March 20, 2025 • 27 mins
With over 4,200 hotels across 100 destinations, BWH Hotels has transformed from a midscale brand into a global player covering everything from luxury to glamping. In this episode of the FHS Africa Podcast, we sit down with Ron Pohl, President of WorldHotels and Head of International Operations at BWH Hotels, to explore the group's evolving strategy.
From expanding in Africa, Saudi Arabia, and Brazil to the rise of independent hotels and the demand for experiential travel, we dive into the key trends shaping the future of hospitality. Ron also shares insights on how BWH balances brand standards with flexibility, why sustainability and ESG initiatives matter, and what’s next for the industry—including the group’s move into glamping.
Tune in for a deep dive into global hospitality trends, investment opportunities, and what makes a BWH property stand out in today’s competitive landscape.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hello everyone, Matthew Weiss here from the Africa Hospitality Investment Forum withanother podcast here today for our Ahiff series, the podcast that looks to spread a little
light and insight into the African hospitality investment market.
I'm here today with Daniel Silk, the acclaimed political.
(00:27):
and he'll give us a quick overview of the market.
Welcome, Danny.
Thank you, Matt.
Good to be with you.
It's lovely to see you again.
Daniel's spoken many times at our event and will be one of the key presenters during AHIFwhen we're in Cape Town in June next year.
(00:48):
But this is a little bit of sort of catch up.
I suppose I'm going to pose a question which probably you can talk on for.
at least today because it's so broad and so on to get you going.
And directly from your previous discussions on headwinds and tailwinds.
(01:11):
So.
Can you share the perspective now of where the Africa market is geopolitically andeconomically and how that might face the hospitality industry?
So, you know, with 54 plus countries or whatever it might be in Africa, that's a verybroad question.
(01:34):
over to you.
Let us know what you think the general flavor of the month is.
Thanks, Matt.
Look, I think we remain relatively bullish about Africa and notwithstanding the manygeopolitical risks that are out there.
And I think clearly it doesn't matter where you are in the world, whether you in SouthAmerica or in Africa or Southeast Asia, those global geopolitical risk factors can upend
(02:02):
any kind of decent projection one might have.
But there are some positive global factors.
I think the fall in inflation globally is going to help
every region of the world and certainly will help us here on the African continent.
We've had relatively high levels of inflation across the continent.
We are starting to see that come down, not just in South Africa, where we've had thelatest data just in the last week or so, but elsewhere on the continent as well.
(02:26):
And that's a positive generally for governments.
relatively speaking, growth rates across the African continent remain buoyant.
They remain certainly above
the developed market countries.
We are still looking at Africa growing at perhaps around 4 % GDP over the course of thisnext year or so.
(02:46):
It's going to fluctuate slightly, but that's more than double the growth rate of thedeveloped markets.
And Africa remains really the second fastest growing region of the world other thanSoutheast Asia.
So, you know, the macro level looks reasonable.
It's not just though there aren't any headwinds.
We've certainly seen
(03:07):
some political unrest in some core markets.
We're seeing an African youth a little more restless, a little more questioning of thegovernments than we have before.
And we, of course, are seeing the effects, very serious effects also of climate change, aswe've seen in Europe, but we are seeing it here on the African continent as well, which
can affect growth going forward.
(03:27):
But the hotel groups continue to, I think, have a substantial interest in Africa andexpanding their footprint.
Africa's demographic changes are continuing apace, high levels of population growth,increasing urbanization, those big macro trends are not changing.
In fact, they are increasing in veracity and the need to improve accommodation offeringsin these new urban conurbations and extending common conurbations and a marginal uptick in
(03:58):
intra-African air connectivity as well helps this going forward.
I remain relatively pleased about where the continent is.
I think that there are going to be domestic political challenges in a whole host ofcountries going forward, as I say, some major markets.
But overall, I think from an experiential point of view, from a tourism point of view, andincreasingly from a business point of view, global travelers on all of those different
(04:25):
categories are discovering more of Africa now than they ever have had before.
And we've seen that certainly in terms of...
air traffic and arrivals into Africa, which continues to grow at about 6 or 7 percent perannum, which is not bad at all, coming off a relatively low base.
So there's a lot to unravel there and obviously at a 30,000 foot view, that's a verypositive statement.
(04:50):
So what are some of the, you mentioned some of the key fundamentals there, obviously,inter-Africa connectivity, unrest and so on.
So what are some of the fundamentals that you would align now with some of the...
countries that are leading the way with this and which countries are they and what arethey doing well and others perhaps aren't doing well.
(05:17):
Well, I think if you look at the major markets, if you look at just Kenya, for example,come to South Africa in a moment.
But if we look at Kenya, Kenya's had a relatively difficult last year with domesticunrest.
I think one has to always factor this into any country.
It's not just an African phenomenon.
Obviously, many countries around the world are feeling pressures, internal pressures, andultimately, governance and higher food levels of food inflation are making a number of
(05:44):
electrics jittery, including one, I might add.
which is going to the polls in the next week or so.
the Kenyan story, I think, has been affected by domestic unease and yet the broader macroeconomy in Kenya continues to tick along relatively well.
And again, we've seen improved air connectivity coming into Kenya, particularly fromSoutheast Asia with the opening up of a new route.
(06:11):
So I think that some of these African countries are managing.
this level of internal unease and better than one might expect.
We just had a, interestingly enough, an election in our neighbor here in Botswana on ourborder just in the last 24 hours.
And for the first time in decades, the governing party has lost power and there's going tobe a peaceful transition of power in Botswana, which is also significant.
(06:38):
We are seeing countries...
change, have political parties that change hands at election time and we are seeingrelative stability.
We've seen some issues of violence and concern in Senegal over the course of the lastyear, 18 months or so.
And I think there are still issues there in terms of absolute stability, but I don't thinkit's necessarily affecting tourism arrivals, at least for the moment.
(07:05):
So I'm relatively satisfied that the internal
political issues are being dealt with in a relatively mature way and being managed in sucha way that the broader macroeconomic results are not going to be substantively affected.
And from a leisure point of view, it's not going to material effect the sentiment aboutvisiting and traveling and experiencing these particular destinations.
(07:34):
And as I've said, the business environment continues a pace.
I think what's interesting just
and from a sort of macro perspective is that Africa obviously is also looking to expandthe continent's influence globally.
We continue to see Africa make a play for increased investment from the developed markets,from Europe and from the US, but increasingly of course from emerging markets that broader
(08:03):
BRICS group of countries, which is now the BRICS
plus group of countries extended now to many additional countries are all looking at, Ithink, greater African exposure going forward.
And we see a greater investment potential coming, of course, from the Gulf countries aswell into the continent.
you know, notwithstanding those headwinds, you are seeing both domestic management ofproblems and external investment into the continent continue to be relatively robust.
(08:34):
And obviously South Africa, very linked into that BRICS area.
We were there for the first time for the event now.
And I know you've been fairly disparaging, shall we say, the last few years, or at leastvery sort of...
concern should we say about the state of the South African market.
It feels as if there's been genuine change recently and real opportunity is now quiteclearly there for South Africa.
(09:04):
What has changed do you think politically that has allowed this to happen and what's yoursort of sentiment for it really?
Yeah, well, I certainly think that South Africa has had a of a sentiment shift over thecourse of the last six months or so.
You're well aware we had an election in which the governing party dropped to 40 % of thevote.
(09:28):
We had to enter into a new government of national unity in South Africa.
And that government of national unity, by virtue of the fact that it has included most ofthe major political parties in a joint governance operation within the country,
has certainly, I think, had a positive effect on business sentiment.
(09:48):
Don't forget, the country had fallen into a rather unpleasant state of graft, corruption,course, logistical failure, electricity issues, we've had ongoing logistical and
transportation issues, the failure of our state-owned enterprises under successivegovernments here.
(10:10):
have led to very harsh and difficult conditions for the South African business community.
the issue of the lights going out of what we call in South Africa, load shedding, thatgreat euphemism for power blackouts, was a great depressive factor, not just for South
Africans, but clearly for those potentially investing in South Africa or for thosevisiting the country as well.
(10:31):
Now, for the moment, we've certainly seen a...
a blackout free South Africa for the last 200 plus days.
We've got stability on our electricity grid for the moment.
In fact, we've had such some remarkable turnaround in our electricity grid, Matt, that atone point a month or two ago, we were producing too much energy for our own needs when
(10:52):
we've come off the back of having these regular and very frustrating power cuts.
So I think that fact alone has improved business sentiment.
And the fact that we've had a fairly mature move away from sort of one party or singleparty rule to the sort of multi-party coalition style government, a government that's
looking to be substantially more business friendly.
(11:15):
Look, when the state hasn't been able to provide efficiently for the last 10, 15 or moreyears, the biggest party in South Africa, African National Congress has been kicking and
screaming.
to the realization that we do need better public-private partnerships in South Africa toget the railways to go and to get water going, to get electricity going.
(11:39):
And that public-private mix is really important broadly also for a whole host ofindustries within South Africa from property development, road development, and I would
argue from the tourism sector as well.
And a fair amount of work is being done now in our tourism sector.
to tackle some of the bottlenecks and bureaucratic hassles that have, I would argue,prevented South Africa from really playing its part globally.
(12:10):
And I'm referring there to some sometimes very onerous visa regimes, particularly forvisitors coming from China and India.
Great growing markets, these markets should be expanding into South Africa that hadlimited success simply because it's been difficult.
for those visitors to get visas.
Now I think it's on the front burner now to improve and to deregulate many of theseaspects of our tourism industry and I think that also bodes well.
(12:39):
So sentiment, yes, is good.
Listen, Rome isn't built in a day as the old saying goes.
We've had 10, 15, 20 years of infrastructure degradation in South Africa and it's going totake some time to rebuild that.
but it's better to have better sentiment frankly than not.
(13:00):
so sort of in the trough and coming out a little bit, is that your sort of feeling?
Do you think the only way is up here?
I think the major political parties in our government all agree on the necessity foreconomic growth and to institute policies that are conducive to economic growth.
(13:27):
the major parties, and don't forget our ruling government of national unity in SouthAfrica really represent just almost 70 % of all South Africans in terms of the political
parties, they're 10 political parties.
that are part of this government of national unity.
That's something they can all agree on and that's the positive.
They don't agree on every aspect on their ideological differences for sure, their foreignpolicy differences for sure as well, but on providing the necessary platform for economic
(13:55):
growth in South Africa, which is critical for job creation, critical for upping our growthrate, critical to eliminate our...
quite burdensome debt we have in South Africa as well.
Borrowings are quite high in South Africa.
There's only one way out of this, and that is to encourage foreign investors to create aliberalized regime of efficient rules, regulations, good governance.
(14:23):
If the agreement is on that issue, that really does point to a sentiment shift.
But as I've said,
look, you're not going to get everything right in the short term and you've got to startrelatively small.
We just had, just in this last week, we just had a sort of what we call a mini budget, amedium term budget policy statement and now Minister of Finance, you know, was quite
(14:46):
honest about where those issues were, where the problems were and it's going to take sometime.
But I'm much rather, I'm happy to report, put it that way.
that I think for the first time in many, many years, the South African business communityfeel substantially better about their own country.
(15:07):
And that's an important thing.
If your domestic business have to want to invest also in your own country, not send theircash outside all the time.
So I think, you know, that's a positive.
And I think we are seeing also greater air connectivity coming into South Africa,streamlining some of these sort of regulatory bottlenecks.
(15:27):
improving our ports of entry for air passengers, I think is now on the front burner.
all in all, overall an improved sentiment, but let's not get carried away with ourselvesin South Africa.
But the position to me seems as though there is a sigh of relief that we've managed to gothrough a very important election where a very strong governing party has lost its
(15:54):
majority.
And we seamlessly and in a very professional business way transitioned to a multi-partygovernment.
And I think that in itself gives us a degree of hope for the future.
Well, if it's any point, know, it's the first time our event has been hosted in SouthAfrica and we're delighted to sort of be there at this time.
(16:22):
You touched upon intra-connectivity in Africa.
How critical has air connectivity been in positioning South Africa?
in the hospitality market now.
It's obviously one of the key decisions that we've chosen to choose Cape Town.
(16:47):
how important is this and how important are the government putting it now for development?
Well, Matt, I mean, you don't need me to tell you, you know, or those watching how if youcan't get bodies, if you can't fly them into your country, they're not going to fill your
hotel beds.
(17:07):
And the critical issue is absolutely to get affordable travel in particular on frequentschedules up and running into our major cities.
Now, we fortunate here in Cape Town to have a very, very good program, Cape Town WesternCape Air Access Program.
that has spent the last number of years fostering very close relations with the globalaviation industry.
(17:30):
And we've had a plethora of new airlines and existing airlines come in or increase theirfrequency directly into Cape Town.
This is critically important to enable seamless and relatively affordable travel to a longhaul destination and to a destination that's at the end of a continent.
There's always additional dynamics.
(17:52):
with end of the continent destinations.
And a lot of it is to do with cost and length of travel.
So seamless connectivity is vital.
We have a steady stream of new airlines coming in directly into Cape Town.
And we have a steady stream of additional frequencies into the broader South Africa aswell.
It's been uptick into Durban.
(18:14):
Johannesburg, I think is lagging a little as that leisure market into Cape Town reallytook off after COVID.
and the business market still was rather sort of static in Johannesburg and surroundsthere.
But we've this, you know, we've just had a North Airlines yesterday, in fact, with theinaugural flight into Cape Town.
(18:36):
It's important because not just because it's North, but it's important because it's a lowcost carrier, also offering greater affordability.
And that's very, very important.
I always talk, you know, it's always important to look at macro issues as well and howthey impact arrivals onto the continent.
Look, obviously, you know, we are still seeing a demand from global tourists coming intoSouth Africa.
(18:57):
But if global tourists, if those in the US or in Western Europe find their own economieslagging, their own disposable income lagging, they are going to travel a bit less.
And we've seen a softening in the US.
domestic travel market and potentially also and I would argue perhaps over the next yearor two a softening from there.
So, you know, we really need to encourage these direct routes now coming from other majormarkets and as I mentioned, both India, there's no direct flight from South Africa into
(19:30):
India.
It's one of those remarkable anomalies to me when it comes to a critical route that'sunserved and even from Southeast Asia.
from China, is of course direct flights into Johannesburg, but it's relatively limited andgiven the increase in numbers coming from those two critical markets, I think that's one
(19:51):
of the deficient areas of where connectivity can be improved upon.
I don't want give it all away, I guess also this is a bit of an interim before we get youfor the main show in June.
One thing that I've always, as an economist, we tend to get the economists come in andthey do their speech and then they disappear.
(20:18):
You've never done that and you always attend the full event.
What would be your
I guess, advice for those listening to this about the experience that they might have atAHAF and the things that they learn from attending the event like you do, because you
obviously sort of just hang around talking to people or understanding what the market, youknow, what do you typically learn from attending our event?
(20:49):
Well, Matt, know, I've been to many of your events and it's probably, you know, if not myfavorite event of any of my clients through the year, then it's certainly one of them
because other clients will watch this and criticize me for saying that.
So I'm very fond of, I'm very fond of Ahiff as an event.
(21:14):
I think...
From a personal level, the connectivity, forget about air connectivity, the interpersonallevel of delegates that consistently come to your events really to me indicates that this
event is taken seriously as an industry-leading event globally.
(21:36):
It clearly tackles one of the most interesting, intriguing, challenging, developing andexciting areas of the world, the African continent.
And the level of contribution from speakers, and I'll exclude myself from this one,otherwise I will sound far too blame my own trouble, but the level of contribution from
(21:58):
the panel discussions, from your wide variety of speakers who are, I know you go to greatlengths to expertly choose and select speakers.
I think provides a level of input that is difficult to get in any other platform over acouple of days at a seminar or event.
(22:22):
So there's every good reason why I like AHIF, but I think it really is the personalrelationships.
And the program is always to me designed around building personal relationships betweenthose in the industry.
And I myself, I'm not in the industry, I'm a...
outside consultant, but I have developed personal relationships with so many individualsthat I've met at AF over many years and I keep in regular contact with them and they
(22:49):
become my clients.
In fact, some of them have become my clients over the years as well.
it's an educational experience that has a networking overlap that is second to none.
Certainly when I look at many other conferences that I attend.
Well, we love you being there and we can't wait to see you in June and no doubt, fingerscrossed, maybe the landscape is even more positive and whatnot, but there will always be
(23:17):
change in the African market and the world market as we know it.
So I look forward to that update as we get it in June.
And thank you again, Daniel, for joining us today with all your insights.
Matt, thanks for having me.
I'm delighted that I don't have to travel too far to this AIHF.
Although it's an almost walk to the conference.
(23:41):
So thank you, Matt.
And it's always a pleasure dealing with bench events and the broader team as well.
So thank you.
Thanks again, Daniel.
(24:05):
that go Osama.
Are we all good?
I don't know if you can crop out my wi-fi, that was a little bit rubbish in thebackground.
I forgot to move that.
(24:26):
Were you happy with that Daniel?
I'm happy with that, are you happy with it?
yep, yep, I'm always happy.
I see it says 99 % uploading.
I can see that there.
(24:49):
Okay.
Who gives a shout if you're in London and you want a cup of tea or something, somethingstronger.
The Westin.
(25:10):
Yeah, and the CICC.
So in fact, one of the things to tell you is just for the morning, the main morning, we'regoing to close the rest of the conference, like the exhibit, and move over to the CICC
where we can do all the...
So...
Hopefully it makes all the bigger sessions packed.
I know yours is always busy anyway.
(25:32):
But then we just focus on those bigger picture stuff and then actually a lot of the othersessions are going to be those workshops.
So because they rate so highly.
So Tanya and Sontran are putting the agenda together now based around that.
We have an advisory board in Dubai in January.
(25:55):
and Marla and I will probably come down to your neck of woods February March for a bit ofa recce and a promotion sometime as well.
if I don't see you London before then, please let me know when you are, when you're downand we'll catch up and if there's anything else, just let me know.
(26:16):
Any other promos or any other video or anything for social media or anything else otherthan this.
Always happy to assist.
Thanks Daniel, appreciate it and lovely seeing you as always.
both, might add, yes.
So we will welcome
Sama's gonna get there because we've...
(26:38):
Sama's Pakistani and got stuck in transit in South Africa.
Yes, I seem to recall there was some issue with...
yeah, Yeah, well, go figure.
I hope we're getting a little bit more efficient with that.
And a few others have had the same issues, actually.
(27:00):
But I think they are trying to improve this.
We've got a new Minister of Home Affairs, Home Office Minister in South Africa.
And he comes from...
is it?
They never had it before.
given that you did nothing for the last 20 years.
But we do have a new minister who comes from the major opposition party and it's reallynew broom sweep clean there.
(27:23):
So in fact, I mean, it really is a case where if there are any specific issues with visas,you must let me know.
because I can get access to this particular minister if I have to.
So if there's some major visa issue, I'll try, I can't, guarantee it, but I've got to endwith this lot.
(27:48):
Thank you.
I think actually Marla's done a cracking job hasn't she Osama?
She's sort of worked it out but yeah it was horrible for long while and it wasn't apleasant experience by any stretch.
Well, I mean, even for our, and maybe Osama, you'll relate to this, not that I'msuggesting that things are inefficient in back home where you are, but for us getting a
(28:12):
passport, you know, could have resulted in standing in a line, you know, for, you know, 10hours a day outside, outside the Department of Home Affairs building, you know, unless you
knew someone or had some sort of official in.
And I believe this has been cleared and I believe it's more efficient and I've got to geta passport next year.
(28:36):
you so there are some little, you've got to, the thing is, Matt, you've got to live longenough to see improvements and there you go.
Yeah, that's very true.
If it was always good, you would never have anything to compare it against, would you?
That's the thing as well.
have any work.
The problem is it mustn't be too good because then I don't have any work.
So I'm very happy when things are more rock.
(28:57):
I don't work in...
Yeah, I need an unstable environment.
I have a good friend who's in private equity, he loves it.
He loves it when it's all going to crap.
He's like, this is exactly what I want.
Anyway, look, I have to go.
I've got another another cool buzzing, but...
to see you as always and we will touch very soon.
Cheers Daniel, thanks for your time.
(29:18):
Thanks to Summer.
Bye bye.
Hello everyone, Matthew Weiss here from the Africa Hospitality Investment Forum withanother podcast here today for our Ahiff series, the podcast that looks to spread a little
light and insight into the African hospitality investment market.
I'm here today with Daniel Silk, the acclaimed political.
(00:27):
and he'll give us a quick overview of the market.
Welcome, Danny.
Thank you, Matt.
Good to be with you.
It's lovely to see you again.
Daniel's spoken many times at our event and will be one of the key presenters during AHIFwhen we're in Cape Town in June next year.
(00:48):
But this is a little bit of sort of catch up.
I suppose I'm going to pose a question which probably you can talk on for.
at least today because it's so broad and so on to get you going.
And directly from your previous discussions on headwinds and tailwinds.
(01:11):
So.
Can you share the perspective now of where the Africa market is geopolitically andeconomically and how that might face the hospitality industry?
So, you know, with 54 plus countries or whatever it might be in Africa, that's a verybroad question.
(01:34):
over to you.
Let us know what you think the general flavor of the month is.
Thanks, Matt.
Look, I think we remain relatively bullish about Africa and notwithstanding the manygeopolitical risks that are out there.
And I think clearly it doesn't matter where you are in the world, whether you in SouthAmerica or in Africa or Southeast Asia, those global geopolitical risk factors can upend
(02:02):
any kind of decent projection one might have.
But there are some positive global factors.
I think the fall in inflation globally is going to help
every region of the world and certainly will help us here on the African continent.
We've had relatively high levels of inflation across the continent.
We are starting to see that come down, not just in South Africa, where we've had thelatest data just in the last week or so, but elsewhere on the continent as well.
(02:26):
And that's a positive generally for governments.
relatively speaking, growth rates across the African continent remain buoyant.
They remain certainly above
the developed market countries.
We are still looking at Africa growing at perhaps around 4 % GDP over the course of thisnext year or so.
(02:46):
It's going to fluctuate slightly, but that's more than double the growth rate of thedeveloped markets.
And Africa remains really the second fastest growing region of the world other thanSoutheast Asia.
So, you know, the macro level looks reasonable.
It's not just though there aren't any headwinds.
We've certainly seen
(03:07):
some political unrest in some core markets.
We're seeing an African youth a little more restless, a little more questioning of thegovernments than we have before.
And we, of course, are seeing the effects, very serious effects also of climate change, aswe've seen in Europe, but we are seeing it here on the African continent as well, which
can affect growth going forward.
(03:27):
But the hotel groups continue to, I think, have a substantial interest in Africa andexpanding their footprint.
Africa's demographic changes are continuing apace, high levels of population growth,increasing urbanization, those big macro trends are not changing.
In fact, they are increasing in veracity and the need to improve accommodation offeringsin these new urban conurbations and extending common conurbations and a marginal uptick in
(03:58):
intra-African air connectivity as well helps this going forward.
I remain relatively pleased about where the continent is.
I think that there are going to be domestic political challenges in a whole host ofcountries going forward, as I say, some major markets.
But overall, I think from an experiential point of view, from a tourism point of view, andincreasingly from a business point of view, global travelers on all of those different
(04:25):
categories are discovering more of Africa now than they ever have had before.
And we've seen that certainly in terms of...
air traffic and arrivals into Africa, which continues to grow at about 6 or 7 percent perannum, which is not bad at all, coming off a relatively low base.
So there's a lot to unravel there and obviously at a 30,000 foot view, that's a verypositive statement.
(04:50):
So what are some of the, you mentioned some of the key fundamentals there, obviously,inter-Africa connectivity, unrest and so on.
So what are some of the fundamentals that you would align now with some of the...
countries that are leading the way with this and which countries are they and what arethey doing well and others perhaps aren't doing well.
(05:17):
Well, I think if you look at the major markets, if you look at just Kenya, for example,come to South Africa in a moment.
But if we look at Kenya, Kenya's had a relatively difficult last year with domesticunrest.
I think one has to always factor this into any country.
It's not just an African phenomenon.
Obviously, many countries around the world are feeling pressures, internal pressures, andultimately, governance and higher food levels of food inflation are making a number of
(05:44):
electrics jittery, including one, I might add.
which is going to the polls in the next week or so.
the Kenyan story, I think, has been affected by domestic unease and yet the broader macroeconomy in Kenya continues to tick along relatively well.
And again, we've seen improved air connectivity coming into Kenya, particularly fromSoutheast Asia with the opening up of a new route.
(06:11):
So I think that some of these African countries are managing.
this level of internal unease and better than one might expect.
We just had a, interestingly enough, an election in our neighbor here in Botswana on ourborder just in the last 24 hours.
And for the first time in decades, the governing party has lost power and there's going tobe a peaceful transition of power in Botswana, which is also significant.
(06:38):
We are seeing countries...
change, have political parties that change hands at election time and we are seeingrelative stability.
We've seen some issues of violence and concern in Senegal over the course of the lastyear, 18 months or so.
And I think there are still issues there in terms of absolute stability, but I don't thinkit's necessarily affecting tourism arrivals, at least for the moment.
(07:05):
So I'm relatively satisfied that the internal
political issues are being dealt with in a relatively mature way and being managed in sucha way that the broader macroeconomic results are not going to be substantively affected.
And from a leisure point of view, it's not going to material effect the sentiment aboutvisiting and traveling and experiencing these particular destinations.
(07:34):
And as I've said, the business environment continues a pace.
I think what's interesting just
and from a sort of macro perspective is that Africa obviously is also looking to expandthe continent's influence globally.
We continue to see Africa make a play for increased investment from the developed markets,from Europe and from the US, but increasingly of course from emerging markets that broader
(08:03):
BRICS group of countries, which is now the BRICS
plus group of countries extended now to many additional countries are all looking at, Ithink, greater African exposure going forward.
And we see a greater investment potential coming, of course, from the Gulf countries aswell into the continent.
you know, notwithstanding those headwinds, you are seeing both domestic management ofproblems and external investment into the continent continue to be relatively robust.
(08:34):
And obviously South Africa, very linked into that BRICS area.
We were there for the first time for the event now.
And I know you've been fairly disparaging, shall we say, the last few years, or at leastvery sort of...
concern should we say about the state of the South African market.
It feels as if there's been genuine change recently and real opportunity is now quiteclearly there for South Africa.
(09:04):
What has changed do you think politically that has allowed this to happen and what's yoursort of sentiment for it really?
Yeah, well, I certainly think that South Africa has had a of a sentiment shift over thecourse of the last six months or so.
You're well aware we had an election in which the governing party dropped to 40 % of thevote.
(09:28):
We had to enter into a new government of national unity in South Africa.
And that government of national unity, by virtue of the fact that it has included most ofthe major political parties in a joint governance operation within the country,
has certainly, I think, had a positive effect on business sentiment.
(09:48):
Don't forget, the country had fallen into a rather unpleasant state of graft, corruption,course, logistical failure, electricity issues, we've had ongoing logistical and
transportation issues, the failure of our state-owned enterprises under successivegovernments here.
(10:10):
have led to very harsh and difficult conditions for the South African business community.
the issue of the lights going out of what we call in South Africa, load shedding, thatgreat euphemism for power blackouts, was a great depressive factor, not just for South
Africans, but clearly for those potentially investing in South Africa or for thosevisiting the country as well.
(10:31):
Now, for the moment, we've certainly seen a...
a blackout free South Africa for the last 200 plus days.
We've got stability on our electricity grid for the moment.
In fact, we've had such some remarkable turnaround in our electricity grid, Matt, that atone point a month or two ago, we were producing too much energy for our own needs when
(10:52):
we've come off the back of having these regular and very frustrating power cuts.
So I think that fact alone has improved business sentiment.
And the fact that we've had a fairly mature move away from sort of one party or singleparty rule to the sort of multi-party coalition style government, a government that's
looking to be substantially more business friendly.
(11:15):
Look, when the state hasn't been able to provide efficiently for the last 10, 15 or moreyears, the biggest party in South Africa, African National Congress has been kicking and
screaming.
to the realization that we do need better public-private partnerships in South Africa toget the railways to go and to get water going, to get electricity going.
(11:39):
And that public-private mix is really important broadly also for a whole host ofindustries within South Africa from property development, road development, and I would
argue from the tourism sector as well.
And a fair amount of work is being done now in our tourism sector.
to tackle some of the bottlenecks and bureaucratic hassles that have, I would argue,prevented South Africa from really playing its part globally.
(12:10):
And I'm referring there to some sometimes very onerous visa regimes, particularly forvisitors coming from China and India.
Great growing markets, these markets should be expanding into South Africa that hadlimited success simply because it's been difficult.
for those visitors to get visas.
Now I think it's on the front burner now to improve and to deregulate many of theseaspects of our tourism industry and I think that also bodes well.
(12:39):
So sentiment, yes, is good.
Listen, Rome isn't built in a day as the old saying goes.
We've had 10, 15, 20 years of infrastructure degradation in South Africa and it's going totake some time to rebuild that.
but it's better to have better sentiment frankly than not.
(13:00):
so sort of in the trough and coming out a little bit, is that your sort of feeling?
Do you think the only way is up here?
I think the major political parties in our government all agree on the necessity foreconomic growth and to institute policies that are conducive to economic growth.
(13:27):
the major parties, and don't forget our ruling government of national unity in SouthAfrica really represent just almost 70 % of all South Africans in terms of the political
parties, they're 10 political parties.
that are part of this government of national unity.
That's something they can all agree on and that's the positive.
They don't agree on every aspect on their ideological differences for sure, their foreignpolicy differences for sure as well, but on providing the necessary platform for economic
(13:55):
growth in South Africa, which is critical for job creation, critical for upping our growthrate, critical to eliminate our...
quite burdensome debt we have in South Africa as well.
Borrowings are quite high in South Africa.
There's only one way out of this, and that is to encourage foreign investors to create aliberalized regime of efficient rules, regulations, good governance.
(14:23):
If the agreement is on that issue, that really does point to a sentiment shift.
But as I've said,
look, you're not going to get everything right in the short term and you've got to startrelatively small.
We just had, just in this last week, we just had a sort of what we call a mini budget, amedium term budget policy statement and now Minister of Finance, you know, was quite
(14:46):
honest about where those issues were, where the problems were and it's going to take sometime.
But I'm much rather, I'm happy to report, put it that way.
that I think for the first time in many, many years, the South African business communityfeel substantially better about their own country.
(15:07):
And that's an important thing.
If your domestic business have to want to invest also in your own country, not send theircash outside all the time.
So I think, you know, that's a positive.
And I think we are seeing also greater air connectivity coming into South Africa,streamlining some of these sort of regulatory bottlenecks.
(15:27):
improving our ports of entry for air passengers, I think is now on the front burner.
all in all, overall an improved sentiment, but let's not get carried away with ourselvesin South Africa.
But the position to me seems as though there is a sigh of relief that we've managed to gothrough a very important election where a very strong governing party has lost its
(15:54):
majority.
And we seamlessly and in a very professional business way transitioned to a multi-partygovernment.
And I think that in itself gives us a degree of hope for the future.
Well, if it's any point, know, it's the first time our event has been hosted in SouthAfrica and we're delighted to sort of be there at this time.
(16:22):
You touched upon intra-connectivity in Africa.
How critical has air connectivity been in positioning South Africa?
in the hospitality market now.
It's obviously one of the key decisions that we've chosen to choose Cape Town.
(16:47):
how important is this and how important are the government putting it now for development?
Well, Matt, I mean, you don't need me to tell you, you know, or those watching how if youcan't get bodies, if you can't fly them into your country, they're not going to fill your
hotel beds.
(17:07):
And the critical issue is absolutely to get affordable travel in particular on frequentschedules up and running into our major cities.
Now, we fortunate here in Cape Town to have a very, very good program, Cape Town WesternCape Air Access Program.
that has spent the last number of years fostering very close relations with the globalaviation industry.
(17:30):
And we've had a plethora of new airlines and existing airlines come in or increase theirfrequency directly into Cape Town.
This is critically important to enable seamless and relatively affordable travel to a longhaul destination and to a destination that's at the end of a continent.
There's always additional dynamics.
(17:52):
with end of the continent destinations.
And a lot of it is to do with cost and length of travel.
So seamless connectivity is vital.
We have a steady stream of new airlines coming in directly into Cape Town.
And we have a steady stream of additional frequencies into the broader South Africa aswell.
It's been uptick into Durban.
(18:14):
Johannesburg, I think is lagging a little as that leisure market into Cape Town reallytook off after COVID.
and the business market still was rather sort of static in Johannesburg and surroundsthere.
But we've this, you know, we've just had a North Airlines yesterday, in fact, with theinaugural flight into Cape Town.
(18:36):
It's important because not just because it's North, but it's important because it's a lowcost carrier, also offering greater affordability.
And that's very, very important.
I always talk, you know, it's always important to look at macro issues as well and howthey impact arrivals onto the continent.
Look, obviously, you know, we are still seeing a demand from global tourists coming intoSouth Africa.
(18:57):
But if global tourists, if those in the US or in Western Europe find their own economieslagging, their own disposable income lagging, they are going to travel a bit less.
And we've seen a softening in the US.
domestic travel market and potentially also and I would argue perhaps over the next yearor two a softening from there.
So, you know, we really need to encourage these direct routes now coming from other majormarkets and as I mentioned, both India, there's no direct flight from South Africa into
(19:30):
India.
It's one of those remarkable anomalies to me when it comes to a critical route that'sunserved and even from Southeast Asia.
from China, is of course direct flights into Johannesburg, but it's relatively limited andgiven the increase in numbers coming from those two critical markets, I think that's one
(19:51):
of the deficient areas of where connectivity can be improved upon.
I don't want give it all away, I guess also this is a bit of an interim before we get youfor the main show in June.
One thing that I've always, as an economist, we tend to get the economists come in andthey do their speech and then they disappear.
(20:18):
You've never done that and you always attend the full event.
What would be your
I guess, advice for those listening to this about the experience that they might have atAHAF and the things that they learn from attending the event like you do, because you
obviously sort of just hang around talking to people or understanding what the market, youknow, what do you typically learn from attending our event?
(20:49):
Well, Matt, know, I've been to many of your events and it's probably, you know, if not myfavorite event of any of my clients through the year, then it's certainly one of them
because other clients will watch this and criticize me for saying that.
So I'm very fond of, I'm very fond of Ahiff as an event.
(21:14):
I think...
From a personal level, the connectivity, forget about air connectivity, the interpersonallevel of delegates that consistently come to your events really to me indicates that this
event is taken seriously as an industry-leading event globally.
(21:36):
It clearly tackles one of the most interesting, intriguing, challenging, developing andexciting areas of the world, the African continent.
And the level of contribution from speakers, and I'll exclude myself from this one,otherwise I will sound far too blame my own trouble, but the level of contribution from
(21:58):
the panel discussions, from your wide variety of speakers who are, I know you go to greatlengths to expertly choose and select speakers.
I think provides a level of input that is difficult to get in any other platform over acouple of days at a seminar or event.
(22:22):
So there's every good reason why I like AHIF, but I think it really is the personalrelationships.
And the program is always to me designed around building personal relationships betweenthose in the industry.
And I myself, I'm not in the industry, I'm a...
outside consultant, but I have developed personal relationships with so many individualsthat I've met at AF over many years and I keep in regular contact with them and they
(22:49):
become my clients.
In fact, some of them have become my clients over the years as well.
it's an educational experience that has a networking overlap that is second to none.
Certainly when I look at many other conferences that I attend.
Well, we love you being there and we can't wait to see you in June and no doubt, fingerscrossed, maybe the landscape is even more positive and whatnot, but there will always be
(23:17):
change in the African market and the world market as we know it.
So I look forward to that update as we get it in June.
And thank you again, Daniel, for joining us today with all your insights.
Matt, thanks for having me.
I'm delighted that I don't have to travel too far to this AIHF.
Although it's an almost walk to the conference.
(23:41):
So thank you, Matt.
And it's always a pleasure dealing with bench events and the broader team as well.
So thank you.
Thanks again, Daniel.
(24:05):
that go Osama.
Are we all good?
I don't know if you can crop out my wi-fi, that was a little bit rubbish in thebackground.
I forgot to move that.
(24:26):
Were you happy with that Daniel?
I'm happy with that, are you happy with it?
yep, yep, I'm always happy.
I see it says 99 % uploading.
I can see that there.
(24:49):
Okay.
Who gives a shout if you're in London and you want a cup of tea or something, somethingstronger.
The Westin.
(25:10):
Yeah, and the CICC.
So in fact, one of the things to tell you is just for the morning, the main morning, we'regoing to close the rest of the conference, like the exhibit, and move over to the CICC
where we can do all the...
So...
Hopefully it makes all the bigger sessions packed.
I know yours is always busy anyway.
(25:32):
But then we just focus on those bigger picture stuff and then actually a lot of the othersessions are going to be those workshops.
So because they rate so highly.
So Tanya and Sontran are putting the agenda together now based around that.
We have an advisory board in Dubai in January.
(25:55):
and Marla and I will probably come down to your neck of woods February March for a bit ofa recce and a promotion sometime as well.
if I don't see you London before then, please let me know when you are, when you're downand we'll catch up and if there's anything else, just let me know.
(26:16):
Any other promos or any other video or anything for social media or anything else otherthan this.
Always happy to assist.
Thanks Daniel, appreciate it and lovely seeing you as always.
both, might add, yes.
So we will welcome
Sama's gonna get there because we've...
(26:38):
Sama's Pakistani and got stuck in transit in South Africa.
Yes, I seem to recall there was some issue with...
yeah, Yeah, well, go figure.
I hope we're getting a little bit more efficient with that.
And a few others have had the same issues, actually.
(27:00):
But I think they are trying to improve this.
We've got a new Minister of Home Affairs, Home Office Minister in South Africa.
And he comes from...
is it?
They never had it before.
given that you did nothing for the last 20 years.
But we do have a new minister who comes from the major opposition party and it's reallynew broom sweep clean there.
(27:23):
So in fact, I mean, it really is a case where if there are any specific issues with visas,you must let me know.
because I can get access to this particular minister if I have to.
So if there's some major visa issue, I'll try, I can't, guarantee it, but I've got to endwith this lot.
(27:48):
Thank you.
I think actually Marla's done a cracking job hasn't she Osama?
She's sort of worked it out but yeah it was horrible for long while and it wasn't apleasant experience by any stretch.
Well, I mean, even for our, and maybe Osama, you'll relate to this, not that I'msuggesting that things are inefficient in back home where you are, but for us getting a
(28:12):
passport, you know, could have resulted in standing in a line, you know, for, you know, 10hours a day outside, outside the Department of Home Affairs building, you know, unless you
knew someone or had some sort of official in.
And I believe this has been cleared and I believe it's more efficient and I've got to geta passport next year.
(28:36):
you so there are some little, you've got to, the thing is, Matt, you've got to live longenough to see improvements and there you go.
Yeah, that's very true.
If it was always good, you would never have anything to compare it against, would you?
That's the thing as well.
have any work.
The problem is it mustn't be too good because then I don't have any work.
So I'm very happy when things are more rock.
(28:57):
I don't work in...
Yeah, I need an unstable environment.
I have a good friend who's in private equity, he loves it.
He loves it when it's all going to crap.
He's like, this is exactly what I want.
Anyway, look, I have to go.
I've got another another cool buzzing, but...
to see you as always and we will touch very soon.
Cheers Daniel, thanks for your time.
(29:18):
Thanks to Summer.
Bye bye.
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