September 23, 2025 • 7 mins
Nicola Willis admits the economy isn't where the Government would like it to be.
The Herald's annual Mood of the Boardroom survey shows business leaders are less optimistic about the economy than they were a year ago.
Only a third of respondents back the Government's current growth agenda.
The Finance Minister told Mike Hosking they're hearing the call for harder, faster action, loud and clear.
She says business leaders broadly think the Government's doing the right things, but she accepts the Government isn't there yet when it comes to economic growth.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
As part of the mood of the boardroom, business leaders
rank and ministers out of five. Education Immigration Minister Erica
Stamford tops out at four point three add as we
told you, Christopher lux And slipped to fifteenth to two
point nine six. Finance Minister Nikola Willis came in thirteenth
on three point zero nine, and Nicola Willis is with
us good morning.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Good morning mate.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
So we look at the scores out of five. What's
the line for you, I mean, between this being a
game versus being real? Do you take a message in
this or not?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Well? I do because I'm someone who's always studied my
report cards hard and I always strive to be better
and for New Zealand, we need our businesses to be
succeeding in order to get the jobs and income growth
that we want to see. So what our business leaders
are saying matters to me. Now, if this is one
hundred and fifty people, we serve five million people. So
(00:46):
of course we also have to be thinking about a
broader range of interests. But certainly I'm interested in what
business has to say.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Why are you thirteen not one?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Well, I think we're coming through a really difficult recovery.
I am the person responsible for getting us through that,
and I think until New Zealanders feel like that economic
recovery is behind us somewhere in the growth up swing,
they're going to continue looking at me saying have you
done enough to fix it? So I take responsibility for
(01:16):
both getting us through this cyclical downturn we've been in,
but also putting us on a higher track for productivity growth.
And I accept that people haven't seen all of that yet,
and they want to see it. They're impatient, they're frustrated.
In some cases. I share their impatience. I share their
desire to get this economy going, and we will let
(01:37):
the results speak. When the results speak.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Well, that's the problem. There aren't enough results, hence the
headline mood shift on Willis's growth push. You've failed to
this point, haven't you.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Well? When I look at what business are telling us
they want us to do, I'm convinced we are doing
the right things. And so if you think about the
fast track regime, you think about the push to reduce regulation,
even just yesterday our Holidays Act changes, you think about education,
none of these things are going to happen overnight, but
(02:09):
we are doing the reforms that people have told us
are necessary, attracting that overseas investment, ensuring that our science
system is smarter, making sure that the infrastructure pipeline has
a bit more of a ten to twenty year view.
You know, we have for the first time put out
twenty year health infrastructure plans, ten year education infrastructure plan.
(02:30):
These are the things that people tell us they want
to see. And there are some real bright spots in
this report, Mike. You know, Erica Stanford's outstanding work and
education is recognized. Chris Bishop's work on the resource management
system is recognized. The stewardship that Mark Mitchell has provided
of the police, that Simeon Brown has provided of the
health system, they're recognized. So it's not all doom and gloom,
(02:54):
and I still think on the right track.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
No it is not. And I can counter that by
simply saying, if you look at the opposition, their school
is even worse than don't look ready for government and
all that sort of thing. But what worries me, and
I've said this to you and the Prime Minister many
many times, is that beyond the politics, there are some
of us who are actually quite desperate to see this
country do better, and we were promised a story in
twenty twenty five that simply hasn't eventuated. And that view
(03:16):
is reflected in this morning's report, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah, But you've also see in that report some really
positive things, businesses saying they're going to be investing more
over the next twelve months than they have of the
previous twelve months. You see that recognition from Cambergray, who's
an independent economist, saying, look, the reality is that when
you fall from the dizzy heights of a sugar high
led by government high, government's bending, then there is a
(03:41):
come down. And all of those things are true. So
we see that the changes that we are making have
been helpful and tail ones for growth rather than head
ones for growth. Except but we accept we're not there yet.
We're absolutely pushing to get there faster. And what I
read in this report card is business broadly think the
(04:02):
government's doing the right things. They want us going fast, harder.
And I'll tell you who agrees with that. That's the
Prime Minister, and he's driving each of his ministers hard
on that agenda.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Are the matters the RB governors today?
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yes, I'm looking forward to that announcement, is she good.
I can tell you that the person whose gender will
be obvious when they stand up as of extremely high caliber.
They are of international standing, with huge experience, and I
have complete confidence they'll have a capability.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Only reason why I asked that is making a female
thing still a thing, given that females do whatever they
want to do. And the more we make oh, it's
a female, the more we're insulting people who actually do
quite well who happen to be female.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Well as a woman who's in a senior role that
isn't always occupied by women. What I want people to
understand is I'm in that role because I'm the best
person for the job. My gender is secondary, and I
certainly expect that from any senior appointment to a role
so critically important. It shouldn't be seen simply through the
(05:05):
lens of someone's gender. It should be seen through their
capability and skills. But there's another thing, Mike, that I
will say is that I tell you, for my daughter
and for many women around the country, they do quietly
say to me, Look, it makes a difference for us
to see you as a woman doing that job, because
it tells us that there's no space we can't occupy exactly,
(05:27):
So that.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Remins on balance. Is it a good thing? This is
like the All Blacks coach? Is it a good thing
that we've got somebody from off shore that they can
see New Zealand as a genuine opportunity and we can
still attract really world class talent versus oh, why didn't
we get a New Zealander.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Well, I've resolutely not commented on who it is yet,
but what is really encouraging is that there were candidates
of international caliber for this role, which tells us that
they still view one our Reserve Bank as being of
good internetion, standing and reputation, and two that they see
(06:03):
New Zealand as a place that they would like to
live and associate their reputation with. So the fact that
we had such outstanding candidates I think is a very
positive thing.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Look forward to it. Nicoloilis who is the Economic Growth
and Finance Minister? Of course, just to summarize what broadly
speaking you said in this CEO survey, councils are broken.
I think we'd all agree with that. The number one
issue is energy price increases seven point one percent. That's
right up, It's the number one issue the cost of
doing business in terms of energy, and the government need
(06:34):
to move on that dire I use the word nuclear
and just waste my time. But nevertheless, and a stronger
long term vision is what they want. They mark Luxan
on a whole bunch of individual sort of things, maintains
coalition cohesion, keeps cabinet colleagues focused on delivery. He scores
very well in that, and it's sort of divergent if
you want to get into the weeds. His number overall
(06:55):
isn't great, but when you look at what he's doing
in the individual area, he scores quite well. So I
don't know how the CEOs square that circle. For more
from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to news talks.
It'd be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
As part of the mood of the boardroom, business leaders
rank and ministers out of five. Education Immigration Minister Erica
Stamford tops out at four point three add as we
told you, Christopher lux And slipped to fifteenth to two
point nine six. Finance Minister Nikola Willis came in thirteenth
on three point zero nine, and Nicola Willis is with
us good morning.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Good morning mate.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
So we look at the scores out of five. What's
the line for you, I mean, between this being a
game versus being real? Do you take a message in
this or not?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Well? I do because I'm someone who's always studied my
report cards hard and I always strive to be better
and for New Zealand, we need our businesses to be
succeeding in order to get the jobs and income growth
that we want to see. So what our business leaders
are saying matters to me. Now, if this is one
hundred and fifty people, we serve five million people. So
(00:46):
of course we also have to be thinking about a
broader range of interests. But certainly I'm interested in what
business has to say.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Why are you thirteen not one?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Well, I think we're coming through a really difficult recovery.
I am the person responsible for getting us through that,
and I think until New Zealanders feel like that economic
recovery is behind us somewhere in the growth up swing,
they're going to continue looking at me saying have you
done enough to fix it? So I take responsibility for
(01:16):
both getting us through this cyclical downturn we've been in,
but also putting us on a higher track for productivity growth.
And I accept that people haven't seen all of that yet,
and they want to see it. They're impatient, they're frustrated.
In some cases. I share their impatience. I share their
desire to get this economy going, and we will let
(01:37):
the results speak. When the results speak.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Well, that's the problem. There aren't enough results, hence the
headline mood shift on Willis's growth push. You've failed to
this point, haven't you.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Well? When I look at what business are telling us
they want us to do, I'm convinced we are doing
the right things. And so if you think about the
fast track regime, you think about the push to reduce regulation,
even just yesterday our Holidays Act changes, you think about education,
none of these things are going to happen overnight, but
(02:09):
we are doing the reforms that people have told us
are necessary, attracting that overseas investment, ensuring that our science
system is smarter, making sure that the infrastructure pipeline has
a bit more of a ten to twenty year view.
You know, we have for the first time put out
twenty year health infrastructure plans, ten year education infrastructure plan.
(02:30):
These are the things that people tell us they want
to see. And there are some real bright spots in
this report, Mike. You know, Erica Stanford's outstanding work and
education is recognized. Chris Bishop's work on the resource management
system is recognized. The stewardship that Mark Mitchell has provided
of the police, that Simeon Brown has provided of the
health system, they're recognized. So it's not all doom and gloom,
(02:54):
and I still think on the right track.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
No it is not. And I can counter that by
simply saying, if you look at the opposition, their school
is even worse than don't look ready for government and
all that sort of thing. But what worries me, and
I've said this to you and the Prime Minister many
many times, is that beyond the politics, there are some
of us who are actually quite desperate to see this
country do better, and we were promised a story in
twenty twenty five that simply hasn't eventuated. And that view
(03:16):
is reflected in this morning's report, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah, But you've also see in that report some really
positive things, businesses saying they're going to be investing more
over the next twelve months than they have of the
previous twelve months. You see that recognition from Cambergray, who's
an independent economist, saying, look, the reality is that when
you fall from the dizzy heights of a sugar high
led by government high, government's bending, then there is a
(03:41):
come down. And all of those things are true. So
we see that the changes that we are making have
been helpful and tail ones for growth rather than head
ones for growth. Except but we accept we're not there yet.
We're absolutely pushing to get there faster. And what I
read in this report card is business broadly think the
(04:02):
government's doing the right things. They want us going fast, harder.
And I'll tell you who agrees with that. That's the
Prime Minister, and he's driving each of his ministers hard
on that agenda.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Are the matters the RB governors today?
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yes, I'm looking forward to that announcement, is she good.
I can tell you that the person whose gender will
be obvious when they stand up as of extremely high caliber.
They are of international standing, with huge experience, and I
have complete confidence they'll have a capability.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Only reason why I asked that is making a female
thing still a thing, given that females do whatever they
want to do. And the more we make oh, it's
a female, the more we're insulting people who actually do
quite well who happen to be female.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Well as a woman who's in a senior role that
isn't always occupied by women. What I want people to
understand is I'm in that role because I'm the best
person for the job. My gender is secondary, and I
certainly expect that from any senior appointment to a role
so critically important. It shouldn't be seen simply through the
(05:05):
lens of someone's gender. It should be seen through their
capability and skills. But there's another thing, Mike, that I
will say is that I tell you, for my daughter
and for many women around the country, they do quietly
say to me, Look, it makes a difference for us
to see you as a woman doing that job, because
it tells us that there's no space we can't occupy exactly,
(05:27):
So that.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Remins on balance. Is it a good thing? This is
like the All Blacks coach? Is it a good thing
that we've got somebody from off shore that they can
see New Zealand as a genuine opportunity and we can
still attract really world class talent versus oh, why didn't
we get a New Zealander.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Well, I've resolutely not commented on who it is yet,
but what is really encouraging is that there were candidates
of international caliber for this role, which tells us that
they still view one our Reserve Bank as being of
good internetion, standing and reputation, and two that they see
(06:03):
New Zealand as a place that they would like to
live and associate their reputation with. So the fact that
we had such outstanding candidates I think is a very
positive thing.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Look forward to it. Nicoloilis who is the Economic Growth
and Finance Minister? Of course, just to summarize what broadly
speaking you said in this CEO survey, councils are broken.
I think we'd all agree with that. The number one
issue is energy price increases seven point one percent. That's
right up, It's the number one issue the cost of
doing business in terms of energy, and the government need
(06:34):
to move on that dire I use the word nuclear
and just waste my time. But nevertheless, and a stronger
long term vision is what they want. They mark Luxan
on a whole bunch of individual sort of things, maintains
coalition cohesion, keeps cabinet colleagues focused on delivery. He scores
very well in that, and it's sort of divergent if
you want to get into the weeds. His number overall
(06:55):
isn't great, but when you look at what he's doing
in the individual area, he scores quite well. So I
don't know how the CEOs square that circle. For more
from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to news talks.
It'd be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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