September 23, 2024 • 58 mins
In this engaging follow-up conversation with Erin Jones, an independent scholar and educator, we dive into the core themes of her latest book, Constructing Canine Consent. Erin, an expert in the ethical dimensions of the dog-human relationship, shares the top five aspects she hopes will spark curiosity in readers of her book. This episode offers a deeper look into the critical questions and ideas that Erin believes are essential for anyone interested in understanding and improving their relationship with dogs.
What You’ll Discover in This Episode:
- The significance of canine consent in training and everyday interactions.
- How understanding the ethical implications of the dog-human relationship can lead to better communication and trust.
- The role of curiosity in questioning traditional dog training practices.
- Why it's important to explore the psychological and anthropological aspects of human-animal interactions.
- How Erin's interdisciplinary approach can inspire a more thoughtful and informed perspective on dog behavior and care.
Why This Episode Is a Must-Listen: This episode is a must-listen for readers of Constructing Canine Consent and anyone interested in deepening their understanding of the ethical considerations in dog training. Erin Jones’ insights will challenge you to think critically about the way you interact with dogs and encourage you to explore new ideas and perspectives.
Engage With Us: We invite you to subscribe to our podcast, share this episode with fellow animal enthusiasts, and join our community for further discussions on ethical dog training and behavior. Your thoughts and experiences are always appreciated as we continue to explore the best practices in canine care.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host Ryan Carledge and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015 we've been on a mission
to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence and maximising their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
And what led her to write her first
book, Constructing Canine Consent, which we're going to
talk more about today.
However, if you haven't listened to that episode
(01:52):
yet, you are of course welcome to start
here with part two, where you're still going
to gain plenty of insights to help you
on your journey to have your biggest positive
impact on the lives of all the animals
and human learners that you work with.
So let's dive in.
Just to start with, we'll reintroduce Erin Jones,
who is an independent scholar, content editor for
(02:15):
the IAABC Foundation Journal, international speaker and educator,
and as mentioned, author.
She holds a PhD in human animal studies,
a MS in anthrozoology, a BS with honours
in psychology and anthropology, and researches and writes
about the ethical dimensions of the dog-human
(02:36):
relationship.
Erin is also a certified dog behaviour consultant
and accredited dog trainer with the IAABC, a
certified professional dog trainer with the CCPDT, and
accredited animal behaviour consultant with Cairns.
Her new book, Constructing Canine Consent, is available
in bookstores worldwide, and her other publications are
(03:00):
available to access on her website, www.meritdogproject
.com.
So Erin, thank you so much for coming
back to hang out with us again on
the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
Thanks for having me, I'm excited.
Yeah, I'm excited to talk about your book
today, and just to be fully transparent with
(03:22):
everyone, I haven't had the chance to read
it yet.
That word yet is important, unfortunately, but I
plan to do so soon.
The reason I wanted to have Erin on
the show, the reason I wanted to have
you on the show, Erin, even before I've
had the chance to go through your book,
is because numerous ATA members have reached out
to me directly to share their thoughts.
(03:44):
They've told me how much they've enjoyed it,
how much they're looking forward to reading it,
and how eager they are to learn more
from you.
So here we are.
So how about you start off by telling
the listeners a little bit about your new
book and how it came about?
Sure, so my new book, Constructing Canine Consent,
is about constructing a canine-indexed definition of
(04:05):
consent, which I'm sure we'll talk more about.
How it came about is, well, interesting.
It was sort of an evolution.
It wasn't necessarily something that I set out
to do initially, but when I started my
PhD journey, I was interested in the idea
(04:27):
or the topic or the questions about how
people thought about consent, whether it applies to
our dogs, and how it can apply to
our dogs.
And as I mentioned when I was speaking
with you before, that my dog Juno was
a massive influence in the way that I
(04:48):
was thinking about these questions.
She was a very fearful puppy, and I
really wanted to consider her agency and her
choices in my behavior intervention plans for her
as she was growing up.
And so that got me thinking about how
I can get her to understand about consent
(05:13):
and or withdrawal of consent, and be able
to communicate that successfully with me, and how
I can foster that in our relationship.
And so that sort of seeped into my
thesis proposal, and into my investigation with dog
(05:34):
owners and other dog trainers as well.
And it was definitely an interesting, I mean,
the more I thought about it, the more
convoluted it was.
It was simply, it wasn't simply, you know,
this cut and dry, we ask for consent,
they give it to us, we pet them
kind of thing.
(05:55):
There were just so many ethical questions around
those interactions that we're having, and whether they're
fair, whether the choices we're offering them are
fair choices to be to be offering.
And considering we're, you know, and we'll get
into all those details.
(06:15):
But I just, I guess I got to
this point where I thought, wow, I have
more questions than I do answers.
And that continued to snowball, where I had
more and more questions about it.
But those questions were really important to me,
because it was about thinking about our relationship
in a different way.
(06:36):
So it was about asking difficult questions that
may not have answers, but that can make
me think about that relationship more critically.
And honing in on those critical thinking skills
was a really big part of this for
me.
And interestingly enough, I did think about writing
a book, I wasn't thinking about writing a
(06:59):
book specifically on the topic of consent, because
that was only a small part of my
PhD thesis.
But when I was nearing the end of
my PhD journey, I still had a couple
of months left, I had the editor from
Taylor and Francis, which is the publication company,
(07:21):
contact me.
She had been speaking with a friend of
mine who was writing a book for her,
and they had somehow gotten on to the
topic of consent.
And she suggested contacting me about this, because
she thought it would make a really great
book.
And so we had our meeting.
(07:42):
And I was super excited, but a little
bit nervous, because I'd obviously never written a
book before, although I did write a thesis,
which was 300 plus pages, the same thing,
I guess.
And but and I definitely wanted to, it
just wasn't something I had, I wasn't there
yet in my journey, I wasn't really thinking
(08:02):
about that yet.
But that I decided to do it.
And so I really kind of took the
chapter that I had written on consent in
my thesis and expanded it.
She wanted just a short book on the
topic.
And that's kind of what I did.
But I also wanted to write about the
(08:25):
ethical questions about consent, not just like how
it's applicable, or not just like the mechanics
of it, although that's part of it.
I really wanted to ask those questions about,
well, can they always consent?
And what if they can't consent?
What then?
How do we navigate those situations?
(08:46):
And are our dogs actually autonomous?
Or are they not because they are living
under human care and control?
So as much as some of those questions
were slightly painful, and difficult to think about,
they became increasingly important and all play into
(09:07):
how I've constructed a canine indexed definition of
consent.
Thanks for sharing all of that.
And I feel like you were talking about
my podcast show when you said that you've
always got more questions than you have answers
for.
So I've got a lot of questions written
down.
But I'm curious about the editor's interest in
(09:32):
a book on consent, and how the title
has resonated with our audience and whether this
topic of consent has always been of interest,
will always be of interest, or is consent
really relevant to now, in terms of how
the culture of our specific community, and when
(09:55):
I say our specific community, what I mean
is a community of trainers, people interested in
behavior, who focus on positive reinforcement, and have
been since the 60s in the use of
positive reinforcement in zoos, Karen Pryor's contribution, clicker
(10:17):
training, to where we are in 2024.
Is consent a topic of interest now?
Or has it always been that way?
And do you think it's always going to
be?
Or are we in the space now where
we're really starting to explore this more, and
it's more relevant now now that it hasn't
been relevant?
Do you understand my question?
I do understand your question.
(10:37):
And I think, yeah.
So I think it sort of became apparent
to me anyway, in the last maybe 10
years, where, I mean, I think there's always
been some elements of the ideas behind consent,
when we're talking about things like cooperative care,
for example, or we're talking about voluntary cooperation,
(11:00):
when we're talking about positive reinforcement, and, you
know, creating behavior change through choice, those kinds
of topics have been around for a while.
But putting that together in an idea about
consent, I think is relatively new, especially when
it comes to other animals.
(11:21):
I mean, it's a difficult topic in and
of itself, even when we're talking about humans,
whether they have the capacity to consent or
not, we're talking about children, or maybe people
with diminished mental capacity, you know, there's a
lot of debate around that in the academic
world.
And so applying the idea of consent to
(11:43):
non-human animals is definitely, I think, a
relatively, I mean, there was very little literature
about it.
That's for sure.
And so I think it's a very new
concept in that sort of exploration of how
it could apply to our relationships with other
(12:08):
animals.
But like I said, I think it's been
there, and it's definitely a word that I
had heard before going into all this.
It's definitely not something I, you know, I
just conjured up.
It was definitely like I heard about consent
behaviors, for example, in cooperative care, consent tests,
and our interactions with other animals.
(12:30):
And I've always advocated for lots of, you
know, freedom to communicate in those regards.
But I think in how it's applied, I
think it's just starting to come together now.
Well, can you give us a brief literature
review of what you found in the literature
(12:53):
and what were for you some of the
most insightful pieces of literature that you found?
Yeah, so I think for me, it was
about pulling the pieces together.
So looking at literature on, for example, autonomy
in other animals was something that I looked
(13:15):
at pretty significantly.
And so there's sort of two sides to
the coin.
There are other animals autonomous if they, A,
are living under human control.
And even if they're not living under human
control, some people believe that they need the
ability to reason in order to be fully
(13:36):
autonomous.
And so they argue that other animals aren't
fully autonomous for that reason.
But I would argue that that's not the
case.
And there's certainly arguments like Lori Gruen, for
example, in Entangled Empathies, her book Entangled Empathies
is a really great read.
And Donaldson and Kimlica wrote a book called
(13:57):
Zoopolis, which I absolutely love.
And, you know, they'll talk about how other
animals absolutely can be autonomous, that they are
making decisions about and choices about their lives
in a way that matters to them, then
they have the ability to be autonomous.
And I would argue that our dogs do
(14:17):
have the ability to be autonomous, although they're
not fully autonomous, because they are, I don't
want to say are captives, but they are
living in our homes under our control.
And so we design their environment for them,
we design the choices that are available to
them in many ways.
And we micromanage their lives, even things like
(14:39):
going to the bathroom, or who they get
to play with, and when and where they
get to eat, and those kinds of things.
So they're not fully autonomous.
So I think that that part of the
literature was an important piece of the puzzle.
And then talking about things like choice, there's
lots of interesting literature about improved optimism for
(15:02):
animals who have greater choice, although I do
recognize that much of that literature comes from
captive animal settings, which is a bit ironic,
I think, because they don't truly have choice,
but offering them some different choices, definitely improved
their positive welfare in those situations.
(15:26):
And so, yeah, I think those were the
two main things that I kind of tied
together with this idea of consent.
And then looking at the literature on consent
itself was a bit helpful, but also I
wanted to construct it in a way that
wasn't human centered.
So as I was reading through literature about
(15:47):
consent in and of itself, or the idea
of informed consent is which what most people
think of when they're thinking about consent, it
was all very, very specifically human.
And so it made me think more of
and and when I was doing my own
research, a lot of the roadblocks that I
found people faced when thinking about whether consent
(16:09):
applied to dogs, was that they were thinking
about it in very specifically human terms, like,
well, we can't, they can't, you know, read
and write.
So how could they enter this legally binding
contract with us about and consent to these
things.
And so I really, I, it took me
(16:30):
down the path of well, why can't we
then take the perspective of dogs and create
a definition of consent that's applicable to their
realities and their specific capabilities and abilities.
And so that's, I guess, where I ended
up with constructing this and then going down
and taking pieces of information from the cognitive
(16:52):
behavioral research that's out there about, you know,
their experiences and their point of view of
the world, or what we talked about in
the first podcast about their umbels, about their,
their sense, their, how they sense their environment
and their unique ability to navigate their environment
in a way that's inherently theirs.
(17:14):
And so, obviously, we don't know everything, but
there is a great deal that we do
know about their abilities and capabilities.
And so we can understand about their body
language, for example, and that can absolutely mean
that there's no reason why a fully functioning
adult dog couldn't consent and communicate in their
(17:37):
own way, just because they can't communicate the
same way that humans do doesn't mean that
they can't communicate at all.
It just means that we are too dumb
to fully understand.
And so that is a limitation for us.
And so we have to recognize that we
have that bias or that limitation, and therefore
(17:58):
try to create one that is something that
we that can be a two way communication
between dogs and humans that we can understand,
and that they can try, they can tell
us when they consent or withdraw that consent,
and that we can understand those communication signals.
So there's a, it was interesting to bring
(18:19):
together so much literature, because I was kind
of pulling from all of these different fields
of study, which is a really big challenge
in and of itself, because each of those
different fields of study have their own theories
and their own language that they use.
And so bringing it all together in a
(18:41):
cohesive way, isn't easy.
It is what I did in my, my
PhD thesis as well.
So I did have a bit of practice
with it, but it's, it's definitely a challenge
in that you have to kind of bring
it together to make it sound like you're
not, you know, to make it sound like
it, it all fits together.
(19:02):
Which is, yeah, it can be really hard,
but I think I, I hope I did
an alright job with it.
Well, I, can I share something with you?
Yes.
I, I use artificial intelligence and chant GPT
a lot for lots of different things.
And I like playing with it and exploring
things of it.
And some of the terms we used about
(19:23):
and talked about, sorry, in part one, human
exceptionalism, I wasn't super familiar with.
So I like to ask artificial intelligence, like
that was a question, which is beneficial for
me.
And it's embarrassing to share it, but it's
like, Hey, take, take this thing that Erin
shared and explain it to me like I
(19:44):
was a five-year-old.
And it like really simplifies things.
And, and I really liked there that you
said, you are trying to make it all
fit together.
Cause this is what chat GPT told me,
right.
And tell me that Erin has like a
toy box.
And in this toy box is all of
these different jigsaw puzzles.
Some are square, some are circle, some are
(20:05):
triangle.
And it would seem that you can only
make these individual jigsaws.
But what you're suggesting is that you can
take all of the individual jigsaw puzzles and
put them together and create something brand new.
Yes.
I love that.
And, but it's hard, it's hard to conceptualize
(20:25):
that doesn't fit together necessarily that easily because
it's not something that I had, I just
read a book about, you know, dog consent
and I was like, oh yeah, that makes
sense.
I had to piece it all together myself,
but also like learning about the theories and
maybe different social sciences and then behavioral sciences
(20:47):
and, you know, animal, animal rights theories and
the literature around that, which was a big,
definitely a big part of, of my research
is, is based on the, those philosophical readings
or, you know, those, those theories based in
philosophy.
(21:08):
Because I truly think, especially when you're sort
of on the dawning of something relatively new
or a new concept or a paradigm shift
is what I like to think of it
as, you know, we've kind of reached this,
this place in our understanding of other animals
where we can start to, to make this
shift into a new way of, of being
(21:28):
with them in a similar way that maybe
we've done, you know, that we've done in
the past with other parallels of oppression that
we've experienced.
You know, we kind of get to this
point where like, okay, we need to make
a shift and it's a process.
It's not something that happens overnight, but it's
some, and it's not easy.
It's not, it's change is very difficult for
(21:50):
all of us.
And especially when we have to conceptualize something
in a new way, when we've been doing
it one way for a long time and
it seemed to be fine.
And it seemed to be fine for us,
but it wasn't necessarily fine for the other
party.
So I'm hoping that this is a paradigm
shift.
(22:11):
That's like my aim for everything, I think.
And, and so I definitely concede that I
do have a lot of questions that may
not have answers, but they may never have
answers either.
They may just be questions that we ask
to think about things in a different perspective
(22:32):
or a different way.
And I think asking those questions, even if
they're somewhat rhetorical questions, are a really important
part of that process.
And I recognize that it is a process
because for me, it's been a lifelong process
and I didn't just start here, you know,
overnight.
It's been a journey for me.
(22:55):
And I look back to even what I
knew three or four years ago, and I
know a lot more now than I did
then.
And that's always evolving.
And that's the same with science, right?
We're always coming out with new information that
can help us in gaining a better understanding
of the way our dogs operate.
(23:16):
And so I definitely say that in my,
I think it's my last chapter that, hey,
look, you know, this definition is kind of
a jumping off point for us.
It may change slightly over the years because
we are going to get, gather new information,
and we're going to glean new information about
their abilities that may be important to the
(23:39):
way that we interact with them.
And we need to embrace that.
We can't just resist it.
Even though, you know, just saying the way
things we're, you know, the way we're doing
things now is the easy way isn't good
enough.
Another thing I keep thinking about as you're
talking, Erin, is we're acknowledging that the dogs
(24:00):
in our lives, the cats, the horses, the
pigs, the whatever, the zoo animals, they're captive
and they might not be captive in the,
and I'm speaking very general here, they might
not be captive in the traditional sense of
a zoo, but they're in our houses and
they're confined within our boundaries and they get
(24:20):
fed what they are fed because their humans
selected that at the time that the humans
selected it, like this is their world.
And I'm thinking, as you're talking about an
advertisement piece from a company called Apple, and
the ad goes, those who think they're crazy
(24:41):
enough to change the world are often those
they do and how that can relate to
what we do, because for our animals, their
world is their captive space and their captive,
all the choices we make and all of
the restrictions that are placed upon them within
(25:02):
that captive space.
So we've got to be crazy enough to
think that we can change that world.
Because I was so curious, and I didn't
know whether to ask it or not, but
you answered my question already, as to what
is your bigger picture here?
How are you trying to change the world?
And you said it, you do want the
paradigm shift, right?
I would love to be able to walk
(25:25):
down the street with my dog and people
respect her space as much as they respect
mine.
I don't want them to be petting her.
I feel like everyone has a right to
bodily autonomy.
You know, I want people to think about
the interactions they're having with their dogs at
home and, you know, asking them whether they
(25:47):
consent to various interactions, whether it's, you know,
grooming, or whether it's just cuddling, or whatever
that interaction may be.
But I mean, I see all over the
internet, and I'm sure most of you do
too, all kinds of videos where there's so
many violations of that happening.
(26:08):
And it's really concerning, to say the very
least, I think.
And so I think as much as the
great thing about the animal training community or
the dog training community is that we can
be that that medium, we can be that
spokesperson for a better communication system with our
(26:31):
dogs.
And because we're the ones going into people's
homes and helping them with that relationship, and
ultimately talking to them about communication and things
like, you know, does your dog actually have,
you know, fair choices?
Or are we forcing choices on them?
(26:53):
Are we leveraging our food and attention and
love for their obedience and compliance?
Or are we offering them lots of opportunity
for positive reinforcement?
And are we offering them lots of agency
to say yes and no or walk away
from a situation?
Well, thank you for taking all of the
(27:15):
different tricks or puzzles out of the box
and trying to put them together and being
crazy enough to think that you can change
the world.
And maybe the crazy piece for everyone listening
and for the layman is something you have,
and I don't like that I said that,
(27:35):
like that sounds judgmental and critical of the
average pet owner.
I don't really like that term, layman, but
those who, you know, just have different life
experiences and don't know what we know and
haven't experienced what we've experienced.
But I think everyone, once they know better,
generally speaking, wants to do better.
(27:55):
That's what I mean when I say that.
But the piece that we need to be
crazy enough about is to be better critical
thinkers.
Is that resonating?
Better critical thinkers and better activists, I think.
And when you say activists, because just for
those who didn't listen to part one, can
(28:17):
you define that?
Yes.
So really, I mean, so advocating for their
well-being, I think, is putting the dog
first.
So centering the dog and maybe decentering the
human a little bit in that situation.
And that we're saying we need to consider
their perspective and their point of view and
(28:39):
understand that we're already coming from a position
of dominance and that we need to think
about, I guess, advocate for our dog's needs
and putting those needs first, or at first
as much as we can.
(29:00):
Because obviously, every relationship has two people or
two beings, right?
So the dog and the human.
And I'm not saying that the human doesn't
matter.
All I'm saying is that we're already centered
in this.
Our needs are already always put first over
the dog.
(29:21):
There's lots of situations where we can put
the dog's needs first and foremost.
So thinking about things from a dog first
perspective.
So I guess as an activist, it just
means that we are being the ones to
educate the public in a nonjudgmental way, hopefully,
(29:43):
in a way that inspires them and empowers
them to have a better relationship with their
dog.
Awesome.
Thank you for sharing that.
And I'm going to acknowledge that we are
like 30 minutes in and I haven't even
asked you the questions that I told you
that I was going to ask you.
So I'm going to do that.
(30:06):
Okay.
Because I do really want to talk about
it.
But in saying that, I'm going to say,
before I do, you've said that one thing
you've done in this book, because if you
take the human, and you say this back
to me in a more correct way, I
(30:27):
butchered this a little bit, but the human
definition of consent is something you mentioned earlier
involving a contractual agreement.
And so what you've done is you've tried
to see things from the dog's perspective and
redefine that from that perspective and came up
(30:50):
with, is this correct, the canine indexed definition
of consent?
And can you please describe to everyone what
that is?
Yes.
So the index definition of consent is, again,
just consent from the dog's perspective.
So considering their ability to communicate and what
(31:12):
that looks like.
So I came up with five subcategories for
this definition, so that we can kind of
think about the various types of interactions that
we have with our dogs and how consent
may apply in those different situations.
So, and again, like, so consent should be
(31:35):
about assent and dissent within that interaction.
So it's about agreeing, or agreeing to participate,
or saying, I don't agree to participate.
And so that can be communicated through either
their natural body language that they use in
everyday conversations.
(31:58):
Or it can be through a learned consent
behavior where we teach them that they can
have control over what's happening to them by
agreeing or offering a consent behavior, sometimes called
an opt-in behavior.
Or by either saying, I don't consent or
withdrawing that consent at any time by teaching
(32:21):
them an opt-out behavior or withdrawal behavior.
And I do think that it's very important
to mention here that that opt-out behavior
should be taught with lots of reinforcement as
well.
So we want to make sure that that
behavior is well learned, as well as the
(32:45):
opt-in behavior, so that we're not just
sort of leveraging that interaction by saying, if
you opt in, I'm going to pay really
well.
But, you know, they don't maybe necessarily fully
understand that opting out is an option for
them.
And so I see this happen a lot
in cooperative care.
And I just think that's an important distinction
(33:06):
to make.
But to come back to your question about
what it means, the indexed definition of consent,
the first one is touch or interaction consent.
So this is the one that we probably
most often think about, which is just those
petting interactions.
Are they consensual?
(33:26):
Or are they not consensual?
Because I think oftentimes we'll see people ignoring
their dogs who are saying no thanks, or
their dog is just tolerating those interactions, or
we're not taking the opportunity to ask if
they consent to that interaction.
And I think that's a very important, you
(33:47):
know, important thing that we can easily teach
our clients.
And, you know, that we either allow the
dog to come to us, we don't go
to them.
And this is my rule for all dogs.
Personally, I, I'm not ever going to be
one to not ask first.
I usually almost always let them just come
(34:09):
to me if they want that interaction.
I may ask on occasion, but that's most
often my default.
And then things like never approaching them when
they're doing something else, because they don't have
the proper information or time to process that
information to know that that interaction is coming
or and to offer that consent, or withdrawal
(34:30):
of consent.
And then just having an ongoing conversation.
I know lots of people like to use
the term consent test.
But I like to think of it as
this conversation that we're having with our dogs
where we might pause just to check in
with them, or we might see that they
are starting to disengage a little bit and
(34:52):
say, Okay, I'm just going to back off.
Or, you know, what is it that you're
looking for?
Maybe you don't want me to touch your
ears, but you want me to touch somewhere
else.
So always having that sort of ongoing conversation.
And then the second would be in cooperative
care.
So it's my second subcategory.
(35:12):
And I think this is, I talked quite
a bit about this in the book about,
again, like I mentioned earlier about making sure
that we're not leveraging that opt in behavior.
So it's about teaching a behavior that essentially
says they're ready to begin a more invasive
hands on procedure.
(35:34):
So it might be things like medical care,
like vaccinations, it might be eye drops, it
might be grooming or nail trims, it might
be, you know, those kinds of anything that's
like, maybe something that isn't just petting.
And I use it for almost everything with
my dog.
(35:55):
And we have to also know that we're
ready to say, Okay, if you don't want
to do this, we'll come back to it
another time.
So just knowing that they can or maybe
want to not want to participate at that
moment, and that we're not leveraging that participation
by only offering rewards for participating.
(36:15):
But I also actually offer equally enticing things
for not participating so that I know that
they are genuinely wanting to engage.
And I would say honestly, 95% of
the time my dog, regardless of whether I'm
using the same treats or not for both
(36:37):
interacting or not interacting or consenting or not
consenting, she will often she will volunteer to
participate because she genuinely enjoys that interaction with
me and is comfortable with that interaction.
Because she also knows she has the choice
to end that interaction at any point that
she feels uncomfortable with it.
(36:59):
So lots of I have a list of
considerations about ethical considerations when we're doing cooperative
care as well, like setup, environment, reinforcement contingencies,
those kinds of things that I think are
really important to consider to make sure that
we are being fair in our in our
(37:21):
interactions.
Because I have seen, like I said, lots
of times when like videos of people that
putting on the internet of people doing cooperative
care, but really only the opt-in behaviors
learned or a stationing behavior, or a chin
rest behavior is learned.
But they don't truly have the ability to
(37:44):
walk away from that fairly, unless they're feeling
uncomfortable, which I don't think is the best.
I don't want to wait until my dog
is feeling stressed out to opt out.
If that makes sense.
The third one is activity consent, which seems
a little bit obvious, I think.
(38:05):
And it can be but also I think
when we're talking about activities, like maybe playing
or doing agility or going for a walk,
that they are wanting to participate in that
interaction.
And of course, if they don't want to,
it could be indicating that, you know, they're
just tired, or maybe they are feeling painful,
(38:27):
or whatever the situation, it gives us information,
further information that we may want to investigate.
But I think we do need to consider
that.
Because oftentimes, we are leveraging, again, that interaction,
like we have a dog who's maybe obsessed
with playing fetch, and we are continually throwing
a ball for them.
(38:48):
Are they truly, you know, are they feeling
that they're compelled to continue that interaction?
Because they, I mean, they obviously want to,
but is that, you know, is that are
they really consent?
I guess it's a challenging one for me.
But I think like, I guess what I'm
trying to say is that we are if
(39:11):
we took that ball away, would they still
want to continue playing that game?
Or would they go do something else?
Right?
Are we leveraging that interaction with them, or
that activity by offering something that's so enticing
that they feel like they can't say no.
Then the fourth is consent-based learning.
(39:31):
So, I talk a lot about two, kind
of two components, I think.
So, one is that obviously, they have the
right to walk away from learning interactions, and
know that they do.
And that we are offering them as much
choice and autonomy in those training interactions as
we can.
(39:51):
So, but also considering that even if we're
using positive reinforcement, that we could still potentially
be being coercive in that situation, if we
again, are leveraging that reward, or that reinforcement.
So, if we're saying, you only get these
(40:11):
delicious treats, if you participate in doing this
behavior, then we are not offering them a
fair choice.
Protect, particularly if we're talking about things like
deprivation, maybe we withhold their breakfast so that
they are, quote unquote, more motivated to perform
(40:33):
what we want them to perform.
So, I think we need to be thinking
about whether it's truly something they want to
be engaged in, or if we're actually coercing
them into that situation, regardless of whether we're
using something aversive, or something positive.
(40:53):
The other thing is teaching them skills in
order to communicate consent or withdrawal of consent.
So, part of this would be those learned
behaviors in cooperative care.
So, teaching them about opting in and opting
out, but also just teaching them to communicate
successfully.
So, they're really, really great at reading our
(41:16):
referential signals and understanding our body language in
a lot of ways.
So, we need to also be able to
read their body language and understand their communicative
signals in a way that shows them that
they are understood.
Because I think that what I'm seeing a
(41:39):
lot of is dogs, their consent is constantly
being violated.
And so, they learn just sort of to
be apathetic in those situations, or they just
tolerate those interactions.
And they're not, they stop communicating.
So, I think we need to foster that
communication system all the time so that they
(42:02):
know that they could use it successfully to
communicate their needs and their wants.
And then the last one is substitutive consent.
So, my definition of this, and so, I
kind of, I think, adapted this from Donaldson
(42:22):
and Kim Licka's book, Zoopolis, where they talk
about, it's sort of a political animal rights
theory of bringing dogs more, or other animals
more into our worldview, and considering them as
citizens.
And in doing so, that they are still
dependent on us to a degree.
(42:44):
So, we need to be in the same
capacity that we would for perhaps a child
or a human who is not able to
be fully informed in some situations that we
can consent on their behalf.
If we're doing that, I think we need
to be very mindful and careful about how
(43:07):
we're evaluating the choices that we're making and
the decisions that we're making.
So, I really think that this is applicable
in things like those emergency situations, where we
can't necessarily say, hey, you know, Juno, if
you have this, if you have this surgery,
you're going to live a life that's hopefully
(43:29):
pain-free, and you're going to be healthy
and happy.
If you don't have it, you're going to
suffer.
I'm going to make that decision for her,
because I have that information, and I can
use my gift of forethought in order to
make her life better.
And so, I'm obviously going to do that.
(43:50):
But I can also think about ways of
asking for consent as well.
So, it doesn't necessarily have to be like
everything that happens during that interaction is forced.
And it doesn't have to be something that
is unpleasant.
I think there's lots of ways that we
(44:10):
can do things in the least intrusive way
possible and prepare them as well.
So, just as an example, two years ago,
Juno did have a splenectomy, and she was
quite ill before that.
And there were lots of tests that we
had to do.
(44:30):
And I couldn't really say to her, well,
she obviously couldn't understand the, you know, the
full capacity of what was happening, or why
it was happening.
But there were lots of things that we
could do.
She could consent for the injection for her
(44:52):
sedation, for example.
We could make sure that she was sedated
immediately.
She could fall asleep listening to music in
the car where she was very comfortable.
And she could wake up with me right
there as they reversed her sedation.
So, there was definitely those things that we
could do to lessen the stress that she
(45:13):
was experiencing during that interaction.
So, just because we're doing something that they
might not consent to, or they might, who
knows, if they have all of that information,
it doesn't mean that we can't be mindful
about the way that we're interacting with them
in those circumstances that surround the bigger picture.
(45:38):
Amazing.
I didn't realise.
You go, what were you going to say?
I was just going to say that that
was the last one.
Well, I didn't, again, full disclosure everyone, I
haven't read the book yet, didn't realise it
was such a comprehensive definition.
So, gratitude for spending the time doing the
(46:04):
mahi, as we say here in New Zealand,
Erin, doing the work and looking through all
the literature, thinking hard, having conversations, no doubt,
with lots of different people and putting that
together into something accessible for everyone else to
get curious about.
(46:27):
And that is, do I understand it based
on the conversation you and I had when
we caught up last week?
One of the outcomes that you're hopeful for
in terms of this book is getting that
critical thinking, getting questions for people to think
about critically, and getting them curious about the
(46:48):
topics in your book.
And you can't see Erin, everyone, but she's
sitting there nodding away.
Do you know in the background on the
couch, peacefully snoring his head off by the
looks of it?
Oh, he just looked up as I said
that.
And therefore, I think it's a good segue
into what are the things you want people
(47:09):
to get curious about?
I believe you've come up with kind of
five main ideas you wanted people to really
think and get curious about after reading your
book.
Yeah, so I think the first one I
had written down was what you just pretty
much mentioned was the how we can think
more critically about our ethical interactions and what
(47:30):
that might look like, and how we can
improve, because we're always learning, and we're always
gathering new information.
And we're always able to improve those interactions.
So thinking about how we can be more
ethical, and how we ought to be treating
(47:50):
our dogs.
The second is the topic of human exceptionalism.
So we may not, I don't know, explicitly
think, well, yes, I am superior to my
dog.
But knowing or acknowledging that human exceptionalism is
very deep seated in our interactions with dogs,
(48:14):
and in just in our understanding of or
thinking of other animals, generally, in society, and
just understanding that that's part of our inherent
makeup, and that understanding it can lessen the
bias, I think that we that we have
or that we carry.
Also, how we can better center dogs in
(48:38):
society.
I think as, as our culture expands, and
our urbanization grows, and our laws around dogs
change, and the population of companion dogs grows,
we get more and more restrictive of what
(48:58):
they can and cannot do.
And that equates to the control that we
take over them.
And so I think we need to start
to think about ways that they can be
part of our society, rather than just part
of our homes.
But part of our whole world view.
(49:22):
And to lead into the next one would
be that everyone has the right to bodily
autonomy, that it should be our default, that
we don't just grope or grab dogs, particularly
dogs that we don't know.
And I hope that that's adopted by society,
more generally.
(49:43):
And I think it's interesting for me in
my limited experience with street dogs is that
they are they have the ability to interact
or not in very, they have a lot
of autonomy or agency around that ability to
just walk away if someone tries to go
and touch them.
But our dogs don't, they're literally tied to
(50:05):
us, and we will stop and talk to
someone and almost offer them up as like,
yes, of course you can pet them.
And so they have very diminished agency even,
I think even in, you know, Juno's situation
where I try to offer her lots of
agency, she's still attached to me by a
(50:26):
leash.
I mean, that's still, you know, her agency
is still conditional on my desire to give
her that agency.
So that's something to think about, I guess.
And I guess, how can we have a
bigger impact on the well-being of our
(50:49):
dogs?
How can we create an environment that considers
their perspective and their needs and their desires
and evaluating their continually fluctuating motivations?
And I just want to see people embrace
(51:12):
the natural behaviors that dogs have, and be
okay with the fact that dogs can sometimes
disagree with us, and that if they growl
at us, they're simply communicating with us and
telling us perhaps that they don't appreciate what
is happening to them in that moment, and
(51:34):
that that's okay.
So I think those would probably be my
top five, although there's just a lot to
choose from.
There is, and I could continue this conversation
because I'm enjoying it so much, and I
feel like we're just scratching the surface of
so many different, or rabbit holes are passing
(51:55):
by, rabbit holes, whatever the best way to
say that would be.
But you listening, if you're still driving and
listening to this podcast, I'm no doubt you're
getting to the end of your drive, or
your dishes are probably pretty clean by now.
So I think we've nearly hit an hour,
we should think about wrapping up.
(52:16):
And I see a new question, and it's
a question that I love to ask all
of our guests, but I often come to
the end of the podcast episode and realize
that the whole episode, and sometimes, and as
is the case in this time, both episodes
have already answered this question, and that is
what you want to see happen in the
(52:36):
next five to ten years.
So I'm curious therefore, Erin, and because I've
said that to you in advance, and maybe
you have something that you would like to
share here, and I don't want to say
don't share it if you do, you're more
than welcome to, but I'm just curious maybe
if we can modify that question just a
little bit and think about the listeners of
this show after having listened to this episode
(52:56):
who may or may not have read your
book, or maybe they're partway through your book,
but what is it as practitioners going out,
and I know we've got a lot of
different people that listen to this podcast, but
let's say for those who are working with
clients in some capacity, what would you like
to say to them about your paradigm shift,
(53:21):
the change that you're trying to make in
this world?
What do you want to say to everyone?
Well, I mean, that's a good question.
I think that I would love, I love
seeing, I should say, I love seeing so
many, even if you don't think of yourself
in this capacity, that I love seeing so
(53:43):
many dog activists in this industry, and I
think, first of all, you're doing a fantastic
job advocating for the well-being of your
dog clients, and to, I guess, continue to
think about how you can better engage the
(54:04):
human part of this relationship to motivate them
to want to embrace these ideas, because it's
a very big change to the way they
think about dogs.
Perhaps you're somewhere else in this journey of
thinking about dogs and the human-dog relationship,
(54:25):
but, and everybody's going to, even your clients
are going to be at different starting points.
However, I do think that very few of
them have ever thought about whether their dogs
can or should consent, and so if you're
just bringing up the idea, it could be
(54:47):
a really big, kind of shocking thing for
them to take in.
So, I think we need to be mindful
that we're breaking it down in a way
that shows them how important it is, and
how much it will benefit their relationship with
(55:08):
their dog, because ultimately, that's what they want,
is to have a strong and happy and
healthy relationship with their dog, and so I
think when we phrase it in that way,
that's when we're going to have the biggest
impact.
That is a perfect place, I feel, to
wrap up part two of our conversation.
(55:29):
Thanks so much, Erin, for joining us and
sharing all of your insights and from parts
from your journey and your knowledge with us.
Before you say goodbye, though, just remind everyone
listening, please, where they can go to find
out more about your work, get in touch,
(55:49):
find you on social media, etc.
etc.
Yes, so my website is meritdogproject.com.
You can find my links to my books,
as well as articles, podcasts, all of that
stuff, and services, etc., or you can find
me on Facebook.
It's at Merit Dog Project.
(56:09):
Fantastic, and we will, of course, link to
all of us in the show notes.
So from everyone listening, Erin, and from myself,
thank you again.
So much gratitude to for hanging out with
us here at Animal Training Academy.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
I've had a great time.
And thank you so much for listening, as
(56:29):
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
(56:53):
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them, and
keep improving.
And don't forget, the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership, where you will find a community of
(57:16):
trainers just like you.
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome, and remember, every interaction with an animal
or human learner is your opportunity to create
(57:38):
ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host Ryan Carledge and I'm passionate
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Here at ATA we understand that navigating the
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(00:27):
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It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
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Therefore, since 2015 we've been on a mission
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We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
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Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
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And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
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you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
And what led her to write her first
book, Constructing Canine Consent, which we're going to
talk more about today.
However, if you haven't listened to that episode
(01:52):
yet, you are of course welcome to start
here with part two, where you're still going
to gain plenty of insights to help you
on your journey to have your biggest positive
impact on the lives of all the animals
and human learners that you work with.
So let's dive in.
Just to start with, we'll reintroduce Erin Jones,
who is an independent scholar, content editor for
(02:15):
the IAABC Foundation Journal, international speaker and educator,
and as mentioned, author.
She holds a PhD in human animal studies,
a MS in anthrozoology, a BS with honours
in psychology and anthropology, and researches and writes
about the ethical dimensions of the dog-human
(02:36):
relationship.
Erin is also a certified dog behaviour consultant
and accredited dog trainer with the IAABC, a
certified professional dog trainer with the CCPDT, and
accredited animal behaviour consultant with Cairns.
Her new book, Constructing Canine Consent, is available
in bookstores worldwide, and her other publications are
(03:00):
available to access on her website, www.meritdogproject
.com.
So Erin, thank you so much for coming
back to hang out with us again on
the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
Thanks for having me, I'm excited.
Yeah, I'm excited to talk about your book
today, and just to be fully transparent with
(03:22):
everyone, I haven't had the chance to read
it yet.
That word yet is important, unfortunately, but I
plan to do so soon.
The reason I wanted to have Erin on
the show, the reason I wanted to have
you on the show, Erin, even before I've
had the chance to go through your book,
is because numerous ATA members have reached out
to me directly to share their thoughts.
(03:44):
They've told me how much they've enjoyed it,
how much they're looking forward to reading it,
and how eager they are to learn more
from you.
So here we are.
So how about you start off by telling
the listeners a little bit about your new
book and how it came about?
Sure, so my new book, Constructing Canine Consent,
is about constructing a canine-indexed definition of
(04:05):
consent, which I'm sure we'll talk more about.
How it came about is, well, interesting.
It was sort of an evolution.
It wasn't necessarily something that I set out
to do initially, but when I started my
PhD journey, I was interested in the idea
(04:27):
or the topic or the questions about how
people thought about consent, whether it applies to
our dogs, and how it can apply to
our dogs.
And as I mentioned when I was speaking
with you before, that my dog Juno was
a massive influence in the way that I
(04:48):
was thinking about these questions.
She was a very fearful puppy, and I
really wanted to consider her agency and her
choices in my behavior intervention plans for her
as she was growing up.
And so that got me thinking about how
I can get her to understand about consent
(05:13):
and or withdrawal of consent, and be able
to communicate that successfully with me, and how
I can foster that in our relationship.
And so that sort of seeped into my
thesis proposal, and into my investigation with dog
(05:34):
owners and other dog trainers as well.
And it was definitely an interesting, I mean,
the more I thought about it, the more
convoluted it was.
It was simply, it wasn't simply, you know,
this cut and dry, we ask for consent,
they give it to us, we pet them
kind of thing.
(05:55):
There were just so many ethical questions around
those interactions that we're having, and whether they're
fair, whether the choices we're offering them are
fair choices to be to be offering.
And considering we're, you know, and we'll get
into all those details.
(06:15):
But I just, I guess I got to
this point where I thought, wow, I have
more questions than I do answers.
And that continued to snowball, where I had
more and more questions about it.
But those questions were really important to me,
because it was about thinking about our relationship
in a different way.
(06:36):
So it was about asking difficult questions that
may not have answers, but that can make
me think about that relationship more critically.
And honing in on those critical thinking skills
was a really big part of this for
me.
And interestingly enough, I did think about writing
a book, I wasn't thinking about writing a
(06:59):
book specifically on the topic of consent, because
that was only a small part of my
PhD thesis.
But when I was nearing the end of
my PhD journey, I still had a couple
of months left, I had the editor from
Taylor and Francis, which is the publication company,
(07:21):
contact me.
She had been speaking with a friend of
mine who was writing a book for her,
and they had somehow gotten on to the
topic of consent.
And she suggested contacting me about this, because
she thought it would make a really great
book.
And so we had our meeting.
(07:42):
And I was super excited, but a little
bit nervous, because I'd obviously never written a
book before, although I did write a thesis,
which was 300 plus pages, the same thing,
I guess.
And but and I definitely wanted to, it
just wasn't something I had, I wasn't there
yet in my journey, I wasn't really thinking
(08:02):
about that yet.
But that I decided to do it.
And so I really kind of took the
chapter that I had written on consent in
my thesis and expanded it.
She wanted just a short book on the
topic.
And that's kind of what I did.
But I also wanted to write about the
(08:25):
ethical questions about consent, not just like how
it's applicable, or not just like the mechanics
of it, although that's part of it.
I really wanted to ask those questions about,
well, can they always consent?
And what if they can't consent?
What then?
How do we navigate those situations?
(08:46):
And are our dogs actually autonomous?
Or are they not because they are living
under human care and control?
So as much as some of those questions
were slightly painful, and difficult to think about,
they became increasingly important and all play into
(09:07):
how I've constructed a canine indexed definition of
consent.
Thanks for sharing all of that.
And I feel like you were talking about
my podcast show when you said that you've
always got more questions than you have answers
for.
So I've got a lot of questions written
down.
But I'm curious about the editor's interest in
(09:32):
a book on consent, and how the title
has resonated with our audience and whether this
topic of consent has always been of interest,
will always be of interest, or is consent
really relevant to now, in terms of how
the culture of our specific community, and when
(09:55):
I say our specific community, what I mean
is a community of trainers, people interested in
behavior, who focus on positive reinforcement, and have
been since the 60s in the use of
positive reinforcement in zoos, Karen Pryor's contribution, clicker
(10:17):
training, to where we are in 2024.
Is consent a topic of interest now?
Or has it always been that way?
And do you think it's always going to
be?
Or are we in the space now where
we're really starting to explore this more, and
it's more relevant now now that it hasn't
been relevant?
Do you understand my question?
I do understand your question.
(10:37):
And I think, yeah.
So I think it sort of became apparent
to me anyway, in the last maybe 10
years, where, I mean, I think there's always
been some elements of the ideas behind consent,
when we're talking about things like cooperative care,
for example, or we're talking about voluntary cooperation,
(11:00):
when we're talking about positive reinforcement, and, you
know, creating behavior change through choice, those kinds
of topics have been around for a while.
But putting that together in an idea about
consent, I think is relatively new, especially when
it comes to other animals.
(11:21):
I mean, it's a difficult topic in and
of itself, even when we're talking about humans,
whether they have the capacity to consent or
not, we're talking about children, or maybe people
with diminished mental capacity, you know, there's a
lot of debate around that in the academic
world.
And so applying the idea of consent to
(11:43):
non-human animals is definitely, I think, a
relatively, I mean, there was very little literature
about it.
That's for sure.
And so I think it's a very new
concept in that sort of exploration of how
it could apply to our relationships with other
(12:08):
animals.
But like I said, I think it's been
there, and it's definitely a word that I
had heard before going into all this.
It's definitely not something I, you know, I
just conjured up.
It was definitely like I heard about consent
behaviors, for example, in cooperative care, consent tests,
and our interactions with other animals.
(12:30):
And I've always advocated for lots of, you
know, freedom to communicate in those regards.
But I think in how it's applied, I
think it's just starting to come together now.
Well, can you give us a brief literature
review of what you found in the literature
(12:53):
and what were for you some of the
most insightful pieces of literature that you found?
Yeah, so I think for me, it was
about pulling the pieces together.
So looking at literature on, for example, autonomy
in other animals was something that I looked
(13:15):
at pretty significantly.
And so there's sort of two sides to
the coin.
There are other animals autonomous if they, A,
are living under human control.
And even if they're not living under human
control, some people believe that they need the
ability to reason in order to be fully
(13:36):
autonomous.
And so they argue that other animals aren't
fully autonomous for that reason.
But I would argue that that's not the
case.
And there's certainly arguments like Lori Gruen, for
example, in Entangled Empathies, her book Entangled Empathies
is a really great read.
And Donaldson and Kimlica wrote a book called
(13:57):
Zoopolis, which I absolutely love.
And, you know, they'll talk about how other
animals absolutely can be autonomous, that they are
making decisions about and choices about their lives
in a way that matters to them, then
they have the ability to be autonomous.
And I would argue that our dogs do
(14:17):
have the ability to be autonomous, although they're
not fully autonomous, because they are, I don't
want to say are captives, but they are
living in our homes under our control.
And so we design their environment for them,
we design the choices that are available to
them in many ways.
And we micromanage their lives, even things like
(14:39):
going to the bathroom, or who they get
to play with, and when and where they
get to eat, and those kinds of things.
So they're not fully autonomous.
So I think that that part of the
literature was an important piece of the puzzle.
And then talking about things like choice, there's
lots of interesting literature about improved optimism for
(15:02):
animals who have greater choice, although I do
recognize that much of that literature comes from
captive animal settings, which is a bit ironic,
I think, because they don't truly have choice,
but offering them some different choices, definitely improved
their positive welfare in those situations.
(15:26):
And so, yeah, I think those were the
two main things that I kind of tied
together with this idea of consent.
And then looking at the literature on consent
itself was a bit helpful, but also I
wanted to construct it in a way that
wasn't human centered.
So as I was reading through literature about
(15:47):
consent in and of itself, or the idea
of informed consent is which what most people
think of when they're thinking about consent, it
was all very, very specifically human.
And so it made me think more of
and and when I was doing my own
research, a lot of the roadblocks that I
found people faced when thinking about whether consent
(16:09):
applied to dogs, was that they were thinking
about it in very specifically human terms, like,
well, we can't, they can't, you know, read
and write.
So how could they enter this legally binding
contract with us about and consent to these
things.
And so I really, I, it took me
(16:30):
down the path of well, why can't we
then take the perspective of dogs and create
a definition of consent that's applicable to their
realities and their specific capabilities and abilities.
And so that's, I guess, where I ended
up with constructing this and then going down
and taking pieces of information from the cognitive
(16:52):
behavioral research that's out there about, you know,
their experiences and their point of view of
the world, or what we talked about in
the first podcast about their umbels, about their,
their sense, their, how they sense their environment
and their unique ability to navigate their environment
in a way that's inherently theirs.
(17:14):
And so, obviously, we don't know everything, but
there is a great deal that we do
know about their abilities and capabilities.
And so we can understand about their body
language, for example, and that can absolutely mean
that there's no reason why a fully functioning
adult dog couldn't consent and communicate in their
(17:37):
own way, just because they can't communicate the
same way that humans do doesn't mean that
they can't communicate at all.
It just means that we are too dumb
to fully understand.
And so that is a limitation for us.
And so we have to recognize that we
have that bias or that limitation, and therefore
(17:58):
try to create one that is something that
we that can be a two way communication
between dogs and humans that we can understand,
and that they can try, they can tell
us when they consent or withdraw that consent,
and that we can understand those communication signals.
So there's a, it was interesting to bring
(18:19):
together so much literature, because I was kind
of pulling from all of these different fields
of study, which is a really big challenge
in and of itself, because each of those
different fields of study have their own theories
and their own language that they use.
And so bringing it all together in a
(18:41):
cohesive way, isn't easy.
It is what I did in my, my
PhD thesis as well.
So I did have a bit of practice
with it, but it's, it's definitely a challenge
in that you have to kind of bring
it together to make it sound like you're
not, you know, to make it sound like
it, it all fits together.
(19:02):
Which is, yeah, it can be really hard,
but I think I, I hope I did
an alright job with it.
Well, I, can I share something with you?
Yes.
I, I use artificial intelligence and chant GPT
a lot for lots of different things.
And I like playing with it and exploring
things of it.
And some of the terms we used about
(19:23):
and talked about, sorry, in part one, human
exceptionalism, I wasn't super familiar with.
So I like to ask artificial intelligence, like
that was a question, which is beneficial for
me.
And it's embarrassing to share it, but it's
like, Hey, take, take this thing that Erin
shared and explain it to me like I
(19:44):
was a five-year-old.
And it like really simplifies things.
And, and I really liked there that you
said, you are trying to make it all
fit together.
Cause this is what chat GPT told me,
right.
And tell me that Erin has like a
toy box.
And in this toy box is all of
these different jigsaw puzzles.
Some are square, some are circle, some are
(20:05):
triangle.
And it would seem that you can only
make these individual jigsaws.
But what you're suggesting is that you can
take all of the individual jigsaw puzzles and
put them together and create something brand new.
Yes.
I love that.
And, but it's hard, it's hard to conceptualize
(20:25):
that doesn't fit together necessarily that easily because
it's not something that I had, I just
read a book about, you know, dog consent
and I was like, oh yeah, that makes
sense.
I had to piece it all together myself,
but also like learning about the theories and
maybe different social sciences and then behavioral sciences
(20:47):
and, you know, animal, animal rights theories and
the literature around that, which was a big,
definitely a big part of, of my research
is, is based on the, those philosophical readings
or, you know, those, those theories based in
philosophy.
(21:08):
Because I truly think, especially when you're sort
of on the dawning of something relatively new
or a new concept or a paradigm shift
is what I like to think of it
as, you know, we've kind of reached this,
this place in our understanding of other animals
where we can start to, to make this
shift into a new way of, of being
(21:28):
with them in a similar way that maybe
we've done, you know, that we've done in
the past with other parallels of oppression that
we've experienced.
You know, we kind of get to this
point where like, okay, we need to make
a shift and it's a process.
It's not something that happens overnight, but it's
some, and it's not easy.
It's not, it's change is very difficult for
(21:50):
all of us.
And especially when we have to conceptualize something
in a new way, when we've been doing
it one way for a long time and
it seemed to be fine.
And it seemed to be fine for us,
but it wasn't necessarily fine for the other
party.
So I'm hoping that this is a paradigm
shift.
(22:11):
That's like my aim for everything, I think.
And, and so I definitely concede that I
do have a lot of questions that may
not have answers, but they may never have
answers either.
They may just be questions that we ask
to think about things in a different perspective
(22:32):
or a different way.
And I think asking those questions, even if
they're somewhat rhetorical questions, are a really important
part of that process.
And I recognize that it is a process
because for me, it's been a lifelong process
and I didn't just start here, you know,
overnight.
It's been a journey for me.
(22:55):
And I look back to even what I
knew three or four years ago, and I
know a lot more now than I did
then.
And that's always evolving.
And that's the same with science, right?
We're always coming out with new information that
can help us in gaining a better understanding
of the way our dogs operate.
(23:16):
And so I definitely say that in my,
I think it's my last chapter that, hey,
look, you know, this definition is kind of
a jumping off point for us.
It may change slightly over the years because
we are going to get, gather new information,
and we're going to glean new information about
their abilities that may be important to the
(23:39):
way that we interact with them.
And we need to embrace that.
We can't just resist it.
Even though, you know, just saying the way
things we're, you know, the way we're doing
things now is the easy way isn't good
enough.
Another thing I keep thinking about as you're
talking, Erin, is we're acknowledging that the dogs
(24:00):
in our lives, the cats, the horses, the
pigs, the whatever, the zoo animals, they're captive
and they might not be captive in the,
and I'm speaking very general here, they might
not be captive in the traditional sense of
a zoo, but they're in our houses and
they're confined within our boundaries and they get
(24:20):
fed what they are fed because their humans
selected that at the time that the humans
selected it, like this is their world.
And I'm thinking, as you're talking about an
advertisement piece from a company called Apple, and
the ad goes, those who think they're crazy
(24:41):
enough to change the world are often those
they do and how that can relate to
what we do, because for our animals, their
world is their captive space and their captive,
all the choices we make and all of
the restrictions that are placed upon them within
(25:02):
that captive space.
So we've got to be crazy enough to
think that we can change that world.
Because I was so curious, and I didn't
know whether to ask it or not, but
you answered my question already, as to what
is your bigger picture here?
How are you trying to change the world?
And you said it, you do want the
paradigm shift, right?
I would love to be able to walk
(25:25):
down the street with my dog and people
respect her space as much as they respect
mine.
I don't want them to be petting her.
I feel like everyone has a right to
bodily autonomy.
You know, I want people to think about
the interactions they're having with their dogs at
home and, you know, asking them whether they
(25:47):
consent to various interactions, whether it's, you know,
grooming, or whether it's just cuddling, or whatever
that interaction may be.
But I mean, I see all over the
internet, and I'm sure most of you do
too, all kinds of videos where there's so
many violations of that happening.
(26:08):
And it's really concerning, to say the very
least, I think.
And so I think as much as the
great thing about the animal training community or
the dog training community is that we can
be that that medium, we can be that
spokesperson for a better communication system with our
(26:31):
dogs.
And because we're the ones going into people's
homes and helping them with that relationship, and
ultimately talking to them about communication and things
like, you know, does your dog actually have,
you know, fair choices?
Or are we forcing choices on them?
(26:53):
Are we leveraging our food and attention and
love for their obedience and compliance?
Or are we offering them lots of opportunity
for positive reinforcement?
And are we offering them lots of agency
to say yes and no or walk away
from a situation?
Well, thank you for taking all of the
(27:15):
different tricks or puzzles out of the box
and trying to put them together and being
crazy enough to think that you can change
the world.
And maybe the crazy piece for everyone listening
and for the layman is something you have,
and I don't like that I said that,
(27:35):
like that sounds judgmental and critical of the
average pet owner.
I don't really like that term, layman, but
those who, you know, just have different life
experiences and don't know what we know and
haven't experienced what we've experienced.
But I think everyone, once they know better,
generally speaking, wants to do better.
(27:55):
That's what I mean when I say that.
But the piece that we need to be
crazy enough about is to be better critical
thinkers.
Is that resonating?
Better critical thinkers and better activists, I think.
And when you say activists, because just for
those who didn't listen to part one, can
(28:17):
you define that?
Yes.
So really, I mean, so advocating for their
well-being, I think, is putting the dog
first.
So centering the dog and maybe decentering the
human a little bit in that situation.
And that we're saying we need to consider
their perspective and their point of view and
(28:39):
understand that we're already coming from a position
of dominance and that we need to think
about, I guess, advocate for our dog's needs
and putting those needs first, or at first
as much as we can.
(29:00):
Because obviously, every relationship has two people or
two beings, right?
So the dog and the human.
And I'm not saying that the human doesn't
matter.
All I'm saying is that we're already centered
in this.
Our needs are already always put first over
the dog.
(29:21):
There's lots of situations where we can put
the dog's needs first and foremost.
So thinking about things from a dog first
perspective.
So I guess as an activist, it just
means that we are being the ones to
educate the public in a nonjudgmental way, hopefully,
(29:43):
in a way that inspires them and empowers
them to have a better relationship with their
dog.
Awesome.
Thank you for sharing that.
And I'm going to acknowledge that we are
like 30 minutes in and I haven't even
asked you the questions that I told you
that I was going to ask you.
So I'm going to do that.
(30:06):
Okay.
Because I do really want to talk about
it.
But in saying that, I'm going to say,
before I do, you've said that one thing
you've done in this book, because if you
take the human, and you say this back
to me in a more correct way, I
(30:27):
butchered this a little bit, but the human
definition of consent is something you mentioned earlier
involving a contractual agreement.
And so what you've done is you've tried
to see things from the dog's perspective and
redefine that from that perspective and came up
(30:50):
with, is this correct, the canine indexed definition
of consent?
And can you please describe to everyone what
that is?
Yes.
So the index definition of consent is, again,
just consent from the dog's perspective.
So considering their ability to communicate and what
(31:12):
that looks like.
So I came up with five subcategories for
this definition, so that we can kind of
think about the various types of interactions that
we have with our dogs and how consent
may apply in those different situations.
So, and again, like, so consent should be
(31:35):
about assent and dissent within that interaction.
So it's about agreeing, or agreeing to participate,
or saying, I don't agree to participate.
And so that can be communicated through either
their natural body language that they use in
everyday conversations.
(31:58):
Or it can be through a learned consent
behavior where we teach them that they can
have control over what's happening to them by
agreeing or offering a consent behavior, sometimes called
an opt-in behavior.
Or by either saying, I don't consent or
withdrawing that consent at any time by teaching
(32:21):
them an opt-out behavior or withdrawal behavior.
And I do think that it's very important
to mention here that that opt-out behavior
should be taught with lots of reinforcement as
well.
So we want to make sure that that
behavior is well learned, as well as the
(32:45):
opt-in behavior, so that we're not just
sort of leveraging that interaction by saying, if
you opt in, I'm going to pay really
well.
But, you know, they don't maybe necessarily fully
understand that opting out is an option for
them.
And so I see this happen a lot
in cooperative care.
And I just think that's an important distinction
(33:06):
to make.
But to come back to your question about
what it means, the indexed definition of consent,
the first one is touch or interaction consent.
So this is the one that we probably
most often think about, which is just those
petting interactions.
Are they consensual?
(33:26):
Or are they not consensual?
Because I think oftentimes we'll see people ignoring
their dogs who are saying no thanks, or
their dog is just tolerating those interactions, or
we're not taking the opportunity to ask if
they consent to that interaction.
And I think that's a very important, you
(33:47):
know, important thing that we can easily teach
our clients.
And, you know, that we either allow the
dog to come to us, we don't go
to them.
And this is my rule for all dogs.
Personally, I, I'm not ever going to be
one to not ask first.
I usually almost always let them just come
(34:09):
to me if they want that interaction.
I may ask on occasion, but that's most
often my default.
And then things like never approaching them when
they're doing something else, because they don't have
the proper information or time to process that
information to know that that interaction is coming
or and to offer that consent, or withdrawal
(34:30):
of consent.
And then just having an ongoing conversation.
I know lots of people like to use
the term consent test.
But I like to think of it as
this conversation that we're having with our dogs
where we might pause just to check in
with them, or we might see that they
are starting to disengage a little bit and
(34:52):
say, Okay, I'm just going to back off.
Or, you know, what is it that you're
looking for?
Maybe you don't want me to touch your
ears, but you want me to touch somewhere
else.
So always having that sort of ongoing conversation.
And then the second would be in cooperative
care.
So it's my second subcategory.
(35:12):
And I think this is, I talked quite
a bit about this in the book about,
again, like I mentioned earlier about making sure
that we're not leveraging that opt in behavior.
So it's about teaching a behavior that essentially
says they're ready to begin a more invasive
hands on procedure.
(35:34):
So it might be things like medical care,
like vaccinations, it might be eye drops, it
might be grooming or nail trims, it might
be, you know, those kinds of anything that's
like, maybe something that isn't just petting.
And I use it for almost everything with
my dog.
(35:55):
And we have to also know that we're
ready to say, Okay, if you don't want
to do this, we'll come back to it
another time.
So just knowing that they can or maybe
want to not want to participate at that
moment, and that we're not leveraging that participation
by only offering rewards for participating.
(36:15):
But I also actually offer equally enticing things
for not participating so that I know that
they are genuinely wanting to engage.
And I would say honestly, 95% of
the time my dog, regardless of whether I'm
using the same treats or not for both
(36:37):
interacting or not interacting or consenting or not
consenting, she will often she will volunteer to
participate because she genuinely enjoys that interaction with
me and is comfortable with that interaction.
Because she also knows she has the choice
to end that interaction at any point that
she feels uncomfortable with it.
(36:59):
So lots of I have a list of
considerations about ethical considerations when we're doing cooperative
care as well, like setup, environment, reinforcement contingencies,
those kinds of things that I think are
really important to consider to make sure that
we are being fair in our in our
(37:21):
interactions.
Because I have seen, like I said, lots
of times when like videos of people that
putting on the internet of people doing cooperative
care, but really only the opt-in behaviors
learned or a stationing behavior, or a chin
rest behavior is learned.
But they don't truly have the ability to
(37:44):
walk away from that fairly, unless they're feeling
uncomfortable, which I don't think is the best.
I don't want to wait until my dog
is feeling stressed out to opt out.
If that makes sense.
The third one is activity consent, which seems
a little bit obvious, I think.
(38:05):
And it can be but also I think
when we're talking about activities, like maybe playing
or doing agility or going for a walk,
that they are wanting to participate in that
interaction.
And of course, if they don't want to,
it could be indicating that, you know, they're
just tired, or maybe they are feeling painful,
(38:27):
or whatever the situation, it gives us information,
further information that we may want to investigate.
But I think we do need to consider
that.
Because oftentimes, we are leveraging, again, that interaction,
like we have a dog who's maybe obsessed
with playing fetch, and we are continually throwing
a ball for them.
(38:48):
Are they truly, you know, are they feeling
that they're compelled to continue that interaction?
Because they, I mean, they obviously want to,
but is that, you know, is that are
they really consent?
I guess it's a challenging one for me.
But I think like, I guess what I'm
trying to say is that we are if
(39:11):
we took that ball away, would they still
want to continue playing that game?
Or would they go do something else?
Right?
Are we leveraging that interaction with them, or
that activity by offering something that's so enticing
that they feel like they can't say no.
Then the fourth is consent-based learning.
(39:31):
So, I talk a lot about two, kind
of two components, I think.
So, one is that obviously, they have the
right to walk away from learning interactions, and
know that they do.
And that we are offering them as much
choice and autonomy in those training interactions as
we can.
(39:51):
So, but also considering that even if we're
using positive reinforcement, that we could still potentially
be being coercive in that situation, if we
again, are leveraging that reward, or that reinforcement.
So, if we're saying, you only get these
(40:11):
delicious treats, if you participate in doing this
behavior, then we are not offering them a
fair choice.
Protect, particularly if we're talking about things like
deprivation, maybe we withhold their breakfast so that
they are, quote unquote, more motivated to perform
(40:33):
what we want them to perform.
So, I think we need to be thinking
about whether it's truly something they want to
be engaged in, or if we're actually coercing
them into that situation, regardless of whether we're
using something aversive, or something positive.
(40:53):
The other thing is teaching them skills in
order to communicate consent or withdrawal of consent.
So, part of this would be those learned
behaviors in cooperative care.
So, teaching them about opting in and opting
out, but also just teaching them to communicate
successfully.
So, they're really, really great at reading our
(41:16):
referential signals and understanding our body language in
a lot of ways.
So, we need to also be able to
read their body language and understand their communicative
signals in a way that shows them that
they are understood.
Because I think that what I'm seeing a
(41:39):
lot of is dogs, their consent is constantly
being violated.
And so, they learn just sort of to
be apathetic in those situations, or they just
tolerate those interactions.
And they're not, they stop communicating.
So, I think we need to foster that
communication system all the time so that they
(42:02):
know that they could use it successfully to
communicate their needs and their wants.
And then the last one is substitutive consent.
So, my definition of this, and so, I
kind of, I think, adapted this from Donaldson
(42:22):
and Kim Licka's book, Zoopolis, where they talk
about, it's sort of a political animal rights
theory of bringing dogs more, or other animals
more into our worldview, and considering them as
citizens.
And in doing so, that they are still
dependent on us to a degree.
(42:44):
So, we need to be in the same
capacity that we would for perhaps a child
or a human who is not able to
be fully informed in some situations that we
can consent on their behalf.
If we're doing that, I think we need
to be very mindful and careful about how
(43:07):
we're evaluating the choices that we're making and
the decisions that we're making.
So, I really think that this is applicable
in things like those emergency situations, where we
can't necessarily say, hey, you know, Juno, if
you have this, if you have this surgery,
you're going to live a life that's hopefully
(43:29):
pain-free, and you're going to be healthy
and happy.
If you don't have it, you're going to
suffer.
I'm going to make that decision for her,
because I have that information, and I can
use my gift of forethought in order to
make her life better.
And so, I'm obviously going to do that.
(43:50):
But I can also think about ways of
asking for consent as well.
So, it doesn't necessarily have to be like
everything that happens during that interaction is forced.
And it doesn't have to be something that
is unpleasant.
I think there's lots of ways that we
(44:10):
can do things in the least intrusive way
possible and prepare them as well.
So, just as an example, two years ago,
Juno did have a splenectomy, and she was
quite ill before that.
And there were lots of tests that we
had to do.
(44:30):
And I couldn't really say to her, well,
she obviously couldn't understand the, you know, the
full capacity of what was happening, or why
it was happening.
But there were lots of things that we
could do.
She could consent for the injection for her
(44:52):
sedation, for example.
We could make sure that she was sedated
immediately.
She could fall asleep listening to music in
the car where she was very comfortable.
And she could wake up with me right
there as they reversed her sedation.
So, there was definitely those things that we
could do to lessen the stress that she
(45:13):
was experiencing during that interaction.
So, just because we're doing something that they
might not consent to, or they might, who
knows, if they have all of that information,
it doesn't mean that we can't be mindful
about the way that we're interacting with them
in those circumstances that surround the bigger picture.
(45:38):
Amazing.
I didn't realise.
You go, what were you going to say?
I was just going to say that that
was the last one.
Well, I didn't, again, full disclosure everyone, I
haven't read the book yet, didn't realise it
was such a comprehensive definition.
So, gratitude for spending the time doing the
(46:04):
mahi, as we say here in New Zealand,
Erin, doing the work and looking through all
the literature, thinking hard, having conversations, no doubt,
with lots of different people and putting that
together into something accessible for everyone else to
get curious about.
(46:27):
And that is, do I understand it based
on the conversation you and I had when
we caught up last week?
One of the outcomes that you're hopeful for
in terms of this book is getting that
critical thinking, getting questions for people to think
about critically, and getting them curious about the
(46:48):
topics in your book.
And you can't see Erin, everyone, but she's
sitting there nodding away.
Do you know in the background on the
couch, peacefully snoring his head off by the
looks of it?
Oh, he just looked up as I said
that.
And therefore, I think it's a good segue
into what are the things you want people
(47:09):
to get curious about?
I believe you've come up with kind of
five main ideas you wanted people to really
think and get curious about after reading your
book.
Yeah, so I think the first one I
had written down was what you just pretty
much mentioned was the how we can think
more critically about our ethical interactions and what
(47:30):
that might look like, and how we can
improve, because we're always learning, and we're always
gathering new information.
And we're always able to improve those interactions.
So thinking about how we can be more
ethical, and how we ought to be treating
(47:50):
our dogs.
The second is the topic of human exceptionalism.
So we may not, I don't know, explicitly
think, well, yes, I am superior to my
dog.
But knowing or acknowledging that human exceptionalism is
very deep seated in our interactions with dogs,
(48:14):
and in just in our understanding of or
thinking of other animals, generally, in society, and
just understanding that that's part of our inherent
makeup, and that understanding it can lessen the
bias, I think that we that we have
or that we carry.
Also, how we can better center dogs in
(48:38):
society.
I think as, as our culture expands, and
our urbanization grows, and our laws around dogs
change, and the population of companion dogs grows,
we get more and more restrictive of what
(48:58):
they can and cannot do.
And that equates to the control that we
take over them.
And so I think we need to start
to think about ways that they can be
part of our society, rather than just part
of our homes.
But part of our whole world view.
(49:22):
And to lead into the next one would
be that everyone has the right to bodily
autonomy, that it should be our default, that
we don't just grope or grab dogs, particularly
dogs that we don't know.
And I hope that that's adopted by society,
more generally.
(49:43):
And I think it's interesting for me in
my limited experience with street dogs is that
they are they have the ability to interact
or not in very, they have a lot
of autonomy or agency around that ability to
just walk away if someone tries to go
and touch them.
But our dogs don't, they're literally tied to
(50:05):
us, and we will stop and talk to
someone and almost offer them up as like,
yes, of course you can pet them.
And so they have very diminished agency even,
I think even in, you know, Juno's situation
where I try to offer her lots of
agency, she's still attached to me by a
(50:26):
leash.
I mean, that's still, you know, her agency
is still conditional on my desire to give
her that agency.
So that's something to think about, I guess.
And I guess, how can we have a
bigger impact on the well-being of our
(50:49):
dogs?
How can we create an environment that considers
their perspective and their needs and their desires
and evaluating their continually fluctuating motivations?
And I just want to see people embrace
(51:12):
the natural behaviors that dogs have, and be
okay with the fact that dogs can sometimes
disagree with us, and that if they growl
at us, they're simply communicating with us and
telling us perhaps that they don't appreciate what
is happening to them in that moment, and
(51:34):
that that's okay.
So I think those would probably be my
top five, although there's just a lot to
choose from.
There is, and I could continue this conversation
because I'm enjoying it so much, and I
feel like we're just scratching the surface of
so many different, or rabbit holes are passing
(51:55):
by, rabbit holes, whatever the best way to
say that would be.
But you listening, if you're still driving and
listening to this podcast, I'm no doubt you're
getting to the end of your drive, or
your dishes are probably pretty clean by now.
So I think we've nearly hit an hour,
we should think about wrapping up.
(52:16):
And I see a new question, and it's
a question that I love to ask all
of our guests, but I often come to
the end of the podcast episode and realize
that the whole episode, and sometimes, and as
is the case in this time, both episodes
have already answered this question, and that is
what you want to see happen in the
(52:36):
next five to ten years.
So I'm curious therefore, Erin, and because I've
said that to you in advance, and maybe
you have something that you would like to
share here, and I don't want to say
don't share it if you do, you're more
than welcome to, but I'm just curious maybe
if we can modify that question just a
little bit and think about the listeners of
this show after having listened to this episode
(52:56):
who may or may not have read your
book, or maybe they're partway through your book,
but what is it as practitioners going out,
and I know we've got a lot of
different people that listen to this podcast, but
let's say for those who are working with
clients in some capacity, what would you like
to say to them about your paradigm shift,
(53:21):
the change that you're trying to make in
this world?
What do you want to say to everyone?
Well, I mean, that's a good question.
I think that I would love, I love
seeing, I should say, I love seeing so
many, even if you don't think of yourself
in this capacity, that I love seeing so
(53:43):
many dog activists in this industry, and I
think, first of all, you're doing a fantastic
job advocating for the well-being of your
dog clients, and to, I guess, continue to
think about how you can better engage the
(54:04):
human part of this relationship to motivate them
to want to embrace these ideas, because it's
a very big change to the way they
think about dogs.
Perhaps you're somewhere else in this journey of
thinking about dogs and the human-dog relationship,
(54:25):
but, and everybody's going to, even your clients
are going to be at different starting points.
However, I do think that very few of
them have ever thought about whether their dogs
can or should consent, and so if you're
just bringing up the idea, it could be
(54:47):
a really big, kind of shocking thing for
them to take in.
So, I think we need to be mindful
that we're breaking it down in a way
that shows them how important it is, and
how much it will benefit their relationship with
(55:08):
their dog, because ultimately, that's what they want,
is to have a strong and happy and
healthy relationship with their dog, and so I
think when we phrase it in that way,
that's when we're going to have the biggest
impact.
That is a perfect place, I feel, to
wrap up part two of our conversation.
(55:29):
Thanks so much, Erin, for joining us and
sharing all of your insights and from parts
from your journey and your knowledge with us.
Before you say goodbye, though, just remind everyone
listening, please, where they can go to find
out more about your work, get in touch,
(55:49):
find you on social media, etc.
etc.
Yes, so my website is meritdogproject.com.
You can find my links to my books,
as well as articles, podcasts, all of that
stuff, and services, etc., or you can find
me on Facebook.
It's at Merit Dog Project.
(56:09):
Fantastic, and we will, of course, link to
all of us in the show notes.
So from everyone listening, Erin, and from myself,
thank you again.
So much gratitude to for hanging out with
us here at Animal Training Academy.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
I've had a great time.
And thank you so much for listening, as
(56:29):
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
(56:53):
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them, and
keep improving.
And don't forget, the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership, where you will find a community of
(57:16):
trainers just like you.
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome, and remember, every interaction with an animal
or human learner is your opportunity to create
(57:38):
ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
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