August 27, 2024 • 8 mins
Labour would re-instate a ban on oil and gas exploration if it got back into power.
The Government is reversing the ban, despite belief from opponents there's no reserves left to be found.
It also plans to make it easier import Liquefied Natural Gas, aiming to boost energy supplies.
Labour leader Chris Hipkins says New Zealand has an abundance of renewable electricity options that should be pushed.
"What this Government is doing - they're saying that they're going to go back to oil and gas. That's saying to renewable electricity producers that they don't think that's the way of the future. That sends the markets the wrong signal."
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The government's calling on Labor Party to support what they're
trying to do to fix the electricity sector, including bringing
back oil and gas exploration. Now, the reason that this
is important is because as long as the Labor Party
threatens to bring that ban back when they're back in government,
the industry will not come back. Chris Hopkins is the
Labor leader and with us now, hub.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Sure, how are you and well, thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Are you going to bring the band back?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
And we said that we're opposed to the removal of
the oil and gas that you know, the ban on
new oil and gas exploration offshore, and we would reinstate
that again. We've got an abundance of renewable electricity opportunities
in New Zealand. There's literally thousands of megawatts of our
new renewable electricity generation already contented. We should be building
(00:43):
that now and we wouldn't have an energy shortage.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Yeah, but they're not building it right, So we need
the gas, don't we Do you accept that we need
the gas?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
But Humply is actually if you talk to the people
building renewable at the electricity, I'll say that the burning
of fossil fuelds is one of the things that disincentivizes
the investment to renewables. So what you got to do
is you've got to ask the question, if there's thousands
of megawatts already of renewable electricity consented that could be
built faster than thermal, you know, faster than gas side stuff,
(01:11):
why isn't the market building it now? What do we
do though, same because the market's broken. The market's prioritizing.
See when Huntly charges those exorbitant prices for peak electricity,
what that does is it actually drives drives out the
incentives to build new renewable electricity. It's distorting the market.
So we need to be making sure that we're dealing
(01:33):
with that problem because the electric if you're if you're operatingly,
your incentive is to just maximize the profit. The market
works at the moment. That the problem.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
If people were in government for six years, why didn't
you see that the stuff was being built?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Well, if you look at it, there's actually been a
big increase in the last couple of years. But we're
making up for the fact that for about ten years
the market wasn't building. Now it has started building in life,
when did it start the last couple of In the
last couple of years, the last two years or so,
there's actually been a big upswing in the amount of
new renewable electricity generation coming on stream.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
And what did you do to make them build it?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Well, one of the things we were doing was making
sure that it was consented, and you know, there's thousands
of megabats of it that has been consented. But actually
that we don't guess bad that the signals that the
government was sending and saying we don't think that fossil
fuels are the answer, actually helped to give the market
certainty to invest in the renewable electricity generation. What this
government are doing is by saying that they're going to
(02:32):
go back to oil and gas, they're actually saying to
renewable electricity producers that they don't think that that's the
way of the future. And I think that's in the
markets the wrong signals.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
So what do we do when the sun doesn't shine
and the wind doesn't blow and we haven't got enough
water in the dams At that point, we need fossil fuels, don't.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
We Well no, not necessarily, Well, what would we do?
The question, Well, the question becomes how you store it,
and how you use electricity.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
And how you mealy and how do you store it.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
You can do we can do things like pump hydro
the current government, are you talking about.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
That stupid Lake Onslow idea?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Again, lake Consol was one vary into pump hydro, but
pump hydro is actually used quite commonly around the world
as as a way of storing electricity.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
This is not listen. I mean, this is so frustrating
because it's like the last six years didn't happen. Did
you not listen to the industry who said that when
you guys suggested an idea as dumb as like as
Lake Onslow, that is what stopped people building any more. Generation.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
When when you're talking about people in the industry saying that,
you're talking about the generation retailers, Yeah, who don't like
the idea. They don't like the idea of some kind
of battery, which is what is one of the options
to achieve battery. They don't like that because, come on,
billion dollars in profits, you cannot tell me you are
(03:54):
going to argue in favor of making bigger profits over
increasing supplies.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
That's fine, might agree on that, right, we may agree
on that, but it's not going to change the fundamentals
of how this market works. You cannot tell me that
you guys, when you're re elected, are going to go
on and do exactly the same thing that you did
last time and just put us back in this hole again.
Is that what you're going to do.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
When you're asking different questions, you're asking what the alternatives
are to using gas as a peak electricity source, And
what I'm saying is we need more energy storage in
New Zealand. Onslow is only one of the ways that
we can achieve that. There are other ways of achieving that.
I'm PRIORROI, even on a smaller scale, is one of
the ways that you could look at achieving that. There
are a range of other options. Geos Thermal has more
(04:37):
potential to act as a peak electricity source, and we
haven't explored the potential for it to do that. And
that's a much better alternative than gas because you can
capture the carbon probit and it's not as the planet
doesn't damage our climate change targets as much. So you know, ultimately,
the problem that we've got now is that the market
has prioritized dividence and profits and we're talking about billions
(04:59):
and billions and billions of dollars over investing in a
new generation because profits.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Betiful totals to what we're talking about supply.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
No, it's not to be. If you increase supply, you
lower the pride. They don't want to lower the pride.
I don't want a constrained supply because that's how they
makes up profit.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
You know that there are businesses closing because of what
you guys did when you were in government, and you're
basically at the moment by not wanting to back away
from this band, you're basically putting the climate ahead of
these jobs.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Absolute bollocks. Should know better than that. The reason that
we haven't shortage of guess is because for the last
twenty odd years we haven't found any that's not true.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
That true, Chris, Chris in twenty twenty true Chris in
twenty twenty. OMV found gas at two toui. That's four
years ago.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
And they found that it was an economics to ebstract it.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
They haven't even had a proper look at it commercially.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
They didn't find a commissionable.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Again said, and you can tell me if the situation
has changed. But they said it is a significant discovery.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
So they had the permit, they could have drilled it.
They chose not to because they decided it wasn't commercial.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
They chose, you know why it's not commercially viable because
you people banned oil and gas exploration. That's why it's
not commercially viable. And because you people put one hundred
percent renewable target on our electricity market.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
That's not that's a ridiculous fact.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
That is that's fact.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
That is what they say, any existing permits. We didn't
cancel any existing permits. You did who had those crisps.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
But then in conjuncture.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Them and development, they chose not to chris.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
In conjunction with the band, you also then set a
target of one hundred percent renewable electricity, right, which means
we were going to phase our gas. So why would
they get the gas out of there?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
I mean, ultimately, what's your sensitive tw one hundred percent?
One hundred percent renewable is what we're going to have
to do. Mean, the climate commitments that the previous national
government signed.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Us up there you go right there, you've put climate
ahead of jobs even.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Well, mean, how many jobs we're going to have if
we don't tackle climate change and the planet becomes unlivered.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
How many jobs are were going to have if you
keep on going down this path and trying to run
us into the ground, into some third world electricity status.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Well, running us into the ground will mean it'd be
more in climate change.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Chris, tell me this right now, Chris, I don't want
to make assumptions here because of this. Tell me this
right now. What's more important to you those two hundred
and thirty jobs at Winstone or the climate both. You
can't have both, mates, You just told me you can't
have both. Which one do you want?
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Why were many of those big plants, Many of those
big industrial plants were built where they were built because
they were located near to renewable electricity sources. The p
problem is the market's now become so distorted that that
renewable electricity isn't providing them with the check electricity that
they've had previously because of the way the peak market's working.
(07:55):
It's the market if there's a market failing here, but
there is a debundance of renewable electricity.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Thank you for coming on the show. I always appreciate
having a chat to you. Chris. It's Chris Hopkins, labor Leader.
For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to
news talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
The government's calling on Labor Party to support what they're
trying to do to fix the electricity sector, including bringing
back oil and gas exploration. Now, the reason that this
is important is because as long as the Labor Party
threatens to bring that ban back when they're back in government,
the industry will not come back. Chris Hopkins is the
Labor leader and with us now, hub.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Sure, how are you and well, thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Are you going to bring the band back?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
And we said that we're opposed to the removal of
the oil and gas that you know, the ban on
new oil and gas exploration offshore, and we would reinstate
that again. We've got an abundance of renewable electricity opportunities
in New Zealand. There's literally thousands of megawatts of our
new renewable electricity generation already contented. We should be building
(00:43):
that now and we wouldn't have an energy shortage.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Yeah, but they're not building it right, So we need
the gas, don't we Do you accept that we need
the gas?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
But Humply is actually if you talk to the people
building renewable at the electricity, I'll say that the burning
of fossil fuelds is one of the things that disincentivizes
the investment to renewables. So what you got to do
is you've got to ask the question, if there's thousands
of megawatts already of renewable electricity consented that could be
built faster than thermal, you know, faster than gas side stuff,
(01:11):
why isn't the market building it now? What do we
do though, same because the market's broken. The market's prioritizing.
See when Huntly charges those exorbitant prices for peak electricity,
what that does is it actually drives drives out the
incentives to build new renewable electricity. It's distorting the market.
So we need to be making sure that we're dealing
(01:33):
with that problem because the electric if you're if you're operatingly,
your incentive is to just maximize the profit. The market
works at the moment. That the problem.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
If people were in government for six years, why didn't
you see that the stuff was being built?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Well, if you look at it, there's actually been a
big increase in the last couple of years. But we're
making up for the fact that for about ten years
the market wasn't building. Now it has started building in life,
when did it start the last couple of In the
last couple of years, the last two years or so,
there's actually been a big upswing in the amount of
new renewable electricity generation coming on stream.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
And what did you do to make them build it?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Well, one of the things we were doing was making
sure that it was consented, and you know, there's thousands
of megabats of it that has been consented. But actually
that we don't guess bad that the signals that the
government was sending and saying we don't think that fossil
fuels are the answer, actually helped to give the market
certainty to invest in the renewable electricity generation. What this
government are doing is by saying that they're going to
(02:32):
go back to oil and gas, they're actually saying to
renewable electricity producers that they don't think that that's the
way of the future. And I think that's in the
markets the wrong signals.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
So what do we do when the sun doesn't shine
and the wind doesn't blow and we haven't got enough
water in the dams At that point, we need fossil fuels, don't.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
We Well no, not necessarily, Well, what would we do?
The question, Well, the question becomes how you store it,
and how you use electricity.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
And how you mealy and how do you store it.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
You can do we can do things like pump hydro
the current government, are you talking about.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
That stupid Lake Onslow idea?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Again, lake Consol was one vary into pump hydro, but
pump hydro is actually used quite commonly around the world
as as a way of storing electricity.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
This is not listen. I mean, this is so frustrating
because it's like the last six years didn't happen. Did
you not listen to the industry who said that when
you guys suggested an idea as dumb as like as
Lake Onslow, that is what stopped people building any more. Generation.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
When when you're talking about people in the industry saying that,
you're talking about the generation retailers, Yeah, who don't like
the idea. They don't like the idea of some kind
of battery, which is what is one of the options
to achieve battery. They don't like that because, come on,
billion dollars in profits, you cannot tell me you are
(03:54):
going to argue in favor of making bigger profits over
increasing supplies.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
That's fine, might agree on that, right, we may agree
on that, but it's not going to change the fundamentals
of how this market works. You cannot tell me that
you guys, when you're re elected, are going to go
on and do exactly the same thing that you did
last time and just put us back in this hole again.
Is that what you're going to do.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
When you're asking different questions, you're asking what the alternatives
are to using gas as a peak electricity source, And
what I'm saying is we need more energy storage in
New Zealand. Onslow is only one of the ways that
we can achieve that. There are other ways of achieving that.
I'm PRIORROI, even on a smaller scale, is one of
the ways that you could look at achieving that. There
are a range of other options. Geos Thermal has more
(04:37):
potential to act as a peak electricity source, and we
haven't explored the potential for it to do that. And
that's a much better alternative than gas because you can
capture the carbon probit and it's not as the planet
doesn't damage our climate change targets as much. So you know, ultimately,
the problem that we've got now is that the market
has prioritized dividence and profits and we're talking about billions
(04:59):
and billions and billions of dollars over investing in a
new generation because profits.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Betiful totals to what we're talking about supply.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
No, it's not to be. If you increase supply, you
lower the pride. They don't want to lower the pride.
I don't want a constrained supply because that's how they
makes up profit.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
You know that there are businesses closing because of what
you guys did when you were in government, and you're
basically at the moment by not wanting to back away
from this band, you're basically putting the climate ahead of
these jobs.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Absolute bollocks. Should know better than that. The reason that
we haven't shortage of guess is because for the last
twenty odd years we haven't found any that's not true.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
That true, Chris, Chris in twenty twenty true Chris in
twenty twenty. OMV found gas at two toui. That's four
years ago.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
And they found that it was an economics to ebstract it.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
They haven't even had a proper look at it commercially.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
They didn't find a commissionable.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Again said, and you can tell me if the situation
has changed. But they said it is a significant discovery.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
So they had the permit, they could have drilled it.
They chose not to because they decided it wasn't commercial.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
They chose, you know why it's not commercially viable because
you people banned oil and gas exploration. That's why it's
not commercially viable. And because you people put one hundred
percent renewable target on our electricity market.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
That's not that's a ridiculous fact.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
That is that's fact.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
That is what they say, any existing permits. We didn't
cancel any existing permits. You did who had those crisps.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
But then in conjuncture.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Them and development, they chose not to chris.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
In conjunction with the band, you also then set a
target of one hundred percent renewable electricity, right, which means
we were going to phase our gas. So why would
they get the gas out of there?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
I mean, ultimately, what's your sensitive tw one hundred percent?
One hundred percent renewable is what we're going to have
to do. Mean, the climate commitments that the previous national
government signed.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Us up there you go right there, you've put climate
ahead of jobs even.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Well, mean, how many jobs we're going to have if
we don't tackle climate change and the planet becomes unlivered.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
How many jobs are were going to have if you
keep on going down this path and trying to run
us into the ground, into some third world electricity status.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Well, running us into the ground will mean it'd be
more in climate change.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Chris, tell me this right now, Chris, I don't want
to make assumptions here because of this. Tell me this
right now. What's more important to you those two hundred
and thirty jobs at Winstone or the climate both. You
can't have both, mates, You just told me you can't
have both. Which one do you want?
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Why were many of those big plants, Many of those
big industrial plants were built where they were built because
they were located near to renewable electricity sources. The p
problem is the market's now become so distorted that that
renewable electricity isn't providing them with the check electricity that
they've had previously because of the way the peak market's working.
(07:55):
It's the market if there's a market failing here, but
there is a debundance of renewable electricity.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Thank you for coming on the show. I always appreciate
having a chat to you. Chris. It's Chris Hopkins, labor Leader.
For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to
news talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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