REPETE: Damon Herriman and The Graduate

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Gooday, Pete, hell ay you here, Welcome to you. Ain't
seen Nothing yet? The movie podcast where our chat to
a movie lover about a classic or beloved movie they
haven't quite got around to watching until now. And today's
guest actor legend Damon Harriman, all below.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
I want to stay here with you. Get the jobble?
Why hate snake shucked? Why fail?

Speaker 1 (00:43):
They could be? Haven't a right?

Speaker 3 (00:45):
So don't see nothing yet?

Speaker 1 (00:57):
Well? Well, well quite sim Lee. I don't think I
have recorded an episode with anyone that has this many
screen credits from TV to film. Damon Harriman has done
so much. He first appeared on our screens in nineteen

(01:20):
seventy six. And we're not talking about a guy who's eighty.
By the way, I'm forty nine. I think he's like
basically the same age. He might be a year or
two older than me. He first appeared in The Sullivans
in nineteen seventy six, and from then on he has
appeared in all the Ossie TV shows that we know,
and from Carson's Lord, the Flying Doctors, e Street, Brides

(01:43):
of Christ, or Saints Water, rat Stingers, you name it.
He's constantly working here and abroad. There's not one type
of role that he gravitates too. He can do it all.
Oh and the project I'm really looking forward to seeing
is later this year Better Man, the Robbie Williams bio pic,

(02:03):
which I've heard little perhaps details, but I think it's
going to be something extraordinary. It's not going to be
a normal biopic. I don't know who Damon's He won't
tell me who he's playing in. But he's got that.
He's got his TV series of Kevin Bacon. He's filming
in Atlanta at the moment. He's just wrapped that up.
He's always working. A body love him. He's funny, he's generous,

(02:25):
he's joyful. I'm stoked to be hanging with Damon Harriman today.

Speaker 4 (02:33):
I'm Damon Herriman. My three favorite films are Good Fellas Well.
What's really funny is the fucking mag jab Away and
Sea Caucus.

Speaker 3 (02:40):
I'm in the middle, little fucking weed, slaying down. He
comes over, What are you doing?

Speaker 5 (02:43):
I'm wrestling here?

Speaker 4 (02:45):
You're restling? Got a fucking beach in a park.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
I know I'm resting.

Speaker 4 (02:49):
I'm wrestling.

Speaker 6 (02:50):
They pulled me in.

Speaker 4 (02:50):
It's taking all kinds of questions you know list and
he says, oh, so, what are you gonna tell us?

Speaker 2 (02:54):
Tough guys?

Speaker 4 (02:55):
My usual zero nothing.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
This is final tap play.

Speaker 6 (02:59):
I mean you actually play all these or I played
them and you cherished him. This is at the top
of the heat right here. There's no question about it.

Speaker 3 (03:07):
Look at this, and you see.

Speaker 7 (03:09):
I didn't come here just as an administrator, doctor Brewster.
I came to this hospital to settle an old score.
What's I don't know that My father was a brilliant man.
He built this hospital. But you don't know is that
to his family? He was a merciful tyrant.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
But until today I had never seen the graduate. May
I ask you a question?

Speaker 7 (03:36):
What do you think of me?

Speaker 6 (03:38):
What do you mean?

Speaker 2 (03:39):
You've known me nearly all your life. You must have
formed some opinion of me.

Speaker 3 (03:44):
Well, I always thought that you were a very nice person.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
Did you know I was an alcoholic?

Speaker 4 (03:54):
What did you know that?

Speaker 7 (03:59):
Okay, I should be going sit down, Benjamin, missus Robinson,
if you don't mind my saying so, this conversation is
getting a little strange.

Speaker 6 (04:07):
Now. I'm sure that mister Robinson will be here any
minute now.

Speaker 4 (04:09):
What my husband will be back quite late you should
be gone for several hours.

Speaker 5 (04:16):
Oh my god, pid Oh no, Missus Robinson, Oh no,
what's wrong?

Speaker 6 (04:22):
Missus Robson? Didn't I mean you didn't expect what I mean,
you didn't really think I do something like that?

Speaker 2 (04:29):
Like, what what do you think?

Speaker 8 (04:31):
Well?

Speaker 2 (04:31):
I don't know. For God's sake, Missus Robinson, here we are.

Speaker 6 (04:37):
You got me into your house, you give me a drink,
you put on music. Now you start opening up your
personal life to me and tell me your husband won't
be home for hours. So, Missus Robinson, you're trying to
seduce me, aren't you.

Speaker 1 (04:52):
It's nineteen sixty seven and Benjamin Braddock Dustin Hoffman in
his film debut, has just graduated from college. He has
his home future in front of him, but he just
can't quite see it yet. Benjamin, in his own words,
feels disturbed about things at his graduation party, thrown by
his parents with their friends. Ben is confronted in his

(05:15):
bedroom by Missus Robinson, the excellent excellent Anne Bancroft, who
has the graduate firmly in her sights. Her seduction attempts
are fully realized after she convinces Ben to drive her
home then walk her into her house, then have a drink,
then fetch her purse. Yes, Missus Robinson knows how to
catch her prey. The indecent proposal, if you will, is

(05:38):
taken up by Ben as he gives in to the
charms and skills of the older woman in reality, and
Bancroft is less than six years older than Dustin Hoffman.
But when he begins falling for Missus Robinson's daughter, Elaine
Katherine Ross, things get murky for the anxiety ridden young man.
Mike nichols second film, the highest grossing film of nineteen

(05:59):
six seven, nominated for seven Oscars, winning one for Mike
Nichol's masterful direction, with the familiar sounds of Simon and
Garfunkel playing throughout the Graduate, is considered an American classic.
Damon Herriman, did you ever consider getting into plastics?

Speaker 2 (06:21):
I did it.

Speaker 4 (06:21):
I did it after watching this film. I don't know
what I was thinking, because obviously they are the way
of the future. As that character says, it.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
Is actually funny. Apparently plastics kind of exploded not long
after this film, and people have kind of given it
some kind of you know, pat in the back, maybe.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
Helping credit for the for the rise of plastics.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
That's that's absolutely right, mate. Thank you so much for
joining us. You are always busy working on film and TV.
You're joining us from la You just finished wrapping up
a series of The Great Kevin Bake, and you've shot
something film here in Melbourne, which sounds extraordinarily exciting. Get

(07:03):
you're in the Bike Riders at the moment. We got
so much coming up, but I want to I want
to talk about why you hadn't seen The Graduate because
I think of you as a student of cinema. You know,
you've been, You've been your whole life has been in
showbiz for one of a better term, and I believe

(07:25):
you're a big Dustin Hoffman fan. I think we've spoken
about that. Why has this one been left off? Yeah?
So why has this one been left up the list?

Speaker 2 (07:33):
I have no good excuse.

Speaker 4 (07:35):
You know, when I think about my favorite performances by
male actors in movies, you know, Tutsi, Kramer Versus Kramer, rain.

Speaker 2 (07:43):
Man to name but three.

Speaker 4 (07:47):
I don't know how I never saw The Graduate because
you know, especially in my my twenties. And we could
talk about this today too, but just I was really
up on this film and how the people. Younger people
who watched this film became obsessed with it in a
way that older people at the time didn't. And I remember,

(08:10):
not that I was in my twenties and the sixties,
but I was in my twenties and the nineties, and
it was a It was a big movie amongst my friends.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
Like it was.

Speaker 4 (08:19):
It was a very popular movie amongst my friends. I
don't know how I missed it, honestly, I guess I
just never got around to it. It wasn't on Telly,
and I never never hired the DVD.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
I don't know. And what do you know about it?

Speaker 8 (08:33):
Did you?

Speaker 1 (08:36):
The music was the music that you know? Obviously?

Speaker 8 (08:38):
It?

Speaker 1 (08:38):
Dustin Hoffman was the music in part.

Speaker 2 (08:39):
Definitely, yeah, one hundred percent.

Speaker 4 (08:42):
I definitely knew about the Simon and Garfuncle music, big
Simony Garfuncle fans, so I knew that was part of
the film. I knew it was a Mike Nichols film,
and I'd seen and loved other films of his. I
knew the kind of classic quotes, so that you know,
Missus Robinson and you're trying to seduce me. And actually

(09:02):
watching the film was interesting seeing that there are those
quotes from I think, isn't it Madonna's vogues that has
her saying, I'm not trying to seduce you?

Speaker 2 (09:11):
Is it a vogue?

Speaker 1 (09:12):
I think you're right, But this is a massively parodied movie.
It's right up there. I mean, I think that seems
to the multiple episodes.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
But for some reason, my.

Speaker 4 (09:25):
Assumption had always been, until I saw the film, the
Dustin Hoffman's character was already dating Missus Robinson's daughter from
the beginning of the film. I don't know if that's
just how it had presented when I'd ever seen clips
of it, but I had thought and perhaps the kind
of seduction of the of the mum. I had assumed

(09:45):
that he was being seduced by the mother of his girlfriend.
And of course, when you see the movie, his relationship
with her doesn't come too much later.

Speaker 1 (09:53):
Yeah, yeah, let's let's come back to the graduates. I
cannot wait to chat to you about I had seen
it a couple of times, but not for a while.
I enjoyed watching it again. But let's talk about your
three favorite films. Great films. I've seen them all and
they very highly on my list too. Let's start with
Good Fellas, The late great ray Leonta of course, with

(10:13):
Joe Pesky and Robert de Niro. This is You can
just watched this over and over again and never get
sick of it.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah, you can.

Speaker 4 (10:21):
And I haven't seen it for a while, but I
did used to watch it over and over again. I
actually saw it at the movies.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
When it came out and was immediately blown away.

Speaker 4 (10:31):
And then it became one of those movies that you know,
as you do often in your twenties, when you get
obsessed with a particular film, you watch it over and
over again, and I certainly did that with this one.
I became obsessed with Joe Peshi. I didn't really know
his work prior to that. I know he'd done a
lot of stuff, and of course he's been in other
Scorsese movies, but this I thought his performance in that

(10:52):
film was mind blowingly good, one of very.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
Well deserved oscar for it.

Speaker 4 (10:58):
Yeah, and you know, kind of kind of crazy to
think back now that that film did not win Best
Picture or Best Directed that year.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
Beaten by Dancers with Wolves, Local Warves, And that's a
film that I also loved at the time.

Speaker 4 (11:11):
Although I don't think i've seen since and it's not
a film you really ever hear anyone speak about when
Goodfellas has constantly brought up.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
You know, it's funny, and you can't judge that in
the moment, can you. You can't judge, you know, how
this film is going to be remembered when you have basically,
you know, six months maybe to process something, maybe even
less time for Academy voters to put their votes in.
And I love Danzer with Wolves as well, and I
have watched it again and I really admire you know,

(11:39):
I was very much into Let's I'm happy to spend
three hours in the cinema at that time. Loved that.
Was that time there were so many epics around. There
was a Brave Heart was you know, around the same time,
and you know, and I was all in on those
movies and was a big Untouchables fan, so Kevin Costin
was in my hitting zone. It was very excited for it.
Where it came out, I kind of think about it.

(12:01):
I can't imagine my fifteen year old being excited about
Dances with Wolves, like if it came out now, is
there a ninety second version of Dancing Wolves that we
can put on TikTok I'm not sure if there is.

Speaker 2 (12:15):
And it's a funny one.

Speaker 4 (12:16):
It is, and it probably still does hold up as
a great film, but for some reason, it's not a
film people talk about watching over and over again, and
it's not a film that often comes up in people's
favorites as a reason.

Speaker 1 (12:27):
And it doesn't. It doesn't come down to running time either,
because the good good falancies is, you know, there's not
much change in three hours. I think like two and
a half hours. He fails to have a guess, right, yeah, yeah,
it's definitely long.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
I can't remember how long. It's definitely a long movie.

Speaker 1 (12:43):
It's so good and you're a Joe Pesh's so he's
such a unique actor. I mean, he's just so he's
so volatile in this. You know that the Seeds of
Spider is just the.

Speaker 4 (12:59):
Humor and the danger he brought, you know, at the
same time, you know, like everyone still kind of quotes
the funny funny how the restaurant's scene. I have a
feeling was largely improvised, but that you know, he's just
so incredibly watchable talk about having screen presence, but also
just incredibly good, Like.

Speaker 2 (13:21):
You know, you don't you don't know, you don't see
the acting.

Speaker 4 (13:23):
You just you absolutely believed he was that guy is
as little and you were terrified of him.

Speaker 1 (13:28):
Yeah, he's a little He's little Volcano's Napoleon and and
he is that when you when you look at your
you know, your peers and the actors who you love
working with or even just watching. Is it Is it
the ability to play like you said, humor and volatility
or or you know, comedy and drama so closely entwined

(13:50):
that makes some actors rise above others.

Speaker 2 (13:54):
I definitely, I definitely like that, you know.

Speaker 4 (13:56):
I mean, it's not like if someone can't do that
that I think any less of them more, I'm not
as impressed, But I think that there is a little
something extra about the actors who can do that. You know,
Philip sama Hoffman's another one that comes to mind. You
can do that, Meryl Street. You know, there are a
bunch who can do it. But yeah, in terms of
really really combining that thing of absolute frightening, real, you know, truthful,

(14:26):
fearful performance that you're actually laughing as well because of
the way he's done and there are so many scenes
in that movie where he is doing really macabre, violent things,
but he's doing it in a way that I'm sure
he knows is funny. It is funny, and I'm sure
he's making it funny, but he never is playing for laughs.

Speaker 2 (14:47):
He's not doing a gag. It's just something.

Speaker 4 (14:50):
About the way he's doing it actually makes me want
to see it again.

Speaker 1 (14:54):
He's so good speaking, and it's a.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
Shame we don't see more of him, you know, other
than the irishman. I didn't a matter of retirement to
the Irish one.

Speaker 6 (15:01):
I think.

Speaker 1 (15:01):
Yeah, and he I think he appeared in a sitcom
recently with Pete Davidson. Yeah, he did a TV series
and Joe PESHI I think was his godfather or uncle
or something. Is quite you know, he was funny, he
was funny and yeah, but I agree, it's a pity
we don't see a whole lot more of him. Let's

(15:24):
speaking of violence and humor. Put together Spinal Tap one
of the funniest films of all time. The violence, of course,
comes mainly through combusting drummers. But this was a moment
that's kind of changed cinema in a way. He kind of,
you know, to my mind, kind of brought the monumentary.
I know, Ricky Gervais or Christopher guests have kind of
credited spinal tap. Well, Christopher guess what was part of it.

(15:47):
But Ricky Gervais is credited this move, but you know,
bringing the monumentary format to him at least.

Speaker 4 (15:53):
Yeah, yeah, that's right. And I'm I'm pretty sure this
was pretty close to being the first micumentric. I think
there might be something before it that was considered to
be a mockumentary, but it's one of the very first,
and certainly one of the most famous, if not the
most famous mockumentary feature film. I stumbled across this film

(16:14):
on TV when it was in the middle of the
scene where he's showing his guitars, and I thought I
was watching a documentary about a rock band I'd never
heard of. It would have been when I was maybe
sixteen or something. And if this film was not famous,
I mean it probably was amongst bands and things, but
it had not reached the heights of fame that it

(16:35):
did a few years later. And I remember watching it
and then starting to laugh at this guitarist the way
he was talking, you know, because he was so earnest
and kind of talking in this episode way, and then
when I got up to these amps go up to eleven,
I was just so confused because I was laughing and
then going how how how can there be amps that

(16:57):
got to eleven? And also the that this guy thinks
that makes them one louder. I mean, it's so genius
and I can't remember how long hopefully not too long
before I realized I was watching a comedy. But then
I kind of became obsessed with it and I used
to watch this film. This is probably Spinal TAP's probably

(17:18):
one of the films I've watched the most in my life.
I haven't seen it for a good while, but I'm
incredibly excited that they've just shot a sequel.

Speaker 1 (17:25):
You know about this people, Yes, i'd forgotten about it, actually,
but yes, that is that is right, there's now so
you're excited and not nervous, you know, how do you
feel about it?

Speaker 4 (17:35):
I mean, I'm way more excited than nervous. Look, it
could go horribly wrong, but it's all the same three leads.
It's Rob Reiner directing and playing the documentary filmmaker again.
They've got people like Paul McCartney and Elton John and
get in like you know, special appearances it's probably not

(17:56):
going to be as good as the first one.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
How could it possibly? You know that that film was
just so perfect.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
But to live in that world with those characters for
you know, ninety minutes, I think is going to be
a joy. You know, the they did the DVD commentary,
it might it might have been now twenty years ago
or fifteen years ago, but I thought that was just
as funny as as as the film.

Speaker 8 (18:18):
It was.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
Those guys haven't stopped being funny. So I think that's
that's the the glimmer of hope that yeah, And I
think sometimes we've seen recently where sequels have been you know,
have come after a long time. Maybe Maverick is probably
the best example of not just rushing out with a sequel,
but having the right idea at the right time. I

(18:42):
just saw the Little.

Speaker 4 (18:43):
Juice coming up about after the original or absolutely it's
because actually left apparently I haven't watched it yet, but
it's not too bad. I hear on that FLI imagine
making a movie and going, you know what, in like
thirty years, we should have a sequel to this. It's
such an absurd amount of time. But then, of course,
once you get to that moment. It doesn't feel absurd,

(19:05):
it feels awesome, like everyone gets excited, Well usually you
get excited. I don't think, you know, there's certain classics
you don't necessarily want to have a sequel to.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
But Spinal Tap, I'm ready. I think they've laited long enough.

Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yeah, well they probably can't wait too much long ago.
They want Mick Jagger involved, and certainly they want Key
thre reaches or he will live forever. We do know that.
So that I love the way you watched it, Like
I wish I had a found spinal Tap accidentally and
even for a period of time thought I was watching
a documentary. I suspect if you would have told the

(19:38):
everyone involved that that's how you first watched Spinal Tap,
they would get a kick out of that. I think
that's almost a dream for them. I suspect.

Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah, well, that's how good the acting isn't it.

Speaker 4 (19:49):
You know? I mean that's the other thing I say.
It's one of my favorite films because I love it
from just an entertainment point of view, But the acting
is in it is exc with it, like the the.

Speaker 2 (20:02):
You know, Davidson Hubbins and Nigel Tufnel. When you see
them sitting there completely.

Speaker 4 (20:08):
Deadpan, answering questions as a rock band.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
It feels like a rock band interview.

Speaker 4 (20:11):
Like it feels like a.

Speaker 2 (20:13):
Hair metal rock band interview. You're not sort of doing
a sketch comedy version.

Speaker 4 (20:17):
They're doing it as if it was real, and which
makes the comedy work even better because they're saying such
ridiculous things. And if they'd said those ridiculous things in
and over the top, you know, sketch comedy kind of way,
it wouldn't be as funny. Like it's the fact that
he says, you know, this plays that beautiful piano piece

(20:39):
that's all kind of soft and lovely, and this is
what's this called.

Speaker 2 (20:43):
This piece is called lick my louve pump, and it's
are we allowed to say that on.

Speaker 1 (20:50):
Your Oh you can say whatever you like, man, Yeah, yeah,
the video podcast.

Speaker 4 (20:53):
But you know the fact that that comes out of
this beautiful melodic ballad, and he says it.

Speaker 1 (20:59):
In a way that is it would be so hard
not to You wonder how many takes they did, and
but you kind of feel like, I suspect not as
many as we may suspect. I think they they were committed.
They were committed to the moment like all good actors.
Let's talk about your third favorite film starring Dustin Hoffman.

(21:22):
This All of these three films have been represented in
People's Top three films over the one hundred and sixty
plus episodes of You and See Nothing Yet, but TUTSI
is an absolute classic.

Speaker 4 (21:34):
I think it may well be certainly top five best
written screen comedies of all time. I think, I mean,
I haven't seen all of them, but what I've seen,
and I've spoken to a lot of other people who
feel that way too.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
I think the.

Speaker 4 (21:50):
Screenplay of this is incredibly good. I know it's now
as it written with Larry Gelbert, who wrote the movie.

Speaker 2 (21:59):
Of mash and also used to work on The Sid
Caesar Show with people.

Speaker 4 (22:04):
Like Neil Simon, and but I'm trying to think of
if it was just him, if it was co written,
I can't remember. But directed by Sidney Pollock, who's amazing director,
Dustin Hoffman never been better. Bill Mahray's in there. Oh
and goodness, who's the Jessica.

Speaker 2 (22:24):
Lange is so incredible.

Speaker 4 (22:27):
It's and I actually watched it again. That is one
of the ones I have watched again recently at first
time in a long time. And yeah, there's no there's
no wasted scene in that movie. Every single scene does
something to move it forward, whether it's moving the plot
forward or just moving the characters relationships with each other forward,
or how much you get to know about them. And

(22:50):
it's it is close to perfect and still really funny,
you know.

Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yeah, Yeah, it's I love that movie.

Speaker 1 (22:58):
It's it's an absolute bracker. And yeah, I love dust
and a half minute Jessica Lang. I feel he's almost
like the heart of that movie. She's great Sidney Pollock,
isn't it as well?

Speaker 2 (23:07):
Sidney poll the director, he plays his agent, Yes, brilliantly.

Speaker 1 (23:12):
Yeah, he's so good Sidney Pollock, three great films. Are
always happy to talk about those three films. But now
let's get talking about the film we here to talk
about today. Damon Harriman. Okay, let's get into it. This

(23:51):
is the one. It's the big one. It's a big film.
This one highest grossing film in ninett sixty seven. Mike
Nichols wins Best Director for It is directed by obviously
written by Buck Henry, starring the great Dustin Hoffman and
Bancroft and Catherine Ross. Damon Harriman, did you enjoy The Graduate?

Speaker 2 (24:10):
I really enjoyed The Graduate.

Speaker 4 (24:12):
This is a tricky one for me because I only
watched this today, so I probably finished it about three
hours ago, and I'm liking it more as each hour passes.
It is one of those movies that, because it's such
a classic and I don't have the investment of childhood nostalgia,

(24:33):
it's almost impossible for it to live up to the hype,
you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (24:38):
And I think, you know, there are films like The
Graduate that I watched, you know, as a kid.

Speaker 4 (24:45):
Watch lots of old movies as a kid, and still
they all hold a special place in my heart. I
think because of the nostalgia that came with him, Like
I guess something like Sound of Music, you know, which
was always on TV as a kid, And I think
it's a great film, but it's also got that thing
of remembering watching it when you're a kid. I imagine

(25:08):
that people who did watch this many times over there
over the years from their teens or twenties onwards.

Speaker 2 (25:14):
I can absolutely see why they adore it. And I
really liked it. I really liked it. I just think.

Speaker 4 (25:22):
That I wish I'd had that moment of seeing it
fresh in my twenties, and it's interesting. Actually, when I
was sort of reading about it, I stumbled across this
article that said the film critic, the American film critic,
Roger Ebert reviewed it in his twenties and he gave
it four stars, and then he reviewed it twenty five

(25:43):
years later and gave it three stars, and he actually,
did you know, they showed the side by side reviews,
and he had.

Speaker 2 (25:53):
He kind of explained what, you know, much better than
I'm doing now.

Speaker 4 (25:57):
But that thing of having seen it in his twenties
and completely relating to Dustin Hoffman's character and seeing the
kind of awkward outsider kid who's trying to make it
through the world, and as opposed to watching it all
or when you're not, you're not relating to that character
in the same way. And I absolutely can see why

(26:20):
so many of my friends were obsessed with it in
our twenties because they were sort of watching it through
the Dustin Hoffman's character's eyes, you know.

Speaker 1 (26:30):
Because I think I think rojlie it makes a point that, yeah,
he was watching it and Dustin Hoffman was the hero
of the story. And then when you watch it as
a as an older person, you're actually going to see
it from Missus Robinson's point of view, and I think
he's one of the headlines or biolines. Was the congratulations,
Missus Robinson. It's taken you, you know, forty years, but

(26:52):
you know we understand your point of view now, or
we you know, we see that you are now the
hero of the story, which you know, it does depend
what ages see and and who you gravitate towards as characters,
because they were all flawed characters, I think, and I
think this is one of the joys of the movie
that you are seeing people make terrible choices the whole

(27:16):
way through. I think, I think that's what ends up
what the movie is actually about. I don't want to
get to the end too quickly, so we made this
kind of slightly uh part that but as it doesn't.
Hoffmann fan, what did you What did you make of
his debut performance?

Speaker 4 (27:37):
He's fantastic, I mean, and I can see why that
film would have kickstarted his career the way it did,
you know, and just really seeing that that that new
style of acting that was coming, you know, obviously people
like Brando had done it many years earlier on the
waterfront and so forth. But there was still a lot

(27:58):
of that old school acting going on around the time
this film is made.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
But Dustin Hoffman certainly wasn't doing that.

Speaker 4 (28:05):
He's sort of really you could really see that sort
of modern style of naturalism that we got very used
to in the seventies and beyond in his performance.

Speaker 1 (28:15):
It was a bit of a changing of the guard.
In the Oscar nominations that I think Spencer Tracy was
up for it for Guess Who's Coming for Dinner? Rod
Steiger wins in the Head of the Night. It's a
great movie that had that was the big winner of
the Night of the sixty eight Oscars. But yeah, Paul
Newman and Warren Beatty and Dustin Hoffman, so there's a
bit of a changing, you know, of the guard. And

(28:36):
in the women's category, Catherine Hepburn wins if I Guess
Who's Coming for dinner? But you have Fade done away,
you know, and Bancroft, and you got Augie Hepburn as well.
So there's the mismash of the new Hollywood and the
older Hollywood, and it.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
Is it's so interesting.

Speaker 4 (28:52):
I mean, he's twenty nine in the film playing a
twenty year old who turns twenty one.

Speaker 2 (28:56):
You buy it. I totally bought it.

Speaker 1 (28:59):
Yeah, I was gonna ask about because you watch a
movie and Hollywood's famous to doing this, of course, you know,
and you watch Grease and everyone looks mismatched, and you know,
the wrong the wrong ages. But so, yeah, I didn't.
I didn't really think of it. I think I think
Anne Bancroft is like thirty five, thirty six.

Speaker 4 (29:17):
She's thirty five playing the older woman, and he's six
years younger than her. And she's i think eight or
nine years older than Catherine Ross, who's playing her daughter.

Speaker 8 (29:28):
She is.

Speaker 2 (29:29):
That's another thing I never realized.

Speaker 4 (29:30):
I assumed that she was at least twenty years older
than him based on the whole concept of the film.

Speaker 2 (29:35):
But yeah, I mean it's sort of you sort of
buy it.

Speaker 4 (29:38):
I guess it's one of those things they tell you
this is your girlfriend's this is you know, his girlfriend's mother,
and you sort of buy that that's the case.

Speaker 2 (29:45):
And she she is actually for me is the performance
of the film. I thought Anne Bancroft was amazing. Yeah,
every moment he was on screen.

Speaker 4 (29:54):
I haven't seen her in a lot of stuff. I
couldn't probably name another Anne Bancroft film. I think she
might be in The Old Men, but I'm sure that's
not one of her.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
Well famous credits.

Speaker 4 (30:06):
But I just thought she was sensational. Like absolutely every
moment she was on screen.

Speaker 2 (30:12):
I loved it.

Speaker 1 (30:13):
There are some moments where there's not a lot of
dialogue for her, where she's at her best almost and
those quieter moments. Is a great scene in the hotel
where Dustin Huffman or Benjamin Brett wants to talk, you know,
and they had that conversation and Benjamin kind of exposed
himself to being quite naive. I mean, I think we

(30:34):
already think he's naive and immature in the ways of
the world, but this kind of exposes him because, you know,
she takes him through he wants to talk, and she
does end up offering you know, a lot in that
they got pregnant, that's why they got married. They live
in separate you know, they sleep in separate rooms or

(30:55):
certainly beds, and and she, you know, she was a
you she's a college studying art. And then she tells
him that she has to leave, you know, to have
the bay. Katherine Ross's character Elaine, and Benjamin's reaction is
to say, oh, I guess you must have just lost
interest over the years in art. And she's facing the

(31:18):
other way and you just see her whole history and
kind of play out in a moment on her face.
It's kind of stunning.

Speaker 4 (31:25):
The framing of the camera in this film is really beautiful,
whether it's a still locked off frame or the camera's.

Speaker 2 (31:32):
Moving or even zooming. Sometimes it's a beautiful looking film.
You know, you're really.

Speaker 4 (31:41):
And I've forgotten the name of the cinematographer, but he's
some guy that had been a cinematographer since the twenty.

Speaker 2 (31:47):
Since the nineteen twenties.

Speaker 1 (31:48):
Wow, and he.

Speaker 4 (31:52):
Did he I think he'd shot ben her like. He
shot a lot of stuff over the years, so he
was an older guy. And yeah, I read that he
was kind of quite challenged by Mike Nichols in this film.
The way he wanted it shot was very unusual.

Speaker 1 (32:10):
Robert Surtez Robert Surtis is his name, So I googled that.
That was off the top of the head. Yeah, I mean,
Nichols is famous for his framing and he is an
absolute master. I mean that, I mean, who's Afraid of
Virginia with which we just covered recently on this and
I'd seen the play starring the wonderful Cat Stewart in that,

(32:33):
and so we were really keen to see the film
and it's it's an amazing film, and that was that
was Mike nichols first film. So this is his second film.
And it's funny because that's based on the play obviously,
and there's so much it's very wordy, lots and lots
of talking. You know that he has to cover off
where this is based on a book, it can kind

(32:54):
of pick and choose a little bit more about how
much he wants the characters to say. And I think
he's very he's got this. I think that'sn't happen. Took
a little while to get used to it. This minimalist
style of acting as well, which you know it is not.
We spoke about the styles of acting and this is,
I guess a new style that then Dustin took a
little while to kind of get used to this, you know,
less is more style of acting. But the yeah, yeah,

(33:17):
the framing. I mean there's one scene, let's have a
listen to it. You obviously won't be able to see
the framing through your your speakers. But it's worth going
back and looking at this for the framing. It's one
of the great I think focus pools in Hollywood. This
is as Elaine finds out, so we have Benjamin Braddock
in the rain. It's also great when she hops in

(33:38):
the car because you kind of see her dress. This
is all great framing. And he's waiting for Elaine, so
he expect it's Elaine, but it's real that it's actually
Missus Robinson whose name his first name is never mentioned
in the movie for those who weren't sure. And they
drive off and I'm going to expose you. He runs back,

(34:01):
drenched in wet. There's a lot of water, a lot
of moisture in this movie, you may have noticed. And
he runs upstairs and we'll pick the scene up there.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
I'm not dressed yet. I said, go over the back
fence of each find the corner. What are you doing?
I have to tell you something.

Speaker 6 (34:30):
What is it?

Speaker 2 (34:31):
That woman, that woman, that older woman that I told
you about, the merry woman that wasn't just some woman?

Speaker 3 (34:37):
What are you telling me, Benjamin? Will you just tell
me what this is all about?

Speaker 8 (34:42):
Oh no, Oh my god, please get out of here,
cry get out, goodbye Benjamin.

Speaker 1 (35:03):
So there's a few things in that scene. I think
one is extraordinarily performed. There's the focus pool I'm talking
about is you would have heard the characters not speaking
for a while. That is Missus Robinson behind Elaine in
Ben's eye line. Ben looks over Elaine's shoulder, sees her.
Elaine is upset, Elaine sees that she works it out,

(35:27):
and the focus pull on it is just, you know,
that's all the good things that focus pulls. We can
do it.

Speaker 4 (35:32):
Maybe the slowest focus pull I think I've ever seen,
like it stays out of focus for ages, like it's
it's it is switching focus.

Speaker 2 (35:41):
But it's so slow. As she turns back to camera.

Speaker 4 (35:45):
As Elaine turns back to camera, and we're about to
see her reaction to just finding out her mother is
the person he's having an affair with. Yeah, it's obviously
a very conscious decision to make it as slow as that,
because I've never seen anything like that.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
It's it's so good and and you know, and and
for those who don't think about these things, you're not
supposed to think about these things at all unless you
are doing a podcast about them and you want to
really think about them or you want to dive on them,
but it involves you know, I think ideally and my
Nichols is so good at knowing when to like when
does to have the camera still, when to move it.

(36:21):
He doesn't overdo things, it seems everything seems deliberate, deliberate,
deliberate and really well chosen. And there are times where
he just lets the camera sit still, but he needs
to get the actors in the right frame, so you
have Dustin Hoffman kind of this almost pulling Catherine Russ
away from the door. But it's it's it's done deliberately,
so obviously he gets the site line into uh into

(36:46):
missus Robinson and I love the line. And again this
just shows Benjamin's immaturity when she goes no, no, no, no,
don't know and he says don't cry, like as if
like she's angry. He hasn't even read that she's angry
and pissed off. He's trying to console her. It's no,
this is not you don't get to do that now

(37:08):
like you've been you've been you've been having sex with
her mother, you've been having this affair don't know. This
is not like a moment where you get to console me.

Speaker 5 (37:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (37:21):
No, it's incredible, as you know, as we're talking about this,
it is incredible to believe that this was the highest
growing engrossing film of nineteen sixty seven, just because there
is no way a film like this would be the
highest grossing film of twenty twenty four.

Speaker 2 (37:36):
Like, there's just no way.

Speaker 4 (37:37):
It's a drama for a start, and it's not a
big Oppenheimer drama.

Speaker 2 (37:43):
It's a small family drama.

Speaker 1 (37:45):
Well, it's a drama comedy.

Speaker 4 (37:47):
I call it a drama comedy. Yeah, I mean some
people probably would call it a comedy. I don't think
I would call it a I think it's a drama
comic drama. Like it's got so much of both in
kind of equal measure, and it's not really not even
the comedy has not really.

Speaker 2 (38:02):
Laughed out loud comedy. It's more kind of smile comedy.
Don't you think?

Speaker 1 (38:06):
I was gonna ask her, literally had the question do
you think this film's funny? Before I ask you that question,
there's one element I want to point out. This scene
when he leaves it leaves the bedroom and missus Robinson says,
you know, leaning quite tight against her. She's leaning against
a white wall, which she assumes he's the bedroom wall

(38:26):
or the corridor wall. And she says goodbye, Benjamin, and
it just camera pans back out and it's not like
she's she's like a thousand miles not a thousand miles away,
but she looks like she's, you know, ten meters away.
All of a sudden, it's like, that doesn't that's not
the house. That's like a that's like a spatial kind
of you know, an in emotional kind of journey playing. Yeah,

(38:47):
like I thought that was again just extraordinary. And I'll
come back to another the montage that really blows me away,
which is when they first start having the affair. But
let's discuss while we're on it. Is this movie funny?
And what's funny about it? I mean, I think Dustin
Hoffman when he's playing Minimalists is really funny, even in

(39:12):
the movies like Little Fuckers and you know, like you know,
movies that you don't think of as he's I think
when he's allowed to play it, and even in these dramas,
I can I've never been able to pinpoint why, But
there's something about him that I find very funny.

Speaker 2 (39:30):
Well, there's a sort of a.

Speaker 4 (39:33):
Hapless like he's very good at playing someone in a
state of hapless distress.

Speaker 2 (39:39):
Yes, you know, he does that.

Speaker 4 (39:41):
He could see a lot. He does that in the
Graduate a lot. Even in Kramer Versus Kramer, which is
certainly not a comedy, there are moments, you know where
he's sort of arguing with his kid about whether he
can have ice cream or not, and that's sort of
funny because he's getting so worked up. He does have
a real skill at that.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
Yeah, is it funny?

Speaker 4 (40:01):
You know, I'm just thinking now, maybe it's accurate to
say the first half of this film is funny, and
the second half is not like the first half of
the comedy and the second half.

Speaker 2 (40:09):
Of the drama. I think the scenes, yeah, so the.

Speaker 4 (40:13):
Scenes where he's being seduced, you know, especially the initial ones,
which you know go on for quite a while as
one sort of sequence to night he takes her home.
His awkwardness is quite funny, like you know, And there
are some funny lines in it too. There were lines

(40:34):
that made me laugh out loud. One line where where
he doesn't seem to be into her and she says,
do you find me undesirable? And he says, oh no,
missus Robinson, I think you're the most attractive of all
my Terrans friends.

Speaker 2 (40:51):
Just a great line.

Speaker 1 (40:53):
And I think I think him checking into the hotel
is hilarious. Like and it's not over the tobby. He's
signing the signing form and he realizes he's signed, and
you know, Nichols doesn't go and get a close up
and signing his name, but we just realized he signed
his own name. And he puts it in his pocket
and he signs.

Speaker 4 (41:13):
Another shuttles it, tries one pocket, that doesn't, he tries
another pocket.

Speaker 2 (41:17):
That's all. It's kind of a cardboard piece of paper sowhere.
It wially crumple easily.

Speaker 1 (41:21):
Yeah. I suspect that that cardboard is just like like
hanging in his jacket somewhere. It's not even it hasn't
even found a pocket, which I think's hilarious. And then
he asks about the car, if do you have a car? Yes,
I was send a bell boy out. Oh no, there's
I only got a toothbrush.

Speaker 4 (41:38):
When he comes back and he's like, tooth brush, Yeah, no,
I mean it is, Yeah, the first high it's interesting,
I guess because it ends with the second half funny
that you know, it ends quite dramatic. It feels mostly
like a drama. Towards the end you sort of forget
how much you have been finding it funny.

Speaker 2 (41:56):
At the start.

Speaker 4 (41:58):
There's another line I loved when after he and missus
Robinson have been sleeping together for a while and he
kind of complains that.

Speaker 2 (42:05):
All they do is get together and sleep again and
have sex.

Speaker 4 (42:07):
Basically, he says, can we maybe liven things up with
some conversation. It's just the idea that the conversation is
the is the spicy bit, because all they do is
have sex.

Speaker 1 (42:21):
Well before, they've had sex in the hotel room and
he says, you know, why we go see a movie?
Would you like to go see a movie? You know,
she's not there to see a movie with him, And
there's the you know, the awkward kiss, and he actually
goes he coughs because she's smoking. He actually coughs before
he kisses her, and then he grabs he grabs her breast,
which was you know, certainly in these days, will be

(42:45):
a dangerous improv to try to pull off. But he
did that, and Bancroft doesn't react to this improvisation by
Dustin Hoff and she just starts scrubbing like there's a
mark on the top. And he said he found that
so funny that she didn't react to him awkwardly grabbing
her breast, and she was more interested in the cleaning

(43:05):
that he was about to break and laugh. And he
could see see or hear Mike Nichols kind of laughing.
So he just turned around, walked towards the back of
the set, which is the wall, and sort of banging
his head against the wall. And this is all improv
and then he's kind of come back in this and
this that's the take that it's in the movie. And
he comes back and then there's no cut. He comes

(43:28):
back and they continue the scene and there's still a
fair bit left in the scene. There's still some stuff
going on.

Speaker 4 (43:34):
I can't believe that's improvised. That's well not improvise. He's
not even doing it in the scene from what you're saying.
He's just doing it is himself right to get to
get back in the scene. Yeah, well, intending for that
to stay in the movie, wasn't do you think?

Speaker 8 (43:47):
No?

Speaker 1 (43:48):
I don't know. Maybe he's waiting for Nichols the yell cut,
but I'm not sure at some point they assume they
pick up the dialogue. I'm not sure if there's any more,
if there's any more verbal improvisation going on, or they
just pick up the line that and Bancroft gives Hoffman
is was the line that was supposed to be in there.

(44:09):
But there's certainly the action was all improvised, and the
fact that come back in into frame and into into
you know, on his marker where he needed to be
he was.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
I'm going to watch that scene again the second we
get off this podcast. I'm so intrigued by that now.

Speaker 1 (44:26):
It's so good. And then when they go it's a
very funny moment. They go back to the hotel, he
goes back with Elaine, and then everyone's calling him mister Gladstone.

Speaker 4 (44:36):
Yes, because they all recognize him from all the times
he's been there having his affair with her mother.

Speaker 1 (44:43):
And when he first goes there and he goes into
the you know, the the hallia for example, the party,
and he says he's with them, and then he goes
and there he's like this kind of sums him up,
and this is actually again this is great writing. He
has no plan. He like, even when he says, yes,
I'm with the Hellya Herriman party, whatever it was, he knows,

(45:06):
like he goes in there, and he doesn't even try
to work his way in. Really, he just pretty quickly
tells them, no, I don't Actually I'm not supposed to
be here. I'm not I'm just looking for a friend.
But he knows that's that's not gonna work. By the way,
eagle eyed that fans have Bewitched. I'm not sure if
you how much bewitched you watched Tiger.

Speaker 4 (45:24):
I am an eagle eye fan of Bewitched, and I
sortly noticed the two characters standing next to each other.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
I was like, well, it was Mike Nichols, a bit
Witched fan. How did that happen?

Speaker 1 (45:34):
Why isn't Samantha in there? Get Samantha in there? Get
bit of Dicky York work him in there?

Speaker 2 (45:39):
Am I right?

Speaker 6 (45:40):
That?

Speaker 2 (45:40):
Can I test my memory? I think it's Aunt Clara
and Aunt Agatha.

Speaker 1 (45:45):
It's Aunt Clara and Esmarelda.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
As morealder, that's right. Who's on Agatha? Then? Is that
another one?

Speaker 1 (45:53):
That's another that's yeah?

Speaker 2 (45:57):
An aunt or is she a cousin I think might have.

Speaker 1 (45:59):
Been a cousin's Asman was the one closer to the camera,
and the ones who's got.

Speaker 4 (46:04):
That Claris, the one who's got that amazing kind of
cracky voice that whenever she turns up randomly in something,
she always does that same character basically she spoke.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
But no, she's absolutely absolutely brilliant. So I think I
think I when I watched it when I was younger,
I didn't necessarily see it as comedically as people you
know sometimes do talk about it. But watching it again,
I really did enjoy it more comedically than I maybe

(46:37):
did the first couple of times I had watched it.
But I completely agree with you. I think most comedies
are like this, to be absolutely honest, Like the comedy
is loaded up front and then particularly these days, for.

Speaker 4 (46:49):
Example of that Tussi is very serious in the last
certainly the last third.

Speaker 1 (46:52):
Yeah, yeah, And a lot of those Richard Curtis films
often the chase happens in the last and there's always
still jokes in there, the race to the airport, and
you know, you might have a couple of little, you know,
gags in there. But yeah, I think most comedies are
because if you get halfway through a comedy you just
haven't laughed once, but you know you may not wait
to laugh, you know, thirty times in the second half

(47:14):
the scene the sequence I really wanted to talk about,
and this again, Mike Nichols, I'm becoming obsessed with. This
is the third month Nichols film we've done for you
and see nothing yet Who's Afraid of Virginia Wall for
a couple of weeks ago with Yon and Cardal knowledge
we did with Kyra and Nicholson, and that has Art

(47:34):
Garf Uncle in the leading role with Jake Nicholson, so
obviously there's a bit of a relationship going on there.
But the scene of where they first start having sex,
so in that hotel room, and there's you know, like
we spoke of this all this, you know this, this
is your first time and you know he's affronted by that,
you know, and that's all. I think. That's all very funny.

(47:56):
The way that's played by Dustin Hoffman and and Bancroft.
She she's knowing what she's doing. She's poking the bear
a little bit. But then I'll try to run through it.
Made some kind of scrappy little notes but I'm going
to try to run through the next kind of montage.
So it goes black. He shuts the door, turns off
the light. It goes black. We start hearing the sounds
of silence. Okay. Then he's in the pool. Okay, he

(48:17):
gets out of the pool. He puts his shirt on.
He's still wet. People who put shirts on when they're wet,
they always kind of freaks me out a little bit.
I'm not sure what anyway, he does that. He enters
the house. He goes to the door of the house.
Then we see him enter the room, the hotel room,
in his shirt, and then he goes to the bed,
lies down on the bed. Missus Robinson starts unbuttoning his shirt,

(48:41):
caressing his chest, and then it goes to a close
up of Ben. Then he gets up and closes the door.
At one point, and his parents are having you remember,
his parents are having dinner, and he closes the door
and he's in his bedroom. He watches he is close

(49:03):
up with him watching I think TV, and he watches
there's somebody crossing back and forth in the frame, and
that's Missus Robinson. She's getting dressed. He watches her to
leave as he gets stressed. He's back sitting up in
his bed, and he gets a towel. He leaves his bedroom.
He's at his house now. He goes to the pool.

(49:23):
His mum watches him, dives into the pool and he's underwater,
and he leads up onto this like this pool mattress
and lands on Missus Robinson as he comes as he
comes up in the lands on the mattress, and then
we hear the voice of his dad Ben, what's going on?
And it's just like the fact that you don't see

(49:44):
any sex take you know, take take place. But you know,
but you you follow this journey completely. You know what's
going on that he's not he's not doing anything to
to aid his future. He's just in this honeymoon period
of having sex with this old lady and receiving an education.

Speaker 2 (50:05):
Yeah, yeah, you're right. I mean again, it just goes
to the skill of Mike Nichols. What what an incredible director.
And to think that was his second film, you know, yeah, yeah,
that is Yeah, I mean it's funny.

Speaker 4 (50:19):
I don't know if does this happen often that the
more we're talking about this, I'm wanting to see it again.
Do you find that your whole show is about people
who haven't seen films.

Speaker 2 (50:27):
Do you Finally?

Speaker 1 (50:27):
Often usually always.

Speaker 2 (50:30):
At the end of this, I just want to see
it again now, yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:32):
Usually always to be honest, and I always make the
point to our audience that I'm speaking to our guests
who sometimes I've seen a film a few times. This movie,
I've probably seen there five or six times, including two
this week, but you have just watched it this morning.
My guess is always just processing a film for the
first time that they've just seen. Like there have been
somebody who've come on and not really liked the film,

(50:53):
and then by the end and going, actually, I'll give
it another go. I'll give it another go, because this
is what the podcast exists for. Like we have this
romantic notion it will go see a movie and hang
out in a cafe or a bar afterwards and actually
chat about it. But I'm not sure about you, Damon.
But I often see movies by myself. You know, I'm
a comedian, you know, like at the eleven o'clock morning session,

(51:13):
you know, that's that's the one I like to go to.
And you know, sometimes I go see it with somebody else.
But sometimes it's an impulsive decision to go see a
film that day and haven't got time to rustle up anyone,
so I just happily go by myself. And sometimes you
don't get to have that chat. So this is, you know,
this is what it sall.

Speaker 4 (51:30):
And as I was sort of saying earlier, there is
something very different about seeing a classic for the first
time where I'm glad I've got that first one out
of the way now, so now I can actually watch
it again and sort of start to appreciate.

Speaker 2 (51:43):
It without that hanging over it, you know. Yeah, as
I say, like if you.

Speaker 4 (51:47):
Discover a classic when you're fourteen, it doesn't have anything
usually that built up. It's probably just something your parents said,
oh you should watch this, or it happened to be
on and you suddenly become obsessed with it, and then
it kind of builds up this this history for you
as the years go on.

Speaker 2 (52:02):
But as I say, it's so hard with one like this,
which is so.

Speaker 4 (52:06):
Famous for being a classic, that I'm glad I've got
that one out of the way, And the more I
think about it now, the more I'm looking forward to.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
Seeing it again.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
Yeah, and when you watch it again, check out that sequence,
but I was just check out and Bancroft didn't want
to be you know, have any nude scenes and so
but the way they cover it off, like when she
kind of strips down in that bedroom at a start,
and for the first seduction seduction attempt, there's these subliminal
little shots of you know, of her, you know, parts

(52:38):
of a body that's so kind of quick and and
and there's reflection in the photo frame a couple of
times there and then in the hotel room as well
when she's about to leave because they've had that argument.
It's it's it's so good one of the things. I
really I'm not sure if it's a good thing about
the film, and some people will see it as a weakness,
but we're not really sure if anyone's motivations really like

(53:01):
and it doesn't bother me for some reason where sometimes
it might. We're not sure why Ben changes his mind
and the sides to you know, take up the core.
But I think we kind of understand that, you know,
a young man might do that, you know, it might
be a bit intimidated in the moment and then have
time to think about his parents harassing him about getting

(53:22):
a job and thinking about his future, and he's like, nah,
I'm gonna I'm going to have some fun for a
little while. I might take that up. I think we
kind of get that that might happen.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
Yeah, yeah, I can believe that.

Speaker 4 (53:34):
And I guess for her it's the kind of sexless,
unhappy marriage that she's in. The bigger one for me
in terms of or the biggest one for me in
terms of trying to find logic in a motivation is
just the fact that his obsession with the lane comes
out of literally one date. Yes, you know, it sort

(53:55):
of plays out over a few different scenes, but it's
one night, you know, when they go to the bars
and then the Hamburger joint and all that, all that stuff.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
It's one day date that he doesn't want to go on,
and he's is kind of o fish to her to
begin with, takes her to a strip club and I
know you've been trying to get nipple tassels back in vogue,
not only in cinema but in real life, damon, for
for many years. So you've been happy, to say, happy
really working and and yeah, so's that moment she she

(54:28):
kind of he knows he's gone too far. She gets upset.
There's there's some tears, and I guess you, I guess
Mike Nichols is hoping that you believe that he has
empathy for her. He sees her in maybe a different light.
He knows he's acting like a jerk. This is not
who he wants to be. I need to make it

(54:50):
up to this girl, and then perhaps you know, I mean,
people have fallen in love over at night. You know,
it does happen.

Speaker 4 (54:59):
Although this is isn't this is I mean, this is
I mean he decides to marry her based on essentially
that night. He says to his parents, I'm going to
marry Elaine. And look, it's it's not like it took
me out of the movie. But I think that's only
because it's a movie from nineteen sixty seven. I don't

(55:20):
think you could make a present day movie where someone
has a date and then, I mean, unless that was
the joke, unless the fact that they wanted to get
married after one day was the joke. But in this film,
it's sort of played out as that's kind of a
reasonable thing to want. It's metter once he's in love,
and he's going to track her down and convince her

(55:40):
to marry him.

Speaker 1 (55:41):
Well there, let's have a listen to that scene, because
I think there's also some pretty talking about the film
being is it funny or not? I think this scenes
also plays as quite funny as.

Speaker 6 (55:50):
Listen say that again, I'm going to marry Elaine Rabbinson.

Speaker 2 (56:02):
Well, well, well, what's happening?

Speaker 3 (56:05):
Ben says that he and Elaine are getting married.

Speaker 2 (56:10):
I don't believe it, that's what he says.

Speaker 6 (56:13):
Right, I'm going up to Berkeley today.

Speaker 2 (56:20):
Come on, we got to call the Robinsons. We've got
something to celebrate.

Speaker 6 (56:23):
No, I think you want to wait on that. They
don't know, No, they don't. Well, Ben, did you decide
all this about an hour ago?

Speaker 3 (56:31):
Wait a minute, you talked to Elne this morning.

Speaker 6 (56:34):
No, she doesn't know about it.

Speaker 3 (56:36):
You mean she doesn't know that you're coming up to Berkeley.

Speaker 6 (56:39):
No, actually she doesn't know about us getting married yet.

Speaker 3 (56:42):
Well, then did you two talk this over?

Speaker 6 (56:44):
We haven't?

Speaker 3 (56:45):
You haven't, Ben, This whole idea sounds pretty half baked.

Speaker 4 (56:50):
No, it's not.

Speaker 6 (56:51):
It's completely baked. It's a decision I've made.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
Well, what makes you think she wants to marry you?

Speaker 6 (56:57):
She doesn't to be perfectly honest, she doesn't like me, and.

Speaker 1 (57:04):
Then and then the beautiful pop of the toast was
perfect a nice touch. But I think that plays, I
think really funny and doesn't happen, does such a great
job of just again that being as minimal and small
as possible.

Speaker 2 (57:21):
Yeah, oh he does.

Speaker 4 (57:21):
I mean, in fact, you could sort of tell listening
to that scene, how you've kind of got a couple
of actors who.

Speaker 2 (57:28):
Are a little older and doing more of an old.

Speaker 4 (57:30):
School, very theatrical Oh, Darling, that's wonderful kind of style.

Speaker 2 (57:36):
And he's just like, yeah, she doesn't even like me.

Speaker 4 (57:39):
It's a very you can see the two styles very
clearly in that scene.

Speaker 1 (57:43):
But you also have like, there's not much Katherine Ross,
I think, does you know enough? With not a lot?
We don't really know. We don't know much about her.
There's these data we don't know even what. Maybe I've
missed something, but we didn't even know what Dustin Hoffmann
was studying, Ben was studying it.

Speaker 2 (58:03):
I don't think we do.

Speaker 1 (58:05):
It doesn't It's kind of great because you kind of
you're not kind of it's not in your head about
maybe you're not trying to work out his future for himself.
You know, you're not trying to go maybe if he
applied to this. You just know he's a graduate. We
all know what it's like to, you know, come out
of either high school or college or university and kind
of go what now? And that's all. That's the only
emotion we need to know, And we don't. We don't

(58:27):
know what Katherine Ross is studying. We don't really do
you think missus Robinson when she says, do not date Elaine?
Who is she protecting? Is she protecting? Is she doing
it for herself? Is she doing it for Ben? Is
she warning Ben about Elaine? Or is she doing it
for Elaine protecting her from Ben? Do you have a
vibe as to.

Speaker 2 (58:47):
Question I've been wondering that.

Speaker 4 (58:50):
I mean, it sort of plays like, I guess, a
kind of a jealousy, like I wouldn't want you know
your mind, Or it also could play like.

Speaker 8 (59:05):
That.

Speaker 4 (59:06):
I realize how inappropriate that would be for my daughter to,
whether she found out or not, to be sleeping with
the man who's been sleeping with her mother.

Speaker 2 (59:16):
Yes, just the general idea of that.

Speaker 4 (59:20):
I don't think she's I don't think when because in
the film she says it's because he's not good.

Speaker 1 (59:25):
Enough for her, right, that's right.

Speaker 2 (59:27):
Yes, I think that's how she puts it. I don't,
I don't. I didn't feel like she meant that. But
it's hard to know. It's a really good question.

Speaker 1 (59:37):
Because they give us nothing to suggests any much warmth
between Catherine and her mother, Like there's very few shared
scenes of dialogue or you know, you don't. She's certainly
not happy when Benjamin comes over, understandably for the date,
those quiet scenes with her. I just think where she's,

(59:59):
you know, in the car and it's raining, and when
he leaves the bedgroom we spoke about before, and when
he arrives and she's sitting on the things she's always wearing,
by the way, like you made those furs or zebra
like stripes to suggests she is predatory. But yeah, I
think I think she's so good. So I so okay.

(01:00:21):
As we get towards the end, I think this is
one of the great endings of all time, by the way,
So we obviously have the race to the church and
he finally and it gets a little bit uncomfortable for
I think, because you know, he does go to Berkeley
and there's the Weirds by the way, which I must

(01:00:42):
say i'd forgotten about. Where they're in the room together
in his room he's rented out at the university, and
Elaine informs him that her mother has told her that
man raped her.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
Yeah. That was incredibly jarring, wasn't it.

Speaker 4 (01:01:02):
You're just like what I mean, just hearing that word
in that movie seemed zo unexpected and certainly unexpected given
that you've seen what happened and it certainly wasn't the case.
It certainly makes you, you know, any kind of charm
that missus Robinson had earlier sort of falls away very
quickly when you hear she's accusing him of that when
you've seen quite well, if anything the other way around

(01:01:25):
in those interactions they had.

Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
It certainly does pop. And then you wonder you speak
about Ben's you know, flip and pivot as far as like,
are not interested to I'm going to marry you? Like,
why doesn't Elaine kind of go okay, I'm going to
find more out about this allegation before I decide to
potentially marry entertained the thought of marrying you.

Speaker 2 (01:01:48):
That's a really good point because she doesn't know.

Speaker 4 (01:01:50):
She just sort of takes his word for it, doesn't
she We know as an audience what took place, but
she doesn't. And it is odd that she not only
contemplates that she's asking him not to leave, even and
then of course at the very end she chooses him.

Speaker 1 (01:02:03):
That was one of the big kind of maybe it's
an era a time thing. As far as you know,
this was nineteen sixty seven. We all know, you know,
you know, disgustingly, rape, you know, sometimes was thrown the
word was thrown around more liberally. The act wasn't maybe
followed up the way it should have been. So yeah,

(01:02:24):
maybe it was it was considered I don't know, whimsical
or something. I don't know what the word is.

Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
But yeah, it's hard to know.

Speaker 4 (01:02:33):
I mean, I think in the movie they're sort of
suggesting that he gives a convincing enough explanation of what
really happened. But yeah, you're right, in a real world scenario,
there's no way for her to know he's telling her
the truth.

Speaker 2 (01:02:48):
So there are a lot of I mean a lot
of things of that movie that you wouldn't make to that.

Speaker 4 (01:02:52):
I mean, even just the that the Anne Bancroft character,
Missus Robinson character would.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
Be very hard to have it a film today, you know,
you know, it's.

Speaker 4 (01:03:04):
It's very much gets away with it purely because it's
an old movie.

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
Yeah, and that's not to do with necessarily her being
the old an older woman. I mean there's been you know,
not at all. No, no, no, you're you're not saying
that because Bull Durham and there's one recently then Hathaway.

Speaker 4 (01:03:16):
There's just the way that you know, initially she's very
very sexually aggressive towards him, and he's not not interested,
very clearly not.

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
He's like she's locking him in his you know, he's
trapping him basically. But yeah, so there's a bit of
a stalking phase going on by Benjaminer. Then he gets
to the wedding. Let's have a quick listen to Eline
getting married?

Speaker 3 (01:04:02):
Where star going?

Speaker 1 (01:04:03):
What's he doing there?

Speaker 6 (01:04:13):
It is?

Speaker 1 (01:04:14):
So then a fight breaks out. She decides she sees
like the screaming faces of her parents, the angry faces
of her parents, decides she's going to go with ben
There's a fight, bus out. They use the crucifix to
kind of steer them away, then lock the doors and
they run off on the bus. If you have a

(01:04:34):
specially it's supposally be quite sweet, but then it turns
a bit bitter by the long shot, the length of
time that Mike Nichols stays on Dustin Huffman and Catherine Ross,
what do you make of the ending and what was
it saying?

Speaker 4 (01:04:54):
I took it to be that because they sit, you know,
in this bus and they look like it just married,
happy couple, you know, because she's in them they're not
married obviously that she's in the wedding dress, and they're
all laughs and smiles, and the laughs sort of die
down and the smiles sort of die down, and as
you say, the shot holds for quite a while and

(01:05:15):
their expressions start to become sort of more neutral and
then slightly troubled. Perhaps I'm sure of what's just happened
and what the consequences of that decision are.

Speaker 6 (01:05:27):
Going to be.

Speaker 1 (01:05:28):
I completely agree, and I think, I mean the Sounds
of Silence is playing, which has, you know, almost become
a meme soundtrack now, and I think this is what
I think I'd love about this movie is you are
watching people make bad decisions all the way through, or
not knowing their direction, so they are forced into bad choices.

(01:05:49):
And you know, this is about I think about two
young people who are looking at their parents and I
don't want to be like them, and I want to,
you know, rebel a little bit, and and they do that,
but they're not really what are they really rebelling against.
You know, they've got privilege kind of lifestyles. You know
their parents are from what we see, you know, you

(01:06:15):
know they're they're obviously their parents. You know, they can
be a bit embarrassing, they can make you feel a
bit uncomfortable. But you know, missus Robinsons has stuck it out,
you know, in a loveless marriage. But in the end
they get to the end and Elaine has already been
forced to jomp out of college because you know, back
then you've been married a person, you know, the expectation

(01:06:37):
is you get pregnant and try for a baby not
long after. And so she's left already left college when
she's going to marry the other guy, Benjamin's left his
car behind.

Speaker 8 (01:06:47):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:06:49):
Yeah. There, so they're poor, that they've pissed off their families,
that they've left their life of privilege. I think they've
realized they have made the same mistake or the falling
through the same trap as potentially their parents have. And
this is just a cycle. Think if you don't have that,
And this is why all those choices made that I
was speaking about before that maybe you know Mike Nichols

(01:07:10):
doesn't want to give us all that information because you know,
he doesn't want us to feel like, ah, we don't
necessarily want to see Elaine and Ben fall in love,
because that would be the happy ending that finishes twenty
seconds earlier when they are happy on the bus. You know,
if they've earned our goodwill that they are are actually

(01:07:33):
in love and this thing's forever, then sure, finish it
twenty seconds earlier. But because that hasn't been earned, finish
it go for an extra thirty seconds and see the
reality kind of drop into their faces. And I think
that gives me actually kind of that's what I think
makes this a great film.

Speaker 4 (01:07:52):
Yeah, no, well said, I completely agree, And yeah, it
would have been a very different film if they'd cut
it out earlier, wouldn't it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:04):
And I think the hammer home the point. There's a
scene in the hotel after they have that fight and
he ends up staying and in he's dressed and she's
put her stockings back on, and he just says, let's
you know, I won't date to Lane. I won't date
to Lane. Let's not talk about this anymore, but let's
not talk at all. And he slowly gets stressed in
the pants across over to and bankrupt, and she's kind

(01:08:25):
of sadly getting dressed, sorry, get taking her stockings off,
and it just looks like a loveless marriage already. And
I think that kind of tone feels like that's what
the last scene is also going for. And you can
also make the point by the way that I think
Benjamin Braddock's character is not particularly likable, but either, you know,

(01:08:48):
Missus Robinson has her moment, certainly the allegation that we
spoke about before. Catherine's you know, she's a bit of
ray of sunshine, but you know she if she's making
weird decisions about you, maybe I'll marry you, maybe marry him.
It's like, yeah, run.

Speaker 2 (01:09:02):
At the altar. Ben's turning up big, very stalky.

Speaker 4 (01:09:06):
At the end.

Speaker 2 (01:09:07):
There basically a film of horrible people.

Speaker 1 (01:09:11):
It's son Feldian in a way, isn't it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:14):
Yeah. Yeah, well, in a similar way, you still want
to spend time with these people.

Speaker 1 (01:09:18):
Yeah, absolutely, and it's partly due to how good the
performances are. I think absolutely. I think it's it's it's
so good. A few little fun facts before we let
you go, because this podcast comes with homework, and I
thank you for making the time. You are extremely busy,
and there's a few little fun facts. Robert Redford had

(01:09:41):
had worked with Mike Nichols before and wanted to play
the role and make Nichols said, look in the mirror,
there's no way you could play somebody who's, you know,
struggling to attract the opposite sex.

Speaker 2 (01:09:55):
So he yeah, that wouldn't have worked.

Speaker 1 (01:09:58):
That wouldn't have worked. Dustin Hoffman was concerned the fact
that he was Jewish and his parents weren't, but Mike
Nichol said, well, maybe a Jewish on the inside, which
I'm not exactly sure what that means. That's that's, that's
what I said. Gene Hackman was actually cast as mister
Robinson funnily enough, but it was fired after a week

(01:10:21):
of rehearsal for reasons a little bit nebulous. But it
all worked out quite well because he then went on
to Bonnie and Clyde, which was nominated for an Oscar
that following year, so augurd for him, that kind of
kicked out of his career. During the screen test, Dustin
Hoffman making a few questionable calls, Dustin Hoffman back here,

(01:10:44):
he pinched Katherine Ross on the bum and he Catherine
berated him, and he kind of slunk off, you know,
a bit sheepish, you know, tail between his legs. And
Mike Nichols saw that and actually kind of thought that
kind of reaction is exactly how Benjamin Braddock would react,
so that kind of helped him get the role. It's

(01:11:05):
the only Oscar director has been. It was one without
any other nominations winning. That was the only one up
until twenty twenty one where powered the Dog Johan Campion's
Powdered Dogs. She won for that with no other wins
at the Oscars. That's just really interesting and dusn't. Hoffman

(01:11:27):
was supposed to be in the mel Brooks of the
producers and heard about this role and asked mel Brooks
if he could audition. Mel Brooks knew a bit about
the role because he was married to Anne Bancroft, and agreed,
thinking there's no way they're gonna cast Dustin Hoffman this shy,

(01:11:49):
this shy kid, you know, short stature, because in the
book he's actually written as a waspy kind of you know,
athletic blonde guy. So there's a mass call for Mike
Nichols to cast doesn't Hoffman. So mel Brooks thinking the
same way. I think there's no way he's going to
cast him. But he got the role and ended up

(01:12:09):
spending some time with his wife on screen obviously. And
finally there was a interesting like it doesn't happen, goes on,
it makes Midnight Cowboys his next film, and then he
just explodes and Mike Nichols advised him not to do
Midnight Cowboy. It's not a great role for you. He
was wrong. But at Bancroft, and this is maybe a
little bit of sexism involved in Hollywood, does not make

(01:12:31):
a film for another five years. Yeah, the reason I'm
not completely aware of. But you know, it's just interesting
because she got nominally for an Oscar an amazing performance,
as we've noted. But yes, mate, like I said, you
are working on so many different things you have. Congratulations
on the Bike Riders. I saw that you and Tom
Hardy and Jodi Comer. I absolutely loved it. I've expressed

(01:12:53):
this to you. That was a great ride with another Nichols,
of Jeff Nichols. This time. They're not related at all,
are they. I'm just asking.

Speaker 2 (01:13:03):
I never heard that they are.

Speaker 8 (01:13:05):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:13:05):
I think that would be too good a story to
not be out there.

Speaker 1 (01:13:08):
Yeap, yep. And there's lots of exciting things. I mentioned earlier.
You were doing a series with Kevin Bacon which will
be out and I imagined maybe some time in the
next year. But also I'm very excited Better Man comes
out we think later this year, which is the Robbie
Williams story. I'm fascinated about this. I've heard all kinds

(01:13:32):
of rumors about plot lines and how I believe it's
going to be very different. It's from the gentleman who
brought us The Greatest Showman, which was one of the
all time, you know, one of the big surprise hits
a few years ago, of course, if Hugh Jackman. I
was at Brod Laver Arena watching Robbie Williams perform, and
they were shooting that concert for the film as well.

(01:13:52):
So you had like an area at the front where
people had been invited and they were way more dressed
up than the rest of the crowd, for example, and.

Speaker 2 (01:14:00):
Probably dressed in nineties gear.

Speaker 4 (01:14:02):
I think because it was Yeah, it was you know,
shooting scenes.

Speaker 2 (01:14:06):
That were earlier in his career.

Speaker 4 (01:14:08):
Yes, yeah, Look, I probably can't talk too much about it,
which is that really annoying act to cliche. I'm sorry,
I can't talk about it. But they're they're they're keeping
a lot of this secret for the moment. But all
I will say is it is. I have seen it,
and it is quite spectacular. Michael Gracie, the director is

(01:14:28):
is really truly a genious and I think it's it's
going to be. Yeah, it's going to be a hell
of a rite. As you say, there's lots of little
there are things about it that make it very unusual
and very different from a regular biopic that we've we've
kind of become used to in the last few years.

Speaker 1 (01:14:49):
Every time I spent with somebody about including Robbie Williams himself,
I've you know, the chat to him briefly about it.
Everyone has his little smirk on their face. There's something
we don't know that is going to blow our minds.

Speaker 2 (01:15:05):
I think that's accurate. Yeah, I think there's something, but
it's going to blow your mind. I very cool.

Speaker 1 (01:15:12):
I love it, mate, and you know, congratulations you you
are always working and always the breadth of roles that
you can play is absolutely incredible. And and yes, and
of course I may have briefly mentioned it in our intro,
but hopefully there's something, a little project we can announce
in a year or two that we're we've quietly been

(01:15:35):
tapping away on.

Speaker 4 (01:15:36):
I can't say too much something we're tapping away on.

Speaker 1 (01:15:38):
It's something we're tapping away on, but hopefully one day
it says a lot of day. But that's been a
real joy just to see your process and to work
with you on that as well.

Speaker 2 (01:15:47):
It's been great.

Speaker 1 (01:15:48):
No details are being spilled as of yet, Mate.

Speaker 2 (01:15:52):
Even more secretive than the role I know, but we're not.

Speaker 1 (01:15:55):
But we're both smirking, which means is something that you
don't know about. This gonna blow you away my again.
Thank you, sorry much, Mite, and I'll let you get
back to your lot in Los Angeles and we'll see
Becky soon.

Speaker 3 (01:16:07):
Man.

Speaker 4 (01:16:09):
I think.

Speaker 5 (01:16:11):
I think you ought to be taking it a little
easier right now than you seem to be. Sew a
few wild oats take things as they come, have a
good time with the girls, and so far, don't get up.

Speaker 2 (01:16:29):
I uh, I was just telling.

Speaker 5 (01:16:33):
Been here that he ought to sew a few wild
oats have a good time while he can.

Speaker 2 (01:16:39):
You think that's sound advice? Yes, I do.

Speaker 6 (01:16:43):
I got to go.

Speaker 4 (01:16:46):
You have your shop of a few flings this summer.

Speaker 2 (01:16:51):
I bet you're you're quite a lady's man.

Speaker 5 (01:16:53):
Oh no, you look to me like the kind of
guy who has to fight.

Speaker 2 (01:17:00):
O woe that doesn't he look to you like the
kay of guy who has to fight? Yes, he does,
I'm saying.

Speaker 5 (01:17:07):
Elaine gets down from Berkeley on sad Oh yeah, how
would you get her a call?

Speaker 7 (01:17:13):
I will.

Speaker 1 (01:17:16):
Be careful what you wish for, mister Robinson or advising
Benjamin sewing his wild hearts, Well, he sewed him a
little too well, perhaps the Graduate of nineteen sixty seven.
Mike Nichols fantastic, Dustin Hoffman and Bancroft. Really, I really
enjoy enjoy the film, and I think, yeah, I loved

(01:17:40):
chatting to Damon about it, and I loved And this
is what these podcasts I wanted to be, where a
guest can watch a film and they can still be
working it out process and we can talk about it.
That's what film I think he's supposed to be so
like the Damon is maybe the busiest guests I've had
on the show. I didn't ask him for a while
because I thought he's too busy. He's too busy, but

(01:18:00):
I finally kind of dropped it in there and he
is like, very quickly, said yeah, I love to. So
the graduate it was. If you enjoyed a podcast, you know,
you get it for free. So I've got one favor.
Go to the iTunes store and give us a rating.
I recommend five or maybe a review. That would be wonderful.
It keeps the algorithm working in the right direction. If

(01:18:22):
you want to email us, Yasny podcast at gmail dot
com would love to hear from you, and also through
our speak pipe. You can get onto our speak pipe
and leave a message, ask a question about a guest
or a film that we've covered, or a film that
you might want us to cover. We would love to
hear from you. And you ain't seen nothing yet until then.
Back them out

Speaker 5 (01:18:52):
And so we leave old Pete save Vansul and to
our friends of the radio audience, we've been a pleasant
a time

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