May 6, 2025 • 39 mins
In this webinar, you will learn:
✅ What is the ideal number of managements your Property Managers should be handling?
✅ Learn how to structure the perfect day for your Property Manager
✅The essential Dos & Don'ts of Offshoring in Property Management
✅Organic or Acquisition? Which method is better?
✅ Know exactly what to look for before buying a rent roll to avoid costly mistakes
✅ How to manage your tech systems to stay secure
Who is Jonathan Bell?
Jonathan is one of the leading thought leaders in Property Management. As the founder and CEO of Housemark, Jonathan has expanded Housemark into the fastest-growing property management office in Australasia.
Under his leadership, the company has organically grown from 0 to 3,000+ managements, and continues to expand at a rate of 100+ new managements per month.
He is also the founder of Wingman Group, an offshoring solution that provides virtual assistants to real estate agencies. With a team of 900+ remote professionals in the Philippines, Wingman helps agents streamline their operations and improve efficiency.
This webinar is sponsored by Wingman: https://wingmangroup.com.au/tompanos/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tom Panos (00:00):
Real estate sales agents bring in the luxury cars,
but property management makesyou safe and gives you an
effortless, lucrative, fun lifeknowing that you've got
reoccurring revenue.
And, ladies and gentlemen,johnny Bell, who is one of the
founders of Wingman, a businessthat specialises in remote
(00:24):
professionals and offshores, oneof the companies that I'm
actually both an ambassador butI'm also the client, because I
use Wingman services, and let metell you, I love them.
I love them.
I love them to the point that Iwent to the Philippines with
them last year and I'm goingback to the Philippines this
(00:47):
year.
And Jonathan Bell, to me, isone of the great thought leaders
in the PM space.
And why wouldn't he be whenthis man here has built a
property management businesswith 3,000 in only a few years?
In fact, what did you do in newmanagements in April, jonathan?
Jonathan Bell (01:07):
123 new managements.
Tom Panos (01:10):
Okay, 123 new managements.
Because what they've done ispioneered how to make PM sales
right.
That's what they've done.
They've taken away the model ofsales in the world and they
have brought it into PM in atime when people thought oh no,
(01:31):
it's different.
Pm is an accounting job.
It's quite different.
So, jono, firstly I want to askyou we're going to talk part
business development, but also,you know, structuring your
property management business.
Like how long is a piece ofstring when it comes to how many
(01:56):
properties a property managershould do?
Like I get different answers.
Like I have people saying to meoh Tom, I can't do too much
more in sales because I've gotthis rent roll of 40 properties
as well as me doing selling.
Then I have other people say,oh, my property manager's doing
150.
I never get a standardisedanswer right, whereas in real
(02:17):
estate sales I know that there'scertain standardised answers.
I know to do a mill, you've gotto do roughly 25 appraisals.
Standardised answers Like Iknow to do a mill, you've got to
do roughly 25 appraisals.
So how many properties does aproperty manager have the
ability to manage?
Jonathan Bell (02:38):
I think the industry average is around 120
managements per property manager.
Our whole model is very muchmore.
We've taken the EBU approach ofsales and put it into property
management.
So our senior property managersto have a role in our business,
our senior property managershave to manage a minimum of 250
properties.
We've got one property managerwho manages just under 400
properties about 385 propertiesa senior PM in our business.
(03:00):
So they're doing about doublethe workload.
Tom Panos (03:03):
Okay, One moment.
Steve has asked is anyonehaving audio issues?
Jonathan Bell (03:10):
No, no one else is having audio issues.
Okay, perfect, excuse me, but Ihope you can hear us.
Tom Panos (03:15):
Head back into Harvey Norman.
Let's get a system set up.
Bang, let's go.
Top of the works.
Everything Ask for the works.
So, jono, so $250?
.
Top of the works, everythingask for the works, get so, jono,
um, so 250.
Yeah man, what's do they do?
They blow a head gasket to do250 properties.
(03:39):
What's your experience withthat?
Jonathan Bell (03:41):
no, like it's been, um, it's, it's been
probably the model that's givenus the most the ability to grow
the way that we have.
So the way that we'vestructured it is, we've got an
average of 600 managements pertwo seniors, so an average of
300 managements each.
They do all of the landlordcommunication.
So really, when you think aboutit, the as a property manager
(04:02):
you get paid by the propertymanager, you get paid by the
landlord to manage the propertyfor the landlord.
So basically that is, their jobis to build relationships and
manage the landlord's investment.
So our two seniors, their roleis to be able to manage the
property for the landlord.
Then we have a junior propertymanager who basically sits
between the two seniors and doesall of the entries, exits and
(04:25):
routines on behalf of those twoseniors.
And there's some really goodtech around that now you can do
360 reports and be able tomanage that.
And then basically both seniorsthen have an executive
assistant through Wingman thatdo all of the tenant
communication, all the leaserenewals, arrange all the
routine inspection reports,arrange all the routine
inspection reports, organize allthe open homes on a Saturday,
(04:48):
do all the lease renewalsliterally the 90% of the role.
So it frees up the seniorproperty managers to only focus
on the relationships, becausewhen you look at like a property
manager's job, 70 to 80% oftheir role is administration.
It's not actually relationshipbuilding when property
management is relationshipbuilding.
So two seniors junior propertymanager does all of the out of
(05:11):
office because a good seniorproperty manager doesn't want to
do routine inspections, likewhen they get to a certain part
of their career.
They don't want to be drivingaround doing routines, entries
and exits and then how do youthen strip away the 80% of the
admin?
That's where we've usedoffshore, that we've fully
trained to do all of thatbackend admin and also reply to
all of our tenants.
They follow up tradies, theycall our tradies, they book in
(05:34):
all the maintenance work, theyfollow up all the quotes.
So it frees up the senior andreally our senior's job is to be
calling landlords and buildingrelationships.
Tom Panos (05:43):
Okay, so Jason Rose is one of the great real estate
agents and a good client of minein Canberra has just asked the
question Jason.
I hope that's been answeredbecause I think Jason just said
can you explain?
Yes, it's answered it.
Thanks, jason.
Then the next question Oliverhas asked would you class them
(06:04):
more as relationship managers?
Jonathan Bell (06:06):
Yeah, literally Like the only.
We used to call themrelationship managers, but then
our landlord said what is thatLike?
The industry knows them asproperty managers, so the
landlords wanted to think ofthem more as a property manager.
But ultimately they arerelationship managers and really
like they're actually teamleaders because they've got a
team under them, they've gottheir junior and then they've
got their two EAs that theymanage.
(06:27):
And a challenge in the propertymanagement industry is, after
about two years, every propertymanager wants to become a team
leader and you can't just have ateam of team leaders.
So it's a really good way togive your property managers an
ability to become a team leaderwhilst also managing a portfolio
and generating revenue.
So it creates like a win, win.
Win because it means that theproperty manager wins because
(06:49):
you can pay them substantiallymore.
Like our vision is to have thehighest paid property managers
in the country.
If we can pay our propertymanagers more than anyone else,
we also.
Then the property managerdoesn't have to do out of office
activities, so there's a tickthere.
It means they can work fromhome as well and have autonomy
over their role, which thenmeans you get better staff
retention, which means that theclients are really happy because
(07:11):
the biggest gripe in theproperty management industry is
they say, I'll get a newproperty manager every seven
months.
And then it also means thebusiness is more profitable.
Like our PM, business runs over30% profit margins, including
our BDM salary in our profit andloss, so we're a very highly
profitable business.
Our clients get a really goodservice and our PMs earn really
(07:34):
good money.
Tom Panos (07:36):
You know what I just thought of when you were talking
about relationship manager andI thought are the guys?
So I use four differentproperty managers.
Part of it's got to do withlocation right, or I bought them
off an agent.
It was just too easy, john, I'mnot joking.
I can't remember one of themringing me up and asking me to
(08:01):
take other managements to them.
There's no one that's takenthat role to actually look.
I'll be honest with you Iactually hate it when they ring
because it normally means it'scosting me money.
I actually hate it when theycall.
When I see their number come upon my screen, I know that at
the end of that phone call Iwill be poorer, not richer yeah
(08:26):
right and how do you?
Jonathan Bell (08:28):
that's our whole model is how do you change that?
So we, like our whole model isum, every time we get a lease
renewal or we increase the rent,our property managers call the
landlord to give them the goodnews.
Um, every time that we do aroute, juniors do a routine and
the property's in really goodcondition, our property managers
are calling them saying hey,really good news.
Your property manager, yourtenant, is looking after the
(08:49):
property.
So the way that we've built itis how do you create that trust?
And calling them with good newstypically means that they want
to answer the phone a bit moreand then they're more receptive
to the bad news when it comes aswell.
Tom Panos (09:03):
Okay.
So I want to repeat all thatJohn's done in his model is use
the effective business unit,where you've got the person
that's the most skilled at thetop as the property manager.
He's then got two people, sothe pods are made of three
people, so two seniors, onejunior.
Jonathan Bell (09:23):
Yeah, so who are all?
Three are three people, so twoseniors, one junior.
Tom Panos (09:26):
Yeah.
Jonathan Bell (09:27):
Who are.
All three are onshore.
So your seniors, your juniors,you know someone who just runs
around, you know field officerand then two EAs in the
Philippines where you get highlyyou know highly skilled people
in the Philippines for afraction of the cost.
Tom Panos (09:41):
Can you just tell me roughly in terms of and I know
that you're in the Brisbanemarket and I know that salaries
around Australia differ Sydney,what have you cost of living In
Brisbane, roughly that model?
What's it cost for a headproperty manager?
What's it cost for thedifferent roles?
Jonathan Bell (09:59):
So senior property manager minimum now 90
grand, plus super, and then yourjunior property manager is 55
to 70 in between that range, andthen your executive assistants
in the Philippines are 30,000 ayear.
Tom Panos (10:15):
Okay, beautiful.
Now what We've heard of idealdays, ideal weeks and in sales,
you know, like they're out,there, there's.
I mean, I've got in the realestate gym, 20 of them, they're
everywhere.
You know, ideal weeks areeverywhere.
But I've always been curioushow do you structure a perfect
(10:37):
day for a property manager whentheir whole life is?
Hey, the hot water's notworking.
Whatever you know, interruptionafter interruption.
Jonathan Bell (10:50):
We did this.
So when we were scaling, wewent from 300 managements to
1,000 in one year.
It was 2022.
And I brought in like I wasBDMing for the first three years
and bringing all themanagements in.
So it was really personal to me.
So we lost one month.
I think we lost about 10managements from service in one
month and I lost it.
I was so upset because Ibrought those managements in.
(11:11):
I had relationships with thosepeople.
It was a tough time to see that.
So I went into the office and Isaid to my senior PMs right,
you've got one KPI.
You just have to call and speakto 15 landlords every day.
You can work from home.
This is through the COVID.
You can work from home.
You can do whatever you want.
You can have a four-day week, Idon't care.
You have to speak to 15landlords a day.
(11:33):
That is your number one.
And in return, I'm going togive you a junior property
manager.
I'm giving you offshore support.
I'm doing all of the backendfor you.
That's all I ask.
The following month, when we didthat, we didn't lose one
management from service.
It was the most fascinatingthing and when you think about
it, if you speak to 15 landlordsa day, that's 75 landlords a
(11:55):
week, that's 150 landlords ofFortnite and that's 300
landlords a month.
So you're speaking to everysingle landlord once a month.
You literally can't lose.
And there's all these newautomations and systems, but
really all that's trying to dois to give time back to the
property manager so they can beon the phone to their landlords.
(12:17):
And I think if there's onetakeaway from today if you get
your property managers, if yousupport your property managers,
to be able to spend time doing15 outbound calls and connects a
day, a lot of your problemswill go away.
Tom Panos (12:31):
Now I've got to say Jono, we do a lot of prospecting
in the sales side of the realestate gym.
So I've got data now that showsthat 10 have met calls, people
that you've met and have arelationship which is quite
different to cold prospectingand yours.
They're warm calls, man.
(12:52):
Not only are they a have met,they're already a client right.
So I think you would knock 10over in an hour for sure, right
In an hour.
This is not like a three-,four-hour job.
Oh, half my day's gone.
There you have a list of people.
You can stand up, go througheach call three to four minutes.
(13:15):
So you're saying for you 15calls.
That was your KPI.
That you were saying Was it 10or 15?
Jonathan Bell (13:23):
you said 15 a day , that's all.
And you'd be surprised, though,tom like you when I said that's
my team.
They're like I don't have timeto do 15 calls a day.
I'm doing this, I'm doing this,I'm doing this.
So, as a leader, I think it'sour responsibility and property
management to go okay.
Well, what can I take away fromyou to give you more time so you
can do that?
Because you can't just go toyour property managers and say
(13:45):
here, you're already doing athousand tasks, here's one more
for you, because they are youknow their salary.
Most PMs are on salaries, soyou can't.
You know, at least in salesyou're incentivized to make the
calls.
You're not incentivized in PMto make the calls, so you have
to go okay.
Well, in return to giving youthis task, what will I take away
from you and that's somethingwe've done quite well with the
(14:05):
Wingman team is like if you giveyour property managers a
support staff member to takeaway those tasks, in return,
they will do the calls, whichwill increase your relationships
.
It means you'll bring in waymore managements and it means
your PMs will be a lot happierand your landlords.
Tom Panos (14:24):
Okay, rachel has just asked the purpose of the call.
What do you say when you'relike what's the typical call?
Sound like.
Jonathan Bell (14:32):
Yeah, I don't believe in good.
I don't believe in no peoplecall them, no reason calls.
I don't like it.
Like Tom.
If a property manager calledyou and said, hey Tom, just want
to check in, are you having agood day, you'd probably be like
I'm a bit busy to chat to youabout your day.
Tom Panos (14:47):
Well, I probably listen because I'm not a
confrontational person.
I'd be nice to them.
But I've got to tell you, Ireckon like if I saw them ring
my phone again, I probably wouldthink to myself it's a bit of a
non-event call, so I wouldn'tanswer it again.
So that's the end of it.
So you're saying there's got tobe a because, a purpose.
Jonathan Bell (15:11):
Yeah, hey, good news.
Wanted to let you know thatyour tenants have just re-signed
the lease for an extra $50 aweek.
Quick call While I've got you,Tom.
Have you got any otherproperties or are you looking to
buy in the next few months?
If you are, we're alwayslooking to support our landlords
with their growth journey andin their property investments.
Tom Panos (15:24):
Yeah, I actually think that a lot of the sales
type calls that happen inprospecting which we don't like
also, jono, in sales the noreason call or the check in or
the touch base call but whatthey are is things that have
come on the market around thearea, things that have been
leased or sold around the area,things about a new development
(15:46):
going into the area, what themarketplace is like at the
moment.
Right, there's always somethingthat you know you could do
obviously the routineinspections and all that sort of
stuff but what you're saying isdon't get into the habit of
calling to say I'm calling forno reason.
Jonathan Bell (16:05):
Yeah, I'm assuming, tom, if someone called
you and said, hey, just once,because when the lease goes out,
a landlord usually wants toknow what's going on.
Have they signed the lease, arethey staying?
So giving them when it's thatlike there's that angst period
with a landlord, hey, are theystaying, are they going, or were
they?
You know that hot water system?
You told me that it was.
You know it was broken.
(16:25):
Is it fixed?
Yet you know, I don't want mytenant not having hot water.
So when there's thatopportunity where landlords want
to know what's going on, that'swhen you strike.
Tom Panos (16:34):
And I reckon John, I think I would love it if
property managers involved inthe offices that I'm dealing
with as a landlord rang me up tosay hey, tommy, nothing serious
, but a property down the roadfrom you has just been leased
out.
Or hey, tommy, even better.
(16:56):
I know that you're not selling,but I want to let you know our
sales team sold number 47 inyour street for 1.8 mil.
Mate, you're looking good.
I know that you're not sellingright and I really feel like
that to me would be added value,even though it's a sales
element.
But it's my asset and I don'tcare whether I'm looking at my
(17:18):
asset as a rent or looking at myasset as how much equity I'm
sitting in.
That's still valuable to me.
I just want to ask you, jono,can you?
Jonathan Bell (17:28):
manage.
Rachel wants to manage yourproperties, Tom.
Tom Panos (17:33):
Rachel.
Thanks for asking, rachel.
Type out where you are.
Yeah, he shared that script.
Thanks, conrad.
Someone asked before do you usethe Manage app for trust
accounting?
Jonathan Bell (17:50):
No, we don't.
I won't say it live online,because we have a partnership
with a lot of prop techs, so weuse one of the prominent prop
tech companies and I think thatthey're all great, and I don't
think you should overanalysewhich one you choose.
I think you should just makesure that you learn it the best
you can and don't have 15different tech subscriptions.
(18:13):
Just pick one and nail it.
Tom Panos (18:15):
Yeah, I always say to people John, with technology
and CRM systems, they all work.
They need humans to work them.
Humans rarely work them.
Don't worry about the system,worry about your application to
the system.
Now Jason Rose has asked do youdo your own trust?
Jonathan Bell (18:34):
accounting.
Wingman does it.
So we've got in our business.
Because we're bringing on somany managements, we've got a
team of three offshore.
We've just employed our fourthin our trust accounting division
.
They do all of the water bills,they do all of the arrears,
they do all of the trustaccounting, they do all the
disbursements.
(18:54):
They even do all of our payroll.
So they manage all our propertymanagers leave entitlements,
they do payroll every fortnight.
Accounting is a very populartask.
In the philippines having anaccounting degree is quite
common and there's obviously nolanguage barriers with um, with
accounting.
So we've we've had some reallygood success with offshoring
that okay, um, hey ben, how yougoing?
Tom Panos (19:18):
are the trust accounting people communicating
verbally with landlords via Viaemail?
Via email, beautifulMaintenance and bills, is asked
by Jason again, all offshore.
Jonathan Bell (19:33):
And then, when you hear all this stuff, you
realise how much stuff yourproperty managers are doing that
they shouldn't be doing.
Tom Panos (19:39):
Okay, conrad's just asked curious in your market,
what is the average fee formanagements?
Jonathan Bell (19:46):
Yeah, we're a new farm which is quite an affluent
area, so we've got a reallygood market rent.
I think our average rent's $650to $670, and our average fee is
7% plus GST, which means ourdouble AMIs, which is your
average annual management income, which is what your asset's
valued on, is $2,200.
Tom Panos (20:07):
Okay, beautiful.
By the way, you know, jono, Idon't know.
I've never asked you this Doyou have, like, if there's
people watching this, becauseI'm noticing Ben, who's a great,
you know, ben, that office inBell actually there's five
offices in Bell, they're prettymuch all over the Hunter area If
(20:27):
these like, do you have aservice where, like, if they
want to see it in person, do youdo that?
Or do they ring you up?
Or how do you do it?
Jonathan Bell (20:39):
Yeah, we've actually got a roadshow in
Melbourne.
For any Melbourne agencies in,I think it's in June.
So we're basically flying allof our team to Melbourne and
we're hiring out a venue andwe're going to do we do a full,
we call it a roadshow.
We basically do a full day andwe talk all about how we've
grown, the way we have, how westructured our rent rolls, our
BDM speak, our team leadersspeak, so we do that.
(21:00):
And also, for anyone who wantsto come, we we've got um our
office.
We've got an open door policy.
We had a ray white office comein this morning.
So, um, people are welcome tocome and spend a few hours in
the business, because it allsounds great in theory, but I
think it's important for peopleto actually see it in action, um
, so we're very open to peoplecoming and seeing how do they
contact wingman for these things?
Tom Panos (21:21):
what's the?
What's the?
How does that work work?
Jonathan Bell (21:24):
I'll get.
I think Nick Georges is on thecall.
He might be able to put thelink to the Wingman, but
basically just register yourinquiry on the Wingman website.
Tom Panos (21:32):
So Susan, just in case Nick's not on there.
Susan, do you mind in the chatgroup just to type in the
Wingman?
Thanks, Susan, she's put thatin there.
It's in the chat group, Thankyou.
What does a full-time trustaccounting person cost is a
(21:53):
question that Ben's asked.
Jonathan Bell (21:55):
About $30,000 a year, same as any offshore.
Tom Panos (21:59):
And then one question , and then I'm going to ask you
a couple more myself.
What workflow patterns do youuse?
Or you can't inform, whatworkflow platform do you use?
Jonathan Bell (22:13):
So within our software there's a project
management tool that we've builtout all the processes and the
systems in there.
Part of what we do at Wingmanis like offshoring is only as
good as the system behind it,which we've learned.
So you can't just put anoffshore person in and say, hey,
manage all of our stuff.
You have to build a reallystrong process and a system
behind it.
So we've got 17 staff onshoreand basically what we do is we
(22:37):
go into businesses and we helpthem build out their processes
and their systems.
So we can definitely help withthat.
But basically, within yourproperty management software you
can build out all yourprocesses and systems.
If you don't a mondaycom orTrello.
They're all very similar, but Ido believe that you should try
and do it all within the onesystem.
(22:57):
Otherwise, every time you'vegot a staff member there's
double handling and then theywon't update one side of the
system and then they'll updatethe other and then it gets
really clunky.
Okay, Beautiful.
Tom Panos (23:08):
So, yeah, nick is on, but he's put down.
Susan was quicker than Nick,that's right, that's not hard.
Wow, hey, john, I'm going tobring it up after.
I'm going to bring up thatvideo on that pickleball guy.
But I want to give you very,very, very briefly the do's and
(23:30):
don'ts of offshoring andproperty management.
You've been the subject and thescientist in your own business.
You've also been able to getthe feedback from your clients
over the years and I saw a lotof them I mean guys and girls,
we're talking about some seriousbusinesses when I was in Manila
I don't normally end up havinga lot of time with big property
(23:52):
management people, right,because that's not my life but
here I was for a week and I'msitting next to people that have
got rent rolls of $1,000,$2,000 that have been using your
model, right, and it isabsolutely remarkable.
But I'm sure you've learnedwhat to do and what to not do
(24:12):
using offshoring.
So what can you share there?
Jonathan Bell (24:15):
Just on that, tom , I used to say it's the
quickest way to become amillionaire is to have a rent
role.
All you need to do is sign 200managements approximately 200
managements and you have amillion dollar asset as an asset
class.
It is an amazing asset.
You get cash flow If you're insales.
If you leave that area and goto a new area, your whole IP is
(24:43):
gone.
You're known in that area, soif you want to move from Sydney
to Melbourne, you get trappedbecause you have to start again.
But in property management it'san amazing business model that
is cash flow positive and it'snot reliant on one person.
So being able to surroundmyself with those people, it is
once you crack the code and youcan really focus on organic
growth.
(25:03):
It's life-changing.
Tom Panos (25:06):
Beautiful.
And, listen, I agree with you100% because I actually think
sales, the sales side of realestate, it's got some pretty
strong performers, rightperformers, right, whereas in PM
(25:29):
it has never really been, it'snever really had that sales
element to it.
And now if you move in, you'regoing to have that first move
advantage.
So the opportunity is golden,tim.
I've got to share with this.
So I play pickleballoccasionally with Nick Georges
and John.
I didn't talk about it, he's anex-professional tennis player.
He used to play the circuit andI was playing and I showed Nick
(25:51):
Georges a video.
I said this is the guy thatcoaches here at these pickleball
courts.
He was.
I think he was there that day.
Oh, he wasn't there that day,nick, he was there and I showed
it to him.
I go do you reckon Jono canbeat him?
And he goes listen, I'll letyou know.
Jono reckons he can beat anyonein pickleball, simple as that.
So I've got to share it withyou here.
(26:12):
Jono, like this is the guy, theguy in the white cap look at
that underneath his legs justmaking this guy there.
So, jono, could you see all ofthat?
Jonathan Bell (26:34):
Yeah, you sent it to me.
I'm still.
Yeah, I sent it to you justbefore did.
Tom Panos (26:38):
I, yeah.
So I'm going to see him nextfew days.
Can I tell him that you'regoing to come over and just
teach him?
I'll say, mate, this guy o'bill, he's in property management,
he reckons he goes, I'll comeand sort him out.
Can I say that to him?
100, okay, beautiful.
Is that?
Is there any is?
Is there anything else?
(26:58):
On the do's and don'ts ofoffshoring, we didn't touch on
that yeah, yeah, I mean, um,I've learned the hard way from
it.
Jonathan Bell (27:05):
Like I think that the that it was really
interesting.
Firstly, you need to make sureyou've got really trained staff
in the philippines, like you,you, the filipino culture is
extremely different.
Which thomas saw is they don'tknow what a landlord is.
They don't know what a tenantis.
They don't know what a tradieis like that.
You need to teach them that.
So one thing we learned is wehave to build a training academy
so they're fully trained.
(27:25):
That's number one.
But interestingly, the harderpart is actually teaching your
Australian property managers howto delegate.
For most property managers whohave been in the industry for
five years, they're verycontrolling of their portfolio.
They're protective of theirtenants.
They're protective of theirlandlords.
They don't want to delegate.
It's their role.
So you actually have to teachyour own team.
(27:46):
Okay, this is what you delegate, this is what you don't
delegate.
This is how you manage yourteam.
So you should be having a 15minute strategy session with
your offshore every morning tosee what they're doing every
afternoon.
What did you complete?
What didn't you complete?
What are your challenges?
Like?
They might seem simple to a lotof people on this call, but to
property managers.
They've never managed a team oranyone before.
(28:09):
So it's actually, I think stepone is training the offshore and
getting them really wellengaged, but then also step two
is actually teaching yourproperty managers how to
delegate and also what thebenefit of that is to them.
So you need to paint thepicture.
If you can delegate really welland you can help your portfolio
go from 120 to 200, what doesthat mean your property manager
can earn?
What's the income for yourproperty manager?
(28:30):
And giving them a really clearplan.
If you get to $200,000management, your salary goes
from $70,000 to $90,000.
If you get from $250,000management to $300,000
management, happy to pay you$120,000.
And if you give them that planand incentivize them along the
way and actually show them howto do it, it's life-changing.
(28:50):
If you've got a really goodoffshore team, every single
client that we have who comes onboard and does it well says I
can't believe I used to run mybusiness without this, but it
takes time and you've got toshare the vision with your
Australian team as well.
Tom Panos (29:04):
Beautiful and I'm happy that Steve Hatz is back
online because he's replied.
Great advice which says to methat you were able to pick up
the volume and sound.
Great to have you back.
Steve Jono, what would be yourbest piece of advice this has
come from Oliver in gettingthose systems for offshoring in
(29:24):
place.
So let's assume the theory isthere and let's assume someone's
sitting there thinking that'sit.
I'm sick and tired of beingsick and tired and not having my
rent roll being biw best in theworld.
This sounds attractive to me.
What would be your best pieceof advice in moving forward?
Jonathan Bell (29:43):
yeah, I mean it sounds biased, but I've done it
before and it works really well.
I'd have a strategy session withthe wingman team, um, talk to
them about what your goals areand, um, and build a really good
strategy over the next 12months about how you're going to
improve your processes, improveyour systems, go for little
wins.
Like you know, don't don't tryand revolutionize everything
(30:04):
tomorrow, like, all right, let'snail the lease renewal process
now.
Let's nail the lease.
Let's nail the arrears process.
Let's find a champion in ouroffice who's who wants to drive
this and wants career growth,and let's try it with them first
.
So I would do a few littlethings like that, but the whole
you know, the whole idea ofwingman is for um, you know,
(30:25):
property management's changed mylife and and I get a lot of joy
out of helping other people dothe same.
So it's something that theWingman team actively do every
day.
So I'd book a strategy sessionin and share where you want to
go in your business and they dothat through that link, that,
susan there, they can do itthrough there.
Tom Panos (30:44):
Yep, okay, finally, and I'm so excited it's in my
diary.
Okay, finally, and I'm soexcited it's in my diary, in
fact, jono, let me make sureit's in there because I know the
dates have changed to make itreally friendly for people to be
able to go there and not, youknow, because there's a lot of
business owners that are on thisright now and I want them to be
(31:06):
able to attend this event.
So, off the top of my head, theevent for Manila, the retreat
which involves Manila, then goesto a regional area to get a
real feel of what thePhilippines is like, and then to
finish it off at Boracay, andthis is all layered with
(31:29):
learning and networkingthroughout, and it's tax
deductible.
And let me tell you, you're notgoing to Monaco or you'll get
incredible bang for buck in thatcountry, right?
So the event, jono, is Susan,maybe Susan's done that already
(31:51):
about the retreat Beautiful,sorry, nick.
Nick, if this was sale of thecentury, you wouldn't be invited
back next week.
You haven't pressed the buzzer,you haven't pressed the buzzer
right.
And then Alan has said how greatis property management?
That's what we wanted to do.
We've got to make it where, man, people are saying it's great.
And I've got to tell you whyit's great.
(32:11):
Because at the end of a 30-yearreal estate career, I've got to
tell you you won't have asingle commission left in your
wallet but you'll have a bigrent roll that's worth millions
and squillions of dollars.
That is seen by a bank to benearly equivalent to actual real
estate as an asset base, right?
So the conference, jono, is infact.
(32:37):
What am I doing?
Mid-september, it'smid-September, in fact.
Here it is there team, let'sbring it up here.
That is the conferencePhilippines 3.0.
Jeez, I had a good time there.
Jonathan Bell (32:55):
So, tom, we rented.
This year We've gone big, werented a whole island.
So when we get there, we spendone night in Manila and then we
catch a bus to a place and thenwe get a boat to an island, so
that we've got the whole island.
Um, and it's pretty cool.
Like we we've already figuredout, there's going to be I think
(33:16):
it's 10 of the 20 biggest realestate property management
businesses owners are all goingto be there.
So it's going to be like from anetworking point of view,
because there's not many, notmany um industry events that are
only, like, really focused onPM or have a lot of PM leaders
there.
So it's a big focus of ours tomake sure that sales is.
There'll be a lot of salespeople there, but also a lot of
(33:38):
business owners with big rentroles, like last year.
Tom Panos (33:41):
You know, together with the remote professionals
and the contingent fromAustralia, slash New Zealand.
We're looking at what around700 people, you reckon.
Jonathan Bell (33:52):
Yeah, I think we'll have 600 Filipinos there,
which is really special, andthen between 150 and 300 Aussies
and New Zealanders.
Tom Panos (34:02):
And let me tell you, outside of real estate, there is
something invigorating,inspiring and really motivating
to go to another place to have alook at certain things like
time it takes to get to workthere, what living conditions
(34:23):
are like, what cost of living islike, what you get for your
salary.
And then when you come back andyou land at your airport, you
come back thinking, man, my lifeis made, I've got it made here.
What am I complaining about?
What am I whinging about?
Because you're able to actuallyfeel, smell, touch what it's
(34:47):
like for others and let me tellyou they would swap spots in an
instant.
And for me, one of the real bigvalues I've noticed about
offshore workers is that you getand right now I accept that
part of it has been our economicconditions which have meant
(35:10):
that we basically had, for manyyears, hardly any unemployment.
So you weren't getting thatcommitted.
I'm all in employee for you.
You were getting that employee.
Oh, if you're going to say thatto me, I need you to know I
have options.
Right.
The fact that in Manila theydon't have that many options,
(35:32):
the value of that role is like.
I will treat this like it's thebest job in the world and I say
that because I look Princessmight even be.
Susan is Princess on here?
Jonathan Bell (35:45):
Yeah, she is.
Do you want to bring her on?
Tom Panos (35:49):
It's not necessary because I've realised I've got
to rush to get somewhere.
But listen, I feel guilty now.
I mean we might be putting heron the spot.
If she wants to come on, shecan come on.
Susan, maybe you?
Jonathan Bell (36:01):
She's the co-host , so she can come on if she
wants to.
Tom Panos (36:04):
Right, yeah, she can come on if she wants to.
Right, I'm putting her on thespot there.
She actually was one of thepeople that was involved with
the Wingman Conference inSeptember, which was called
Profit, which, by the way, I'vehad a lot of people say very,
very rarely in real estate doyou actually have you know?
(36:24):
Someone asked me the other dayJono, he goes, everyone's happy
to punch their GCI on theirsocial media posts.
They don't like putting theirprofit up there.
What's the reason why I said,listen, I'm not quite sure.
I think no one really talksabout profit that much.
But what's Jono done here?
He's admitted someone in.
Jonathan Bell (36:44):
I think he's frozen and he's rejoining oh
right, he's rejoining, Got it.
Tom Panos (36:49):
So, Susan, you want to have a look out for him While
we're on there.
Ladies and gentlemen, it wouldbe remiss of me not to show you
what the EBU model, what the EBUmodel, looks like in real
estate, right?
So I'm just going to quicklyjust share that while Jono comes
(37:11):
back on.
So what you're doing, this isan effective business unit model
in real estate sales, right?
It's got roles of team members.
So Jono's back right.
Jonathan Bell (37:23):
Sorry, Tom, my computer carved it.
Tom Panos (37:25):
Johnny, I was just buying some time there, so I
basically just returned to them.
So I want to let people knowthis is I've got to tell you you
can get a wingman person to doa lot of middle row, some of
right row, and I've got to letyou know that I have never, ever
(37:49):
seen a real estate agent havean epic business without an epic
team.
It's like there comes a time inlife, you know, like when it's
to get a mobile phone, therecomes a time in life where you
thought I better get a mobilephone right.
Like I reckon that's wherewe're at with that assistant man
(38:11):
, like that's a no-brainer.
Now, I know that we're talkingabout sales, but you know the
average salesperson's gettingfees of 15 or 20 grand.
I reckon you pay for yourassistant or associate remote
professional within the firsttwo weeks out of a 52-week year,
(38:32):
like there are certain thingsthat are 50-50.
There are certain things that,oh, that's a good idea and there
are certain things is that's ano-brainer and that's what it is
.
Thank you, Jason.
Jono, it is just about quarterpast five.
Thank you so much.
Jonathan Bell (38:50):
Thanks Tom.
Thanks guys Appreciate it.
Anyone who wants moreinformation or any checklists or
task lists, please reach out.
We're happy to share everythingwe've got.
Tom Panos (39:00):
Well, there you go.
Sarah says thank you.
Steve says can I just saycongratulations on your success,
Jonathan, Thank you for sharing, Wishing you the best.
You got it all together.
You're a very inspiring guy.
Yeah, we'll see how inspiringhe is on that pickleball call.
Kyle's going to be waiting forhim.
Thank you a lot, Jason.
Listen, it's all positive.
Thanks a lot, Jono.
Jonathan Bell (39:22):
Thank you, tom, appreciate it, see you guys.
Thanks a lot.
Real estate sales agents bring in the luxury cars,
but property management makesyou safe and gives you an
effortless, lucrative, fun lifeknowing that you've got
reoccurring revenue.
And, ladies and gentlemen,johnny Bell, who is one of the
founders of Wingman, a businessthat specialises in remote
(00:24):
professionals and offshores, oneof the companies that I'm
actually both an ambassador butI'm also the client, because I
use Wingman services, and let metell you, I love them.
I love them.
I love them to the point that Iwent to the Philippines with
them last year and I'm goingback to the Philippines this
(00:47):
year.
And Jonathan Bell, to me, isone of the great thought leaders
in the PM space.
And why wouldn't he be whenthis man here has built a
property management businesswith 3,000 in only a few years?
In fact, what did you do in newmanagements in April, jonathan?
Jonathan Bell (01:07):
123 new managements.
Tom Panos (01:10):
Okay, 123 new managements.
Because what they've done ispioneered how to make PM sales
right.
That's what they've done.
They've taken away the model ofsales in the world and they
have brought it into PM in atime when people thought oh no,
(01:31):
it's different.
Pm is an accounting job.
It's quite different.
So, jono, firstly I want to askyou we're going to talk part
business development, but also,you know, structuring your
property management business.
Like how long is a piece ofstring when it comes to how many
(01:56):
properties a property managershould do?
Like I get different answers.
Like I have people saying to meoh Tom, I can't do too much
more in sales because I've gotthis rent roll of 40 properties
as well as me doing selling.
Then I have other people say,oh, my property manager's doing
150.
I never get a standardisedanswer right, whereas in real
(02:17):
estate sales I know that there'scertain standardised answers.
I know to do a mill, you've gotto do roughly 25 appraisals.
Standardised answers Like Iknow to do a mill, you've got to
do roughly 25 appraisals.
So how many properties does aproperty manager have the
ability to manage?
Jonathan Bell (02:38):
I think the industry average is around 120
managements per property manager.
Our whole model is very muchmore.
We've taken the EBU approach ofsales and put it into property
management.
So our senior property managersto have a role in our business,
our senior property managershave to manage a minimum of 250
properties.
We've got one property managerwho manages just under 400
properties about 385 propertiesa senior PM in our business.
(03:00):
So they're doing about doublethe workload.
Tom Panos (03:03):
Okay, One moment.
Steve has asked is anyonehaving audio issues?
Jonathan Bell (03:10):
No, no one else is having audio issues.
Okay, perfect, excuse me, but Ihope you can hear us.
Tom Panos (03:15):
Head back into Harvey Norman.
Let's get a system set up.
Bang, let's go.
Top of the works.
Everything Ask for the works.
So, jono, so $250?
.
Top of the works, everythingask for the works, get so, jono,
um, so 250.
Yeah man, what's do they do?
They blow a head gasket to do250 properties.
(03:39):
What's your experience withthat?
Jonathan Bell (03:41):
no, like it's been, um, it's, it's been
probably the model that's givenus the most the ability to grow
the way that we have.
So the way that we'vestructured it is, we've got an
average of 600 managements pertwo seniors, so an average of
300 managements each.
They do all of the landlordcommunication.
So really, when you think aboutit, the as a property manager
(04:02):
you get paid by the propertymanager, you get paid by the
landlord to manage the propertyfor the landlord.
So basically that is, their jobis to build relationships and
manage the landlord's investment.
So our two seniors, their roleis to be able to manage the
property for the landlord.
Then we have a junior propertymanager who basically sits
between the two seniors and doesall of the entries, exits and
(04:25):
routines on behalf of those twoseniors.
And there's some really goodtech around that now you can do
360 reports and be able tomanage that.
And then basically both seniorsthen have an executive
assistant through Wingman thatdo all of the tenant
communication, all the leaserenewals, arrange all the
routine inspection reports,arrange all the routine
inspection reports, organize allthe open homes on a Saturday,
(04:48):
do all the lease renewalsliterally the 90% of the role.
So it frees up the seniorproperty managers to only focus
on the relationships, becausewhen you look at like a property
manager's job, 70 to 80% oftheir role is administration.
It's not actually relationshipbuilding when property
management is relationshipbuilding.
So two seniors junior propertymanager does all of the out of
(05:11):
office because a good seniorproperty manager doesn't want to
do routine inspections, likewhen they get to a certain part
of their career.
They don't want to be drivingaround doing routines, entries
and exits and then how do youthen strip away the 80% of the
admin?
That's where we've usedoffshore, that we've fully
trained to do all of thatbackend admin and also reply to
all of our tenants.
They follow up tradies, theycall our tradies, they book in
(05:34):
all the maintenance work, theyfollow up all the quotes.
So it frees up the senior andreally our senior's job is to be
calling landlords and buildingrelationships.
Tom Panos (05:43):
Okay, so Jason Rose is one of the great real estate
agents and a good client of minein Canberra has just asked the
question Jason.
I hope that's been answeredbecause I think Jason just said
can you explain?
Yes, it's answered it.
Thanks, jason.
Then the next question Oliverhas asked would you class them
(06:04):
more as relationship managers?
Jonathan Bell (06:06):
Yeah, literally Like the only.
We used to call themrelationship managers, but then
our landlord said what is thatLike?
The industry knows them asproperty managers, so the
landlords wanted to think ofthem more as a property manager.
But ultimately they arerelationship managers and really
like they're actually teamleaders because they've got a
team under them, they've gottheir junior and then they've
got their two EAs that theymanage.
(06:27):
And a challenge in the propertymanagement industry is, after
about two years, every propertymanager wants to become a team
leader and you can't just have ateam of team leaders.
So it's a really good way togive your property managers an
ability to become a team leaderwhilst also managing a portfolio
and generating revenue.
So it creates like a win, win.
Win because it means that theproperty manager wins because
(06:49):
you can pay them substantiallymore.
Like our vision is to have thehighest paid property managers
in the country.
If we can pay our propertymanagers more than anyone else,
we also.
Then the property managerdoesn't have to do out of office
activities, so there's a tickthere.
It means they can work fromhome as well and have autonomy
over their role, which thenmeans you get better staff
retention, which means that theclients are really happy because
(07:11):
the biggest gripe in theproperty management industry is
they say, I'll get a newproperty manager every seven
months.
And then it also means thebusiness is more profitable.
Like our PM, business runs over30% profit margins, including
our BDM salary in our profit andloss, so we're a very highly
profitable business.
Our clients get a really goodservice and our PMs earn really
(07:34):
good money.
Tom Panos (07:36):
You know what I just thought of when you were talking
about relationship manager andI thought are the guys?
So I use four differentproperty managers.
Part of it's got to do withlocation right, or I bought them
off an agent.
It was just too easy, john, I'mnot joking.
I can't remember one of themringing me up and asking me to
(08:01):
take other managements to them.
There's no one that's takenthat role to actually look.
I'll be honest with you Iactually hate it when they ring
because it normally means it'scosting me money.
I actually hate it when theycall.
When I see their number come upon my screen, I know that at
the end of that phone call Iwill be poorer, not richer yeah
(08:26):
right and how do you?
Jonathan Bell (08:28):
that's our whole model is how do you change that?
So we, like our whole model isum, every time we get a lease
renewal or we increase the rent,our property managers call the
landlord to give them the goodnews.
Um, every time that we do aroute, juniors do a routine and
the property's in really goodcondition, our property managers
are calling them saying hey,really good news.
Your property manager, yourtenant, is looking after the
(08:49):
property.
So the way that we've built itis how do you create that trust?
And calling them with good newstypically means that they want
to answer the phone a bit moreand then they're more receptive
to the bad news when it comes aswell.
Tom Panos (09:03):
Okay.
So I want to repeat all thatJohn's done in his model is use
the effective business unit,where you've got the person
that's the most skilled at thetop as the property manager.
He's then got two people, sothe pods are made of three
people, so two seniors, onejunior.
Jonathan Bell (09:23):
Yeah, so who are all?
Three are three people, so twoseniors, one junior.
Tom Panos (09:26):
Yeah.
Jonathan Bell (09:27):
Who are.
All three are onshore.
So your seniors, your juniors,you know someone who just runs
around, you know field officerand then two EAs in the
Philippines where you get highlyyou know highly skilled people
in the Philippines for afraction of the cost.
Tom Panos (09:41):
Can you just tell me roughly in terms of and I know
that you're in the Brisbanemarket and I know that salaries
around Australia differ Sydney,what have you cost of living In
Brisbane, roughly that model?
What's it cost for a headproperty manager?
What's it cost for thedifferent roles?
Jonathan Bell (09:59):
So senior property manager minimum now 90
grand, plus super, and then yourjunior property manager is 55
to 70 in between that range, andthen your executive assistants
in the Philippines are 30,000 ayear.
Tom Panos (10:15):
Okay, beautiful.
Now what We've heard of idealdays, ideal weeks and in sales,
you know, like they're out,there, there's.
I mean, I've got in the realestate gym, 20 of them, they're
everywhere.
You know, ideal weeks areeverywhere.
But I've always been curioushow do you structure a perfect
(10:37):
day for a property manager whentheir whole life is?
Hey, the hot water's notworking.
Whatever you know, interruptionafter interruption.
Jonathan Bell (10:50):
We did this.
So when we were scaling, wewent from 300 managements to
1,000 in one year.
It was 2022.
And I brought in like I wasBDMing for the first three years
and bringing all themanagements in.
So it was really personal to me.
So we lost one month.
I think we lost about 10managements from service in one
month and I lost it.
I was so upset because Ibrought those managements in.
(11:11):
I had relationships with thosepeople.
It was a tough time to see that.
So I went into the office and Isaid to my senior PMs right,
you've got one KPI.
You just have to call and speakto 15 landlords every day.
You can work from home.
This is through the COVID.
You can work from home.
You can do whatever you want.
You can have a four-day week, Idon't care.
You have to speak to 15landlords a day.
(11:33):
That is your number one.
And in return, I'm going togive you a junior property
manager.
I'm giving you offshore support.
I'm doing all of the backendfor you.
That's all I ask.
The following month, when we didthat, we didn't lose one
management from service.
It was the most fascinatingthing and when you think about
it, if you speak to 15 landlordsa day, that's 75 landlords a
(11:55):
week, that's 150 landlords ofFortnite and that's 300
landlords a month.
So you're speaking to everysingle landlord once a month.
You literally can't lose.
And there's all these newautomations and systems, but
really all that's trying to dois to give time back to the
property manager so they can beon the phone to their landlords.
(12:17):
And I think if there's onetakeaway from today if you get
your property managers, if yousupport your property managers,
to be able to spend time doing15 outbound calls and connects a
day, a lot of your problemswill go away.
Tom Panos (12:31):
Now I've got to say Jono, we do a lot of prospecting
in the sales side of the realestate gym.
So I've got data now that showsthat 10 have met calls, people
that you've met and have arelationship which is quite
different to cold prospectingand yours.
They're warm calls, man.
(12:52):
Not only are they a have met,they're already a client right.
So I think you would knock 10over in an hour for sure, right
In an hour.
This is not like a three-,four-hour job.
Oh, half my day's gone.
There you have a list of people.
You can stand up, go througheach call three to four minutes.
(13:15):
So you're saying for you 15calls.
That was your KPI.
That you were saying Was it 10or 15?
Jonathan Bell (13:23):
you said 15 a day , that's all.
And you'd be surprised, though,tom like you when I said that's
my team.
They're like I don't have timeto do 15 calls a day.
I'm doing this, I'm doing this,I'm doing this.
So, as a leader, I think it'sour responsibility and property
management to go okay.
Well, what can I take away fromyou to give you more time so you
can do that?
Because you can't just go toyour property managers and say
(13:45):
here, you're already doing athousand tasks, here's one more
for you, because they are youknow their salary.
Most PMs are on salaries, soyou can't.
You know, at least in salesyou're incentivized to make the
calls.
You're not incentivized in PMto make the calls, so you have
to go okay.
Well, in return to giving youthis task, what will I take away
from you and that's somethingwe've done quite well with the
(14:05):
Wingman team is like if you giveyour property managers a
support staff member to takeaway those tasks, in return,
they will do the calls, whichwill increase your relationships
.
It means you'll bring in waymore managements and it means
your PMs will be a lot happierand your landlords.
Tom Panos (14:24):
Okay, rachel has just asked the purpose of the call.
What do you say when you'relike what's the typical call?
Sound like.
Jonathan Bell (14:32):
Yeah, I don't believe in good.
I don't believe in no peoplecall them, no reason calls.
I don't like it.
Like Tom.
If a property manager calledyou and said, hey Tom, just want
to check in, are you having agood day, you'd probably be like
I'm a bit busy to chat to youabout your day.
Tom Panos (14:47):
Well, I probably listen because I'm not a
confrontational person.
I'd be nice to them.
But I've got to tell you, Ireckon like if I saw them ring
my phone again, I probably wouldthink to myself it's a bit of a
non-event call, so I wouldn'tanswer it again.
So that's the end of it.
So you're saying there's got tobe a because, a purpose.
Jonathan Bell (15:11):
Yeah, hey, good news.
Wanted to let you know thatyour tenants have just re-signed
the lease for an extra $50 aweek.
Quick call While I've got you,Tom.
Have you got any otherproperties or are you looking to
buy in the next few months?
If you are, we're alwayslooking to support our landlords
with their growth journey andin their property investments.
Tom Panos (15:24):
Yeah, I actually think that a lot of the sales
type calls that happen inprospecting which we don't like
also, jono, in sales the noreason call or the check in or
the touch base call but whatthey are is things that have
come on the market around thearea, things that have been
leased or sold around the area,things about a new development
(15:46):
going into the area, what themarketplace is like at the
moment.
Right, there's always somethingthat you know you could do
obviously the routineinspections and all that sort of
stuff but what you're saying isdon't get into the habit of
calling to say I'm calling forno reason.
Jonathan Bell (16:05):
Yeah, I'm assuming, tom, if someone called
you and said, hey, just once,because when the lease goes out,
a landlord usually wants toknow what's going on.
Have they signed the lease, arethey staying?
So giving them when it's thatlike there's that angst period
with a landlord, hey, are theystaying, are they going, or were
they?
You know that hot water system?
You told me that it was.
You know it was broken.
(16:25):
Is it fixed?
Yet you know, I don't want mytenant not having hot water.
So when there's thatopportunity where landlords want
to know what's going on, that'swhen you strike.
Tom Panos (16:34):
And I reckon John, I think I would love it if
property managers involved inthe offices that I'm dealing
with as a landlord rang me up tosay hey, tommy, nothing serious
, but a property down the roadfrom you has just been leased
out.
Or hey, tommy, even better.
(16:56):
I know that you're not selling,but I want to let you know our
sales team sold number 47 inyour street for 1.8 mil.
Mate, you're looking good.
I know that you're not sellingright and I really feel like
that to me would be added value,even though it's a sales
element.
But it's my asset and I don'tcare whether I'm looking at my
(17:18):
asset as a rent or looking at myasset as how much equity I'm
sitting in.
That's still valuable to me.
I just want to ask you, jono,can you?
Jonathan Bell (17:28):
manage.
Rachel wants to manage yourproperties, Tom.
Tom Panos (17:33):
Rachel.
Thanks for asking, rachel.
Type out where you are.
Yeah, he shared that script.
Thanks, conrad.
Someone asked before do you usethe Manage app for trust
accounting?
Jonathan Bell (17:50):
No, we don't.
I won't say it live online,because we have a partnership
with a lot of prop techs, so weuse one of the prominent prop
tech companies and I think thatthey're all great, and I don't
think you should overanalysewhich one you choose.
I think you should just makesure that you learn it the best
you can and don't have 15different tech subscriptions.
(18:13):
Just pick one and nail it.
Tom Panos (18:15):
Yeah, I always say to people John, with technology
and CRM systems, they all work.
They need humans to work them.
Humans rarely work them.
Don't worry about the system,worry about your application to
the system.
Now Jason Rose has asked do youdo your own trust?
Jonathan Bell (18:34):
accounting.
Wingman does it.
So we've got in our business.
Because we're bringing on somany managements, we've got a
team of three offshore.
We've just employed our fourthin our trust accounting division
.
They do all of the water bills,they do all of the arrears,
they do all of the trustaccounting, they do all the
disbursements.
(18:54):
They even do all of our payroll.
So they manage all our propertymanagers leave entitlements,
they do payroll every fortnight.
Accounting is a very populartask.
In the philippines having anaccounting degree is quite
common and there's obviously nolanguage barriers with um, with
accounting.
So we've we've had some reallygood success with offshoring
that okay, um, hey ben, how yougoing?
Tom Panos (19:18):
are the trust accounting people communicating
verbally with landlords via Viaemail?
Via email, beautifulMaintenance and bills, is asked
by Jason again, all offshore.
Jonathan Bell (19:33):
And then, when you hear all this stuff, you
realise how much stuff yourproperty managers are doing that
they shouldn't be doing.
Tom Panos (19:39):
Okay, conrad's just asked curious in your market,
what is the average fee formanagements?
Jonathan Bell (19:46):
Yeah, we're a new farm which is quite an affluent
area, so we've got a reallygood market rent.
I think our average rent's $650to $670, and our average fee is
7% plus GST, which means ourdouble AMIs, which is your
average annual management income, which is what your asset's
valued on, is $2,200.
Tom Panos (20:07):
Okay, beautiful.
By the way, you know, jono, Idon't know.
I've never asked you this Doyou have, like, if there's
people watching this, becauseI'm noticing Ben, who's a great,
you know, ben, that office inBell actually there's five
offices in Bell, they're prettymuch all over the Hunter area If
(20:27):
these like, do you have aservice where, like, if they
want to see it in person, do youdo that?
Or do they ring you up?
Or how do you do it?
Jonathan Bell (20:39):
Yeah, we've actually got a roadshow in
Melbourne.
For any Melbourne agencies in,I think it's in June.
So we're basically flying allof our team to Melbourne and
we're hiring out a venue andwe're going to do we do a full,
we call it a roadshow.
We basically do a full day andwe talk all about how we've
grown, the way we have, how westructured our rent rolls, our
BDM speak, our team leadersspeak, so we do that.
(21:00):
And also, for anyone who wantsto come, we we've got um our
office.
We've got an open door policy.
We had a ray white office comein this morning.
So, um, people are welcome tocome and spend a few hours in
the business, because it allsounds great in theory, but I
think it's important for peopleto actually see it in action, um
, so we're very open to peoplecoming and seeing how do they
contact wingman for these things?
Tom Panos (21:21):
what's the?
What's the?
How does that work work?
Jonathan Bell (21:24):
I'll get.
I think Nick Georges is on thecall.
He might be able to put thelink to the Wingman, but
basically just register yourinquiry on the Wingman website.
Tom Panos (21:32):
So Susan, just in case Nick's not on there.
Susan, do you mind in the chatgroup just to type in the
Wingman?
Thanks, Susan, she's put thatin there.
It's in the chat group, Thankyou.
What does a full-time trustaccounting person cost is a
(21:53):
question that Ben's asked.
Jonathan Bell (21:55):
About $30,000 a year, same as any offshore.
Tom Panos (21:59):
And then one question , and then I'm going to ask you
a couple more myself.
What workflow patterns do youuse?
Or you can't inform, whatworkflow platform do you use?
Jonathan Bell (22:13):
So within our software there's a project
management tool that we've builtout all the processes and the
systems in there.
Part of what we do at Wingmanis like offshoring is only as
good as the system behind it,which we've learned.
So you can't just put anoffshore person in and say, hey,
manage all of our stuff.
You have to build a reallystrong process and a system
behind it.
So we've got 17 staff onshoreand basically what we do is we
(22:37):
go into businesses and we helpthem build out their processes
and their systems.
So we can definitely help withthat.
But basically, within yourproperty management software you
can build out all yourprocesses and systems.
If you don't a mondaycom orTrello.
They're all very similar, but Ido believe that you should try
and do it all within the onesystem.
(22:57):
Otherwise, every time you'vegot a staff member there's
double handling and then theywon't update one side of the
system and then they'll updatethe other and then it gets
really clunky.
Okay, Beautiful.
Tom Panos (23:08):
So, yeah, nick is on, but he's put down.
Susan was quicker than Nick,that's right, that's not hard.
Wow, hey, john, I'm going tobring it up after.
I'm going to bring up thatvideo on that pickleball guy.
But I want to give you very,very, very briefly the do's and
(23:30):
don'ts of offshoring andproperty management.
You've been the subject and thescientist in your own business.
You've also been able to getthe feedback from your clients
over the years and I saw a lotof them I mean guys and girls,
we're talking about some seriousbusinesses when I was in Manila
I don't normally end up havinga lot of time with big property
(23:52):
management people, right,because that's not my life but
here I was for a week and I'msitting next to people that have
got rent rolls of $1,000,$2,000 that have been using your
model, right, and it isabsolutely remarkable.
But I'm sure you've learnedwhat to do and what to not do
(24:12):
using offshoring.
So what can you share there?
Jonathan Bell (24:15):
Just on that, tom , I used to say it's the
quickest way to become amillionaire is to have a rent
role.
All you need to do is sign 200managements approximately 200
managements and you have amillion dollar asset as an asset
class.
It is an amazing asset.
You get cash flow If you're insales.
If you leave that area and goto a new area, your whole IP is
(24:43):
gone.
You're known in that area, soif you want to move from Sydney
to Melbourne, you get trappedbecause you have to start again.
But in property management it'san amazing business model that
is cash flow positive and it'snot reliant on one person.
So being able to surroundmyself with those people, it is
once you crack the code and youcan really focus on organic
growth.
(25:03):
It's life-changing.
Tom Panos (25:06):
Beautiful.
And, listen, I agree with you100% because I actually think
sales, the sales side of realestate, it's got some pretty
strong performers, rightperformers, right, whereas in PM
(25:29):
it has never really been, it'snever really had that sales
element to it.
And now if you move in, you'regoing to have that first move
advantage.
So the opportunity is golden,tim.
I've got to share with this.
So I play pickleballoccasionally with Nick Georges
and John.
I didn't talk about it, he's anex-professional tennis player.
He used to play the circuit andI was playing and I showed Nick
(25:51):
Georges a video.
I said this is the guy thatcoaches here at these pickleball
courts.
He was.
I think he was there that day.
Oh, he wasn't there that day,nick, he was there and I showed
it to him.
I go do you reckon Jono canbeat him?
And he goes listen, I'll letyou know.
Jono reckons he can beat anyonein pickleball, simple as that.
So I've got to share it withyou here.
(26:12):
Jono, like this is the guy, theguy in the white cap look at
that underneath his legs justmaking this guy there.
So, jono, could you see all ofthat?
Jonathan Bell (26:34):
Yeah, you sent it to me.
I'm still.
Yeah, I sent it to you justbefore did.
Tom Panos (26:38):
I, yeah.
So I'm going to see him nextfew days.
Can I tell him that you'regoing to come over and just
teach him?
I'll say, mate, this guy o'bill, he's in property management,
he reckons he goes, I'll comeand sort him out.
Can I say that to him?
100, okay, beautiful.
Is that?
Is there any is?
Is there anything else?
(26:58):
On the do's and don'ts ofoffshoring, we didn't touch on
that yeah, yeah, I mean, um,I've learned the hard way from
it.
Jonathan Bell (27:05):
Like I think that the that it was really
interesting.
Firstly, you need to make sureyou've got really trained staff
in the philippines, like you,you, the filipino culture is
extremely different.
Which thomas saw is they don'tknow what a landlord is.
They don't know what a tenantis.
They don't know what a tradieis like that.
You need to teach them that.
So one thing we learned is wehave to build a training academy
so they're fully trained.
(27:25):
That's number one.
But interestingly, the harderpart is actually teaching your
Australian property managers howto delegate.
For most property managers whohave been in the industry for
five years, they're verycontrolling of their portfolio.
They're protective of theirtenants.
They're protective of theirlandlords.
They don't want to delegate.
It's their role.
So you actually have to teachyour own team.
(27:46):
Okay, this is what you delegate, this is what you don't
delegate.
This is how you manage yourteam.
So you should be having a 15minute strategy session with
your offshore every morning tosee what they're doing every
afternoon.
What did you complete?
What didn't you complete?
What are your challenges?
Like?
They might seem simple to a lotof people on this call, but to
property managers.
They've never managed a team oranyone before.
(28:09):
So it's actually, I think stepone is training the offshore and
getting them really wellengaged, but then also step two
is actually teaching yourproperty managers how to
delegate and also what thebenefit of that is to them.
So you need to paint thepicture.
If you can delegate really welland you can help your portfolio
go from 120 to 200, what doesthat mean your property manager
can earn?
What's the income for yourproperty manager?
(28:30):
And giving them a really clearplan.
If you get to $200,000management, your salary goes
from $70,000 to $90,000.
If you get from $250,000management to $300,000
management, happy to pay you$120,000.
And if you give them that planand incentivize them along the
way and actually show them howto do it, it's life-changing.
(28:50):
If you've got a really goodoffshore team, every single
client that we have who comes onboard and does it well says I
can't believe I used to run mybusiness without this, but it
takes time and you've got toshare the vision with your
Australian team as well.
Tom Panos (29:04):
Beautiful and I'm happy that Steve Hatz is back
online because he's replied.
Great advice which says to methat you were able to pick up
the volume and sound.
Great to have you back.
Steve Jono, what would be yourbest piece of advice this has
come from Oliver in gettingthose systems for offshoring in
(29:24):
place.
So let's assume the theory isthere and let's assume someone's
sitting there thinking that'sit.
I'm sick and tired of beingsick and tired and not having my
rent roll being biw best in theworld.
This sounds attractive to me.
What would be your best pieceof advice in moving forward?
Jonathan Bell (29:43):
yeah, I mean it sounds biased, but I've done it
before and it works really well.
I'd have a strategy session withthe wingman team, um, talk to
them about what your goals areand, um, and build a really good
strategy over the next 12months about how you're going to
improve your processes, improveyour systems, go for little
wins.
Like you know, don't don't tryand revolutionize everything
(30:04):
tomorrow, like, all right, let'snail the lease renewal process
now.
Let's nail the lease.
Let's nail the arrears process.
Let's find a champion in ouroffice who's who wants to drive
this and wants career growth,and let's try it with them first
.
So I would do a few littlethings like that, but the whole
you know, the whole idea ofwingman is for um, you know,
(30:25):
property management's changed mylife and and I get a lot of joy
out of helping other people dothe same.
So it's something that theWingman team actively do every
day.
So I'd book a strategy sessionin and share where you want to
go in your business and they dothat through that link, that,
susan there, they can do itthrough there.
Tom Panos (30:44):
Yep, okay, finally, and I'm so excited it's in my
diary.
Okay, finally, and I'm soexcited it's in my diary, in
fact, jono, let me make sureit's in there because I know the
dates have changed to make itreally friendly for people to be
able to go there and not, youknow, because there's a lot of
business owners that are on thisright now and I want them to be
(31:06):
able to attend this event.
So, off the top of my head, theevent for Manila, the retreat
which involves Manila, then goesto a regional area to get a
real feel of what thePhilippines is like, and then to
finish it off at Boracay, andthis is all layered with
(31:29):
learning and networkingthroughout, and it's tax
deductible.
And let me tell you, you're notgoing to Monaco or you'll get
incredible bang for buck in thatcountry, right?
So the event, jono, is Susan,maybe Susan's done that already
(31:51):
about the retreat Beautiful,sorry, nick.
Nick, if this was sale of thecentury, you wouldn't be invited
back next week.
You haven't pressed the buzzer,you haven't pressed the buzzer
right.
And then Alan has said how greatis property management?
That's what we wanted to do.
We've got to make it where, man, people are saying it's great.
And I've got to tell you whyit's great.
(32:11):
Because at the end of a 30-yearreal estate career, I've got to
tell you you won't have asingle commission left in your
wallet but you'll have a bigrent roll that's worth millions
and squillions of dollars.
That is seen by a bank to benearly equivalent to actual real
estate as an asset base, right?
So the conference, jono, is infact.
(32:37):
What am I doing?
Mid-september, it'smid-September, in fact.
Here it is there team, let'sbring it up here.
That is the conferencePhilippines 3.0.
Jeez, I had a good time there.
Jonathan Bell (32:55):
So, tom, we rented.
This year We've gone big, werented a whole island.
So when we get there, we spendone night in Manila and then we
catch a bus to a place and thenwe get a boat to an island, so
that we've got the whole island.
Um, and it's pretty cool.
Like we we've already figuredout, there's going to be I think
(33:16):
it's 10 of the 20 biggest realestate property management
businesses owners are all goingto be there.
So it's going to be like from anetworking point of view,
because there's not many, notmany um industry events that are
only, like, really focused onPM or have a lot of PM leaders
there.
So it's a big focus of ours tomake sure that sales is.
There'll be a lot of salespeople there, but also a lot of
(33:38):
business owners with big rentroles, like last year.
Tom Panos (33:41):
You know, together with the remote professionals
and the contingent fromAustralia, slash New Zealand.
We're looking at what around700 people, you reckon.
Jonathan Bell (33:52):
Yeah, I think we'll have 600 Filipinos there,
which is really special, andthen between 150 and 300 Aussies
and New Zealanders.
Tom Panos (34:02):
And let me tell you, outside of real estate, there is
something invigorating,inspiring and really motivating
to go to another place to have alook at certain things like
time it takes to get to workthere, what living conditions
(34:23):
are like, what cost of living islike, what you get for your
salary.
And then when you come back andyou land at your airport, you
come back thinking, man, my lifeis made, I've got it made here.
What am I complaining about?
What am I whinging about?
Because you're able to actuallyfeel, smell, touch what it's
(34:47):
like for others and let me tellyou they would swap spots in an
instant.
And for me, one of the real bigvalues I've noticed about
offshore workers is that you getand right now I accept that
part of it has been our economicconditions which have meant
(35:10):
that we basically had, for manyyears, hardly any unemployment.
So you weren't getting thatcommitted.
I'm all in employee for you.
You were getting that employee.
Oh, if you're going to say thatto me, I need you to know I
have options.
Right.
The fact that in Manila theydon't have that many options,
(35:32):
the value of that role is like.
I will treat this like it's thebest job in the world and I say
that because I look Princessmight even be.
Susan is Princess on here?
Jonathan Bell (35:45):
Yeah, she is.
Do you want to bring her on?
Tom Panos (35:49):
It's not necessary because I've realised I've got
to rush to get somewhere.
But listen, I feel guilty now.
I mean we might be putting heron the spot.
If she wants to come on, shecan come on.
Susan, maybe you?
Jonathan Bell (36:01):
She's the co-host , so she can come on if she
wants to.
Tom Panos (36:04):
Right, yeah, she can come on if she wants to.
Right, I'm putting her on thespot there.
She actually was one of thepeople that was involved with
the Wingman Conference inSeptember, which was called
Profit, which, by the way, I'vehad a lot of people say very,
very rarely in real estate doyou actually have you know?
(36:24):
Someone asked me the other dayJono, he goes, everyone's happy
to punch their GCI on theirsocial media posts.
They don't like putting theirprofit up there.
What's the reason why I said,listen, I'm not quite sure.
I think no one really talksabout profit that much.
But what's Jono done here?
He's admitted someone in.
Jonathan Bell (36:44):
I think he's frozen and he's rejoining oh
right, he's rejoining, Got it.
Tom Panos (36:49):
So, Susan, you want to have a look out for him While
we're on there.
Ladies and gentlemen, it wouldbe remiss of me not to show you
what the EBU model, what the EBUmodel, looks like in real
estate, right?
So I'm just going to quicklyjust share that while Jono comes
(37:11):
back on.
So what you're doing, this isan effective business unit model
in real estate sales, right?
It's got roles of team members.
So Jono's back right.
Jonathan Bell (37:23):
Sorry, Tom, my computer carved it.
Tom Panos (37:25):
Johnny, I was just buying some time there, so I
basically just returned to them.
So I want to let people knowthis is I've got to tell you you
can get a wingman person to doa lot of middle row, some of
right row, and I've got to letyou know that I have never, ever
(37:49):
seen a real estate agent havean epic business without an epic
team.
It's like there comes a time inlife, you know, like when it's
to get a mobile phone, therecomes a time in life where you
thought I better get a mobilephone right.
Like I reckon that's wherewe're at with that assistant man
(38:11):
, like that's a no-brainer.
Now, I know that we're talkingabout sales, but you know the
average salesperson's gettingfees of 15 or 20 grand.
I reckon you pay for yourassistant or associate remote
professional within the firsttwo weeks out of a 52-week year,
(38:32):
like there are certain thingsthat are 50-50.
There are certain things that,oh, that's a good idea and there
are certain things is that's ano-brainer and that's what it is
.
Thank you, Jason.
Jono, it is just about quarterpast five.
Thank you so much.
Jonathan Bell (38:50):
Thanks Tom.
Thanks guys Appreciate it.
Anyone who wants moreinformation or any checklists or
task lists, please reach out.
We're happy to share everythingwe've got.
Tom Panos (39:00):
Well, there you go.
Sarah says thank you.
Steve says can I just saycongratulations on your success,
Jonathan, Thank you for sharing, Wishing you the best.
You got it all together.
You're a very inspiring guy.
Yeah, we'll see how inspiringhe is on that pickleball call.
Kyle's going to be waiting forhim.
Thank you a lot, Jason.
Listen, it's all positive.
Thanks a lot, Jono.
Jonathan Bell (39:22):
Thank you, tom, appreciate it, see you guys.
Thanks a lot.
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