March 26, 2025 • 34 mins
When asked to describe yourself, is one of the first things you mention your job? Why do so many of us form such a strong connection between our identity and our work? And more importantly, is that actually healthy?
To explore the complex relationship between self-identity and work, I'm joined by my good friend Sabina Read for another thought-provoking conversation.
Sabina is a clinical psychologist who shares her expertise weekly on 3AW and through her popular podcast "Human Cogs."
In this episode, we dive into crucial questions about work identity:
- How to tell if your job is consuming too much of your sense of self
- Practical strategies to create healthy boundaries between work and identity
- If having a personally aligned career can lead to a lack of balance
- How to identify if you are letting your vocation swallow your sense of self
- 1 simple step you can take to make sure your job doesn’t define you entirely
I found Sabina's positive take on work-identity integration particularly fascinating, as it offers a counterpoint to concerns I've personally wrestled with. Whether you're deeply aligned with your career or seeking more separation between who you are and what you do, this conversation offers valuable insights for navigating your relationship with work.
Key Quotes:
“I don’t know where Sabina starts and psychologist ends.”
“If you’re doing that kind of work and your energy feels depleted. I don’t know if I call that identity alignment with your job. I call that work-aholic.”
Connect with Sabina via her website, instagram, or check out her podcast Human Cogs.
My latest book The Health Habit is out now. You can order a copy here: https://www.amantha.com/the-health-habit/
Connect with me on the socials: Linkedin (https://www.linkedin.com/in/amanthaimber)
Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/amanthai)
If you are looking for more tips to improve the way you work and live, I write a weekly newsletter where I share practical and simple to apply tips to improve your life. You can sign up for that at https://amantha-imber.ck.page/subscribe
Visit https://www.amantha.com/podcast for full show notes from all episodes.
Get in touch at amantha@inventium.com.au
Credits:
Host: Amantha Imber
Sound Engineer: The Podcast Butler
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
When asked to describe yourself, is one of the first
things you mention your job? Why does so many of
us form such a strong connection between our identity and
our work? And more importantly, is that actually healthy? To
explore the complex relationship between self, identity and work, I'm
(00:22):
joined by my very good friend Sabina Read for another
thought provoking conversation. Sabina is a clinical psychologist who shares
her expertise weekly on threeaw and through her popular podcast
Human Cogs. Sabina is going to be returning occasionally to
help me deep dive and answer these kinds of nuanced topics.
(00:43):
So if you've got a question or something that you
want answered by a couple of psychologists, send us a
message using the email in the show notes. In this episode,
we explore whether your work is taking up too much
of your personal identity, a simple way to do if
your job.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Is consuming your sense of.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Self, and how to separate your work from your identity.
Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals,
and strategies for optimizing your dat I'm your host, doctor
Amantha Imber. We can all agree that work can become
(01:25):
a big part of our lives and our identity. But
where does that come from and what drives it. To
begin exploring this, Sabina wanted to explain the driving factor
many of us experience, the need to find a job
that perfectly aligns with who we are.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I think for so many of us, we have this
fanciful idea and a job that it's going to be
perfectly aligned to who we are. And in so many ways,
people also talk about partners and homes, have this idea
that there's one soulmate for us, there's one perfect house
to live in, there's one perfect partner, and this job
that's going to be everything we need it to be.
(02:09):
And we've got this idea now that that job will
probably be the perfect job because it's so aligned to
who we are at our very core. But of course
with that alignment comes shadowside as well. So I'll give
an example for me. I'm a psychologist. I feel like
(02:29):
I've always been a psychologist before I was a psychologist.
That's kind of what led me, led me to the
work that I do. That I had these skills and
these passions, and then that led me to train and
decide to get paid for what I do so much
so now that I don't know where Sabina starts and
(02:50):
psychologists ends. And I use the term psychologists very broadly,
not therapist, but in all the work that I do,
so human behavior expert. Where that starts and where I
don't know because when I sit down on a plane
and I sit next to the person next to me,
I'm off, you know, so tell me about that, and
(03:12):
two minutes later I want to know about their relationship
with their mother. You know, good luck to them if
it's an international flight, because then I get the whole
family truck.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Didn't he befriend an air hostess?
Speaker 3 (03:22):
I did? I did, I did recently, and he was
such a beautiful, beautiful man. We spent about three hours
talking and he ended up talking to me about potentially
him coming out as a gay man, but not being
sure if that would be accepted with his family room.
You know, it was a very personal, meaningful conversation. That's
(03:45):
a good example exactly. And I could have just sat
there and taken the chicken or fish like everyone else does,
bear a good little person on the aeroplane. But no, no,
he started by saying something around you know, you've got
a good energy, or like the way you said hi
or something, and then you know I don't need much
(04:06):
and I'm I'm on and it's not pretend, it's not forced.
It feels really in Asian, very natural. But I think
why I was interested in this topic of how much
is my identity my job and vice versa is because,
of course, as psychologists, we know that we learn things
along the way, and have we learned What kind of
(04:28):
reward feedback have I got? I mean, of course I
probably get some kind of dopamine hits when people share
and confide and connect. My greatest value is connection. So
I'm connecting with people. It feels good for me, it
feels good for them. Then, also because I share things
in the media and on socials, people will often say
(04:51):
to me, oh, you're doing such fascinating work. I know
they say this to you as well, and then I
feel like you're saying that because I've put my work
out there as a content creator, so many people are
doing fascinating work. But because I'm sharing it, I'm now
getting that positive feedback as well. The question is how
much of the job that I do, the job title
(05:13):
that I do is truly me And I believe there
are strengths to being very aligned to my vocation or
to a vocation, and there's a shadow side as well.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yeah, I can relate to what a lot of what
you're saying.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
And minus the air hostess. Yeah, they don't call them
hostess as anyone. Flight attendant, flight attendant sorry, yes, flight attendant.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yes, although because I'm far more introveted than you, I
will not strike up conversations with strangers ever. But yeah,
I've always felt very very closely aligned that what I
do for work is a very big part of who
I am as a person. And like you said, in
some ways that is wonderful because spends so much of
(06:01):
our adult waking hours doing work. But it's also I
think puts you in quite a vulnerable position in that
that like I don't have any form of like I
feel like you know, if I stopped work tomorrow, I'd
be very lost and my self esteem might crumble. So
(06:23):
it's something I've thought a lot about, and I'm keen
to know, like, what are strategies that we can use
if perhaps you are someone that can relate to us
where your self identity is very very wrapped up in
what you do for work, not that we're saying that
is a bad thing, but there is a shadow side.
So I'm curious, like in your own life, looking at
(06:46):
the shadow side, have you done anything well?
Speaker 3 (06:50):
One of the questions I've asked myself if I wasn't,
aside from being a psychologist, who am I? This is deeper,
This is deeper question, but they have to be because
you know, we can't just skip through the gillips on
this one. Even if you ask anyone who am I,
most people give you a response with regards to a
(07:12):
role in their life. I'm a mother, I'm a wife,
I'm a psychologist, I'm a daughter, I'm a neighbor, I'm
a friend. There are all roles that we play. When
we attach our identity to a role or a multitude
of roles, then in the context of what you and
I are talking about, if that role disappears, I disappear.
(07:33):
And this is really relevant, whether it's as someone who
aligns neatly with their work, but also in the space
of grief. If I'm no longer a daughter, who am I?
If that was a big role that I played, or
whatever the other relational roles are. And so I think
for people across the entire last band. I think this
(07:54):
is important conversation to have with children as well. Actually
is who are we separate to our roles and our achievements?
And when we ask people that, when I've asked people
that most people are quite stuck. I don't know. I
don't even know what you mean by that question. I've
been told before. So then I would be inviting us
to think about the qualities that I am that are
(08:18):
not beholden or attached to those roles in my life.
So I like to think that I am compassionate, curious, fun, thoughtful, loyal,
you know whatever. These traits can't be taken from me
when a role is taken from me, or if I
lose a role, because they're within me, they're not in
(08:41):
response to things that I do.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
I want to pick up on what you said about
self identity being linked to achievement because I feel like
I can very.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Much relate to that. And I feel like a lot
of people that are successful.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
In their career or have you risen to the top
of their field, that they probably received a lot of
positive reinforcement for achieving things when they are a child.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
And that's definitely something I can relate.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
To and you know, it's kind of chasing, I guess
the eternal sense of parental approval, which.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
I do feel like I have, but clearly I mean,
you've got that.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Now, I've got that, Like I mean, I feel unconditional
love for my parents.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
But you know, I'm sure that there's a part.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Of me that's like, well, I need to keep achieving
to maintain that love, which is which is irrational.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
It's probably not irrational because it's how you learn to
be in the world, and we're all the same, we
just we learn different. So I think it's better not
to skate over that and say yeah, I know that,
to cut it doesn't make sense anymore. It's how we
learn to survive. If you're not an only child, the
dynamics you have with siblings plays a big part too.
But if you are an only child that plays its
(09:53):
own role around not having that comparison peace and there's
no one else to you better step up because they
don't have a know other child is going to bring
home the gold medal.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
It's you.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
And when you've got siblings, I think once one role
has been taken by one sibling, subsequent children sort of
say that gig's been taken, I'll choose another persona to
play out in this. So we needed these behaviors to
survive in our own families, and then we tend to
carry these behaviors with us into adulthood. And that bit
(10:24):
doesn't make sense. We don't need them in the same
way now. But I think we need to honor with
gratitude why these behaviors came to be in the first place.
The need to achieve served us well. Then the question
is do I need to continue repeating that now?
Speaker 1 (10:39):
I think something else that maybe confuses me sometimes is
I think about how much time goes into my work,
a lot of time, and then I think about what
are my values? What are the things that matter most
to me? And my family is at the top of
that list.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
It's not work.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
And I'll make choices where I put work in front
of my family. Like if I'm I don't know, accepting
a keynote speaking gig, which means I have to be
away from my partner and daughter for a night for
like as a really simple example, and I find that
really challenging.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
And I think.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Also, and I mean, you know, this has been said
by so many parents and particularly mothers in the past,
it's like work gives me a clear sense of progress,
but I do not have that as a parent. And
I think how I've started to think about that is
I think I'm trying to tune more into the special moments,
(11:38):
particularly with Frankie, like in my role as her mum.
Like I had this moment on the weekend where we
went on a mother daughter movie date and we don't
go on those all that often, so it was quite special,
just the two of us, you know, no friends of
hers brought along, and she's at this great age, is
(11:59):
nearly a life and yeah, she's just like parroting some
of the dialogue to me to try to be funny
and just you know, just like mucking around. And I
just had this thought, It's like, ah, this isn't gonna
last forever. She's going to be a teenager, so I'm
just gonna think that I'm really embarrassing and that it's
not cool to like, you know, muck around with your
(12:21):
mum and be funny together. And you know, I was
just sort of overcome with this emotion and this sentimentality
and just going this is a precious moment right now,
I'm going to treasure it, and I feel like it's
like that is the closest equivalent I can get to
the sense of achievement that I get at work when
(12:41):
you know, I look at quantitative data, whether that's feedback
scores or financials or whatever it might be, to go, yeah,
I've done a good job. I've like, you know, got
this award, I've got this external externale validation. And I
think that's what I'm trying to think about to have
some sort of equivalence in the nonwork domains.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Of my life. And I relate to a lot of
what you just said. My kids, as you know, twenty
two and twenty four, so we've moved through deenage years.
They're back now and I'm still embarrassing, but they embrace it.
But the bit that you said then that landed kind
of hard for me is that sometimes I choose work.
(13:23):
I choose work first, and I'm not as interested in
the metrics as you are. I think we know that
I'm interested in the connection and the growth and the
shared experience that I have in my work with corporate
clients and media settings and keynotes and workshops and things.
(13:46):
And I've got a level of shame saying that out loud,
But because you shared it, I'm sharing it too. Look,
I could throw around some metrics for what you just
described with Frankie. The metric for me would be the
way she was looking at you and engaging you and
perroshing as you said, whatever was in the mood she
(14:08):
was saying, be with me, I'm here with you. That's
the metric, and it don't fit in a spreadsheet. And
I know if I had a dollar for every time
an older woman said to me when my kids were
at all, it goes so fast, make the most of it,
enjoy it, make you know it's precious time. And all
(14:31):
of the times as a parent you're thinking not feeling
so freaking precious at the moment, feeling like it's got
another nine hours to go into a better those moments
that were hard. And yet now I'm one of those
middle aged women saying it goes so quickly. So the
metrics are different. And we got onto this cheat We've
gone everywhere. We got onto this because we're talking about
(14:53):
how aligned we are to our work and how our
work feels like an extension of who we are. The
foundation of that is the reward system. That we get
from it, and not just in metrics, but in those
things that I said, For me, connection and knowing that
you're impacting another's life, it's important, it's meaningful, but it
(15:14):
also comes with high reward. You know, it's a dopamine hit.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
We will be back with Savina soon, and when we return,
we'll explore whether we should all be searching for the
perfect identity aligned job, how to tell if your work
is consuming your sense of self, and a simple step
to make sure your job doesn't define you entirely. If
(15:39):
you're looking for more tips to improve the way you
work can live, I write a short weekly newsletter that
contains tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. You
can sign up for that at Amantha dot com. That's
Amantha dot com. I would love to talk about just
(15:59):
some different ways that perhaps we can start to pull
apart our self identity from our work that I've been
thinking about, and I'd love to get your feedback on these.
So one thing I've been thinking about is this idea
of identity diversification. Like just like if you see a
(16:20):
financial advisor, they're like, well, diversification, that's the smartest strategy.
I think about the risks of putting all your self
identity eggs in one basket, and what happens if something
goes wrong in that realm Like that is probably not
a good recipe for you know, building resilience.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Well, you and I both have so called portfolio careers.
Well I describe Do you describe your work like that?
Speaker 2 (16:46):
I don't, but I relate to that.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Okay, I do. Maybe because you're under the inventing umbrella
you don't. But for me, I think all of these
things that I do are quite separate. So if I
lost my capacity to speak on stage, let's say, maybe
I can still speak into a microphone, or if.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
I look at strange injuries. This I don't know.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
I don't know. I can't think. But you said if
I lost the capacity, Okay, I'm not quite sure how
to tap into this for the work that you and
I do. But if you're, for instance, a surgeon, and
somehow you lose your dexterity, of your finger dexterity, you
can't actually perform surgery anymore, then you really are having to.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
More than diversify.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
You're going to have to think how am I going
to use my knowledge and my skills. I've not thought
about this before, but let's just say that happens to
a surgeon. They then could choose to teach other people.
They could bring their years of knowledge of sitting with
patients and share insights about that patient journey, so they
could be working with the patient or other surgeons without
(17:55):
using their fingers. And I think for all of us,
there are ways that we could continue to use our
skill set and our passion. But then, actually, as I'm
saying this, it loops me back to what I already feel,
which is this targe alignment with human behavior psychological expertise.
I think it will follow me if I'm carrioaking off
flying on a plane. I'm still bringing this to the table.
(18:18):
And so the other question is, and what's wrong with that?
I wanted to play out the pros and the constant
strengths and the shadow side in this. If you know
so many people, I've worked with people around that. I
worked as the ambassador at SEAK for seven years, so
I did a lot. I had a lot of conversations
in a lot of forums with people around their career trajectories,
and so many people talk about wanting to find work
(18:40):
that's meaningful, that reflects their values, that's an extension of
who they are, that they feel motivated to get up
in the morning and do that they're not doing to
play someone else. These are all things that I feel
in my work. So I'm asking the universe and you
and myself, why do I need to dial that down?
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Okay? I think there are couple of reasons. Why.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Firstly, does it lead to a lack of balance? Like,
can it lead to workaholism?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
You know?
Speaker 1 (19:06):
I feel like in twenty twenty four I worked more
hours than I would care to admit, and I was
very unbalanced, and I was most of the time not
happy about that, but I felt like I.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Had to do it.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
Okay, So where we get our energy from? If you're
doing that kind of work and your energy feels depleted,
and we did a prior app on burnout, so we
know that story. I don't know if I call that
identity alignment with your job. I called that workaholic, and
that's what you called it. So I think it also
(19:37):
depends on how we feel, how energized we feel doing
the work that we do. But if I'm being really honest,
it also depends on the people who love us most
and how they feel about the work that we do too.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
I just feel like there's a huge vulnerability that comes
with it.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Like I look at close.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Friends of mine who have been through job loss or
retrenchment or you know, any number of those things, and
you know, I think most people in their lives have
been through something like that. And you know, the ones
that I've seen struggle the most are the ones that
most closely have their self identity aligned to their work.
(20:16):
You know, I think, you know, we talked about in
an earlier episode on Burnout just around you know, one
of my fears last year, you know, going to worst
case scenarios, like what if Inventium doesn't exist? Who am
I without inventingum? And like, yes, I could get to
the answers, but it wasn't easy.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Why does it have to be I like that, you're.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Challenging me, But yeah, I can only think of shoulds,
like it should be like this, or it should be
like that, or I.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Should do That's my biggest swear word.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
You're like, I got nothing.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
I got nothing there, I got nothing.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
It's like I should I should have more diversification in
my identity.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
I think it's worth really exploring where that should come
from and if it comes from fear based thinking, which
we've talked about before, because I think I'll be caught out.
You know, I tend to think with an abundant mindset.
I'm not tapping into some area of research in positive psychology.
It's just how I think. So my belief is that
if one door closes, another one will open. I genuinely
(21:17):
believe that, so I don't think as much through that
fear lens. So for now, I feel very aligned to
psychological work. And if at some point I can do that,
I'll explore that then, but I won't live in the
wadifs now around that issue.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
So are you saying then that there is no issue
having your work? I'm just.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
I think the bit that's the greatest vulnerability or potential
pain point is losing sense of self, letting your vocation,
your job, your title, your role swallow you whole.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
How would you know if that's happening, Well.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
I think you would lose connection with other people, meaningful
people in your life, which is a cousin of workoholism
as well.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Hmmm.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
And to understand what is the driver here? Is the
driver another hit of dopamine, or is the driver to
learn and grow to understand what drives us and then
to think about where else I can honor those drivers.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
So this is something else I think about, like in
terms of the idea of mastery. And we can obviously
get a lot of satisfaction from our work if we're
mastering new things. But then back to this idea of diversification,
like I've deliberately in the last six or so months
tried to pick up a newish hobby or as it
was a hobby when I was a child, you a
(22:44):
lot of sewing, and I was quite inspired when I
went over to Vietnam and all the places that are
set up to make these garments that I want to
get back into sewing I want to do. I don't
want to do that, and so that's become, I guess,
an area of mastery outside of work, which I've really
(23:05):
liked for a couple of reasons. Firstly because it's not
just all about work, but secondly, as someone that works
with ideas and intangibles, it's been really rewarding to just
do something with my hands and feel and physically see
a sense of progress with this new skill. So I
(23:27):
found that very useful, and that's been a really deliberate
choice to go. I want to get some mastery outside
of my work, because most of the things that I
do to learn and grow their work oriented. I'm literally
just doing it so that I can create things and
so that I'm good enough. So I'm relearning skills because
you can't sew and not like know how to I
(23:50):
don't know do a seme or you know, put a
pattern together, and so it's relearning a lot of those
things and trying to go a little bit deeper.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Yeah. I like the idea of diversification of skill and experiences,
that we try new things not to be the master
at them, but just to see how they feel.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Something I think about is with the like important relationships
and friendships in our life is I think about where
if they come from, and I think if too many
of those are work related, then it kind of sets
off an alarm bell in my head to go, hmm,
am I if it's about me or if it's about
someone else, you know, is it about too myopic a
(24:30):
focus on work? If I look across all my friendships
and hang on, they're all work friendships? And they all
do the same job that I do, or they're all
in the same industry. And so I think that's also
something that I've deliberately tried to cultivate, where I look
at my friends and there they're really quite different in
what they do. Like, yes, there's a cluster of say,
(24:52):
female business owners, who you know, I dearly love, and
I've got a little community of them. And yes, you know,
I probably over index on psychologists that of friends, but
different like an org psych is really different to a
clinical psyche, for example. But then otherwise there's quite a
bit of diversity, and I feel like I've deliberately tried
to do that.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Is this something you think about in your life.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
I don't have many psych friends. It's really interesting you
talk about diversity and friendship. I'm drawn to people for
a myriad of reasons, and it's not their sav or
the qualifications that they have. I've probably got to know
more people, probably more in sort of the I would
say more org psych space because it's what I'm in now,
(25:35):
but I wouldn't even call them org psychs. They're people
who have an interest in human behavior and well being,
in stress, in relationships, in our working lives. But I've
also got a whole bunch of friends that do you
name a job, and they do it. So I feel
conflicted in this conversation because I feel extremely aligned to
my identity as a psychologist, of broadly speaking, but I
(25:59):
also experience a lot of diversity in my work and
in my friendships and in my day to day even
in my data. Every day is different, no days the same,
So I feel like I've got a lot of breadth
and variability. Even though I feel I tightly hold on
or I think others would say I tightly hold on
to the psychological knowledge, I think there's something interesting as psychologists.
(26:23):
Psychology is just the study of human behavior, the way
we think, feel, and behave. That's it, full stop. And
for me, that's such a winner, and it's so fascinating
because you can hang it on any part of your life,
on anyone's life. Now, if you're a chef, you talk
about food, and you could talk about what the meaning
of food is and what kind of foods you grew
up on and ways to cook different dishes and things,
(26:44):
but it doesn't apply to every part of life. In
the same way, if you're a police person, there's a
lot of elements, a lot of layers, but there's something
about psychology more broadly speaking, that touches every part of
our no disrespect to police or shit, but that touches
very part of our lives. So it's endlessly fascinating to
me of the all of the parts of life that
(27:07):
it touches. So it doesn't feel linear like that. But
I might just be trying to talk myself out of it,
and I'm open to you and.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Talk me back off, back off.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
The cych shelf. What I know.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
I'm wondering because there are probably people listening that do
not feel a connection to their work, do not feel
it's their calling, do not feel it is the be
all and end all.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Is that a problem? Should they be searching for?
Speaker 1 (27:41):
You know, the affinity that you have with psychology for example.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
No, not necessarily, but I think I think, you know,
we work a third of our lives. We want to
do something that brings us some level of learnings. I
don't want to sound evangelical about it or too much
like swallowed the pop psychology cool aid, but I do
think there's something around enjoyment, meaning, purpose, connection, impact that
(28:09):
are pretty core universal human drivers and for me, that's
kind of a mindset we bring to their work that
we do. I was having my nails done recently, which,
as you know, is something that I have done since
I was fifteen. Just it's sort of just a thing
that I do that gives me a moment to myself
and makes me feel good. It's so simple, it's ridiculous. Anyway,
(28:31):
the woman that was panning the aile, she said, these
look really good. I'm really proud of myself. She was
really rating her polish work. And I'm just a normal
nail polish, no fancy, no nothing, just polish in a bottle.
And I was so struck with how much pride. And
she shared that with me, and I thought, that's it.
(28:53):
I don't know if she, you know, he feels highly
overly aligned with herself as a manicurist. But I think
that's what we're probably all needing. Some part of is, yeah,
I did good today and I've impacted another person in
some way. And she nailed that.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
They'll be see. She knows it physically, she nailed it.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
But as I said at the outset, if we talk
too much, if we have this idea that we must
find a job that is totally aligned with who we
are and makes our souls sing every day. And you know,
I sometimes joke and prasos that I give that wouldn't
it be great if it gets to Friday night and
we're all like, no, no, it's Friday. It's Friday night,
(29:38):
And I don't want it to be Friday because that
means the weekend I have to until Monday. Yeah, that's
probably not in either. It's something around learning and impacting
others full stop.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
How much of it do you think is the job
versus the organization that you're in, Like, let's just say
your job is not calling, but you have, you know,
a deep connection to the company and the team and
the people that you work with.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Is that good enough? Do you think?
Speaker 3 (30:10):
Well? I like the phrase good enough. It's a phrase
I use often because, you know, instead of saying, is
that what we're striving for? Is that the gold gold
star of jobs. I don't think there's a one size
fits all response to that question. I think it depends
on what matters most to us. So it goes back
to this story of values. If your values are around what.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Did you say, like you feel a deep connection to
the culture and the people that you work with.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Yeah, so if your top values are around connection and
so just feeling like you're part of a team, you're
all on the same page, you're moving towards the same goals,
that might be what floats your boat more than anything.
If your top values around innovation and you're just kind
of moving with the gang, that could be very frustrating.
And yeah, I think the culture of where we work
(30:55):
makes it a very big difference. I mean, we know
one of the raisins people they've worked most often is
a boss that's not aligned to how they work.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Like, you must get so many people coming up to
you after presentations or workshops and going, I'm just not
happy in my job or I'm not happy in this company.
What questions do you ask them and what advice do
you find yourself giving.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Well, that often does happen, and it usually happens in
a toilet cubicle, So they kind of follow you into
the toilet and then that guy loved what you said
and they're like, can I just ask you a question?
And it's the closest sort of safe room that they found,
or maybe it's just because that's where I go after
I present. I'm not sure, I've never done a study
on that. I would invite people to come back to
(31:39):
self and it sounds so simple and almost try it.
What's not working for you? What's the pain point? And
what are the barriers that are stopping you exploring and
actioning change? And I don't expect that I'd get a
short answer and cubicle to those questions. I don't know
another way except to explore or you know, these things
(32:01):
that drive us and motivate us, and then these things
that create barriers. It's kind of the simplest way I
know to think about the choices we make and the
changes that elude us, and then to revisit you and
I've talked about before, this sense of agency and accountability
in our own lives. No one else is at this
(32:21):
steering wheel but us, and it's very easy to point
the finger out when really we might do better to
point the finger at ourselves with compassion and curiosity, not blame.
We're in charge, not a dress rehearsal.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
I love that as advice.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Step into the cubicle anytime I got more.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
So good to chat to you about all things self,
identity and work.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
It's really great to sit here and hear, and you know,
one of the things I love about our friendship and
our connection. We have different ideas, we challenge each other,
and I need that in my life. I know that
in my friendships, and I think it's good pod chat
as well. So thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
I hope you loved this discussion with Sabina as much
as I did, and I know it's given me a
fresh perspective on my own identity. And if you enjoyed
this chat, I can definitely recommend that you check out
our earlier discussion on burnout where Sabina asked me all
about my burnout experience.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
You can find a.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Link to that in the show notes, and I'll be
getting Sabina back throughout the year to help me answer
your questions. So if you have a question or something
you'd like us to cover, send us a message.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Using the email address in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
If you like today's show, make sure you get follow
on your podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
How I Work was recorded
Speaker 1 (33:56):
On the traditional land of the Warrangery People, part of
the Cooler Nation
When asked to describe yourself, is one of the first
things you mention your job? Why does so many of
us form such a strong connection between our identity and
our work? And more importantly, is that actually healthy? To
explore the complex relationship between self, identity and work, I'm
(00:22):
joined by my very good friend Sabina Read for another
thought provoking conversation. Sabina is a clinical psychologist who shares
her expertise weekly on threeaw and through her popular podcast
Human Cogs. Sabina is going to be returning occasionally to
help me deep dive and answer these kinds of nuanced topics.
(00:43):
So if you've got a question or something that you
want answered by a couple of psychologists, send us a
message using the email in the show notes. In this episode,
we explore whether your work is taking up too much
of your personal identity, a simple way to do if
your job.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Is consuming your sense of.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Self, and how to separate your work from your identity.
Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals,
and strategies for optimizing your dat I'm your host, doctor
Amantha Imber. We can all agree that work can become
(01:25):
a big part of our lives and our identity. But
where does that come from and what drives it. To
begin exploring this, Sabina wanted to explain the driving factor
many of us experience, the need to find a job
that perfectly aligns with who we are.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I think for so many of us, we have this
fanciful idea and a job that it's going to be
perfectly aligned to who we are. And in so many ways,
people also talk about partners and homes, have this idea
that there's one soulmate for us, there's one perfect house
to live in, there's one perfect partner, and this job
that's going to be everything we need it to be.
(02:09):
And we've got this idea now that that job will
probably be the perfect job because it's so aligned to
who we are at our very core. But of course
with that alignment comes shadowside as well. So I'll give
an example for me. I'm a psychologist. I feel like
(02:29):
I've always been a psychologist before I was a psychologist.
That's kind of what led me, led me to the
work that I do. That I had these skills and
these passions, and then that led me to train and
decide to get paid for what I do so much
so now that I don't know where Sabina starts and
(02:50):
psychologists ends. And I use the term psychologists very broadly,
not therapist, but in all the work that I do,
so human behavior expert. Where that starts and where I
don't know because when I sit down on a plane
and I sit next to the person next to me,
I'm off, you know, so tell me about that, and
(03:12):
two minutes later I want to know about their relationship
with their mother. You know, good luck to them if
it's an international flight, because then I get the whole
family truck.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Didn't he befriend an air hostess?
Speaker 3 (03:22):
I did? I did, I did recently, and he was
such a beautiful, beautiful man. We spent about three hours
talking and he ended up talking to me about potentially
him coming out as a gay man, but not being
sure if that would be accepted with his family room.
You know, it was a very personal, meaningful conversation. That's
(03:45):
a good example exactly. And I could have just sat
there and taken the chicken or fish like everyone else does,
bear a good little person on the aeroplane. But no, no,
he started by saying something around you know, you've got
a good energy, or like the way you said hi
or something, and then you know I don't need much
(04:06):
and I'm I'm on and it's not pretend, it's not forced.
It feels really in Asian, very natural. But I think
why I was interested in this topic of how much
is my identity my job and vice versa is because,
of course, as psychologists, we know that we learn things
along the way, and have we learned What kind of
(04:28):
reward feedback have I got? I mean, of course I
probably get some kind of dopamine hits when people share
and confide and connect. My greatest value is connection. So
I'm connecting with people. It feels good for me, it
feels good for them. Then, also because I share things
in the media and on socials, people will often say
(04:51):
to me, oh, you're doing such fascinating work. I know
they say this to you as well, and then I
feel like you're saying that because I've put my work
out there as a content creator, so many people are
doing fascinating work. But because I'm sharing it, I'm now
getting that positive feedback as well. The question is how
much of the job that I do, the job title
(05:13):
that I do is truly me And I believe there
are strengths to being very aligned to my vocation or
to a vocation, and there's a shadow side as well.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yeah, I can relate to what a lot of what
you're saying.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
And minus the air hostess. Yeah, they don't call them
hostess as anyone. Flight attendant, flight attendant sorry, yes, flight attendant.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yes, although because I'm far more introveted than you, I
will not strike up conversations with strangers ever. But yeah,
I've always felt very very closely aligned that what I
do for work is a very big part of who
I am as a person. And like you said, in
some ways that is wonderful because spends so much of
(06:01):
our adult waking hours doing work. But it's also I
think puts you in quite a vulnerable position in that
that like I don't have any form of like I
feel like you know, if I stopped work tomorrow, I'd
be very lost and my self esteem might crumble. So
(06:23):
it's something I've thought a lot about, and I'm keen
to know, like, what are strategies that we can use
if perhaps you are someone that can relate to us
where your self identity is very very wrapped up in
what you do for work, not that we're saying that
is a bad thing, but there is a shadow side.
So I'm curious, like in your own life, looking at
(06:46):
the shadow side, have you done anything well?
Speaker 3 (06:50):
One of the questions I've asked myself if I wasn't,
aside from being a psychologist, who am I? This is deeper,
This is deeper question, but they have to be because
you know, we can't just skip through the gillips on
this one. Even if you ask anyone who am I,
most people give you a response with regards to a
(07:12):
role in their life. I'm a mother, I'm a wife,
I'm a psychologist, I'm a daughter, I'm a neighbor, I'm
a friend. There are all roles that we play. When
we attach our identity to a role or a multitude
of roles, then in the context of what you and
I are talking about, if that role disappears, I disappear.
(07:33):
And this is really relevant, whether it's as someone who
aligns neatly with their work, but also in the space
of grief. If I'm no longer a daughter, who am I?
If that was a big role that I played, or
whatever the other relational roles are. And so I think
for people across the entire last band. I think this
(07:54):
is important conversation to have with children as well. Actually
is who are we separate to our roles and our achievements?
And when we ask people that, when I've asked people
that most people are quite stuck. I don't know. I
don't even know what you mean by that question. I've
been told before. So then I would be inviting us
to think about the qualities that I am that are
(08:18):
not beholden or attached to those roles in my life.
So I like to think that I am compassionate, curious, fun, thoughtful, loyal,
you know whatever. These traits can't be taken from me
when a role is taken from me, or if I
lose a role, because they're within me, they're not in
(08:41):
response to things that I do.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
I want to pick up on what you said about
self identity being linked to achievement because I feel like
I can very.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Much relate to that. And I feel like a lot
of people that are successful.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
In their career or have you risen to the top
of their field, that they probably received a lot of
positive reinforcement for achieving things when they are a child.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
And that's definitely something I can relate.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
To and you know, it's kind of chasing, I guess
the eternal sense of parental approval, which.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
I do feel like I have, but clearly I mean,
you've got that.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Now, I've got that, Like I mean, I feel unconditional
love for my parents.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
But you know, I'm sure that there's a part.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Of me that's like, well, I need to keep achieving
to maintain that love, which is which is irrational.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
It's probably not irrational because it's how you learn to
be in the world, and we're all the same, we
just we learn different. So I think it's better not
to skate over that and say yeah, I know that,
to cut it doesn't make sense anymore. It's how we
learn to survive. If you're not an only child, the
dynamics you have with siblings plays a big part too.
But if you are an only child that plays its
(09:53):
own role around not having that comparison peace and there's
no one else to you better step up because they
don't have a know other child is going to bring
home the gold medal.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
It's you.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
And when you've got siblings, I think once one role
has been taken by one sibling, subsequent children sort of
say that gig's been taken, I'll choose another persona to
play out in this. So we needed these behaviors to
survive in our own families, and then we tend to
carry these behaviors with us into adulthood. And that bit
(10:24):
doesn't make sense. We don't need them in the same
way now. But I think we need to honor with
gratitude why these behaviors came to be in the first place.
The need to achieve served us well. Then the question
is do I need to continue repeating that now?
Speaker 1 (10:39):
I think something else that maybe confuses me sometimes is
I think about how much time goes into my work,
a lot of time, and then I think about what
are my values? What are the things that matter most
to me? And my family is at the top of
that list.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
It's not work.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
And I'll make choices where I put work in front
of my family. Like if I'm I don't know, accepting
a keynote speaking gig, which means I have to be
away from my partner and daughter for a night for
like as a really simple example, and I find that
really challenging.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
And I think.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Also, and I mean, you know, this has been said
by so many parents and particularly mothers in the past,
it's like work gives me a clear sense of progress,
but I do not have that as a parent. And
I think how I've started to think about that is
I think I'm trying to tune more into the special moments,
(11:38):
particularly with Frankie, like in my role as her mum.
Like I had this moment on the weekend where we
went on a mother daughter movie date and we don't
go on those all that often, so it was quite special,
just the two of us, you know, no friends of
hers brought along, and she's at this great age, is
(11:59):
nearly a life and yeah, she's just like parroting some
of the dialogue to me to try to be funny
and just you know, just like mucking around. And I
just had this thought, It's like, ah, this isn't gonna
last forever. She's going to be a teenager, so I'm
just gonna think that I'm really embarrassing and that it's
not cool to like, you know, muck around with your
(12:21):
mum and be funny together. And you know, I was
just sort of overcome with this emotion and this sentimentality
and just going this is a precious moment right now,
I'm going to treasure it, and I feel like it's
like that is the closest equivalent I can get to
the sense of achievement that I get at work when
(12:41):
you know, I look at quantitative data, whether that's feedback
scores or financials or whatever it might be, to go, yeah,
I've done a good job. I've like, you know, got
this award, I've got this external externale validation. And I
think that's what I'm trying to think about to have
some sort of equivalence in the nonwork domains.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Of my life. And I relate to a lot of
what you just said. My kids, as you know, twenty
two and twenty four, so we've moved through deenage years.
They're back now and I'm still embarrassing, but they embrace it.
But the bit that you said then that landed kind
of hard for me is that sometimes I choose work.
(13:23):
I choose work first, and I'm not as interested in
the metrics as you are. I think we know that
I'm interested in the connection and the growth and the
shared experience that I have in my work with corporate
clients and media settings and keynotes and workshops and things.
(13:46):
And I've got a level of shame saying that out loud,
But because you shared it, I'm sharing it too. Look,
I could throw around some metrics for what you just
described with Frankie. The metric for me would be the
way she was looking at you and engaging you and
perroshing as you said, whatever was in the mood she
(14:08):
was saying, be with me, I'm here with you. That's
the metric, and it don't fit in a spreadsheet. And
I know if I had a dollar for every time
an older woman said to me when my kids were
at all, it goes so fast, make the most of it,
enjoy it, make you know it's precious time. And all
(14:31):
of the times as a parent you're thinking not feeling
so freaking precious at the moment, feeling like it's got
another nine hours to go into a better those moments
that were hard. And yet now I'm one of those
middle aged women saying it goes so quickly. So the
metrics are different. And we got onto this cheat We've
gone everywhere. We got onto this because we're talking about
(14:53):
how aligned we are to our work and how our
work feels like an extension of who we are. The
foundation of that is the reward system. That we get
from it, and not just in metrics, but in those
things that I said, For me, connection and knowing that
you're impacting another's life, it's important, it's meaningful, but it
(15:14):
also comes with high reward. You know, it's a dopamine hit.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
We will be back with Savina soon, and when we return,
we'll explore whether we should all be searching for the
perfect identity aligned job, how to tell if your work
is consuming your sense of self, and a simple step
to make sure your job doesn't define you entirely. If
(15:39):
you're looking for more tips to improve the way you
work can live, I write a short weekly newsletter that
contains tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. You
can sign up for that at Amantha dot com. That's
Amantha dot com. I would love to talk about just
(15:59):
some different ways that perhaps we can start to pull
apart our self identity from our work that I've been
thinking about, and I'd love to get your feedback on these.
So one thing I've been thinking about is this idea
of identity diversification. Like just like if you see a
(16:20):
financial advisor, they're like, well, diversification, that's the smartest strategy.
I think about the risks of putting all your self
identity eggs in one basket, and what happens if something
goes wrong in that realm Like that is probably not
a good recipe for you know, building resilience.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Well, you and I both have so called portfolio careers.
Well I describe Do you describe your work like that?
Speaker 2 (16:46):
I don't, but I relate to that.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Okay, I do. Maybe because you're under the inventing umbrella
you don't. But for me, I think all of these
things that I do are quite separate. So if I
lost my capacity to speak on stage, let's say, maybe
I can still speak into a microphone, or if.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
I look at strange injuries. This I don't know.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
I don't know. I can't think. But you said if
I lost the capacity, Okay, I'm not quite sure how
to tap into this for the work that you and
I do. But if you're, for instance, a surgeon, and
somehow you lose your dexterity, of your finger dexterity, you
can't actually perform surgery anymore, then you really are having to.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
More than diversify.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
You're going to have to think how am I going
to use my knowledge and my skills. I've not thought
about this before, but let's just say that happens to
a surgeon. They then could choose to teach other people.
They could bring their years of knowledge of sitting with
patients and share insights about that patient journey, so they
could be working with the patient or other surgeons without
(17:55):
using their fingers. And I think for all of us,
there are ways that we could continue to use our
skill set and our passion. But then, actually, as I'm
saying this, it loops me back to what I already feel,
which is this targe alignment with human behavior psychological expertise.
I think it will follow me if I'm carrioaking off
flying on a plane. I'm still bringing this to the table.
(18:18):
And so the other question is, and what's wrong with that?
I wanted to play out the pros and the constant
strengths and the shadow side in this. If you know
so many people, I've worked with people around that. I
worked as the ambassador at SEAK for seven years, so
I did a lot. I had a lot of conversations
in a lot of forums with people around their career trajectories,
and so many people talk about wanting to find work
(18:40):
that's meaningful, that reflects their values, that's an extension of
who they are, that they feel motivated to get up
in the morning and do that they're not doing to
play someone else. These are all things that I feel
in my work. So I'm asking the universe and you
and myself, why do I need to dial that down?
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Okay? I think there are couple of reasons. Why.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Firstly, does it lead to a lack of balance? Like,
can it lead to workaholism?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
You know?
Speaker 1 (19:06):
I feel like in twenty twenty four I worked more
hours than I would care to admit, and I was
very unbalanced, and I was most of the time not
happy about that, but I felt like I.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Had to do it.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
Okay, So where we get our energy from? If you're
doing that kind of work and your energy feels depleted,
and we did a prior app on burnout, so we
know that story. I don't know if I call that
identity alignment with your job. I called that workaholic, and
that's what you called it. So I think it also
(19:37):
depends on how we feel, how energized we feel doing
the work that we do. But if I'm being really honest,
it also depends on the people who love us most
and how they feel about the work that we do too.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
I just feel like there's a huge vulnerability that comes
with it.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Like I look at close.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Friends of mine who have been through job loss or
retrenchment or you know, any number of those things, and
you know, I think most people in their lives have
been through something like that. And you know, the ones
that I've seen struggle the most are the ones that
most closely have their self identity aligned to their work.
(20:16):
You know, I think, you know, we talked about in
an earlier episode on Burnout just around you know, one
of my fears last year, you know, going to worst
case scenarios, like what if Inventium doesn't exist? Who am
I without inventingum? And like, yes, I could get to
the answers, but it wasn't easy.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Why does it have to be I like that, you're.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Challenging me, But yeah, I can only think of shoulds,
like it should be like this, or it should be
like that, or I.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Should do That's my biggest swear word.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
You're like, I got nothing.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
I got nothing there, I got nothing.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
It's like I should I should have more diversification in
my identity.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
I think it's worth really exploring where that should come
from and if it comes from fear based thinking, which
we've talked about before, because I think I'll be caught out.
You know, I tend to think with an abundant mindset.
I'm not tapping into some area of research in positive psychology.
It's just how I think. So my belief is that
if one door closes, another one will open. I genuinely
(21:17):
believe that, so I don't think as much through that
fear lens. So for now, I feel very aligned to
psychological work. And if at some point I can do that,
I'll explore that then, but I won't live in the
wadifs now around that issue.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
So are you saying then that there is no issue
having your work? I'm just.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
I think the bit that's the greatest vulnerability or potential
pain point is losing sense of self, letting your vocation,
your job, your title, your role swallow you whole.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
How would you know if that's happening, Well.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
I think you would lose connection with other people, meaningful
people in your life, which is a cousin of workoholism
as well.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Hmmm.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
And to understand what is the driver here? Is the
driver another hit of dopamine, or is the driver to
learn and grow to understand what drives us and then
to think about where else I can honor those drivers.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
So this is something else I think about, like in
terms of the idea of mastery. And we can obviously
get a lot of satisfaction from our work if we're
mastering new things. But then back to this idea of diversification,
like I've deliberately in the last six or so months
tried to pick up a newish hobby or as it
was a hobby when I was a child, you a
(22:44):
lot of sewing, and I was quite inspired when I
went over to Vietnam and all the places that are
set up to make these garments that I want to
get back into sewing I want to do. I don't
want to do that, and so that's become, I guess,
an area of mastery outside of work, which I've really
(23:05):
liked for a couple of reasons. Firstly because it's not
just all about work, but secondly, as someone that works
with ideas and intangibles, it's been really rewarding to just
do something with my hands and feel and physically see
a sense of progress with this new skill. So I
(23:27):
found that very useful, and that's been a really deliberate
choice to go. I want to get some mastery outside
of my work, because most of the things that I
do to learn and grow their work oriented. I'm literally
just doing it so that I can create things and
so that I'm good enough. So I'm relearning skills because
you can't sew and not like know how to I
(23:50):
don't know do a seme or you know, put a
pattern together, and so it's relearning a lot of those
things and trying to go a little bit deeper.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Yeah. I like the idea of diversification of skill and experiences,
that we try new things not to be the master
at them, but just to see how they feel.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Something I think about is with the like important relationships
and friendships in our life is I think about where
if they come from, and I think if too many
of those are work related, then it kind of sets
off an alarm bell in my head to go, hmm,
am I if it's about me or if it's about
someone else, you know, is it about too myopic a
(24:30):
focus on work? If I look across all my friendships
and hang on, they're all work friendships? And they all
do the same job that I do, or they're all
in the same industry. And so I think that's also
something that I've deliberately tried to cultivate, where I look
at my friends and there they're really quite different in
what they do. Like, yes, there's a cluster of say,
(24:52):
female business owners, who you know, I dearly love, and
I've got a little community of them. And yes, you know,
I probably over index on psychologists that of friends, but
different like an org psych is really different to a
clinical psyche, for example. But then otherwise there's quite a
bit of diversity, and I feel like I've deliberately tried
to do that.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Is this something you think about in your life.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
I don't have many psych friends. It's really interesting you
talk about diversity and friendship. I'm drawn to people for
a myriad of reasons, and it's not their sav or
the qualifications that they have. I've probably got to know
more people, probably more in sort of the I would
say more org psych space because it's what I'm in now,
(25:35):
but I wouldn't even call them org psychs. They're people
who have an interest in human behavior and well being,
in stress, in relationships, in our working lives. But I've
also got a whole bunch of friends that do you
name a job, and they do it. So I feel
conflicted in this conversation because I feel extremely aligned to
my identity as a psychologist, of broadly speaking, but I
(25:59):
also experience a lot of diversity in my work and
in my friendships and in my day to day even
in my data. Every day is different, no days the same,
So I feel like I've got a lot of breadth
and variability. Even though I feel I tightly hold on
or I think others would say I tightly hold on
to the psychological knowledge, I think there's something interesting as psychologists.
(26:23):
Psychology is just the study of human behavior, the way
we think, feel, and behave. That's it, full stop. And
for me, that's such a winner, and it's so fascinating
because you can hang it on any part of your life,
on anyone's life. Now, if you're a chef, you talk
about food, and you could talk about what the meaning
of food is and what kind of foods you grew
up on and ways to cook different dishes and things,
(26:44):
but it doesn't apply to every part of life. In
the same way, if you're a police person, there's a
lot of elements, a lot of layers, but there's something
about psychology more broadly speaking, that touches every part of
our no disrespect to police or shit, but that touches
very part of our lives. So it's endlessly fascinating to
me of the all of the parts of life that
(27:07):
it touches. So it doesn't feel linear like that. But
I might just be trying to talk myself out of it,
and I'm open to you and.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Talk me back off, back off.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
The cych shelf. What I know.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
I'm wondering because there are probably people listening that do
not feel a connection to their work, do not feel
it's their calling, do not feel it is the be
all and end all.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Is that a problem? Should they be searching for?
Speaker 1 (27:41):
You know, the affinity that you have with psychology for example.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
No, not necessarily, but I think I think, you know,
we work a third of our lives. We want to
do something that brings us some level of learnings. I
don't want to sound evangelical about it or too much
like swallowed the pop psychology cool aid, but I do
think there's something around enjoyment, meaning, purpose, connection, impact that
(28:09):
are pretty core universal human drivers and for me, that's
kind of a mindset we bring to their work that
we do. I was having my nails done recently, which,
as you know, is something that I have done since
I was fifteen. Just it's sort of just a thing
that I do that gives me a moment to myself
and makes me feel good. It's so simple, it's ridiculous. Anyway,
(28:31):
the woman that was panning the aile, she said, these
look really good. I'm really proud of myself. She was
really rating her polish work. And I'm just a normal
nail polish, no fancy, no nothing, just polish in a bottle.
And I was so struck with how much pride. And
she shared that with me, and I thought, that's it.
(28:53):
I don't know if she, you know, he feels highly
overly aligned with herself as a manicurist. But I think
that's what we're probably all needing. Some part of is, yeah,
I did good today and I've impacted another person in
some way. And she nailed that.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
They'll be see. She knows it physically, she nailed it.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
But as I said at the outset, if we talk
too much, if we have this idea that we must
find a job that is totally aligned with who we
are and makes our souls sing every day. And you know,
I sometimes joke and prasos that I give that wouldn't
it be great if it gets to Friday night and
we're all like, no, no, it's Friday. It's Friday night,
(29:38):
And I don't want it to be Friday because that
means the weekend I have to until Monday. Yeah, that's
probably not in either. It's something around learning and impacting
others full stop.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
How much of it do you think is the job
versus the organization that you're in, Like, let's just say
your job is not calling, but you have, you know,
a deep connection to the company and the team and
the people that you work with.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Is that good enough? Do you think?
Speaker 3 (30:10):
Well? I like the phrase good enough. It's a phrase
I use often because, you know, instead of saying, is
that what we're striving for? Is that the gold gold
star of jobs. I don't think there's a one size
fits all response to that question. I think it depends
on what matters most to us. So it goes back
to this story of values. If your values are around what.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Did you say, like you feel a deep connection to
the culture and the people that you work with.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Yeah, so if your top values are around connection and
so just feeling like you're part of a team, you're
all on the same page, you're moving towards the same goals,
that might be what floats your boat more than anything.
If your top values around innovation and you're just kind
of moving with the gang, that could be very frustrating.
And yeah, I think the culture of where we work
(30:55):
makes it a very big difference. I mean, we know
one of the raisins people they've worked most often is
a boss that's not aligned to how they work.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Like, you must get so many people coming up to
you after presentations or workshops and going, I'm just not
happy in my job or I'm not happy in this company.
What questions do you ask them and what advice do
you find yourself giving.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Well, that often does happen, and it usually happens in
a toilet cubicle, So they kind of follow you into
the toilet and then that guy loved what you said
and they're like, can I just ask you a question?
And it's the closest sort of safe room that they found,
or maybe it's just because that's where I go after
I present. I'm not sure, I've never done a study
on that. I would invite people to come back to
(31:39):
self and it sounds so simple and almost try it.
What's not working for you? What's the pain point? And
what are the barriers that are stopping you exploring and
actioning change? And I don't expect that I'd get a
short answer and cubicle to those questions. I don't know
another way except to explore or you know, these things
(32:01):
that drive us and motivate us, and then these things
that create barriers. It's kind of the simplest way I
know to think about the choices we make and the
changes that elude us, and then to revisit you and
I've talked about before, this sense of agency and accountability
in our own lives. No one else is at this
(32:21):
steering wheel but us, and it's very easy to point
the finger out when really we might do better to
point the finger at ourselves with compassion and curiosity, not blame.
We're in charge, not a dress rehearsal.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
I love that as advice.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Step into the cubicle anytime I got more.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
So good to chat to you about all things self,
identity and work.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
It's really great to sit here and hear, and you know,
one of the things I love about our friendship and
our connection. We have different ideas, we challenge each other,
and I need that in my life. I know that
in my friendships, and I think it's good pod chat
as well. So thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
I hope you loved this discussion with Sabina as much
as I did, and I know it's given me a
fresh perspective on my own identity. And if you enjoyed
this chat, I can definitely recommend that you check out
our earlier discussion on burnout where Sabina asked me all
about my burnout experience.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
You can find a.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Link to that in the show notes, and I'll be
getting Sabina back throughout the year to help me answer
your questions. So if you have a question or something
you'd like us to cover, send us a message.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Using the email address in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
If you like today's show, make sure you get follow
on your podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
How I Work was recorded
Speaker 1 (33:56):
On the traditional land of the Warrangery People, part of
the Cooler Nation
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