November 19, 2024 • 11 mins
The Prime Minister says there needs to be rules in Parliament to ensure there's debate about difficult issues, without it degenerating into chaos.
Speaker Gerry Brownlee's confirmed he's received complaints about Te Pati Māori's haka in the House last week.
David Seymour and Shane Jones have both asked him to consider changes.
Christopher Luxon told Mike Hosking there has to be respect for rules.
“You’ve got to be able to have proper conversations in a Parliament without it just degenerating into, you know, fisticuffs,” he said.
“We just don’t need any of that.”
He also believes just 'a piece' of the mass Hikoi was focused on the Government as a whole, rather than just the Treaty Principles Bill.
Police estimate around 42 thousand people joined yesterday's Hikoi, making it one of the largest protests to ever take place in the capital.
A large number of signs called out David Seymour, the architect of the Bill, by name.
Luxon told Hosking it seemed to be pretty focused on the Bill.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Christoph Luxan back in the country of course, and was
there for yesterday Shenanigans. He's well, that's very good morning
to you.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Good morning, Mike, good with you.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hell I actualanged Jones on earlier on standing orders, and
I saw him in the house yesterday. And so they've
got two things, as far as I can work out,
one the Privileges Committee, whether anything is done out of
the mess last week, and two standing orders. Would you
back Jones slash Brownly on looking at standing orders to
try and tidy this place up.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Yes, yeah, absolutely, In fact we've already done that, supporting
asking that through a letter to the Speaker, I think
yesterday as well. I mean, the challenge here is you've
got to have some rules in Parliament that mean that
you can have a debate and a discussion on difficult
issues of which there will be strong feelings on all
sides of a debate, without it just degenerating into sort
of chaos. And so you know, that's the challenge back
(00:47):
to the Speaker, who's the head of the legislature here.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
In his land.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
I run the executive, he runs the legislature, and we've
got to make sure that we're getting standing orders and
rules within the Parliament so that you can facilitate difficult
debates and conversations without degenerating into what we saw last Thursday.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Problem is that I put to Shane Jones and he
didn't have an answer. What is it standing orders can
do that is actually effective?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Well, that's the challenge we're putting back to the Speaker
to say, look, you know we've always had these rules
that are operational within Parliament, and how do we make
sure that they are enforceable, that they're the right rule
for the situations we encounter from time to time in
Parliament today and are they tough enough and are there
you are they strong enough and so to deal with
(01:31):
you know, the conversations we're going to have going forward
and we have already. So you just there's got to
be respect for some rules because otherwise a democracy, you know,
you've got to be able to have proper conversations in
a parliament without it just degenerating. And you know, fisty
cuffs ultimately is what you see in some other parliaments
around the world, and you know, we just don't need
any of that. We just need to say, look, it's
a good time for us to review it. We've got
(01:54):
a new generation of politicians in the Parliament, but we
equally people have to respect the rules.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Is there a role for the Religious Committee? And to
the extent that they have incredible power, theoretically they never
use it, should they?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Yes, it's ultimately again a decision for the Speaker and
really as Prime Minister running the executive I can't really
comment too much about that because it's really his decision.
But that's why you know, we as a National Party
for example, wrote to him to say, look, you know,
we need to revisit what's going on because we can't
have disruptions like that when we're trying to Yeah, I
(02:28):
appreciate people feel strongly about it, but there's still rules.
Otherwise you just never get anything done. If that's just
how it degenerates.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
So what's your view? What's your view of what this
country has looked like to the world in the last
week with all the loveries sharing it on social media
going yes, queen look at New Zealand, go do we
look good or do we look bad?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Look? I don't.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
I mean, I've been just come back from Apec and
to be honest, it wasn't raised with me by any
of the leaders, and I'm not sure they actually saw it,
to be honest, I know we very sense.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
To believe they didn't because of according to where hundreds
of millions of people all over the world apparently have
seen it.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah. Well look, I mean there's no doubt about it.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Like it's a It's an emosive issue of which there
are strong views on all sides around treaty. There always
has been in New Zealand and there always will be.
But the key thing is that in the arch of
our history we keep wrestling with it. I just think
you know, what I've said to you and others is
that you know, the bottom line for us as a
national party is I just don't think the Treaty Principal's
Bill's quite a simplistic way to sort of at a
(03:30):
stroke of a pen.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
You've said that about a home and we shall sometimes.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Yeah, but we should pick up the issues like we
have around unwinding co governance and public services, around three
wards of the Maori Health Authority or MECCA or the
Marii Wards. That's what we've been doing. You take an
issue by issue, case by case, and your way through it.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
I just don't think this well there was money. Yeah,
that was my next question. How much of the protest
do you reckon was about the Principal's bill versus the
other stuff that you have engineered that Mauri feel agreed about.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
I'm sure there was a piece of it.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
I mean, it did seem to be pretty focused on
the treaty Principal's bill, and you know that was the
dominant conversation from what I could pick up what people
were articulating. The reality is, you know, we have been elected.
We've come to power because we want to be able
to improve outcomes from Maria and non Maori. And you
know there has been as I said this morning till
another media outlet like we haven't had a conversation about that,
(04:20):
only twelve percent of our Maori students are where they
need to be going to high school on mathematics.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
We had done a hell of a lot of emergency housing.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
The you know, the any statue want they they're not
interested in that. They're the retention seekers that unless you
give them the keys to the country, they're not interested
because that's what they're after, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Well, I mean I do think they'd become incredibly separate
us in recent years and that's been a change in
the shift from the mighty Party of old that John
Key could work with versus one that we have today.
But you know, that's the thing is, you know, frankly,
you know, when you take a step back, Marty want
higher incomes, they want better housing, they want to be
less victims of crime, they want better school attendance, next
demic outcomes daily time.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
But giving them the keys to the country so they
can run their own country and their own parliament and
their own world, that's what they want. Yeah, well that
doesn't work because what we need to tell so in
the ensuing period it's up to you to either do
something as Prime Minister or give up, because never the
Twain shall meet. I mean, what you saw yesterday was
(05:22):
not a discussion. It's not a debate. There's no nuance,
there's no subtlety. They don't care, they're not interested. They
want the keys to the country. And then given they're
not going to get it, where do we go.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Yeah, well we're not going to get it because it's
not going to pass, it's not going to come law.
So but the bigger issue is that's what we should
be focused on. As you know, That's why I said, EO,
the economy, the public services, the law and order, that's
the agenda for New Zealand, whether you're Maori or non Mandy,
because it turns out we all want the same things.
And you know, that's my conversation with EWE leaders is
you know, why aren't we having more of those conversations,
(05:55):
And in fact we are. You know, behind the scenes,
there's been some incredible work done on social housing where
EWE government and business have come together to sort out
how we get pre built homes onto places and to
places that we need to get them to. And that's
exactly the kind of conversations we need to be having.
What are we going to do about lifting Maori educational
achievement health outcomes? We need higher immunization rates for Mari
(06:17):
under two year olds, as we do across the whole country, frankly,
but we also need that amongst the Maori community as well,
so that they want the same things as all Kiwis.
And honestly, the last six years their outcomes went backwards
under a so called labor government with a much vaunted
Malti caucus. They didn't deliver.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
They did not.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Deliver part of the problem. You need to get onto
the wait Tangi Tribunal. You keep saying you're going to
look at it, but you haven't. Last week they allegedly
forced the Health Ministry to release unredacted reports. What gives
them the right to do that? And doesn't that add
to the ongoing problem and belief that the Waitangi Tribunal,
if not the courts, are just an outlet for aggrieved mari.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Yes, so, I mean we try and work with them
in good faith as best we possibly can. But look,
we campaigned on a set of policies and we're elected
to implement them, and you know that they can. You know,
there's a legitimate you know, as I said to you before,
there's there's a legitimate question whether you're on all sides
of that debate that having worked our way through the
vast majority of treaty settlements, which is what the way
(07:18):
Tania Tribunal was really set up to deal with in
a post settlement world, you've actually got a legitimate question
to ask about what should their role. You're going to
do something, Well, we'll get there, but we've got forty
three sections.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
I'm trying to know.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Well, no, I'm trying to well, no disrespect, I've had
twelve months in this job. I've had four quarterly plans.
I work and pick the actions we're going to go
forward with.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Each one will get is causing part of the problem.
Every second day I'm listening to the White Tangi Tribunal
whine on about another report and another issue in another problem,
in another case that goes nowhere but causes the angst
that leads to what we've seen in the past week.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Yeah, so trust me, we'll get there, we'll deal with it.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
But right now, the quarter unfocused on is the one
to December thirty one, where I've got forty three actions
to get nailed, including gang patches and getting all that
stuff operationalized and some other things. When we do it,
we'll open it up, we'll deal with it properly, and
we'll work our way through it. But for right now, yeah,
I've got to focus on some other things, to get
the economy moving, to get law and order better, to
get better.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Public services, education in particular. So you know we'll get that.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
But there is a genuinely legitimate question. I don't care
which side of the debate you're on, you know that
is I think of you. That's how by many people.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
On your radar. The skills visa numbers that came out
the other day, barely over one percent of applications of
people coming to this country a skills visa. The Order
to General says, we've got to improve that process. We've
got to improve and make it slicker, but we're also
get to get more than two percent. Who the hell
are the people coming into the country. Yeah, look at
the ninety eight people coming into the country. You aren't
you worried about that? Given them most of the people
(08:51):
are leaving the country are young, bright people, and they're
off to Australia, if not Europe.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Yeah, well, I mean first and foremost, that's what That's exactly.
The point is that, you know, I kind of want
my kids and my grandkids ultimately to stay here in
his own because I think it's a place of opportunity.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
That.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Yeah, and that's why I'm saying we've got to work
hard on rebuilding economis. If you work hard to get ahead,
you've got to feel safe in your family and your home.
You've got to be able to know your kids are
going to get well educated, world class education. You've got
to know that your parents can access health care. So
you know, that's the work of the government and that's
our job, and that's what we're working so hard around.
And that's what as you know in the past when
(09:24):
we've seen keyw weis leave and vote with their fees
because they don't think there is opportunity. We have to
build that back for New Zealand and we are going
to do that, and damn it, we are working really
hard to make sure we do exactly that. On the
Order to General report and the Immigration to be I
haven't read the detail of all of that, but I
would just say, yeah, that is not looking good. We
need to ensure we retain and attract these skilled people.
(09:46):
We know that skilled migrant care is key part of that.
But clearly with that report that's saying that's not working.
And I know Erica Stanford, as our Immigration Minister, is
reviewing those settings. He's made changes already to their credit
employer work visa settings earlier in the year, so there's
a lot more for us to do.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Clearly, I'm almost out of time. But speaking of Erica,
there's a court case in Australia that rule the faith
based organizations are not responsible for child sexual abuse and
certain circumstances in terms of payment in later years, given
we're dealing with the same thing, are you going to
make faith based organizations pay? And if so, how.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Yeah, we are, because they need to be completely stand
up and own what they did.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
And if they go to court and they get the
same decision in New Zealand as they got in Australia,
what are you going to do then?
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Well, I think it'd be pretty dumb if they go
to court, to be honest, because they have a responsibility
of We've written a letter to them all and frankly
we're expecting them to show up and actually work through
the redress process and make significant contributions and own their
own their history as well. So I'm pretty tough on
that in the sense of my expectations are pretty non negotiable.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
There appreciate time. Christopher Luck's a Prime Minister. For more
from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to News Talks
at B from six a m. Weekdays, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
Christoph Luxan back in the country of course, and was
there for yesterday Shenanigans. He's well, that's very good morning
to you.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Good morning, Mike, good with you.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hell I actualanged Jones on earlier on standing orders, and
I saw him in the house yesterday. And so they've
got two things, as far as I can work out,
one the Privileges Committee, whether anything is done out of
the mess last week, and two standing orders. Would you
back Jones slash Brownly on looking at standing orders to
try and tidy this place up.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Yes, yeah, absolutely, In fact we've already done that, supporting
asking that through a letter to the Speaker, I think
yesterday as well. I mean, the challenge here is you've
got to have some rules in Parliament that mean that
you can have a debate and a discussion on difficult
issues of which there will be strong feelings on all
sides of a debate, without it just degenerating into sort
of chaos. And so you know, that's the challenge back
(00:47):
to the Speaker, who's the head of the legislature here.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
In his land.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
I run the executive, he runs the legislature, and we've
got to make sure that we're getting standing orders and
rules within the Parliament so that you can facilitate difficult
debates and conversations without degenerating into what we saw last Thursday.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Problem is that I put to Shane Jones and he
didn't have an answer. What is it standing orders can
do that is actually effective?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Well, that's the challenge we're putting back to the Speaker
to say, look, you know we've always had these rules
that are operational within Parliament, and how do we make
sure that they are enforceable, that they're the right rule
for the situations we encounter from time to time in
Parliament today and are they tough enough and are there
you are they strong enough and so to deal with
(01:31):
you know, the conversations we're going to have going forward
and we have already. So you just there's got to
be respect for some rules because otherwise a democracy, you know,
you've got to be able to have proper conversations in
a parliament without it just degenerating. And you know, fisty
cuffs ultimately is what you see in some other parliaments
around the world, and you know, we just don't need
any of that. We just need to say, look, it's
a good time for us to review it. We've got
(01:54):
a new generation of politicians in the Parliament, but we
equally people have to respect the rules.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Is there a role for the Religious Committee? And to
the extent that they have incredible power, theoretically they never
use it, should they?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Yes, it's ultimately again a decision for the Speaker and
really as Prime Minister running the executive I can't really
comment too much about that because it's really his decision.
But that's why you know, we as a National Party
for example, wrote to him to say, look, you know,
we need to revisit what's going on because we can't
have disruptions like that when we're trying to Yeah, I
(02:28):
appreciate people feel strongly about it, but there's still rules.
Otherwise you just never get anything done. If that's just
how it degenerates.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
So what's your view? What's your view of what this
country has looked like to the world in the last
week with all the loveries sharing it on social media
going yes, queen look at New Zealand, go do we
look good or do we look bad?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Look? I don't.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
I mean, I've been just come back from Apec and
to be honest, it wasn't raised with me by any
of the leaders, and I'm not sure they actually saw it,
to be honest, I know we very sense.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
To believe they didn't because of according to where hundreds
of millions of people all over the world apparently have
seen it.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah. Well look, I mean there's no doubt about it.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Like it's a It's an emosive issue of which there
are strong views on all sides around treaty. There always
has been in New Zealand and there always will be.
But the key thing is that in the arch of
our history we keep wrestling with it. I just think
you know, what I've said to you and others is
that you know, the bottom line for us as a
national party is I just don't think the Treaty Principal's
Bill's quite a simplistic way to sort of at a
(03:30):
stroke of a pen.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
You've said that about a home and we shall sometimes.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Yeah, but we should pick up the issues like we
have around unwinding co governance and public services, around three
wards of the Maori Health Authority or MECCA or the
Marii Wards. That's what we've been doing. You take an
issue by issue, case by case, and your way through it.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
I just don't think this well there was money. Yeah,
that was my next question. How much of the protest
do you reckon was about the Principal's bill versus the
other stuff that you have engineered that Mauri feel agreed about.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
I'm sure there was a piece of it.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
I mean, it did seem to be pretty focused on
the treaty Principal's bill, and you know that was the
dominant conversation from what I could pick up what people
were articulating. The reality is, you know, we have been elected.
We've come to power because we want to be able
to improve outcomes from Maria and non Maori. And you
know there has been as I said this morning till
another media outlet like we haven't had a conversation about that,
(04:20):
only twelve percent of our Maori students are where they
need to be going to high school on mathematics.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
We had done a hell of a lot of emergency housing.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
The you know, the any statue want they they're not
interested in that. They're the retention seekers that unless you
give them the keys to the country, they're not interested
because that's what they're after, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Well, I mean I do think they'd become incredibly separate
us in recent years and that's been a change in
the shift from the mighty Party of old that John
Key could work with versus one that we have today.
But you know, that's the thing is, you know, frankly,
you know, when you take a step back, Marty want
higher incomes, they want better housing, they want to be
less victims of crime, they want better school attendance, next
demic outcomes daily time.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
But giving them the keys to the country so they
can run their own country and their own parliament and
their own world, that's what they want. Yeah, well that
doesn't work because what we need to tell so in
the ensuing period it's up to you to either do
something as Prime Minister or give up, because never the
Twain shall meet. I mean, what you saw yesterday was
(05:22):
not a discussion. It's not a debate. There's no nuance,
there's no subtlety. They don't care, they're not interested. They
want the keys to the country. And then given they're
not going to get it, where do we go.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Yeah, well we're not going to get it because it's
not going to pass, it's not going to come law.
So but the bigger issue is that's what we should
be focused on. As you know, That's why I said, EO,
the economy, the public services, the law and order, that's
the agenda for New Zealand, whether you're Maori or non Mandy,
because it turns out we all want the same things.
And you know, that's my conversation with EWE leaders is
you know, why aren't we having more of those conversations,
(05:55):
And in fact we are. You know, behind the scenes,
there's been some incredible work done on social housing where
EWE government and business have come together to sort out
how we get pre built homes onto places and to
places that we need to get them to. And that's
exactly the kind of conversations we need to be having.
What are we going to do about lifting Maori educational
achievement health outcomes? We need higher immunization rates for Mari
(06:17):
under two year olds, as we do across the whole country, frankly,
but we also need that amongst the Maori community as well,
so that they want the same things as all Kiwis.
And honestly, the last six years their outcomes went backwards
under a so called labor government with a much vaunted
Malti caucus. They didn't deliver.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
They did not.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Deliver part of the problem. You need to get onto
the wait Tangi Tribunal. You keep saying you're going to
look at it, but you haven't. Last week they allegedly
forced the Health Ministry to release unredacted reports. What gives
them the right to do that? And doesn't that add
to the ongoing problem and belief that the Waitangi Tribunal,
if not the courts, are just an outlet for aggrieved mari.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Yes, so, I mean we try and work with them
in good faith as best we possibly can. But look,
we campaigned on a set of policies and we're elected
to implement them, and you know that they can. You know,
there's a legitimate you know, as I said to you before,
there's there's a legitimate question whether you're on all sides
of that debate that having worked our way through the
vast majority of treaty settlements, which is what the way
(07:18):
Tania Tribunal was really set up to deal with in
a post settlement world, you've actually got a legitimate question
to ask about what should their role. You're going to
do something, Well, we'll get there, but we've got forty
three sections.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
I'm trying to know.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Well, no, I'm trying to well, no disrespect, I've had
twelve months in this job. I've had four quarterly plans.
I work and pick the actions we're going to go
forward with.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Each one will get is causing part of the problem.
Every second day I'm listening to the White Tangi Tribunal
whine on about another report and another issue in another problem,
in another case that goes nowhere but causes the angst
that leads to what we've seen in the past week.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Yeah, so trust me, we'll get there, we'll deal with it.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
But right now, the quarter unfocused on is the one
to December thirty one, where I've got forty three actions
to get nailed, including gang patches and getting all that
stuff operationalized and some other things. When we do it,
we'll open it up, we'll deal with it properly, and
we'll work our way through it. But for right now, yeah,
I've got to focus on some other things, to get
the economy moving, to get law and order better, to
get better.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Public services, education in particular. So you know we'll get that.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
But there is a genuinely legitimate question. I don't care
which side of the debate you're on, you know that
is I think of you. That's how by many people.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
On your radar. The skills visa numbers that came out
the other day, barely over one percent of applications of
people coming to this country a skills visa. The Order
to General says, we've got to improve that process. We've
got to improve and make it slicker, but we're also
get to get more than two percent. Who the hell
are the people coming into the country. Yeah, look at
the ninety eight people coming into the country. You aren't
you worried about that? Given them most of the people
(08:51):
are leaving the country are young, bright people, and they're
off to Australia, if not Europe.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Yeah, well, I mean first and foremost, that's what That's exactly.
The point is that, you know, I kind of want
my kids and my grandkids ultimately to stay here in
his own because I think it's a place of opportunity.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
That.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Yeah, and that's why I'm saying we've got to work
hard on rebuilding economis. If you work hard to get ahead,
you've got to feel safe in your family and your home.
You've got to be able to know your kids are
going to get well educated, world class education. You've got
to know that your parents can access health care. So
you know, that's the work of the government and that's
our job, and that's what we're working so hard around.
And that's what as you know in the past when
(09:24):
we've seen keyw weis leave and vote with their fees
because they don't think there is opportunity. We have to
build that back for New Zealand and we are going
to do that, and damn it, we are working really
hard to make sure we do exactly that. On the
Order to General report and the Immigration to be I
haven't read the detail of all of that, but I
would just say, yeah, that is not looking good. We
need to ensure we retain and attract these skilled people.
(09:46):
We know that skilled migrant care is key part of that.
But clearly with that report that's saying that's not working.
And I know Erica Stanford, as our Immigration Minister, is
reviewing those settings. He's made changes already to their credit
employer work visa settings earlier in the year, so there's
a lot more for us to do.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Clearly, I'm almost out of time. But speaking of Erica,
there's a court case in Australia that rule the faith
based organizations are not responsible for child sexual abuse and
certain circumstances in terms of payment in later years, given
we're dealing with the same thing, are you going to
make faith based organizations pay? And if so, how.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Yeah, we are, because they need to be completely stand
up and own what they did.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
And if they go to court and they get the
same decision in New Zealand as they got in Australia,
what are you going to do then?
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Well, I think it'd be pretty dumb if they go
to court, to be honest, because they have a responsibility
of We've written a letter to them all and frankly
we're expecting them to show up and actually work through
the redress process and make significant contributions and own their
own their history as well. So I'm pretty tough on
that in the sense of my expectations are pretty non negotiable.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
There appreciate time. Christopher Luck's a Prime Minister. For more
from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to News Talks
at B from six a m. Weekdays, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
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