June 11, 2025 • 34 mins
What are values really - and how do you know if you’re living in alignment with them? In this episode, I sit down with clinical psychologist Dr. Emily Musgrove (aka Dr. Em from The Imperfects) to explore how we get stuck in patterns of people-pleasing, avoiding conflict, and living on autopilot - and how to reconnect with the things that matter most.
Dr. Emily Musgrove is a clinical psychologist, author of Unstuck, and the Resident Psychologist on Australia’s top mental health podcast, The Imperfects. In this conversation, we delve into how to recognise when you're out of sync with your values, why it's challenging to break free from people-pleasing habits, and what it truly means to say no without guilt.
Dr. Em shares:
- How to tell if you’re living out of alignment with your values
- Why “health” isn’t actually a value (and what to focus on instead)
- The 80th birthday party exercise: a tool for reflecting on what really matters
- The ACT Bullseye: a practical tool for assessing how you’re living
- Dr. Em’s “corridor meditation” (and why she does it in the hallway)
- The phrase that helps Dr. Em create distance from negative thoughts
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So if I believe that I'm a failure, or if
I believe I can't do it, if I hold really
tightly onto that thought, it might mean that I don't
put my hand up for a promotion or I don't
set goals. That might be a little bit out of age.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
My guest today is clinical psychologist doctor Emily Musgrove. You
might know her as doctor M, the residents psychologist on
The Imperfect podcast, Australia's top mental health podcast with millions
of loyal listeners. Doctor M is also the author of
the new book Unstuck, and in this episode, we'll be
(00:36):
discussing how you can identify and get in touch with
your values to quite radically change your life.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Values are like heading west. We never get there. It
is just an ongoing direction to kind of return to.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
How does it show up in therapy when you're the
therapist that someone is either not in touch with their
values or is living out of alignment with them.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Usually it will be.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals
and strategies for optimizing your date. I'm your host, doctor
Amantha imber So. I want to start by talking about
therapy because in the book. You mentioned that you've seen
quite a few different therapists, and as have I, and
(01:31):
I always think, how does a therapist go about picking
the right therapist for them? What was your process?
Speaker 1 (01:38):
I mean, it's tough because the people that I would
normally refer like friends and colleagues to, I wouldn't be
able to see because they like they are my friends
or they're my peers. So certainly with my most recent
it's been asking other psychologists who they would recommend, So
it's kind of gone one step further, I suppose. But
for me, I also wanted to work with like this
(02:01):
is particularly for my most it's like I'm saying, many
of them.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
This person I've.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Seen on and off over the last couple of years,
and she uses a schema approach, which is not my
area of specialty. You know, I have some training in it,
but it's certainly not my kind of treatment modality that
I would use in depth. And so I really wanted
to work with someone that was going to work from
a different lens that I usually work with myself. And
it's been I mean, it's been so helpful, but fundamentally,
(02:27):
like as you would know, like the treatment approach is
one thing, but it's the relationship with that therapist that's
probably more profound than anything else.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
I think.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, I always feel like those first few sessions are
quite hard in terms of, oh my gosh, I have
to give my whole history all over again, and is
it worth it, and like how many sessions do you
give it? Personally to go, Yeah, this relationship with this
new therapist or psychologist is absolutely working. And I also
(02:56):
think for listeners, like how long should people be giving it?
Speaker 1 (02:59):
I think it can kind of go one of two ways.
I think sometimes you can get a vibe straight away,
like in the same way that you know, like I
think if we can be attuned to the feeling tone
that's there between you and another person, I think we
can pay attention to that. But from a therapeutic point
of view, I would say at least two sessions because
also sometimes you know, if we're like in a first session,
(03:20):
if I just get a really strong reaction, it could
be one of two things, Like it could be like
I'm getting a reaction to my own stuff or I'm
having a reaction to this person not being the right fit.
So I think sometimes that takes a bit of time
to kind of disentangle, you know, with my therapist. So
I really had a very strong sense straight straight away.
But equally, I think it depends what you're coming in with,
(03:41):
and sometimes it might take a few sessions.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yeah, how do you know when it's time to finish
a therapeutic relationship.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
From the angle of being the therapist or being the client,
I would love both angles. Yeah, it's interesting. So as
from a therapist point of view, you know, in an
ideal world is that you know, we might have frequent
sessions and then we're reviewing as we're going and looking
at kind of the goals that we're setting and how
that's sitting, and then that might expand to like monthly
or you know, kind of maybe checking in every few months.
(04:11):
But I think the question is, you know, what am
I getting out of this and what purpose is this serving?
You know, is this actually becoming more of a like
that I really enjoy my time here, or is it
this this is actually inviting our work and reflection. And
I think that if it's just like it's nice to
catch up, that's probably probably a bit of a warning
signs time to stop. But equally, like, on the other hand,
(04:34):
you know, if it feels like you're going over the
same ground again and again, and there's a sense of
feeling like nothing is changing. I think that that is
such an opportunity. Like I always remember this term from
early in my career or training, like it's all gris
for the mill, Like if something isn't working, I'm always
really encouraging of clients to tell me like, if this
(04:54):
is not feeling right, let's explore why that is. And
if it is that there's a therapeut issue between you
and I, then it may be something that we can
either work through or that it would be the best
interest of them to see someone else. So this kind
of you know, we can end treatment because we're now
doing really well, or we can end treatment because it
might be in the best interests of them to see
someone else. For me as an individual, as a client,
(05:18):
I think it would be like again, this kind of
questioning is like what am I getting out of this?
Is it serving me? Am I still on track to
those kind of original goals or do I just really enjoy.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Having a chat or like checking in with them?
Speaker 1 (05:30):
I think, yeah, good advice.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I grew up with a mum that was a clinical
psychologist and she's still in private practice, and I think
in large part that's what inspired me to become a psychologist.
I went down the organizational psychology route. Like my main
reason for doing that is that I would see the
work that my mum does, and she specializes in oncology patients,
so it's pretty intense work. And I would always think
(05:56):
to myself, how do you detach emotionally at the end
of the day, and when I assume, because I think
if you pursue a career in psychology. Certainly, back when
I was doing my studies, clinicals like was everything and
the other fields of psychology like we're very not really
known about h and I always thought, how would I
do that at the end of a really emotionally draining day,
(06:18):
And I would love to know what is your process?
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yeah, So I am quite deliberate about that. And it's
also why I don't like working from home. I very
rarely will work from home. If I'm doing telehealth, I
like to come into my office. So there's like a
real kind of sense of a boundary there. If I
am getting in the car and driving home, I make
a very deliberate point of not having anything on the
radio or listening to anything. It feels like it's just
(06:44):
a sensory overload. I've been listening all day and reflecting
and analyzing, so it feels like I need a quiet.
So then I'm kind of re entering the next part
of my day where my role is different. So I'm
coming in as mum and partner and whatever other roles
there might be. And I do have this This is
probably very similar for many people. They have to get
changed immediately. Like I can't sit in my work clothes
(07:06):
just a normal close for any longer than a second.
It's like I need to shed that part. So I think,
like symbolically even that is something. But I do definitely
do like try and have a space of meditation or
breath work kind of at a transition point after work
that I think feels really like pretty integral. I think
(07:26):
in terms of kind of holding almost like being accountable
to what I'm talking about in therapy, but also being
able to let go of some of the stuff that's happened.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, what does that process look like? Because I imagine are
the parents listening. I'm a parent as well and just
going that sounds great, but like when is you doing
that in the car when you're locked away from your family, Like,
how does that work?
Speaker 3 (07:51):
So, as you can imagine, it looks like very things.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
So in an ideal world, I will do a meditation
after the kids go to bed and then before I
kind of like join my husband and you know, I
do what that would look like me being in my
bedroom with the door closed and sitting down and doing that.
In reality, it can look like ME doing a meditation
in the hallway between the two kids' bedrooms and them
just knowing that mum's out here, but they want to
(08:16):
listen to me doing it's Yeah, so I think it's like,
how do you have a flexibility really with this that
even for a second, I'm still tuning in. And I
also kind of figured that, well, at least they know
that this is a practice that mum does. That might
at some point mean that it's helpful for them, or
that they might kind of that it's normalized. I suppose
(08:37):
in an I do world, yes, i'd be in my
bedroom on my own definitely.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Can you tell me more about this corridor meditation? What
does that look like?
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah, so it's me sitting on the floor and I
do one of two things. I either do, I'll use
a meditation timer where bells go off at intervals and
I'm just paying attention to the breath or noticing what's
happening in the mind, or or do a breath work meditation,
also using an app which is very deliberate changing of
the breath rather than just watching or.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Noticing the breath.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
But I'll definitely have like my daughter Willow should be
like mum, and I'd be like putting my hand up.
I can't change my breathing. I can't talk whilst she's
like mommm. So yeah, you know, it's not a perfect
it's not a perfect thing, but it's something in that direction.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
I love that what appsually your current favorites for.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
That, So I would use inside timer, which has the
kind of bell practice, and then I also use which
you from The Imperfect has got me onto and now
I'm quietly obsessed. It's a breathwork app called other Ship.
That's an American app. Some of it's a bit American
and some of it is amazing. So I find that
really very restorative.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
You through your work with The Imperfect, which topics that
you've spoken about publicly have I guess generated the most response.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Yeah, I was spoken about this a little bit, but
a long time ago, I did an episode on what
was called Truth versus Harmony, which was really highlighting, I guess,
the role of all the experience of self sacrifice and
people pleasing. And I think that that hit accord very
strongly with a lot of people and maybe highlighted the
(10:13):
conundrum that we get ourselves caught up in around you know,
caring for others, but also in that process sometimes not
being able to care for ourselves. So that kind of
I think that one hit a mark.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
How do you personally think about that in your own life?
Speaker 1 (10:27):
It's tricky because I imagine like a self sacrifice schemer,
for example, is very common in therapists. It's like if
you were to survey other psychologists, this is pretty a
pretty common experience. So that for me is like a
work in progress, absolutely, Like I have to work pretty
hard to not kind of move into that default mode,
which is deferring to others and avoiding conflict, Like I
(10:50):
am not a fan of conflict, and so it takes
quite a bit of effort. But I think, you know,
therapy has been really good for that, and also, like
the practice of journaling can be like I have found
that quite helpful. But even just slowing down and to
notice when I move into those like automatic patterns, And
that's probably come more from the practice of like meditation,
of being able to slow down and notice a little
(11:11):
bit more.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
I think, are there.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Any other practices or rituals that have served you well,
particularly with maintaining boundaries?
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Yeah, asking for time is good. Let me get back
to you on that. I honestly, I do think it's
like the taking of the breath, like, so just like
that micro moment has served me well. I think of
like being able to slow down, but I'm not perfect
at that by any means, Like it is very much,
you know, something that I work on. I think also,
like again, it's kind of about that space to reflect
(11:41):
upon what's this yes for? So, like is this in
service of my values? Am I saying yes because like
it's a wholehearted yes? Or am I saying yes because
I feel I should? And so that's something like that
kind of reflection is helpful. There's always going to be
like a cost somewhere, So you know, is it a
(12:03):
cost to the energy I have for my kids, or
for my husband, or for my friends or just for myself.
So I think like, in terms of practice for boundaries,
it's it is primarily that slowing down piece.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
I think, Yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Love that question. What is this yes for? Can you
give me a couple of examples of where you've had
to use that lately?
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
So I got an email request for something a few
weeks ago and I read I was like, oh, that's
like that's really cool, like I should and like automating resions,
like how am I going to create space in my
calendar for this? And then I really thought about it
and I was like, you know, like what is this
in service of? And what is it going to cost
(12:46):
me by saying yes? And I thought about it and
then I was like, what would it be like to
say no? What would show up for me if I
was to say no? And actually it was nothing. It
was like, that's an opportunity that I could have done,
but really the cost is not that great of me
saying no. But I think so often like we just
get so caught up in there the need for yes
(13:07):
without actually reflecting on what would be the cost of
the no.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Yeah, I love that. I love that answer. I guess
it's a good segue into values, which you write a
lot about in your new book, Unstark, And I've also
loved hearing you talk about values on The Imperfect. I
remember you did an episode and maybe this was a
year ago or so, but it stuck with me, and
(13:31):
you were talking about the value of health. And I've
always thought that health is one of my values. But
I remember you said health is not a value, and
it really it made me rethink a lot. So I
want to know, like, where does someone start, Because it's
easy to talk about values, but I think it's actually
really hard to identify them. And I think that most
people are probably very out of touch with their values.
(13:54):
So where is the best place to start? Really?
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Basically, I would often start with a questionnaire. Sounds like
a very kind of concrete, trivial way, but I think
it can offer us like a bit of a gateway
to more in depth explorations. So I have a questionnaire
in my book. It's based upon one of Russ Harris,
who's the author of the Happiness Strap. One of his
question is and it's pulled in from some other acceptance
and commitment therapy researchers. But you know, you can go
(14:20):
and find it online, like you know values questionnaire, and
at least that's us like a place to start to
explore basically, what is it that I want my life
to stand for? So how do I want to show up?
And it's really kind of the quality of behavior rather
than maybe a moral or a virtue. There are also
some you know, some more kind of reflective ways in
(14:42):
which we can access our values. The eightieth birthday exercises
a very common one which we'll use in therapy, but
in essence, it's asking you to reflect upon like a
milestone event in many years time, and that at this
milestone event you have, you invite friends and family to
do a speech abou and the question is what is
it that you would want them to say about you,
(15:03):
whether you're acting this way or not. Now, what is
it that you would deeply like them to say about
how you've lived your life? And often that will uncover
the things that are most important, so things like you know,
I hope to be remembered for being caring, or being
curious or being creative. And so we can kind of
use that as again as like a platform to really
(15:24):
kind of get a stronger sense like how do I
want to show up?
Speaker 2 (15:27):
I think yeah, I love that eightieth birthday party exercise
that you write about in Unstuck. How do you know, like,
how does it show up in therapy when you're the
therapist that someone is either not in touch with their
values or is living out of alignment with them. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Yeah, usually it will be that like to put a
very plan that they'll be stuck, that there'll be some
sort of stuckness here. So there's a sense here that
there's a gap between my values and my behavior. So if,
for example, we might have someone that values let's just say,
like curiosity, for example, but they're finding through a lot
(16:07):
of struggle that they're getting caught on an autopilot all
the time. Maybe they're scrolling on their phone a lot.
There's like the mood is very flat, they're kind of
going through the motions, and so it might feel there
that we've kind of lost connection with this value of curiosity,
because curiosity is one of kind of growth and openness,
whereas like through daily struggles, we can get of course
(16:28):
pulled into whatever is easiest and what feels the least painful,
and that can be avoidant behaviors. So the presence of
avoidance and behaviors that provide quick relief or relief from
some kind of pain often signal or values disconnection.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Yeah, your clients generally aware of that when when they're
describing that behavior to you, or does it often take you,
as an external trained professional to point that discrepancy out.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
I think it's both. You know, so some people will
never have thought about values before, and some people may
not actually be aware that this kind of discomfort that's
here is highlighting that they're in misalignment with their values,
whereas other people know, and that can also be really painful,
Like this recognition that I have, like these are my values,
that I'm acting inconsistently with them, and I think that
(17:24):
can kind of open people up to feeling shame or
feeling a great sadness or a disappointment. So I think
it can be both that we can have an awareness
of our values or we can just be really disconnected
from them. But where our behavior sits is another story.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
I think we will be back with M soon, and
when we come back, we will dive into her go
to tool for working with your values and how you
can take back control from the thoughts that are dragging
you down. If you're looking for more tips to improve
the way you work and live. I write a short
(17:59):
weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered that have helped
me personally. You can sign up for that at Amantha
dot com. That's Amantha dot com. One of the things
that I've heard you talk about and you write about
in Unstuck is that values are bidirectional. Can you explain
(18:22):
what that means?
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Yes? Yeah, Like, as a people pleaser, for example, we
might hold values around being kind and being caring. So
you would assume then that, like the active being kind
is towards other people, So my behavior is consistent with
the value of kindness when I'm showing up in kind
ways to other people. But what I didn't realize, and
(18:44):
what only kind of came to like to me a
few years ago, was that actually, if I value being kind,
I also value being kind to myself. And so that
might mean, for example, like boundaries, So an active kindness
might be putting a boundary in place rather than pleasing
everybody else in order to be kind. So it's a
bit of a balancing act of being able to recognize
(19:05):
and again, like tune in, am I showing out to
my values by over exerting myself all the time, Or
am I showing out to my values by saying no
or putting a boundary in place or speaking up when
someone's being rude for example? But it's a really tough ask.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Yeah, yeah, are there examples in your own life where
you feel like you have a value and then you're like, actually, no,
that's not bidirectional in terms of how I'm acting.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Oh look, I can certainly relate to the people pleasing
one absolutely that most definitely shows up to me. I
think there are times like I definitely have a value
around curiosity, And sometimes it might mean that I'm not
being curious about my own experience but just being curious
about others. And so that would be an example, because
when I'm not curious about what's happening inside my body
(19:57):
and my mind, I'm missing a whole of information. So
that would be one example. You know, there could be
values in there around like, for example, being respectful that
I might hold a value of being really respectful of others.
But when I deny my own needs, am I being
respectful to myself? So there's a whole other ways we
(20:18):
can kind of look at it, you know, in that sense.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yeah, the curiosity one is interesting. That definitely resonates with me.
It's definitely a core value. And I feel like, you know,
I mean like as a podcast host, you kind of
get you know if you do and get skilled asking questions.
But I feel like just in day to day conversations,
I will walk away from so many conversations going I
asked so many questions and I learned so much about
(20:42):
the other person, but I don't think they actually learned
that much about me, you know. And I realized, like
I studied Gastoll therapy in my twenties and just what's
stuck with me. One of the things that stuck with
me was that everything is co created. And when I
kind of go jump to blame, which is the easiest
thing to do when you're not happy about something, I
(21:02):
always step back and go, Okay, how did I contribute
to that experience? And I do wonder like can you
relate to that about like, you know, you're a psychologist,
You're used to asking questions and being curious, but.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Could you relate to that.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
And what do you do? What do you do?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah? I so relate to that because it is like
this default mode I think as therapists. We're trained to
pay attention to other people and to tune in and
to be curious and to ask questions and my like
in interactions often with friends, I have a lot of
discomfort in talking about like all this stuff. For example,
I find it very uncomfortable. I would far prefer to
(21:41):
divert to questions about what's happening for the other person,
which is fine, but you're absolutely right there is you know,
sometimes you could walk away and feel like.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Was that?
Speaker 1 (21:52):
How authentic was that? What was I trying to move
away from by asking the question? And how much did
they get to know me by me or deflecting? I
think that that's a really interesting frame there that you're
talking about, is like this kind of co creation here,
what are we co creating when one party is receiving
the other person is not.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
How do you then, like after you know you like,
you're obviously aware of this behavior, what's been your solution
asking for a friend?
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Yes, a good question, It's still it is a work
in progress. I do feel like that achievement feels really
important and being able to name like in the moment,
even like I do talk in the book and in
the work that I do like, as you would know,
like working a lot with that in a dialogue and
being able to notice and name like that in a
(22:44):
critic that's showing up, or even kind of gently using
some kind of compassionate response here does Emily, it's okay,
you can stay with this for a moment, or just
kind of noticing like my yearning to go to the
other person and just to notice and just let it
be okay, it is okay for this tension to be here.
But that's all kind of this very quick, rapid internalized
(23:04):
response which I never you know, I'm not getting this
right all the time, but it's like an intention I
think to try and slow down just to catch that
and to use some kind of like noticing language.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
I think I want to talk about some other ways
to work with values, and one of the tools that
you write about is the act Bullseye tool, which I
think is really useful. Can you explain how you work, like,
what is that tool and how do you work with Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
So it was developed by Tobias lun lunged Wren. I
think I'm going to pronounce that in correctly. Who's an
act therapist? And you know, if you imagine a bullseye.
We've got like the center circle, and then we have
concentric circles that come outwards from that, and that particular
bulls eye divides the circle into quadrants according to domains
of life, for example, So we might have relationships, work, hobbies,
(23:53):
self care, for example. And what it invites you to
do is to choose one domain and on the bullseye
where you think your behavior or how consistently you believe
your behavior is in accordance with the bulls eye. So
if you mark right in the center of that bulls eye,
you would say that my behavior is absolutely consistent with
this value here. But most often in therapy, that's not
(24:17):
what people would be marking. Most often it would be
that my behavior is on an outer ring of that bullseye.
And so the bigger the gap we get between where
my behavior is and where I'd like it to be,
usually the more distressed there is. And so, for example,
like in parenting, it might be that your values around
(24:38):
kind of showing up, so to speak, or kind of
the way your parent might be a compassionate stance, for example,
And so you may value this really deeply, but often
you might get caught up in reactivity, and so it
might mean that you're reactive with the kids and not
ever around blame, but just noticing that that behavior feels
inconsistent with the way I want to show up. And
(24:59):
so in that instance, we might be marking our like
where we are on that comfort zone further out from
where we want to be.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
That's interesting. It also makes me wonder how much the
values change. Like values obviously change over time, but from
your experience and you know, working with people as a therapist, like,
over what time frame do you see that things shift?
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Look, I actually don't know what the research says technically
around whether our values are changing across the lifespan. In
my opinion, I think that they can evolve. Certainly, we
might have some core ones that we're kind of constantly
coming back to. But I think the thing about values
is that, yes, because we're human, they can change. So
we're constantly in a state of change.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
But in terms of like.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
How that shifts back towards behavior and behavioral change. The
thing that I love about working with values is that
you can show up to your values moment to moment.
We don't have to wait for the right condition to
do it, So you know, even if, like today, I
actually consistently with my values, tomorrow I can get back
on board again. Like there's no end goal. There's values
(26:06):
are like heading west. We never get there. It is
just an ongoing direction to kind of return to. So
a little bit like this compass. So yep, you know,
I fell off the horse today, but tomorrow I just
get back on and then I see how I can
head back in the direction again. I think in therapy
what we would see is that maybe we're more consistently
noticing when we've fallen off the horse and maybe more
(26:28):
consistently making effort to get back on again. But there's never,
like ever, you know, a perfect direction to be heading.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Yeah, I want to talk about cognitive fusion and cognitive diffusion.
Can you define what cognitive fusion?
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Is?
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Yes? So, cognitive fusion is basically when we like, if
you imagine that we weld two pieces of metal together,
they're stuck together. And if we think about this in
terms of the mind and yourself when you have thought,
let's just say the thought is I'm not good enough.
Cognitive fusion is when I believe that thought to be
(27:06):
a fact, when I kind of weld myself together with
that thought, and we believe those thoughts to be true.
We hold very tightly to those thoughts as though they
are telling us a gospel for example. Yeah, so when
we hold really tightly to thoughts and we believe them
to be so true all of the time, we will
(27:27):
find that that fusion for myself with the thought really
directs our behavior and often narrows our choices. So if
I believe that I'm a failure, or if I believe
I can't do it, if I hold really tightly onto
that thought, it might mean that I don't put my
hand up for a promotion, or I don't set goals
(27:51):
that might be a little bit out of age, or
I don't pursue things. And so we can see here
where when we fuse with that thought, when I get
really entangled in that thought, it narrows what's called my
repertoire of behaviors, So my choices of behavior.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
I would love to know. I'm in the obvious question.
How how do we unfuse? How do we defuse?
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Yeah, so when we think about diffusion, basically what we're
doing is pulling apart ourself from the thoughts. So we're
gaining a space between me and the thoughts that I'm having.
And there are a multitude of ways in which we
can practice diffusion. The process of diffusion the simplest way
that I can kind of describe it. I don't actually
(28:35):
think I put this in the book, but I don't know.
If you remember, a long, long time ago at Melbourne Zoo,
they had a tiger enclosure. Every time I went as
a young kid, I would always see the tiger just
pacing up and down inside the enclosure. Yeah, that was
all it was, doing the same track up and down.
That to me is like cognitive fusion. Like I am
(28:56):
just on this narrow pathway, I'm sewing gross there's no
other choices. I'm stuck in this enclosure, in this one
little space. With cognitive diffusion, it's like we're the observer
watching the tiger going up and down. So I'm on
the other side of the glass as this visitor to
the zoo, and I'm watching the tiger go up and down,
(29:17):
up and down, but I am not the tiger. And
so diffusion is noticing that I can have the thoughts,
but I don't have to be driven by them, and
we use that, or we cultivate this kind of way
of relating through using what's called observing language or noticing language. So,
for example, if I have the thought I'm a failure,
(29:38):
I might say to myself, I'm such a failure.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
How could I do this?
Speaker 1 (29:41):
If it were to practice diffusion, it would be something like, ahuh,
I'm noticing. I'm having the thought that I'm such a failure.
So it's not banishing thoughts, getting rid of them, or
challenging them even it's just slowing it down to notice
that there is a part of me that can observe
and that gives me a little bit more spaciousness.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
I'd love to know. I mean, there are so many
different cognitive diffusion strategies and you write about a lot
of them in Unstuck. What are your go to once,
just on.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
A day to day basis, Oh, I definitely use I'm noticing.
So I would often say like, yep, thanks mind, I'm noticing.
I hear you. So it's often kind of like again,
like not punishing the thoughts for being there, but just
noticing like I hear you. Yep, that's understandable, I've got this.
So things like that, I also do find there's an
(30:31):
example in there of a very classic act intervention which
is called leaves on a stream. And this is this
idea that if you imagine sitting by the side of
a stream and you see leaves floating down the stream,
a practice which we would do in far more death
than I'm explaining right now, but that you would imagine
that anytime a thought arises into the mind, we place
(30:51):
that thought onto a leaf and we watch it float
down the stream. So it's just this practice really of
watching thoughts rather than being in thoughts. And it's with
this kind of more spacious awareness where I can observe
rather than be in it, that we really are hopefully
opening up to more choice around like what to do next,
(31:12):
and also to even examine like what's called like the
workability of thoughts. You know, if I hold tightly to
this thought, does this bring me closer to my value direction?
What happens if I loosen the grip a bit on
this thought? Could there be alternatives? Could there be other
ways here?
Speaker 2 (31:26):
I could definitely relate. Actually, I think that my go
to cognitive diffusion strategy is just putting I'm having the
thought that in front of any problematic I mean, that
sounds very judgmental, but any unhelpful thought that I am having,
and I reckon. I always use that on a weekly basis,
I reckon. Yeah, yeah, I find that helpful. I find
(31:47):
that so helpful. I feel like I've tried them all,
you know. I remember when I was learning about act
many many years ago, and you know, I've tried singing
the thoughts happy birthday and all the kind of interesting
creative ways out there. But I just I keep coming
back to that, And it's something that I've talked to
a lot of clients that invent him as well, and
I just think it's so it's so simple and helpful.
(32:08):
And I think when you learn about cognitive diffusion, the
idea that hang on thoughts are just words. Yeah, that
just seems revolutionary, even though it is also very very obvious.
So I always just keep coming back to that they're
just words.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
They are, but yet we stick to them, like, but
we also don't notice all the thoughts that we have
that we don't stick to. So like all of these
mental events just like passing through the mind, but some
of them are stickier than others.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Yeah, yeah, I always love to know, Like when you
put a book out into the world, Like, what has
resonated most with people so far? What have you found
is stuck with people from unstuck.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
I Actually, I think one of the things that's come
out most commonly has been around the inner critic and
like this role that the innocritic plays and how hard
it is for us to work with self compassion. I
think that has been something that's stuck out is that
we know from the research this self compassion is so
important not only for how we care for ourselves, but
(33:08):
also like how we can really productively show up, but
it doesn't come naturally. And so I guess like that's
probably the thing that has stood out, is that we
all have this in a critic that can really knock
us around and push us around in directions that takes
us into a place of more suffering. And I think
maybe in some ways the pathway through that has been
(33:28):
like how we work with those emotions in a really
compassionate way.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
It's been such a joy to sit down with you
after listening to so many episodes you've done on The
Imperfect and reading your book, it's just been such a
privilege to sit down and chat psychology.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
It's a privilege to be here man, I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
I hope you enjoy it this chat with doctor M.
And I personally think that if you are looking to
get stuck into your values and trying to identify what
are they really recommend trying out that eightieth birthday exercise
that she recommended. And if you want to learn more
about doctor M, check out her new book, Unstuck, and
(34:10):
links to that are in the show notes. If you
like today's show, make sure you hit follow on your
podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop. How
I Work was recorded on the traditional land of the
Warrangery people, part of the Kulin nation.
So if I believe that I'm a failure, or if
I believe I can't do it, if I hold really
tightly onto that thought, it might mean that I don't
put my hand up for a promotion or I don't
set goals. That might be a little bit out of age.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
My guest today is clinical psychologist doctor Emily Musgrove. You
might know her as doctor M, the residents psychologist on
The Imperfect podcast, Australia's top mental health podcast with millions
of loyal listeners. Doctor M is also the author of
the new book Unstuck, and in this episode, we'll be
(00:36):
discussing how you can identify and get in touch with
your values to quite radically change your life.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Values are like heading west. We never get there. It
is just an ongoing direction to kind of return to.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
How does it show up in therapy when you're the
therapist that someone is either not in touch with their
values or is living out of alignment with them.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Usually it will be.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals
and strategies for optimizing your date. I'm your host, doctor
Amantha imber So. I want to start by talking about
therapy because in the book. You mentioned that you've seen
quite a few different therapists, and as have I, and
(01:31):
I always think, how does a therapist go about picking
the right therapist for them? What was your process?
Speaker 1 (01:38):
I mean, it's tough because the people that I would
normally refer like friends and colleagues to, I wouldn't be
able to see because they like they are my friends
or they're my peers. So certainly with my most recent
it's been asking other psychologists who they would recommend, So
it's kind of gone one step further, I suppose. But
for me, I also wanted to work with like this
(02:01):
is particularly for my most it's like I'm saying, many
of them.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
This person I've.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Seen on and off over the last couple of years,
and she uses a schema approach, which is not my
area of specialty. You know, I have some training in it,
but it's certainly not my kind of treatment modality that
I would use in depth. And so I really wanted
to work with someone that was going to work from
a different lens that I usually work with myself. And
it's been I mean, it's been so helpful, but fundamentally,
(02:27):
like as you would know, like the treatment approach is
one thing, but it's the relationship with that therapist that's
probably more profound than anything else.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
I think.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, I always feel like those first few sessions are
quite hard in terms of, oh my gosh, I have
to give my whole history all over again, and is
it worth it, and like how many sessions do you
give it? Personally to go, Yeah, this relationship with this
new therapist or psychologist is absolutely working. And I also
(02:56):
think for listeners, like how long should people be giving it?
Speaker 1 (02:59):
I think it can kind of go one of two ways.
I think sometimes you can get a vibe straight away,
like in the same way that you know, like I
think if we can be attuned to the feeling tone
that's there between you and another person, I think we
can pay attention to that. But from a therapeutic point
of view, I would say at least two sessions because
also sometimes you know, if we're like in a first session,
(03:20):
if I just get a really strong reaction, it could
be one of two things, Like it could be like
I'm getting a reaction to my own stuff or I'm
having a reaction to this person not being the right fit.
So I think sometimes that takes a bit of time
to kind of disentangle, you know, with my therapist. So
I really had a very strong sense straight straight away.
But equally, I think it depends what you're coming in with,
(03:41):
and sometimes it might take a few sessions.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yeah, how do you know when it's time to finish
a therapeutic relationship.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
From the angle of being the therapist or being the client,
I would love both angles. Yeah, it's interesting. So as
from a therapist point of view, you know, in an
ideal world is that you know, we might have frequent
sessions and then we're reviewing as we're going and looking
at kind of the goals that we're setting and how
that's sitting, and then that might expand to like monthly
or you know, kind of maybe checking in every few months.
(04:11):
But I think the question is, you know, what am
I getting out of this and what purpose is this serving?
You know, is this actually becoming more of a like
that I really enjoy my time here, or is it
this this is actually inviting our work and reflection. And
I think that if it's just like it's nice to
catch up, that's probably probably a bit of a warning
signs time to stop. But equally, like, on the other hand,
(04:34):
you know, if it feels like you're going over the
same ground again and again, and there's a sense of
feeling like nothing is changing. I think that that is
such an opportunity. Like I always remember this term from
early in my career or training, like it's all gris
for the mill, Like if something isn't working, I'm always
really encouraging of clients to tell me like, if this
(04:54):
is not feeling right, let's explore why that is. And
if it is that there's a therapeut issue between you
and I, then it may be something that we can
either work through or that it would be the best
interest of them to see someone else. So this kind
of you know, we can end treatment because we're now
doing really well, or we can end treatment because it
might be in the best interests of them to see
someone else. For me as an individual, as a client,
(05:18):
I think it would be like again, this kind of
questioning is like what am I getting out of this?
Is it serving me? Am I still on track to
those kind of original goals or do I just really enjoy.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Having a chat or like checking in with them?
Speaker 1 (05:30):
I think, yeah, good advice.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I grew up with a mum that was a clinical
psychologist and she's still in private practice, and I think
in large part that's what inspired me to become a psychologist.
I went down the organizational psychology route. Like my main
reason for doing that is that I would see the
work that my mum does, and she specializes in oncology patients,
so it's pretty intense work. And I would always think
(05:56):
to myself, how do you detach emotionally at the end
of the day, and when I assume, because I think
if you pursue a career in psychology. Certainly, back when
I was doing my studies, clinicals like was everything and
the other fields of psychology like we're very not really
known about h and I always thought, how would I
do that at the end of a really emotionally draining day,
(06:18):
And I would love to know what is your process?
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yeah, So I am quite deliberate about that. And it's
also why I don't like working from home. I very
rarely will work from home. If I'm doing telehealth, I
like to come into my office. So there's like a
real kind of sense of a boundary there. If I
am getting in the car and driving home, I make
a very deliberate point of not having anything on the
radio or listening to anything. It feels like it's just
(06:44):
a sensory overload. I've been listening all day and reflecting
and analyzing, so it feels like I need a quiet.
So then I'm kind of re entering the next part
of my day where my role is different. So I'm
coming in as mum and partner and whatever other roles
there might be. And I do have this This is
probably very similar for many people. They have to get
changed immediately. Like I can't sit in my work clothes
(07:06):
just a normal close for any longer than a second.
It's like I need to shed that part. So I think,
like symbolically even that is something. But I do definitely
do like try and have a space of meditation or
breath work kind of at a transition point after work
that I think feels really like pretty integral. I think
(07:26):
in terms of kind of holding almost like being accountable
to what I'm talking about in therapy, but also being
able to let go of some of the stuff that's happened.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, what does that process look like? Because I imagine are
the parents listening. I'm a parent as well and just
going that sounds great, but like when is you doing
that in the car when you're locked away from your family, Like,
how does that work?
Speaker 3 (07:51):
So, as you can imagine, it looks like very things.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
So in an ideal world, I will do a meditation
after the kids go to bed and then before I
kind of like join my husband and you know, I
do what that would look like me being in my
bedroom with the door closed and sitting down and doing that.
In reality, it can look like ME doing a meditation
in the hallway between the two kids' bedrooms and them
just knowing that mum's out here, but they want to
(08:16):
listen to me doing it's Yeah, so I think it's like,
how do you have a flexibility really with this that
even for a second, I'm still tuning in. And I
also kind of figured that, well, at least they know
that this is a practice that mum does. That might
at some point mean that it's helpful for them, or
that they might kind of that it's normalized. I suppose
(08:37):
in an I do world, yes, i'd be in my
bedroom on my own definitely.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Can you tell me more about this corridor meditation? What
does that look like?
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah, so it's me sitting on the floor and I
do one of two things. I either do, I'll use
a meditation timer where bells go off at intervals and
I'm just paying attention to the breath or noticing what's
happening in the mind, or or do a breath work meditation,
also using an app which is very deliberate changing of
the breath rather than just watching or.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Noticing the breath.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
But I'll definitely have like my daughter Willow should be
like mum, and I'd be like putting my hand up.
I can't change my breathing. I can't talk whilst she's
like mommm. So yeah, you know, it's not a perfect
it's not a perfect thing, but it's something in that direction.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
I love that what appsually your current favorites for.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
That, So I would use inside timer, which has the
kind of bell practice, and then I also use which
you from The Imperfect has got me onto and now
I'm quietly obsessed. It's a breathwork app called other Ship.
That's an American app. Some of it's a bit American
and some of it is amazing. So I find that
really very restorative.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
You through your work with The Imperfect, which topics that
you've spoken about publicly have I guess generated the most response.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Yeah, I was spoken about this a little bit, but
a long time ago, I did an episode on what
was called Truth versus Harmony, which was really highlighting, I guess,
the role of all the experience of self sacrifice and
people pleasing. And I think that that hit accord very
strongly with a lot of people and maybe highlighted the
(10:13):
conundrum that we get ourselves caught up in around you know,
caring for others, but also in that process sometimes not
being able to care for ourselves. So that kind of
I think that one hit a mark.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
How do you personally think about that in your own life?
Speaker 1 (10:27):
It's tricky because I imagine like a self sacrifice schemer,
for example, is very common in therapists. It's like if
you were to survey other psychologists, this is pretty a
pretty common experience. So that for me is like a
work in progress, absolutely, Like I have to work pretty
hard to not kind of move into that default mode,
which is deferring to others and avoiding conflict, Like I
(10:50):
am not a fan of conflict, and so it takes
quite a bit of effort. But I think, you know,
therapy has been really good for that, and also, like
the practice of journaling can be like I have found
that quite helpful. But even just slowing down and to
notice when I move into those like automatic patterns, And
that's probably come more from the practice of like meditation,
of being able to slow down and notice a little
(11:11):
bit more.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
I think, are there.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Any other practices or rituals that have served you well,
particularly with maintaining boundaries?
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Yeah, asking for time is good. Let me get back
to you on that. I honestly, I do think it's
like the taking of the breath, like, so just like
that micro moment has served me well. I think of
like being able to slow down, but I'm not perfect
at that by any means, Like it is very much,
you know, something that I work on. I think also,
like again, it's kind of about that space to reflect
(11:41):
upon what's this yes for? So, like is this in
service of my values? Am I saying yes because like
it's a wholehearted yes? Or am I saying yes because
I feel I should? And so that's something like that
kind of reflection is helpful. There's always going to be
like a cost somewhere, So you know, is it a
(12:03):
cost to the energy I have for my kids, or
for my husband, or for my friends or just for myself.
So I think like, in terms of practice for boundaries,
it's it is primarily that slowing down piece.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
I think, Yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Love that question. What is this yes for? Can you
give me a couple of examples of where you've had
to use that lately?
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
So I got an email request for something a few
weeks ago and I read I was like, oh, that's
like that's really cool, like I should and like automating resions,
like how am I going to create space in my
calendar for this? And then I really thought about it
and I was like, you know, like what is this
in service of? And what is it going to cost
(12:46):
me by saying yes? And I thought about it and
then I was like, what would it be like to
say no? What would show up for me if I
was to say no? And actually it was nothing. It
was like, that's an opportunity that I could have done,
but really the cost is not that great of me
saying no. But I think so often like we just
get so caught up in there the need for yes
(13:07):
without actually reflecting on what would be the cost of
the no.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Yeah, I love that. I love that answer. I guess
it's a good segue into values, which you write a
lot about in your new book, Unstark, And I've also
loved hearing you talk about values on The Imperfect. I
remember you did an episode and maybe this was a
year ago or so, but it stuck with me, and
(13:31):
you were talking about the value of health. And I've
always thought that health is one of my values. But
I remember you said health is not a value, and
it really it made me rethink a lot. So I
want to know, like, where does someone start, Because it's
easy to talk about values, but I think it's actually
really hard to identify them. And I think that most
people are probably very out of touch with their values.
(13:54):
So where is the best place to start? Really?
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Basically, I would often start with a questionnaire. Sounds like
a very kind of concrete, trivial way, but I think
it can offer us like a bit of a gateway
to more in depth explorations. So I have a questionnaire
in my book. It's based upon one of Russ Harris,
who's the author of the Happiness Strap. One of his
question is and it's pulled in from some other acceptance
and commitment therapy researchers. But you know, you can go
(14:20):
and find it online, like you know values questionnaire, and
at least that's us like a place to start to
explore basically, what is it that I want my life
to stand for? So how do I want to show up?
And it's really kind of the quality of behavior rather
than maybe a moral or a virtue. There are also
some you know, some more kind of reflective ways in
(14:42):
which we can access our values. The eightieth birthday exercises
a very common one which we'll use in therapy, but
in essence, it's asking you to reflect upon like a
milestone event in many years time, and that at this
milestone event you have, you invite friends and family to
do a speech abou and the question is what is
it that you would want them to say about you,
(15:03):
whether you're acting this way or not. Now, what is
it that you would deeply like them to say about
how you've lived your life? And often that will uncover
the things that are most important, so things like you know,
I hope to be remembered for being caring, or being
curious or being creative. And so we can kind of
use that as again as like a platform to really
(15:24):
kind of get a stronger sense like how do I
want to show up?
Speaker 2 (15:27):
I think yeah, I love that eightieth birthday party exercise
that you write about in Unstuck. How do you know, like,
how does it show up in therapy when you're the
therapist that someone is either not in touch with their
values or is living out of alignment with them. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Yeah, usually it will be that like to put a
very plan that they'll be stuck, that there'll be some
sort of stuckness here. So there's a sense here that
there's a gap between my values and my behavior. So if,
for example, we might have someone that values let's just say,
like curiosity, for example, but they're finding through a lot
(16:07):
of struggle that they're getting caught on an autopilot all
the time. Maybe they're scrolling on their phone a lot.
There's like the mood is very flat, they're kind of
going through the motions, and so it might feel there
that we've kind of lost connection with this value of curiosity,
because curiosity is one of kind of growth and openness,
whereas like through daily struggles, we can get of course
(16:28):
pulled into whatever is easiest and what feels the least painful,
and that can be avoidant behaviors. So the presence of
avoidance and behaviors that provide quick relief or relief from
some kind of pain often signal or values disconnection.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Yeah, your clients generally aware of that when when they're
describing that behavior to you, or does it often take you,
as an external trained professional to point that discrepancy out.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
I think it's both. You know, so some people will
never have thought about values before, and some people may
not actually be aware that this kind of discomfort that's
here is highlighting that they're in misalignment with their values,
whereas other people know, and that can also be really painful,
Like this recognition that I have, like these are my values,
that I'm acting inconsistently with them, and I think that
(17:24):
can kind of open people up to feeling shame or
feeling a great sadness or a disappointment. So I think
it can be both that we can have an awareness
of our values or we can just be really disconnected
from them. But where our behavior sits is another story.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
I think we will be back with M soon, and
when we come back, we will dive into her go
to tool for working with your values and how you
can take back control from the thoughts that are dragging
you down. If you're looking for more tips to improve
the way you work and live. I write a short
(17:59):
weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered that have helped
me personally. You can sign up for that at Amantha
dot com. That's Amantha dot com. One of the things
that I've heard you talk about and you write about
in Unstuck is that values are bidirectional. Can you explain
(18:22):
what that means?
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Yes? Yeah, Like, as a people pleaser, for example, we
might hold values around being kind and being caring. So
you would assume then that, like the active being kind
is towards other people, So my behavior is consistent with
the value of kindness when I'm showing up in kind
ways to other people. But what I didn't realize, and
(18:44):
what only kind of came to like to me a
few years ago, was that actually, if I value being kind,
I also value being kind to myself. And so that
might mean, for example, like boundaries, So an active kindness
might be putting a boundary in place rather than pleasing
everybody else in order to be kind. So it's a
bit of a balancing act of being able to recognize
(19:05):
and again, like tune in, am I showing out to
my values by over exerting myself all the time, Or
am I showing out to my values by saying no
or putting a boundary in place or speaking up when
someone's being rude for example? But it's a really tough ask.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Yeah, yeah, are there examples in your own life where
you feel like you have a value and then you're like, actually, no,
that's not bidirectional in terms of how I'm acting.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Oh look, I can certainly relate to the people pleasing
one absolutely that most definitely shows up to me. I
think there are times like I definitely have a value
around curiosity, And sometimes it might mean that I'm not
being curious about my own experience but just being curious
about others. And so that would be an example, because
when I'm not curious about what's happening inside my body
(19:57):
and my mind, I'm missing a whole of information. So
that would be one example. You know, there could be
values in there around like, for example, being respectful that
I might hold a value of being really respectful of others.
But when I deny my own needs, am I being
respectful to myself? So there's a whole other ways we
(20:18):
can kind of look at it, you know, in that sense.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yeah, the curiosity one is interesting. That definitely resonates with me.
It's definitely a core value. And I feel like, you know,
I mean like as a podcast host, you kind of
get you know if you do and get skilled asking questions.
But I feel like just in day to day conversations,
I will walk away from so many conversations going I
asked so many questions and I learned so much about
(20:42):
the other person, but I don't think they actually learned
that much about me, you know. And I realized, like
I studied Gastoll therapy in my twenties and just what's
stuck with me. One of the things that stuck with
me was that everything is co created. And when I
kind of go jump to blame, which is the easiest
thing to do when you're not happy about something, I
(21:02):
always step back and go, Okay, how did I contribute
to that experience? And I do wonder like can you
relate to that about like, you know, you're a psychologist,
You're used to asking questions and being curious, but.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Could you relate to that.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
And what do you do? What do you do?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah? I so relate to that because it is like
this default mode I think as therapists. We're trained to
pay attention to other people and to tune in and
to be curious and to ask questions and my like
in interactions often with friends, I have a lot of
discomfort in talking about like all this stuff. For example,
I find it very uncomfortable. I would far prefer to
(21:41):
divert to questions about what's happening for the other person,
which is fine, but you're absolutely right there is you know,
sometimes you could walk away and feel like.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Was that?
Speaker 1 (21:52):
How authentic was that? What was I trying to move
away from by asking the question? And how much did
they get to know me by me or deflecting? I
think that that's a really interesting frame there that you're
talking about, is like this kind of co creation here,
what are we co creating when one party is receiving
the other person is not.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
How do you then, like after you know you like,
you're obviously aware of this behavior, what's been your solution
asking for a friend?
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Yes, a good question, It's still it is a work
in progress. I do feel like that achievement feels really
important and being able to name like in the moment,
even like I do talk in the book and in
the work that I do like, as you would know,
like working a lot with that in a dialogue and
being able to notice and name like that in a
(22:44):
critic that's showing up, or even kind of gently using
some kind of compassionate response here does Emily, it's okay,
you can stay with this for a moment, or just
kind of noticing like my yearning to go to the
other person and just to notice and just let it
be okay, it is okay for this tension to be here.
But that's all kind of this very quick, rapid internalized
(23:04):
response which I never you know, I'm not getting this
right all the time, but it's like an intention I
think to try and slow down just to catch that
and to use some kind of like noticing language.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
I think I want to talk about some other ways
to work with values, and one of the tools that
you write about is the act Bullseye tool, which I
think is really useful. Can you explain how you work, like,
what is that tool and how do you work with Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
So it was developed by Tobias lun lunged Wren. I
think I'm going to pronounce that in correctly. Who's an
act therapist? And you know, if you imagine a bullseye.
We've got like the center circle, and then we have
concentric circles that come outwards from that, and that particular
bulls eye divides the circle into quadrants according to domains
of life, for example, So we might have relationships, work, hobbies,
(23:53):
self care, for example. And what it invites you to
do is to choose one domain and on the bullseye
where you think your behavior or how consistently you believe
your behavior is in accordance with the bulls eye. So
if you mark right in the center of that bulls eye,
you would say that my behavior is absolutely consistent with
this value here. But most often in therapy, that's not
(24:17):
what people would be marking. Most often it would be
that my behavior is on an outer ring of that bullseye.
And so the bigger the gap we get between where
my behavior is and where I'd like it to be,
usually the more distressed there is. And so, for example,
like in parenting, it might be that your values around
(24:38):
kind of showing up, so to speak, or kind of
the way your parent might be a compassionate stance, for example,
And so you may value this really deeply, but often
you might get caught up in reactivity, and so it
might mean that you're reactive with the kids and not
ever around blame, but just noticing that that behavior feels
inconsistent with the way I want to show up. And
(24:59):
so in that instance, we might be marking our like
where we are on that comfort zone further out from
where we want to be.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
That's interesting. It also makes me wonder how much the
values change. Like values obviously change over time, but from
your experience and you know, working with people as a therapist, like,
over what time frame do you see that things shift?
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Look, I actually don't know what the research says technically
around whether our values are changing across the lifespan. In
my opinion, I think that they can evolve. Certainly, we
might have some core ones that we're kind of constantly
coming back to. But I think the thing about values
is that, yes, because we're human, they can change. So
we're constantly in a state of change.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
But in terms of like.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
How that shifts back towards behavior and behavioral change. The
thing that I love about working with values is that
you can show up to your values moment to moment.
We don't have to wait for the right condition to
do it, So you know, even if, like today, I
actually consistently with my values, tomorrow I can get back
on board again. Like there's no end goal. There's values
(26:06):
are like heading west. We never get there. It is
just an ongoing direction to kind of return to. So
a little bit like this compass. So yep, you know,
I fell off the horse today, but tomorrow I just
get back on and then I see how I can
head back in the direction again. I think in therapy
what we would see is that maybe we're more consistently
noticing when we've fallen off the horse and maybe more
(26:28):
consistently making effort to get back on again. But there's never,
like ever, you know, a perfect direction to be heading.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Yeah, I want to talk about cognitive fusion and cognitive diffusion.
Can you define what cognitive fusion?
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Is?
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Yes? So, cognitive fusion is basically when we like, if
you imagine that we weld two pieces of metal together,
they're stuck together. And if we think about this in
terms of the mind and yourself when you have thought,
let's just say the thought is I'm not good enough.
Cognitive fusion is when I believe that thought to be
(27:06):
a fact, when I kind of weld myself together with
that thought, and we believe those thoughts to be true.
We hold very tightly to those thoughts as though they
are telling us a gospel for example. Yeah, so when
we hold really tightly to thoughts and we believe them
to be so true all of the time, we will
(27:27):
find that that fusion for myself with the thought really
directs our behavior and often narrows our choices. So if
I believe that I'm a failure, or if I believe
I can't do it, if I hold really tightly onto
that thought, it might mean that I don't put my
hand up for a promotion, or I don't set goals
(27:51):
that might be a little bit out of age, or
I don't pursue things. And so we can see here
where when we fuse with that thought, when I get
really entangled in that thought, it narrows what's called my
repertoire of behaviors, So my choices of behavior.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
I would love to know. I'm in the obvious question.
How how do we unfuse? How do we defuse?
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Yeah, so when we think about diffusion, basically what we're
doing is pulling apart ourself from the thoughts. So we're
gaining a space between me and the thoughts that I'm having.
And there are a multitude of ways in which we
can practice diffusion. The process of diffusion the simplest way
that I can kind of describe it. I don't actually
(28:35):
think I put this in the book, but I don't know.
If you remember, a long, long time ago at Melbourne Zoo,
they had a tiger enclosure. Every time I went as
a young kid, I would always see the tiger just
pacing up and down inside the enclosure. Yeah, that was
all it was, doing the same track up and down.
That to me is like cognitive fusion. Like I am
(28:56):
just on this narrow pathway, I'm sewing gross there's no
other choices. I'm stuck in this enclosure, in this one
little space. With cognitive diffusion, it's like we're the observer
watching the tiger going up and down. So I'm on
the other side of the glass as this visitor to
the zoo, and I'm watching the tiger go up and down,
(29:17):
up and down, but I am not the tiger. And
so diffusion is noticing that I can have the thoughts,
but I don't have to be driven by them, and
we use that, or we cultivate this kind of way
of relating through using what's called observing language or noticing language. So,
for example, if I have the thought I'm a failure,
(29:38):
I might say to myself, I'm such a failure.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
How could I do this?
Speaker 1 (29:41):
If it were to practice diffusion, it would be something like, ahuh,
I'm noticing. I'm having the thought that I'm such a failure.
So it's not banishing thoughts, getting rid of them, or
challenging them even it's just slowing it down to notice
that there is a part of me that can observe
and that gives me a little bit more spaciousness.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
I'd love to know. I mean, there are so many
different cognitive diffusion strategies and you write about a lot
of them in Unstuck. What are your go to once,
just on.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
A day to day basis, Oh, I definitely use I'm noticing.
So I would often say like, yep, thanks mind, I'm noticing.
I hear you. So it's often kind of like again,
like not punishing the thoughts for being there, but just
noticing like I hear you. Yep, that's understandable, I've got this.
So things like that, I also do find there's an
(30:31):
example in there of a very classic act intervention which
is called leaves on a stream. And this is this
idea that if you imagine sitting by the side of
a stream and you see leaves floating down the stream,
a practice which we would do in far more death
than I'm explaining right now, but that you would imagine
that anytime a thought arises into the mind, we place
(30:51):
that thought onto a leaf and we watch it float
down the stream. So it's just this practice really of
watching thoughts rather than being in thoughts. And it's with
this kind of more spacious awareness where I can observe
rather than be in it, that we really are hopefully
opening up to more choice around like what to do next,
(31:12):
and also to even examine like what's called like the
workability of thoughts. You know, if I hold tightly to
this thought, does this bring me closer to my value direction?
What happens if I loosen the grip a bit on
this thought? Could there be alternatives? Could there be other
ways here?
Speaker 2 (31:26):
I could definitely relate. Actually, I think that my go
to cognitive diffusion strategy is just putting I'm having the
thought that in front of any problematic I mean, that
sounds very judgmental, but any unhelpful thought that I am having,
and I reckon. I always use that on a weekly basis,
I reckon. Yeah, yeah, I find that helpful. I find
(31:47):
that so helpful. I feel like I've tried them all,
you know. I remember when I was learning about act
many many years ago, and you know, I've tried singing
the thoughts happy birthday and all the kind of interesting
creative ways out there. But I just I keep coming
back to that, And it's something that I've talked to
a lot of clients that invent him as well, and
I just think it's so it's so simple and helpful.
(32:08):
And I think when you learn about cognitive diffusion, the
idea that hang on thoughts are just words. Yeah, that
just seems revolutionary, even though it is also very very obvious.
So I always just keep coming back to that they're
just words.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
They are, but yet we stick to them, like, but
we also don't notice all the thoughts that we have
that we don't stick to. So like all of these
mental events just like passing through the mind, but some
of them are stickier than others.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Yeah, yeah, I always love to know, Like when you
put a book out into the world, Like, what has
resonated most with people so far? What have you found
is stuck with people from unstuck.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
I Actually, I think one of the things that's come
out most commonly has been around the inner critic and
like this role that the innocritic plays and how hard
it is for us to work with self compassion. I
think that has been something that's stuck out is that
we know from the research this self compassion is so
important not only for how we care for ourselves, but
(33:08):
also like how we can really productively show up, but
it doesn't come naturally. And so I guess like that's
probably the thing that has stood out, is that we
all have this in a critic that can really knock
us around and push us around in directions that takes
us into a place of more suffering. And I think
maybe in some ways the pathway through that has been
(33:28):
like how we work with those emotions in a really
compassionate way.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
It's been such a joy to sit down with you
after listening to so many episodes you've done on The
Imperfect and reading your book, it's just been such a
privilege to sit down and chat psychology.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
It's a privilege to be here man, I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
I hope you enjoy it this chat with doctor M.
And I personally think that if you are looking to
get stuck into your values and trying to identify what
are they really recommend trying out that eightieth birthday exercise
that she recommended. And if you want to learn more
about doctor M, check out her new book, Unstuck, and
(34:10):
links to that are in the show notes. If you
like today's show, make sure you hit follow on your
podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop. How
I Work was recorded on the traditional land of the
Warrangery people, part of the Kulin nation.
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