02: Wrong Decision

Former Constable Larry Blandford will never forget the night Amy died, saying he never believed she killed herself. Now retired, he reveals what really happened and how the mishandling of her death continues to haunt those involved.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast contains information and details relating to suicide. We
urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline on
thirteen eleven fourteen thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at
lifeline dot org dot au. A twenty four year old

(00:29):
devoted mother of two fleeing a violent relationship as a
bags pack car running her daughters strapped into the backseat.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
Mom told me that she needed to go back inside
to grab something.

Speaker 3 (00:50):
Panic.

Speaker 4 (00:51):
I Amy is dead, Sir aim his dead?

Speaker 5 (00:53):
Eight Confusion World about five minutes, say sit not to
suicide one hundred percent.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
This is emersing. What do you think is really the
honest truth about Amy? The Truth About Amy?

Speaker 6 (01:14):
Episode two.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
I'm Liam Bartlett and.

Speaker 6 (01:22):
I'm Alison Sandy.

Speaker 7 (01:28):
At the next intersection, turn left.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
It's a sunny still day as we head to Serpentine
on the way to the house where Amy Wensley died.

Speaker 8 (01:40):
Turnal left.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
It rained the day before, so there's a heavy smell
of petrocore, a unique earthy scent mixed with the rich
eucalyptus so abundant in Australian flora. This area is alive
with wildlife and despite the rain, the landscape is still

(02:02):
dry dotted with autumn colored trees, green, yellow, and a
rusty red. The semi rural estate owned by Robert Simmons,
comprises more than two hundred thousand square meetings or about
twenty hectares, and there's a long driveway heading up to

(02:24):
the impressive pale yellow weatherboard, six bedroom, three bathroom, two
story home. There's a dam, a riding arena for horses,
and of course, a large industrial shed just next door
to the prefabricated house where Amy lived with her daughters

(02:46):
and David Simmons back in twenty fourteen. It's only about
the size of a two bedroom unit, and Mark, a
kind octogenarian who now lives there, agrees to take us
on a quick tour. This is beautiful, he tells Allison
how much he loves the location, especially being so close

(03:09):
to the rest of his family.

Speaker 6 (03:10):
Yeah, it's a lovely little spot though, like it looks good.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
When you walk in the back door, there's a toilet
on the right and a bathroom to the left. Straight
ahead is the kitchen, which opens out to the dining
and living room. After the bathroom is a small hallway
leading to two bedrooms, with the master bedroom on the right.
It's now Mark's bedroom and set out very similarly to

(03:35):
how it looked when Amy was there, a queen size
bed taking up most of the space, with a bedside
table either side, a window to the right upon entry,
and in front of the bed is a large built
in wardrobe with mirror doors. Next to the wardrobe behind

(03:55):
the door is where Amy's body was found. Allison is
surprised at how tiny the area is.

Speaker 6 (04:04):
Is very tight and I imagine the bed would have
been very similar sort of way, because she was that's right, yeah, yeah, guns,
oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 8 (04:16):
Four tens only a small book. The closure range is
blood illegal.

Speaker 1 (04:22):
Mark shows Alice and the large shed next door, where
a lot of his belongings are held, including books and
old records. He jokes about having spent a fair bit
of time there, especially when his late wife got annoyed
with him.

Speaker 8 (04:37):
Too used to tell them clear off to.

Speaker 6 (04:43):
The big spider up there, just sort of yeah, and
how long ago did your wife die?

Speaker 8 (04:52):
About three months ago?

Speaker 7 (04:54):
Now.

Speaker 1 (04:59):
Mark says he met David Simmons once became mere one.

Speaker 3 (05:07):
Hole.

Speaker 8 (05:08):
We ate and he keep saying me back tires, back
to I said no, I said, I'll see it's not
go And in the end Jesse.

Speaker 1 (05:19):
Was with me. Mark is referring to one of his
grandsons who also lives on the estate.

Speaker 8 (05:24):
All he was trying to do was coveras in gravel.
He hit the frog and spun it around and gravel
went everywhere. But I said, there's another hells up the
top of you now, he said, I know he used
to have in Libya, so that was him. I've had
some really strange people coming here, really have. And apparently
the superintendent that came here to investigate in apparently wanted

(05:48):
to go on Holy so he didn't want to know
about Heim, so he just put it down as his suicide. Yeah,
didn't need an investigating but they reckoned the angle.

Speaker 5 (05:55):
She was shot out.

Speaker 8 (05:57):
She couldn't have done it herself.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
The estake was sold in twenty sixteen for one point
seven million dollars. There were two police investigations into Amy's
death prior to the inquest in twenty twenty one. One

(06:20):
was an investigation by the Major Crime Squad in twenty
fourteen and the other by the Cold Case Homicide Squad
in twenty eighteen. In its investigation, Major Crime quickly concluded
there was no criminality identified and no evidence to identify

(06:42):
the involvement of another person. The investigation by Cold Case,
called Operation Mix, was more thorough and involved interviews with
sixty two people, of which thirty seven witness statements were obtained. Now,

(07:03):
between the statements given to Major Crime Cold Case and
the witnesses that testified at the inquest, there were a
lot of discrepancies, some minor, some major, which we will
discuss in more detail throughout this podcast, but none of them,
not one of them, were considered important by officers assigned

(07:26):
to review the case. In its final report, Cold Case
attributes inconsistencies from Price and Simmons to trauma, alcohol consumption
or both. They also concluded there was quote insufficient evidence

(07:49):
to substantiate the involvement of another person in Amy's death.
Their attitude is certainly at odds with that of the
uniformed officers who were first on the scene. One of
those officers, although no longer in the police force, was

(08:13):
Larry Blandford. Larry tells me he'll never forget when he
first saw Amy's body. Obviously, when this goes to air,
it'll be ten years. Ten years is a long time.
Do you feel any differently today than you did ten
years ago.

Speaker 5 (08:32):
I made a pledge to Aimy on that fatal night,
I said the words out loud to her, I'm sorry
for what's happened to you, Sis. We will get to
the bottom of it.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
You said that to her in the bedroom.

Speaker 5 (08:45):
I said that to her in the bedroom, and I
felt a little bit guilty by leaving the room and
not being with her.

Speaker 1 (08:54):
Why did you say that? Why did you feel compelled
to say that?

Speaker 5 (08:58):
Because because the evidence I gained from that room, it
was obvious to me that she didn't shoot herself. So
someone's got to be accountable for that action.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
It's almost a fatherly thing to say, isn't it.

Speaker 5 (09:16):
Yeah, I probably is. Yeah. I was sixty at that time,
so you know, I wasn't a young cop. I got
in it fifty four, and at this time I was
about sixty, and I had a lot of life experience
and done a lot of things abattoir and all the
other stuff that I've done.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
Seen a few things.

Speaker 5 (09:35):
Yeah, been on my own affair bit as well, And
you know I have to. When you're on your own,
you have to be accurate. You have to be accurate,
and everything you do you're driving your vehicle, maintenance, your level,
a few extra batteries because you're miles from anywhere.

Speaker 1 (09:51):
So detail is important.

Speaker 5 (09:52):
Detail is important.

Speaker 1 (09:54):
Yes, What was your rank and position on the day
Amy died?

Speaker 5 (09:59):
I was first class Constable, soon to be Senior Connie.

Speaker 1 (10:05):
And are those events still fresh and clear in your mind? Larry?
Is that fair to say?

Speaker 5 (10:11):
Yeah? It was just like like I've been through it
that many times in my head. I sort of think
about it a fair bit, and it's just like it
happened yesterday, which to me is pretty sad because I
haven't been able to move on now. I was speaking
to a Constable Dixon about two years ago, and she says,

(10:38):
I think you need help, you need counseling, And I
said to her, No, I don't. I know what I'm thinking.
I know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
Constable Dixon was one of the other uniformed officers, and
there was also Constable Roberts.

Speaker 5 (10:51):
Yeah, it was Senior Connie Ian Roberts. Yeah, good Blake,
good operator.

Speaker 1 (10:57):
Where were you and how were you told to attend
that event?

Speaker 5 (11:02):
It was start of the shift, so we were in
the office. Obviously, we were on CAD the Tartess Information Service.
Who who knows our PD numbers, radio numbers and our
mobile phone AI police issued mobile phone?

Speaker 1 (11:20):
So how does this work? All three of you asked
to attend? Were they?

Speaker 5 (11:23):
Well, we were three up. One of us may stay
behind to do a bit of paperwork while they catch up.
The other two will go out and do a job
if there's a job. But at this time it seemed
it was urgent, so all three of us jumped in
the car.

Speaker 1 (11:36):
And how did that call come in? What was the
nature of it? Did you get a notification of a
shooting or it.

Speaker 5 (11:42):
Comes in by radio? Juliet one O one, we require
you to attend an address in Serpentine would have been that.
And then when you jump into the car, we checked
the Tartness and that gives you the job. What's actually
happened at that time and a location?

Speaker 1 (11:58):
And what was the detail at that story? Which can
you remember?

Speaker 5 (12:01):
Yeah, a woman has been shot with a shotgun. That
was virtually all it was.

Speaker 1 (12:08):
Larry, can you take us through what happened when you
got there, the moment you got there.

Speaker 5 (12:12):
The moment we pulled up at the driveway. Gareth Price
was sitting on the fence, rail and a bloke I
now known to be Robert Simmons was standing by the gate.

Speaker 1 (12:25):
David Simmons father, Yeah, Robert Simmons, Yeah, did you know
Gareth Price?

Speaker 5 (12:29):
Yes. I've had dealings with Gareth before. He's always to me,
he's always been a pretty nice sort of bloke. I've
never had any trouble with him, even though that i've
I had arrested him in the past. And I actually
met him with his friend somewhere and I said the
words Gareth Edward told Price, and his mates all laughed
because I knew his name.

Speaker 8 (12:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (12:54):
So we're at the gate and I said what's going on?
And Robert Simmons says there's been a shooting. Gareth would
be the best person to talk to. So I said, Gareth,
what's going on?

Speaker 8 (13:03):
Mate?

Speaker 5 (13:04):
And he said, ah, my friend's partner is up in
the house and she committed suicide. And at that time
I thought, well, have you been schooled to say that,
because you know you're illiterate. It's a big word. So
it's my partner has committed suicide. If he was in school,

(13:26):
he just would have said my partner's been shot.

Speaker 1 (13:28):
So that immediately sprang to your mind.

Speaker 5 (13:30):
Sprang to my mind that there's better be on me
toes here, you know, And.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
Because you knew him previously, and he knew his level
of intellect.

Speaker 5 (13:39):
Yeah, when I interviewed he months before, his mother was
there as the interpreter because he couldn't read, or he
doesn't know how to read, which is it's not a fault.
But and she was also there too as his interview friend.

Speaker 1 (13:55):
And that's why that word suicide sort of stuck out
for you. Then what happened.

Speaker 5 (14:02):
I said to the fellas, say, at the gate, we're
going up. So I and Pep and I went up
the top Ian went into the shed and I went
into the house. I think Pep came in too. And
I didn't really want to Pep to see what I saw,
but I says, oh, you don't have to stay in here. Anyway,
she did her a little bit for the investigation.

Speaker 1 (14:23):
You didn't know at the stage when you went through
that front door. I mean it was a tiny house,
but you didn't know which room Amy was in.

Speaker 5 (14:30):
No, I didn't have a clue. You go from the
back verandah into the kitchen, and there's a hallway off
to the left and there's a bathroom to your right,
and after that is a bedroom.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
And how did you discover her?

Speaker 5 (14:44):
That's probably the first door I pushed open, and there
was something obstructing the door, as all evidence shows that
her leg was pushing against the door. I looked around
the corner and came into the room, and I sort
of I wasn't shocked, but I was sort of alert

(15:08):
to the fact that this is this is not right.
I saw a blue towel over her head, and I
never looked under that towel. And then there was a
firearm about a meter away and four to ten shotgun,
double barrel, side by side.

Speaker 1 (15:23):
The gun was about a meter away on the floor.
On the floor, yep. So you had squeezed through the
door because her leg, one of her legs, was obstructing
the door.

Speaker 5 (15:33):
Yeah, as I pushed through like a bit of a
bull because I didn't know this person needed medical help
or what.

Speaker 1 (15:41):
And you didn't know what the obstruction was.

Speaker 5 (15:42):
No, So when I got into the room and sort
of that out and it came in as well.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
So effectively she was behind the door, sort of wedged
behind the door.

Speaker 5 (15:51):
Yeah. Well, there's a wardrobe in the room. There's a
wardrobe to the right. The door opens into a recess. Yes,
so it doesn't hit the wardrobe door. And in that recess,
once the door is closed, there is a quite a
substantial little recess there and that's where she was laying.

Speaker 1 (16:12):
You say she had a blue towel on her head, Larry,
covering her face? Yep, her head. How did the blue
towel get put on her head?

Speaker 5 (16:23):
What I learned later is that Gareth Price put the
towel on her head.

Speaker 1 (16:28):
He put the towel on her head. Yes, Why did
he do that?

Speaker 5 (16:32):
Oh? I would say out of respect. You know, he's
not a disrespectful person and it would have been a
shock to him.

Speaker 6 (16:43):
Pausing here before speaking to Larry, we caught up with
Gareth Price at his home, which you'll hear in a
later episode. In that interview and all the others he's
given since Amy's death, Price has never deviated from his
description of the position of the gun when he first
walked into the bedroom.

Speaker 1 (17:02):
He's told us that when he discovered her, the gun
was on her lap, Yes, and sort of down her legs,
so to speak. Did he remove the gun and put
it on the floor.

Speaker 5 (17:18):
Yeah, he did make admissions that he removed the firearm
from her lap and put it about a meter away.
So that's the time I saw it at that location,
at that position.

Speaker 1 (17:30):
Why would you touch the gun?

Speaker 5 (17:34):
Not sure, mate. There's a few things that you shouldn't do,
and that's probably one of them. It's it's a situation
that has to be has to be believed at the time,
you know, because there's no cover up from the attending

(17:57):
police officers. You know.

Speaker 1 (18:00):
David Simmons father Robert, has also given evidence that he
unloaded that gun. So he's picked the gun up and
unloaded the spent cartridge, put it on a bedside table.
Why would you do that?

Speaker 5 (18:20):
That's another question. I haven't got a crystal ball. I
can't answer that. But there was a live cartridge and
a spent cartridge on the bedside table, which was probably
about three three and a half meters from aim.

Speaker 1 (18:37):
Now, as a police officer, did those actions strike you
as strange?

Speaker 5 (18:40):
Oh for sure.

Speaker 1 (18:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (18:42):
At that time I just saw a mouth yep, I know.
I went over and had a look, and I spent
a few bit of time in the room looking in
the cupboard, looking at all unsecured ammunition and rifles and
bits and pieces laying around, so you know, I formed
an opinion that it's it was it suicide. And as

(19:03):
I looked at Amy, there was blood spatter on the
walls and it was probably about as high as a chair,
the first big blood spatter, and I thought, well, that
would mean that she's been pegged on the way down.
She was sitting on her right hand and she was

(19:27):
right handed, so if she's going down, forced to go down,
she'd use her right hand to push against the wall
to go to the ground. And then she had gun
residue on her fingers as well on a left hand,
so she's pushing the barrel away.

Speaker 1 (19:45):
So the gun residue on her left hand to you,
indicated that she was using her left hand to try
to push the muzzle away.

Speaker 5 (19:53):
Yeah, I'm saying the gun residue on hand, I didn't
know until forensics sorted that bit out after the fact.
That was after the fact. But the fact is at
that time her hand, her left hand was on her
lap and her league was out. Her left league was out,
so that was the only hand she had to defend
herself with. And I wasn't surprised that it had gone

(20:17):
residie on that hand.

Speaker 1 (20:19):
But in those moments with you looking around the room
and taking all that detail in, as you said, detail
is so important, you formed the definite view. Did you
that it was not suicide?

Speaker 5 (20:36):
Yeah? I was convinced by my experiences that it wasn't suicide,
and this was confirmed as I gained other information at
later times.

Speaker 1 (20:53):
We're all three of you in agreement at that time.
Did you all think that there were suspicious enough signs
that you needed the detectives and that it was a
crime scene?

Speaker 5 (21:04):
We congregated, the three of us congregated sort of every
ten minutes or so. How'd you go? What did you find?
I got this? I got that, and Pip went back
to the car to check for more firearms because I
had a bundle of firearms. Was about four I had
and there was five registered for the for the residents
of the property. And as we got together, I said,

(21:27):
this is suspicious. This is just not a suicide. So
I conferred with him. So that's why he in called
for the crime car. We need a car, We need
someone here to do this, We need help.

Speaker 1 (21:38):
But both your colleagues agreed with you.

Speaker 5 (21:40):
Yes, oh, yeah, one hundred percent, And to this day.

Speaker 1 (21:43):
So there was complete consensus, yes, from three uniform police
officers exactly exactly.

Speaker 5 (21:49):
Forensically, it wasn't good because there had been three people
that had handled that firearm. I didn't at the time
that Robert Sipons had handled it and unloaded it, Gareth
Price had moved it, and the perpetrator used it. So
there's three people touch that fire up. So from then
on we had to be really vigilant, let no one
in the house, and it was declared a PFA.

Speaker 1 (22:12):
PFA is protected forensic area ye.

Speaker 5 (22:15):
So couldn't let anybody in, and we had to leave
everything in its place and just seize items that needed seizing,
but leave them where they are and we'll deal with
it later.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
It's apparent from the records that Senior Constable Roberts On
declaring it a PFA, asked for forensics, a formal request
for the forensics team to turn up, but they never
turned up.

Speaker 5 (22:41):
What happened there, well, he asked for crime car, so
the detectives rolled up along with a second car with
other trainee detectives. And I've seen these people around, but
when people become a detective or in the crime car,
blue collars not to accept it that, well, it's a

(23:02):
bad habit that detectives have got. They don't want to
listen to their ground crew, which are their eyes and ears,
which are of the frontline police.

Speaker 6 (23:20):
According to police records, detectives Tony Kirkman and Tom Wiederman
arrived about seven pm.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
So in the ranking system, you're well and truly the
foot soldier and they turn up as officers. And there's
very much division there.

Speaker 5 (23:35):
Is there, I think, So, yeah, there's always been that
division from years before. It's always been the same.

Speaker 1 (23:45):
So let me just get this right. I'm struggling to
understand this. So there's three police officers on the scene,
and you're treating this bedroom and the house by extension,
but you're treating the bedroom where Amy's body is still
sitting as a PFA.

Speaker 3 (24:01):
Officially, yes, the whole place, actually the whole shed's house,
everything protected forensic area YEP. And by definition of that category,
then a forensic team has to turn up. But somehow,
somewhere in the ensuing two or three hours, that request
gets overruled by somebody and the forensic team never turns up.

Speaker 1 (24:24):
How does that happen?

Speaker 5 (24:26):
Well, I think that when the crime car would arrive
Normally they would call for forensics. We called for assistance
with a crime car, so that, you know, they'd take
it from there and we'd be the people just doing
all the bagging and mopping up and taking statements if

(24:46):
it's necessary. You know, we'd be doing all that.

Speaker 1 (24:49):
You're telling me. The detectives overruled what the three of
you were thinking.

Speaker 5 (24:54):
Oh, definitely, definitely. When the detectives arrived, they didn't want
to go in. Kirkman did all the talking. He said, no,
we don't have to go in because he says, we've
got photographs. Well, we'll just look at photographs. And I said, no, no,
I know, you've got to go in. You can't just
look at the photographs. And I was getting I was

(25:15):
a little bit vocal because the truth is the truth,
and I don't I don't like people Dutch shoving Dutch
shoving jobs.

Speaker 1 (25:25):
Hang on, you and your colleagues had taken photographs.

Speaker 5 (25:28):
Ian took the photographs.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yes, Senior Constable Roberts do for photographs in the bedroom.

Speaker 5 (25:33):
Yes. On the police supplied camera. Everything has got a
continuity of flows. So it has to be a police radio,
a police phone, and a police camera.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
So the photographs were taken on the police camera. Yep,
the detectives turn up. What's the first thing they say?

Speaker 5 (25:50):
They just said, well, what's going on? And we told
them and he goes, oh, well we won't have to
go in. Then I almost look at the photographs and
it was a bit heated because I had a word
and then Ian had a word as well with this
Kirkman who was doing on talking. And then Tom Wiederman
disappeared for a couple of minutes and came back and

(26:11):
in his hand he dropped down the cover shoes. They're
sort of forensic overshoe, right, So that meant that Weederman
was saying, let's go inside.

Speaker 1 (26:24):
Well, what sort of detective turns up to a crime
scene and doesn't want to physically look at the crime scene?

Speaker 5 (26:31):
While he's made his own admissions at the currentis Court
that he was slack and he was also going on
holidays that night, so he didn't want anything upsetting his leave.

Speaker 1 (26:45):
So, just coming back to that point, is it fair
to say that these heated words you and your colleagues
embarrassed the detectives into going inside and having a look
seeing what you saw, Oh for sure. Yeah, And when
they did and then came out of the house.

Speaker 5 (27:03):
Well about five minutes. They said, no, it's a suicide.

Speaker 1 (27:05):
They spent five minutes in that.

Speaker 5 (27:07):
Yeah, I think it's about five minutes. I didn't put
the clock on it, but we were waiting outside and
we weren't waiting that long.

Speaker 1 (27:13):
It's that all.

Speaker 5 (27:14):
Yeah, they might have been in their ten minutes, but
it just seemed a very short time to me, not
enough time to do a preliminary excavation in there to
see what they can find, take more photos, look at
spatter and stuff like that, look at the ammunition, I
look at the gun, just see how Amy thought. So

(27:39):
nights on the wardrobe and stuff like that. So, no,
they didn't have enough time to do any of it.

Speaker 1 (27:46):
Well, we know from the inquest that they took hardly
any notes. Between the two of them. There was less
than a page.

Speaker 5 (27:51):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (27:52):
So it backs up what you're saying. When they came out,
how did they say that?

Speaker 5 (27:57):
They said it's non suspicious like that, and Ian and
I said again, you know no this, you know you're
missing the point. There's the whole story is that it
is suspicious. And I said, well, you've already dismissed it.
Again and there's a car, a rocking hand car, taking

(28:17):
two statements down the front driveway from Price and Simmons.
You haven't read them yet, And their reply was, oh, yeah,
well we'll read the statements and let you know. We'll
ring the phone, and Pip had the phone and she
advised about, I don't know, five or ten minutes later
again now it's non suspicious. And then we declared it

(28:40):
a non pair fait. So then it was open slab.
You can go where you want, to do what you wanted,
and click what you wanted and put it all in order,
get an interim property receipt, ready to handle the goods
over because you couldn't leave them there. So from then
on we just sort of we're a little bit fizzed
about it, but we just had our orders.

Speaker 1 (29:02):
So it was no longer forensically protected. It was open
slather yep. Once they decided the hammer had come down,
they said, no, it's non suspicious. Yep. While this is
going on, while they're in that house, even for that
short amount of time, where are David Simmons and Gareth Price.

Speaker 5 (29:18):
David Simmons and Gareth Price, we're giving a statement down
at the front gate to the rocking Ham car.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
That was a police car from the Rockingham point.

Speaker 5 (29:26):
We were assisted. We needed a bit of help, and
I said to the fellas earlier, I said to take
a statement if you don't mind, from these two blogs,
and keep them apart when you do it, and don't
let anybody up the driveway. We don't want any more
people up here. Shortly after that, we've still got Amy

(29:47):
in the room. We've secured some firearms, put them in
the back of our police car the lock door, and
we were then joined by Price and Simmons.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
So after David Simmons and Gareth Price gave their statements individually,
they were allowed to come up to the.

Speaker 5 (30:07):
House, allowed to come up to the area, but I
wouldn't let them in the house.

Speaker 1 (30:12):
And how would you describe David simmons demeanor at that stage?

Speaker 5 (30:16):
Oh, I suppose he was a bit reserved. You know,
I've known David Simmons for a little while. He was
fairly reserved. And Gareth came up to get his car.
They came up in Amy's commodore.

Speaker 1 (30:30):
Did you talk to Simmons at all?

Speaker 5 (30:31):
I had a word with him briefly. He made his
way to the house and I said, boy, you can't
go in there, mate. He said why, I said, because
I said so, Because we hadn't shifted Amy. We don't
know what she's got on her. So it was just
a matter of keeping him out.

Speaker 1 (30:50):
Why was he wanting to go back into the house
of that stage.

Speaker 5 (30:53):
He said the words I want to get my phone,
and then Cantabell Dixon said there's a phone here. He said, no,
that's not mine. Mine's pink and I said, no, mate,
you can't go in the house. Definitely not. So he
left the area with Gareth Price right, and then I
said to Casper Dixon, I said, there's no big hair

(31:15):
he guru or alive who owns a pink phone? That
was my word, So you know, I was sort of
that gets the point across straight away to pick that. Yeah,
he does know a pink phone. And the pink phone
was found a bit later on Tuckey in Amy's left sock,
so it was Amy's fun.

Speaker 1 (31:32):
He was Amy's phone, so clearly he was trying to
access Amy's fun.

Speaker 5 (31:37):
Yeah, for sure, why would you want that? I don't know,
might might have had something on it that he wanted
to see.

Speaker 1 (31:44):
So the detectives then went and what read the statements
of both Price and Simmons while they were on the property.

Speaker 5 (31:53):
They down the driveway right down the front of the property.
They read the statements, and about five minutes later it
was declared and non PFA. They've read the statements. It's suicide.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
So they just read the statements. The detectives did not
interview them formally. No, there was not even an attempt
to take either of them back to a police station
and separate them and just have a formal interview.

Speaker 5 (32:16):
No. Nothing.

Speaker 1 (32:18):
You were in the police force for some what three
years after this event, yep, and no one has ever
come to you like we're doing today, sitting down and
asking you questions about your experience.

Speaker 5 (32:29):
I was approached by cold case to be interviewed. I
was out of the police by then, so I had
to go to Manda John's station and I spoke to
the senior counciple in charge of the cold case.

Speaker 1 (32:43):
And did she ask you a whole list of questions
and talk about your experience.

Speaker 5 (32:47):
No, she didn't ask me anything at all like that.
All she wanted me to do was change my statement.

Speaker 2 (32:55):
Why.

Speaker 5 (32:56):
Well, I stood firm and I said my Statement's my statement.
I said, I'm not changing anything. And this person dropped
her insistence and said, why does your statement have a
different font there? There and there? And I said, well,
we use a different computer. You don't go to the
same computer every time. And they'd written in extra things

(33:18):
that I should have had should have said, well, they
think I should have said, but it was all if
it was a homicide. But it wasn't a homicide, so
I didn't have to say a lot. I said enough,
I've done enough statements to know what to do. So,
you know, and you haven't got time to sit there.
You haven't got all day or all shift ten hours

(33:39):
to work on your file. You've got to get out
in the road and protect the public and just you know,
just be a police officer, mum, John. Police always had
a backlog of work and there wasn't a lot of
coppers there at the time.

Speaker 1 (33:55):
So when the police, sorry to laugh, but that almost cometic.
When the police did talk to you about about the case,
they're more worried about the font. Yes, the different fonts
on your statement.

Speaker 5 (34:10):
And why I didn't put this in, didn't put that in?
And I've got all these statements here if police want
me to bring them forward, I'm only too happy to
I've kept all the records.

Speaker 1 (34:22):
But they've never sat down with you like this, No,
and talked about the events of that night.

Speaker 9 (34:25):
No.

Speaker 5 (34:26):
Never. And I'll just let you know now, if I
am interviewed by police, I will need an interview friend,
because I don't know what's going on. I haven't got
a clue.

Speaker 1 (34:39):
You appeared at the inquest, Larry, yep, and you were
represented partially by the police lawyer.

Speaker 5 (34:47):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (34:48):
What did the police lawyer say to you? Do they do?
They want to tease out that this and find out
what you knew?

Speaker 5 (34:55):
The police lawyer, I think their role is to make
sure that the the cops give good evidence. And I
looked after.

Speaker 1 (35:05):
They adequately represented, Yeah, for sure yep.

Speaker 5 (35:08):
And I went to Perth with Ian Roberts and we
went to police headquarters and I dropped in and saw
this solicitor right and we had an appointment to be there.
And when it was my team to go into the
solicitor's office, I gave her a barrage of unanswered questions

(35:31):
all out of my head and she just sort of
looked a bit bewildered. Why I was asking all these questions.
It's like, look, I haven't been spoken to. I'm so frustrated.
So that all went okay. About a month later it
was the currentis court. So when I did give evidence,

(35:52):
this same solicitor said to me, I'll put a scenario
to you. I answered a few questions, and then it
was put a scenario to you. I turned to your
honor and I said, your honor, can I speak freely?
And your honor says, please do so. I said, don't
you give me any scenarios. You weren't there because I

(36:14):
was protective of the fact that the solicitor already stated
that she committed suicide. So I didn't want I didn't
want any scenario. I didn't want anything. I just want
the truth. And well, for whatever this solicitor said wouldn't
have been conducive to the way I think.

Speaker 1 (36:33):
What were your impressions? What is your impression of the
coronial finding?

Speaker 5 (36:39):
I didn't go to every hearing, but I did hear
your honor say to Tom Wiederman, three Unifine police offers
reckoned exactly the opposite.

Speaker 6 (36:52):
What Larry is referring to is the uniform officers were
adamant they made it clear they didn't believe Amy's death
was suicide, but the detectives gave the impression it wasn't
express that firmly.

Speaker 10 (37:04):
Did it occur to you that that could be consistent
with someone trying to keep a door shut with their feet.

Speaker 4 (37:09):
Yes, that is a possibility. But looking at when we
went in and looking at the blood spatter, and again
I'm not an expert, and that's something I regret that
we didn't get certain experts out, But looking at the
body where Detective Kirkman had sort of supervised me what
he believed to happen, and I agreed that the shot
would have been level because of the spatter. It made

(37:29):
sense if she was sitting there when she got shot,
So in our view, the body wasn't moved after death.
Remembering that the barrel of the gun, and look, I'm
not a gun person, Detective Kirkman is. I was led
by his knowledge, which I know Kirkman. I've worked with
him for a long time. I respect him. He's a
good police officer. I have nothing but good to say

(37:51):
about his investigating skills. There was blood on the barrel,
which would indicate that the gun was reasonably close to
the head as well, talked about would someone again fear
as a factor, would someone cower in a corner when
someone stands there with a gun? If someone shot from
above her, the spatter would have been different, so the
gun would have been in our view level.

Speaker 10 (38:13):
So the position of her body behind the door with
her feet against it and no door handle, he didn't
notice there was no door handle, not.

Speaker 4 (38:21):
That I recall at the moment. Sorry, the other things.
We checked the body for injuries, you know, defensive injuries,
we couldn't see any.

Speaker 6 (38:29):
The counsel assisting Sarah Tyler then asks these questions, Are you.

Speaker 11 (38:34):
Aware that the forensic pathologist undertook an examination and found
bruising to Amy's right wrist?

Speaker 4 (38:39):
I was told afterwards, yes.

Speaker 11 (38:41):
Do you think, with the benefit of hindsight that it
would have been beneficial to wait for the forensic pathologists
to do a full examination before forming a view one
way or the other?

Speaker 4 (38:50):
Benefit of hindsight? And if I what I know now,
I would have done a lot of further investigation at
the time, But we can't go back.

Speaker 11 (38:57):
I understand that when you exited the property having made
the preliminary determination that the death was not suspicious. You
spoke with the uniformed officers.

Speaker 4 (39:05):
Again, I think it was more detective sergeant Kirkman. But yes,
I was part of that conversation.

Speaker 11 (39:10):
What's your recollection of that conversation.

Speaker 4 (39:12):
I couldn't give you words. It happened six and a
half years.

Speaker 11 (39:15):
Ago, not words, just your general recollection of what was.

Speaker 4 (39:18):
He explained what it was, and I don't recall that
some of the uniform disagreed. But again I couldn't say
it didn't happen. I don't have any recollection of that conversation.

Speaker 11 (39:28):
You don't remember those officers saying we disagree.

Speaker 4 (39:31):
I don't remember anyone saying, hang on, we believe it
was suspicious. Quite frankly, at the moment, if someone said,
hang on, this is suspicious, we would reassess and say
why and either rule it in or rule it out.

Speaker 11 (39:43):
Your perception is that if one of those officers had
said to you, this is suspicious, you would have taken
that on board and you would have reconsidered your position.

Speaker 4 (39:51):
Yes.

Speaker 6 (39:51):
Wiederman Is then asked about the statements from Simmons and Price,
which they hadn't seen at the time of making that determination.

Speaker 11 (39:59):
We've heard evidence from from some of the uniformed officers
that suggest that there was some reluctance to even view
those statements. Does that sound accurate to you?

Speaker 4 (40:07):
We were always going to review statements.

Speaker 11 (40:09):
You never make a determination and ignore statements that were
taken at the scene. No where did you review the statements.

Speaker 4 (40:16):
We went down to the front gate and we sat
in the car. There were four of us. Kirkman read
the statements out.

Speaker 11 (40:21):
To us, and what was your impression of those statements.

Speaker 4 (40:23):
Yeah, there were some inconsistencies, which is not necessarily bad.
It means there's an independent thought process. I don't recollect
anything raising any flags in the statements.

Speaker 6 (40:33):
Despite the evidence being different from what he and Detective
Kirkman believed on the night they investigated. Detective Weedeman doesn't
believe they got it wrong.

Speaker 11 (40:41):
You stand by the determination that it was a suicide.

Speaker 4 (40:45):
I still believe it was a suicide. Now having said that,
in hindsight, we would have done or I would have done.
I can't speak for Kirkman. I would have done further inquiries.

Speaker 6 (40:54):
The deputy coroner makes this point.

Speaker 10 (40:56):
As a coroner for the last seven years, who does
one hundred of sudden deaths, I can literally only think
of one where a female committed suicide with a firearm.
I find it surprising because we've had three uniformed officers
who to this day have indicated they felt quite strongly
that it was suspicious, and they feel like they conveyed
that information effectively to the detectives, that it wasn't factored

(41:19):
into the decision making. But your evidence is that you
don't recall those concerns being raised, which is obviously very unusual.
I have to weigh up the evidence of both, and
it's quite clear to me that they all continued to
feel strongly about this case ever since, and they all
still feel that way.

Speaker 4 (41:37):
I know Kirkman might inform the uniforms at the time
of why it wasn't suspicious. Again, I wasn't in that conversation,
so I don't know if there was something raised there.

Speaker 6 (41:47):
Moving on to his partner, Detective Sergeant Kirkman, Kirkman acknowledges
he was taking leave for seven weeks. The following day,
he tells the inquest he remembers the missing door handle,
but didn't think it was significant, and like Detective Weedaman,
Detective Sergeant Kirkman still thinks Amy's death was suicide.

Speaker 12 (42:06):
I can't imagine somebody sitting there and allowing somebody to
place it directly onto her head and pull the trigger
and her not move or try to prevent it. It's
just not logical.

Speaker 6 (42:16):
However, he admits he read it wrong and shouldn't have
called off forensics.

Speaker 11 (42:21):
I appreciate your own experienced detective and your experience with
far arm matters generally. Do you have any qualifications in
respect of blood spatter?

Speaker 12 (42:29):
I'm not a blood spatter expert.

Speaker 11 (42:31):
No, we are going to hear from a blood spatter
expert in due course. My understanding is that their assessment
of the blood spatter is that it wasn't consistent with
a low to high trajectory. Do you think, with the
benefit of hindsight, that it perhaps would have been beneficial
to call an expert to make that determination?

Speaker 12 (42:48):
One hundred percent yes.

Speaker 11 (42:49):
Do you know why you didn't do that?

Speaker 12 (42:51):
Arrogance over confidence, feeling like I was the person that
was responsible, and I was the one that had to
make the decision, and I made what I considered to
be the wrong decision.

Speaker 6 (43:01):
He's then asked about his argument with the uniform officers.

Speaker 13 (43:05):
Do you recall that conversation the conversation was I'd explain
to them what we'd seen and that it was my
determination that it was suicide. How did the officers respond
to that they disagreed? Yes, but like I said, it
was my decision.

Speaker 11 (43:18):
Did they disagree forcefully? It had been described in evidence
as a heated discussion.

Speaker 12 (43:23):
Yes, I've had many heated discussions. I'm quite abrasive. I
can be rude, I can be blunt, but that was
not a heated discussion.

Speaker 11 (43:31):
Are you the type of detective given that you say
you can be abrasive and a bit rude, that is
unlikely to take the point of another officer.

Speaker 12 (43:38):
I take other people's opinions, but like I said, at
the end of the day, the decision, as wrong as
it was, was mine and I made it.

Speaker 10 (43:45):
So at the time, was it pretty clear to you
that they didn't think you were right?

Speaker 12 (43:50):
They disagreed at the beginning, but like I said, there
was no you know, VM an argument or raised voice
or even forceful conversation. But I don't think they agreed
with me.

Speaker 10 (44:00):
So it was clear with you that they didn't agree
with you at the time.

Speaker 6 (44:03):
That's correct, man, It was clear at the inquest the
coroner had a hard time understanding any justification in the
way detectives handled Amy's case, and.

Speaker 1 (44:13):
Yet it's an open finding.

Speaker 5 (44:15):
Well, it is an open finding now, yes.

Speaker 1 (44:17):
Which I still leave suicide on the table Barry.

Speaker 5 (44:20):
Yes, well that's right. Yeah, that open finding is probably
the second best result we needed because it won't be closed.
It won't ever be closed, you know, and police can
still have a ping at it later on.

Speaker 1 (44:34):
Ten years on. Is your view that Amy did not
shoot herself still as strong?

Speaker 5 (44:43):
Ah? Yes, I live with it. I've had high ranking
police officers say to me at least a dozen she
didn't cheat herself. And of all my mates at the
Jarediae gun club, and a good friend of mine who
who runs a Jaredile gun club and I go to
him for support with fire ups, and they all said

(45:08):
she didn't shut herself. No way. So I'm hearing it
from everybody that she didn't shoot herself. It's and that
makes me firm in what I think.

Speaker 1 (45:19):
You haven't changed.

Speaker 5 (45:21):
I'm not going to change.

Speaker 1 (45:22):
Either, notwithstanding that the forensics were completely mucked up on
the night and that has destroyed a whole stack of
potential evidence. Do you think police have tried hard enough
to find new evidence.

Speaker 5 (45:37):
Well, I've offered a reward. So there's a lot of
people that need closure on this, including myself, Gareth Simmons,
and the families other police officers. So if someone comes
forward with that little nugget of information, doesn't matter how
trivial it seems, that little nuggative information may may enrich

(46:02):
their wallet and solve the problem.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
How many people do you think involved in this? No
more than they're saying.

Speaker 5 (46:10):
Oh, probably probably three or four. Definitely three or four.

Speaker 1 (46:16):
If you had to single out the clues, if I
can put it that way, Larry, if you had to
single out the clues in this that to you on
the day as a police officer stood out as being
the strongest indicators that this wasn't a suicide. What would
they be.

Speaker 5 (46:36):
Robert Simons told me that they were firing the gun
all afternoon, the four ten. And I can back this
up by the fact that there was a skeep tucker
in the shed and there was broken skeets all down
the road. Clay pigeons, they called them, right, So they
layered them up, flick it out and then shoot it
with the four to ten. They've been using the four

(46:57):
ten all afternoon. I'd been cutting figh what I believe
in the morning. So forensics say there was nothing on
their clothes that has to be considered. The police are
saying that forensics didn't pick up any evidence of anything on.

Speaker 1 (47:13):
Their clothes, no gunshot residue.

Speaker 5 (47:15):
No gunshot residue, no blood, nothing but three drops of
blood were found on the shoes and it was animal blood, right,
So if you dig a little bit deeper, David Simmons
had time to change his clothes.

Speaker 1 (47:32):
So between the time of the shooting and the time
that CCTV vision at the roadhouse happens, there is time,
you think for a clothing change.

Speaker 5 (47:43):
Oh, it takes me about a minute and a half
to change, you know. And I've got standard tracksuit pants
and tops that I've got five pairs of each sort
of thing, so i could look the same, but I've
got clean clothes.

Speaker 6 (47:58):
On clarify here. The clothes tested were those provided by
Simmons and Price, which they say they were wearing on
the night. One of the witnesses, Joshua Brydon, says Simmons
did change his clothes from a blue singlet and blue jeans,
but he said it happened before Amy died, and it
was because he'd been chopping wood in the rain. We'll

(48:20):
also discuss this in more detail in a later episode
of this podcast.

Speaker 1 (48:33):
Amy's eldest daughter said in her interview this can't be
admitted to court because she's too young. But she says
in the interview that she sees one of the men
dragging a wheellybin down to the road.

Speaker 5 (48:47):
Yeah, I'm of the belief. Now I didn't see a
wheely bin down the road anywhere. I believe that there
was clothing in the wheely bin because it stands to reason, say,
someone's just been killed, whether suicide or homicide, why would
you bother towing a weely bin down the road. That's

(49:07):
not your priority. That's not his priority anyway, because it's
not Price's job to do that.

Speaker 1 (49:15):
Why would you toe a weeely bin? Then it's not
exactly midnight as a priority, is it.

Speaker 5 (49:21):
No? But the thing is what was in the bin.
That's the question. What was in the bin? Now, this
clothes that they wore didn't have anything on them. It
was a clothing that Simmons had to present to forensics.
There should have been fire wood, chips, on them, and

(49:43):
there are also should have been gun.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
Residue from shooting the gun all after night.

Speaker 5 (49:47):
From shooting the gun all afternoon. My theory is it's
a break back four ten shotgun. When you break it,
both empty cartridges fire out back at you and then
they hit you. They tip upside down. You would have
gun residue on your pants, around your belt line, your
chest because most people hold it to the side and

(50:08):
do it. But that's how you get this residue on
you from a breakback.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
Robert Simmons role in going into that bedroom, into that
crime scene and unloading that weapon, the father of David Simmons.
Why would you do that, Larry?

Speaker 5 (50:23):
I don't really know how Robert Simmons thinks, but the
police detectives didn't speak to Robert that night. Robert told
me when we dropped the interim propery receipt off, because
we had a crossbow and five firearms and a bag
full of ammunition, and we took it up. We took

(50:44):
the property receipt up, which is which you have to
do if you're seizing something. And he told me at
that time that they'd be far in the four ten
all afternoon, and he unloaded the firearm and put the
spent cart and the live cartridge on the bedside table.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
I just don't understand why you do that. Why would
you touch the gun at all?

Speaker 5 (51:08):
I don't know, But why would you say my son's
done it too? He said that in one.

Speaker 1 (51:13):
Of his he said that in his call to the operator.

Speaker 5 (51:18):
Well would you say that? Well? What else can I say?

Speaker 1 (51:23):
Since the shooting? Have you had any contact with David Simmons?

Speaker 5 (51:29):
Yes? I have. About a year later, Ian and I
were going down Salist Highway and we got to Keysbrook
because that's really the limit of our area, and we
were stopped by a Pinjarra police car and that bloke
had to talk to us and he said, if you

(51:51):
ever arrest a bloke called David Simmons, take two cars
with you because he's a handful.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
Of thanks mate, and this is another policeman telling you it. Yep.

Speaker 5 (52:04):
And I said, what's what's he done? He said, I'm
driving under the influence, so he's got done for that
as well. And after that, about three years two or
three years later, my partner and I, who was a
proby constable, went to a job at the tavern, of

(52:24):
which that's where Simmons met Amy. She worked at the tavern.
We go to the tavern, that's about it's probably about
eight o'clock at night. We're on afternoon shift. But this
is a few years after the show, a few years later,
and I went into the hotel. My partner was a provy,
so she was very green. She I don't know if

(52:46):
she come in or not, but I've got a duty
of care to look after it. But at this time,
soon as I saw it was Simmons, I just had
to focus on him and I said, come on, David
outside because he's been kicking the toilet door and making
a kerfuffle.

Speaker 1 (53:00):
He was the subject of the call.

Speaker 5 (53:01):
Was he David Simmons was the subject?

Speaker 8 (53:03):
Yep?

Speaker 5 (53:03):
He was a Blaker's disturbing everybody. And we went outside
and I said, we know each other. Let's just get
this sorted. And he goes, yeah, you took my kids
off me, and you took all my guns off me.
Nothing about Amy, and he is pretty full on and

(53:25):
he went for my taser. So I pressed my PRESSL
switch and all the time this is going on, the
PRESSL switches on your radio and an alerts VICI that
you need assistance, and I have a duty of care
to accounstable. The LA was with and I'm trying to
fend him off. And I looked Dave, and she's hiding

(53:47):
behind the passenger seat passenger side front door, looking at me.

Speaker 1 (53:52):
Were you armed?

Speaker 5 (53:53):
I was armed with a taser and a firearm and
a baton.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
So was she?

Speaker 5 (53:58):
That's right confronting? Yeah, oh yeah, because within five minutes
a armada car roll up and two officers got out.
One was a fairly tall junior officer with all the
he had all the power about him, and the other
one was a female sergeant. And Simmons said to me,

(54:20):
you're dead. I'm going to kill you, kill your family
and all this shit, and now do you like it
if your partner gets killed and all this sort of shit,
You're dead sort of thing. Has kept saying that, and
then this young bloke, this young copper, jumps out of
the passenger seat and throws him on the bonnet. And
then the other officer come around. Then they handcuffed him right,

(54:40):
but they did pull him off me, and.

Speaker 1 (54:43):
So he got in a few punches to you, did he?

Speaker 5 (54:45):
Oh? I offended him off. I wasn't worried about him
too much. But the funny thing is he turned to
the officer who threw him on the bonnet, Ah, you're dead.
You're as good as dead. So they took him to
arm at Our police station. I had to go there
with my partner and she did the paperwork, hand him

(55:05):
over sort of thing, give a statement of who's who
and who's what. I sat in the car because it'd
be best if I don't go into the lockup. And
he was charged. He was remanded that night, and he
was in charge and got nine months for assaulting me,
got nine months in jail, yep, for sulting public officer.

Speaker 1 (55:24):
And now he's up on another charge exactly the same.

Speaker 5 (55:28):
I'm really not up with what he's up with. As
I said earlier, to keep an open mind, i haven't
listened to anybody's stories. I've just read my own notes,
and I just want to be clearing the head without
anybody giving me advice or telling me what's going on.

Speaker 1 (55:51):
Larry, this is a value judgment, But the detectives on
the night, I think it's been pretty well proven during
the inquest. That's the arrogance and the sloppy detective work,
the lack of judgment. All of that combined to really

(56:11):
damage this case. But that's one thing. Why do you
think for so many years the police have seemingly been
so intent on maintaining this line about a suicide. It's
almost like they're locked on and they won't consider anything else.

Speaker 5 (56:32):
As I said earlier, a lot of police have spoken
to me and they are convinced it's not a suicide.
I don't think the right people have handled the job.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
It's the state government that's come up with the reward
money and police have gone into lockstep with that. And
this case has been included as a bundle with a
whole stack of other cases. So it's almost an accident,
if I can put it that way, that it's turned
out to be now a homicide. Appealing for information? Yeah,

(57:07):
do you know if things are different for the two
other constables involved because they're still in the police force,
you're retired. Have they had anybody come to them and
ask them questions that you haven't been asked?

Speaker 5 (57:18):
I don't know. I have lost contact with them all.
I've lost contact with every police officer ever known. I
had some really good friends, but I don't see anybody now.

Speaker 1 (57:28):
Why is that?

Speaker 5 (57:29):
I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I
sort of They used to come up my driveway when
I was at home. You know, they're on shift and
yan and then they'd burn off. But you know, it's
sort of people change venues. I suppose as well.

Speaker 1 (57:46):
You still think there are things that could be done, Oh.

Speaker 5 (57:49):
For sure, Yeah, for sure, yep. But now it's got
it's got beyond all the all the cops that are
spoken to me. It's got technical. But I've worked it out,
so why haven't they? I'm no hero, mate, but it's
it's obvious, you know, sort of you're going to go

(58:12):
with it.

Speaker 1 (58:13):
You want to clear your conscience, too, don't you.

Speaker 5 (58:16):
I want to clear my mind. My conscience is good.
I've done the right thing, and I just want to
have clarity, finalize this issue and move.

Speaker 1 (58:27):
On and keep the promise you made to Amy.

Speaker 5 (58:29):
That's dead, right, Yep? I will do that whatever whatever,
I will not.

Speaker 1 (58:34):
Stop from everything you saw, everything you witnessed, and the
people you've spoken to then and after, what's your best
guess at what really happened? What do you think is
the real truth about Amy?

Speaker 5 (58:50):
Gareth said to me one day, I wouldn't get between
Simmons and his partner. So that meant to me straight
away he's a bit shy, which i've Simmons having a guardian.
I suggest that she didn't commit suicide. The only ways
can now be proven, I think, is if they have
some kind of inquiry and put all these police on

(59:15):
notice that they'll have to go to the inquiry and
answer the questions.

Speaker 1 (59:19):
So you want a proper formal judicial inquiry, Yeah.

Speaker 5 (59:22):
For sure, And that way I might be spoken to
as well, I hope. So. But there's another little thing
that's stuck in my mind is I had a great
deal of arrests at Mono. John warrants, serve the summonses,
the VROs and I've arrested fair few people prior to

(59:45):
the new police station. And even now with the new
police station, you're reluctant to take a person back there
and arrested person unless there's other people in the office,
because if you've got no one in the office, you
can't sort of leave this person on their own in
the lockup. You've got to monitor them, or you've got
to get someone else to monitor them. The on the screen.

(01:00:08):
So I always made it a decision to go to Armadale,
and I've took most of my arrests to Armadah, and
I actually went there that frequently. The OIC gave me
a swipe card to get in through the gate, you know,
because it might be afternoon shift, late or something like that.
I had an arrest and I went to Armadale. My

(01:00:30):
partner and I went into the lockup and they had
a police auxiliary officer there doing the entry into custody.
So I just said to my part I'm going to
buck upstairs and notify the sergeant that we've got an arrest.
So I go up and you know, I just wandered
into the sergeant's office, Gale's serge, and it was Tom Wiederman.

(01:00:54):
He looked up at me, and it was within a
half a second said it was a bit strange that night,
wasn't it. It's still on his mind. Three or four
years later.

Speaker 6 (01:01:13):
In Western Australia, State Corners Court figures reveal there were
one hundred and seventeen deaths involving firearms between twenty fourteen
and twenty twenty, of which ninety eight were suicides. Only
three of those were female. WA Police procedure for firearm

(01:01:35):
fatalities include securing the scene, examining and assessing it for
possible suspicious circumstances or other party involvement, and if criminality suspected,
contacting the homicide squad. Identify and photograph blood spatter and
see if it's consistent with the scene. Consider whether the

(01:01:58):
deceased could have reached the trigger. Verify scene factors, positioning
of the body and weapon location, whether it's consistent with
the method of death that's occurred. If further advice or
specialist assistance is required, contact forensic if necessary, Bag the
deceased hands in paper bags to protect gunshot residue search

(01:02:23):
for a suicide Note.

Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
This was in twenty twenty one following Amy's shooting. There
wasn't much point in police going back because Robert Simmons
had the cleaners in the very next day after detectives
called off forensics, deciding a protected forensic area was no

(01:02:46):
longer necessary as the case was closed, any evidence was gone.
After the inquest into Amy's death, WA Police announced they
had put procedures in place so that if lower ranked
police officers harbored concerns about the conduct of their superiors

(01:03:10):
in similar situations, there was now a number they could call. Undoubtedly,
anyone who used that number wouldn't be very popular, and
it's still not mandatory for forensics to automatically be called

(01:03:31):
in the event of an unexpected sudden death. While the
scene may have been lost, Amy Wensley's body was, however,
subjected to further examination. This included chemical analysis by Forensic
Science Laboratory Senior Chemist and Research Officer, doctor Cary Pitts,

(01:03:53):
who reported the following.

Speaker 9 (01:03:56):
One, no gunshot residue particles were detected on the sample
elected from the right thumb of Amy Lee Wensley. Two
twenty two particles consistent with gunshot residue were detected on
the sample collected from the left thumb of Ami Lee Wensley.

Speaker 1 (01:04:13):
While they were at the crime scene, Detectives Kirkman and
Wiederman determined Amy could have held and fired the gun
with her left hand, either with or without the assistance
of her right hand. There was a suggestion she could
have balanced the butt of the shotgun on the bed.

(01:04:36):
You'll remember, Amy was a very petite young woman, just
one hundred and sixty five centimeters tall and weighing just
fifty kilotes. Wa Police's own tests to the possibility of
her having shot herself were inconclusive. University of Western Australia

(01:04:59):
Professor of up hyde Anatomy and Biomechanics, Timothy Ackland, is
one of two biomechanical experts called on for independent analysis
of Amy's death, specifically whether suicide was possible. Professor Ackland

(01:05:20):
made findings on a series of questions, including one whether
Amy could have supported this shotgun in a near horizontal
orientation on her right side, with the barrel held to
her temple, using her left hand or with the support

(01:05:41):
of her right hand.

Speaker 7 (01:05:44):
In my report to the Coroner dated fourteenth of August
twenty eighteen, I concluded notwithstanding the deceased having sufficient strength
to support the shotgun, this does not mean she would
have had the ability to support, aim, and then push
the trigger with her left hand. This is a very
awkward posture to have adopted, especially when the task could

(01:06:04):
have more easily been accomplished by the use of the
right hand. I am not convinced that a person would
attempt such an action with just a left hand, especially
when the right hand could easily have been employed to
support the gun or pull the trigger. Our attempt to
recreate a scenario demonstrated clearly to me that such an
action proposed by the detectives who attended the scene is

(01:06:26):
not consistent with the evidence.

Speaker 1 (01:06:30):
Two, The probability that after a self inflicted gunshot, the
firearm could possibly have fallen where Gareth Price said he
found it, being that the firearm was in Amy's lap
with the barrel pointed up toward her head, while the

(01:06:50):
gun's butt was on the floor, is as follows.

Speaker 7 (01:06:54):
Mister Price as the first person who have entered the
bedroom after mister d. Simmons has stated the location of
the gun truthfully, then my conclusion remains that the gun
was placed there by a person other than the deceased.

Speaker 1 (01:07:07):
And three, Finally, whether it's possible Amy shot herself.

Speaker 7 (01:07:12):
My opinion expressed in my report to the coroner was
the deceased did not shoot herself. Nothing resulting from these
simulations and reconstructions has changed my view in this respect.
I therefore restate my opinions as follows. The evidence is
not consistent with the assertion of detectives who first attended
the scene that the deceased had pulled the trigger herself

(01:07:33):
using her left hand by pressing the butt of the
gun against the bed and leaning over with her left arm.
The evidence is also not consistent with the possible scenario
that the deceased had held the shotgun horizontally on her
right side and pushed the trigger using her left hand.
The evidence is highly consistent with the scenario that the
deceased was shot by another person who had held the

(01:07:55):
shot gun near horizontally on her right side with the
barrel closed to her right temper.

Speaker 1 (01:08:00):
So he then makes this determination.

Speaker 7 (01:08:04):
Following these simulations, I am now in the position to
add the evidence is also not consistent with the possible
scenario that the deceased had held the gun horizontally on
her right side and pushed the trigger using her right hand.

Speaker 1 (01:08:17):
Similarly, on the thirteenth of April twenty twenty, the other
independent expert engineer, Thomas J. Gibson, makes these following observations.

Speaker 14 (01:08:29):
Based on the available evidence, Miss Wensley may have held
the shotgun in two hands, left hand at the muzzle
and right hand at the trigger, and discharge the gun herself. However,
this scenario fails to adequately explain two features of the scene.
The position of the right hand of miss Wensley under

(01:08:49):
her right thigh and the position of the shotgun after
the shooting as reported by witnesses. Therefore, it is unlikely
the gun shot was self in flat by Miss Wensley.
There is no evidence to suggest that the gunshot was accidental.
The available evidence also allows an alternative scenario for the shooting.

(01:09:13):
Miss Wensley, when seated upright behind the door to the bedroom,
may have had a muzzle of the shotgun placed against
her right temple and been shot by another person. The
gunshot residue on Miss Wensley's left hand in this case,
resulting from attempting to ward off the shotgun.

Speaker 1 (01:09:32):
As well as being a chartered professional engineer with more
than thirty years experience in the area of biomechanics of impact,
injury causation and mitigation, Doctor Gibson has expertise in the
areas of accident reconstruction, vehicle design, biomechanics, and injury causation.

(01:09:57):
This is what the coroner said in her findings.

Speaker 10 (01:10:00):
I have some reservations about accepting Professor Ackland and doctor
Gibson's opinion that the biomechanical evidence is highly consistent with
the scenario that Amy was shot by another person and
taking that as compelling evidence that another person was involved
in Amy's death, given the many limitations that were inherent
in the experiment. In saying that, I make no criticism

(01:10:20):
of Professor Ackland, as he was placed in a difficult
position given there were so many unknowns. I accept he
did his best as a scientist to eliminate those factors,
but in my view, the weight to be given to
the conclusions must be reduced as a result. However, what
Professor Ackland and doctor Gibson's evidence does do is add

(01:10:41):
to the other evidence suggesting Amy did not commit suicide
sufficiently to create doubt about the police conclusion that the
evidence that Amy died by suicide is compelling.

Speaker 1 (01:10:58):
Hello, next week a family reunion. It's just so much,
and we speak to Amy's daughters.

Speaker 2 (01:11:11):
We shouldn't have come to the point where we didn't
know what happened.

Speaker 1 (01:11:15):
We should have just known on the.

Speaker 2 (01:11:17):
Day solation You see soda Rea, then.

Speaker 5 (01:11:39):
Until me.

Speaker 1 (01:11:44):
Until If you knew Amy and have information, any information
about her death, we'd love to hear from you. Just
email us at the Truth about Amy at seven dot

(01:12:06):
com dot AU. That's s E V E N. The
Truth about Amy at seven dot com dot au or
visit our website sevenews dot com dot au forward slash
the Truth about Amy. You can also send us an
anonymous tip at www dot the Truth about Amy dot com.

(01:12:33):
If you're on Facebook or Instagram, you can follow us
to see photos and updates relevant to the case, but
for legal reasons, unfortunately you won't be able to make
any comments. And remember, if you like what you're hearing,
don't forget to subscribe. Please rate and review our series

(01:12:55):
because it really helps new listeners to find us and
Presenter and executive producer Alison Sandy, Presenter and investigative journalist
Liam Bartlett, Sound design Mark Wright, Assistant producer Cassie Woodward,

(01:13:18):
Graphics Jason Blandford, and special thanks to Tim Clark and
Brian Seymour. This is a seven News production.