INTERVIEW: Wendell Pierce On Career Journey, Navigating Your Purpose, NPR, PBS Shutdown, Trump, CLTC + More

Today on The Breakfast Club, Wendell Pierce On Career Journey, Navigating Your Purpose, NPR, PBS Shutdown, Trump, CLTC. Listen For More!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Every day up weak, pack your ass.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
Up the Breakfast Club.

Speaker 1 (00:05):
You don't finish for y'all done.

Speaker 3 (00:07):
Yes, it's the world's most dangerous morning to show to
Breakfast Club. Charlamagne to God, DJ Nvy just hilarious. But
Envy's not here right now. But Laura Lerosa is in
and we got a special guest in the building, the
Great Windell Pierces here.

Speaker 1 (00:19):
Good morning, sorry, good morning, good morning.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
Thanks for having me. This is a real honor. I
finally made it to the Breakfast Club. You know. I
was just feel like you've been on before you No,
this is my first time. This is my first time.
It's a real honor man, you know. Like I was
telling you, I'm a jazz head, you know, so I'm
listening to jazz in the morning and stuff like that.
And it wasn't until I was in London do a

(00:42):
death of a salesman, you know that. The two gentlemen
who played my sons, Everyone's like, you don't know about
the Breakfast Club. I'm like, yeah, I know about it.
I lied and then and then and then they would
turn me on to it. Like every day we got
every I got all my news. That was like my
you know, my associated press was the Breakfast Club, you know,

(01:02):
so so now that was That's why I was joking,
I should come in here with my you know, I
have my I have my little unto rage and you
know that's my bag of cash. Yeah. I love that. Yeah.
So you glad.

Speaker 3 (01:17):
We're glad that you are finally. Yeah, we're glad that
you finally could join us. Man, I wish I could
be there in the studio, but I had to be
out of town this week.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
No, understand, how are you? First of all, I'm good man.
It's been a real busy summer. I've been enjoying myself
because I'm already back to work. Summer ended for me,
uh last week. But it's been great. I've been traveling
a lot. You know. I have discovered Angila great. Oh man,

(01:47):
It's what I call a drop and PLoP. Right, you
drop your bag and you flopped down. Oh man, we're
giving it. We should be given it away, Charlotte Mane.
But then again, they.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
Listen, I've been going. I've been going there for years. Man.
I love it. But it's an island that you go
to if you like to do nothing.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
That's it. That's why drop and PLoP. I love it.
So I've been traveling around and uh, you know, had
a busy summer because I had a lot of films
come out this summer and coming out. So it's good
and back to work already.

Speaker 4 (02:18):
And what I said, I just have to say, for
just for me personally, you do not age hey, like
because I discovered you on the Wire.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
I'm frommost city, so that's right, Baltimore.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
And my favorite show. Like it's one of my favorite cities.
I feel like it's a hometown with mine.

Speaker 4 (02:36):
Yes, yes, but I just want to man, you look
amazing still.

Speaker 3 (02:40):
You just.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
Thank you well. You know they say black don't crack, uh,
so I'm trying to live up to that. Unless you
want crack, unless you want to crack, you know you
will crack. There's always exceptions to that, right. I love Baltimore.
When we were doing the Wire, you know, it was

(03:02):
like this delayed response, so it was like our summer camp.
We would go down work on the Wire, and I
had such a good time there. I saw y'all had
the whole crew, all the criminals side over here, the cops,
the cops. You know, we need our we need respect
to But I would always go to. There was a

(03:23):
club called Choices. I loved Choices and that dance that
whatever that dance was. Man, pop, I looked like the
old man in the club. That's what I was. And
I would go there and they thought I was a
cop because I would put on the suit. Choices was,

(03:43):
you know, it was it was, it was. I went
in with a suit because Choices was. You know, you
didn't you didn't play in Choices. It was a real deal.
It was no TV criminals in there. It was the
real deal sometimes. And so I put on a suit
and everybody I thought I was real. Five Oh you know,
I said, that would keep me safe. Any club you

(04:04):
have to go through two metal detectives where you go in.
You know, it's an issue too too. So I stayed
near the door. But I loved Choices. I love Baltimore.
Baltimore reminded me of New Orleans where I'm from, right
has all the same issues. That has all the beautiful
stuff too, you know, and to this day a city

(04:25):
that I love, have invested in and is a second home.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
When you think about twenty three years and a wire,
what does that mean to you?

Speaker 2 (04:39):
The wire was the Canarian the mind. It was the
thing that let us know that there was going to
be an American decline if we did not take care
of the greatest resource we have in this country, and
that's its people. And the thing that I'm proud of
as an artist is that's the role of artists, not

(04:59):
just entertainment. It's the place where we reflect on who
what thoughts are to the individual, where you think about
who you are, what you want to be, your triumphs,
your failures. That's what art is, you know, And that's
what the show was. It was a place where we
reflect on who we are, what we're doing, our dysfunction, hopefully,
decide what our values are and then act on them.

(05:20):
You know. I was very I was very proud of
what the Wire is, and the Wire is it's a
classic and what makes something classical speaks to people, then
speaks to people now, and it will speak to people
long after we're gone, because it speaks to that common
humanity that we have. You never pass a corner boy
anymore without understanding that he has a full life and

(05:42):
there's a whole story behind him. So I'm very proud
of the Wire, very proud of it.

Speaker 5 (05:46):
What because because you were early on in saying this right,
that the Wire is letting us know what's about to
happen coming. How did you know that then when you
were doing it, and like, you know, even in the
earlier years, because people always ask you about bringing the
Wire back, Yeah, and you've been saying it for some time.

Speaker 2 (06:00):
And I always said, you know, the only thing I
tried to do. I tried to convince them to do
a prequel of the Wire because they always said, y'all
too old, too long in the tooth now, you know,
to be trying to do a sequel. But I said,
we should see how it comes up. And actually I
talked to Sam Samuel Jackson man he was going to

(06:21):
play the folks that that were controlling the towers before
Stringer and av Yeah, Boxdale took over, right who they
that battle for that territory then. So David said, oh yeah, yeah,
that's a good idea. But he always said he was

(06:42):
never going to do it. So it's like a good book.
I knew that it was going to be effective then,
because you saw, you saw, you heard how it impacted people.
I remember one walk I had in Manhattan. I was
walking one time and this little old white lady with
blue hair stop me on the east side. I said,
you know, I love the wire. That's my show. A

(07:04):
little further along, this real sort of military square, drug
guid looked around and said, you know, I love the wire.
You know, really, I can't talk to you right now
because I'm under cover. I'm on the job. Then I
got up to like, wow, I got up to one
hundred and eighteenth Street whatever, and his brother came up
to me. Man, he was looking around just like the
other guys looking around. Said yeah, man, I love the wire.

(07:24):
I can't talk to you right now, but you know
I'm hustling. I'm hustling right. So I was just like
if a hustler and the little blue headed old lady
was still digging the same thing. We were speaking to
our humanity. So that's how I knew that's hownew we would
make an impact.

Speaker 3 (07:40):
Then, yeah, man, I want I'm glad you keep using
that word humanity, right, because how do you ensure each
performance speaks to our humanity and not just the character's story.

Speaker 2 (07:52):
Uh? First of all, good good research. You know, I
learned so much about specifically cops, why someone would become
a cop. Most of African American. This was across the
board man. Most of the cats I met black men
and women who decided to become police officers were from
those neighborhoods. And they said that I grew up with

(08:14):
miss Anne and mister Joe, and ninety nine percent of
the folks are some hard working, you know, working poor
going out there and trying to make it, make a
way out of no way, as we say. And then
they realized, you know, that the crime that was disproportionately
affecting their neighborhood was just like that one percent, and

(08:35):
they knew that they could have an impact on that.
And when you tap into that, that's something that's authentic.
And when something is authentic, it mayn't be something that's
totally different from you from a disparate world, but if
it is truthful, you recognize it. Right. The more universal,
the more specific you are, the more universal your story becomes.

(08:57):
You know, and no matter where you're from, you can
recognize yourself in someone else's story and humanity. That's why
I always say, don't try to dumb something down, or
don't try to make it just appeal to me, or
you think I wouldn't like that Actually, if you're just
truthful to that everybody understands it. You could take you
could take some hardcore kid, you know, from the hood

(09:19):
who's never been you know, traveled outside of his ten
block radius and see, you know, uh, see the story
of uh, you know, uh, the Black Swan, see a
movie like that, and then go, man, I know what
she's going through, right, I can understand how how she
was trying to become something and had this you know,
all these other jealous people trying to keep her down,

(09:42):
and ultimately, you know, she thrived. You know, they recognize
the story that's truthful. So the more authentic and truthful
you are, the more universal what becomes. And the way
you do that is you tap into something that is authentic.
And that was the thing that actually made them right.
Speaking of the wire, I was talking about Black Cops
when the writer said, can I use some of that?

(10:04):
And that's the scene between me and Omar on the
bench because we came from the same neighborhood. We are
of the same neighborhood, and I'm telling him no more bodies.
He understands it. The reason he doesn't say anything is
because he knows I'm right, right, and so that's the
thing that's that's the thing that makes it truthful, and

(10:24):
that's the thing that makes it universal and appealing to people.

Speaker 5 (10:28):
Early on, though, like what did you like how how
were you able to kind of shape yourself? Because you know,
when you first start working in the business, you just
gotta work bills, right, But now knowing you as an actor,
even just seeing you've I can feel the characters you've played,
and like, you know, it becomes like a brand or
almost like a like a reputation for you. Like there's
certain things I just expect you to do and take on.

(10:49):
But early on, like how did you kind of gear
your way into this lane of responsibility, humanity and all things?

Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yeah, so you know, I trained very seriously. You know,
I went to Juilliard and trained four years and all,
and I knew that I wanted to if I work
that hard. I wanted to do television, I wanted to
do film. I wanted to do stage, classically trained actor.
And so I try to be as diverse as possible
every year, do the try effector some stage, television and film. Right.

(11:22):
And I am tri coastal, live in New Orleans, but
I work here in New York. I work in Los Angeles.
I'm on the golf coast, East coast, West coast. People
always say, Wendell Man, hanging there, man, you're gonna be working.
I'm like, I am working man over here, you over there, right,
And so mixing it up like that helps you start

(11:43):
to build a career because work gets you work. Right,
you work with someone, people see it's okay, they appreciate it.
You get another job, then that person says, I want
to work with you again. So work gets you work.
And then also your audience starts to starts to see
that you are consistently really building your characters in a

(12:05):
particular way. So I'm I think my brand, uh would
be as that journeyman actor you know who you know,
that character actor who is an actor of character you know.
And so that's what I pride myself on doing all
sorts of different things, especially at the same time so
you can see the range. You know, I'm playing I'm

(12:26):
on Elsbeth right now as a captain, the police officer,
and at the same time, I'm raising Canaan where I'm
like an old school bank Robert and supplying Canaan with
his with all of his product and uh, and I'm
his bank. I'm in Superman. This summer has been great
a perfect example of that. Thunderbolts started off the summer

(12:48):
first time, and you know, the whole Marvel world. And
then I did Superman, which has just gone around the world.
It's really fantastic. I went to you know, uh to
the opening and the seed. The impact that that that
that franchise has is amazing. And and then later on
I worked with Denzel and Highest to Lowis, which is

(13:09):
coming out next week. So Spike Lee film Spike Lee Joint.
I was one of the assassins. The second time I've
worked with Denzel. I was one of the assassins on
Malcolm X. So it's great to be back with Spike
and Denzel again.

Speaker 4 (13:21):
Man, you work, you're working.

Speaker 2 (13:24):
Trying to get out there, trying to get out there,
you know. You know, I'm that guy that people see
They go, hey man, where do I know you from?
Hey man?

Speaker 1 (13:35):
You know you go to my church.

Speaker 2 (13:41):
Yeah, so that's what happened. So I'm that guy. And
then then they go away and then come back say,
oh man, I'm sorry, I was just looking at you
last night, you know. So it's actually a compliment. It's
actually a compliment when people see you like I feel.

Speaker 3 (13:53):
Like I've never seen you do a role that wasn't
grounded in purpose, that intentional.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
Uh, well, you haven't seen all my stuff I got.
I got some bullshit out there. You know. You can't
you can't do, you can't do. I am celebrating my
fortieth year in the business.

Speaker 1 (14:19):
Man, and wow, congratulations, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 2 (14:22):
It's this month. Actually, yeah, you go back. Just I'm
fortunate that they bombed, right, because you know, just like
work gets you, work bullshit gets you. Bullshit a lot
of times. I'm a stop cursy too, but a lot
of times feel free a lot of time, A lot
of times. A lot of times. The business you know,

(14:46):
they want you to make chicken salad out of chicken ship.
So d I got a lot of chicken ship out there,
you know. But I tried. I tried to I tried
to pick my with purpose. You're absolutely right, because you know,
I want to be able to look back at a
body of work and and and see you know, a

(15:10):
multitude of different roles and uh, you know, tap into
trying to come to an understanding of what this journey
is all about you know, and I'm was motivated to
become an actor by James O. Jones and Roscoe Lee
Brown Julius Harris. You know, those men kind of set

(15:30):
the bar high for me, you know. And for those
of you who don't know who Roscale Lee Brown, James
OL Jones and Julius Harris are you know? Now you've
got a little homework, you know, Google, and you see
that they set the bar high, and I like that diversity.

Speaker 3 (15:48):
Well, well let me ask this then, how do you
stay grounded in purpose while navigating in an industry that
can be performative even even off stage?

Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yes, about what's in important to you? You know, Uh,
recognize what your contribution to the dynamic is going to be,
and be a be a student of your craft. I
tell young actors that all the time. Be a student
of your craft. And employment doesn't define you as an
actor or an artist. Now that's easy to understand. You know.

(16:20):
When you're unemployed, you know, you're like, I want to
hang in there, you know, I know, even though I'm
not being paid, I don't have a gig right now,
let me focus on the work. But then there are
times when you are employed and you're doing some bullshit.
You know, you have to also say, employment doesn't define

(16:40):
me as an actor. Everyone since being a yes man,
you know, saying oh you're good, You're good, that's the joint, right,
But you have to know, no, man, this is this
is some bull I have to I have to step
up my game and so have have some pride in
yourself and be a student of your craft and always
set the bar high. You see that, you know, man,
listen in the culture, people understand that when it comes

(17:03):
to basketball, when it comes to sports in general. And
I'll never forget the thing that got me so impressed
with Lebron is I'll never forget. He was explaining the
game one time, and you saw that he was a savant.
He described every play almost in the second half of
the fourth quarter. He said, well what happened this? And
then he's basketball you missed And the fact that he
remembered it, remember what we're right? What went wrong? He

(17:26):
was a savant, right, And so that just that made
me really appreciate him, right, really appreciate his game. But
you know, and that's the thing that will that that's
the thing that will help you and will be there
for you in the most difficult times, be a student
of your craft. When people are putting you down, when

(17:49):
there's conflict, when things aren't going right for you. The
one true north that you will always have is I'm
a student of my craft and that's important to me,
and that will be Uh. You know, you're saving.

Speaker 5 (18:02):
Grace when you're choosing or I guess like you're getting
or casting for roles. You still audition or do they just.

Speaker 2 (18:11):
Yeah, you audition. They try to pretend you're not auditioning.
Let's just have a meeting, you know, let's just have
a meeting, and we're going to film the meeting. You
don't mind if we film meetings that we remember, but
you know, I just want to have a have some
of the reference what we were talking about. You know,
I'm like, okay, yeah, and then and then we'll be

(18:32):
talking about the role and they you know, uh, and
I like to cut to the chase. I said, well,
you know, in the first reel and this first act,
this was happening. In the second act, this happening. But
the most important thing is when he ultimately expresses his
love for this woman. And it's the most difficult thing
he's ever done in his life. But he knows the
expression of this love. Actually, you know what happens in
this scene scene you mind if we read it, let

(18:56):
me just read it. Let's just read it. And they're like,
oh yes, oh I love to you know, and they're
all happy. And that's the thing that actually makes it
gives me a little distinction because the most cats would
be like, nah, I don't want to read. If it's
a meeting, it's a meeting. Either make the offer or not.
I said, I'm going to show you what I'm going
to do. And some actors always feel as though the
audition process like that. It's like, man, you Kyle Twan,

(19:18):
you don't have to kiss his ass, you know. I'm like, no, man,
it's a business meeting. I'm going to show you what
I'm going to do with the role. Hope you choose
me so we can take this further. But just like
if I'm at IBM and I'm a consultant and I say,
this is what's going to work best for your company.
This is how we're going to do it, this is
how I want to put it together, develop it, and
this is how we're going to execute it. So thank

(19:40):
you consider that with your board of directors, I'm out
of here, right, And that's the same thing with an actor.
It's your opening and closing night. You know, my best
one of the highlights of my career, I had an
audition with the great oh Man, I'm forgetting his name now,
such a highlight of my career. I forgot it, oh Man,

(20:02):
Bob Fosse, Bob Fosse, Bob Fosse, right, And I went
in did the audition and the guy was fumbling. The
stage manager. He took the book from him and read
it with me. And then the next thing, you know, man,
Bob Fosse says, you're great man, I love doing a
scene with you. I'm going to find something for you.
You're too young for this, I said, all right. A
couple of months later, I saw on the television Bob

(20:23):
Fosse died right.

Speaker 4 (20:25):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (20:25):
I'm like, oh man, I never got to work with him.
And then it stopped. I stopped myself. I said, wait
a minute, I did work with him. It was an
audience of two, but he and I got to work together,
and I'll always remember that moment. Right. So that was
my opening and closing night. And so that's how I
take all auditions, you know, so that it's important to

(20:46):
remember that's your opportunity to show your work. So it's beautiful.

Speaker 5 (20:49):
I was asking about the auditions because I know in Superman,
like you're playing an editor in chief of media outlet,
journalistic integrity and all those things are like the brain
Perry White. Yeah, Perry White, you come with, but like
that's so on time for right now and all the
conversations in the media. So how much do you bring
into from real life? Like do you connect to real
life when you do things?

Speaker 2 (21:08):
Because I know somebody, yes, especially with that, you know,
and even if you don't get to use it in
the film, I knew that, Man, newspapers right now are
having a hard time, you know, and all of a sudden,
how do you make it? And I said, that's kind
of like the reason Perry White is always you know,

(21:28):
pissed off. You know. It's like, man, how am I
as an editor going to keep this newspaper going? And
then the biggest story of the universe falls into his lap,
which is Superman and he has an inkling that Clark
can Superman. I don't care what anybody says. Classes ain't
fooling me. And so it's it's I do take take

(21:49):
that into account. You know that he's probably an editor
who's struggling to keep on top of things, especially with
all these different platforms out there that are killing him.
You know that are killing him. Uh is nobody reads
the papers anymore, so everything is online, you know, and
different platforms. Uh like this. So I used that to

(22:12):
kind of develop Perry White. And what's great about it is,
uh that's something that's developing even more that thinking about
doing a Daily Planet TV show extension of that with
actually it's around Jimmy about Jimmy Olsen. So yeah, so
you know that that I always take that's in the
development of character. Also, as you're prepared.

Speaker 4 (22:33):
He spoke earlier about you spoke earlier about Elsbeth. How
is it working with Steve Golbert? He announced that that project.

Speaker 2 (22:45):
Yeah, you know, it was it was it was already
in the works, so you know, it's uh imitating life,
life imitating art. Uh. It was its great. Steve Colbert
is fantastic. I didn't have I didn't have much to

(23:08):
do with him because he was out, uh so, but
he's very talented and that was something that we had
already done. By the time the news happened.

Speaker 4 (23:21):
So because I know he asked you for.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yeah, we were. I was on the show and he said, oh, man,
I would love to come on the show, you know,
even as a corpse. I said, I work on that,
you know, I did, you know, and it worked out.
So I'm not I'm not saying I'm going to take
all the credit, but I'm going to take the credit.
I got him on the show, and uh and so
it was really cool. And uh so, you know, whateverything

(23:45):
else happened was above my pay grade. I don't know
what happened behind the scenes, but it was cool.

Speaker 5 (23:50):
So Trump keep coming for us because of Charlotte.

Speaker 2 (23:52):
You can help us. Charlamagne, you hadn't let write. Man.
You know, you know, principle is principal. You know what
I'm saying. And actually you are exercising your right of
real having principal and that's something that you know, that's

(24:17):
something that is your true north. So I appreciate that.
I appreciate that, my brother. And you know, when you
think about you think about all the other times that
in times like this, people have given us the playbook
of how to stand on business, how to stand on principle.

(24:40):
And think of Muhammad Ali. Man, they marched down the
street against Muhammad Ali right outside this building, up and
down Broadway, and nights before y'all were born, when he
was fighting. Boy, they hated Muhammad Ali. They hated Muhammad Ali.
On the day he died. You couldn't find anyone who
hated Muhammad Ali. Right, everyone faint. Oh, you know, I

(25:02):
always love Mohammed right, But he stood on principle. I
think of him and the stand that you're taking. I
think of, you know, Martin Luther King in Birmingham Jail.
I think of black folks in the North Church, you know,
on New Year's Eve, waiting to get word about this
emancipation that we hear they're going to sign and give

(25:24):
us our freedom. Right, there were people who were principled,
going all the way back to the Revolutionary War. I
give a voice to one of the characters. I'm on
ken Burn's American Revolution coming out. It's coming out this month,
and I give voice to this one, brother James, who

(25:45):
the patriots asked him, you're going to get involved, and
even then they say, yeah, we're going to get involved.
But there's this issue with slavery we really got to
talk about. And even then they said, let's okay, we're
going to deal with that later. Let's just beat the British, right.
And then the British offered a whole bunch of folks,
will give you a freedom right now if you come
to our side and help us. And they really there

(26:08):
were a whole bunch of black folks who said, I'm
gonna get my freedom, I'm gonna help the British. And
then they they messed them, they messed over them. Man,
they said, we're going to give you land in the
British Empire. You say that to somebody, they always think
of London, right, And they gave them Nova Scotia. They
gave them Nova Scotia. Right. We're going to put you

(26:29):
in the cold of Canada, you know, after the war,
so black folks will getting it from both ways and
slavery with the Patriots and with the British, you know,
kind of being in the turncoats that they were and
saying help us. But then we're going to put you
in one of the coldest, harshest places of our commonwealth.

(26:51):
So I say all of that to say that you
are a part of a long line of people who
stand on principle. So uh and ultimately we know that's
that's the thing that will help and that's the thing
that will protect you ultimately because people will recognize that.

Speaker 1 (27:12):
So uh man, thank you very much, brother.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
And that's the that's the American aesthetic, you know, that's
what the American aesthetic is all about. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (27:21):
So I've always heard you say that acting is truth telling.
So when I listen to you talk just now, just
made me wonder when did you first realize that performance
could be a form of liberation.

Speaker 2 (27:34):
In New Orleans, there was a group called the Free
Southern Theater and they used to perform during doing the
Civil Rights movement under the threat of violence. I remember
the Klan told them, if y'all do that play, this
is we don't know if it's an urban myth now,
but if you do the play, you know we're going

(27:56):
to kill you, right. So they did the play. Lights
go down, everybody's waiting for the curtain call, and they
got in the cars and they jetted. So the clan
never got them, but they would go on the marches
and during the Civil Rights movement and perform, And that
was the company that got me interested it was right
as I was a kid, so my parents would go
and see the play and come back and tell me

(28:16):
about it. But then you you know, it's one of
those things that inspired me to be an actor and
realize that entertainment is just a byproduct of the art.
If you really want to go to a high level entertainment,
it's just a byproduct of the art. The art is
really understanding that it's the form where we collectively come together,

(28:37):
reflect on who we are, good and bad, who do
we want to be, what our values are, and then
go out and act on those values. And that's the
thing that motivates people. You know, I think I keep
talking about the civil rights movement, but you know the
song we Shall Overcome to hear that song inspired people

(28:58):
right to be a part of a movie like I was.
I stood on the emen Pettit's Bridge, man, I looked
down in the Alabama River and I said, you know,
I could hear those souls say tell my story. Don't
forget me, right, don't forget me, And think about that man.
Men and women in the moment before their death looking

(29:20):
at the barrel of a gun held by one of
their neighbors, saying man, don't let my death be in vain.
You see those pictures of people right before they're lynched,
you know, and this one brother is that one haunting
image of this brother just cut up and lashed and
beaten naked, right before he's lynched, and he's looking dead

(29:42):
into the lens, and it says if he's looking at
us in the future, saying remember this, remember me, don't
let my death be in vain. So when you stand
on principle like that, you are honoring them, don't let
their death be in vain, because we're not going to
let any anyone just try to sell us a bill
of goods and not be truthful and and not tell

(30:07):
us that, you know, not try to tell us that
we're going to make chicken salad out of that chicken shit.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
You're gonna have me saying that.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
Man, that's what it is when they ask you about
tier and say, yeah, that's you try to make chicken
salad out of chicken shit.

Speaker 3 (30:32):
What's the difference between visibility and representation and which one
matters more to you?

Speaker 1 (30:38):
At this point in your life.

Speaker 2 (30:40):
You always want you always want to be impactful, So
representation is really important. But I don't sleep on visibility.
But you can't. You can't just that can't just be
the sole purpose of why you want to be out there,
you know, because that means you do anything for that.
You know, you do anything for that, man, I see,
you know, uh, you know that's why everybody has a podcast.

(31:03):
Everybody's you know, you know, man, everybody's a content creator
where they came up with a phrase for an and
ever I'm a content creator, you know. I'm an independent journalist.
That's the other one. I'm an independent journalist. Actually, that
one's kind of him because you know, you could be
doing you could be getting away with a whole bunch
of stuff, and like, I'm an independent journalist, and actually

(31:23):
that independence forces you to to uh be more principal
with your journalism. Right. The only thing that will give
me the power or that visibility is if I'm uniquely
a journalist, because so many media companies are compromising that
now just to stay out of you know, be dodging
bullets and at the same time promote other propaganda. But

(31:44):
uh so visibility is important. If I had to give
up one, I'll give up the visibility for representation because
I know that that is impactful that. You know, how
many times are we hearing about people for the first time.
We didn't know we're so impact in people's lives until
later because someone said, no, you've you've been sleeping on

(32:07):
this person, right, you don't know about so and so
you don't know you know, in your gay man, you
know you hear about that producer. You go, man, yeah,
you know about all the cats who were coming up
in the Bronx and the music hip hop was happening
and all of that. But hey man, this cat was
the one who's the best DJ out there, right, and

(32:27):
so you start to hear that, and so that's because
he was truthful. And the representation is the thing that
cannot be denied. And this it's going to impact someone
who will ultimately that'll give you the visibility. It may
be delayed. It's just like the Wire. You know, everybody
was sleeping on it when it was on air. Now
twenty years later, it's still impactful, right because the representation

(32:51):
was there, you know. And we never were nominated for
an Emmy.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
That's crazy, wow.

Speaker 2 (32:57):
Never nominated for an Emmy, never nominated for an Emmy.
None of the performances nominated for an Emmy. You know,
and we could go down the line, performance after performance
after performance. We have the repertory company of some of
the best actors in the game. Yeah, and so that
just goes to show you, you know. But ultimately somebody

(33:18):
recognized it and said it's deserving of the Peabody Award. Right,
So you are making an impact, you know, So I'll
take representation of visibility.

Speaker 5 (33:28):
Your work is so impactful though, in like what's happening
in media right now is like anybody who is like,
you know, standing, like you said, tints down right, Like
the American Revolution series that you talked about that's on PBS.

Speaker 2 (33:39):
Yeah, that's going to be on PBS. Ken Burns The
American Revolution.

Speaker 5 (33:43):
Is that? Because I've been seeing so much stuff about
NPR and PBS with the Trump administration, like.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
Perfect example, perfect example of representation being important. We're living
in a time where funding is being cut. The Corporation
of Public Broadcasting no longer exists. Just think about just
think about that. PBS and NPR are going to be gone.

(34:11):
And that's because in all coups, you take over the
media first, so you can control the propaganda, and a
part of it is silencing those you feel as though
are going to shed light on your criminality, right, And
that's that's the thing that is so important to make

(34:36):
sure that you get out there and something like that.
The American Revolutionary think of all the ken Burns Civil War,
the Vietnam War, the recent when he did with country music,
you know, to show to the to show the roots
of country music and how impactful it was and how

(34:59):
you know, multi racial it was. You know, So all
of that doesn't have a platform, you know, and so
you have to fight against that. I mean, that's why,
you know, it's important to support organizations and institutions that

(35:24):
we'll be able to get give voice to the voiceless,
give a stage, you know, an opportunity to folks, you know.
And that's why as an artist, you understand, you know
that this form is where we reflect on who we are,
who we hope to be. But at the same time,
as an advocate, I feel as though the social justice

(35:46):
movement of the twenty first century is economic development. And
that's why at this time and in this moment, when
there's so much funding pulling back and opportunities that are
taken away, it's important to create those opportunities. And that's
why right now, I'm very proud of something that we're
announcing and launching. It's a great segue into that, which

(36:08):
is the Coalition for Legacy Theaters of Color Fund, which
I have been a part of creating to give opportunities
to those legacy theaters who have been in the creative
cultural economy of this city of New York for over

(36:29):
twenty five years, and also those new companies who are
giving that legacy a chance to live on. And that's
what this fund is going to fund, the productions and marketing,
and it's a ten million dollar commitment that we're announcing
today the Coalition WOW, the Coalition for Legacy Theaters of Color.

(36:51):
It's a partnership that I am giving my full throated
endorsement to the Caesars Palace Time Squared project, which is
a hotel in Casino. I'm very honored that they are
giving a commitment to making sure that those cultural institutions

(37:14):
like that are sustained going into the future. So they
listen to my proposal of supporting companies like the Negro
Ensemble Company and the Billie Holliday Theater and the Black
Spectrum Theater and New Heritage Theater Group, who have been
around since you know, for twenty five, thirty forty fifty years,

(37:39):
even serving communities of color with theater. They inspired me
to be an actor when I was a little boy
reading about them in New Orleans, right, and then came
up here and so proud to now join with jay
Z and Rock Nation and sl Green and Caesar's Gaming

(38:01):
and Caesars Entertainment to bring this coalition together. And that's
why they are building this project. But you know, you
can do well and do good, and they understand that
this project is about making sure that the community has
some input and then they're servicing the community. And this
is this is something that I'm proud of. It's going

(38:21):
to be right in the middle of Broadway, and that
in the Broadway community is at the is the pinnacle
of theater in New York and the cultural economy and
so uh, I'm proud to be a part of that.
I'm proud to to launch this fund today and give
my full throated endorsement of Caesars Palace Times Square.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
It's the fun that is congratulations, thank you, thank you
very much.

Speaker 3 (38:49):
Is the fun The sole reason you wanted to support
the bid for Rock Nation and that sl Green Caesar Palace.

Speaker 2 (38:55):
Uh I wanted to support it. First of all, I'm
an artist, right. First of all are artists, and to
see these companies that should be who aren't getting the
attention they deserve, who are underfunded in my eyes, who
should who have given and created a legacy that has
to be sustained. That was the most important thing to

(39:18):
me as an advocate. You know, I'm from New Orleans.
Twenty years ago we were destroyed by Katrina. And the
one thing I learned is the social justice movement for
the twenty first century is economic development and to that's
the way you build sustainability. That's why how you protect
communities on all And one of the reasons I support

(39:41):
this is because this is clearly an economic engine that's
going to develop Times Square, that's going to bring multitudes
of jobs. You know, is going to have a halo
effect of affecting all the businesses around Time Square. And
at the same same time, think of all the people

(40:01):
that come in that's going to be coming to see
coming to be a part of Caesars and to stay
at the hotel and go to the casino. That's more
of an influx of people who are coming to Broadway.
You know, almost it's projected to be almost you know,
eight hundred thousand more people who are going to be
coming to Broadway. Now, take these companies who never get

(40:24):
the attention, who never get the real quality marketing that
this is going to present. This sixty five million people
who are part of this rewards program that they're going
to have access to. There's going to be childcare, so
you know, the development has said, we're going to really
put put our put our belief into action childcare for

(40:46):
Broadway workers. There's going to be debt relief, student debt relief,
medical debt relief, you know, health relief. And I think
that's important. I'm a union man, so my union Actors
Equity is supporting it Local eight or two, which is

(41:08):
a musicians union. So this is now you see a
part of me as a producer. You know, I'm a
Tony Award winning producer. So I understand here's an opportunity
where art meets commerce. And so we understand the art,
that's the thing that everyone shares. We have a vision
of how art can impact community. We may have differences

(41:32):
on how we build that economic engine and the commerce
that will support that but we have commonality there. But
the economic engine that a project like this brings, I've
seen it in New Orleans post Katrina. I've seen this
particular company, Caesars in New Orleans and how people have

(41:52):
the same concerns about whether or not we should have
this casino right in the French Quarter. You know, this
is the heart of our culture, and it has been
more than beneficial. It has developed the French Quarter, it
has brought jobs there, it has brought more visitors there.
So this is for me, an economic engine, and I

(42:15):
feel as though the twenty first century social justice movement
starts with it economic development, and especially in a time
when so much is being cut back, we have to
exercise our right of self determination. So I challenge the
partnership to say, I'm an artist, these are the companies
that I want to support, and if you want to
reach out to the community, I ask you to support

(42:37):
them too, And they said, we're willing to do that.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
Man, blame Rock Nation for all of that.

Speaker 3 (42:44):
And as you said earlier, when though, that's why representation
is important. Because you have a company like Rock Nation
who cares about the communities like Manhattan Plaza in that area.

Speaker 1 (42:53):
They care about the folks on Broadway.

Speaker 3 (42:55):
They listen to people like yourself, and they brought something
to the table to benefit those people.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
Yeah, man, listen, you talk about Manhattan Plaza. There's a
fifteen million dollar commitment there. You know, there's twenty million
dollars going towards kids and families and seniors being able
to afford the tickets of Broadway. There's subsidizing ticket purchases
like that. So I tell people all the time, never
lose the ability to have your concerns and your questions.

(43:24):
Never lose the ability to be offended. And so challenge,
challenge yourself, and challenge anyone who wants to come and
do a development like Caesars in Times Square and say
this is what I expect. And they've heard that, and
they're answering that security, sanitation, infrastructure around it, jobs in

(43:47):
that area, the development of what the engine will bring
to the table. They are showing you the impact that
it can have, the economic engine. And that's why I
feel comfortable doing it. I've seen it done at this
particular company in New Orleans. I know how important it
is that a company like the Negro Ensemble Company is

(44:10):
started by Douglas Tronoward and Robert Hooks and so many people.
The last time I saw them in the theater that
they had was when I was in school in like
nineteen eighty two. It was a second production a play
called a Soldier's Play and a young actor in Denzel

(44:32):
Washington Adolf Caesar was playing the sergeant. And they haven't
had a play on Broadway since Ceremonies in Dark Old Men,
which was like nineteen seventy one. It's because they haven't
had the opportunity of marketing and funding. So this is

(44:52):
a chance. I wanted to bring an infusion of sustainability
to them because they should have their place at the
pinnacle of cultural economy in New York. And that's UH,
and that's what this fund is all about. The coalition
of legacy Theaters of Color, and that's what this fund

(45:16):
is going to be built on, and that's what we're
going to be building to make sure that they get
the recognition, have the sustainability, and have the marketing and
funding UH that is needed. And that's the commitment that
the Caesars partnership is bringing, and I'm partnering with them
to make sure that it's sustainable.

Speaker 1 (45:34):
If the blame Rock Nation.

Speaker 4 (45:37):
If the if the proposal for the casino is you know,
is denied, what is that? How would that impact the
CLTC fund?

Speaker 2 (45:45):
Uh? Yeah, it it It means it doesn't happen initially
because you know, it means it doesn't happen. But then
we we we we go on and will uh you know,
the advocacy doesn't stop, you know, uh, and we'll look
for ways to fund it. Initially and you know, I
will challenge those who are part of the partnership to say,

(46:09):
even though we lost this, which I don't think they'll lose,
but we will find a way to still build a fund.
I'm still going to be committed to it. This is
something that you know is a long time commitment from it.

Speaker 5 (46:25):
What do you say to people who still after everything
you just talked to us about, right, who still say
this is bad for Broadway? Broadway just started, it's uptick
since the pandemic, and now you're bringing something that will
be against the business.

Speaker 2 (46:36):
Right. Yeah. First of all, I say take your emotions
out of it, and let's look at it like business folks.
Let's look at the spreadsheet. Do you want to have
sixty five million people with their eyes on your business.
In marketing, do you want to bring in on average
eight hundred thousand more people to your business? Do you

(47:04):
want to increase that pool? Do you want to have
cross marketing with with the theaters that are going to
be around there, the theaters who will be a part
of our fund. Uh. There's a rewards program that Caesars
has that directly to the businesses that will be a
part of the rewards program. Where you know that is

(47:28):
direct dollars to the business. It's a discount to the
members of the rewards program, but that discount is paid
for directly from the seat from Caesars, and so it
is not a discount to those theaters. So when it
comes to marketing, you can't buy marketing at this level.

(47:51):
When it comes to extending your pool of prospective clients,
as you say, or you're the people who are going
to be going into the theater, you can't buy that
level of influx. So I tell people all the time,

(48:14):
your concerns are valid, your questions are valid. But as
I say to my community in New Orleans, because I
was bringing back my neighborhood which is now on the
National Register of Historic Places, the price you have to
pay for complaint is bring a solution to the table. Oh,

(48:36):
we have a solution to the table. Now, where's yours?
Where is your economic impact of two hundred and fifty
million dollars to the community around you in security, sanitation, healthcare,
an economic engine for all the businesses. Employment. The other

(48:57):
thing that we have is a job fare for you
were unemployed that the Broadway workers on a monthly basis
can come to seizures for a job fair, the job fair,
student debt relief, medical debt relief, housing rental relief. So

(49:18):
that's our solutions to the table. That's our answers to
your complaint. Where yours?

Speaker 1 (49:25):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (49:26):
That was a response. Do you feel like you get
to go ahead?

Speaker 1 (49:30):
Charlie?

Speaker 5 (49:31):
No, you go?

Speaker 2 (49:33):
No, you go.

Speaker 5 (49:35):
I don't know if I shifted a bit, but I'm
just sitting here like thinking about you know, what you're
doing right now with you know, with the fund, everything
we talked about with your career and like the roles
that you've had, and I don't know, do you feel
like you get your flowers enough for like just impact
but also like just the half that you're paving for
other artists, not even just actors. But artists in general
who really want to stand for substance I have.

Speaker 2 (49:58):
I've been given a great blessing to know and meet,
I should say, just meeting Ozzie Davis, Ruby, d Sidney Poitier,
Arabella Fonte, Mary Alice, folks who have inspired me as

(50:28):
an artist, who were like a part of that Moses generation.
They give you the gift of their talent and their
time and inspiration, and that Moses generation hands you this
baton as a part of the Joshua generation, and you
take that on and as they have passed on, feeling

(50:49):
that responsibility to them, I'm standing on their shoulders. That's
my flowers, that's my flowers. I'll never forget meeting Sidney Puartier.
He came to a play. I was doing Fences in
Pasadena and man, they said, you know he's here and he.
I ran to my dressing room and took off my costume.

(51:11):
I couldn't wait to meet the man. And I opened
my door and he was standing in the threshold.

Speaker 3 (51:15):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (51:15):
And I just burst into tears. I tear up thinking
about it now, and I just said, thank you, thank
you for everything you've given me. You've changed my life.
This is the only moment I'm gonna have with you.
I just want to thank you. God is going to
bless you because you have impacted so many people and
made so much. And he said, oh, man, thank you
so much. Man, you don't have to. And I said,

(51:39):
but that says an artist. I just remember you as
a man. There's a famous interview when he lands and
he says, you're asking me all these questions. You haven't
said anything about. Ask me a question about being a father,
about being a husband, about being a man by a
black man. You insult me and assuming that I'm only
supposed to answer these certain things in a box. And

(52:04):
and I was able to tell him that and share
that with him. And that's my flowers. That's my flowers.
That's where I tell all the folks who want to
be content creators right right, you know, ready looking for
that likes. You know, if you give more, that's your like.

(52:28):
You know, don't work. If the more you give, that's
the thing that you know years from now you'll be
able to have some sense of accomplishment. And that's that's
what this is all about, you know, that's the thing
that motivates me as an artist and as an activist.
I learned twenty years ago. I said, twenty years from now,

(52:49):
some kid is going to ask me in New Orleans
darkest hour, what did you do? And I want to
be able to have an answer. And I did. I
put together a a resident initiated redevelopment of Punchy Train Park,
the neighborhood I grew up in, and brick by brick,
house by house, block by block, we rebuilt our neighborhood

(53:10):
and it's on the National Register of Historic Places. So
now twenty years later, I can say this is what
I did. Kid, right, go look at that market right there.
That's what we did together. Now I can hand that
paton off to you. That's my flowers. That's my flowers.
And that's why I'm doing it with these theaters, man,

(53:31):
you know, they they inspired me. I am only here
because of them? Is this the most uncool interview on
Breakfast Club?

Speaker 3 (53:41):
What I love it?

Speaker 1 (53:45):
This one of the most insightful ones.

Speaker 3 (53:46):
What you just said is why I love these type
of conversations, because twenty years from now, it's going to
be some kid watching this interview and learning so much
from your wisdom.

Speaker 2 (53:55):
Yeah, well, thank you man, that's uh you know, first
of all, the platform that you give folks is so
valuable and so important, And what you guys are doing
is impactful too. So that's why I'm I'm honored.

Speaker 1 (54:07):
To be here.

Speaker 3 (54:09):
I just got a couple more questions. You know, when
I think about your work, right like you've You've done
a lot of work that has dealt with systems from
poverty to policing, the housing. How do you, as a
black man stay hopeful when the systems seem not to change?

Speaker 2 (54:32):
Because I know, I understand the power of exercising and
practicing radical self care, practice radical self care, And how
how dare I lose faith or lose hope or optimism?

(54:59):
As you think of those who were chained in the
bottom of those ships, who were thrown overboard, chained together
to their death. How dare you the centuries of folks
of your family who had no reason to hope, but

(55:20):
they still found a way to give vision and find
joy in their humanity? I mean, think about it, think
about it. How dare we, at any moment, especially where
we are right now, lose hope? Because what happens is

(55:47):
I think about you know, I came back at New
Year's Eve, I spent in a krog Ghana, which is
really hip. You know. In twenty twenty, they started the
Year of the Return and they have that Afro Future
concert and they have the biggest, the biggest New Year's
Eve party on the beach man It literally it had

(56:08):
the fireworks display that went off for half an hour,
and I was just like, people were like, that's enough.
We don't want no more fireworks. You know, I never
thought I'd get tired of fireworks. But I was thinking
about all the folks, all the kids that I want
to have an impact on, if I could just bring
them here, because the one thing, just a trip to Africa.

(56:30):
First of all, let's get out of this whole idea
of one day before I died, I was gonna make
it to the motherland. No man, next weekend, Get on
the plane and go for the weekend and come back. Right,
That's a part of that disconnect. The poorest person here
is a rich man on the continent. The poorest person

(56:51):
here is a rich man on the continent. Once they
see that sort of poverty and go oh okay, wait
a minute. Then you go there and I see so
many people like it's not how much we lost in
the Middle passages, how much we held on to so
you go, wait a minute, I know you that looks
just like Bookie.

Speaker 1 (57:11):
You know, I.

Speaker 2 (57:14):
Was in Uganda. I was in Uganda at the National
Theater and they were speaking their language language I forget,
which I like a tribe and they said, hmm, I said, man,
Robert Ziahmugga, I said, Robert. He was the artistic director
of the National Theater of Uganda in Coompala. Was that, Robert,

(57:36):
I know you look at the breakfast club. What's up? Man?
And I said, I said wow, Man, I said, wow,
we do that too. I can't believe we held on
to that, man. I was all emotional. Black people held
on to it, man, because you know, you go, I
can't believe it. What that girl lost all her money?

(57:56):
He said. Wendell, he goes, yes, you held on to it.
But it's not just an ex depression. That's a written
word for like disappointment and shame. Right. You see a
woman or a man they do something and you don't
appreciate it and go, oh, that's a that's a shame,
and you go he goes, yeah, he said, No, that's
a written word in our language, right, and that's why

(58:18):
it sounds like that you held on to it, but
you don't know what the language is because you cut
off from language. And I start to realize that there's
so much of that that we don't know about. And
I say that to say I don't lose hope because
I just those kids need that epiphany. Right, we are

(58:40):
the violence in our community is as a student of
human behavior, and you have psychologists on here, they could
actually tell you better than I is a reflection of
the depression, the mental anguish and depression and the trauma
in our community. Right, Like, you try to do everything

(59:02):
right and buy the book, and every step of the
way someone is going to challenge you every step of
the way. Right, put your house up for sale. It's
a praise lore. Right, we put systems in the place
where education you're not going to get the money you want. Right,
and now what this administration is going to do and

(59:23):
administration is like it, we're going to take this public
money that's supposed to be set aside for public education. Right,
white flight has happening from our public education and kind
of give it to them to subsidize their private education. Well,
we're going to shut down the Department of Energy or
the Department of Education. Right, but if so, at every
step of the way, and that causes trauma, Man, you

(59:45):
get tired of it and you're angry, and so therefore
conflict resolution isn't Hey, hold on, let's talk about this.
I see you as myself now. It's like you just
lash out, right, So conflict resolution becomes right. So, as
a student human behavior, you just want to give people
instances of epiphany and hope. So I always think, man,

(01:00:09):
to take those kids, just a trip to Africa and
see it. Right, That's why it's so important to travel
and have experience and different experiences and say that this
is a part of who you are and your humanity.
It doesn't even have to be that just to go, hey,
we're going to spend a day in the park and
learn about grass, different grasses. What does that have to

(01:00:31):
do with anything? Mister Pearce, has everything to do with
you find some interest in it, or at least find
out I don't like this. That's an epiphany too, you
know something. I don't want to spend my time trying
to discern the different blades of grass. I want to
do something else. So what do you want to do now, Okay,
now let me make that decision. So now you're thinking,

(01:00:53):
so that's the sort of work, the personal work that
would be able to change systems, then you could have
Then you can really have an impact. The reason we
don't change the systems is because people are trying to
spend so much time to just stay in the system. Right,

(01:01:14):
So I'm not going to do anything to kick me out.
That's why when people say I'm not going to run
for Senate anymore, and then all of a sudden, you know,
Senator Tillis, it's now speaking truth. Right. It's like, man,
you've been here for twenty years now that you know
you don't have to try to kiss ass to get
somebody's vote. Now, now you're going to say, oh, okay,
I want somebody to put I want somebody to get

(01:01:36):
in the government. See. And this is the thing that
our president is good at. And I don't support him,
you know a lot of you know. But the one
thing I got to say is there's a certain way
you behave when you have fuck you money, right, Like

(01:01:59):
I don't have to do anything to Coyle's outed you.
I don't have to kiss your ass. I don't have
to do anything right because it's not going to affect
me because if you know, if you if you cut
me off tomorrow, I'm cool because I'm I got some
chips in my pocket. I'm good. That's an old term.
I'm sure at my age, I got so I'm stacking chips.

(01:02:22):
That's like an old but you know then you know
so so when so when he starts to get a
little protective, like we don't need to put out them files,
then you know then you know he doesn't have fucking
you money, doesn't have any any protective I'm scared of
this ship, you know. So that's a long way to

(01:02:45):
get around to exercise radical self care. And when you
do that, then your contribution to the dynamic is different.
You change the paradigm then, and that's how you change
the system. That was a long winded man. We love,

(01:03:08):
but that's how you change it. That's how you change it.
You know, don't be exercise radical self care and stand
on principle. Bro, you know what I'm saying, that's what
it is. That's that's the people we remember. That's the
people we remember, right, So I think that's how we

(01:03:28):
changed the system. That's how we changed. I went on
a I went on a barbershop tour, uh during the campaign, right,
and uh the last Kamala I actually did it on
my own, everybody thought. And then then you know, I
was saying, hey, man, be selfish. I want I want you.

(01:03:51):
I want you to challenge me and say this is
what I want, and then I can show you everything
in the platform that will service you. Right. So it
was the barbershop too. I remember going to Milwaukee and everything.
The rather said, Man, but you know, I don't think
you know, they haven't done shit for me nothing. I said, Man,

(01:04:12):
let's just go down the list of everything we as
much as we hate the government, everything we love about
the government. Social Security, we got money set aside for
disability and you know a lot of people on disability,
the hustle of disability sometimes right, social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. Right.

(01:04:39):
Everything you think about my political party gave. You can't
name anything that people care about in this country, right.
That is saying this is important to us, that it
was a part of government that came from that other side,
those who do not have our best interests at heart,
because the other side was always about keeping people ignorant

(01:05:00):
of the game. So we can all make a lot
of money because we will always be able to hustle
the If you vote for me, you might become a
member of the rich white boy club. That is the
thing that is the kart on the stick. That the
right has always been good at messaging. They haven't provided anything,

(01:05:21):
you know, and that seems like a radical idea. But
you know that's I forgot the question. Now I went
down the rabbit hole.

Speaker 4 (01:05:31):
But all the time they write a messaging like the
right is always good at messaging.

Speaker 2 (01:05:39):
Yeah, yeah, So I think the way you change the system,
the way you change the system is first of all,
be authentic and truthful and not care about I'd look
forward to politicians and say, you know, something that was wrong? Right,
that was wrong. We shouldn't have said that. Folks should
be able to say right now, even defund the police.

(01:06:01):
That was the wrong messaging. We knew what we wanted.
We didn't want all this money going into militaristic policing.
So redistribute the wealth of the or redirect redirect the
resources or something. We should have said something else. We
learned it in the sixties, Burn baby burn, that did
not win US elections, you know. But the one thing

(01:06:24):
I got, I got to give the right their due
and the last person you were expected from, Richard Nixon
started the EPA. Richard Nixon started the EPA, And that
is something we got to give him credit for. And

(01:06:44):
we should tell the right. One of your one of
the pillars of your philosophy, started the EPA. So why
are you going against it now? Richard Nixon started.

Speaker 3 (01:06:57):
The Yeah, they'll probably say he was wrong, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:03):
Definitely, Yeah, he said, yeah, then then they'll bring up Watergate,
right exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:07:11):
I wanted to ask you a couple more questions.

Speaker 3 (01:07:13):
You're such a moral compass, right, and then it seemed
like you in some roles you're casted as a moral
compass too in real life?

Speaker 1 (01:07:21):
Who keeps you honest? Incentive?

Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
I love the books of Albert Murray. The omni American
Omni Americans is one of my favorite books, just under
he was a great philosopher. I was able to meet him.
I grew up and went to Marcellus and great jazz
trumpet player and all, and we would we would go

(01:07:47):
up and uh talk to mister Murray, Albert Murray, Man,
Albert Murray really taught me the understanding of what is
your contribution to the diaspora. Then he also taught me
that there's a uniqueness to our contribution to the human

(01:08:08):
diaspora as black folk. Right, we are also why the
book is the Omni Americans the best demonstration of the
American aesthetic when it comes to like jazz, freedom within form.
To improvise a solo while you honor the structure of
the song is an example of the American aesthetic. We

(01:08:33):
are a nation of laws, but we have to be
adaptable and be able to do improv and honor that
where the two can coexist, where you can honor the
form but at the same time exercise your right as
an individual to be as individual as you can be
and to have that duality. Came from our community. That's

(01:08:57):
with the creation. That's the creation of jazz, that's creation
of hip hop. Right. Hip hop was always about you know,
you're taking this, you know, it was always about the DJ.
Remember about the DJ and the hype man was just
to come to see the DJ, and then he started
more and more and more becoming the front. Right, and
then somebody would kick out the plug from the street

(01:09:19):
lamp and the party's over. But that that's that's what
it's about, you know. But Albert Murray teaches me that
that's that's why it strengthened his philosophy of understanding that
there's a discussion of the Western civilization, of the contributions

(01:09:41):
of man and woman, and don't forget the unique contribution
that our experience, unique experience has given to that. Right
and once and once you understand that, then you can
appreciate all the variations of it. That there's a uniqueness

(01:10:03):
to someone who has our experience and the Caribbean experience,
or our experienced Caribbean experience and the African experience in Africa,
and understand the connection of all of that. And those
are the Omni Americans. That's been the great contribution. And
that's why so many cultures, you know, admire it, pretend

(01:10:26):
that they don't and and but emulate it, you know. Ooh,
and that and that Albert Murray, that's the man, that's
the man. Read his books. Man read the Omni Americans.
It is great, the great book. And that keeps me
on track. That gives me, you know, that helps fight

(01:10:47):
through all the craziness and stuff too, you know, because
it's by design to separate you, right when you hear
the arguments of I remember I was in Budapest and
I came back and I was like, who these Ados
people are? You know? It was Ados, right, And Roland

(01:11:08):
Martin called me and said, boy, they gonna come after you.
I'm like, this makes no sense what you're talking about.
We're not connected. I'm just and now it's FBA or whatever.
And you notice it only comes up around election time.
So you're sitting there going somebody is paying this to
go forward promoting this. And what's around this time is
people get in where they fit in, and when they

(01:11:28):
start making money, they start you know, listen, man, I'm
gonna believe it. I'm gonna embrace it. I'll never forget.
Rush Limbaugh mentioned on his show, oh man, you know
those liberals are gonna kill Clarence Thomas and everything. And
but I like that actor playing Clarence Thomas, Wendell Pierce.
I really like him. So I reached out to him.

(01:11:50):
I said, you know, I wanted to have a dialogue, right,
I said, it doesn't have to be on the show,
you know, I appreciate it and his whole thing. They
came back, and it was us like, no, man, we
know you support Obama, we know publicly you a liberal,
and it wouldn't be a good look. And I was
just like, man, you make one hundred million dollars a year,
what does this matter. Let's have a real conversation. And actually, wow,

(01:12:13):
it taught me something about Clarence Thomas too. Clarence Thomas
and I literally almost had the same lives, right from
the South, black Catholic grandparents with farmers. Education was real
important to him, important to the family. We go to college,

(01:12:35):
Clarence Thomas goes to college. Clarence Thomas was a radical,
radical man. This afro is picking his head. He's going
on protests, you know, almost like a black panther, and
goes to law school and all he wants to do
is come back to Savannah and practice law. And it's

(01:12:57):
at that point that he's completely rejected, right, and it
shows you how insidious racism can be, how insidious racism
can be. He was just like, but I have a
Yale law degree. You know, I'm better than most of
the partners in these old you know, old line law firms.

(01:13:21):
They say, yeah, but we still don't watch it, right,
And He didn't take it as oh man, look how
racist they are. He said, well, it must because they
think less of my degree, so affirmative action is awful.
I'm just like, what, You're not gonna blame them at all. No,

(01:13:41):
I'm gonna blame everything that gave me an opportunity to
get there. And then the only job he could get
was with the Republican a d in the in the Midwest,
and so and then he was on track. But I
actually think Clarence Thomas is a perfect example of how

(01:14:05):
insidious racism can be, because I think he is really thinking,
I'm giving you the best of humanity and I'm still
being rejected, and it has developed I think a self

(01:14:26):
hate in him, a self hate of all of.

Speaker 5 (01:14:30):
That, you know, self hate, And so I feel like
sometimes I think this goes back to Charlomne's questions about
like you keeping hope alive throughout all your work, it
can make you feel like these things aren't never ever
ever going to change, Like you know, like no matter
what you do, what you accomplished, would you try to
do There's always someone to say, but you.

Speaker 2 (01:14:50):
Have so many examples of when it does change and
how it feels when you just think of just your
education dream, you know, think about graduation. There were times,
you know, when you had a paper due or you
were taking a test and you're like, man, I'm just
not going to get through this. You ultimately do when

(01:15:14):
you know, when you find people who support you where
you least expected. You know, people you assume were against
you were like, I'm going to recognize your excellence. There
are so many of those times also that should embolden you,

(01:15:43):
that should give you encouragement. The mistake that we make
is we think that once we accomplish something we support,
accomplish a change, that is done. The work is done.
But it's like a crime disease. Right, It's like a
chronic disease. You have to be ever vigilant. We never

(01:16:04):
thought that in twenty twenty five, we have to protect
the Voting Rights Bill or reconstitute it because they've taken
out Section four, which actually protects you, gives you all
the voting right protections. They've actually taken that out. So
you have to be ever vigilant to make sure that

(01:16:25):
it works for you. Right. That's where the hope comes in, right,
because you know that those who do not have our
best interests at heart, and you have to do everything
possible to give yourself that hope. Right, And that's what

(01:16:45):
I mean by exercising radical self care, doing the things
necessary that you know are necessary to get you there.
And don't get distracted by trying to convince something, trying
to convince someone who does not have your best interests
at heart. That's just on a personal level, and you
translate that into a larger level too.

Speaker 3 (01:17:07):
It's my last question, mister Pis. You've been very generous
with your times, so thank you. How do you define
cultural legacy and who are you building yours for?

Speaker 2 (01:17:16):
Albert Murray? Once again, the man teaches you what culture is.
Culture is a people intersecting with life itself. The literal
intersection of how people deal with life is culture. How

(01:17:36):
they deal with pain and joy, death and life developments, enlightenment.
That is culture. And when you when you understand that,
and entertainment is a byproduct of that, When you understand

(01:17:59):
that's that's what the culture is. That's what the definition
of culture is. You are keenly aware of how it
is an exercise and futility. If you don't contribute to culture,
you have to say, well, how is this going to
bring some meaning to how we deal with this situation
in life? Are we just making noise, talking gossip or

(01:18:28):
or we're saying, hey, let's enlighten ourselves about this. What
does this mean? This is how it's destructive? And how
can we make this constructive? That's cultural legacy. It's I
think of the culinary arts of New Orleans. What gumbo

(01:18:50):
is all about. The scraps from the table mixed with
flower and burning flower in some oil and getting your
root going the holy trinity of celery, onions and bell
pepper chopped up. And that's going to be my season.
And I'm going to build this from nothing and build

(01:19:14):
it into a dish that is known around the world gumbo, right,
And that's a metaphor for what we need to how
we can look at it. So I have nothing, So
how am I going to make an impact on how
we literally live our lives. I'm going to give sustenance.
We're going to feed ourselves and at the same time

(01:19:36):
be as creative with what we do that people are
gonna remember it. That's what gumbo is all about. You know.
It's like when a guy is shooting his shot, he's like, man,
you know you still stay shooting your shot. Yeah, that's
actually just like you know, you're trying to trying to

(01:20:00):
get that person's interest in you at the same time
trying to find out what is it about them? Right,
the two happening at the same time. Right, If you're saying, hey, man,
I want to become something, not only are you interested
in it, but how am I going to change the
game and then be a student of the game and
not be jealous of somebody who does it better than me,

(01:20:22):
but actually, go, man, I need to get there. That
is the development of culture, and that's how you leave
a cultural impact for me as an artist. I'm trying
to do that as an artist, but I'm also trying
to do that as an advocate. Right. That is what
you know, supporting institutions that have legacy is all about,

(01:20:44):
And that's the impact that I hope to have. That
you know, to build and sustain companies who have built
and build something in me and in my heart, right,
these companies have given me encouragement, they have given me vision,

(01:21:06):
and I want to make sure that they're sustained and
go into the future, right because they motivated me when
I was younger and I was starting my career. That's
what culture is, That's what cultural legacy is all about.
And having that cultural impact is entertaining. Yes, people will
always remember the joy of being entertained by the culture

(01:21:29):
that you create, but also it has to bring some
insightfulness and impact their lives long after, right. I'm always
thinking of the words of Arthur Miller that says, there's
a certain immortality in the theater now given by monuments
of books, but with the knowledge and actor takes with

(01:21:52):
them until their dying day. That in a dusty theater
on the stage, he cast the shadow of a person
who was not himself, but all the distillation of everything
he has ever seen, and all the unsung heart songs
that the common man feels but never utters, he gives

(01:22:15):
voice to. And then doing that he joins the ages.
I'm trying to join the ages, giving voice to the voiceless.
That's cultural legacy, and that's cultural impact.

Speaker 1 (01:22:31):
You should gonna be a time about uncool.

Speaker 2 (01:22:32):
How the hell what amazing?

Speaker 3 (01:22:38):
That's important, mister Wendell Piss, Thank you man, Thank you
for your wisdom, thank you for your insight, thank you
for your art, thank you for your service to our people.
Thank you for the Coalition of Legacy, Theaters of Color.
Thank you, just just thank you, brother.

Speaker 2 (01:22:52):
Thank you. Man. I am so honored to be here
at the Breakfast Club. It really is. It's a smile
on my face. Smile on my face. I got some
cache now.

Speaker 1 (01:23:01):
As soon as they said you, I'm like.

Speaker 2 (01:23:06):
Baltimore in the house. Man. I love Baltimore. I love Baltimore.
Thank you for the breakfast Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:23:12):
It's window Piers, It's the Breakfast Club.

Speaker 3 (01:23:14):
Hold up every day a wake, clake your ass up,
the Breakfast Club.

Speaker 1 (01:23:19):
You don't finish for y'all done.