08: Deep Impact

Who is David Simmons?

 

This episode includes the track 'Identity Crisis' by Myuu at thedarkpiano.com

 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast contains information and details relating to suicide. We
urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline on
thirteen eleven fourteen thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at
lifeline dot org dot au. A twenty four year old

(00:29):
devoted mother of two fleeing a violent relationship as a
bags packed car running her daughters strapped into the backseat.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
Mom told me that she needed to go back inside
to grab something.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
Panic. I Amy is dead, Sir, I am his dead?
Eight Confusion World, about five minutes.

Speaker 3 (00:55):
Say sit not to suicide one hundred percent. This is Emercy.

Speaker 1 (01:01):
What do you think is really the honest truth about Amy?

Speaker 4 (01:06):
The Truth about Amy?

Speaker 5 (01:08):
Mum Episode eight.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
I'm Liam Bartlett.

Speaker 5 (01:22):
And I'm Alison Sandy one two.

Speaker 6 (01:27):
I love her lots and she loves me and mummy.

Speaker 5 (01:36):
This is a home video just before Amy died, showing
a very excited and enthusiastic Tay and her prep class,
singing and doing actions again when she gets to the
park and she loves.

Speaker 7 (01:51):
Me and she loves me.

Speaker 5 (01:53):
Tay points to Amy, who's feeling on her phone. M
At the end, Amy cheers and claps louder than anyone else.

Speaker 3 (02:06):
One man name.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
When this was recorded, Amy and Tay's father, David Simmons,
had been together almost six years. A lot had happened
in that time, and their relationship was coming to a
critical juncture. But before we get to that, here's what
we know about David simmons life to this point. He

(02:38):
was born twenty sixth of January nineteen eighty four to
Robert Simmons and Evelyn Foggerty, so when Amy died he
was thirty. He had one sister and two half sisters,
all younger than he is. Simmons is one hundred and
seventy six centimeters tall, brown hair and brown eyes, and

(03:00):
when he was with Amy, looks to have weighed about
ninety kiloats. According to police records, he's known as a
prohibited drug user who may be carrying a weapon such
as a knife or a club, and suffers depression. Simmons

(03:20):
has a lengthy record dating back to about two thousand
and four. It'd take too long to go through all
of his criminal and traffic violations, but the worst of
it includes assault, threats to injure, en danger and harm
any person, and drug possession. He's been in a number

(03:41):
of fights, usually while intoxicated is considered violent and dangerous, and,
like Larry said, quite the handful question is could he
have killed Amy. Here's what David Simmons told police in
his statement the night Amy died.

Speaker 8 (04:07):
I am thirty years of age and live in Serpentine.
I am currently self employed. On Thursday, the twenty sixth
of June, at about four pm, I was at my
home address two seven eighty three Southwest Highway, Serpentine. I
was in company with my two friends, Josh Brydon and
Gareth Price. It was at this time that my partner,

(04:28):
Amy Lee Wensley, arrived home with my two children, who
she had just picked up from school. Amy came into
the house with the kids and asked me what I
had been doing all day. I told her that I
had been cutting wood with my friends and I was
about to go and look for some more. This quickly
escalated into an argument between us. During the argument, we
were in the master bedroom, where Amy knocked over a

(04:51):
large mirror towards me. I stopped it from falling to
the ground. Amy began to hit me several times, and
when I tried to grab her to stop her, she
head butted my lip, causing it to split. I managed
to restrain Amy on the floor of the bedroom, where
I held her until she calmed down. I held her
there for a couple of seconds. After I let her go,

(05:12):
Amy went out to the shed at the northwest side
of the house. She was with my daughter Naya. I
was still in the house when Naa came back inside
crying and screaming. I gave Nea a cuddle, and she
told me that Amy had smashed a fish tank in
the shed. I went out to the shed and began
to clean up the glass that had been smashed on
the floor. Amy had already left the shed when I

(05:34):
got there. I was cleaning in the shed for about
two minutes.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
According to evidence provided by Price and Brdon, they were
cleaning up the lizard tag, not Simmons.

Speaker 8 (05:46):
When I came back into the house, Amy had begun
to pack her bags. I asked her what she was doing,
and she said that she was going to stay at
her mum's house. I helped her pack some items and
then took the kids to the car at the front
of the property. After the kids were in the car,
I went back to see if Amy wanted anything else
and if I could help her. Amy said she needed

(06:07):
to calm down a little bit before she drove to
her mum's. I went and got another bag full of
kids clothes and took it out to the car as well.
Not long after, I was waiting for Amy and the
kids by the car and I heard a thud. I
went back inside the house, straight to the bedroom and knocked,
calling out to Amy. There was no answer, so I
opened the door slightly again. When Price tells it, she said,

(06:31):
just a minute, I could see Amy's foot just inside
the bedroom. The next thing I saw was Amy laying
on the floor of the bedroom with a shotgun next
to her.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
So Simmons says, here she was laying down with the
gun next to her, while Price said she'd been sitting
up with the gun on her lap.

Speaker 8 (06:51):
I could see the back of her skull was missing.
I went back to the car and told Gareth about Amy.
Gareth had been waiting for Amy with the kids and myself.
Neither myself nor Gareth have working mobile phones, so we
drove to the petrol station nearby to call the ambulance.
I did not want the children to find out, so
I dropped Gareth at the house then took the kids

(07:12):
to Amy's parents house. When I got back from Amy's
parents house in Pinjarra, the police had arrived. Where the
front of my address is. I provided them this statement there.
Both myself and Amy have a current firearms license. I
own a twenty two and a three to eight rifle,
as well as the four ten and a twelve gage shotgun.

(07:35):
Amy owns a twenty two rifle. All these guns are
stored unsecured in the wardrobe of the master bedroom. The
ammunition is also stored in the wardrobe, but high up
on a shelf. The shotgun I saw next to Amy
was my four ten boito shotgun. It was facing towards her,
down by her legs, about a meter away. I drew

(07:57):
a sketch of the room where I found Amy for
the police. The statement is true to the best of
my knowledge and belief. I have made this statement knowing
that if it is tendered in evidence, I will be
guilty of a crime if I have wilfully included in
the statement anything that I know to be false or
that I do not believe is true.

Speaker 5 (08:22):
Like Gareth, there are other statements David made, once to
major Crime and again the cold case but none of
these are available. However, information from them are referred to
at the inquest. Now, you may recall that David didn't
turn up to the Coroner's Court the day he was
scheduled to appear. Counsel assisting the family requested a bench warrant,

(08:44):
but this wasn't supported by WA Police and Deputy State
Coroner Sarah Linton did not proceed with one. He does
turn up the following day, but at Armadale Court and
is heard via videolink. Counsel assisting the Coroner, Sarah Tyler,
begins the questioning.

Speaker 7 (09:06):
Could you state your full name for the court please, David,
Robert Simmons and David just for the benefit of the court,
for everyone in the court. You contacted the Coroner's Court
yesterday to explain that you were feeling a bit overwhelmed
with this process, which is why you didn't come yesterday.
Is that right, Yes, ma'am. Yes, you're feeling okay today

(09:27):
and you're willing to tell the coroner what you remember
about Amy's death.

Speaker 8 (09:31):
Yes, I can, yes.

Speaker 7 (09:33):
All right now, I understand that you've already given statements
to the police and you've participated in police interviews about
Amy's death. The first statement that you gave was on
the twenty sixth of June twenty fourteen, and the night
that Amy died. It was a seven page long statement
and you wrote that while you were waiting on the
roadside at the property belonging to your father. Is that right?

Speaker 8 (09:56):
I can't remember exactly, but yes, I do remember talking.

Speaker 7 (10:00):
Sorry I just interrupted you. What did you say?

Speaker 8 (10:02):
I do remember talking to them? Yes, yes, when.

Speaker 7 (10:05):
You spoke to the police on that occasion, would you
have told everything that you told them then to be
the truth?

Speaker 8 (10:13):
Yes? I can't see why not.

Speaker 7 (10:14):
Okay, Well, you were then interviewed by the police that Saturday.
So on twenty eighth of June twenty fourteen, you were
taken to the police station under arrest and you participated
in a recorded interview. Do you remember that not as well?

Speaker 8 (10:28):
No? I yes, okay. Based do you remember being arrested
and taking into Rockingham?

Speaker 7 (10:33):
Yes, yes, all right, based on what you do remember,
do you think that everything you would have told the
police in that interview would have been true?

Speaker 8 (10:42):
Yes, ma'am, all right.

Speaker 7 (10:44):
So there's nothing that you would want to change based
on that interview with the police.

Speaker 8 (10:48):
Or a mend I can't really remember either of them,
all right.

Speaker 7 (10:52):
And just the last interview that you did was on
eighth of January twenty nineteen. Yes, Would everything that you
said to police on that occasion have been true? Yes,
to the best of your memory. Is there anything that
you would want to change based on what you said
to the police on that day?

Speaker 8 (11:07):
No.

Speaker 1 (11:08):
Mss Tyler proceeds to the day of Amy's death.

Speaker 7 (11:12):
Can you picture that day in your mind?

Speaker 8 (11:14):
Yes?

Speaker 7 (11:15):
What do you remember about that day?

Speaker 8 (11:16):
Me and my partner having an argument and just yes.

Speaker 7 (11:19):
Yes, all right. Now, my understanding, we've heard evidence from
a lot of different witnesses in the course of this inquest,
and we've read a lot of statements that were given
very closely after Amy died. Based on that information, my
understanding is that Gareth and Rachel came over and stayed
at your house the night before, everyone watched a movie,

(11:41):
and then the next morning Gareth got up and went
to work.

Speaker 8 (11:44):
Do you remember that vaguely? Yes?

Speaker 7 (11:47):
All right? On that day, twenty sixth of June, you
had a plan to go out shopping with one of
your friends, Josh Brydon. Is that right?

Speaker 8 (11:55):
I think so?

Speaker 1 (11:56):
Maybe?

Speaker 8 (11:56):
Yes? Cut a little bit of firewood to get by,
all right, Goosh.

Speaker 7 (12:00):
Has given evidence that he went out with you that
morning to chop some wood. Yes, and while you guys
were out chopping wood, you didn't have access to your phone,
so Josh was sending messages to Amy on your behalf.
Do you remember that happening?

Speaker 8 (12:14):
I can very vaguely, but yes, yes. My phone was
in Jaredale on the rubbish bin. I was staying there
at night the night before. And remember that I left
it because I couldn't find.

Speaker 7 (12:25):
It where in Jaredale at Gareth's.

Speaker 8 (12:28):
House because we went up there the night before or yeah,
it was it was the night before. We went up
there to get something from his place. I can't remember
what it was, movies or something, and then we went
back to the house. I'd left the phone on the
rubbish bin and a pissed down rain that night, so
the next day I didn't have a phone.

Speaker 7 (12:50):
We know that all the evidence we heard from Josh
and garethe is that you went back to You went
to Gareth's house with Joshua at around three o'clock, which
is when Gareth would have finished work. You picked him up.
Do you remember anything about that?

Speaker 8 (13:03):
No, no.

Speaker 7 (13:04):
Gareth gave some evidence that he jumped on the back
of the ute and was drinking some beers from an eski,
and that he was passing beers through the windows of
the car for you and Josh to drink as well
as you went back to your house. Does that ring
any bells to you?

Speaker 8 (13:18):
I can't remember.

Speaker 7 (13:19):
No, that's all right. Do you know if you were
drinking that day?

Speaker 8 (13:23):
I would usually have a couple, yes, but I'm not
sure if I had any that day, I can't remember.

Speaker 7 (13:29):
I can't remember, that's all right. We know that at
eleven forty six am, so just before lunchtime, Josh sent
Amy a message saying, Simo wants to know where you are.
That would have been after you had done some wood
chopping in the morning, but around lunchtime. So whether you
might have gone home or we don't really know where
you were at that time. Do you know why you

(13:51):
would have been asking after Amy at that time?

Speaker 8 (13:53):
Maybe so I could stop in and have some lunch
or something. I'm not sure.

Speaker 7 (13:57):
Okay, we know that Amy said she was on her
way home, and there was some conversation about going down
to Gareth's house to pick up your phone. With Amy
saying you know, does Simo want me to go down
and pick up the phone, and asking Josh to get
you to give her a call. Amy sent a message
later on to say got his phone, and a message
later saying where the fuck are you at twelve forty

(14:21):
seven pm. Do you remember getting any of those messages?

Speaker 8 (14:25):
I remember, No, I don't know, all right.

Speaker 7 (14:30):
Do you remember there being any discussion that day between
you and Josh about whether Amy was annoyed that you
weren't home or whether there was anything else going on?

Speaker 8 (14:39):
No? Okay, no, yes, Like I said, I remember the
phone was up there. I remember saying to her that's
where it could be, and then I can't remember her
telling me she went and got it.

Speaker 7 (14:49):
Okay. There were some later messages from Amy to Josh's
phone that start at two forty three pm that talk
about the wood buyer coming around, and it sounds to
me in reading those messages that Amy was pretty stressed
about the fact the wood buyer might be coming over
and you weren't there, so she sent some messages saying

(15:10):
does he know the woodbuyer is coming in fifteen minutes?
Did he give the address to the wood buyer? And
asking for a response. Do you remember Josh talking to
you about anything about that?

Speaker 8 (15:21):
No, I don't know.

Speaker 7 (15:23):
Do you remember there being an arrangement for the wood
buyer to come around?

Speaker 8 (15:27):
No?

Speaker 9 (15:28):
All right.

Speaker 7 (15:29):
In the course of your relationship, we know you were
together for nearly six years. If you didn't respond to
Amy for a couple of hours on text message, how
would she normally react?

Speaker 8 (15:39):
Well, I always had a phone, so I would usually
message back.

Speaker 7 (15:43):
But she was pretty good, okay, So it wasn't really
something that came up before in your relationship, any tension
if you didn't respond to her.

Speaker 8 (15:52):
No, carrying on like that? No?

Speaker 7 (15:54):
All right. Well, when you say carrying on like that,
is that a reference to what happened later on or
is there something else that happened?

Speaker 8 (16:03):
No, that's the words you were using just before.

Speaker 7 (16:05):
Whether something wouldn't normally send repeated messages saying where are you?
What the fuck is going on? Things like that?

Speaker 8 (16:14):
No?

Speaker 7 (16:15):
Alright, we know from Amy's Facebook messenger that at three
point fifty one PM, which is very shortly before I
think you and Josh and Gareth say you got him
Josh to send a message to Amy saying where are you?
Do you know anything about that. Would that have been
sent when you got home?

Speaker 8 (16:34):
Probably? I can't remember.

Speaker 7 (16:36):
Yes, all right, Well where would Amy? Where do you
think Amy was just before at that time?

Speaker 8 (16:42):
In that time, she would have been picking the kids
up from school because they used to catch the bus.
They used to catch the bus every day.

Speaker 7 (16:50):
All right? What time would they normally get home?

Speaker 8 (16:53):
A half past three quarter to four?

Speaker 7 (16:56):
Yes, and Amy would have to go down to the
bus to meet them. Is that right?

Speaker 8 (17:01):
Yes?

Speaker 7 (17:02):
Yes, After that message that Josh sent to Amy saying
where are you, Amy sent a message back at three
point fifty two pm, And it's the last message that
we know that Amy sent, and that said gone crazy.
Do you remember Josh telling you that?

Speaker 8 (17:19):
No?

Speaker 7 (17:19):
Do you know what that is in reference to?

Speaker 2 (17:22):
No?

Speaker 7 (17:22):
Is it your understanding that Amy was unhappy with you
that day?

Speaker 8 (17:26):
Well, it was clear when when she got home.

Speaker 7 (17:29):
Yes, you didn't realize before she got home that she
was unhappy with you?

Speaker 8 (17:34):
No? No, she Yes, the way she went off that day,
I'm not sure how to describe it, but I've never
seen her go like that ever before.

Speaker 7 (17:43):
All right, so you're at home. Do you remember Amy
and the kids getting home?

Speaker 8 (17:48):
Yes?

Speaker 7 (17:49):
Roughly, not real Well, what do you remember about that?

Speaker 8 (17:53):
I don't know. My memory is not real good from that.

Speaker 7 (17:55):
Day, that's okay. Do you remember if Amy seemed upset
or stressed or if she was her normal self? How
did she seem?

Speaker 8 (18:04):
She was on edge? For sure? And I suppose from yes,
well she I can't remember how it all started or
where the kids were exactly and everything, but just but
she went and started going off.

Speaker 7 (18:20):
All right, And we know that your police interview, you
said that she was shitty, she was angry, She was
asking what you had been doing, things like that, and
you said that she asked you why you didn't wait
for her or something, and you said that you went
back out to cut some more logs. Yes, all right.
Do you remember when your argument we the amysstarted? Do

(18:42):
you remember where you were? Were you outside? Were you
inside the house?

Speaker 8 (18:47):
I think it started outside. I'm not sure, but I
remember telling her that I was going out somewhere, and
she said, where have I been all day? Or something
like that, because she hadn't been able to get a
hold of me on the phone, and she knew where
the phone was. And then I said, well, I went
to Jaredale to pick it up, and she said, well,

(19:07):
I already fucking did or something. And yeah, that's how
it started, all right.

Speaker 7 (19:12):
And what happened after that.

Speaker 8 (19:14):
Well, I've said I'm going back out quickly. I'll be
back in an hour or something, because I seen a
big wild pig out there when I was cutting wood,
and I never got told I wasn't allowed to go
back out ever, Like if I seen a big boar
or something and I grabbed my dogs and went out
and got it, I would come back. And I asked
her to go with me, and she said, I don't know.

(19:35):
She was just going off, going off, and I didn't
know what to do because I haven't seen her go
off like that. There was something majorly wrong, and obviously
I should have.

Speaker 7 (19:46):
Well, Gareth and Josh still there, do you remember when
all this was happening?

Speaker 8 (19:50):
Yes?

Speaker 7 (19:51):
Yes, do you know where they were?

Speaker 8 (19:53):
They were sitting in the kitchen, I think we all were.
And then Amy tried to throw a mirror at me.
Was the mirror in the hallway, pulled it straight off
the wall, and tried to throw it at me, straight
at me, yes, straight at my head.

Speaker 7 (20:08):
And when you say throw it at you, did she
let go of itsh or what happened.

Speaker 8 (20:12):
Yes, it smashed all over the place.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
You'll note this is inconsistent with what Price and Brydon said.
The mirror was still intact according to them, and was
moved away by Price so it wouldn't get smashed. Simmons
makes no mention of him and Amy heading to the
bedroom to argue, like Brydon said in his statement to police.

(20:38):
Given that's in line with what Price said as well,
it's more likely Brighton also witnessed the entire fight.

Speaker 7 (20:54):
It smashed, did it, yes?

Speaker 8 (20:56):
I think I've blocked it, hit it away from my.

Speaker 7 (20:58):
Arm and so bounced off your hand. Did this yes?

Speaker 8 (21:03):
Yes, well I yeah, hit me and then the wall
and then smashed.

Speaker 7 (21:08):
What happened after she threw it at you?

Speaker 8 (21:10):
I realized that it was I don't know. I just
grabbed her and I asked her what was wrong? What
the hell's going on? Why are you doing this?

Speaker 7 (21:19):
Okay? What did she say?

Speaker 8 (21:21):
She says, I'm leaving you. I'm leaving you? And I said, well,
all right, I don't know. Whatever. I said, Well, you're
not driving anywhere like this with the kids in the car.
The kids can stay here the night and you can
come back and see them tomorrow. What did she say,
She said, no, I'm taking the kids. I said, well,
go in the room, pack your stuff up or whatever,

(21:42):
and I'll pack up the car and put the kids
in there, and you can go when you calm down.

Speaker 7 (21:47):
Yes, And what did she say to that?

Speaker 8 (21:49):
She said, yes, all right. So she was in the
room there for I don't know, maybe half an hour,
twenty minutes. Yes, and yes, yes, that's when I heard
a noise.

Speaker 1 (22:02):
Now, remember, Price said, Amy went back and forth from
the car about four times.

Speaker 8 (22:08):
And I was outside with the kids in the car.

Speaker 1 (22:11):
Naya recalls at the time she saw Simmons go back
in the house. Miss Tyler returns to the argument they
had prior.

Speaker 7 (22:20):
We've heard from Gareth and Josh about what they saw
In terms of this fight between you and Amy. Gareth
gave evidence in his interviews that there was a bit
more of a physical part to the altercation between you
and Amy. He made reference to Amy punching you. Do
you remember that happening?

Speaker 8 (22:37):
Yes?

Speaker 7 (22:37):
He said that you had Amy in a headlock at
one stage. Do you remember that I had to hold her? Yes, restrainer,
but yes, it wasn't a headlock. I just had a hands.
I can't remember, but it wasn't a headlock. I just
like held her close and tried to stop her from
carrying on bear hug action. How would you describe it?

Speaker 8 (22:59):
Well, I was in the hallway and she was on
the floor, and I held her hands and just put
on my weight on top of her and I just
held her there.

Speaker 7 (23:08):
Gareth said that you grabbed or choked or something and
then you went to the floor. Did you choke Amy
in the course of this fight?

Speaker 8 (23:16):
I can't remember.

Speaker 7 (23:17):
Do you think you would have?

Speaker 8 (23:18):
I don't know. It was pretty pretty violent what she
tried to do.

Speaker 7 (23:23):
We know that. Well, we've heard evidence from a forensic
pathologist at this inquest who said Amy had bruises to
her wrists. Do you think she she got those bruises
from you holding her down? Yes, she also had some
other bruises scattered across her body. Some of the bruises
were fresh, some weren't tested to see whether they were fresh.

(23:46):
Do you think Amy could have gotten bruises on other
parts of her body in this fight with you?

Speaker 8 (23:51):
Well, she could have gotten bruises anyway. She was on motorbikes,
playing with horses and lived on a farm.

Speaker 1 (23:57):
Notice there are no questions about Amy possibly having sustained
those bruises in other altercations with him.

Speaker 7 (24:05):
In terms of going down to the floor and restraining
her there. How did you end up on the floor,
do you remember?

Speaker 8 (24:12):
I can't remember exactly. No, all right?

Speaker 7 (24:15):
And you said the fight effectively ended and Amy calmed down?
Is that right?

Speaker 8 (24:21):
Yes, she went into the room and she was pretty angry.

Speaker 7 (24:25):
We've heard evidence from some of Amy's friends in the
course of this inquest, and I think one of them
is a person that you know from when you first
started your relationship with Amy, miss Selsa. Miss Selsa asked
about her view of your relationship with Amy and things
that she observed, and miss Selsa expressed real surprise at
the suggestion that you would be the one calming an

(24:47):
argument down. Her understanding of you is that you would
be very unlikely to react calmly if Amy was ever
violent to you. Would you agree with that?

Speaker 8 (24:57):
No, I've never later had and on Amy in my life.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
Now, if Simmons is to be believed here, it begs
the question why would Natasha Selsa make that up. He
then goes on to say how Amy was the violent one,
even recalling an incident where she once hog tied him.

Speaker 8 (25:17):
And I've been hit. I've been hit by her multiple times.
And a couple of weeks before that, I got home
from pig hunting. We were supposed to go to a
kid's birthday party. I'd come home and I was buggered,
and I went to sleep. I said, give me a
couple of hours sleep and I'll get up and we'll go.
And I woke up and my hands taped together behind
my back, and my feet taped together, my mouth tape shut,

(25:39):
and I was in bed and she was just laughing
at me.

Speaker 2 (25:41):
When was this?

Speaker 8 (25:42):
This was about two weeks before well, I can't remember
exactly before she killed herself.

Speaker 7 (25:49):
Did Amy untie you?

Speaker 8 (25:51):
Yes? Eventually?

Speaker 7 (25:52):
What did she say about that? Why did that happen?

Speaker 8 (25:56):
She said, we were supposed to go to this kid's
birthday party. Blah blah blah blah. That's what you get
for coming home and not doing what you said you
were going to do.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
There is no one else who can verify this actually happened.
We can only rely upon simmons word. Mss Tyler then
asks about the incident Natasha witnessed of Simmons bending Amy's
back over a table and grabbing her by the throat
when she was nine months pregnant.

Speaker 8 (26:23):
No, not possible. Not possible, because we by the time
Amy was three months pregnant, and we decide we're going
to have it. Within two weeks, I had my own
house and it furnished. No one lived with us at all.

Speaker 7 (26:40):
I've misunderstood. I'm sorry. Apparently miss Selsa was visiting Amy.

Speaker 8 (26:44):
No, I don't remember that.

Speaker 7 (26:45):
Are there any incidents in your relationship with Amy where
you were the aggressor where you were violent towards her?

Speaker 8 (26:54):
Yes, I can remember one time that I was violent
to her, but I didn't physical hurt her. I just
restrained her again and just said, look, if you're going
to keep carrying on like that, you're best off leaving
instead of trying to make me upset.

Speaker 7 (27:10):
Okay, we know that Amy sent a message to Aaron Claybrook,
who's another friend of hers, saying that she had an
argument with you about your drinking and that she punched you.
And after she punched you, you grabbed her, and she
said the words chucked her around the room. Do you
remember an argument like that?

Speaker 1 (27:31):
No, Missus Tyler is referring to Erin Gower, who has
since married.

Speaker 7 (27:37):
Did Amy ever leave you?

Speaker 8 (27:39):
Well, I suppose if she was upset, I had to
go because she had the house, had the kids, so
I was only really No, she never but this that
day she said she was leaving me. Yes, she done it.

Speaker 7 (27:56):
How did you react to that information? Were you worried
about her about losing the kids?

Speaker 8 (28:02):
Well, of course, but she'd flown off the handle a
few times before, so I just sort of thought she
was just going to go and calm down and come back.
And but this time she never.

Speaker 7 (28:12):
We know that. Very shortly before Amy died, Nancy called
her and she spoke to her mom and she told
her mom that she had had a big fight with you,
that she had thrown a beer bottle at you and
that and she had punched you, and she said that
you then wrestled her to the ground and there had
been a fight between you.

Speaker 8 (28:32):
Yes.

Speaker 7 (28:33):
Do you remember Amy throwing a beer bottle at you?

Speaker 8 (28:36):
I can't remember the beer bottle. No, I've never seen
her go like that before, ever, like that angry.

Speaker 7 (28:41):
Were you yelling at her?

Speaker 8 (28:43):
Yes? I did yell at her.

Speaker 1 (28:45):
Yes, Now you might recall, Brydon said, Simo never yelled
instead asking Amy calmly, have I ever hurt you? Have
I ever hit you, with Amy replying.

Speaker 2 (28:59):
No, you have hurt me.

Speaker 4 (29:01):
You have never hit me.

Speaker 8 (29:02):
I said, there's no need to smash the fucking house up,
and if you're going to leave, calm down and piss off.
I said, yes, well like yes, it was not my house.
I had to pay rent. Then you know, if she's
going to smash the house up, she's going to I
don't know.

Speaker 7 (29:17):
We just we heard from your dad that he let
you stay there rent free.

Speaker 8 (29:22):
Well, I don't know, I can't remember. Yes.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
Miss Tyler asks if he's embarrassed about having the fight
in front of Brydon and Price, to which Simmons replies yes.
He's then asked if he tried to go into the
main bedroom at any point.

Speaker 8 (29:40):
Yes. I knocked on the door about three or four times,
asking if she was all right. She just just kept
saying no, not yet, not ready.

Speaker 7 (29:49):
All right. Do you remember there being any problems with
the door handle of that bedroom.

Speaker 8 (29:54):
No.

Speaker 2 (29:54):
One.

Speaker 7 (29:54):
Unusual thing that was noticed in the cold Case homicide
review in twenty nineteen, I think is that the outside
door handle in the hallway to the bedroom is attached,
but inside, the door handle was missing, and we know
that after Amy died and professional cleaners entered the room,
that door handle was reattached. Do you know anything about

(30:16):
that missing door handle?

Speaker 1 (30:18):
Not?

Speaker 8 (30:19):
In my I can't recall.

Speaker 7 (30:21):
No, you don't remember there being any ever problems with
the door handle.

Speaker 2 (30:26):
No.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
Here he discusses the lizard tank incident.

Speaker 8 (30:31):
When I told her she wasn't driving anywhere, I think
she walked out to the shed, went through the shed,
flipped the well through, the bloody lizard tank smashed all
over the floor.

Speaker 7 (30:41):
Did you see her do that?

Speaker 8 (30:43):
No, but I heard it.

Speaker 7 (30:45):
Do you remember anyone else telling you that?

Speaker 8 (30:47):
No?

Speaker 7 (30:47):
Do you remember the kids saying anything about the smashed
lizard tank? No, So she Amy went out to the
shed and smashed the lizard tank before she went back
to the bedroom.

Speaker 8 (30:58):
Yes, I think so. Yes.

Speaker 7 (31:01):
One of the big concerns I think for the family
is that Amy's clothes were packed in the car, as
were Tay's birthday presents and belongings for the children, and
the family find it really difficult to reconcile that Amy
had packed up clothes ready to go with the kids
in the car and then decided to go into the
bedroom and commit suicide. Can you shed any light on

(31:25):
why the car might have been packed up with her
belongings like she was leaving.

Speaker 8 (31:29):
I just told you I packed it all in there
for her. She was telling me what to put in there,
and she didn't come out of the room.

Speaker 7 (31:37):
So Amy didn't do any trips out to the car
to load stuff up.

Speaker 8 (31:41):
No, okay, well I can't remember. She might have.

Speaker 1 (31:46):
We moved to the part where the kids are in
the car and Simmons and Price are with them.

Speaker 7 (31:52):
Was there any reason you put music on just so the.

Speaker 8 (31:56):
Kids weren't sitting there just without any music on? I
don't know.

Speaker 7 (32:00):
Were you doing anything else outside the car?

Speaker 8 (32:03):
No?

Speaker 2 (32:03):
You know that?

Speaker 7 (32:04):
Nao was interviewed by police, Yes, and said that while
you were at the car, she saw you use the
twenty two shot gun to shoot at a tree. Do
you remember anything about that?

Speaker 8 (32:16):
Yes? Yes, yeah, I did have the twenty two out.

Speaker 7 (32:20):
Yes, where was that? Where did you get it from?

Speaker 8 (32:24):
It was my rifle. I shot it. The parrots used
to eat my olives off the olive tree, so I
was trying to thin the parrots out.

Speaker 7 (32:31):
Did you go into the house to get your gun?

Speaker 8 (32:33):
No, it was in the it was in the gun
safe in the shed.

Speaker 7 (32:37):
In the shed, right, Yes, So you went into the
shed to get the gun.

Speaker 8 (32:42):
Yes?

Speaker 7 (32:43):
And what did you do with the gun after you
had shot at the parrots?

Speaker 8 (32:47):
Can't remember where it was where I put it.

Speaker 7 (32:49):
Did you take the gun into the bedroom at.

Speaker 8 (32:51):
Any point, No, not that I can remember. No.

Speaker 7 (32:55):
Did you go into the bedroom at any point before
you heard the sound?

Speaker 8 (32:59):
Not that I can remember.

Speaker 1 (33:01):
So that's it. Simmons says he can't remember going back
into the room or taking the gun into the bedroom.

Speaker 7 (33:09):
What can you tell me about the sound that made you?
Where were you when you heard this sound that we've
referred to.

Speaker 8 (33:16):
I was standing on the driver's side of the commodore
and I heard this. It was a thud and I
just ran. I ran into the bedroom. I knocked on
the door, no answer, and that's when I opened the
door and the door hit her leg and that's just

(33:37):
the life come out of me. And I just couldn't
believe what had happened. I ran outside bawling my eyes out.

Speaker 7 (33:44):
Yellen, why was anyone else around?

Speaker 8 (33:47):
Then Gareth came around the corner, asking what's going on?
And I said, she shot herself don't go in there.
Don't go in there.

Speaker 1 (34:01):
Remember. In Price's testimony, he recalls Simo asking is she alive? But,
as one of the detectives pointed out, the discrepancies show
an original line of thought, and rather than explain the
ongoing inconsistencies, Simmons is asked again about where they were

(34:23):
when they heard the thud.

Speaker 7 (34:25):
Again, So can you take me through that a bit
more slowly? And I know it's not pleasant to talk about.
You were at the commodore, Yes, were you talking to
the kids?

Speaker 8 (34:37):
I remember hearing the noise and running inside and opening
the door.

Speaker 7 (34:41):
Yes, where was garis.

Speaker 8 (34:43):
Standing at the boot? We were just putting stuff in.

Speaker 1 (34:46):
Again. In Price's testimony, he says Amy didn't want his
help when he asked. All he recalls doing is holding
the door open for her.

Speaker 7 (34:57):
Can you describe the noise for me?

Speaker 8 (35:00):
Just a thud, A loud thud.

Speaker 7 (35:02):
You're familiar with guns. Did it sound like a gunshot
to you?

Speaker 8 (35:06):
It sounded close.

Speaker 1 (35:08):
It sounded close. Well, it's always been a thud, not
a blast or even a crack. Simmons is again asked
to clarify the thud as a gunshot.

Speaker 7 (35:21):
When you say you ran inside. Did you run at
speed or did you walk? How fast were you moving?

Speaker 8 (35:26):
I ran as quick as I could.

Speaker 7 (35:28):
Is that because you knew it was a gunshot and
sounded like a gunshot to you?

Speaker 8 (35:34):
I suppose yes, it was just yes.

Speaker 7 (35:37):
I know it's hard to think back on exactly what
you were thinking at that point, but that's what I'm asking.
Do you know what you were thinking when you heard
that noise?

Speaker 8 (35:48):
Yes? I thought it was a gunshot.

Speaker 1 (35:51):
Simmons says he was in the door first and doesn't
know where Gareth was at this time. He says he
ran around to the back door, through the hallway to
the room.

Speaker 7 (36:01):
Okay, And when you get to the hallway, you're at
the room. Do you remember whether the door is open
or closed?

Speaker 8 (36:08):
Closed?

Speaker 7 (36:09):
And you've gone to the door handle and pushed it open?
Is that right?

Speaker 8 (36:13):
Yes?

Speaker 7 (36:14):
Did you push it open gently? Did you push it
open forcefully? Do you remember?

Speaker 8 (36:19):
Yes? I pushed it open slowly, slowly.

Speaker 7 (36:23):
Did you go straight in or did you poke your
head around the corner.

Speaker 8 (36:26):
I just looked around the corner. I didn't go in.
I shut the door all right.

Speaker 7 (36:31):
When you looked around the corner, you've said the door
hit Amy's leg. Do you remember which part of her
leg it hit?

Speaker 8 (36:38):
Yeah, like a knee area about there somewhere, I think.

Speaker 7 (36:42):
And you've pointed to your left knee or her right knee.
He left her left knee. Yes, we have photographs that
were taken by the responding police. I don't want it,
so I'm not going to show them to you, but
they show her body in a particular position. And one
of the main concerns at this inquest is that the
position that Amy's body ended up in seems inconsistent with

(37:04):
her pulling the trigger herself. One of the major issues
is that her right hand was underneath her buttock or figh.
Do you remember noticing anything about the position of her
hands when you entered the room?

Speaker 8 (37:18):
No?

Speaker 7 (37:18):
Are you certain that the door hit Amy's left leg?

Speaker 8 (37:23):
Yes?

Speaker 7 (37:23):
Was Amy facing towards the door or away from the
door when you entered the room towards the door? Was
she leaning against the wall?

Speaker 8 (37:32):
I think so to the right. Yes, I come in
the door. She was sitting the same angle as I'm
on and I think she was leaning like that.

Speaker 7 (37:42):
Like facing you if you come through the door.

Speaker 8 (37:44):
I can't I can't remember, I can't remember.

Speaker 7 (37:48):
No, do you remember seeing the gun, Yes, where was
it in between her legs? And I ask about the
gun because again, the position that the gun ended up in,
based on the descriptions given by Garrett and potentially yourself,
isn't necessarily consistent with where the gun would land if
she had pulled the trigger herself. So it's important if

(38:09):
you can to give us as much information as possible
about where the gun actually was when you saw her,
given that you were the first person in the room afterwards.
Is there any more detail that you can give than
that I.

Speaker 8 (38:23):
Can't remember exactly.

Speaker 7 (38:24):
No, And just so you're clear, we obviously have had
the chance to read your interviews with the police as well,
and when you gave your description of where the gun
was in those interviews, you said it was either across
her legs, or between her legs, or to the side.
So it seems that you weren't terribly clear when you

(38:46):
spoke to the police about where the gun was. Is
that's still consistent with your memory? You're not sure.

Speaker 8 (38:54):
Vaguely, I thought it was in the middle and across
one leg, but I can't I can't say because I
can't remember exactly right.

Speaker 7 (39:02):
Do you know how long you would have been in
the room or looking in the room looking at Amy.

Speaker 8 (39:09):
A couple of seconds.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
Now, the fact that David had three different versions of
where the gun was upon finding Amy's body should be
enough to count his testimony as unreliable. But as we
mentioned before, these discrepancies were just put down to trauma
and or alcohol consumption, which seems to be the same

(39:33):
excuse for why he didn't remember his dad was home.

Speaker 7 (39:37):
Okay, so did you think about going to your dad's Yes?

Speaker 1 (39:41):
I did.

Speaker 8 (39:42):
Yes, And the.

Speaker 7 (39:43):
Reason you didn't go up to your dad's is because
you didn't know if he was at home or not. Yes,
all right, so there has been a decision to go
to the roadhouse.

Speaker 8 (39:53):
Yes.

Speaker 7 (39:54):
Do you remember Naya asking any questions about the bins
or any comments being made about the No? No, did
you drop anything off in the bins on the way
in or out of the property?

Speaker 2 (40:08):
No?

Speaker 1 (40:09):
Later, he's asked about drinking on the night Amy died.

Speaker 7 (40:13):
Do you think you were drunk the night that Amy
died at any point before she died?

Speaker 8 (40:18):
I can't remember. I don't think so.

Speaker 7 (40:20):
Had you taken any drugs that day?

Speaker 8 (40:23):
No?

Speaker 7 (40:23):
Do you remember being taken to the police station having
some forensic procedures after Amy died. The police took your
clothes and did some things like that. Yes, did they
ask you what you were wearing when Amy died?

Speaker 8 (40:37):
They probably would have. I can't remember.

Speaker 7 (40:40):
When you were interviewed in twenty nineteen, the police asks
you if you knew why you were being interviewed, and
you said to them it's because you's didn't do your
job properly. Is that your perception of this?

Speaker 8 (40:53):
Most probably?

Speaker 1 (40:54):
Yes?

Speaker 7 (40:55):
What's your understanding if police had done in your words,
what do you think they would have found?

Speaker 8 (41:00):
Well, it wouldn't have to carry on like this for
many years and make me, you know, try not to.
How can I move on until the shit disordered? You know,
it's their fault, really, it's not mine. I haven't done
nothing wrong.

Speaker 7 (41:15):
Just to be clear, you weren't in the room when
the gunshot was fired that ended Amy's life.

Speaker 8 (41:23):
No, I was not in the room.

Speaker 7 (41:25):
And when you spoke to police, is everything you said truthful?

Speaker 8 (41:30):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (41:31):
Miss Tyler refers to a message Amy sent to Simmons
on the twenty fifth of June twenty fourteen. The night
before she died. Amy had gone to the cinema with
Rachel that night to watch twenty two Jump Street.

Speaker 7 (41:45):
I want this to work this time, and I mean it.
I know I've said it so many times, but this
time it's going to be my aim to my girl
and my girls.

Speaker 6 (41:55):
I want my family to stay together. I mean that.
I'm going to give it my all to make it work.
But it's all just words like you say. So it's
up to you, babe. I'm over being a no hoper
and I need change to save me and what I love,
which is my little family. I just want to be happy.
So we'll stand by you with whatever decision you make.

(42:17):
Love you, my friend's going to die any second. Love
you night.

Speaker 7 (42:22):
Did you ever get that message?

Speaker 8 (42:24):
Not that I can remember.

Speaker 1 (42:26):
No, that message was sent the night Gareth and Rachel
were staying over. Well, David says he can't remember it.
He certainly doesn't seem surprised by its contents.

Speaker 7 (42:38):
What's she talking about when she says she's over being
a no hoper? What is she wanting to change?

Speaker 8 (42:44):
Well, it definitely wasn't me to change, you know. I
don't everything too for that family, for them. I don't
know whether she was on drugs or not. That's why
I wanted to know if there was any illicit drugs
in her system.

Speaker 7 (42:59):
We've done forensic testing. There were no illicit drugs in
her system when she died.

Speaker 8 (43:04):
Yes, what about my medication?

Speaker 7 (43:07):
There was anti depression medication in her systems SI talipram
because she was prescribed to her. Yes, why do you
ask that? What are your concerns about that?

Speaker 8 (43:17):
A couple of days before I checked my tablets and
I was low on them. I said to her, look,
I need to go get my script done. I don't
remember that it ran out that quick. And she said
she'd been taken them.

Speaker 7 (43:29):
Taking your medication. Yes, I've asked you a lot of
questions today. Is there anything else that you know about
Amy's death that you think could assist the coroner to
make the findings that she has to make.

Speaker 8 (43:42):
I don't think I can help her. I don't know.
I just want it to be over.

Speaker 7 (43:46):
Thank you, mister Simmons. I have no further questions.

Speaker 1 (43:50):
Deputy State Coroner Sarah Linton then says this.

Speaker 10 (43:54):
Mister Simmons, I'm the coroner. Just before I pass you
over to some lawyers. There's lawyers for the family, lawyers
for the police, who might ask you some questions. I
just wanted to ask you one thing, Miss Tyler, hasn't
necessarily covered in full for my benefit. You keep saying
was Amy on drugs? And we've clarified that she didn't
have any drugs in her system? Were you using drugs

(44:15):
around the time yourself illicit drugs?

Speaker 8 (44:17):
I don't think so.

Speaker 9 (44:19):
No.

Speaker 10 (44:19):
Gareth has given some evidence that the two of you
did take drugs together.

Speaker 8 (44:23):
Yes, but not at that specific time.

Speaker 10 (44:25):
So you used illicit drugs prior to Amy's death with Gareth, yes, yes, right,
and he says you hadn't taken drugs that day or
he certainly hadn't and he didn't recall doing it with you.
Had you taken any drugs that day?

Speaker 8 (44:38):
No?

Speaker 10 (44:39):
No, all right, but you say you had a beer
or two. Yes, but you don't recall being intoxicated on
the day.

Speaker 8 (44:45):
No.

Speaker 10 (44:45):
When the police picked you up the next night to
take you in for interviewing, had you been drinking then, yes,
you had to kind of sober up before you could
be interviewed. Do you remember that.

Speaker 8 (44:54):
Yes? Yes.

Speaker 5 (45:07):
For those of you who listened to the inquest into
the disappearance of Marion Barter from the Lady Vanish's podcast.
You'll notice how differently David Simmons was treated in this
inquest compared to Rick Blum. The manner and approach of
counsel assisting Adam Casselton and New South Wales Coroner Teresa
O'Sullivan was sorely missed in Amy's inquest. Like the detectives

(45:38):
at the start of this case, Deputy State Coroner Sarah
Linton seems to be in a hurry at one stage,
reprimanding council assisting the family Peter Ward for taking too
much time pursuing a line of questioning designed to show
the lack of credibility of Josh Brydon, saying this wasn't
the right jurisdiction for that. Yes, it's not a criminal trial,

(46:00):
but surely the responsibility of an inquest is to still
realize the truth, also asking leading questions. By this, I
mean providing Simmons the answers in her questions.

Speaker 1 (46:17):
Ol I totally agree David Simmons is being treated as
a victim. This inquest was supposed to explore three possibilities
that led to her death suicide, accident or homicide. Accept
it seems they were only focused on suicide for example,

(46:38):
the last message Amy sent to David, I want this
to work this time, and I mean it. They honed
straight in on the line about her no longer wanting
to be a no hoper, not the line where she's
basically giving him an ultimatum. It's up to you. What
she's saying here is he has to step up, and

(47:00):
if he doesn't, she's out of there. Obviously she's hoping
he will. But in that conversation to her mum just
before she died, when she's recovered from Simmons letting her
down and violently assaulting her yet again, there's a steely
determination that she's ready to move forward with her plan

(47:22):
for a new life without him.

Speaker 6 (47:24):
I just want to be happy.

Speaker 1 (47:27):
It's very clear that this time she's leaving for good.

Speaker 5 (47:34):
Well available evidence backs that up. Yes, they always argued
over his excessive drinking, but David said to Amy was
going off more than usual. She was going off because
of the message she sent in the night before. It
wasn't about the wood buyer or the lack of communication.
They were provocations, but the real issue was that Amy

(47:55):
knew he had chosen his drinking and other bad habits
over her and their fan Emily he didn't love her
enough to change, and she had been young enough to
think he could change. There are varying descriptions of what
Amy did to provoke David, including throwing a beer bottle
and mirror at him, as well as head butting him

(48:17):
in the mouth, causing his lip to split. David initially
denies the split lip, but later says he did respond
to Amy being pretty violent by grabbing her wrists and
forcing her to the ground. In his evidence, Gareth describes
it as a headlock and says he sort of choked
her and it's not the first time people claimed to

(48:40):
see him being violent towards Amy. Natasha says she saw
it happen too, when Amy was nine months pregnant, and
Erin was sent to photo of bruises around her neck
from when it happened another time. This is how their
heated discussion went, according to what David says at the inquest.

Speaker 8 (49:00):
What's wrong? What the hell is going on? Why are
you doing this?

Speaker 6 (49:03):
I'm leaving you.

Speaker 8 (49:04):
I'm leaving you well, all right, whatever, Well, you're not
driving anywhere like this with the kids in the car.
The kids can stay here the night and you can
come back and see him tomorrow.

Speaker 4 (49:13):
No, I'm taking the kids.

Speaker 8 (49:14):
Well, go in the room, pack your stuff up or whatever,
and I'll pack the car up and put the kids
in there and you can go and calm down.

Speaker 4 (49:23):
Yes, all right.

Speaker 1 (49:25):
So, at some stage during their fight, Simmons says, Amy
flips the lizard tank in the shed in response to
him telling her she wasn't driving anywhere. Price says he
sees Amy leaving the shed and entering the house with
Simmo trailing behind, who says something to her.

Speaker 8 (49:46):
Like fuck off to your mother's.

Speaker 1 (49:47):
Then, while Amy's packing, Simmons says he speaks to Amy
through the bedroom door, asking her to calm down before driving,
before returning to the car where Price and the children are.
So he was in that house alone with her. The

(50:09):
Deputy State Coroner even acknowledges it in her findings.

Speaker 10 (50:15):
Gareth did give evidence that David shot a parrot with
a twenty two rifle, which was later found in the bedroom,
and he conceded David may have put it away there,
but Gareth was clear in his evidence that David was
near him outside at the time he heard the thud,
and then followed David to the house and opened the
door for him to enter.

Speaker 1 (50:34):
Now, there seems to be a bit of confusion over
this because in at least one of the police statements
it has Simmons' twenty two rifle being found in the
back of his ute. However, in the coroner's findings, four
of five firearms and ammunition were seized from the bedroom

(50:55):
Amy was founding, excluding a Magnum crossbow recovered from the shed.
There's specific mention of a high powered rifle located in
the mirrored wardrobe. That high powered rifle is Simmons three
to eight rifle bolt repeater fire five RUGA, which according

(51:16):
to police documents, is the only one fitted with a
telescopic sight. And that's the gun Naa describes she saw
Simmons return to the room with. Now, Naya was very specific,
she says, it was, and I'm quoting from documents here,

(51:37):
black with a scope he can see through. She told
the specialist child interviewer just a couple of days after
her mum's death that it was really loud.

Speaker 4 (51:51):
Did daddy shoot at it one time or lots of times?

Speaker 3 (51:55):
Six?

Speaker 4 (51:57):
So he shot at it all right? Said that daddy
put it away in the mirror cupboard and How did
you see Daddy put it away in the mirror cupboard?

Speaker 3 (52:06):
Because I saw the window.

Speaker 4 (52:08):
Okay, tell me what could you see through the window?

Speaker 6 (52:12):
Dad?

Speaker 4 (52:13):
Okay? What could you see Dad doing.

Speaker 3 (52:15):
Putting the gun away in the mirror cupboard?

Speaker 4 (52:18):
And what else could you see?

Speaker 3 (52:21):
Nothing else? Just mum okay, trying to go to sleep.

Speaker 4 (52:26):
You could see Mom trying to go to sleep.

Speaker 3 (52:28):
What was she doing trying to go to sleep?

Speaker 4 (52:32):
Okay? What do you mean like she was trying.

Speaker 3 (52:35):
To go to sleep in her bed? When Tad wakes
are up? She can drive us.

Speaker 1 (52:45):
Now, just a REMINDERR on this. Maya's evidence is inadmissible
because she was only six years old at the time.
But if what she says is true, Simmons did go
back into the room, which makes sense because the firearm
that Naa describes was found in the wardrobe. Now going

(53:09):
back to this thud, of which the assumption has always
been that it was the sound of Amy shooting herself
with a four to ten. Now, for starters, it's a
sound that only Simmons and Price here, so we only
have their word it ever happened, And even if it
did occur, there are plenty of things that could make

(53:30):
a thud. Surely a fourteen going off would sound more
like a blast or a crack than a thud. You'll
hear what the shooting of a four ten buoyito shotgun
sounds like in an upcoming episode, and that'll give you
the chance to make up your own mind. Then, of

(53:54):
course there's the crime scene experts who both rule out suicide,
saying the evidence is highly consistent with her being shot.
So there's the puzzle. How is the testimony of Simmons,
both father and son, Price and Brighton even given more

(54:18):
weight than the independent, unbiased experts.

Speaker 5 (54:25):
The only person who does treat David Simmons as a
suspect during the proceedings is counsel assisting the family, Peter Ward.
Here he questions David Simmons about the rubbish bins, specifically
asking if police searched them that.

Speaker 8 (54:39):
Night, wouldn't have a clue.

Speaker 2 (54:42):
Now, you saw Gareth go out and put something in
the bins? Do you remember that?

Speaker 3 (54:45):
No?

Speaker 2 (54:46):
Can you remember Gareth walking down the driveway to put
stuff in the bins?

Speaker 8 (54:49):
I don't think so. I can't remember well when.

Speaker 2 (54:52):
Miss Tyler first asked you about that. You seem to
have a bit of a smirk on your face, as
if you were thinking something about the bins?

Speaker 8 (54:59):
Was is there any right the right of the bloody
driveway right at the gate? That's I thought, and Nea
asked when they mentioned na, it made me feel good.

Speaker 2 (55:10):
What So it wasn't because there was something put in
those bins that you were glad the police didn't find.

Speaker 8 (55:16):
No, I don't know what you're on about.

Speaker 1 (55:18):
Now.

Speaker 2 (55:18):
I want to ask you a couple of more questions
about the incident Natasha Selsa described. So, that was the
night before Tay was born. You came home and you
had been drinking and you had a couple of tokes
of iyes. Do you remember that?

Speaker 8 (55:31):
Where was where was Amy in that? At the hospital,
at the unit in Kelmscott the night before Tay was born. Yes,
we were in the hospital for two days, nearly she
was in labor, in and out of labor.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
Did you take her to the hospital.

Speaker 8 (55:44):
I don't know. I can't remember. We had the cars impounded,
so someone had to take us, so we walked.

Speaker 2 (55:50):
She walked to hospital, nine months pregnant and in labor.

Speaker 8 (55:54):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (55:54):
Isn't it the case that Natasha Celsa took her to
the hospital.

Speaker 8 (55:58):
I don't know. I can't remember.

Speaker 2 (56:00):
Because you were still out of it, asleep from the
night before. Pardon you were still out of it from
the night before, weren't you.

Speaker 8 (56:06):
Well, if you're telling me this story, why are you
asking all these questions?

Speaker 10 (56:10):
Just answer the questions the best that you can, recall,
mister Simmons, and it'll go a lot quicker.

Speaker 8 (56:14):
Not that I remember.

Speaker 2 (56:15):
No, that night when you got home and you had
an argument with Amy, you grabbed her around the throw, didn't.

Speaker 8 (56:21):
You, No, sir, I can't remember.

Speaker 5 (56:23):
At this point, David Simmons gets agitated and says he
should have brought a lawyer. This prompts a Deputy State
Coronet to say.

Speaker 10 (56:31):
You do have a right to say you don't want
to answer questions on the grounds you might incriminate yourself.
You haven't done this so far. I have the accounts
you've given, and the account you've given today is consistent
with that with the police, and that you had a
right to have a lawyer and not give to talk
to the police. Is that right back in the day, yes,
all right, and even today if there's a question that

(56:52):
you think might incriminate you, you've got the right to
say that so far, everything you've said doesn't really point
in that direction. But of course you have the right
to say that, and we can have a discussion about it.

Speaker 7 (57:03):
If it gets to there.

Speaker 10 (57:04):
But the questions mister Ward's asking you, now, I wouldn't
think would necessarily incriminate you in a particular way. But
you've always got that at the back of your mind,
and mister Ward's just going to keep asking questions in
a reasonable way. If you don't understand them, just let
him know. He will explain it and we'll all be
able to keep on going. And you know, once we
get through this, you'll be able to finish your evidence

(57:25):
and go okay.

Speaker 2 (57:26):
So just yes, you told police you'd never hit Amy.
That's not true, is it.

Speaker 8 (57:31):
I've never hit Amy. No.

Speaker 5 (57:33):
Mister Ward changes tack and instead asks about the car
accident where he was driving and Amy sustained serious injuries
and was forced to wear a halo.

Speaker 2 (57:42):
So she had the brace on for a few months.
Even after she got it off, she had a soft
brace on her neck for a while, didn't she, Yes,
she got pain in it for How long did that
last for quite a while, yes, pretty much. So even
up to her death, she was still sometimes having problems
with her neck.

Speaker 8 (57:58):
Yes, I think so. Well, it just wasn't comfortable, you know,
she just wasn't comfortable with it.

Speaker 2 (58:05):
Did it affect how she could move her head?

Speaker 8 (58:07):
Yes. After she had the accident, she used to move
a lot more like that than moving her neck.

Speaker 5 (58:14):
David Simmons is indicating moving from the waist up because
Amy was unable to move just her neck, which is
what she would have had to have done had she
shot herself in the right temple. According to the trajectory,
blood spatter and the gunshot wound.

Speaker 8 (58:28):
She used to move with the top half of her.

Speaker 2 (58:29):
Chest, so her neck was pretty stiff. It was the
whole shoulders in everything moving.

Speaker 8 (58:34):
Yes.

Speaker 5 (58:34):
Peter Ward outlines to David the chain of events leading
to Amy's debth and what he thinks could have occurred.

Speaker 2 (58:40):
You went back into the house. The kids are sitting
in the cart, Gareth is outside or he's in the
garage picking up the reptile tank. Yes, you've gone back in.
You've gone to the bedroom door. You've tried to talk
to Amy through the door. You're with me so far. Yes, okay.
Now what you told please then, is that you're trying
to open the door and that she physically blocked it.

(59:00):
Was that true?

Speaker 8 (59:01):
I can't remember.

Speaker 2 (59:03):
But you told police that two days after this happened.
Do you think you might have been telling the truth there?

Speaker 1 (59:08):
Well?

Speaker 8 (59:09):
I can't remember exactly now, so whatever I said then
would have been close. Yes, right.

Speaker 2 (59:15):
You told police that you thought she had put her
foot behind the door to block it. Do you remember that?

Speaker 8 (59:21):
No.

Speaker 2 (59:21):
I'm going to tell you what I think happened from
that point, and I want you to tell me what
your response to that is. You didn't like her pushing
that door shut as you were trying to open it.
You then pushed your way into the room and Amy
was stuck behind the door. She was hiding behind the door.
Did that happen?

Speaker 8 (59:38):
No.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
After you entered the room, you picked up the buoyte rifle.
You were arguing with her, and you pointed the rifle
at her. Did that happen?

Speaker 8 (59:46):
No?

Speaker 2 (59:46):
She was hiding behind the door and you held the
gun against her head. Did that happen? No? Amy tried
to fend it off. She grabbed hold of the barrel
with her left hand. Did that happen?

Speaker 8 (59:56):
No?

Speaker 2 (59:56):
And the gun went off and you just dropped the
gun in her lap. Did that happened?

Speaker 8 (01:00:00):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:00:01):
She was sitting on the ground and you were holding
the gun and I'm just going to demonstrate you were
holding the gun down by your side in your right hand.
Did that happen No? And the gun went off and
you just dropped the gun in her lap. Did that happen?

Speaker 8 (01:00:14):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
And then you ran outside and that was when Gareth
saw you, saying oh fuck, oh fuck, oh fuck. Do
you remember running out and saying that?

Speaker 8 (01:00:22):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
You and Gareth then decided to tell people that she
shot herself. Isn't that right?

Speaker 8 (01:00:26):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
Gareth has given some evidence that you said the words
why would she do that? Do you remember saying those words?

Speaker 8 (01:00:32):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:00:33):
I suggest to you you did say that, but you
weren't referring to her shooting herself. You were referring to
her locking you out and making you angry again.

Speaker 7 (01:00:41):
I don't know what you're trying to get at, but
you're wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
You were also referring to her being gutless after that.
You weren't referring to her shooting herself. You were referring
to her cowering behind the door.

Speaker 8 (01:00:51):
Weren't she I'm not sure where you're trying to go
with this, mate, But you're way off track.

Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
Do you deny that you were holding the gun when
Amy suffered the shotgun wound?

Speaker 8 (01:00:58):
Can you ask that again?

Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
You deny that you were holding the gun when Amy
suffered the shotgun wounds?

Speaker 8 (01:01:04):
I was not holding the gun. No, I was outside
when I heard the noise, and when I went inside
she was dead.

Speaker 6 (01:01:10):
See.

Speaker 2 (01:01:10):
I said at the outset of these questions that I
thought that almost everything you said about what happened on
that day was true. I want to suggest this to you.
Everything you said about what happened on that day was true,
except for those questions we've just gone through about you
pushing your way into the room, picking up the gun
and holding it against her head when it went off

(01:01:31):
because you were upset that she had shut the door
when you tried to open it. Isn't that the case? No,
So one of the reasons why the police believed you
is because you were telling the truth almost about everything.
There's only one thing that you and Gareth had to
change that day in your stories, which was that you
had to say that you were outside with him when

(01:01:52):
the noise occurred, so therefore she must have shot herself.

Speaker 10 (01:01:56):
Well, I don't know if he can answer why police
believed him. It's a matter for mission.

Speaker 8 (01:02:00):
Really, You've got to look at the evidence, don't you, mate,
and all the other stuff. What you're trying to tell
me is something that didn't happen. So I'm not lying
and I'm not holding anything back. I know I've lost
the best person in my whole life, and now I
have to live with it and listen to people like
you and whoever is trying to blame me for it
because they can't have closure on themselves because they don't

(01:02:24):
realize that, well, look in their own garden. It has
nothing to do with them, either did it or me?
Whose fault was it? The upbringing she had was it?
Was it that she didn't want to go to our mums,
that she didn't have anywhere to go. I offered the money,
I gave her every opportunity she ever wanted, that girl,

(01:02:46):
And then you're trying to say to me that I
tried to get in the door and got upset. Mate.
I've tried to move on with my life for the
last six seven years and I have to put up
with this. I don't get to see my kids. I
didn't even get to go to the funeral. Now, I
don't know how I'm supposed to answer your questions when

(01:03:07):
you're trying to blame me for something I never done.

Speaker 10 (01:03:10):
Mister Ward, do you have any more questions?

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
I have no further questions Your honor.

Speaker 5 (01:03:14):
Her honor then checks with counsel assisting WA police, who
astonishingly or perhaps not, indicates there are no questions for
David Simmons.

Speaker 10 (01:03:24):
All right, Thank you very much, David. I've heard what
you've had to say. I'm the coroner, so I'm the
one listening to your evidence and all the other evidence
and bearing that in mind. Just to go back then,
my understanding of what you're telling me is that you
and Gareth had nothing to do with Amy being shot
in the head that day. Is that right?

Speaker 8 (01:03:41):
That's right?

Speaker 10 (01:03:42):
And you were both standing outside the car and you
heard a sound and you went into the house and
found Amy behind the door with the shotgun injury. Is
that right?

Speaker 1 (01:03:50):
Yes, that's correct, And that's pretty much it. There are
just a few minor clarifications of information that has already
been provided before, some housekeeping on what happens next, and
a big thank you to David Simmons for turning up
and then it's over.

Speaker 3 (01:04:14):
I love Loss and she loves me and mummy.

Speaker 5 (01:04:24):
And there's still more to go through in relation to

(01:04:46):
what David Simmons has to say compared to other witnesses
and experts, which will continue with in the next episode.
In the meantime, we managed to catch up with him
recently outside Perth Magistrate's Court, where he's facing four new
char after allegedly assaulting a police officer. You'll recall he's
already served nine months for assaulting Larry Blandford. When David

(01:05:10):
first sees Liam and the TV crew, he gives him
the finger. Simmons tries to enter, but the security guard
won't let him in yet.

Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
Hey you go, mate, Liam, I just want to have
a chat. Are you David's lawyer? No?

Speaker 9 (01:05:25):
No, no, Oh, just a friend Okay. We wanted to
see if we canna have a chat with you. What
it means about Amy?

Speaker 1 (01:05:35):
Everybody?

Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:05:39):
Why is that? It's my life not yours? It's her
life as well. Yeah, well we'll not telling him.

Speaker 9 (01:05:47):
Really, what have you got to hide?

Speaker 1 (01:05:53):
Are you trying to hide something? Are you hoping that
it gets resolved or are you happy with the way
it is? We're not talking you're fucking death. No, I'm
not deaf. Well then I said, I don't want to
talk to here. I like it and I don't want
to talk here. Well, it was her life as well, David,
what if you all got to do with you? Well,

(01:06:13):
I'd like to find the truth in the interests of
her family. Sorry, David. Well, it's not as easy as that,
is it? Eight years? What does it matter? What does

(01:06:33):
it matter? What do you mean?

Speaker 9 (01:06:35):
What does it matter? Come on, you don't want to
talk about it at all. That's pretty pathetic, isn't it.

Speaker 5 (01:06:42):
I attended the court session with David Simmons, where I
learned the older lady with him is named Debbie, who
used to work as an aboriginal liaison at the Attorney
General's Department. Simmons mother, Evelyn, is Aboriginal. Despite arriving there
before anyone else, his matter is one of the last
to be heard before lunch. During the proceedings, he pleads

(01:07:04):
not guilty to assault a public officer and obstructing public officers,
but guilty to breach a bail undertaking and disorderly behavior
in public. The matter is adjourned for hearing at the
end of October. We share a lift down to the
ground floor, where Simmons is jubilant.

Speaker 8 (01:07:22):
That's good, he.

Speaker 5 (01:07:23):
Says, in relation to the case being adjourned for three months.
While out, he says to Debbie, referring to jail by
that he means he'll be a while out of prison now,
as his case is adjourned until October. He now makes
mention of the camera crew waiting for him outside court.

Speaker 8 (01:07:40):
Just got to deal with the fuck wits at the
front door.

Speaker 5 (01:07:42):
Remember he's already served nine months in jail for assaulting
Larry Blamford, who was still working for Wa Police at
the time. Then he looks at me and says early
knockoff and grins. I reply that I still have a
lot to do. When Simmons exits at court, he's ready
for Liam David, as is Debbie.

Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
How'd you go? She's us. Could you talk to us
just a little bit please about Amy? No, no, no, no, no,
don't provoke David. Don't I'm not provoking. You are face.
I'm not in his face, David. Can you tell us
where the gun was when you found Amy?

Speaker 5 (01:08:21):
Demie grabs his arm and pulls him away.

Speaker 1 (01:08:24):
Can you tell us what the position of the gun
was Could you excuse us?

Speaker 5 (01:08:28):
At this point, Liam is only walking beside Debbie and
David is on her other side.

Speaker 1 (01:08:32):
Can you tell us how you got out of that bedroom? David?
Why won't you talk to us about it? David? Do
you think any of your friends will use that million
dollar reward? Do you think they have other information? Are
you his mother?

Speaker 2 (01:08:51):
Yep?

Speaker 5 (01:08:51):
She isn't, though, as mentioned, David's real mum is called Evelyn.

Speaker 1 (01:08:55):
Would you like this soft or when you're out of
his face? I'm not in his face. I'm just asking
questions very respectfully.

Speaker 5 (01:09:02):
Again, this is true. Liam is still walking beside Debbie
and David is on her other side.

Speaker 1 (01:09:09):
Talk to stop, well, David, won't you just you have
no desire to work this out at all.

Speaker 2 (01:09:20):
You have nothing to get better to do.

Speaker 1 (01:09:22):
Than find the truth if you wouldn't be if the
police did their job properly? Excuse us us? Why do
you say that? Why do you say that? David?

Speaker 5 (01:09:34):
Debbie makes a flicking motion like she's throwing out some rubbish.

Speaker 1 (01:09:38):
David, Why God, do you think you think the police
will let you down? Do you well? Is that what
you think?

Speaker 5 (01:09:47):
David just stands there with his hands on his hips,
eyes straight ahead. He's not looking at Liam, He's not
looking at anything at all. He looks as though he's
contemplating something. Then he turns, opens the passenger door and
gets him.

Speaker 1 (01:10:02):
Surely you want to get to the bottom of this.

Speaker 5 (01:10:03):
Debbie is still there next to him, closing his door.
She looks relieved and then waves her hand as if
to dismiss Liam.

Speaker 1 (01:10:12):
Well, surely you do too, for his sake, don't you, David.
Wouldn't you think it's worthwhile to work us out. Next episode,

(01:10:33):
we hear from Amy's former boss, who saw Amy the
night before she died.

Speaker 11 (01:10:38):
It was just absolute shock to be told that she'd
committed suicide. I mean, no one talks about their plans
for the rest of the week and the next day
to then go and do that.

Speaker 1 (01:10:51):
And what Amy's daughters told the coroner at the inquest.

Speaker 3 (01:10:55):
So he waited in the car for a month and
she never came back out of the house. So, Liser
your c.

Speaker 11 (01:11:13):
So deretion.

Speaker 3 (01:11:18):
We both know the nasty un Jill mek.

Speaker 1 (01:11:27):
Hunt, if you knew Amy and have information, any information
about her death, we'd love to hear from you. Just
email us at the truth about Amy at seven dot

(01:11:49):
com dot a U that's s E V e N
The Truth about Amy at seven dot com dot au,
or visit our website sevenews dot com dot au forward
slash the Truth about Amy. You can also send us
an anonymous tip at www dot the Truth about Amy

(01:12:13):
dot com. If you're on Facebook or Instagram, you can
follow us to see photos and updates relevant to the case,
but for legal reasons, unfortunately, you won't be able to
make any comments. And remember, if you like what you're hearing,

(01:12:34):
don't forget to subscribe. Please rate and review our series
because it really helps new listeners to find us. Presenter
and executive producer Alison Sandy, Presenter and investigative journalist Liam Bartlett,

(01:12:55):
Sound design Mark Wright, Assistant producer Cassie Woodward, Graphics Jason Blanford,
and special thanks to Tim Clark and Brian Seymour. This

(01:13:20):
is a seven News production.