that. It made such
a bigin for me because this person in this book
wasn't giving any given any feedback because everyone was trying
to avoid it because they liked them and they thought
that would be best for them. And then when they
were let go and they said, why didn't anyone tell me?
(09:12):
It's like stepping back and actually thinking about that, why
didn't anyone tell you? Because they were trying to protect you?
But in trying to protect you and be likable, you know,
to them, you then set them up to fail in
their role. And if people are coming to work with you,
I think I always feel like Kick, we're so lucky
to have the team that we have, and for people
to take time within their career path at Kick, you know,
(09:35):
and for us to be part of their journey is
a really special thing, and it's very important that we
offer career growth and development for those people. But if
we're not giving feedback on how they can improve or
being clear with our expectations, that's not the best for
them and it's also not the best for the business.
And that's where another really really big lesson from Janney
(09:55):
has come in on communication and the power of being
clear that you can do that with empathy, and that's
been a huge, huge lesson for me as well. And
you just as I said, like that sandwich with the
hundred slices of bread on each side. It doesn't help anyone.
And you say it is hard. You walk into the room,
(10:15):
you know you're having a hard conversation. You just need
to start it. Once you're in the conversation, it's absolutely fine.
It's kind of just that start part where you feel uncomfortable,
but you're also assuming what the other person is going
to do or how they're going to react. You don't know,
and so I think we need to also give people
the benefit of the doubt in that situation that though
they might be aligned with this or they might take
(10:35):
this on board, it's also their choice if they take
it on board or not right, but it is as
leaders it is our responsibility to share that with them.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
I want to ask in terms of this need to
be liked and how you've kind of shifted that into
you know, it's a need to be respected. I'm reminded
of I thought it was such a powerful interview that
you gave on the Imperfect I want to say that
was late twenty twenty three maybe, but during that interview
you spoke about how you read the comments online, all
(11:06):
of them, and Steph, your business partner and best friend doesn't,
and I remember being really surprised but curious. Has your
behavior changed in light of, I guess, trying to manage
your people pleasing ways? Or do you still do that? Oh?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Great question. I'm very proud to say that I don't
do that anymore.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
How did you stop?
Speaker 2 (11:28):
I mean, I working through all of this, and I
suppose it's kind of separate to my leadership journey per se,
but it'll write it it all comes together and links in.
I tried to and have been on a journey to
stop caring about what people I think. And Brene Brown
talks about this a lot, and it's one of my
favorite pieces of work that she has done when she
(11:48):
talks about people in the arena and if someone is
not in the arena with you, getting their butt kicked
like their opinion. I've definitely put to this, But essentially
it's like their opinion doesn't matter because they're up sitting
just watching and observing. And I think what I was
doing was thinking that. For me, it comes down to
growing up. Something that I valued myself on a lot
(12:09):
was being a hard worker. And so that's something that
I'm trying to undo as an adult now because I
think often what I do is I hide behind the
fact that I work hard, because then I don't have
to think about, well, hang on, what value do I
add here? It's like, well, I'm a hard worker. That's
the value that I add. But if I strip that
back and I don't do that, which can lead to
(12:30):
burnout and you can't work, you know, sixteen hours a
day for the rest of your life every single day.
It's too much, you know, ebbs and flows, and sometimes
I'll be busy weeks and less busy weeks. But I
have had to strip that back, and I think a
part of that was there's a book called Burnout. It's fantastic.
There's one page that's about the whip and I just
(12:51):
related to it so much when I read it, and
essentially what they talk about is and it's mainly aimed
at women. This book. For a lot of people, we
feel that we have to seek out this, like I
was these trolling comments because the reason I was seeking
them out is because I feel like I have to
continue working hard, I have to continue improving, and so
if I would read it, it was almost this fuel
(13:13):
of the fire of Okay, I'm not good enough yet,
I have to keep. In the book, the way they
talk about it is it's a whip. I have to
keep whipping myself because then if you pull back and
what they talk about in the book, and you look
at where you've what you've built, or how you in
your career, where you've got to, and you know with
what we've built with Kick, I look back and I think, Okay,
the reason I have got here is because of the whip.
(13:34):
So if I put the whip down and I stop
fueling myself through all of these kind of horrible trolling
comments online, constantly trying to be better and better and better,
I won't have any drive and therefore I won't be
able to continue to grow. Then it's been working through
like that. Whip is not the reason that I have
got to where I am today and unpacking that, but
(13:55):
it has been really really hard to do that. And
it also depends, like I feel like our confidence ebbs
and flows, and I know when you think of like
the most kind of corny Pinterest quote, it's like confidence
is not a destination. It's a journey. I know, and
I can see like the clouds around it. But it's true, right,
you can never ever ever stop working on yourself, and
(14:16):
so sometimes I will go through stages where I feel
tempted to go and look at those comments and take
them on board. But I have done a lot of
work on myself to now have so many tools to
not go and do that and know that how hard
I work has nothing to do with how worthy I
am as a person, and that I'm you know, capable
(14:36):
of deserving of things. That's been really hard to work through,
but that has been so important in truly believing like
within myself to be able to kind of get through
that stuff. And I definitely still have self doubt, but
it does not control me like it used to.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Like that sounds absolutely phenomenal what you've done, Laura. That
is such a huge change to achieve. I don't know you,
but I've feel proud, you.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Know, thank you. It's very kind.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
How then do you know when enough is enough? At work?
I mean, you know, you're like this amazing mascot for
well being. You know, that's that's who you are, that's
what kick is. Yet you're a business owner, you're a CEO,
you do obviously have an amazing work ethic, and you've
got friends and family. How do you know then when
(15:23):
enough is enough on a day to day or week
to week basis, well, I have.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
To start by saying sometimes I don't and this is
something I'm absolutely working through. So I do not have
this down pattern perfect. But for me, what I have
learned is when I don't stop and I don't have
anything outside of work, first of all, like the impact
that that then puts me back in a fear driven
mindset because one hundred and ten percent of my focus
is on work. And so my full fulfillment in my
(15:50):
life is based on what happens, you know, with kick
and running a business, like the one thing that is
guaranteed is that stuff's going to go wrong, Like that's
the one thing. There's something else is guaranteed. There's gonna
there's gon to be things that you're going to come
up against that you maybe have never sold before or
are really really going to challenge you. Like that is guaranteed,
right as we know in anyone that's a business owner
will also know that. And so because of that, if
(16:12):
I have all of my eggs in the basket of work,
I am them operating knowing that I have to keep
going and going and going, because this is the only
way I'm going to get fulfillment and if something goes wrong,
controlling your emotional reaction within yourself and they're not going
down a path of for me, really getting deep in
that self doubt mindset, but also a shame mindset in
(16:34):
that you know something might go wrong not go the
way that I wanted it to. I now am much
better at reframing into you know, this didn't go the
way I wanted it to. Here's my learnings. I'm moving
on instead of saying I am stupid, or I am dumb,
or I'm not good enough, because what happens when you're
in that mindset or I have found, is that it
is so hard to get out of it. And once
(16:56):
you spiral it might start in one element of your
your work or your job, it will spread into every
element of your life and less you and your work,
and then it will start to spread out psy cancer
unless you take control of it. And so for me,
I know that if I have all of my eggs
in the basket of work and I work every single
day and don't take any breaks, that's kind of where
(17:16):
I will be end up. And that's not the best
thing for me, for the company, for anyone that I
work with, because sometimes, like you know, back this has
not happened for a long time, but I've had spirals
that have lasted like six seven months, and that is
so much time to lose because when you don't believe
in yourself and you're trying to move a company forward,
it's very, very, very difficult. And so that's been one
(17:39):
of the biggest things. And then the other thing is
is understanding. So having things outside of work is very important,
but then understanding as well. If I push push, push,
I'm not going to be able to show up as
my best self the next day. My brain doesn't work
as well. I get brain fog. I find it really
hard to focus on deep work. I find it really
hard to actually step back and actually work out what
(18:00):
am I working on that's impactful, because you get so
stuck in the weeds and just on this kind of
wheel of got to keep going, got to keep going,
and then you're actually again not making impact. That's what's important, right,
and so it's stepping back and being able to do that.
But it's definitely something like, as I say this, I
don't always get it right.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
When you recognize that you're in a spiral. What has
worked for you in the past in terms of breaking
out of that, either quickly or slowly.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
I think it's understanding shame has been one of the
biggest things Brene Brown. I reference her so much. She's
just incredible. Her work is for me personally, has made
such an impact. She has a book. It's got a
red cover. It's essentially all about different emotions and the
definitions Atlas of the Heart, so you know all of them.
Amazing that I highly recommend that book to anyone that's
(18:53):
listening because the way she defines and kind of speaks
through shame really helped me understand what it is. And
I think when you understand what it is, it is
easier to call it out when it's happening. And so
what I sometimes I don't do this, but what I
try to do and what I find really works, is
trying to step out from the situation and separate from myself,
(19:16):
Like the way I'm talking to myself that I'm not
good enough, because I know how it feels. And when
I start feeling that way, I'm like, Okay, hang on,
I need to look like what's going on in my brain?
What's going on in my mind, and I'm able to
take those thoughts and almost like visualize separating them from
myself and then identifying that, Okay, I have not all
of a sudden lost my entire brain capacity forgotten how
(19:38):
to do my job and have just become, you know,
not be able to do anything that has not happened. Now,
while that's what I'm telling myself in my head, that
has not happened, this is actually shame and I need
to get out of this, and then I will reframe
it away from you know, I am not good enough
to This didn't go the way that I wanted. Here's
my learnings. I'm going to move forward. As I said,
(19:58):
it's easier said than done, and sometimes it does take
a few days to be able to kind of separate that.
But it's kind it's coming back to focusing on the present,
because when you're doing that, you're just caught up in
you know, what's happened in the past, and you're making
stories up in your head. Trying to come back and
cent to yourself and come back to the present and
taking those thoughts out from that and working through them.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
How do you know when you're in a spiral like
can you think of a time when I don't know
you were last in it, or when it was particularly
hard to get out of.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
How do you know how it feels in my body?
I feel my chest is tight, I feel sad, and
I feel like really demotivated and maybe not depressed per se,
but just really down. And I know that that's not
how I usually feel. Like our body tells us. We know,
like how you feel is everything, And that's something that
(20:49):
in terms of going back to the advice that Jennie
has shared for me and what I've learned the most
from her, like that's one of the biggest things, is
going back to how do you feel? Like it's one
of the questions that comes up out of almost anything
that you're kind of working through, and so I know
what that feeling is and I can identify that, and
then it's yet working out how to get out of it.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
You spoke about not having all the balls in the
one basket in the work basket. What actions do you
take where you feel like it is leaning that way? Like,
what are the steps that you've taken in the past
to be more balanced? And I guess reduce the chance
of burnout and being in one of these virals.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
At first, it's acknowledging that all of my eggs are
in the work basket, which I'm in. Again, for anyone listening,
it's pretty hard to do that, and especially when sometimes
I think we get in this almost marta mindset of
I have to all my eggs have to be in
this basket? Do they? Why are you just telling yourself
that probably that's usually what the answer is, But I
think we have to do this, well why do you?
(21:49):
Probably not, You're just in this spiral, And so I
kind of step back and I look at, okay, what
and especially for me as well, like one of my
kind of hobbies per se is running, but running is
also a big part of my work and making content,
and so I've had to also be quite honest with
myself because sometimes I'm like, oh, no, I've got my running,
but it's like, well, no, running is also technically a
(22:11):
part of my work because you know, we've got the
Kick growing program and Kick and all the content that
I create out of that. So I step back and
I think, Okay, well, what am I doing outside of
work to fill my cut back up? And one of
the things I often find will kind of go off
and I don't know if this is the same for you,
that I will kind of first just put in the
bin per se is social time because I think I
(22:33):
don't have time to do that. And you also sometimes
when you feel exhausted, maybe because of work or whatever,
it might be the last thing you want to do
is go out for dinner or go and speak to
more people because you just want to be by yourself.
But you actually need to get out and do that.
And for me, it's been really really acknowledging that that
social time that fills my cup like that is recharging.
(22:55):
Even though it's with people and solo time is very important,
connection is also a way to fill like up that
sometimes I think when we get caught up in our
own heads, we just put it off and cancel it
because we don't think that we can show up. But
that's actually what helps well for me recharge my batteries.
So it's looking at, Okay, what am I doing, and
it's what am I spending time on. It Something that
(23:15):
I always love to think about when it comes to
hobbies or just things that can take my mind off
just the grind of the day, is what have I
done lately? Where I didn't look at the time, and
time just passed by and I didn't even realize, and
I wasn't thinking about like, oh, I need to be
productive after this, or you know, I'm only going to
do this for an hour. I didn't even notice, and
(23:36):
the day passed. I mean, I don't do a lot
of it, but when I've done pottery before, that's something
that happens. When I spend time with kids, like often,
that's also what happens painting and reading, and so I
try to get those things back in my life. But
it's important to acknowledge as well that sometimes there are
periods where work will take a lot from you. And
(23:57):
it's accepting that and honoring that, because I think when
we try and fight it it can just make it worse.
But just trying to make sure we're really honest with ourselves.
If we say I don't have time to do anything
for myself, it's really asking like why and if you
can trying to do something otherwise you won't show up
one hundred percent when you get to work. Anyway, we will.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Be back with Laura soon, and when we return, Laura
shares the rituals and habits that keep her from overloading
on work, why it's crucial to avoid responding from an
emotional state, and her top tip for starting the week
strong to ensure you actually get things done. If you're
(24:39):
looking for more tips to improve the way you work
can live. I write a short weekly newsletter that contains
tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. You can
sign up for that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha
dot com. I am curious as to how then you
(25:02):
stay disciplined with making sure that you do have time
for these other non work activities, because I think you
know and I say this as someone who I think
could do with working less hours. It's kind of it's
easy to say and it's easy to know, but then
it's hard to do. And so I can share with
you something that I have found quite useful because I
agree with social connection. It's such an energizer. And I've
(25:25):
got my family. I've got my beautiful daughter, a beautiful partner,
and they're amazing, but friends are so important. I'm an
only child, and so my friends are like family. And
I have a little ritual that I generally do it
on Mondays where I will just send a bunch of
messages to my friends and get social catch ups in
the diary, and I know that if I've got at
least one or two friend catch ups that might be
(25:48):
a walk, or it might be a meal or something else,
then that's a good week. I'm filling my social cup.
For you, Like, do you have any rituals or kind
of little hacks like that almost keep you honest away
from just overleading on work.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Oh, that's such a good thing to do, especially at
the start of the week. I think for me, it's
scheduling in at the start of the week, Like that's
the biggest hack that we can do for ourselves, because
if you don't, you never set yourself up for success,
because then you don't have any boundaries kind of in
your day. You haven't set your routine up, and then
you will every time. I mean, it's the same thing
with moving your body, right. If you don't prepare, if
(26:26):
you wake up in the morning and you don't know
what workout you're going to do, you haven't got your
clothes out, you haven't really allowed yourself enough time, and
you haven't thought through it and planned. It is so
easy to be like, oh it's too hard, I'm just
going to keep sleeping or I'm just going to hit
to work early or whatever it might be. And it's
the same thing right with everything with planning. So for
me with movement, it's making sure I've worked out where
(26:50):
that's going to fit in my week, because if I haven't,
the week will just override it. And doing that at
the start of the week. And then also the social thing.
I try and make sure I have one kind of
social connection thing during the week and then one on
the weekend as well. And it's making the effort to
put that in right and sometimes I know and I can. Again,
it comes back to how I feel in my body,
(27:10):
like when I start feeling down and tired and that
feeling like close to burnout. I look at a hang on.
If I look back at the past month or whatever,
I haven't done the things that I know can help
me work through this. So I don't always do it,
but that's a really good hack.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
I want to pick up on what you said before
about Sydney, where you have to go to Sydney, No,
you get to go to Sydney. Tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Oh, I mean that's perspective. Is everything right? And I
think when we get caught up in the busyness of like,
how many times do you ask someone how they're going
and they say busy? And I really try not to
do that because I like focusing on perspective and then
coming back to gratitude. When I focus on gratitude, I'm
(27:55):
able to be so much more present, and I'm just
able to show up in such a better way than
I do when I think, you know, the world is
happening to me, instead of being like, no, I'm happening
to the world. Like we're in control of a lot
more than we think, and so so often we think, oh,
I have to go to this meeting, I have to
go to work today, I have to go to Sydney,
(28:16):
and it's reframing that to no, I get to go
to Sydney, and yes, you know, flying in and out
in a day might be tiring, but what an amazing
opportunity to be able to go and do whatever I'm
doing there. And then I think, Okay, well, it's pretty
awesome that someone you know cares about me enough to
want me to go to Sydney and meet them. Because
then when I go, I'm not going in this headspace
(28:37):
of I don't want to be here. I'm exhausted, I'm tired,
because that's going to impact the entire day. I'm going
to have a horrible experience one million percent.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
I want to ask you about something you You wrote
this really great post on LinkedIn, which I think it
was something like ten things I now know to be
true as a CEO, something like that. I'm paraphrasing, and
one of the things you wrote. I'll read it out
because I really loved it, and I'm curious as to
how how you apply this day to day. You said,
responding in an emotional state is never a good idea.
(29:07):
Always take a moment, a few minutes, an hour a day,
depending on how you feel and the response within your body,
before you respond, Wait until you can get into a
win win mindset instead of you versus the other person mindset.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Can you tell me about that?
Speaker 1 (29:19):
How did you learn that lesson? Oh?
Speaker 2 (29:21):
I mean, I've learned it many, many, many times. I
think when things happen, it might be that I don't know,
someone responded to something in a way that you didn't
feel was fair, or you're in a negotiation and it's
not feeling whatever it might be. Usually because it feels unfair, right,
That's why we respond in that way, and the first response,
like our automatic response is oh, I need to tell them,
(29:44):
like why they've made me feel this way and why
they're wrong and etc. There is no way, like in
the art of negotiation or just generally approaching a conversation,
that if you approach a conversation like that, you were
going to get a good outcome because you're going in
wanting to I suppose you're not really wanting to the
other person, but that's kind of how you're approaching it,
because what you really want if you step back, and
(30:05):
it always comes back to this stow, which is again
in the moment. And that's why I kind of said
if it takes Amitted an hour or a day, because
sometimes things will trigger us into a really intense emotional response,
never ever, ever, ever respond in that time. It's I
don't know any time in my life when I've responded
in that while I'm in that feeling that it's been
a good outcome, or if we have got a good outcome,
(30:28):
it's just taken so long to get there. So step
out and think, Okay, yes, this person has really maybe
it's a contract negotiation, they've sent things through that have
really offended you, like they don't see my value, I'm
being taken advantage of, etcetera, etcetera. So it's stepping back
and being like, Okay, they have responded in that way,
(30:49):
so how I would have responded like that's but I'm
not going to take it personally. I'm going to come
back to what do I want to get out of
this and what do they want to get out of it?
And how can I respond in a way to pre
that's closer to that outcome? That will often help the
other person to bring down their guard, because if you
go in with your guard and you're in this attack mode,
they are going to straight get on the defense. And
(31:10):
negotiating with anyone or having a conversation when someone is
defensive is I mean, we've all been in those situations.
It's really difficult. Is very very rare you will get
anywhere right.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
How do you, I guess, almost take yourself down off
that cliff's edge when you're feeling like that. To calm
yourself down, whether it's over a period of hours or
a day or more, I.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Let myself feel the feelings. I think that's really important.
I think often we feel or we're told that we
have to. You know, we can't get upset, we can't
feel angry. They're fine. Like, you have to honor your emotions,
and often when something triggers you, it's just a I
suppose indication of something you really care about about yourself.
So I let myself feel the emotion, and depending on
(31:52):
how hard I'm feeling it, then I just I know
if I'm still like, if I'm still feeling that for
a long time, I know that I have to wait
a little bit longer. I find a good night's sleep
will help me get out of that emotional state. Most
of the time, but I wait until I don't feel
super super triggered and I suppose attacked by it and
emotional about it. I let those emotions. I honor them,
(32:13):
I let them pass there. Of course, there are times
when it doesn't pass, and that's when I actually be like, okay,
we need to move forward, Like coming back to again,
what is the outcome that they want? Like what's the
best outcome for them? What's the best outcome for me?
Like a win win mindset, and then like applying it
to that, and it is it's talking to people about it,
talking it through always helps because I think sometimes we
can get in our head and we start making up
(32:35):
all of these assumptions and all of these stories. You know,
we always say, like the truth is, there's one person's side,
the other person's side, and then there's the truth, right,
and sometimes too, what might happen? They might have triggered
something in you, and then you will then make up
this entire thing in your head that makes you really
angry and it keeps that emotion, But none of that
has happened. It's all made up in your head based
(32:57):
on how you think that personal respond or assumptions. So
it's just being able to realize that if that's lasting longer,
what that is, step out of yourself and then work
through what am I trying to get out of this?
And what do they want? But it is, as I said,
it is much harder said than done, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
I want to finish with asking. I feel like you're
the sort of person you know, given how well well
read you are and how thoughtful you are, that you
know perhaps has different mantras or sayings or ways of
being that perhaps a friend of mine at different times
in your life. I'd love to know right now. What
is a mantra or a quote or something like that
(33:37):
that is serving you particularly well right now?
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Oh, that's such a good thing. I think for me,
I'm still working through as I said, like working on
confidence and removing self doubt is still something that I'm
working on. It's a journey. So the thing that right
now that I always come back to is that I
am good enough and I'm safe, and that really helps me.
Actually that I am safe part because I think I
(34:03):
don't know what it is, but it just makes me
feel calm when I say it and I believe it,
which is you know what we want to do when
we have a mantra.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Definitely, Laura, It's made such a joy having you on.
Thank you so much for sharing this last hour with me.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Thank you, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
I hope you love this chat with Laura as much
as I did, and I know some of it really
hit close to home, such as the need to be liked.
If you want to learn more about Laura, I highly
recommend checking out her podcast, Kickpod or the kick app.
I've put links to both of those in the show notes.
(34:43):
If you like today's show, make sure you hit follow
on your podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop.
How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of
the Warrangery people, part of the cool And Nation
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com