October 7, 2024 • 50 mins
In this fun two-part episode of the Animal Training Academy podcast, we sit down with Simone Mueller, MA, a certified dog trainer and behavior consultant from Germany. Simone specializes in force-free anti-predation training and is the acclaimed author of the Predation Substitute Training series. In this first part of our conversation, Simone shares her journey from being a high school teacher to becoming a leading expert in anti-predation training. We dive deep into her early experiences with her dog, Malinka, whose high prey drive sparked Simone’s interest in positive reinforcement training methods.
Listeners will gain insight into Simone’s innovative approach to training, the challenges she faced in developing effective, humane methods for managing predatory behavior, and the unique training culture in Germany. Simone also discusses the significance of the e-collar ban in Germany and how it influenced the evolution of dog training practices in the country.
What You’ll Discover in This Episode:
- Simone's transition from high school teaching to professional dog training.
- The development of her Predation Substitute Training methods and the challenges she encountered along the way.
- Insight into the training culture in Germany and the impact of the e-collar ban on dog training practices.
- The importance of structured training plans for managing high prey drive in dogs.
Why This Episode is a Must-Listen: Simone Mueller’s expertise offers invaluable insights for dog trainers, behaviorists, and dog owners dealing with high prey drive dogs. Her experience and dedication to force-free training provide a fresh perspective on managing predatory behavior in a humane and effective way. This episode is perfect for anyone looking to deepen their understanding of positive reinforcement training and the nuances of behavior modification.
Engage With Us: We invite you to subscribe to our podcast, share this episode with fellow animal enthusiasts, and join our community for ongoing discussions on ethical training practices and animal care.
Follow Simone’s work on Facebook and Instagram:
- https://www.instagram.com/predation_substitute_training/
- https://www.facebook.com/predationsubstitutetraining
Learn more: http://www.predation-substitute-training.com
Bonus Code:
- Link to the Predation Substitute Training Master Course “Call off the Chase”: https://predation-substitute-training.com/call-off-the-chase/
- Save 150 € using the code PST150
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host Ryan Carledge and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015 we've been on a mission
to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge, and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
I will start today's episode where I'm excited
to talk to Simone Muller.
Simone is a Certified Dog Trainer and Dog
Behaviour Consultant from Germany.
She specializes in force-free anti-predation training
(01:56):
and is the author of the books of
the Predation Substitute Training Series.
Simone is proud to be an Associate Trainer
at the Scotland-based Loflorian Dog Training Club
and a member of the initiative of Force
-Free Dog Training, the Pet Professional Guild and
the Pet Dog Trainers of Europe.
(02:18):
So without further ado, it's my very great
pleasure to welcome Simone to the show today,
who's patiently waiting by on the other side
of the world.
Simone, thank you so much for taking the
time to come and hang out with us
at Animal Training Academy.
Hi Ryan, thank you very much for the
invitation.
I can't wait to learn more about what
(02:39):
you do and learn about your story.
I've seen you pop up, Simone, here, there
and everywhere on the interwebs, so it's great
to bring you into the ATA fold.
But let's get started and dive straight in,
Simone.
I love hearing about people's journeys and how
(03:02):
they got started and how they got to
where they are today.
So I was hoping you could take us
back, take us back to where you first
started to learn about training, about behavior, about
dogs and share some stories with us.
Right, I think it's quite a common story
and I guess you might have heard it
before.
It all started with my first dog.
(03:23):
It was in, oh my gosh, it was
so long ago, 2002, when I had my
first own dog.
Before that, we had a family dog, but
she was the first dog that I was
responsible for training and all the stuff that
you need to do when you are a
dog mom, basically.
So right from the start, I was pretty
(03:47):
sure that I wanted to do some training
with her and also some dog sports.
I did agility with her, which was quite
new and hot at that time, at least
in Germany.
Her name was Malinka.
When she was about two years old, 18
(04:08):
months old, she developed a crazy prey drive
and I had no idea how to deal
with that.
So this was the very first moment when
I came into contact with prey drive and
how to deal with it.
By then, there were no structured training protocols
(04:29):
out there available.
Nobody really knew how to deal with it,
especially in a positive or force-free way.
So this was quite a journey and a
challenge.
And so did you just go straight into
positive reinforcement training?
(04:49):
Did you know about that before you got
your dog or how did you first come
into contact with that kind of training?
Were you lucky enough to have missed the
bad stuff?
Yeah, I was quite lucky that in my
area, I had a person who was really
proficient at clicker training and I contacted him
(05:12):
and we talked a lot and he showed
me a lot about what you can basically
do with clicker training.
But it was all about trick training at
that time and I enjoyed trick training really
a lot with my dog.
She knew so many tricks.
So this was the first time when I
learned about positive reinforcement training.
(05:33):
Yeah, but I had no idea how to
transfer this into more behavior problems.
At that time, I didn't even know that
it was called behavior modification.
All that stuff I didn't know.
So I knew that everything was fine when
we were in the living room practicing our
tricks.
We had a lot of fun.
(05:54):
Everything was fine when we did agility or
when we were in our obedience classes.
But when I took Malinka for a walk,
which I live very rural, so we have
a lot of woodland, a lot of fields.
I always came across wildlife, deer, rabbits, and
she was out of control.
(06:16):
So the first approach was with a drag
line.
By that time, it was only known from
hunting training.
So from gundog training.
So I used a long line from hunting
supplies.
I had no real idea what to do
(06:38):
with this drag line.
So can you explain for those listening in
terms of gundog training and tell me if
I've got the incorrect place from where you
got that piece of equipment.
But what is a drag line traditionally used
for?
(06:58):
And I'm getting the sense that you kind
of just attach it to your dog and
you were thinking, now what?
Yeah, exactly.
So the German gundog training is very different
from English gundog training.
So we basically do not even call it
gundog training, but I don't know an English
word for it, where you train your hunting
(07:20):
dogs to be out with you as a
hunter in the field.
And these field leashes are mainly used for
tracking.
So when you have a deer, for example,
that was wounded by a shot, but it's
not dead yet.
And then you put a longer drag line
onto your dog that is supposed to follow
(07:41):
and track down this wounded animal.
So this is where it came from.
Yeah.
And so what happened next?
How did you figure out what your next
approximation was going to be?
So this was quite a trial and error
thing.
So I went to a couple of trainers
(08:03):
in the area.
I got a lot of tips from the
internet.
I tried some things, but there was no...
I always had the feeling that some things
were really quite useful that I was told
by other, or by dog trainers or by
dog clubs.
(08:24):
But it was not the real breakthrough because
I thought the pieces did not really fit
together.
So I got this tip here and that
tip there.
And some of them were really nonsense, but
I didn't know that at the time.
Some were really useful, but there was no
structured plan.
And the first time that I came across
(08:45):
a structured plan was a couple of years
later when I stumbled across the first book
on frost-free predation training that came out
in Germany after the ban of the e
-collars.
And this was like a light bulb moment.
I remember I read it on holidays and
I didn't have my dog with me on
holidays.
(09:05):
And I couldn't wait to come home to
put this all into practice and to give
it a try with my dog.
So this was the first breakthrough in our
training.
Well, and then from there it went pretty
quickly because after the e-collar ban in
Germany, there were quite some trainers specializing in
(09:28):
this field because now we had to come
up with some other ideas.
And then I went on workshops, some seminars,
and then eventually I decided to become a
dog trainer myself.
And so what's the timeline of this?
When was this?
The timeline?
Well, Malinka was born in 2002, so she
(09:50):
had her peak performance around 2004, 5, 6.
This was the time when I struggled most
with her predatory behavior.
And then the professional, so I started to
become a professional dog trainer in 2016.
This is when I started my dog trainer
education.
(10:10):
And in 2018, I started working as a
dog trainer.
And tell us about the e-collar ban
in Germany.
We've got people from all around the world
listening here.
Some of them might have upcoming e-collar
bans happening.
Some of them can walk a couple of,
(10:31):
I'm putting my hand up here, minutes down
the road and buy themselves an e-collar
if they want from a shop.
Not that I want or would do that.
I'm just saying that in New Zealand, that
option is still available.
This sounds like in Germany, and I didn't
know this, that the e-collar ban was
quite a while ago.
I think it was in 2008.
(10:53):
Please don't be too strict about this, but
I think it was 2008.
And e-collars were banned, prong collars, slip
leads without a stop.
These were the tools that were first banned.
So it was written down in our animal
welfare law that there should be no harm
(11:15):
inflicted on animals, no intimidation, no pain, no
fear through training methods.
And of course, in Germany, you can still
use aversive measures.
So we still have spray collars, for example,
that are legal to buy.
You can also buy e-collars on the
(11:35):
internet from other European countries because of the
free market, but you cannot put them on
your dog.
So the moment you put them on your
dog, it's illegal.
So people get used to it.
In the beginning, there was, of course, an
outcry, how to deal with this behavior or
that behavior or whatever.
(11:57):
But now, I hardly ever come across anybody
who uses them illegally.
It's only some niches where they still exist,
but the majority of dog owners, it's simply
not in their awareness anymore to use those
tools.
It spares me as a dog trainer, a
(12:19):
lot of discussions and conversations and a lot
of energy because I see from colleagues in
other countries that work without e-collars, that
they always have to justify, always have to
discuss.
And this takes up a lot of energy
and time for you as a human being.
(12:40):
So I think it's really tiring to have
this discussion over and over and over again.
And I'm really lucky here because I simply
don't have this discussion.
It doesn't come up.
It's not an option anymore.
And yeah.
Well, that must be nice.
It is.
It's quite relaxing and gives you peace of
mind.
(13:00):
I guess as an internationally known individual, your
social media feed would be connected with people
from around the world.
So this kind of stuff must still pop
up in your social media feed, would it?
Or does the algorithm like, no, no, she's
from Germany.
(13:22):
It still pops up from now and then.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I still think about it and I
have already posted a couple of stuff online
about e-collars and from the German perspective
or from the German legal perspective, why are
they problematic?
So yeah, I'm still confronted with this, but
(13:45):
not on a daily basis.
So when I have my clients in Germany
and they come because their dog is hunting
and I ask them what have you tried
in the past?
It almost never comes up.
How about your, because we're going to catch
up to where you're up to now and
what you're doing in 2024, but just to
share before we get there, just in case
(14:07):
you don't know Simone's work as a listener
of this show, you're dealing with an international
audience now.
So the focus that you have on predation
training, would I be right in assuming that
internationally there are different tools used by different
individuals for the problems that present from dogs
(14:30):
with high prey drive?
Yeah, I guess so.
So I can only talk about my method
that I have developed now.
So this is, yeah, I always look left
and right what other people develop, but only
in the spectrum of force-free dog training
and reward-based dog training.
(14:53):
Must be similar to me.
Well, from what you're saying, it sounds like
you might be similar to me.
I don't want to use that word must
and assume anything, but we have a lot
of horse trainers that are members of Animal
Training Academy, but I've got nothing to do
with anything but positive reinforcement horse trainers.
(15:14):
So it sounds kind of like you're the
same.
Obviously, you know, these things are going on
out there, but you're not attracting that with
your work.
And sounds like you've got plenty to keep
you busy throughout your day.
So you're not going out looking for those
things as well.
I'm curious about Germany.
I'm trying to think back as I'm talking
(15:35):
to you, how many guests we've had on
our show from Germany.
I can think of one.
And now I feel bad because there's probably
more and I'm forgetting them.
And I'm sorry if you're listening and that's
you, please let me know because I don't
want to do that again.
But I'm sure you can appreciate a lot
of our guests, Simone.
(15:56):
I'm from North America, Australia, New Zealand, Canada,
England.
But can you share with the listeners of
the show what the training culture is like
in general in Germany?
And I mean, I know that you, as
I ask this question, can't share what it's
(16:17):
like in comparison to being somewhere else because
you've only got your one experience.
But the majority of people speak English, obviously.
And so access to information is, I would
assume, equally accessible.
Yeah.
So what does training look like in Germany?
Well, we have a lot of dog schools,
(16:40):
but we also have a lot of dog
clubs.
I guess you know that a lot of
dog breeds come from Germany.
So we have been quite some dog enthusiasts
for the last 250 years.
And there is a long tradition of dog
training in Germany, I guess.
So when you think about hunting, when you
(17:02):
think about Schutzhund, all this stuff was quite
developed here in Germany, at least our lines.
And so we have a very rich tradition.
So almost every little, I wouldn't say village,
but little town has their own dog training
club where you can just go with your
dog and you get some basic obedience training,
(17:25):
puppy training.
And then the major dog sports like agility,
obedience, APG, I don't know what it is
in English, the Schutzhund sports.
So this is very, very common.
And for us dog trainers, of course, this
is the challenge because the regular dog owner
does not know about how much work you
(17:48):
have to put into your education.
So they compare prices, you know.
So they see that when you have a
private dog school, it's much more expensive than
when you go to the local dog club.
And for the majority of dogs, it's totally
fine to go to a dog club.
But then again, when you have some special
effects in your dog, so behavior problems, the
(18:10):
dog clubs are often not the right source
to get the training.
So yeah, you can simply swap over to
a dog school.
And we have plenty of them now here
in Germany.
So what part have dogs played in German's
history?
Have they traditionally been hunting sport companions or
(18:33):
have they for a long time been companions
that families have?
And what's the culture there like in terms
of, oh, there's a dog, I don't know.
I'm going to go up and touch it.
Yeah.
So you hardly have that in Germany.
It's so weird.
When I was in the UK or in
the US, it's even worse.
(18:55):
Everybody is like, oh, can I pet your
dog?
And I was like, why would you come
over and pet my dog?
So this hardly ever happens to you in
Germany.
But you see dogs in all the public
places.
They are everywhere.
You see them in all the restaurants.
I don't know if any, yeah, maybe some
(19:15):
restaurants are not, the dogs are not allowed,
but in general, it's not a problem to
take your dog into the restaurant.
You see them on the Christmas markets, for
example.
This is where my heart always sinks because
those poor dogs are within the crowds in
the freezing cold, standing there with their owners
because they want to have a molded wine
or something like that.
(19:36):
So dogs are everywhere in Germany.
You can even take them to the malls.
The only places where they are not allowed
are supermarkets and pharmacies.
But in my pharmacy here in my place,
they have a sign in the summer outside
saying, you can't bring your dog into our
(19:57):
pharmacy.
Don't leave your dog in the hot car.
So it's, they're everywhere.
Sometimes when it's raining and I don't know
what to do with my dogs, then I
take them to the mall.
So we just go window shopping together and
yeah, that's it.
So yeah, I think most dogs in Germany
(20:18):
now are family dogs.
I think I don't have any numbers, but
I would guess it's 90% or even
more.
It's not allowed to tether your dog anymore
outside.
So this has been banned too.
You can have them in a kennel, but
the kennel has to be huge.
There are legal requirements for a kennel.
Yeah.
This is basically how dogs live in Germany,
(20:40):
in the house, not in a little, what
is it called?
The box that you use inside the house.
A crate.
A crate.
Exactly.
So crating is not very common here.
It becomes more and more popular, but it's
basically also not allowed.
So interesting.
I didn't know any of this about Germany
(21:02):
before talking to you.
So very different, very different to New Zealand
and very different.
I can appreciate some parts of the world.
Hey, I'm probably going to have more questions
about Germany because I'm pretty interested in everything
you've been sharing, but going back to your
journey, there's a pretty big gap between 2008,
(21:24):
I think, to 2016.
What were you doing in that period?
What were you doing?
I was a high school teacher.
So I studied to be a high school
teacher and I started teaching in 2009.
And so how did the transition happen?
(21:46):
What made you decide?
Yeah.
So first of all, it was just only
for my own dogs.
So I will never, ever teach anything, not
take money for anything.
I only do this for my own dogs
and this changed very quickly.
So yeah, I decided that I wanted to
(22:09):
do something besides teaching, not that I wasn't
busy enough, but I always need something else
to keep my mind busy.
And I was interested in dog training, did
a lot of workshops before that, did a
lot of seminars.
So I thought I could also start a
dog trainer education.
And I did this in 2016 when I
(22:31):
was still working full time at the school.
And the dog trainer course lasted for two
years.
And after that, I took three months off
from my teaching job and I went to
the UK on a European scholarship.
The UK was by then still illegible for
European scholarship.
(22:51):
So that has changed now, unfortunately.
So I went to Scotland to La Flore
and Dog Services, to Claire Staines, to do
some practical training with her.
And this was amazing.
So it was a very great time.
I had one of my dog that I,
Nanook, Malinka was not alive then anymore.
She had passed away in 2017, I think,
(23:16):
or 18, beginning of 18.
And in the summer of 2018, I took
Nanook, took my car, packed the car, threw
Nanook into the car, and then we drove
to Scotland.
And there I spent three months learning from
Claire Staines.
And yeah, it was just a wonderful time
in Scotland.
I feel like, I have no data on
(23:37):
this, but it's just anecdotal based on Ryan's
memory, which as a listener of this podcast,
you probably shouldn't trust.
But there are a lot of people who
make a transition.
I mean, not a lot, but if you
had to get the jobs that people were
doing before they became dog trainers or animal
(23:59):
trainers, maybe they're not working specifically with dogs.
I feel like there would be a pretty
big part of the pie that were teachers.
That's interesting.
I'm curious, as a high school teacher, you
said high school teacher, right?
Were you using things from dog training in
(24:20):
your classrooms?
I started doing this, but to be honest,
it's more the other way around.
That today when I teach, I don't so
much teach dogs, I more teach the people.
And I use a lot of methods, methodology
from teaching when I do workshops or when
(24:44):
I do online classes or also one-to
-one training.
So this helps me a lot.
I have a concept in my head, how
to structure a lesson, what do I need
to explain at which point so that it
makes sense to the listener or to the
reader.
And I think I benefit a lot from
this 10 years experience.
(25:06):
Can you give me an example and then
I ask my other question.
A practical example now.
One thing that comes into my mind is
when I was at a conference and it
was only at this conference that I realized
from the first two or three speakers that
(25:29):
I was supposed to do something interactive with
the audience.
And I had prepared a talk, basically, and
I was like, okay, panic.
And then I thought about what can I
do here in my presentation to make it
more interactive?
And I thought about a method that I
(25:50):
used as a teacher a lot, which goes
really quickly.
So you don't lose a lot of time,
but you still make people think.
It's called think, pair, share.
You give the instruction that everybody thinks for
a minute about a question for themselves.
Then they talk to their neighbor as a
pair, and then they share with everybody.
(26:11):
And so you get really quick, like a
highlight from each table where the audience is
sitting.
So I thought, okay, I can do this
here and here and here.
And then I changed my presentation quickly into
a more interactive style.
So this was just one little example where
(26:31):
this came in handy.
Interesting.
Hold these thoughts.
Let's jump back to 2016.
Wrong.
2016.
And you decided to make the switch from
teaching to full-time dog training?
(26:53):
Oh, no, not that yet.
So I first thought I would only do
it for myself.
And then I thought, okay, I might do
it for one evening per week or something
like this.
And it only happened after my daughter was
born that I decided not going back.
Ah, right.
Is that because when your daughter was born,
(27:14):
you took some time off from work, and
that gave you some new insights about, some
new reflections about what you wanted.
And your daughter is now three years old.
Is that right?
So to talk us through what's happened since
then.
And was that an easy decision or was
that quite, I imagine it's quite stressful.
(27:36):
Yeah.
So after I started training in 2018, it
was quite stressful because I was working full
-time at the school.
And when you're a teacher, of course you
stop in the afternoon, but then in the
evening you have to do your preparations and
markings and stuff like that.
(27:57):
So it's not that you are completely done
after you finish school.
So this was quite stressful because I first
had just two or three clients, then it
became more.
And so I had to really think about
what to do because I just had a
little limited time left for dog training.
(28:21):
Then I thought about reducing some hours, some
teaching lessons, doing less teaching and doing more
dog training.
But then COVID came and this changed everything.
So basically we had the schools closed for
a couple of weeks.
(28:41):
We did a lot of online teaching with
the students, but I also had a lot
of time left.
And this is when I started writing my
books.
So I basically wrote them during COVID, the
first two books.
And then after COVID, when everything went back
to normal, I had my daughter and I
(29:03):
dropped out completely.
So suddenly everything was very abnormal again, bringing
a child into your life.
Yeah.
But it was an easier transition than just
deciding, now I'll have to stop teaching and
make a leap.
So the transition was easier for me because
it was gradually and I could build up
my business because you cannot just stop one
(29:27):
thing without having the other one build up.
You have to make a living off something.
Kids are expensive as is life.
Exactly.
So 2000 and I'm jumping back and forth
here.
I'm just trying to understand how your journey
(29:47):
happened in terms of where you ended up.
And we haven't talked about that yet, but
a lot of you probably know Simone, so
you know where this is going.
But 2002 with Malinka and when she was
two years old, she started to show some
predatory behaviours 22 years later with some teaching
(30:09):
and some experiences and some books being read
and some training and making the transition.
You're now specialising in what you call predation
substitute training.
So that experience with Malinka, are we right
then in concluding that even though there's a
(30:30):
22 year gap there or 20 years from
when Malinka started showing those behaviours, that inspiration,
that experience in 2004 never left you and
that's why you're focused on this now?
Or is it unrelated that you ended up
focusing on the thing that Malinka was presenting
you with 20 years ago?
(30:51):
No, it was not a coincidence.
So I always find this, once I started
to do some research on this behaviour, I
found it so fascinating because it presents so
different in very different dogs.
And yeah, so I have always been fascinated
(31:11):
by predatory behaviour and I have done a
lot of workshops on this, even though Nanook,
the dog that came after Malinka and Isla,
they are not very predatory.
When there comes a deer, they run after
the deer for a couple of metres and
they come back.
So it's not a real struggle for me
anymore with predatory behaviour with my own dogs,
(31:32):
but I still have this interest.
And whenever I had the opportunity to learn
something about this, I did because it was
just like a hobby for me.
This is making a little bit more sense
now, I think, because look at, and this
is only one person's perception, which is mine,
(31:54):
but if I look at 2024 and Susan
Freeman's going, you've got to get Simone Muller
on your podcast, Ryan, and I'm seeing you
all over my socials and you at these
conferences and I'm like, Simone is obviously putting
out really great information.
(32:14):
It's great to understand your teaching background and
to understand that you have the skill set
at packaging information in accessible ways for people.
And then I'm thinking that it makes sense
that, because I go, well, 2020 when COVID
hit and then you had your daughter and
you made this transition, I mean, that's a
(32:35):
small time frame to suddenly have this global
reach.
That's amazing and congratulations, but it's kind of
making more sense because it wasn't that you
did all of that in three or four
years.
It was that you had been preparing for
that for 20 years and then suddenly, yeah,
(33:00):
without knowing, but suddenly your environment and the
opportunities that came out of really intense situations
like COVID came together.
But with you sharing your story now, it
makes sense.
I was going to say, how does my
(33:21):
reflections on what you shared with us land
with you?
Yeah.
So the first time that I really had
this moment of realization that these protocols that
exist in Germany do not exist internationally was
when I had a conversation with Claire in
(33:41):
Scotland.
So we talked about a lot of things
and then she said, we can tackle all
behavior problems with positive training, but not predation.
And in my head, I was like, don't
you like the training protocols or what?
And then we suddenly found out that they
(34:02):
are not out there, not accessible in English.
And this is when I thought, whoa, maybe
we can do something about that.
And then what did you do?
I wrote a book.
Yeah.
So you've asked your journey over the last
three, four years.
Yeah.
So this was when I wrote the first
book, Hunting Together, which is it's basically a
(34:23):
workshop that I had developed for my German
clients before that.
And it gives an overview over what is
predation?
What can you do about it if you
don't want to use aversive measures?
And what are the specialties that you have
to take into consideration?
And also the basic games and exercises.
(34:44):
And it was the concept for a two
day workshop that I had done in Germany
with my clients.
So I basically put this structure into the
first book that is now Hunting Together.
So it was 20 years of preparation with
and I'm using business terminology and I'm sure
(35:05):
there's a better way to frame this, but
you saw that there was a gap in
the market and a gap in the knowledge
or information that was out there.
Is that how you were thinking?
I'm going to fill that space and that's
why I'm writing this book.
Yeah, exactly.
So when you research on how to deal
with predatory behavior, then what comes up is
(35:27):
a lot about recall training.
So if you want to work force free,
it's all about recall training.
But recall is, it is important, but it's
only a kind of safety net when things
go wrong.
And I would say that 90% of
my training happens when there is not an
(35:48):
emergency.
So with recall, we only ever prepare for
the emergency when your dog chases something.
But the real root cause of the problem
has to be tackled when there is nothing
around, when we are out with our dogs
and there is no immediate wildlife, deer, rabbit
running in front of us.
(36:08):
So this is when we work on predatory
behavior.
And yeah, so there is so much more
that you can do than just recall or
put a leash on your dog.
So you wrote the first book and then
when was that?
About 2021, I'm guessing?
2022?
Yes, exactly.
It came out during COVID.
I think it was in 2020.
(36:31):
Yeah.
And then I immediately started with the second
one because then we had the school shutdowns
and I had time.
So I took my second workshop that I
had prepared and ready to go and put
this one into a book.
And this is now Rocket Recall, which is
about recall training, but a recall that really
(36:53):
works under big distractions.
So that is designed to work even when
you come across wildlife.
And this was then the second book, basically.
And did you stop there?
No, of course not.
Then it took some time to get into
(37:16):
writing again because then I had a kid
and I was really busy doing diaper changes
and night feedings and stuff like that.
But eventually I thought I have to write
another one.
But I wasn't able to write myself because
I didn't have the time anymore to physically
sit down and type it on my computer.
So I had my head full of ideas,
(37:38):
but I didn't have the time to put
it into my computer.
This is when I met Charlotte Garner from
England and she's a copywriter for canine stuff.
So she's a very passionate dog owner herself
and she helps me with my writing.
So what we basically did is I went
(38:00):
for walks with the stroller and on these
walks with the baby in the stroller, I
spoke her some speech messages and sent them
to England and she typed it down for
me.
And this is how we wrote the second
book, Don't Eat That.
It's not about the core predatory behavior, but
something that is related when you have a
(38:22):
dog that loves to scavenge, which is also
orientation behavior that is related to predatory behavior.
It stems from the same root.
And I had a lot of people coming
to me asking me, okay, my dog is
not very chasey, but he eats everything that
we come across, gross things, rotten stuff.
(38:44):
So what can I do?
And this is why I wrote the book
on this as well.
Okay.
Are you finished?
We're around here, like 15 more books.
Would you like to leave it here now?
Yeah.
What's coming next?
So the fourth book and then we're finished
(39:04):
here with the books.
This is also a book that I wrote
with Charlotte is the latest one that just
came out this year.
It's called Walking Together.
Because when I have clients with, especially gundog
breeds or high energy breeds, they come to
my training for predatory behavior.
But every time when we are talking and
(39:27):
walking and working, then at some point it
comes up that the dog is not able
to walk on a loose leash.
And I saw this pattern in all my
clients with high prey drive dogs that I
thought long and hard about why is this
a problem with these types of dogs that
they find it so hard to walk on
a loose leash.
(39:48):
And then I talked to colleagues and I
read a lot of literature and I puzzled
together a kind of cheat training program for
those high energy, high prey drive dogs.
Because again, the root cause of the problem
is the predatory behavior.
It's something which is called predatory over arousal.
(40:11):
And I think we will talk about this
a little later in the podcast.
So they need a special approach.
They cannot just go into the next dog
training class and do some obedience training because
it doesn't transfer into the real world for
them.
And I'm sure there's more books in your
brain.
(40:35):
That as you're about to go traveling around
Canadian national parks, you'll have ideas in the
back of your head.
So this has been really enjoyable.
I've really enjoyed hearing about your story.
And the other thing I'm thinking about and
curious about is how you would describe yourself.
(40:57):
Here's how I'm seeing you.
Someone who's very, you said you always need
something to keep your mind busy.
You said in our call we had before
we recorded, this was last week before we
recorded this for the listeners of the show,
I always catch up with my guests beforehand.
You said you're very structured.
(41:19):
You want to get things in a structured
way, piece things together.
And I get the sense that you're very
curious.
I'm a dopamine victim, I guess.
So like the dogs I'm dealing with, I'm
always looking for the next dopamine rush.
And I get this from learning stuff that
(41:40):
I'm interested in, doing courses.
So yeah, very curious.
Not very structured.
If you told my husband that I'm a
structured person, he would laugh because I think
I'm a very chaotic person.
But in my job, I like to be
structured because this is the only way that
I can keep track of things.
(42:02):
So if I'm not structured, then everything will
be forgotten and gone.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think if we asked our spouses
about traits that others might see in us
in other contexts, they would laugh at many
of those labels that get placed upon us.
(42:22):
I know my wife would.
In terms of structure, I feel like working
with clients, seeing patterns, articulating those patterns with
the help of Charlotte and getting those into
a sequenced, a sequential order inside a book
that helps others.
(42:44):
Maybe one might label that as a structured
way of organizing your thoughts.
Yeah.
And especially during the last book, during the
Walking Together book, I had so many lightbulb
moments myself when I thought about various dog
breeds and what they were originally bred for
(43:06):
and what makes or what happens to them
now when they are in a family environment.
I had this somewhere in my head, but
in order to bring it onto paper, I
had to structure it really clearly.
And then sometimes it was for me even
like, wow, right, this is where this comes
from.
(43:27):
So, yeah, it really helps to get your
thoughts organized to write a book.
I can only recommend this.
Yeah.
I don't know the saying, I don't even
know if there is a saying, but I
know there's a concept that the best way
to, or maybe not the best way, but
(43:49):
a powerful way to grow your own knowledge
and to grow your own skills to teach.
Yeah.
Well, you know.
Yeah.
And also to, when you're kind of fresh
into an idea or fresh into learning something,
that's also a great time to teach it
(44:09):
because you still understand what others don't understand.
Whilst if you are 10 years into a
subject, you start to lose sight of what
it's like to be in that place of
not knowing.
Exactly.
And you have to break it down and
get back to the basics.
Yeah.
So, this really helps a lot.
(44:32):
We're all better off for it because of
your books and contributions and learning what you
guys in Germany know that we don't, but
now we do, and we haven't figured out
yet.
And share with the listeners before we wrap
up part one of this conversation with you,
Simone, what a week looks like for you
(44:52):
in 2024.
And I understand that every week is different,
but generally speaking.
What looks like for me in 2024?
A week.
What takes up your time at the moment?
Okay, good.
So, that's a very interesting question because this
changes a lot from time to time.
(45:14):
I try to do some clients here so
that I think it's really important for me
to work with dogs because this is where
I get my inspirations from.
This is where I can try my methods,
where I can try the protocols and I
(45:35):
say, okay, now I have to adjust them
a little bit.
And this is also where I come across
the problems that the people have when they
have high prey drive dogs.
And I also try not to only teach
predatory behavior.
I also take on some cases, for example,
(45:57):
dog aggression or separation anxiety if it's not
that severe.
So, I always say I'm not an expert
in this.
I try to help you because then I
also have an open mind and I have
to think about other stuff than just predatory
behavior.
So, I do some clients here more in
(46:18):
the summer than in the winter because in
the winter nobody wants to train their dogs.
It's too cold here.
And then I do a lot of work
on my computer basically.
So, preparing courses, preparing workbooks, writing my next
book, stuff like that.
So, I'm always busy.
(46:39):
Well, just before you wrap up, can you
share for those listening where they can go
online or if they live close to you
in Germany, maybe go to get personal help.
But for the majority of us, where they
can go online to find you, to see
you on social media, your website, get in
touch, do your courses, read your books, point
(47:01):
us to all of the places you'd like
the listeners to visit.
Okay.
So, of course, you can come to me
for a weekend or something.
Then we can do some training here in
the woodland.
We have a lot of wildlife here.
So, sometimes clients come to me and they
are really like, wow, how can you even
walk your dogs here?
The woods is full of deers and boars
(47:26):
and stuff like that.
So, we have a lot to train here.
But normally, you can do it from your
sofa and just go online, predationsubstitutetraining.com.
And there you can also find my newsletter.
So, you can subscribe to the newsletter if
you're interested in knowing more.
(47:47):
You can have a look at the courses
that I have at the moment.
I have a very comprehensive online course that
leads you through the whole predation substitute training,
gives you all the tools that you need
to know with your dog.
But if you just want to start learning
and do not want to spend a lot
of money in the beginning, especially, you can
(48:08):
always start with the books.
I think this is the most easy and
yet effective way to learn about force-free
predation substitute training.
You can find all the books on Amazon.
That's the easiest way to get them.
Or also from the local bookstores.
They all have an ISBN number, so you
can just get them from your local bookstore
(48:28):
if you want to support them.
Wonderful.
We will, of course, link to all of
this in the show notes for you to
listen to.
We will officially now wrap up part one
of this episode, but we're going to invite
Simone back and talk about everything predation.
Simone, this has been so much fun.
So, from myself and on behalf of everyone
(48:48):
listening, we really appreciate you coming and hanging
out with us today.
Thank you so much.
Thank you very much for the invitation.
Thank you.
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
(49:09):
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them, and
(49:30):
keep improving.
And don't forget, the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership, where you will find a community of
trainers just like you.
(49:53):
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome, and remember, every interaction with an animal
or human learner is your opportunity to create
ripples.
(50:13):
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host Ryan Carledge and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015 we've been on a mission
to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge, and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
I will start today's episode where I'm excited
to talk to Simone Muller.
Simone is a Certified Dog Trainer and Dog
Behaviour Consultant from Germany.
She specializes in force-free anti-predation training
(01:56):
and is the author of the books of
the Predation Substitute Training Series.
Simone is proud to be an Associate Trainer
at the Scotland-based Loflorian Dog Training Club
and a member of the initiative of Force
-Free Dog Training, the Pet Professional Guild and
the Pet Dog Trainers of Europe.
(02:18):
So without further ado, it's my very great
pleasure to welcome Simone to the show today,
who's patiently waiting by on the other side
of the world.
Simone, thank you so much for taking the
time to come and hang out with us
at Animal Training Academy.
Hi Ryan, thank you very much for the
invitation.
I can't wait to learn more about what
(02:39):
you do and learn about your story.
I've seen you pop up, Simone, here, there
and everywhere on the interwebs, so it's great
to bring you into the ATA fold.
But let's get started and dive straight in,
Simone.
I love hearing about people's journeys and how
(03:02):
they got started and how they got to
where they are today.
So I was hoping you could take us
back, take us back to where you first
started to learn about training, about behavior, about
dogs and share some stories with us.
Right, I think it's quite a common story
and I guess you might have heard it
before.
It all started with my first dog.
(03:23):
It was in, oh my gosh, it was
so long ago, 2002, when I had my
first own dog.
Before that, we had a family dog, but
she was the first dog that I was
responsible for training and all the stuff that
you need to do when you are a
dog mom, basically.
So right from the start, I was pretty
(03:47):
sure that I wanted to do some training
with her and also some dog sports.
I did agility with her, which was quite
new and hot at that time, at least
in Germany.
Her name was Malinka.
When she was about two years old, 18
(04:08):
months old, she developed a crazy prey drive
and I had no idea how to deal
with that.
So this was the very first moment when
I came into contact with prey drive and
how to deal with it.
By then, there were no structured training protocols
(04:29):
out there available.
Nobody really knew how to deal with it,
especially in a positive or force-free way.
So this was quite a journey and a
challenge.
And so did you just go straight into
positive reinforcement training?
(04:49):
Did you know about that before you got
your dog or how did you first come
into contact with that kind of training?
Were you lucky enough to have missed the
bad stuff?
Yeah, I was quite lucky that in my
area, I had a person who was really
proficient at clicker training and I contacted him
(05:12):
and we talked a lot and he showed
me a lot about what you can basically
do with clicker training.
But it was all about trick training at
that time and I enjoyed trick training really
a lot with my dog.
She knew so many tricks.
So this was the first time when I
learned about positive reinforcement training.
(05:33):
Yeah, but I had no idea how to
transfer this into more behavior problems.
At that time, I didn't even know that
it was called behavior modification.
All that stuff I didn't know.
So I knew that everything was fine when
we were in the living room practicing our
tricks.
We had a lot of fun.
(05:54):
Everything was fine when we did agility or
when we were in our obedience classes.
But when I took Malinka for a walk,
which I live very rural, so we have
a lot of woodland, a lot of fields.
I always came across wildlife, deer, rabbits, and
she was out of control.
(06:16):
So the first approach was with a drag
line.
By that time, it was only known from
hunting training.
So from gundog training.
So I used a long line from hunting
supplies.
I had no real idea what to do
(06:38):
with this drag line.
So can you explain for those listening in
terms of gundog training and tell me if
I've got the incorrect place from where you
got that piece of equipment.
But what is a drag line traditionally used
for?
(06:58):
And I'm getting the sense that you kind
of just attach it to your dog and
you were thinking, now what?
Yeah, exactly.
So the German gundog training is very different
from English gundog training.
So we basically do not even call it
gundog training, but I don't know an English
word for it, where you train your hunting
(07:20):
dogs to be out with you as a
hunter in the field.
And these field leashes are mainly used for
tracking.
So when you have a deer, for example,
that was wounded by a shot, but it's
not dead yet.
And then you put a longer drag line
onto your dog that is supposed to follow
(07:41):
and track down this wounded animal.
So this is where it came from.
Yeah.
And so what happened next?
How did you figure out what your next
approximation was going to be?
So this was quite a trial and error
thing.
So I went to a couple of trainers
(08:03):
in the area.
I got a lot of tips from the
internet.
I tried some things, but there was no...
I always had the feeling that some things
were really quite useful that I was told
by other, or by dog trainers or by
dog clubs.
(08:24):
But it was not the real breakthrough because
I thought the pieces did not really fit
together.
So I got this tip here and that
tip there.
And some of them were really nonsense, but
I didn't know that at the time.
Some were really useful, but there was no
structured plan.
And the first time that I came across
(08:45):
a structured plan was a couple of years
later when I stumbled across the first book
on frost-free predation training that came out
in Germany after the ban of the e
-collars.
And this was like a light bulb moment.
I remember I read it on holidays and
I didn't have my dog with me on
holidays.
(09:05):
And I couldn't wait to come home to
put this all into practice and to give
it a try with my dog.
So this was the first breakthrough in our
training.
Well, and then from there it went pretty
quickly because after the e-collar ban in
Germany, there were quite some trainers specializing in
(09:28):
this field because now we had to come
up with some other ideas.
And then I went on workshops, some seminars,
and then eventually I decided to become a
dog trainer myself.
And so what's the timeline of this?
When was this?
The timeline?
Well, Malinka was born in 2002, so she
(09:50):
had her peak performance around 2004, 5, 6.
This was the time when I struggled most
with her predatory behavior.
And then the professional, so I started to
become a professional dog trainer in 2016.
This is when I started my dog trainer
education.
(10:10):
And in 2018, I started working as a
dog trainer.
And tell us about the e-collar ban
in Germany.
We've got people from all around the world
listening here.
Some of them might have upcoming e-collar
bans happening.
Some of them can walk a couple of,
(10:31):
I'm putting my hand up here, minutes down
the road and buy themselves an e-collar
if they want from a shop.
Not that I want or would do that.
I'm just saying that in New Zealand, that
option is still available.
This sounds like in Germany, and I didn't
know this, that the e-collar ban was
quite a while ago.
I think it was in 2008.
(10:53):
Please don't be too strict about this, but
I think it was 2008.
And e-collars were banned, prong collars, slip
leads without a stop.
These were the tools that were first banned.
So it was written down in our animal
welfare law that there should be no harm
(11:15):
inflicted on animals, no intimidation, no pain, no
fear through training methods.
And of course, in Germany, you can still
use aversive measures.
So we still have spray collars, for example,
that are legal to buy.
You can also buy e-collars on the
(11:35):
internet from other European countries because of the
free market, but you cannot put them on
your dog.
So the moment you put them on your
dog, it's illegal.
So people get used to it.
In the beginning, there was, of course, an
outcry, how to deal with this behavior or
that behavior or whatever.
(11:57):
But now, I hardly ever come across anybody
who uses them illegally.
It's only some niches where they still exist,
but the majority of dog owners, it's simply
not in their awareness anymore to use those
tools.
It spares me as a dog trainer, a
(12:19):
lot of discussions and conversations and a lot
of energy because I see from colleagues in
other countries that work without e-collars, that
they always have to justify, always have to
discuss.
And this takes up a lot of energy
and time for you as a human being.
(12:40):
So I think it's really tiring to have
this discussion over and over and over again.
And I'm really lucky here because I simply
don't have this discussion.
It doesn't come up.
It's not an option anymore.
And yeah.
Well, that must be nice.
It is.
It's quite relaxing and gives you peace of
mind.
(13:00):
I guess as an internationally known individual, your
social media feed would be connected with people
from around the world.
So this kind of stuff must still pop
up in your social media feed, would it?
Or does the algorithm like, no, no, she's
from Germany.
(13:22):
It still pops up from now and then.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I still think about it and I
have already posted a couple of stuff online
about e-collars and from the German perspective
or from the German legal perspective, why are
they problematic?
So yeah, I'm still confronted with this, but
(13:45):
not on a daily basis.
So when I have my clients in Germany
and they come because their dog is hunting
and I ask them what have you tried
in the past?
It almost never comes up.
How about your, because we're going to catch
up to where you're up to now and
what you're doing in 2024, but just to
share before we get there, just in case
(14:07):
you don't know Simone's work as a listener
of this show, you're dealing with an international
audience now.
So the focus that you have on predation
training, would I be right in assuming that
internationally there are different tools used by different
individuals for the problems that present from dogs
(14:30):
with high prey drive?
Yeah, I guess so.
So I can only talk about my method
that I have developed now.
So this is, yeah, I always look left
and right what other people develop, but only
in the spectrum of force-free dog training
and reward-based dog training.
(14:53):
Must be similar to me.
Well, from what you're saying, it sounds like
you might be similar to me.
I don't want to use that word must
and assume anything, but we have a lot
of horse trainers that are members of Animal
Training Academy, but I've got nothing to do
with anything but positive reinforcement horse trainers.
(15:14):
So it sounds kind of like you're the
same.
Obviously, you know, these things are going on
out there, but you're not attracting that with
your work.
And sounds like you've got plenty to keep
you busy throughout your day.
So you're not going out looking for those
things as well.
I'm curious about Germany.
I'm trying to think back as I'm talking
(15:35):
to you, how many guests we've had on
our show from Germany.
I can think of one.
And now I feel bad because there's probably
more and I'm forgetting them.
And I'm sorry if you're listening and that's
you, please let me know because I don't
want to do that again.
But I'm sure you can appreciate a lot
of our guests, Simone.
(15:56):
I'm from North America, Australia, New Zealand, Canada,
England.
But can you share with the listeners of
the show what the training culture is like
in general in Germany?
And I mean, I know that you, as
I ask this question, can't share what it's
(16:17):
like in comparison to being somewhere else because
you've only got your one experience.
But the majority of people speak English, obviously.
And so access to information is, I would
assume, equally accessible.
Yeah.
So what does training look like in Germany?
Well, we have a lot of dog schools,
(16:40):
but we also have a lot of dog
clubs.
I guess you know that a lot of
dog breeds come from Germany.
So we have been quite some dog enthusiasts
for the last 250 years.
And there is a long tradition of dog
training in Germany, I guess.
So when you think about hunting, when you
(17:02):
think about Schutzhund, all this stuff was quite
developed here in Germany, at least our lines.
And so we have a very rich tradition.
So almost every little, I wouldn't say village,
but little town has their own dog training
club where you can just go with your
dog and you get some basic obedience training,
(17:25):
puppy training.
And then the major dog sports like agility,
obedience, APG, I don't know what it is
in English, the Schutzhund sports.
So this is very, very common.
And for us dog trainers, of course, this
is the challenge because the regular dog owner
does not know about how much work you
(17:48):
have to put into your education.
So they compare prices, you know.
So they see that when you have a
private dog school, it's much more expensive than
when you go to the local dog club.
And for the majority of dogs, it's totally
fine to go to a dog club.
But then again, when you have some special
effects in your dog, so behavior problems, the
(18:10):
dog clubs are often not the right source
to get the training.
So yeah, you can simply swap over to
a dog school.
And we have plenty of them now here
in Germany.
So what part have dogs played in German's
history?
Have they traditionally been hunting sport companions or
(18:33):
have they for a long time been companions
that families have?
And what's the culture there like in terms
of, oh, there's a dog, I don't know.
I'm going to go up and touch it.
Yeah.
So you hardly have that in Germany.
It's so weird.
When I was in the UK or in
the US, it's even worse.
(18:55):
Everybody is like, oh, can I pet your
dog?
And I was like, why would you come
over and pet my dog?
So this hardly ever happens to you in
Germany.
But you see dogs in all the public
places.
They are everywhere.
You see them in all the restaurants.
I don't know if any, yeah, maybe some
(19:15):
restaurants are not, the dogs are not allowed,
but in general, it's not a problem to
take your dog into the restaurant.
You see them on the Christmas markets, for
example.
This is where my heart always sinks because
those poor dogs are within the crowds in
the freezing cold, standing there with their owners
because they want to have a molded wine
or something like that.
(19:36):
So dogs are everywhere in Germany.
You can even take them to the malls.
The only places where they are not allowed
are supermarkets and pharmacies.
But in my pharmacy here in my place,
they have a sign in the summer outside
saying, you can't bring your dog into our
(19:57):
pharmacy.
Don't leave your dog in the hot car.
So it's, they're everywhere.
Sometimes when it's raining and I don't know
what to do with my dogs, then I
take them to the mall.
So we just go window shopping together and
yeah, that's it.
So yeah, I think most dogs in Germany
(20:18):
now are family dogs.
I think I don't have any numbers, but
I would guess it's 90% or even
more.
It's not allowed to tether your dog anymore
outside.
So this has been banned too.
You can have them in a kennel, but
the kennel has to be huge.
There are legal requirements for a kennel.
Yeah.
This is basically how dogs live in Germany,
(20:40):
in the house, not in a little, what
is it called?
The box that you use inside the house.
A crate.
A crate.
Exactly.
So crating is not very common here.
It becomes more and more popular, but it's
basically also not allowed.
So interesting.
I didn't know any of this about Germany
(21:02):
before talking to you.
So very different, very different to New Zealand
and very different.
I can appreciate some parts of the world.
Hey, I'm probably going to have more questions
about Germany because I'm pretty interested in everything
you've been sharing, but going back to your
journey, there's a pretty big gap between 2008,
(21:24):
I think, to 2016.
What were you doing in that period?
What were you doing?
I was a high school teacher.
So I studied to be a high school
teacher and I started teaching in 2009.
And so how did the transition happen?
(21:46):
What made you decide?
Yeah.
So first of all, it was just only
for my own dogs.
So I will never, ever teach anything, not
take money for anything.
I only do this for my own dogs
and this changed very quickly.
So yeah, I decided that I wanted to
(22:09):
do something besides teaching, not that I wasn't
busy enough, but I always need something else
to keep my mind busy.
And I was interested in dog training, did
a lot of workshops before that, did a
lot of seminars.
So I thought I could also start a
dog trainer education.
And I did this in 2016 when I
(22:31):
was still working full time at the school.
And the dog trainer course lasted for two
years.
And after that, I took three months off
from my teaching job and I went to
the UK on a European scholarship.
The UK was by then still illegible for
European scholarship.
(22:51):
So that has changed now, unfortunately.
So I went to Scotland to La Flore
and Dog Services, to Claire Staines, to do
some practical training with her.
And this was amazing.
So it was a very great time.
I had one of my dog that I,
Nanook, Malinka was not alive then anymore.
She had passed away in 2017, I think,
(23:16):
or 18, beginning of 18.
And in the summer of 2018, I took
Nanook, took my car, packed the car, threw
Nanook into the car, and then we drove
to Scotland.
And there I spent three months learning from
Claire Staines.
And yeah, it was just a wonderful time
in Scotland.
I feel like, I have no data on
(23:37):
this, but it's just anecdotal based on Ryan's
memory, which as a listener of this podcast,
you probably shouldn't trust.
But there are a lot of people who
make a transition.
I mean, not a lot, but if you
had to get the jobs that people were
doing before they became dog trainers or animal
(23:59):
trainers, maybe they're not working specifically with dogs.
I feel like there would be a pretty
big part of the pie that were teachers.
That's interesting.
I'm curious, as a high school teacher, you
said high school teacher, right?
Were you using things from dog training in
(24:20):
your classrooms?
I started doing this, but to be honest,
it's more the other way around.
That today when I teach, I don't so
much teach dogs, I more teach the people.
And I use a lot of methods, methodology
from teaching when I do workshops or when
(24:44):
I do online classes or also one-to
-one training.
So this helps me a lot.
I have a concept in my head, how
to structure a lesson, what do I need
to explain at which point so that it
makes sense to the listener or to the
reader.
And I think I benefit a lot from
this 10 years experience.
(25:06):
Can you give me an example and then
I ask my other question.
A practical example now.
One thing that comes into my mind is
when I was at a conference and it
was only at this conference that I realized
from the first two or three speakers that
(25:29):
I was supposed to do something interactive with
the audience.
And I had prepared a talk, basically, and
I was like, okay, panic.
And then I thought about what can I
do here in my presentation to make it
more interactive?
And I thought about a method that I
(25:50):
used as a teacher a lot, which goes
really quickly.
So you don't lose a lot of time,
but you still make people think.
It's called think, pair, share.
You give the instruction that everybody thinks for
a minute about a question for themselves.
Then they talk to their neighbor as a
pair, and then they share with everybody.
(26:11):
And so you get really quick, like a
highlight from each table where the audience is
sitting.
So I thought, okay, I can do this
here and here and here.
And then I changed my presentation quickly into
a more interactive style.
So this was just one little example where
(26:31):
this came in handy.
Interesting.
Hold these thoughts.
Let's jump back to 2016.
Wrong.
2016.
And you decided to make the switch from
teaching to full-time dog training?
(26:53):
Oh, no, not that yet.
So I first thought I would only do
it for myself.
And then I thought, okay, I might do
it for one evening per week or something
like this.
And it only happened after my daughter was
born that I decided not going back.
Ah, right.
Is that because when your daughter was born,
(27:14):
you took some time off from work, and
that gave you some new insights about, some
new reflections about what you wanted.
And your daughter is now three years old.
Is that right?
So to talk us through what's happened since
then.
And was that an easy decision or was
that quite, I imagine it's quite stressful.
(27:36):
Yeah.
So after I started training in 2018, it
was quite stressful because I was working full
-time at the school.
And when you're a teacher, of course you
stop in the afternoon, but then in the
evening you have to do your preparations and
markings and stuff like that.
(27:57):
So it's not that you are completely done
after you finish school.
So this was quite stressful because I first
had just two or three clients, then it
became more.
And so I had to really think about
what to do because I just had a
little limited time left for dog training.
(28:21):
Then I thought about reducing some hours, some
teaching lessons, doing less teaching and doing more
dog training.
But then COVID came and this changed everything.
So basically we had the schools closed for
a couple of weeks.
(28:41):
We did a lot of online teaching with
the students, but I also had a lot
of time left.
And this is when I started writing my
books.
So I basically wrote them during COVID, the
first two books.
And then after COVID, when everything went back
to normal, I had my daughter and I
(29:03):
dropped out completely.
So suddenly everything was very abnormal again, bringing
a child into your life.
Yeah.
But it was an easier transition than just
deciding, now I'll have to stop teaching and
make a leap.
So the transition was easier for me because
it was gradually and I could build up
my business because you cannot just stop one
(29:27):
thing without having the other one build up.
You have to make a living off something.
Kids are expensive as is life.
Exactly.
So 2000 and I'm jumping back and forth
here.
I'm just trying to understand how your journey
(29:47):
happened in terms of where you ended up.
And we haven't talked about that yet, but
a lot of you probably know Simone, so
you know where this is going.
But 2002 with Malinka and when she was
two years old, she started to show some
predatory behaviours 22 years later with some teaching
(30:09):
and some experiences and some books being read
and some training and making the transition.
You're now specialising in what you call predation
substitute training.
So that experience with Malinka, are we right
then in concluding that even though there's a
(30:30):
22 year gap there or 20 years from
when Malinka started showing those behaviours, that inspiration,
that experience in 2004 never left you and
that's why you're focused on this now?
Or is it unrelated that you ended up
focusing on the thing that Malinka was presenting
you with 20 years ago?
(30:51):
No, it was not a coincidence.
So I always find this, once I started
to do some research on this behaviour, I
found it so fascinating because it presents so
different in very different dogs.
And yeah, so I have always been fascinated
(31:11):
by predatory behaviour and I have done a
lot of workshops on this, even though Nanook,
the dog that came after Malinka and Isla,
they are not very predatory.
When there comes a deer, they run after
the deer for a couple of metres and
they come back.
So it's not a real struggle for me
anymore with predatory behaviour with my own dogs,
(31:32):
but I still have this interest.
And whenever I had the opportunity to learn
something about this, I did because it was
just like a hobby for me.
This is making a little bit more sense
now, I think, because look at, and this
is only one person's perception, which is mine,
(31:54):
but if I look at 2024 and Susan
Freeman's going, you've got to get Simone Muller
on your podcast, Ryan, and I'm seeing you
all over my socials and you at these
conferences and I'm like, Simone is obviously putting
out really great information.
(32:14):
It's great to understand your teaching background and
to understand that you have the skill set
at packaging information in accessible ways for people.
And then I'm thinking that it makes sense
that, because I go, well, 2020 when COVID
hit and then you had your daughter and
you made this transition, I mean, that's a
(32:35):
small time frame to suddenly have this global
reach.
That's amazing and congratulations, but it's kind of
making more sense because it wasn't that you
did all of that in three or four
years.
It was that you had been preparing for
that for 20 years and then suddenly, yeah,
(33:00):
without knowing, but suddenly your environment and the
opportunities that came out of really intense situations
like COVID came together.
But with you sharing your story now, it
makes sense.
I was going to say, how does my
(33:21):
reflections on what you shared with us land
with you?
Yeah.
So the first time that I really had
this moment of realization that these protocols that
exist in Germany do not exist internationally was
when I had a conversation with Claire in
(33:41):
Scotland.
So we talked about a lot of things
and then she said, we can tackle all
behavior problems with positive training, but not predation.
And in my head, I was like, don't
you like the training protocols or what?
And then we suddenly found out that they
(34:02):
are not out there, not accessible in English.
And this is when I thought, whoa, maybe
we can do something about that.
And then what did you do?
I wrote a book.
Yeah.
So you've asked your journey over the last
three, four years.
Yeah.
So this was when I wrote the first
book, Hunting Together, which is it's basically a
(34:23):
workshop that I had developed for my German
clients before that.
And it gives an overview over what is
predation?
What can you do about it if you
don't want to use aversive measures?
And what are the specialties that you have
to take into consideration?
And also the basic games and exercises.
(34:44):
And it was the concept for a two
day workshop that I had done in Germany
with my clients.
So I basically put this structure into the
first book that is now Hunting Together.
So it was 20 years of preparation with
and I'm using business terminology and I'm sure
(35:05):
there's a better way to frame this, but
you saw that there was a gap in
the market and a gap in the knowledge
or information that was out there.
Is that how you were thinking?
I'm going to fill that space and that's
why I'm writing this book.
Yeah, exactly.
So when you research on how to deal
with predatory behavior, then what comes up is
(35:27):
a lot about recall training.
So if you want to work force free,
it's all about recall training.
But recall is, it is important, but it's
only a kind of safety net when things
go wrong.
And I would say that 90% of
my training happens when there is not an
(35:48):
emergency.
So with recall, we only ever prepare for
the emergency when your dog chases something.
But the real root cause of the problem
has to be tackled when there is nothing
around, when we are out with our dogs
and there is no immediate wildlife, deer, rabbit
running in front of us.
(36:08):
So this is when we work on predatory
behavior.
And yeah, so there is so much more
that you can do than just recall or
put a leash on your dog.
So you wrote the first book and then
when was that?
About 2021, I'm guessing?
2022?
Yes, exactly.
It came out during COVID.
I think it was in 2020.
(36:31):
Yeah.
And then I immediately started with the second
one because then we had the school shutdowns
and I had time.
So I took my second workshop that I
had prepared and ready to go and put
this one into a book.
And this is now Rocket Recall, which is
about recall training, but a recall that really
(36:53):
works under big distractions.
So that is designed to work even when
you come across wildlife.
And this was then the second book, basically.
And did you stop there?
No, of course not.
Then it took some time to get into
(37:16):
writing again because then I had a kid
and I was really busy doing diaper changes
and night feedings and stuff like that.
But eventually I thought I have to write
another one.
But I wasn't able to write myself because
I didn't have the time anymore to physically
sit down and type it on my computer.
So I had my head full of ideas,
(37:38):
but I didn't have the time to put
it into my computer.
This is when I met Charlotte Garner from
England and she's a copywriter for canine stuff.
So she's a very passionate dog owner herself
and she helps me with my writing.
So what we basically did is I went
(38:00):
for walks with the stroller and on these
walks with the baby in the stroller, I
spoke her some speech messages and sent them
to England and she typed it down for
me.
And this is how we wrote the second
book, Don't Eat That.
It's not about the core predatory behavior, but
something that is related when you have a
(38:22):
dog that loves to scavenge, which is also
orientation behavior that is related to predatory behavior.
It stems from the same root.
And I had a lot of people coming
to me asking me, okay, my dog is
not very chasey, but he eats everything that
we come across, gross things, rotten stuff.
(38:44):
So what can I do?
And this is why I wrote the book
on this as well.
Okay.
Are you finished?
We're around here, like 15 more books.
Would you like to leave it here now?
Yeah.
What's coming next?
So the fourth book and then we're finished
(39:04):
here with the books.
This is also a book that I wrote
with Charlotte is the latest one that just
came out this year.
It's called Walking Together.
Because when I have clients with, especially gundog
breeds or high energy breeds, they come to
my training for predatory behavior.
But every time when we are talking and
(39:27):
walking and working, then at some point it
comes up that the dog is not able
to walk on a loose leash.
And I saw this pattern in all my
clients with high prey drive dogs that I
thought long and hard about why is this
a problem with these types of dogs that
they find it so hard to walk on
a loose leash.
(39:48):
And then I talked to colleagues and I
read a lot of literature and I puzzled
together a kind of cheat training program for
those high energy, high prey drive dogs.
Because again, the root cause of the problem
is the predatory behavior.
It's something which is called predatory over arousal.
(40:11):
And I think we will talk about this
a little later in the podcast.
So they need a special approach.
They cannot just go into the next dog
training class and do some obedience training because
it doesn't transfer into the real world for
them.
And I'm sure there's more books in your
brain.
(40:35):
That as you're about to go traveling around
Canadian national parks, you'll have ideas in the
back of your head.
So this has been really enjoyable.
I've really enjoyed hearing about your story.
And the other thing I'm thinking about and
curious about is how you would describe yourself.
(40:57):
Here's how I'm seeing you.
Someone who's very, you said you always need
something to keep your mind busy.
You said in our call we had before
we recorded, this was last week before we
recorded this for the listeners of the show,
I always catch up with my guests beforehand.
You said you're very structured.
(41:19):
You want to get things in a structured
way, piece things together.
And I get the sense that you're very
curious.
I'm a dopamine victim, I guess.
So like the dogs I'm dealing with, I'm
always looking for the next dopamine rush.
And I get this from learning stuff that
(41:40):
I'm interested in, doing courses.
So yeah, very curious.
Not very structured.
If you told my husband that I'm a
structured person, he would laugh because I think
I'm a very chaotic person.
But in my job, I like to be
structured because this is the only way that
I can keep track of things.
(42:02):
So if I'm not structured, then everything will
be forgotten and gone.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think if we asked our spouses
about traits that others might see in us
in other contexts, they would laugh at many
of those labels that get placed upon us.
(42:22):
I know my wife would.
In terms of structure, I feel like working
with clients, seeing patterns, articulating those patterns with
the help of Charlotte and getting those into
a sequenced, a sequential order inside a book
that helps others.
(42:44):
Maybe one might label that as a structured
way of organizing your thoughts.
Yeah.
And especially during the last book, during the
Walking Together book, I had so many lightbulb
moments myself when I thought about various dog
breeds and what they were originally bred for
(43:06):
and what makes or what happens to them
now when they are in a family environment.
I had this somewhere in my head, but
in order to bring it onto paper, I
had to structure it really clearly.
And then sometimes it was for me even
like, wow, right, this is where this comes
from.
(43:27):
So, yeah, it really helps to get your
thoughts organized to write a book.
I can only recommend this.
Yeah.
I don't know the saying, I don't even
know if there is a saying, but I
know there's a concept that the best way
to, or maybe not the best way, but
(43:49):
a powerful way to grow your own knowledge
and to grow your own skills to teach.
Yeah.
Well, you know.
Yeah.
And also to, when you're kind of fresh
into an idea or fresh into learning something,
that's also a great time to teach it
(44:09):
because you still understand what others don't understand.
Whilst if you are 10 years into a
subject, you start to lose sight of what
it's like to be in that place of
not knowing.
Exactly.
And you have to break it down and
get back to the basics.
Yeah.
So, this really helps a lot.
(44:32):
We're all better off for it because of
your books and contributions and learning what you
guys in Germany know that we don't, but
now we do, and we haven't figured out
yet.
And share with the listeners before we wrap
up part one of this conversation with you,
Simone, what a week looks like for you
(44:52):
in 2024.
And I understand that every week is different,
but generally speaking.
What looks like for me in 2024?
A week.
What takes up your time at the moment?
Okay, good.
So, that's a very interesting question because this
changes a lot from time to time.
(45:14):
I try to do some clients here so
that I think it's really important for me
to work with dogs because this is where
I get my inspirations from.
This is where I can try my methods,
where I can try the protocols and I
(45:35):
say, okay, now I have to adjust them
a little bit.
And this is also where I come across
the problems that the people have when they
have high prey drive dogs.
And I also try not to only teach
predatory behavior.
I also take on some cases, for example,
(45:57):
dog aggression or separation anxiety if it's not
that severe.
So, I always say I'm not an expert
in this.
I try to help you because then I
also have an open mind and I have
to think about other stuff than just predatory
behavior.
So, I do some clients here more in
(46:18):
the summer than in the winter because in
the winter nobody wants to train their dogs.
It's too cold here.
And then I do a lot of work
on my computer basically.
So, preparing courses, preparing workbooks, writing my next
book, stuff like that.
So, I'm always busy.
(46:39):
Well, just before you wrap up, can you
share for those listening where they can go
online or if they live close to you
in Germany, maybe go to get personal help.
But for the majority of us, where they
can go online to find you, to see
you on social media, your website, get in
touch, do your courses, read your books, point
(47:01):
us to all of the places you'd like
the listeners to visit.
Okay.
So, of course, you can come to me
for a weekend or something.
Then we can do some training here in
the woodland.
We have a lot of wildlife here.
So, sometimes clients come to me and they
are really like, wow, how can you even
walk your dogs here?
The woods is full of deers and boars
(47:26):
and stuff like that.
So, we have a lot to train here.
But normally, you can do it from your
sofa and just go online, predationsubstitutetraining.com.
And there you can also find my newsletter.
So, you can subscribe to the newsletter if
you're interested in knowing more.
(47:47):
You can have a look at the courses
that I have at the moment.
I have a very comprehensive online course that
leads you through the whole predation substitute training,
gives you all the tools that you need
to know with your dog.
But if you just want to start learning
and do not want to spend a lot
of money in the beginning, especially, you can
(48:08):
always start with the books.
I think this is the most easy and
yet effective way to learn about force-free
predation substitute training.
You can find all the books on Amazon.
That's the easiest way to get them.
Or also from the local bookstores.
They all have an ISBN number, so you
can just get them from your local bookstore
(48:28):
if you want to support them.
Wonderful.
We will, of course, link to all of
this in the show notes for you to
listen to.
We will officially now wrap up part one
of this episode, but we're going to invite
Simone back and talk about everything predation.
Simone, this has been so much fun.
So, from myself and on behalf of everyone
(48:48):
listening, we really appreciate you coming and hanging
out with us today.
Thank you so much.
Thank you very much for the invitation.
Thank you.
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
(49:09):
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them, and
(49:30):
keep improving.
And don't forget, the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership, where you will find a community of
trainers just like you.
(49:53):
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome, and remember, every interaction with an animal
or human learner is your opportunity to create
ripples.
(50:13):
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
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