“A Daring Faith in a Cowardly World” Ken Harrison AlongTheWay 129

Episode Transcript
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John Matarazzo (00:01):
Well, Ken Harrison, it is great to have
you on along the way. We'veconnected a few times in the
past, once while you were aguest on the TV show that I
produced back in Pittsburgh,called real life. And then
recently, I did I had to do onthe charisma news podcast to
talk about your book, daringfaith in a cowardly world, live

(00:23):
a life without waste, regret, oranything unfinished. And we had
a great conversation, and I knewthat I wanted to have a longer
bit of time to talk with youabout your story. And So Ken,
welcome to the along the waypodcast. Oh, thanks, John. Ken
is the Chairman and CEO ofPromise Keepers, as well as a

(00:45):
lot of other things that we'regoing to talk about today? And
kind of just like you to talkabout your story, like, how did
you come to know Jesus? How didGod lead you to where you are
today? I know, it's kind of anopen ended question, but I just
kind of want to hear your story.

Ken Harrison (01:01):
No, I appreciate it. Because mine, I think my
backgrounds maybe it's veryunique and different, but also
so that might really help a lotof people out there. My dad was
on the Los Angeles PoliceDepartment had been shot in the
Watts riots and retired ourfamily up to Oregon when I was a
kid and become a Christian. Whenonce he first got to Oregon, and

(01:23):
so did I at five, you know, fiveyears old. I really got saved. I
mean, like filled the Spiritloves the Lord would preach to
everybody wherever I could go. Iused to go with all the people
from tri city Baptist Temple andput on my little clip on tie and
my white patent leather shoesand go knock on doors and
handout tracks. And one day Ichased Ricky Nelson. Down the

(01:48):
corridor of the airport, my momsaid he was a famous rock star.
So I chased him down I witnessto that guy for five minutes.
And he sat there and listened tome.

Wow, how old were you? I was six. You were
six. At that six years. It's

amazing to remember how gracious he was
listening to me, I handed him atrack and said, I hope I'd see
my church on Sunday, you know.
But, you know, I say often, Iwas still the spirit. And it
took the church about 10 yearsto beat the spirit out of me.
Because you you really, reallyloving the Lord, that's such an

(02:21):
early age, it dominatedeverything in my worldview, how
I saw things. And I went to aChristian school, it was very
legalistic. And so this was the1970s. You know, everybody had
long hair and listen to rock androll and all that stuff. I
couldn't do anything. I had abuzz cut. And so I got the
target out of me constantly. Imean, I was bullied viciously. I

(02:43):
would say that, you know, I'vegotten a lot of fist fights, but
they were really fistfights.
They were maybe getting beat up.
So all that, you know, just butjust still love Jesus. Man. I
used to listen to like Keithgreen cassette tapes and all
that stuff. But then, when I was15, I should say I should say,

(03:03):
actually, when I was 12. Irealized that the Jesus that the
church was teaching me was notthat Jesus that I knew. I mean,
I really had 12 New Christ. Andeverything they talked about was
how bad everybody was. You know,you couldn't listen to
rock'n'roll music, you couldn'tgamble, you couldn't drink. You
couldn't play cards. I don'tknow what's wrong with cards. If

(03:26):
it was fun, it was a sin. Andthat's the church I went to
right. And I just like,confused, because I love Jesus.
And I had a huge respect forauthority. I was a very obedient
kid. And so I started readingscripture every day at 12. Like,
every day, three chapters, theBible, no matter what I would
say, by the time I was about 15,I knew the Bible really well.

(03:47):
And I didn't know it in a way toargue I just knew it because I
wanted to know Jesus. Before my,my school had had it with me
knowing the Bible, becauselegalists don't like people who
know the Bible. That's true.
They want people who just listento them and feel bad. So I was
just asking us the questions.
Teacher, you said this, but thisversus that. And so finally,
this threw me out of school.

Wow, you got thrown out of a Christian
school? Because you're askingbiblical based questions,

was asking questions that teachers couldn't
be asked their way through. AndI would just naive enough to
continue while you say this, butwhat about that, and I was
constantly getting attentionthrown out of class. And after a
while, I mean, I guess my little15 year old mind was starting to
think maybe these people arefull of crap. You know, I wasn't
I wasn't sure yet. But it wasstarting to set up that way.
Right. So then I got thrown intohuge, my my I had gone to school

(04:38):
from the time of fifth gradewith the same like, eight kids
that were my age. And thensuddenly, I'm thrown into high
school, 2000 kids public highschool, in my junior high
school. So the only thing thatreally saved me in that regard
was I became the basketball starof the school. But otherwise, I
still didn't know what was goingon, you know, very naive

and tall Were you in high school? Six, three,
okay.

And I had just really high jumping ability and
things and discovered all kindsof things about my athletic
ability, which, of course, Ididn't know what this little
tiny school because there wereno sports, you know, so but I
suddenly realized I coulddominate in a basketball court.
And so I did all that and thengot a basketball scholarship to
a Christian college. And I was,you know, had been preceded by

(05:25):
some bigger schools, but stillat that mentality of, well, I
need to go to a Christianschool. So I went to Christian
college and got kicked out ofthere. This time, what did you
get kicked out or for, for beinga punk? Okay, I started, I
started to realize this wholeworld was just filled with liars

(05:46):
and cowards, you know, and Ireally started realizing even my
college professors, they didn'treally know the Bible. And now,
you know, now I'm 18 years old,and I'm just getting disgusted
with everything I'm seeingaround me. I'm trying to look
for Christ. But everywhere elseI look, it's a bunch of fakers
and hypocrites. And that's whenI finally started to go on
enough of this, you know, itwasn't sin. And it wasn't like,

(06:07):
I wasn't doing anything wrong. Iwas still in a sense of driven
snow. It was just like, disgustwith what was supposed to be the
church around me, you know, youwant to be a part of that
institution. And then I wentaway to the Marine Corps. And,
and came back really kind offilled with all the anger of

(06:28):
there's a bunch of stuff thathappened, but all the anger of
sort of this whole world I knew,I felt like I knew Christ really
well. And I did. I really didknow Christ. But where was this
church thing? And I was angry.
My brothers was kind of a same.
My two younger brothers, theywere stood athletes, and they
were kind of on that same pathwith me. So it just started

(06:49):
getting a lot of fistfights. Imean, I got a job as a doorman
at like the really the roughestbar in town. It was in
fistfights every night, youknow, drunks and all this kind
of stuff. So it's just kind of arough street fighting life of
just trying to figure it allout. Like I love Jesus, here's
the deal. But where are theChristians? Like where,

(07:11):
everywhere I turn, it's justflyers and all that stuff. So
then I went off and joined theLos Angeles Police Department.
And then around that time, afterabout a year on the LAPD, that's
when God called me back, I wasactually, again, not living a
terribly sinful lifestyle, butit's living an angry lifestyle,
you know, just a violentlifestyle. But I was running.

(07:34):
And I had my little Walkman andI had listened to pirate, heavy
metal radio and went too far onmy little dial channel. People
are older, remember what thosewere like? Yeah. And I ended up
on the viola with David Hawking.
And by the time I got done withmy run, I came back and it fell
on my knees to get my life backto Christ and walk with him ever
since. That's my

Wow. Five Minute background. Wow. That's you
covered a lot there, Ken. So ifI understand this correctly,
your dad was a police officer inLA, then moves away to Oregon.
Is that what you said, Oregon,right. But then you become a
police officer back in the samearea that he left. What made you

(08:14):
go to LA?

The LAPD for those who don't know, it's sort of
it's always been considered thebest police department in the
world. You know, there's, you'llnever hear a Los Angeles
policeman say I was a cop. He'llalways say I was a Los Angeles
police. Kind of like, you know,Army, Navy Air Force, those guys
will say I was in the military,you'll never hear a marine say

(08:38):
he was in the military. A Marinewill say, I'm a Marine. Right?
That's kind of how the LAPD is.
It's, there's no overweightcops, there's no corruption. The
training is brutal. Almosteveryone in the police academy
with me was either ex Marine,Special Forces Navy SEAL. It was
a stud department. And it'sstill pretty even despite all of
the stuff that's going on, it'sstill a pretty darn good

(09:01):
department. But that's why itwas it was the best of the best,
at least as far as I understood.

So the same thing that attracted you to the
Marines attracted you to theLAPD?

They just wanted to be the best. Yeah. And so
that

desire to be the best really has kind of led you
on your, on your journey withthe Lord. You know, that desire
to be close to him? It despitethe surroundings and despite not
being able to really find thatconnection with the local church
or, you know, just as you weretalking about you were you were
angry about what was, you know,you were angry. You love Jesus,

(09:38):
but you didn't like Christians,I guess. Is that a good way to
say that?

Yeah, yeah, it was. Yeah, of course, I had had
a lot of experience with them.
Right? You know, so my wholelife revolved around Christians.

So tell me about that moment when you turn that
dial too far and turned on theBiola Bible hour or The whatever
that whatever that program wascalled, because that obviously
made a big impact in your life.

Yeah. I mean, David Hawking was a great
preacher. Well known back inthose days. And, you know, I
think I was probably aprecursor. Now this we're
talking 33 years ago, to a lotof the generation of today, I
was looking for authenticity, Iwas looking for real. And I just
found that Christians weren'treal. They're all trying to play

(10:27):
a game. They're all performingfor each other. And especially
on the LAPD, you know, life wasreal. Maybe I mean, you hold on,
you hold people in their arms,or they're dying. You know, you
get in shootings, you get youryour friends blown up with their
intestines hanging out of them,and you're calling for an
ambulance. It's real. There's nojunk. And then you go to church,

(10:48):
and you find these people withtheir fake smiles, and they're
being fake, nice in the parkinglot. And there's just something
about it that kind of brings itall to fruition. And I suppose
that's why my calling I think isso intensely to bring Christians
into true discipleship withChrist to realize, let's be who
we are, you know, we teach areal falsehood in the church

(11:10):
today. I think it's taken rootdeeply, especially in the
Evangelical Church, which isthat you're a bad person, John,
you're really, really bad. ButJesus loves you anyway. So
congratulations, John. I try notto be bad. But if you are, Jesus
still loves you. Now, that isactually 99%. Accurate, right?

(11:30):
Yeah. But what does it miss?
What's it miss? and Mrs.
Identity? Because what I did wasI just put an identity on you if
you're a bad person. And that'swhat you heard, right? Yeah. And
if you're in bed, he just lovesyou. So try to do bad, but I
mean, what's the purpose ofmerely being good? You said the
prayer here on The Club. Andthat was really the the
fakeness, I was seeing peopletry to not be who they really

(11:53):
are. Here's the real realmessage of the gospel, John,
you're a bad person. Jesus lovesyou anyway. And he died for your
sins so that you could become aSon of the Most High God. That
is now your identity. Now youcan choose to take that identity
or not, you can choose to revelin your identity of being a
senator. What's so much of theNew Testament is about is put on

(12:16):
the new identity that JesusChrist has given you be a prince
be a son of living God. AndJesus says to the overcomer, I
will allow to sit on my throneat my Father's right hand. Are
you kidding me? So for those ofus who are overcomers, or
victorious, the Greek word wouldbe the one who won the race. We
can actually sit on the thronewith Jesus Christ next to the

(12:38):
Fathers right here. Yeah, butonly the overcomers. Now we get
to a reason for being real,being authentic, no need to put
on my little face. I want to bewho I really am authentic. As a
stress, Son of the living God,who will struggle who will make
mistakes. But boy, when I make amistake, Repent, get up and keep

(12:59):
going. Because there's work tobe done. And that's the message
I think, that we want to get outthere. It's why I wrote this
book.

Yeah. And with your involvement with Promise
Keepers, I'm sure. I mean, as aman, what you're talking about
dealing with identity andcalling men up to a higher
standard, you know, to a higheridentity. I'm sure that really
resonates and has been veryeffective in your ministry. How
have you gone from a policeofficer, you know, kind of an

(13:27):
identity change into ministry?
Like what what were some of thesteps that happened there?

Well, there was a big step of business in between.
So yeah, after all the RodneyKing stuff in Los Angeles. I
left my uncle was a captain onthe LAPD. He was really one of
the most famous La cops ever.
And for those of the guys whoknow he was a commanding officer
vest is which is a very elitegroup on the LAPD and he was

(13:53):
kind of attached to the hatsquad that fought them off you
out of Los Angeles in the early60s, you know, and he called me
up to his, his house in SanClemente, you know, doing all
the Rodney King stuff. And heused to sit there and it's when
he retired, just like 1992. Andhe'd sit there with his folding
chair in front of his house bythe beach with his 44 Magnum
minute, listening to RushLimbaugh. It sounds quite a

(14:16):
picture. Oh, yeah. He is sitthere with his coffee from nine
to 12 every morning with a biggrin. And I remember walking up
there to see Gordon. And helooks at me and says, Look,
Kenny, that the feds are gonnaget involved in the LAPD and
they're gonna destroy it. And Idon't want you to be around to
see it. It's not going to be thegreat department that it was for

(14:37):
you, your dad and me and yourgreat uncle. So once you go and
run a company or something, andso I did. I left the LAPD and
got into business. And Godreally blessed that I was able
to be able to build a new areally large business. I sold
that 2006 2006 Then I took overand run the international
business. So across the worlduntil two 2012 steered this big

(14:59):
commercial real estate firmthrough the biggest commercial
real estate meltdown in history.
Yeah, and we did really well,thanks to the law. I mean, it
was really the night. I don'tsay that, as a mighty lay, it's
a longer story. But literally,it was God's grace that caused
our company to do so well, wheneverybody else is doing
terribly. So then I retired in2012, I'd made enough money and

(15:23):
life for me had been a reallyintense, hard and fast road. And
now I was 45 years old, andreally said, Okay, I'm gonna,
I'm gonna retire now 45 I'vemade some money, and raise my
kids and, and live the rest ofmy life for myself. That was
really how I got to there. Yeah.
So the next step is,

hold on. Before we go to that next step. I want
to talk about that thatconversation you had with your
uncle? Like, how did you receivethat? Because you're about to
make a huge life change rightthere. And I think for me,
that's something that I'm alwaysinterested in. Whenever somebody
comes to a place where they knowthat they you have to make a
life change, or it's presentedto you. Because I think for
myself, and I think a lot ofguys deal with this, our

(16:08):
identity is often wrapped up inwhat we do. And so you're going
from being a police officer tobeing a business man. Can you
just talk a little bit aboutthat before we move on to your
retirement?

Yeah, I mean, it's actually a pretty interesting
story, because I'm actuallyskating over obviously, a lot of
drama. It's never as easy as itsounds in a story, right? Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, my identity, Imean, my whole life, all I
wanted to do was be in LA cop.
And now the LAPD you know, in92, nobody knew what was going
to happen. And again, the LAPDwas the best of the best. There
was no corruption. There was no,you know, you hear about cops in

(16:42):
Philadelphia or something, youknow, getting $20 for the
ticket. It didn't happen in LosAngeles. So it was it was kind
of a mourning of gosh, you know,people screwed this thing up.
Before I you know, now I'm, Idon't get to go and, and be a
part of have a whole careerthis. But there was another side
of it, too, that my wife wasreally, she was my highschool
sweetheart, I I saw her in acarload full of girls who's

(17:05):
pulled over and asked medirections to a party. I looked
in the backseat, went home andtold my mom I just saw there go,
I'm gonna marry, you know, Imean, it was out. Yeah. And my
mom said, Well, who is she? Idon't know. But she was in a
bunch of Karla girls from myhigh school. So I'll find out
who it was. And it's prettyfunny because that next Monday,
I was walking down the halltelling my friend Dwayne Dickey,

(17:26):
by the way, and my friend DwayneDickey married a woman named
Nikki. Oh, so his poor wife'sname is Nikki dickey. You know,
telling him that, you know, andthen there's she walks by us in
the hallway, I'm like, that'sher. And so, Elliot was a mirror
into who I was. And I wasdefinitely becoming a big city

(17:46):
cop. I was a cop in southcentral i, which is watts
Compton, very high crime. And Iwas becoming a mean, bitter cop.
I mean, I was already naturallyangry from all the stuff I'd
seen as we went through already.
Yeah. So pre conditioned tobeing angered at the lack of
justice. You know, what you sawin the LAPD? Wasn't like a lot

(18:10):
of people make out the communityof South Central LA and the only
people were very close. Youknow, I mean, probably half the
cops were black or Latino andthe other half were white, in
that area. And on Sundays,everyone would fight to see who
got to work on Sundayafternoons, because Sunday
afternoon was the best.
Everybody that I went to church.
Everybody came home andeverybody barbecued. And so on

(18:33):
Sunday afternoon, literallypeople would just run out stop
your black and white officers.
You got to come back and havesome barbecue, you know, really?
The car walked in the backyard.
Oh, yeah, it was you know whenRodney King happened in the
press is talking about thecommunity mad at the cops. It
was such garbage. None of thatwas true. It was all a massive
pent up anger between Koreansand and blacks and had nothing

(18:54):
to do with white people or thecops or any of that stuff. It
was all press created. So I wasseeing just lies everywhere
disingenuousness. And so I didleave the LAPD with sadness. But
then I didn't know what to do.
It wasn't like I just started agreat business right away. It
took a couple of years. And infact, that actually is pretty
funny because it's interestingstory, but actually gave up and

(19:15):
I knew I was doing what God didnot want me to do, but I
actually applied for a smallerPolice Department. Because I'm
like, Well, I don't I don't knowhow to make it. So I applied for
the Vancouver Washington PoliceDepartment, which is a suburb of
Portland, Oregon. Because we gotback there and wow, LAPD holy
cow, you know, they put me tothe front of the line said
you're as good as hired. We justhave to go through the

(19:38):
formalities with so we wentthrough everything. And the last
thing was an interview with thecommunity. Okay, so I sit there
with the community and there's abunch of people there, the chief
of police, and this woman askedme, How many felony arrests did
you make? And so I was like, ah,about 40. And so, the Chief of
Police is what Wait a minute,you said you made 40 felony

(20:01):
arrests? I said, Yeah, he goes,that seems like so many the last
officer here, I've only made 10felony arrests in 10 years is a
lot of you police wrote and Isaid no, no, not 40, total 40
per month. And I remember, therewas like a, like a gas in the
audience. I said, Yeah, I mean,I took over 25 guns off the
street per month, I made over 40rally restaurants. It was

(20:24):
Compton. What do you think? So Igot a letter from them saying
no, thank you. So many arrests,because all of the violence and
the all that they were afraidthat I'd be way too aggressive.
And they were right. I mean, youget programmed. You know, when
somebody's in South Central UScenturies, for the waistband,
they're reaching for a gun.

(20:44):
Somebody in Vancouver,Washington reaches for the
waistband, they're probablyreaching down to tighten their
belt, you know, and how you'vebeen programmed to react could
cause really something bad tohappen. And so yeah, there's no
way a cop from South Central LosAngeles had any business being a
cop in suburban Portland,Oregon, right? So at a bottom
point that I really had to geton my knees and pray to the

(21:05):
Lord. And so in 94, that's whenI really it took me two years to
really get it all figured out.
That's when I got into business.
And the experiences as a policeofficer, and knowing scripture
really well, really led me to bevery successful in business.

Okay, how does knowing scripture really well
actually apply to business? Imean, I know that it does. But I
just want to hear your storiesabout that. Because that that's
such a good lead in to this nextto this next segment.

Because it teaches you how to think, yeah, here's
the thing with scripture, ifyou're really studying God's
word, and you get throughthings, you have to deeply think
your way through things. And youhave to think your way through
things that you actually can'tcomprehend. Totally. Right,
especially when you're 12, likeI was when I first started
reading it. so deeply thinkingthrough Scripture and praying
through it and making make it Itall makes sense. When you're

(21:54):
reading the whole Bible in itsentirety. You have to learn how
to critically think and makethings make sense. So having
such a deep, self taught,scriptural study habit, when it
came to getting into businessand analyzing strategy, being in
rooms and trying to figure outwho was full of crap and who was

(22:15):
telling me the truth. I waspretty darn equipped from
learning how to think by readingthe Bible.

That's so good.
That is so good. What are someof your favorite stories in the
Bible about critical thinking?

So think about this guy in the Bible named Jay
who? Jay Who is this is a littlethrowaway story. He's anointed
to be the next king of ofIsrael. But he's not the king.
Ahab is the king. Ahab, veryevil, passive guy dominated by
his wife, Jezebel gets killed.
So Jezebel takes over and usurpsthe throne. She puts a puppet in
her place, but she's really incharge. So Jay, who is a soldier

(22:52):
in the army? He's just hangingout one day. When he Alicia
says, somebody go tell Jay who,why are you hanging out doing
that you're supposed to be theking, go become the king. So
prophet is dispatched from fromElashi comes to Jehu. And he
says that God wants to know whyyou're sitting here doing
nothing. Go kill that womanJezebel. So the Prophet leaves.

(23:12):
Yeah, he walks into all theother men are and they're like,
Who is that freak? I mean, it'sliterally what the Bible says,
Who was that freak, you know?
And he goes out here to what,nothing? And I'm like, Oh, we
could tell you what, it'ssomething. And Jamie says, I
need to go kill Jezebel. I'mgonna miss it. We're with you.
So J, who gets on a horse andstarts writing right to where
both the kings of both Judah andIsrael are both hiding because

(23:34):
they've been in battle, and theyboth got wounded. He's riding
out there and the watchman up onthe tower looks out and sees a
guy coming. And the king says,Who's that coming so fast? And
the watchman says, He rides likea madman. He writes, like, he
writes like Jay who. So Jay wasgiven this this task. Now he's
riding like a wild man toaccomplish it. So the kings of

(23:56):
Judah and Israel come out andthey're curious to see what he
wants to Javed kills both ofthem and tells all the men with
him. We're going to killJezebel. They keeps writing in a
town. He gets to town andthey're just about walks out and
says Abell, for those who don'tknow or remember, had basically
emasculated the Men of Israel,the men of Israel had let this
woman dominate them through aweak husband. She had

(24:18):
slaughtered all the prophets ofGod. She'd promoted the horrible
practices of the God but all andnow she's done through
sensuousness and all this kindof thing. She comes out on the
balcony, and she looks down andshe says to Jay, who some
insulting thing she basicallysays to him, you know, you and I
can roll together. What do youthink you're doing? And Jay who

(24:41):
looked points up and he says tothe two units next to her, throw
that woman down, so they pick upJezebel to throw her off the
balcony and she hits the ground,and the Bible says that her
blood splattered all over thewalls. So Jay, who coldly steps
over her dead body, walks in andhas a meal. When he walks back
out the eat dogs have eaten herentire body and left nothing but

(25:03):
a few body parts her hands andwish fulfilled the prophecy
they've been told. Yeah. Sothat's Jehu. So you've got a guy
who is a nobody. But God annoys,and then once he's anointed, he
still doesn't do anything withit. And he got asked to say,
Hey, I told you that you'resupposed to be the king, are you
gonna go do it or not. And oncehe's given that sense of

(25:25):
confidence, not only does hedoes, he does it like a wild
man, the Bible says, like witheverything in him, and he finds
that may 1, he tells these othersoldiers, he didn't want
anything, he doesn't thinkthey're gonna believe him. But
when he, when he tells him hismission from God, he realizes
there's a lot more people on hisside than that he knew. Now,
here's the rest of the story onJay, who he liked what he did so

(25:45):
much that he goes and keepslaughtering people. And he goes
into some really horrificthings. And they're all people
who are supposedly enemies ofGod, but he ends up killing a
lot of people. And God says,later on in the day, he went too
far, and he cursed hisgeneration down to the fourth
generation. So when God givesthe mission, we can either
choose to accept it or not, wecan either choose to walk in the

(26:06):
identity he has for us or not.
The second thing is, when wechoose to do it, are we going to
do it with everything in us?
Third, though, when we'veaccomplished God's task, we
don't keep going in our ownwill. Wow, so many of us get
addicted to that glory, or thatmountaintop experience of giving
God's will. And then Jay, hewants so far the other way that

(26:27):
he ends up becoming a curse tohis people. So he asked me for a
story that I find you criticallythink your way through. And that
whole story I just gave you fromthe Bible is probably like seven
verses. But when you really stopand think your way, all the way
through that and what it allmeant. It really begins to have
some profound truths. Thedangers of weak men, Jezebel,

(26:48):
was able to be this one of themost evil people in Scripture.
Why? Because of weak men,passive men. And then it took
one man to stand up. You know,there's another passage of
Scripture is very short, buthorrible, horrible moment, where
Israel is under siege. And theking comes up and finds these

(27:08):
two women squabbling. So thearmies are camped outside of
Israel. Normally, when an armywould come and surround a city,
that city however long the waterlasted, was how long the people
would last. Israel actually hada spring inside the city so that
they had national water. Sorather, they could survive a
long time, but they weren'tstarving to death. So all the
people were starving to death.
And so the King comes up. Andhe's women are arguing, he says

(27:30):
what you guys are arguing about,and a woman says, Well, you
know, we agreed that yesterdaywe had boil my baby and eat it.
If we could boil her baby needit tomorrow, but we ate my baby
yesterday. And now she won'tgive me her baby to eat today.
And the king is so angry, and herips his robes and he's so
angry, and he screams he's angryat God. And eventually the
Babylonians break in and theyslaughter everybody. God is

(27:51):
giving a description of thatwhole thing in a different book
of the Bible and says, regardingthat moment, I looked for one
man to stand on the gap. And Icould find no one. God, look for
one man who would showleadership and ambition is
diverse word, and he couldn'tfind a single person. And that's

(28:11):
what resulted in such evil,which again, then the people
immediately all blamed God for.
So another tiny little storyfrom the Bible, the importance
of us standing up being strong,accomplishing the mission that
God's given us. And that's whyyou had a 12 year old, very
angry Ken Harrison, because Iwas like, Where are the real

(28:34):
men, I just see a frickin fakenerdy church people running
around with their fake nerdystuff, and hiding in their
little culture, where the menwho are standing up and saying
this is what God's Word says.
And I'm gonna stand up forwhat's right. And I think that's
what the world is waiting forgodly man to stand up and be
counted and be strong.

Yeah, and I'm getting convicted, but
encouraged all at the same timeby you telling these stories.
And I knew by asking thatquestion that you weren't gonna
give me some, some little story.
I knew you were gonna go deep,and it was gonna be something
very manly. And I appreciatethat. Because I'm I love Old
Testament stories. I get so muchout of it, just looking at these
people. That, you know, God usedbroken people all throughout the

(29:16):
Bible, but I love that. You justyou explained about Jay who
that, you know, when we'veaccomplished what God calls us
to do, we need to not get caughtup in our own glory. I mean,
that's really convicting,because it's super easy to just
say, well, this is how I'vealways done it or, you know,
look at me and get prideful andarrogant, you know, especially I

(29:38):
think as guys, again, we getcaught up in our in our
identity. And even whenever Godgives us something to do,
sometimes he says, Okay, that'sthat that season's over. You got
to move on to the next thingI've got for you. Wow, thank you
so much for for for going indepth with that. That was
wonderful. But as you went fromone season in the police to a
season and beyond This and nowyou're writing and you're in

(30:01):
ministry. How did you go frombusiness to ministry?

That's the interesting story. It's, it's
when I go into the book a littlebit, but I really want to
impress on a lot of people,because I have a feeling. You
know, every time I go intointerview, I pray, Lord, give me
what people need to hear in thisparticular interview. And I sort
of feel like this is where themessage I want to get across.
Because people look at someonewho, you know, has written
books, who runs a big ministry,or as it has a big church, and

(30:28):
they just they go somehow, hejust got there. It's certainly
my case, that wasn't how it wentdown. So I retired 2012 45. And
I really had a really great planto do nothing for the rest of my
life. And I did nothing forabout a year. And people will
tell me, how can you're so typeA, you'll be miserable. Let me

(30:50):
tell you, John, I was notmiserable. I live in Colorado.
So the time of my life, I wasskiing and hiking and rafting
and coaching my son's footballteams and getting my daughter
into Liberty University. And itwas just great time. And I was
shopping for a ranch to buy aranch and settle down. And

(31:10):
during that time, I was reallygood able to read some of the
really great books that I'vealways wanted to read, but
they're way too long, like, youknow, institutes of the
Christian religion by Calvin,bunch of the will by Luther. And
then you know, like, like otherworks that aren't Christian like
Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. Imean, who has time read Atlas
Shrugged, right. So I got to doall that stuff. I was having a

(31:31):
great time. And that was in mymy closet. I literally have a
prayer closet, and the dark,just praying and really having
one of those incredibly closemoments of the Lord that you
wish every prayer could be like,but only some of them are right.
And all of a sudden I heard hisvoice. And I'd he'd never talked
to him like this before. And allof a sudden, he said, Can I did

(31:53):
not put you through everything Idid, and teach you everything I
did. So you could ski and hikefor the rest of your life. And I
said, What do you want me to doLord? It through the shock that
he just talked to me like that?
And he said, Are you willing tobe as ambitious for my kingdom,
as you were for your kingdom?

(32:14):
Wow. And I was stunned. And Isat there for a minute. And then
I got this warning. It said, Becareful of your answer. It's
going to cost you your life. SoI started to whine at God, in my
lesser fine moments. I said,Lord, I'm tired. I'm tired of
conflict and tired ofconfrontation. I'm just tired of

(32:37):
firing people and being sued andhaving all this stuff of leading
and leadership. I mean, I ran ahuge company, I'm just I just
want to be alone for a while.
And God said, that's okay. Butshe'll miss my full blessing.
And I had a vision. And I'mlike, I'm not somebody gets
vision. So this is like, I'm aBaptist. So I had a vision of

(32:57):
the judgment seat of Christ,where he showed me the life I
lived the next 50 years on mylittle ranch somewhere in
Colorado. And it was a nice,happy life. And then I had a
vision of what I would haveaccomplished had I given all for
Christ. But didn't it but neverhappened. And I had this weeping

(33:19):
and gnashing of teeth over mywasted life because I chose
comfort over Christ. And I stillwrestled for two hours with God,
I thought I don't I don't knowwhat lay down my whole life
means but it doesn't sound good.
And even though as what Christdemands of us and the Sermon on
the Mount, you know, what doesthat mean? Does that mean I get

(33:41):
sick for the rest of my life?
Does that mean I ended up inNairobi, you know, straight
saving street children, or whatis it lay down my whole life
means that of course, Goddoesn't give you the menu before
you choose. You choose to laydown your life first. And then
he shows you. So after two hoursof struggling with him, I
finally said, you know, Lord,you know me, and whatever you
want, my life is yours. Myreputation is yours. My money is

(34:05):
yours. Whatever you have for me,I want to have your best. And he
said, I'll tell you what I havefor you when you're ready. And
that was it. So his finalpronouncement on me at that
moment is you're not even readyto accomplish my task yet. And
then he was silent for threeyears. Three years, three years.
I didn't hear anything. So forthree years now I was free to do

(34:26):
what exactly I said I wanted todo read and ski and hike and all
these things and wondering whatwas that all about? What is this
call? Why am I sitting here nowdoing nothing. And of course, I
realized that God was preparingme for what the call would be.
There was at one point my wifeis very prophetic, very godly

(34:47):
woman. And so I said to herLook, I I keep praying whatever
this call is it's God gave meWhat is this? And she said, you
know can I've been praying andthe only word I keep getting is
Wait Huh, wait, wait, wait. LikeI don't like that word. No, I
want to definitely not tell Godto give you a different word. So
I finally, like a kid, you know,I grabbed a thermos full of

(35:10):
coffee. I grabbed my little NewTestament with the Psalms and
Proverbs climbed up in themountains to watch the sun come
up. But I told God, I'm gonnasit here and tell you give me an
answer about what thatconversation we had three years
ago was like, This isridiculous. And so I just opened
up the Bible. The first person Iopen to was Psalm 2714. Wait and

(35:32):
Lord, be patient and strong awayto the Lord. So, I guess he's
laughing at me like, Yeah, Itold you to wait, and I mean,
wait. So finally, whenwaterstone, the foundation, I
run came up, somebody said,Waterstones looking for a new
CEO. And I walked in and showedmy wife my iPhone and said, Hey,

(35:53):
this is my next job. And shesaid, Well, who's waterstone? I
said, I don't know. So what dothey do? I don't know. But it
was my next job. And I knewimmediately when God called me
and then a year later, thePromise Keepers thing came about
and I've been running bothwaterstone and Promise Keepers
ever since.

So, God called you to run waterstone. Can you
tell us a bit about what you dothere?

Yeah, Waterstones is an unbelievable thing. It's a
foundation. And what it does isit helps people to give away
money to Christian causes. Thatmassively saves them tax taxes
and all that. So you takecomplicated assets. So as an
example, really easy examplewould be if if somebody had $100

(36:39):
worth of Amazon stock theybought six years ago, and that
$100 Apple stock is now worth$500. Right? Because it went up
so much. Most people if theywere going to give would say,
Well, let me sell I'm gonna givemy church $100 I'll sell $100
for the Amazon stock and give itto my church. Right? Yeah, if
they did that, they would paycapital gains on that. And then
they would give it to the churchand get an income tax write off.

(37:02):
If you don't go throughwaterstone, you don't pay
capital gains, and you get thefull tax write off so you you
save more money taxes, yourchurch gets more money. So
waterstone does that times about1000, as far as complicated,
people give oil and gas wellsand parts of their business and
all these different things thatfund all kinds of amazing
Christian ministries. SoWatterson gives away about two

(37:24):
and a half million dollars perweek.

Week. Wow. per week. Yeah, fine. Sounds like
fun, is a blessing away money.

And what's really great man is I get to, you know,
we don't deny a lot of grants.
But I get to sometimes we justhad somebody who wanted to give
to a Christian organization. Andthey asked us to give a grant of
a million dollars. I won't saywho it was. So we always check
out the Christian organizationthis Christian organization has
in their bylaws that they willdefend and support gay marriage.
So we called the people up andsaid, Are you aware that this is

(37:57):
in there? No, we weren't, we didnot give that Christian
organization. And the Christiangroup called us and want to know
where their money was. We toldto go pound sand and try to go
read their Bible. You know, sothat's fun, too.

Oh, my goodness.
So you get to be generous, butthen you get to call people out
for not being biblical. And, youknow, not just pound sand is a
great analogy.

That's I don't know what pound sand means. But
I hope it's not something bad.
I've been saying that cliche for30 years.

I don't know, I just imagined somebody you know,
just on the beach, just angryand just, you know, not hurting
anything except their own fist.
I guess that's how I look at it.
But I remember my mother used tosay

when I was a little buttons on your
underwear, buttons on yourunderwear, I guess how old are
you my but that was her thingbuttons on your underwear. You
know a lot of these Christiancolleges and we could get into
all this stuff. It's amazing howmany Christian colleges are
teaching horrific content. Andpeople don't know any better.
And they're giving money to someof these Christian colleges. I
would encourage anybodylistening now, man before you

(39:00):
send your kid off to a Christianschool or you send money to a
year old alumni or whatever. Youmight want to take a serious
look at what they're teaching,because there's a lot of
colleges now that they tellparents who want things. They
still have this front ofChristianity, but behind the
scenes, they're teaching allkinds of horrible godlessness.
We actually had a Christiancollege he was going to get an

(39:21):
$8 million grant from waterstoneto set up and it was all covert,
a whole thing on evolution inthe Christian College to teach
evolution and Darwinism to thestudents and we were able to get
on the way and make sure thatthat didn't happen. waterstone
saved CS Lewis's house, so thekilns and Oxford they were going
to tear his house down and wewere able to come in and buy

(39:42):
that. And now it's a museum thatmany people are blessed to go
to. So Watson is alwaysunbelievably cool, amazing
things is such a blessing.
Because it's like this Christiangroup with serious weight and
power. And when I tellChristians all the time is don't
just be generous. Be wise, inwhat you Give. There's a lot of
Christians that give money togroups that are downright the

(40:03):
enemy. And they don't realize itbecause these groups are good at
selling. That's the thing aboutthe enemy. The enemy is a liar.
Yeah. So be careful before yougive to something just because
the Christians in the name orjust because the coach used to
be a Christian school, you know,this great Christian schools out
there like colored a Christian,Hillsdale, liberty, Grove City
Biola. There's some great ones.

(40:25):
But there are some that arereally bad that people don't
realize, I would much rathersend my kid to a secular college
than some of these

Christian colleges. So you brought up the
fact that you research and youfigure out, like, do these
people actually believe what theBible says? And are they going
to be faithful with this? Imean, the Bible talks a lot
about being a good steward. Andit's not just that you've been a
good steward with your money,and now you're handing it off to
somebody else, and you'reblessing them. No, you're still
being a good steward by makingsure that is going to accomplish

(40:55):
the kingdom purposes. What issome advice that you can give to
people that are like, wow, Ididn't realize that my money
that I'm giving away might notbe going where I think it is,
how do people figure that stuffout?

Well, one of the best things to do start is to
look at their statement offaith. What is their doctrinal
statement on on certain things,like waterstone has one that was
just made for by John Stott, forus back in 1980. We have to stay
within our doctrinal statement.
So that's one, you know, when itcomes to colleges, obviously
just just look at, well, whatare they teaching as for copy of
the curriculum? As for peoplewho know no better, or Paul

(41:29):
waterstone? If you're not sure,because we know a lot of these
groups, and we have our 5500ministries that we support every
year, we have a pretty good ideaof who's good. And we're not
we're not parsing on theology,or any of that kind of stuff.
We're just looking at, do yousubscribe to the basic tenets of
Scripture? So no, anti Israel?
No pro Islam, no. pro gaymarriage, no pro abortion, that

(41:54):
kind of stuff. We're not realnarrow in how we look at it. So
we still give money to certainplaces that I would think would
be better spent somewhere else,but we honor where someone wants
it to go. But yeah, I would sayinform yourself before you start
giving. Don't just get sold.

Yeah. So tell me a little bit about the Promise
Keepers Promise Keepers kind ofwent away for a number of years.
And Gods used you to kind ofbring it back to the forefront
and you're doing things a littlebit different than it was in the
past.

Yeah, so I'm running waterstone, Promise
Keepers pops up. I am asked tocome on the board. I say no, I
don't want to be part of it. Andthe CEO of pharmacies at the
time is basically running out ofgroup that was doing nothing
says I desperately need yourhelp. Can we just come to one
board meeting, so I went to theone board meeting, saw the
financials hit the ceiling. Andso this is a mess. So they voted

(42:41):
me Chairman of the Board. AfterI got done yelling at them all.
And I told them all I becomechairman to close it, because
this is so bad. So I broughtPromise Keepers into waterstone
to close the doors on it. Payoff all the debt, it owed money.
It was just a terrible thing. Soin the process of waterstone
paying off all the debt forPromise Keepers, and then
getting ready to close the door.
It takes a couple of months toclose the doors on a 501 C three

(43:02):
to protect the copyrights andwhatnot. That's when God called
me back. It's a longer story.
But he basically said rememberthe conversation we had in your
closet? This was it. PromiseKeepers. I was like, oh, man, I
don't want to Promise Keepers.

No wonder he wanted to get here. Yes. Before
you told you what it was.

And he still knew COVID was going to come? Yeah,
you know, we put together a bigcomeback at Dallas Cowboys
Stadium in July of 2020. And Isaid, uh, we're not going to
stop, we're gonna go, everybodyelse might close, but we're
going to still do our event. Andthen the governor of Texas, his
office called and said, You'renot doing an event. So we were
forced to cancel and then I gotall this hate mail from people
telling me I was a coward forclosing. I'm like, I didn't we

(43:44):
didn't close. We were you know,what do you want me to do charge
the stadium with machine gunsget in. So we had our event in
July of 21, a Dallas CowboysStadium and it did really well
for middle of all that COVIDstuff. We had 30,000 guys there
got a bunch of great press. Butwe've really frankly realized
that we get way more tractionand effectiveness out of doing

(44:06):
virtual events, especially rightnow. People are not attending
Christian conferences and stuffvery well. Their concerts are
doing okay, but really Christianconferences that people got
really used to staying at homeand seeing things virtually. So
we did a virtual event. And wehad 1.11 point 2 million people
watch in 84 countries. Wow.
Yeah. Crazy. So we've done abunch of mini events, you can go

(44:29):
to prosecutors.org and see thosewe did one on marriage when I
father, one on sexual integrity.
We have a really, reallypowerful one on mental health,
dealing with depression andgrief and guilt and bipolar and
how to deal with it. And he'sthese are all about an hour
long. And we generally get about150,000 people who watch them

(44:50):
live when we release them andthen they're gonna stay on our
on our YouTube channel and stuffso you can see him so Promise
Keepers has a bunch of reallygreat content. What we have
coming out right now I was themental health thing in November.
But we have a 25 year standard,the gap documentary coming out
on October 4, it's the 1.4million men that met in DC 25
years ago. Huge, huge thing. Sowe're doing a documentary on it

(45:13):
that comes out on October 4. Andso I just encourage people you
can get on promise keepers.organd register for everything we
do is free. Yeah, that's notfree. It's for you. Somebody's
paid for it. Right. It's to geton there. And I would just say,
you know, anybody listening tothis, too, if you're saying, I
really wish my son, you know, heneeds help, or my husband or you
know, whatever, there's a bunchof really amazing stuff on

(45:34):
promise keepers.org that you canget them. And then as far as in
person events, we'll still dothem. From time to time, Dallas
was a success. But it won't beour primary thing. Our primary
thing is really, at this point,getting out really godly,
authentic content to men,getting them onto our app, which
is phenomenal. You get downloadthe app, we're getting men into

(45:54):
relationships and getting thembiblical content that they can
have a real men living forChrist in real ways, standing up
for, like I said, the very thingthat was making me so angry as a
young man, now going, Okay,well, what would I have wanted
back then I would have wanted,but Promise Keepers is putting
out now real stuff, like guyswho are fallen, but are still

(46:15):
living for

Christ. That's so good. You know, Ken, I
appreciate you telling yourstory. And just how God has led
you to where you are right now.
And, you know, the whole purposeof this podcast is, you know,
these conversations, you know,our life is, is a journey with
Christ, whether we realize it ornot, you know, just like the
disciples that were walking onthe road to Emmaus, you know,
here comes Jesus, but they hadno clue that it's him. And he's

(46:38):
walking with them for hours. Andthey don't realize that it's him
until they sit down at thetable, Jesus blesses the food
and breaks the bread, their eyesare opened, and then poof, he's
gone. And in Luke 2432, theysay, weren't our hearts burning
within us along the way as hewas revealing the Scriptures to
us? You know, I want to learnfrom those moments in other

(46:58):
people's lives, where you lookback, and you see that Jesus
really was there, but I didn'tsee it in that moment. So that
we don't miss those moments now.
So can you tell me about a timewhere you can look back now and
you can see Jesus, where youmight have not felt him? In that
moment?

Why is he that question coming from what from
the setup? Well, the PromiseKeepers thing was definitely, it
was a just a big chore that Itook on felt like, you know, I
was jealous for the name of myLord, I'm gonna take this thing
on and close it down and pay offall that debt, because I'm
jealous for the name of God, Ihad no idea. It was going to

(47:36):
turn out dominating my life insuch a way. You know, I would
just say to, as we talked aboutrealness and authenticity, you
know, I mean, that's what somuch of the Bible is, you know,
the Bible is God's story of whatworks. And we tried to put all
his holiness on it. Butbasically, he said, you know,
here's how you got here. Here'swhy you have all these screwed

(47:58):
up desires. Now, let me give youa bunch of stories about people
screwing up. And then let metell you how I came to die for
you. So you could live for me,and then here's some
instructions on how to live thatlife out to the fullest. That's
it. That's That's what Scriptureis. Then we've seen the Old
Testament over and over and overagain, is these deeply flawed
people. you'd asked me storiesearlier about thinking things

(48:20):
through, think about Moses for aminute, because one of my
messages to people time is God'sfavorite. We have voices in our
head all the time that arecompeting for space, right? We
have our own voice, right? Wehave the devil's voice. And
we're really good to hear thedevil's voice because we were
born with the ability to hearhis voice because we were born
as slaves to the devil foryears. And when we got saved,

(48:43):
now we are able to hear the HolySpirit's voice but the Holy
Spirit's voice is harder to hearthe Holy Spirit's voice his
favorite word is Wait, wait,wait, wait. And he always
glorifies Jesus. Nothing else.
The devil his favorite word ishurry. You gotta go you gotta
go. You gotta go. He loves tofill us with anxiousness and
worry. And he always glorifyself. Right? You can often tell

(49:06):
it well, whose voice Am Ihearing? And boy, I feel strong
motivation, while just does thatmotivation bringing you peace,
patience, and is it bringingglory to Christ? Or is it
bringing you anxious? You gottareally go, go go. And somehow
you're getting the glory. I nodifferent. Yeah. So you have
Moses. Moses is like, really?
You think about it one of themost amazing people in history

(49:28):
of the world biblical or not?
This dude took 2 million peopleout into the desert with no
food, no water, no plan. There'sa guy with a serious, serious
spine, right? Yeah. How did youget there? You know, Moses is
raised in luxury as a son of theking, right Pharaoh. He would
have had the best training inthe world best hand to hand
combat bait training all thoseguys in those days. Were all

(49:50):
trained to be fighters from thetime they were born because they
had to be Moses would have beenthe best education possible
everything that goes with it.
And he feels like is called thathe's supposed to do something
great around his people, theIsraelites. And finally he gets
tired of waiting on God. So hegoes out and beats Amanda death,
which is always a great way tostart your new ministry, right?

(50:12):
He goes out and he beats thisEgyptian to death. And what does
he do the next day he goes out,he's expecting the Israelites to
rise up and grab him and say,Oh, our leader, he's going to
lead a rebellion. Instead, theycondemn him. And he's
humiliated. So he runs off andhides in the desert, it gets out
to the desert. And there's thesegirls that are they're getting
water and a bunch of LandPirates come up, who have really

(50:34):
been attentive to these girls.
And Moses shows up and kicks thebutts of all of them. He's a
tough dude, he is ready to go,man, he saves these girls. And
they run off until their fatherdropped Jethro about what just
happened. And he's like, well goget this guy because we live out
in the middle of the desert. Andhe sounds like good husband
material for one of mydaughters, which is Sharon. Sure
enough, he is. So Moses now goesfrom this incredible position

(50:55):
and feeling like he has thisamazing call on his life to
being a fricking sheep herder,which is the lowest of the low
back in those days. For 40years, he tends his father in
law, sheep, he imagined any morehumiliating than now you're
tending sheep, not even your ownsheep, your father unless she
like even everything you havecomes from your father in law.

(51:19):
Imagine his son, you know, sonwould have been 3536 years old.
And Moses going, you know, yourdad back in the day was quite
the guy for Pharaoh. And itsounds like dead, you've always
just smelled like sheep for eversince I've known you, I think
maybe you're full of crap.
Right? So finally, God callsMoses when he's 80 years old,

(51:40):
and an ad. For two chapters, Godgoes on about all the amazing
things he's going to do throughMoses. This is exactly what the
40 year old Moses wanted sobadly, was to be the man to lead
his people to lead a rebellion.
Now, when Moses hears all ofthis, what's he say to God? Pick
somebody else. Yeah. Now Mosesis where God can use them for 40

(52:05):
years of humiliation, and goingaround the desert, until God had
honed him down to the humilitylevel where God could truly use
him. So we tend to worshippeople in our American culture.
And we look at people who'vemade it big and Oh, Pastor, so
and so did compare yourself toChrist and Him only. And I'm

(52:28):
deeply suspect to theseChristian leaders who have not
gone through times like Moseswho have not gone through severe
times of waiting. God just, heloves to perfect people in the
fire. So anyway, I guess one ofthe messages I felt like the
Lord wanted me to get out towhoever's listening to this now
is, it's so very important towait on the Lord, He is putting

(52:49):
out a plan. And in that plan, hehas many, many moving parts. And
you are simply one of thoseparts. And in my case, I wasn't
ready yet. Either God had towork on my level humility,
because he knew I was gonna begetting hate mail someday, and I
need to be prepared for it. Myego in 2012 would not have been
able to handle the letters I seeit 2022 Or, you know, I'm

(53:09):
saying, I gotta give one lastanalogy on that. When I was a
policeman, we used to have thesepolice helicopters everywhere.
And you know, we were always infoot pursuits. I mean, all day
long. You've chased thesegangsters to these
neighborhoods, and they're goingover different walls, and you're
trying to chase them. It's allyou know, gunpoint and all this
kind of stuff, and a helicoptercome up, and you call it an air
unit, and come down and the airunit would give instructions,

(53:31):
you know, officer, you know,take 10 steps forward and turn
right climb over that fancy,because the air, you could see
every piece that was going onfrom the sky. Yeah. But you as a
policeman on the ground couldonly see your own perspective.
And from your own perspective,what the telega and helicopters
told me to do sometimes seemsreally dumb, because he's
telling you to turn to theright, you're like, Well, it'd

(53:54):
be a lot easier for me to go tothe left, like, Why do I want to
go to the right, because he'strying to move everybody to a
perimeter to catch the bad guy.
And a lot of times, cops justwouldn't do it the area and told
him because they were sure thathe was wrong in the pack that
would then be able to slip outbecause it didn't come together.
No, one day, I went up in thearea, and I actually got to see
their perspective. Now that Isee all the pieces in play, boy,

(54:19):
does that make things a lotclearer. Well, that's what it's
like in our life. We only seeyou, John B. We see our own
perspective. We don't knoweverybody else's perspective. We
don't know a God is movingaround and making happen. And so
it's very important that we playour part and one of the most
important things we can do inour part is to wait on the Lord.

(54:39):
waiting on the Lord means beingon our knees in prayer. It means
being in Scripture meanscontemplating scripture deeply
so that when our time to come,comes, we're ready. But don't
run ahead of the Lord. We have asaying here Promise Keepers
don't see your shadow. Meaningdon't run ahead of gospel

(54:59):
Wherever you start to see ashadow, because you're in front
of the Lord,

that's so good.
That is so good can I can listento you telling stories all day
long. You're just such anengaging storyteller, whether
it's the Bible being retold, oryour own personal stories, my
kind of another question that Ihave to ask in this podcast is
knowing what you know now, whatadvice would you give a younger
version of yourself? And what'shappening in your life that you

(55:25):
would want to receive that?

Yeah, I think this is probably what a lot of people
who have lived a lot of life andgain wisdom would tell their
younger selves, which is learnto empathize with people, learn
to put yourself in their shoesand walk around for a while.
Because the only perspective weknow is our own. You don't know
what someone else has gonethrough what their struggles
are. And so for me, to condemnsomebody for having sinful

(55:51):
desires around this area, orthat area, and be self righteous
about it. When I don't havethose desires. It doesn't mean
that we ever back off fromtelling people about sin and try
to correct them. But I wouldjust say, just being being
empathizing, we really and I'velearned as life as I've gone, as
I'm 55 years old. Now, I oftensay, alright, what's coming out

(56:16):
of my mouth at this moment? If Iwas my son, how would I be
hearing that? If I was my wife?
How would I process that or evenmore? So if my wife was saying
to me what I'm saying to herright now? How would I receive
that? It has a remarkable way oftempering what you do and say
and think when you put yourselfin the other person's shoes and

(56:36):
walk around him for a while. SoI think that's the thing, I
think that can really keeppeople from being effective for
Christ and in theirrelationships. And it can if
there's one thing that couldhelp anybody, be so much more
effective at making peace, andhaving unity in the
relationships and save forChrist. It's what would it be
like if I was them? Beforeopened my mouth?

Yeah. Wow.
That's so good. Ken. Thank youfor that. I do want to talk just
briefly about your book, adaring faith and a cowardly
world, could you just brieflykind of give a summary because I
don't want to miss anopportunity to promote this
work? Because it's the thingsthat we've talked about before
in our previous conversationwere so impactful, especially
about how living a life withoutwaste, regret, or anything

(57:21):
unfinished. I mean, there's,that's, that's a big challenge.

Yeah, I start the book off with just a very brief
story about being hit by ajetski. And being on a gurney in
the emergency room, and thedoctor tells me that I've
ruptured my liver and if lessthan 40% is ruptured, they'll
lifeflight me to a trauma centerand cut it out and grow back.
And if more than 40% isruptured, then I'm going to die
in five hours. At that time, ittook them an hour to figure out

(57:46):
what was what. So for an hourlaid on the gurney thinking I
may have only five hours tolive. And I remember at that
point, thinking, Okay, that was30 years old at the time, I may
be seeing Jesus in a few hours.
And when I do, what am I gonnatell him I did with my life with
what he gave me. And I thought,well, not much. I mean, I was a
really nice guy was really niceChristian Agila nice Christian
things. But really, who savedbecause of me, who was close

(58:10):
because of me? And I thought myanswer is gonna be really
inadequate. And I thought, atthat moment, I never want to end
up in that situation again. So Iasked myself the question all
the time, why? If Jesus did itall on the cross, which he did,
then why should I give awayeverything? Why does Jesus make
all these tough commands and theSermon on the Mount Matthew five
through seven, he's, you know,blessed are those who mourn

(58:32):
blessing of those hunger andthirst for righteousness? Bless
it, are you when peoplepersecute and say all kinds of
evil things about you rejoicegreat as a reward in heaven?
What does that mean? Becauseit's all about salvation. And so
deeply critical thinking andgoing through all this,
realizing that, yeah, we'resaved by grace. But we were
saved for the purpose of goodworship Ephesians 210. And will

(58:54):
be judged based on what we dowith those works. And that was
the person laying on the gurney,realizing that what I do with my
life after my salvation mattersgreatly, that we will be judged
for our good works, not forsalvation, because that's only
from Christ. But there'll becrowns and relationship with
Christ, and all kinds ofunbelievable promises that God

(59:14):
gives us. If we give up all forhim, there's a really good
reason to be a strong Christianwho gives all for Jesus Christ.
And so that's what I go into thebook is, what are the specific
promises? Why should I be a goodChristian? Why should I give to
the poor wireless things?
Because nobody ever seems toanswer those questions.

Yeah. And from what I've been able to read, and
what we've talked about before,I definitely want to recommend
it to everybody. That's, that'slistening. And I'll be putting a
link in the Episode notes sothat you can get your own copy
of it as well. And I'm going tomake that easy for people that
are interested in that. So itcan I just want to thank you so
much for just sharing about yourlife and the journey that God

(59:56):
has brought you on. And justwhat you're doing now. And thank
you for as God told you to waitfor those that for those few
years, and then he finallyrevealed what that was for. That
really encourages me. Because,you know, that's one of the
hardest things for me is thatwaiting process because I want

(01:00:16):
things to happen now. And soyour story is really encouraged
me, and I know it's going toencourage people that are
listening right now. So, Ken,just thank you so much for
allowing me to join you alongyour way. This John, appreciate
it man.

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