July 4, 2022 • 38 mins
C.S. Lewis might be known as a great author and theologian but he was also “The Most Reluctant Convert.” Max McLean and Norman Stone have joined forces to take C.S. Lewis’ life story on the screen. The two overcame many challenges making this film during the Covid Lockdown. The film is available now to watch on streaming platforms. I highly recommend it.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Matarazzo (00:05):
Welcome to along the way. I'm John Matarazzo.
Your host and fellow traveler,thank you for joining me along
my way is I try to become morelike Jesus every day. The goal
of along the way is to identifythe moments in life that Jesus
really is walking with us andtrying to get our attention. But
just like the disciples alongthe way to a madness, we are
missing those moments that ourhearts are burning within us. I
(00:28):
want us to identify thesemoments, learn from others and
apply those lessons to our livesso that we don't miss the
blessings God has for us alongthe way in our life's journey.
Since I started working atcharisma media, I've had the
opportunity to do podcastinterviews that I wouldn't
normally consider an along theway episode, because I was doing
(00:48):
the interview for charisma newsor some other format. And I've
also been interviewed on otherpeople's podcasts to those have
been great opportunities as wellas interesting conversations.
And I want to make sure that Ishare them with you as well. I
love CS Lewis's books, TheChronicles of Narnia, Screwtape
Letters and the out of thesilent Planet series. But the
(01:10):
man was way more than just agreat author. He was what he
called the most reluctantconvert. Now, Max McLean and
Norman stone have joined forcesto take CS Lewis his life story
to the big screen. The film isan adaptation of Max McLean's
one man stage play. The twoovercame many challenges making
this film during the COVIDlockdown, I had the opportunity
(01:34):
to see this film on the bigscreen. And it is available now
to watch on streaming platforms,which I highly recommend. I'll
get to our conversation in justa moment. But I want to thank
you for listening to along theway. All of my episodes and
social links are available at mywebsite. Along the way, dot
media. You can also join myemail list to get updates right
(01:55):
in your inbox. All the linksfrom this episode will be in the
show notes. And now here's myconversation with Norman stone,
followed by Max McLean, aboutthe making of the most reluctant
convert, enjoy. Well, I'm veryexcited to have Norman stone
with me here on the charismanews podcast. He's actually this
(02:19):
is really cool. He's in justoutside of Glasgow, Scotland.
And we're going to be talkingabout this film that he is the
screenwriter for the directorproducer wears a lot of hats on
this. And I actually had theopportunity to see this on the
big screen. And it is the film,the most reluctant convert the
(02:40):
untold story of CS Lewis and CSLewis is for me, he's a general
in the faith, especially in thearea of apologetics. And I am
just honored to be able to talkto the man that has taken this
amazing story and put it to thesilver screen and helps convert
it to the silver screen. SoNorman, welcome to the charisma
news podcast.
Norman Stone (03:00):
I feel very welcome already. Thank you.
John Matarazzo (03:02):
Oh, very good.
Very good. So let's let's juststart off with this film. I had
the pleasure of seeing it on thebig screen. I really kind of
stumbled upon it. I didn'trealize that it was it was out
and it was available. And then Ialso found out that my family
back in Pittsburgh, they theywatched it too and just rave
reviews from all of us. I lovedseeing his I love seeing CS
(03:25):
Lewis his life portrayed in away that you know, you read The
Chronicles of Narnia, you hearlittle things, but the way that
it's it's really told throughMax McLean, his acting and then
as the elder CES. Just could youjust tell me about how you got
(03:48):
involved with this project andhow it came together.
Norman Stone (03:53):
Sure. I'm bit known in the industry for doing
CS Lewis stuff. I invented theoriginal Shadowlands as before
the feature film and before thetheater piece, and that was
straight primer all the waythrough and did very well it
went all over the world on that.
And I didn't another couple ofthings. I did another couple of
things as well. But my friendand colleague is max McLean as
(04:18):
actor Christian guy has atheater group called FPA in New
York. I've known him for years.
And he's very good on Lewis.
He's researched him well he doesvarious shows. It can be CS
Lewis on stage. It can do thingslike the great divorce and stuff
on stage. He's got anunderstanding of Lewis like very
few people I've ever had. Heasked me Would this latest This
(04:42):
is three years ago now. Thelatest one man show of Lucy did
he put on stage? Would I be ableto put it on film screen I said
it's up to the script manthrough the you know, who knows?
It's Have a look at it wasbrilliant script. It was
basically surprised by Joy greatbook. And he done it for stage
(05:05):
so craftily so well done soseamlessly Lewis's words. Then
he asked me to do it becauseobviously that wasn't a that was
afraid to please not film. Sure.
He asked me to do thescreenplay. So we did in
remarkable short time. And itbegan to really come together.
(05:27):
And I was able to use certaintechniques and styles and keep
the entertainment high, as wellas the content high. It is not a
boring film. But it is animportant film. I think. And I'm
not saying that other peoplehave said that for it. And it's
taken off, just taken off. Yeah,Louis still has a way of
communicating matters of thefaith in a way that I don't know
(05:49):
anyone else who has ever donethat. And he said, I'm not an
evangelist, but I am a truthfulfollower of Christ. And then
bingo, there you have it, itworked. And he adapts very well
to the screen as it turns out,so there we are.
John Matarazzo (06:02):
Very cool. So you mentioned that you, you did
the original Shadowlands. Howdid that come about? Like I want
to hear about your desire totell CS Lewis his story. Because
it's one thing to just have ahero figure in history that you
know a lot about, but it'sanother thing to actually take
their work and show that on onthe big screen and show that in
(06:25):
different in different media. Imean, that it takes passion and
commitment. It
Norman Stone (06:29):
is yes, the original Shadowlands was for
television. That was in 1984. Ijust don't know back in 1980 81,
I've done a film about aChristian blind, Cornish poet. I
know how to find. And basicallyhe was very, very, very good in
(06:52):
the poetry world. And he wasnearing the end of his life. And
when I spoke to me hadn't heardor seen for 25 years. Can you
imagine that? Wow, he you gotbetter than anyone I've ever
met. There was no middleman withJeff Clemmer, that was his name.
Anyway, I did the film, it gotan award and was well received.
(07:13):
And I began to realize it wasbecause he had earned the right
to be heard. You know, we oftenpreach and push things around as
if everyone owes us a listening.
They don't. But if you've beenthrough the middle and back, you
tend to listen to people more.
And Jack Clemmer had done that.
And it was a fantastic story ofhow he became a Christian and
stuff. And the BBC did it. Andthe response was, Oh, my
(07:35):
goodness, when he just listenedto that guy, because he earned
the right to be heard. So whenthere was a success, I took
about two and a half seconds tothink, who else would know who's
the right to be heard? CS Lewis.
Now, I had not been brought upon 90 and stuff as a kid. But I
looked into Louis and alreadyobviously knew him, but I
(07:55):
thought it was a Christian, butthe when you look into it, it's
an amazing life, that he had anamazing understanding, a real
gift, expressing that. So thatcame that became the first
Shadowlands, his relationshipwith joy Davidman, mainly that
centered on and because of that,that was my next big film work.
I did another couple of films atthe same time, but that one,
(08:18):
Shadowlands really went offaround the world. Lewis talks to
people without effort, it wouldseem, he tells the truth, right,
without effort, he actually hasbeen there and back again, but
you listen to him because he's,he's still got the scars,
Somebody wanna said to me, andthat's right. So he's worth
listening to
John Matarazzo (08:39):
Absolutely.
There's almost a limitlesssource of information about his
writings, and there's booksabout his writings even because
he's just been thatinspirational. Yeah. So first
off, thank you so much fortaking that interest, and just
really the call of God and, and,you know, God put his finger on
something, and you responded toit, and then really opened up a
(09:00):
big door where more people areinterested in CS Lewis, because
of things like Shadow Lands andshoe you know, I'm thinking, you
know, that you said about theBBC film, but I grew up watching
the BBC, dramas of The Lion, theWitch and the Wardrobe and
Prince Caspian. And you knowthose things. And so I'm sure
(09:23):
that because of the success ofwhat you did, that kind of
translated to them wanting to beable to dramatize and put those
put those great stories on thescreen as well. So I don't think
I don't think my childhood would
Norman Stone (09:39):
it be? Well, maybe my childhood would have
John Matarazzo (09:43):
been as colorful if it hadn't been for the steps
that you take. And so thank you,as I'm realizing this right now,
I think you had, I think you hada great party.
Norman Stone (09:50):
But well, back then, when I did Shetlands, the,
somebody a journalist asked me aquestion. He said, What are you
hoping to achieve with thisfilm? And I had to think on my
feet and I said, Well, you I'dlike to swing open the library
doors. And you make a very goodpoint there because I think, I
mean, Louis has sold over aquarter of a billion books. Yes,
that was a big difference.
billion books. I don't know ifanyone else has done that. So
(10:12):
you have this man who had booksare all out there winking Go, go
figure, I can alert people'shearts or minds or brains or
hungers. I can just say thatreading is there. So we have an
incredible resource of loosestruth and a way of expressing
things very, very well. But wealso have a way of opening that
(10:35):
door with a key like a filmora,or a stage play.
John Matarazzo (10:40):
Yeah. And speaking of stage play, I mean,
you and Max work together onthis. And Max played the part of
the elder CES. And I just lovehow this film, it really felt
like a one man play that justkind of grew into and it's
almost like you came come intothe imagination and the memories
(11:01):
of it. It was done in a way thatI've never seen anything quite
like that. Maybe it broke thefourth wall, but seamlessly.
Yeah, I
Norman Stone (11:10):
make a point.
John Matarazzo (11:11):
Can I just hear about that? Oh, yeah, I have
Norman Stone (11:13):
to confess this is why I'm over running. It used to
say, I stole it from Dickens.
Okay. Because when you
John Matarazzo (11:20):
can steal from Dickens anytime. That's fun.
Norman Stone (11:23):
When A Christmas Carol, which you have seen or
read, or both, when the oldunrepentant sinner Scrooge is
woken up by the ghosts ofChristmas past, he is taken
physically back to his childhoodthere is as a young lad at
school, left behind, nobodywants him before his sister
turns up and he gets taken away.
And he looks at himself. And Ialways thought, from an early
(11:46):
age, I thought that is reallypowerful. Because he is there
present looking at himselfbefore he was ruined by his own
terrible miserliness and so on.
So if you can actually take anaudience with you into a
person's past, and if you canget the older Louis commenting
(12:09):
like a guide about what's goingon, and before you know it, he's
in the scene with them. And he'sgoing through his life. It's
doubly powerful. It works. So Iexperimented with it, and I
loved it. It was good fun. Andit worked.
John Matarazzo (12:27):
I loved it, too.
And when you say that, itdefinitely does have that feel.
Without the The Haunting aspectof it that the Christmas Carol
does, yeah, you use that sametechnique, but in a different
way. And you get a differentfeeling. But you get a very
powerful result. And I love thatthe elder CES is definitely a
guide in this the guide Narratortype of person. Yeah, it's, it's
(12:50):
done very well. And I appreciateit. And of
Norman Stone (12:55):
course, we didn't make up his words. The true.
Yeah, it's using Louis's words,more or less all the time
anyway. So it's not like we'reputting words into his mouth
that he wouldn't say, you know,he authored most of those words,
himself. So you do get really tothe bone straightaway bang.
John Matarazzo (13:11):
Now, I noticed that in the film, there was
something at the beginning, youguys kind of had to had to
explain that this was filmedunder very interesting times. I
mean, we had a pandemic goingon, where it was very strict
lockdowns. But none of thecharacters were wearing masks in
the film. But you guys had todeal with some things and unique
(13:33):
ways. Can you can you talk aboutthe making of the film during
that time period, especiallybecause you're on location? This
isn't on a soundstage somewhere?
Norman Stone (13:40):
Yes. Well, no, it isn't. And that was a problem.
No one else was filming. At thattime. We seem to be the only
crew that doing it. And we hadto pay huge amounts per test. We
had to do all the due diligenceand pay a lot of money just to
make sure we kept safe. Butthere's something more than
that. Yes, we were filmingduring that time. But as I look
(14:01):
to Lewis's power of speech andwords, historically, he went up
to London, to appear on the BBCat their request to explain the
Christian faith to people whowere being bombed to bits by
Hitler in the Blitz, okay. So hewent up into the bombs talk
about that, and apparently, manypublic house public landlords
(14:27):
will be shouting, quiet,everybody. Mr. Lewis is on the
radio, and they'll be quiet andthey sit there be listening to
Lewis explain the Christianfaith. I find that fantastic.
Now, the relevance here is neversince the Blitz has Britain and
probably as though Britain,Britain has come to terms with
it had to come to terms of hisown mortality, because Mrs.
(14:52):
McCafferty down the road in 1942may have been blown up by
Hitler's bombs, but now he'sdied if the same equivalent of a
night near neighbor being dyingfrom COVID. When COVID came
sweeping across our societies,you couldn't pretend you're just
a happy consumer with two and ahalf kids and a nice extra car,
or whatever you were told we hadto do. And that was the meaning
(15:15):
of life it isn't. And peoplefaced mortality, their own
mortality, never as much assince the Blitz in London. And
Lewis spoke to that in Londonduring the Blitz he spoke to us
now speaks to us now. And wehave a reason to know that life
is not endless. And Alicia.
John Matarazzo (15:38):
Yeah, definitely. I want to hear you
talk about the fact that youwere able to go on, on location
for a lot of these places thatLewis actually was, and I don't
want to give away the ending ofit. But I mean, the reveal at
the end just kind of gave mechills of where where he
actually was, but could you talkabout the importance of going to
(16:01):
these actual locations that youcould?
Norman Stone (16:02):
Yes, there is something about being in the
actual same place. Not always,but we lose his life. Yes. The
house where he lived, thekitchens, and everything
happened. We filmed there inthat house. We went to his rooms
in more than courage, Oxford,that close does and all that
(16:24):
place is fantastic. There's aplace called Addison's walkway
really prepared Lewis to acceptthe faith. And we went on that
the same place. Wonderful placein Oxford. So it wasn't a case
of could we build it? Yeah. Whybuild it when it's there? And we
need it. It's a lot cheaper notto build. But you do have
(16:44):
something of an atmospheric. Youdo have something. When he talks
about this? Well, there it is.
And it went extraordinary. Well,we had to shoot it very quickly.
But fortunately, that doesn'tshow and the crew will who are a
very top professional featurefilm crew that Kenneth Branagh
uses, who did Belfast and allthese things. And they all
(17:07):
didn't just come on work. Andthey talk about Lewis through
their lunchtime, they werecompletely taken by the story.
One or two had been great Nonyafans, and this top professional
crew threw themselves at thisand owned it. So they actually
appear in the film themselves attimes, especially at the
beginning. So after that, it wasfairly easy. I mustn't take
(17:29):
credit for all this stuff. Theteam was what makes the whole
thing work, but it is unusual.
And I hope it's an unusual filmthat does both sides of the
Christian divide have hadletters and emails from people
who aren't Christians. And I'vehad loads from those are, but it
should go across the board. Ifthere's a way of telling a
story. Tell it and we'veexperimented a bit with them. It
(17:51):
was great fun.
John Matarazzo (17:52):
What is your favorite work of Lewis's to mean
in books and books? Yeah,
Norman Stone (17:56):
this is gonna sound odd. Probably A Grief
Observed. Now I love the MereChristianity. Yes, good. And of
course, surprised by joy.
Fantastic, which is what weenjoyed ourselves within this
film. But when Joy Davidmandied, his wife died after
getting better being healed. Andjust when they thought they were
(18:18):
free of the castle of the giantdespair, as he put it, she was
snatched back and died horribly,actually. And he was not for
six. But he wrote a book calledA Grief Observed and there are
no Hallelujah Chorus is at theend. But as always, he was
relentlessly honest. And if I amhonest with you, I know people
(18:40):
that have burst into tearsChristian and non Christian by
reading that book. He's just sostraightforward doing it, but he
writes it as a Christian, stillgoing through the mail still
being backed up and so on.
Before I did the originalShadowlands, I met a very
interesting lady who's lived ina Miss Marple coffee just
outside of just outside ofOxford, and she'd known Lewis
(19:04):
well, and she knew don't goDavid and, and well. And I said
to her, tell me this amazingbook called A Grief Observed or
I knew that yes, I know that.
And I said, well, it doesn't sayanywhere that he got back his
faith at anytime that book endswith the honest bleakness of
death, but with something elseafter that, but did he ever get
his faith fully back? I need toknow that from someone who knew
(19:27):
him? And she said, Oh, yes, inthe end, you know, he was
stronger than ever. And then Sheleant forward. I can see her
now. And she said, but do youknow, you could always see the
scars? And I said, That's it gotthe film. Wow, is it and that
book does that in the end withthat feeling. So here on the
(19:49):
right to be heard, after all,that's all I'd say. I think
we're now out of time. I lovethat got somebody else coming
on. Ma'am, oh, sure, sure. Well,
John Matarazzo (20:01):
I just want to thank anyone else that so they
will Thank you, Norman for yourtime. I appreciate it. The and
I'll provide all the all theinformation so that people can
watch this film. And they cancheck it out at CS Lewis
movie.com. Thank you for doingand, yes. Thank you so much,
Norman. I appreciate it.
Norman Stone (20:21):
Thank you, John.
It's been a real pleasure. Thankyou. And coming up
John Matarazzo (20:25):
in a moment, actor Max McLean opens up about
his portrayal of the manhimself, CS Lewis, right after
this short message.
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when you use the promo codecharisma. Once again, go to my
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800-598-1793 for this amazingoffer. Well, I am here with Max
McClain of the fellowship forperforming arts a phenomenal
group that he started. Andthey've done many plays a lot of
(21:59):
them based around CS Lewis, hisworks. But right now we're going
to talk about one that hecreated as a one man show called
The most reluctant convert,which has now turned into a
phenomenal film, which I had theopportunity to see on the big
screen. So I'm really excited totalk with Max McLean. Thanks so
much for being on the charismanews podcast, Max.
Max McLean (22:21):
Thank you, John.
John Matarazzo (22:23):
So how long have you been doing CS Lewis plays?
And how did you come up with thescripts for the most reluctant
convert?
Max McLean (22:32):
Yeah. I've been working with Lewis for about 15
plus years, maybe 17 years.
Screwtape Letters was our firstand the great divorce. It was
because of Screwtape. And thegreat divorce in the fact that
both deal with aspects of hisconversion. And his resistance
(22:52):
to conversion. In the case of ofScrewtape, it was how the
spiritual warfare would keep himaway from Christ. Yeah. And in
the great divorce, it was how heresisted the Holy Spirit, both
(23:12):
ways. And so they're verypersonal, both those books. So
it made me go back to hismemoir, surprised by joy, which
is the, what he calls the shapeof his early life. And, and that
book ends with his conversion ofChrist. Yeah.
John Matarazzo (23:33):
So how did you take this and decide that you
wanted to do a one man play? Imean, because that's, that's a,
that's a huge undertaking. Andthat's a lot of lines to
memorize. And I'm not an actor.
So I look at, I look at somebodylike you that can memorize all
this. I mean, because there's alot of quotes. It's not just,
it's not just scripting, it'sreal things that he actually
(23:54):
said. So you have to remember ita certain way. How difficult was
that for you? Well, that was
Max McLean (24:01):
the that was the objective to do that very thing
to to attempt to create thecharacter of CS Lewis, from his
own words, so that an audiencemember would would have an
opportunity to, to really hearfrom him to know what it was
(24:21):
like to be in the room with himto think his thoughts after him.
So my work was to do the heavylifting of all that memory work,
all that putting together thescript, so that the audience
could get an experience of CSLewis. And that's what we
attempted to do with this film.
John Matarazzo (24:38):
Very cool.
Before we start talking aboutthe film, I want to talk about
your personal connection with CSLewis. What was your first book
that you read of his or what wasyour How did you first come to
know him? Yeah,
Max McLean (24:49):
yeah, it was early in my Christian walk. I was an
adult convert in my 20s. Thebook the first book that really
captured my attention was TheScrewtape Letters. And the very
first scene of The ScrewtapeLetters you might remember it's
about Screwtape is recountinghis successes. And he mentions a
man reading in the BritishMuseum. Do you remember that
(25:12):
scene. And he obviously isreading something that's really
captured his imagination. AndScrewtape says he sees 20 years
work beginning to fall apart.
And he whispers in his ear,isn't it just about time for
lunch. And he distracts him fromwhat he was doing. And when he
(25:34):
ends that he says, you know, hegot the man back on track for
him to bring him to our fatherbelow safely. He's safely with
our father below. And he says,the end of that. It's funny how
these humans picture us asputting things into their minds.
Our best work is done by keepingthings out. And I said, Okay,
(25:56):
this man is someone to bereckoned with. Yeah,
John Matarazzo (26:03):
definitely. I'm glad that that passage really
put a hook in you, because thathas led you to do a lot of his
works on the stage.
Max McLean (26:12):
Well, you know, if you're faithful to Christ here,
you're going to try to figureout a way to integrate your
faith with your work. And, andthat's what what I was trying to
do with with Lewis Lewis, helpsme to understand my faith better
(26:34):
is through presenting, Louis,that I feel that I am
communicating Christ moreclearly, more vividly, more
provocatively, more profoundly.
John Matarazzo (26:46):
Yeah. And I definitely agree with that.
Because every time I hear Lewis,his work, it it causes me to
think and to really process whoGod is even more. Yeah, exactly.
So Max, I want to talk aboutthis film, the most reluctant
convert, how did it go frombeing a play script to being a
(27:10):
screenplay to being up on the onthe silver screen? Yeah,
Max McLean (27:13):
yeah. Well, you know, a play script is pretty
simple. In the sense of, youhave, you have one set, you have
costume, you have lighting, youhave a set. In our case, we had
projection designs, we had areally good soundscape. And it's
one person on stage. When Iasked Norman to make it a film,
(27:40):
it went from one person on stageon one set to 18 different
locations in and around Oxford,15 actors 190 extras 270
costumes, it became quite anevent. And of course, that's
what film does, it opens it upin terms of making a film, as
opposed to making a play, youknow, play, you rehearse for a
(28:02):
month or so. And you do it insequence from beginning to end.
Right and film this hardly anyrehearsal in the same way, you
know, you you break it up intotiny little pieces. And you try
to figure out the continuitybetween piece by piece because
they're not done in order. Andthen you leave it up to at least
in my case, I left it up to thedirector and, and the editors to
(28:25):
piece all those things together.
Yeah. And that's what happenedwith our movie.
John Matarazzo (28:31):
That's really cool. You guys filmed this,
during the pandemic, the heightof the pandemic. And so you were
really some of the only peoplethat were doing this type of
work. Yeah.
Max McLean (28:41):
Norman said that he he gave us notice that
filmmaking was going to be readyto go at a particular time in
England. And I said, Okay, let'slet's be prepared when it opens.
And he was able to get a crewand a cast. That was first rate.
(29:01):
Nobody had worked since March.
We started in August, finishedin October. And as soon as we
finished, they shut down thecountry again. Oh, wow. So it
was a real small window, about asix week window, where
filmmaking could actually bemade, and very few films were
made. But ours was and you know,we we greenlit the film in the
(29:22):
summer of 20. We shot in thefall of 20. Did all post
production in the winter 21. Andthen we made plans to release
it, and it did release inNovember 2021.
John Matarazzo (29:37):
Yeah. And I really enjoyed the film and I
love that you got to play twoparts. Basically, you played
yourself and also yourself as CSLewis, kind of as a very, a way
to bring the audience into theplay into the movie that I
hadn't seen before. And itreally it shook me but that It
(30:00):
brought me right in. I reallythought that was a cool way to a
cool method to start the filmand then also end it.
Max McLean (30:09):
Well, that was that was Norman's vision from
beginning to end, because hisobjective was, he wanted to stay
as close to the stage play whilemaking a movie. And so he he had
this device of, of the actorpreparing. Yeah. And then
getting into it, talkingdirectly to the camera. And, you
(30:34):
know, it was I trusted normalthat it would work. But I'd
never done that before either.
John Matarazzo (30:40):
Yeah, and I believe that it definitely did
work. It worked for me and it,it shook me, then it pulled me
right in and it prepared me tothink this is something that
it's different. And it's veryunique. You know, Max, you guys
did these on location? Where notjust on any location on the
(31:01):
locations, the actual historicallocations, where CS studied
where he lived? Yes. What wasthat like for you of being
somebody that has beeninfluenced by CS Lewis so much?
What was it like to be in thesame places? Well, it
Max McLean (31:15):
was amazing. You know, being at modeline College,
we were spent three days inmodeling College, the library,
his rooms, not exactly his roomswere very approximate his rooms
because his rooms have becomesort of a chemistry lab, the
Addison's walk, we weren't ableto get into the eagle and child
the burden, baby, but we had apup very similar, the white
(31:38):
horse in not too far away. Butit still gave that that sense
of, of being in a small smokyEnglish pub. We were in the
kilns, you know, at differentlocations in around Oxford. I
think the film in many ways isis like an advertisement for
Oxford. It's just Oh, yeah, itreally makes people want to go
(32:01):
there.
John Matarazzo (32:02):
Definitely. I mean, I, I loved it. I mean, the
cinematography was was reallyimpressive. And it just kind of
it brought you into thoselocations. And I felt like I was
there, which is what you want todo in a movie? Yes. So the movie
came out in November, Decemberof 2021. Yeah. And what was the
(32:22):
response that you've seen?
Max McLean (32:23):
Well, we're way beyond what we thought. I mean,
it was on the day it opened, itwas a number two film in
America, it did better thanbond. And it was second only to
dune. And the primary reason forthat is we were in 450 screens,
and they were in 3000 screens.
But our per screen average wasway higher. So the movie
(32:44):
theaters really took notice. Andthey said, You know what, we
want to keep this movie. So itwas supposed to be one night
only, and it ran for a month.
And then more recently, it wasit's been as high as number four
on Apple TV for independentfilms, number 12. And for DVD
(33:07):
releases, and on Amazon. So it'sreally making an impact. And I'm
grateful it's found itsaudience.
John Matarazzo (33:17):
That's great.
That is really, really cool.
And, you know, since we'retalking about that, right now, I
just want to let people knowthat if you go to CS Lewis
movie.com, you can get all theinformation on how to get the
how to get the streaming versionof it or to buy it digitally.
However you want to get it, youcan get that information there.
So CS Lewis movie.com. Max, foryou. I mean, you've done many
(33:44):
things about CS Lewis, in yourlife. Is there another movie
about CS Lewis that's coming?
What else is going on with you?
Max McLean (33:52):
Yeah, the first thing is I I've created another
stage play the film, and that'sthe original stage by the most
reluctant convert ends at hisconversion of Christ. It wasn't
obvious in 1931, when heconverted that he would become
the most influential Christianwriter of the 20th century and
beyond. How did that take place?
What you know, happened in hischaracter that the Lord just
(34:16):
opened the floodgates, you know,gave him a national platform and
the BBC. How did listening toHitler's Reichstag speech in
1940, influenced his writing ofScrewtape? How did he become
such an effective evangelist,especially the skeptics, and his
(34:38):
maturity of thought, you know,what he thought about prayer,
how powerful prayer was in hislife? I'm very curious. It's
called further up further inbecause most of us go to Louis,
because we expect to be risen toexpect to come to a higher
place. has to have some kind ofconnection with the universe
(35:01):
next door to something outsideof ourselves. And so this play
helps us offer that to, to ouraudiences. I'm looking forward.
It was, we developed it, wespent about a year on it
developed it had a workshop inin Houston, previewed it in
Phoenix. And the response wasamazing. It was really an
(35:23):
overwhelming response, probablygreater than anything I've done.
And I'm just really we're gonnaroll it out nationally, this
fall.
John Matarazzo (35:36):
Okay, so this is a this is another one man play.
Right, right.
Max McLean (35:40):
In terms of films, Norman and I have made an
agreement to do two new filmstogether. We anticipate
beginning actually doing thebudgeting and the end the
treatment now writing thescripts over the next six, eight
months, and hopefully get intoproduction mid next year.
John Matarazzo (36:03):
Oh, cool. Well, I'm looking forward to all these
things that you just talkedabout, what is the website that
that people can follow?
Max McLean (36:10):
Yeah, it's the work that we do is, you'll be able to
follow at CS Lewis movie.com, CSLewis movie.com.
John Matarazzo (36:17):
And what about the, if somebody has the
opportunity to see you on thestage,
Max McLean (36:21):
oh, that you can go to CS Lewis on stage.com. CS
Lewis on stage.com. And that'll,that's pretty easy to remember
that the the further up furtherin play.
John Matarazzo (36:36):
That's wonderful. So CS, Lewis,
movie.com, and CS Lewis onstage.com. Get you all the
information that you need to seethese amazing works, whether it
be on this screen, or in person.
And Max, I just want to thankyou so much for taking some time
to talk about CS Lewis and howhe's impacted your life. And
now, because he's impacted yourlife so much. He's now impacting
(36:59):
so many other people throughthrough the work that you're
doing. And so thank you so muchfor using the arts for the
kingdom of God the way that youare. Thank you. You've been
listening to the charisma newspodcast. I'm John Matarazzo. God
bless you. Thank you forlistening to this episode of
along the way. If you've enjoyedjoining me along my way, please
share this with a friend who youthink will be encouraged by this
(37:21):
podcast. Also, please rate andreview along the way on iTunes
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(37:44):
If you want to help support mein this podcast, I have a
Patreon page. The link to becomea supporter is also in my show
notes. I hope that you'veenjoyed this part of my journey
and may you realize when Jesusis walking with you along your
way. Along the way is honored tobe part of the charisma Podcast
(38:04):
Network. You can find tons ofspirit filled content from our
vast catalogue of podcastincluding my Monday through
Friday news stories for thecharisma news podcast. Go to CPN
shows.com To see the full listand latest episodes
Welcome to along the way. I'm John Matarazzo.
Your host and fellow traveler,thank you for joining me along
my way is I try to become morelike Jesus every day. The goal
of along the way is to identifythe moments in life that Jesus
really is walking with us andtrying to get our attention. But
just like the disciples alongthe way to a madness, we are
missing those moments that ourhearts are burning within us. I
(00:28):
want us to identify thesemoments, learn from others and
apply those lessons to our livesso that we don't miss the
blessings God has for us alongthe way in our life's journey.
Since I started working atcharisma media, I've had the
opportunity to do podcastinterviews that I wouldn't
normally consider an along theway episode, because I was doing
(00:48):
the interview for charisma newsor some other format. And I've
also been interviewed on otherpeople's podcasts to those have
been great opportunities as wellas interesting conversations.
And I want to make sure that Ishare them with you as well. I
love CS Lewis's books, TheChronicles of Narnia, Screwtape
Letters and the out of thesilent Planet series. But the
(01:10):
man was way more than just agreat author. He was what he
called the most reluctantconvert. Now, Max McLean and
Norman stone have joined forcesto take CS Lewis his life story
to the big screen. The film isan adaptation of Max McLean's
one man stage play. The twoovercame many challenges making
this film during the COVIDlockdown, I had the opportunity
(01:34):
to see this film on the bigscreen. And it is available now
to watch on streaming platforms,which I highly recommend. I'll
get to our conversation in justa moment. But I want to thank
you for listening to along theway. All of my episodes and
social links are available at mywebsite. Along the way, dot
media. You can also join myemail list to get updates right
(01:55):
in your inbox. All the linksfrom this episode will be in the
show notes. And now here's myconversation with Norman stone,
followed by Max McLean, aboutthe making of the most reluctant
convert, enjoy. Well, I'm veryexcited to have Norman stone
with me here on the charismanews podcast. He's actually this
(02:19):
is really cool. He's in justoutside of Glasgow, Scotland.
And we're going to be talkingabout this film that he is the
screenwriter for the directorproducer wears a lot of hats on
this. And I actually had theopportunity to see this on the
big screen. And it is the film,the most reluctant convert the
(02:40):
untold story of CS Lewis and CSLewis is for me, he's a general
in the faith, especially in thearea of apologetics. And I am
just honored to be able to talkto the man that has taken this
amazing story and put it to thesilver screen and helps convert
it to the silver screen. SoNorman, welcome to the charisma
news podcast.
Norman Stone (03:00):
I feel very welcome already. Thank you.
John Matarazzo (03:02):
Oh, very good.
Very good. So let's let's juststart off with this film. I had
the pleasure of seeing it on thebig screen. I really kind of
stumbled upon it. I didn'trealize that it was it was out
and it was available. And then Ialso found out that my family
back in Pittsburgh, they theywatched it too and just rave
reviews from all of us. I lovedseeing his I love seeing CS
(03:25):
Lewis his life portrayed in away that you know, you read The
Chronicles of Narnia, you hearlittle things, but the way that
it's it's really told throughMax McLean, his acting and then
as the elder CES. Just could youjust tell me about how you got
(03:48):
involved with this project andhow it came together.
Norman Stone (03:53):
Sure. I'm bit known in the industry for doing
CS Lewis stuff. I invented theoriginal Shadowlands as before
the feature film and before thetheater piece, and that was
straight primer all the waythrough and did very well it
went all over the world on that.
And I didn't another couple ofthings. I did another couple of
things as well. But my friendand colleague is max McLean as
(04:18):
actor Christian guy has atheater group called FPA in New
York. I've known him for years.
And he's very good on Lewis.
He's researched him well he doesvarious shows. It can be CS
Lewis on stage. It can do thingslike the great divorce and stuff
on stage. He's got anunderstanding of Lewis like very
few people I've ever had. Heasked me Would this latest This
(04:42):
is three years ago now. Thelatest one man show of Lucy did
he put on stage? Would I be ableto put it on film screen I said
it's up to the script manthrough the you know, who knows?
It's Have a look at it wasbrilliant script. It was
basically surprised by Joy greatbook. And he done it for stage
(05:05):
so craftily so well done soseamlessly Lewis's words. Then
he asked me to do it becauseobviously that wasn't a that was
afraid to please not film. Sure.
He asked me to do thescreenplay. So we did in
remarkable short time. And itbegan to really come together.
(05:27):
And I was able to use certaintechniques and styles and keep
the entertainment high, as wellas the content high. It is not a
boring film. But it is animportant film. I think. And I'm
not saying that other peoplehave said that for it. And it's
taken off, just taken off. Yeah,Louis still has a way of
communicating matters of thefaith in a way that I don't know
(05:49):
anyone else who has ever donethat. And he said, I'm not an
evangelist, but I am a truthfulfollower of Christ. And then
bingo, there you have it, itworked. And he adapts very well
to the screen as it turns out,so there we are.
John Matarazzo (06:02):
Very cool. So you mentioned that you, you did
the original Shadowlands. Howdid that come about? Like I want
to hear about your desire totell CS Lewis his story. Because
it's one thing to just have ahero figure in history that you
know a lot about, but it'sanother thing to actually take
their work and show that on onthe big screen and show that in
(06:25):
different in different media. Imean, that it takes passion and
commitment. It
Norman Stone (06:29):
is yes, the original Shadowlands was for
television. That was in 1984. Ijust don't know back in 1980 81,
I've done a film about aChristian blind, Cornish poet. I
know how to find. And basicallyhe was very, very, very good in
(06:52):
the poetry world. And he wasnearing the end of his life. And
when I spoke to me hadn't heardor seen for 25 years. Can you
imagine that? Wow, he you gotbetter than anyone I've ever
met. There was no middleman withJeff Clemmer, that was his name.
Anyway, I did the film, it gotan award and was well received.
(07:13):
And I began to realize it wasbecause he had earned the right
to be heard. You know, we oftenpreach and push things around as
if everyone owes us a listening.
They don't. But if you've beenthrough the middle and back, you
tend to listen to people more.
And Jack Clemmer had done that.
And it was a fantastic story ofhow he became a Christian and
stuff. And the BBC did it. Andthe response was, Oh, my
(07:35):
goodness, when he just listenedto that guy, because he earned
the right to be heard. So whenthere was a success, I took
about two and a half seconds tothink, who else would know who's
the right to be heard? CS Lewis.
Now, I had not been brought upon 90 and stuff as a kid. But I
looked into Louis and alreadyobviously knew him, but I
(07:55):
thought it was a Christian, butthe when you look into it, it's
an amazing life, that he had anamazing understanding, a real
gift, expressing that. So thatcame that became the first
Shadowlands, his relationshipwith joy Davidman, mainly that
centered on and because of that,that was my next big film work.
I did another couple of films atthe same time, but that one,
(08:18):
Shadowlands really went offaround the world. Lewis talks to
people without effort, it wouldseem, he tells the truth, right,
without effort, he actually hasbeen there and back again, but
you listen to him because he's,he's still got the scars,
Somebody wanna said to me, andthat's right. So he's worth
listening to
John Matarazzo (08:39):
Absolutely.
There's almost a limitlesssource of information about his
writings, and there's booksabout his writings even because
he's just been thatinspirational. Yeah. So first
off, thank you so much fortaking that interest, and just
really the call of God and, and,you know, God put his finger on
something, and you responded toit, and then really opened up a
(09:00):
big door where more people areinterested in CS Lewis, because
of things like Shadow Lands andshoe you know, I'm thinking, you
know, that you said about theBBC film, but I grew up watching
the BBC, dramas of The Lion, theWitch and the Wardrobe and
Prince Caspian. And you knowthose things. And so I'm sure
(09:23):
that because of the success ofwhat you did, that kind of
translated to them wanting to beable to dramatize and put those
put those great stories on thescreen as well. So I don't think
I don't think my childhood would
Norman Stone (09:39):
it be? Well, maybe my childhood would have
John Matarazzo (09:43):
been as colorful if it hadn't been for the steps
that you take. And so thank you,as I'm realizing this right now,
I think you had, I think you hada great party.
Norman Stone (09:50):
But well, back then, when I did Shetlands, the,
somebody a journalist asked me aquestion. He said, What are you
hoping to achieve with thisfilm? And I had to think on my
feet and I said, Well, you I'dlike to swing open the library
doors. And you make a very goodpoint there because I think, I
mean, Louis has sold over aquarter of a billion books. Yes,
that was a big difference.
billion books. I don't know ifanyone else has done that. So
(10:12):
you have this man who had booksare all out there winking Go, go
figure, I can alert people'shearts or minds or brains or
hungers. I can just say thatreading is there. So we have an
incredible resource of loosestruth and a way of expressing
things very, very well. But wealso have a way of opening that
(10:35):
door with a key like a filmora,or a stage play.
John Matarazzo (10:40):
Yeah. And speaking of stage play, I mean,
you and Max work together onthis. And Max played the part of
the elder CES. And I just lovehow this film, it really felt
like a one man play that justkind of grew into and it's
almost like you came come intothe imagination and the memories
(11:01):
of it. It was done in a way thatI've never seen anything quite
like that. Maybe it broke thefourth wall, but seamlessly.
Yeah, I
Norman Stone (11:10):
make a point.
John Matarazzo (11:11):
Can I just hear about that? Oh, yeah, I have
Norman Stone (11:13):
to confess this is why I'm over running. It used to
say, I stole it from Dickens.
Okay. Because when you
John Matarazzo (11:20):
can steal from Dickens anytime. That's fun.
Norman Stone (11:23):
When A Christmas Carol, which you have seen or
read, or both, when the oldunrepentant sinner Scrooge is
woken up by the ghosts ofChristmas past, he is taken
physically back to his childhoodthere is as a young lad at
school, left behind, nobodywants him before his sister
turns up and he gets taken away.
And he looks at himself. And Ialways thought, from an early
(11:46):
age, I thought that is reallypowerful. Because he is there
present looking at himselfbefore he was ruined by his own
terrible miserliness and so on.
So if you can actually take anaudience with you into a
person's past, and if you canget the older Louis commenting
(12:09):
like a guide about what's goingon, and before you know it, he's
in the scene with them. And he'sgoing through his life. It's
doubly powerful. It works. So Iexperimented with it, and I
loved it. It was good fun. Andit worked.
John Matarazzo (12:27):
I loved it, too.
And when you say that, itdefinitely does have that feel.
Without the The Haunting aspectof it that the Christmas Carol
does, yeah, you use that sametechnique, but in a different
way. And you get a differentfeeling. But you get a very
powerful result. And I love thatthe elder CES is definitely a
guide in this the guide Narratortype of person. Yeah, it's, it's
(12:50):
done very well. And I appreciateit. And of
Norman Stone (12:55):
course, we didn't make up his words. The true.
Yeah, it's using Louis's words,more or less all the time
anyway. So it's not like we'reputting words into his mouth
that he wouldn't say, you know,he authored most of those words,
himself. So you do get really tothe bone straightaway bang.
John Matarazzo (13:11):
Now, I noticed that in the film, there was
something at the beginning, youguys kind of had to had to
explain that this was filmedunder very interesting times. I
mean, we had a pandemic goingon, where it was very strict
lockdowns. But none of thecharacters were wearing masks in
the film. But you guys had todeal with some things and unique
(13:33):
ways. Can you can you talk aboutthe making of the film during
that time period, especiallybecause you're on location? This
isn't on a soundstage somewhere?
Norman Stone (13:40):
Yes. Well, no, it isn't. And that was a problem.
No one else was filming. At thattime. We seem to be the only
crew that doing it. And we hadto pay huge amounts per test. We
had to do all the due diligenceand pay a lot of money just to
make sure we kept safe. Butthere's something more than
that. Yes, we were filmingduring that time. But as I look
(14:01):
to Lewis's power of speech andwords, historically, he went up
to London, to appear on the BBCat their request to explain the
Christian faith to people whowere being bombed to bits by
Hitler in the Blitz, okay. So hewent up into the bombs talk
about that, and apparently, manypublic house public landlords
(14:27):
will be shouting, quiet,everybody. Mr. Lewis is on the
radio, and they'll be quiet andthey sit there be listening to
Lewis explain the Christianfaith. I find that fantastic.
Now, the relevance here is neversince the Blitz has Britain and
probably as though Britain,Britain has come to terms with
it had to come to terms of hisown mortality, because Mrs.
(14:52):
McCafferty down the road in 1942may have been blown up by
Hitler's bombs, but now he'sdied if the same equivalent of a
night near neighbor being dyingfrom COVID. When COVID came
sweeping across our societies,you couldn't pretend you're just
a happy consumer with two and ahalf kids and a nice extra car,
or whatever you were told we hadto do. And that was the meaning
(15:15):
of life it isn't. And peoplefaced mortality, their own
mortality, never as much assince the Blitz in London. And
Lewis spoke to that in Londonduring the Blitz he spoke to us
now speaks to us now. And wehave a reason to know that life
is not endless. And Alicia.
John Matarazzo (15:38):
Yeah, definitely. I want to hear you
talk about the fact that youwere able to go on, on location
for a lot of these places thatLewis actually was, and I don't
want to give away the ending ofit. But I mean, the reveal at
the end just kind of gave mechills of where where he
actually was, but could you talkabout the importance of going to
(16:01):
these actual locations that youcould?
Norman Stone (16:02):
Yes, there is something about being in the
actual same place. Not always,but we lose his life. Yes. The
house where he lived, thekitchens, and everything
happened. We filmed there inthat house. We went to his rooms
in more than courage, Oxford,that close does and all that
(16:24):
place is fantastic. There's aplace called Addison's walkway
really prepared Lewis to acceptthe faith. And we went on that
the same place. Wonderful placein Oxford. So it wasn't a case
of could we build it? Yeah. Whybuild it when it's there? And we
need it. It's a lot cheaper notto build. But you do have
(16:44):
something of an atmospheric. Youdo have something. When he talks
about this? Well, there it is.
And it went extraordinary. Well,we had to shoot it very quickly.
But fortunately, that doesn'tshow and the crew will who are a
very top professional featurefilm crew that Kenneth Branagh
uses, who did Belfast and allthese things. And they all
(17:07):
didn't just come on work. Andthey talk about Lewis through
their lunchtime, they werecompletely taken by the story.
One or two had been great Nonyafans, and this top professional
crew threw themselves at thisand owned it. So they actually
appear in the film themselves attimes, especially at the
beginning. So after that, it wasfairly easy. I mustn't take
(17:29):
credit for all this stuff. Theteam was what makes the whole
thing work, but it is unusual.
And I hope it's an unusual filmthat does both sides of the
Christian divide have hadletters and emails from people
who aren't Christians. And I'vehad loads from those are, but it
should go across the board. Ifthere's a way of telling a
story. Tell it and we'veexperimented a bit with them. It
(17:51):
was great fun.
John Matarazzo (17:52):
What is your favorite work of Lewis's to mean
in books and books? Yeah,
Norman Stone (17:56):
this is gonna sound odd. Probably A Grief
Observed. Now I love the MereChristianity. Yes, good. And of
course, surprised by joy.
Fantastic, which is what weenjoyed ourselves within this
film. But when Joy Davidmandied, his wife died after
getting better being healed. Andjust when they thought they were
(18:18):
free of the castle of the giantdespair, as he put it, she was
snatched back and died horribly,actually. And he was not for
six. But he wrote a book calledA Grief Observed and there are
no Hallelujah Chorus is at theend. But as always, he was
relentlessly honest. And if I amhonest with you, I know people
(18:40):
that have burst into tearsChristian and non Christian by
reading that book. He's just sostraightforward doing it, but he
writes it as a Christian, stillgoing through the mail still
being backed up and so on.
Before I did the originalShadowlands, I met a very
interesting lady who's lived ina Miss Marple coffee just
outside of just outside ofOxford, and she'd known Lewis
(19:04):
well, and she knew don't goDavid and, and well. And I said
to her, tell me this amazingbook called A Grief Observed or
I knew that yes, I know that.
And I said, well, it doesn't sayanywhere that he got back his
faith at anytime that book endswith the honest bleakness of
death, but with something elseafter that, but did he ever get
his faith fully back? I need toknow that from someone who knew
(19:27):
him? And she said, Oh, yes, inthe end, you know, he was
stronger than ever. And then Sheleant forward. I can see her
now. And she said, but do youknow, you could always see the
scars? And I said, That's it gotthe film. Wow, is it and that
book does that in the end withthat feeling. So here on the
(19:49):
right to be heard, after all,that's all I'd say. I think
we're now out of time. I lovethat got somebody else coming
on. Ma'am, oh, sure, sure. Well,
John Matarazzo (20:01):
I just want to thank anyone else that so they
will Thank you, Norman for yourtime. I appreciate it. The and
I'll provide all the all theinformation so that people can
watch this film. And they cancheck it out at CS Lewis
movie.com. Thank you for doingand, yes. Thank you so much,
Norman. I appreciate it.
Norman Stone (20:21):
Thank you, John.
It's been a real pleasure. Thankyou. And coming up
John Matarazzo (20:25):
in a moment, actor Max McLean opens up about
his portrayal of the manhimself, CS Lewis, right after
this short message.
Mike Lindell (20:33):
Hello, I'm Michael Sandel, CEO of my pillow,
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John Matarazzo (21:14):
We want to thank my pillow for sponsoring the
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when you use the promo codecharisma. Once again, go to my
pillow.com and enter the promocode charisma or call
800-598-1793 for this amazingoffer. Well, I am here with Max
McClain of the fellowship forperforming arts a phenomenal
group that he started. Andthey've done many plays a lot of
(21:59):
them based around CS Lewis, hisworks. But right now we're going
to talk about one that hecreated as a one man show called
The most reluctant convert,which has now turned into a
phenomenal film, which I had theopportunity to see on the big
screen. So I'm really excited totalk with Max McLean. Thanks so
much for being on the charismanews podcast, Max.
Max McLean (22:21):
Thank you, John.
John Matarazzo (22:23):
So how long have you been doing CS Lewis plays?
And how did you come up with thescripts for the most reluctant
convert?
Max McLean (22:32):
Yeah. I've been working with Lewis for about 15
plus years, maybe 17 years.
Screwtape Letters was our firstand the great divorce. It was
because of Screwtape. And thegreat divorce in the fact that
both deal with aspects of hisconversion. And his resistance
(22:52):
to conversion. In the case of ofScrewtape, it was how the
spiritual warfare would keep himaway from Christ. Yeah. And in
the great divorce, it was how heresisted the Holy Spirit, both
(23:12):
ways. And so they're verypersonal, both those books. So
it made me go back to hismemoir, surprised by joy, which
is the, what he calls the shapeof his early life. And, and that
book ends with his conversion ofChrist. Yeah.
John Matarazzo (23:33):
So how did you take this and decide that you
wanted to do a one man play? Imean, because that's, that's a,
that's a huge undertaking. Andthat's a lot of lines to
memorize. And I'm not an actor.
So I look at, I look at somebodylike you that can memorize all
this. I mean, because there's alot of quotes. It's not just,
it's not just scripting, it'sreal things that he actually
(23:54):
said. So you have to remember ita certain way. How difficult was
that for you? Well, that was
Max McLean (24:01):
the that was the objective to do that very thing
to to attempt to create thecharacter of CS Lewis, from his
own words, so that an audiencemember would would have an
opportunity to, to really hearfrom him to know what it was
(24:21):
like to be in the room with himto think his thoughts after him.
So my work was to do the heavylifting of all that memory work,
all that putting together thescript, so that the audience
could get an experience of CSLewis. And that's what we
attempted to do with this film.
John Matarazzo (24:38):
Very cool.
Before we start talking aboutthe film, I want to talk about
your personal connection with CSLewis. What was your first book
that you read of his or what wasyour How did you first come to
know him? Yeah,
Max McLean (24:49):
yeah, it was early in my Christian walk. I was an
adult convert in my 20s. Thebook the first book that really
captured my attention was TheScrewtape Letters. And the very
first scene of The ScrewtapeLetters you might remember it's
about Screwtape is recountinghis successes. And he mentions a
man reading in the BritishMuseum. Do you remember that
(25:12):
scene. And he obviously isreading something that's really
captured his imagination. AndScrewtape says he sees 20 years
work beginning to fall apart.
And he whispers in his ear,isn't it just about time for
lunch. And he distracts him fromwhat he was doing. And when he
(25:34):
ends that he says, you know, hegot the man back on track for
him to bring him to our fatherbelow safely. He's safely with
our father below. And he says,the end of that. It's funny how
these humans picture us asputting things into their minds.
Our best work is done by keepingthings out. And I said, Okay,
(25:56):
this man is someone to bereckoned with. Yeah,
John Matarazzo (26:03):
definitely. I'm glad that that passage really
put a hook in you, because thathas led you to do a lot of his
works on the stage.
Max McLean (26:12):
Well, you know, if you're faithful to Christ here,
you're going to try to figureout a way to integrate your
faith with your work. And, andthat's what what I was trying to
do with with Lewis Lewis, helpsme to understand my faith better
(26:34):
is through presenting, Louis,that I feel that I am
communicating Christ moreclearly, more vividly, more
provocatively, more profoundly.
John Matarazzo (26:46):
Yeah. And I definitely agree with that.
Because every time I hear Lewis,his work, it it causes me to
think and to really process whoGod is even more. Yeah, exactly.
So Max, I want to talk aboutthis film, the most reluctant
convert, how did it go frombeing a play script to being a
(27:10):
screenplay to being up on the onthe silver screen? Yeah,
Max McLean (27:13):
yeah. Well, you know, a play script is pretty
simple. In the sense of, youhave, you have one set, you have
costume, you have lighting, youhave a set. In our case, we had
projection designs, we had areally good soundscape. And it's
one person on stage. When Iasked Norman to make it a film,
(27:40):
it went from one person on stageon one set to 18 different
locations in and around Oxford,15 actors 190 extras 270
costumes, it became quite anevent. And of course, that's
what film does, it opens it upin terms of making a film, as
opposed to making a play, youknow, play, you rehearse for a
(28:02):
month or so. And you do it insequence from beginning to end.
Right and film this hardly anyrehearsal in the same way, you
know, you you break it up intotiny little pieces. And you try
to figure out the continuitybetween piece by piece because
they're not done in order. Andthen you leave it up to at least
in my case, I left it up to thedirector and, and the editors to
(28:25):
piece all those things together.
Yeah. And that's what happenedwith our movie.
John Matarazzo (28:31):
That's really cool. You guys filmed this,
during the pandemic, the heightof the pandemic. And so you were
really some of the only peoplethat were doing this type of
work. Yeah.
Max McLean (28:41):
Norman said that he he gave us notice that
filmmaking was going to be readyto go at a particular time in
England. And I said, Okay, let'slet's be prepared when it opens.
And he was able to get a crewand a cast. That was first rate.
(29:01):
Nobody had worked since March.
We started in August, finishedin October. And as soon as we
finished, they shut down thecountry again. Oh, wow. So it
was a real small window, about asix week window, where
filmmaking could actually bemade, and very few films were
made. But ours was and you know,we we greenlit the film in the
(29:22):
summer of 20. We shot in thefall of 20. Did all post
production in the winter 21. Andthen we made plans to release
it, and it did release inNovember 2021.
John Matarazzo (29:37):
Yeah. And I really enjoyed the film and I
love that you got to play twoparts. Basically, you played
yourself and also yourself as CSLewis, kind of as a very, a way
to bring the audience into theplay into the movie that I
hadn't seen before. And itreally it shook me but that It
(30:00):
brought me right in. I reallythought that was a cool way to a
cool method to start the filmand then also end it.
Max McLean (30:09):
Well, that was that was Norman's vision from
beginning to end, because hisobjective was, he wanted to stay
as close to the stage play whilemaking a movie. And so he he had
this device of, of the actorpreparing. Yeah. And then
getting into it, talkingdirectly to the camera. And, you
(30:34):
know, it was I trusted normalthat it would work. But I'd
never done that before either.
John Matarazzo (30:40):
Yeah, and I believe that it definitely did
work. It worked for me and it,it shook me, then it pulled me
right in and it prepared me tothink this is something that
it's different. And it's veryunique. You know, Max, you guys
did these on location? Where notjust on any location on the
(31:01):
locations, the actual historicallocations, where CS studied
where he lived? Yes. What wasthat like for you of being
somebody that has beeninfluenced by CS Lewis so much?
What was it like to be in thesame places? Well, it
Max McLean (31:15):
was amazing. You know, being at modeline College,
we were spent three days inmodeling College, the library,
his rooms, not exactly his roomswere very approximate his rooms
because his rooms have becomesort of a chemistry lab, the
Addison's walk, we weren't ableto get into the eagle and child
the burden, baby, but we had apup very similar, the white
(31:38):
horse in not too far away. Butit still gave that that sense
of, of being in a small smokyEnglish pub. We were in the
kilns, you know, at differentlocations in around Oxford. I
think the film in many ways isis like an advertisement for
Oxford. It's just Oh, yeah, itreally makes people want to go
(32:01):
there.
John Matarazzo (32:02):
Definitely. I mean, I, I loved it. I mean, the
cinematography was was reallyimpressive. And it just kind of
it brought you into thoselocations. And I felt like I was
there, which is what you want todo in a movie? Yes. So the movie
came out in November, Decemberof 2021. Yeah. And what was the
(32:22):
response that you've seen?
Max McLean (32:23):
Well, we're way beyond what we thought. I mean,
it was on the day it opened, itwas a number two film in
America, it did better thanbond. And it was second only to
dune. And the primary reason forthat is we were in 450 screens,
and they were in 3000 screens.
But our per screen average wasway higher. So the movie
(32:44):
theaters really took notice. Andthey said, You know what, we
want to keep this movie. So itwas supposed to be one night
only, and it ran for a month.
And then more recently, it wasit's been as high as number four
on Apple TV for independentfilms, number 12. And for DVD
(33:07):
releases, and on Amazon. So it'sreally making an impact. And I'm
grateful it's found itsaudience.
John Matarazzo (33:17):
That's great.
That is really, really cool.
And, you know, since we'retalking about that, right now, I
just want to let people knowthat if you go to CS Lewis
movie.com, you can get all theinformation on how to get the
how to get the streaming versionof it or to buy it digitally.
However you want to get it, youcan get that information there.
So CS Lewis movie.com. Max, foryou. I mean, you've done many
(33:44):
things about CS Lewis, in yourlife. Is there another movie
about CS Lewis that's coming?
What else is going on with you?
Max McLean (33:52):
Yeah, the first thing is I I've created another
stage play the film, and that'sthe original stage by the most
reluctant convert ends at hisconversion of Christ. It wasn't
obvious in 1931, when heconverted that he would become
the most influential Christianwriter of the 20th century and
beyond. How did that take place?
What you know, happened in hischaracter that the Lord just
(34:16):
opened the floodgates, you know,gave him a national platform and
the BBC. How did listening toHitler's Reichstag speech in
1940, influenced his writing ofScrewtape? How did he become
such an effective evangelist,especially the skeptics, and his
(34:38):
maturity of thought, you know,what he thought about prayer,
how powerful prayer was in hislife? I'm very curious. It's
called further up further inbecause most of us go to Louis,
because we expect to be risen toexpect to come to a higher
place. has to have some kind ofconnection with the universe
(35:01):
next door to something outsideof ourselves. And so this play
helps us offer that to, to ouraudiences. I'm looking forward.
It was, we developed it, wespent about a year on it
developed it had a workshop inin Houston, previewed it in
Phoenix. And the response wasamazing. It was really an
(35:23):
overwhelming response, probablygreater than anything I've done.
And I'm just really we're gonnaroll it out nationally, this
fall.
John Matarazzo (35:36):
Okay, so this is a this is another one man play.
Right, right.
Max McLean (35:40):
In terms of films, Norman and I have made an
agreement to do two new filmstogether. We anticipate
beginning actually doing thebudgeting and the end the
treatment now writing thescripts over the next six, eight
months, and hopefully get intoproduction mid next year.
John Matarazzo (36:03):
Oh, cool. Well, I'm looking forward to all these
things that you just talkedabout, what is the website that
that people can follow?
Max McLean (36:10):
Yeah, it's the work that we do is, you'll be able to
follow at CS Lewis movie.com, CSLewis movie.com.
John Matarazzo (36:17):
And what about the, if somebody has the
opportunity to see you on thestage,
Max McLean (36:21):
oh, that you can go to CS Lewis on stage.com. CS
Lewis on stage.com. And that'll,that's pretty easy to remember
that the the further up furtherin play.
John Matarazzo (36:36):
That's wonderful. So CS, Lewis,
movie.com, and CS Lewis onstage.com. Get you all the
information that you need to seethese amazing works, whether it
be on this screen, or in person.
And Max, I just want to thankyou so much for taking some time
to talk about CS Lewis and howhe's impacted your life. And
now, because he's impacted yourlife so much. He's now impacting
(36:59):
so many other people throughthrough the work that you're
doing. And so thank you so muchfor using the arts for the
kingdom of God the way that youare. Thank you. You've been
listening to the charisma newspodcast. I'm John Matarazzo. God
bless you. Thank you forlistening to this episode of
along the way. If you've enjoyedjoining me along my way, please
share this with a friend who youthink will be encouraged by this
(37:21):
podcast. Also, please rate andreview along the way on iTunes
that helps more people discoveralong the way. And please
subscribe to this podcastwherever you're listening. You
can follow me on Facebook,Instagram and through my website
along the way dot media. On mywebsite, you can sign up to
receive newsletter updateswhenever I put out a new
episode, so you don't miss one.
(37:44):
If you want to help support mein this podcast, I have a
Patreon page. The link to becomea supporter is also in my show
notes. I hope that you'veenjoyed this part of my journey
and may you realize when Jesusis walking with you along your
way. Along the way is honored tobe part of the charisma Podcast
(38:04):
Network. You can find tons ofspirit filled content from our
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