Simone Mueller: Navigating Predatory Behavior in Dogs [Episode 239]

Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a

(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
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Therefore, since 2015, we've been on a mission
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We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding

(00:51):
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Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant

(01:12):
community, and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
podcast episode as we explore new ways to
help you supercharge your training skills, grow your
knowledge, and build your confidence so that you
can craft a life that positively impacts every

(01:32):
learner you encounter.
But we will start today's episode where I'm
excited to continue my conversation with Simone Muller.
Now, if you haven't listened to the first
part of our conversation, you can find it
in the previous episode on whatever app you

(01:56):
are listening to the show on.
In that episode, we explored Simone's journey and
getting started with positive reinforcement animal training and
what led her to her current focus on
predation substitute training, which we're going to talk
more in depth about today.
That one's definitely worth a listen.

(02:16):
However, if you haven't listened to it, you
are of course totally welcome to start here
with part two, where you're going to gain
plenty of insights and knowledge to help you
grow your skills, knowledge, and confidence in animal
training.
But let's dive in by quickly reintroducing our
special guest, Simone, who is a certified dog
trainer and dog behavior consultant in Germany.

(02:38):
She specializes in force-free anti-predation training
and is the author of multiple books in
the predation substitute training series.
Simone is proud to be an associate trainer
at the Scotland-based Loflorian Dog Training Club
and a member of the Initiative of Force
-Free Dog Training, the Pet Professional Guild, and

(03:00):
the Dog Trainers of Europe.
Simone, thanks so much.
I know it's late for you there in
Germany, just before you're about to jet off
to Canada after the weekend.
So thanks so much for coming to hang
out with us again at Animal Training Academy.
Thank you very much for having me back.
I'm excited now, Simone, to focus in on

(03:20):
your speciality, and that is predation substitute training,
which we touched on briefly in part one.
But I was wondering, to get us started,
can you, for the listeners, offer a definition
of the term predation and unpack this label

(03:40):
for us?
Yeah, so predation in dogs, this is something
when my clients come to me and they
say, I have a dog with a high
prey drive, what they normally mean is two
things.
One is my dog is chasing, chasing animals.
And the second thing is my dog has
attacked a sheep or a deer or something

(04:02):
like this.
So in the perception of a wider public,
predation or predatory behavior is either chasing or
grabbing, bread biting and killing.
But in fact, predatory behavior in dogs or
in general is much more than that.
So we have a lot more going on.

(04:24):
And it starts way before the chase.
So would you like me to go through
the behavior chain?
Yeah.
So predatory behavior is a behavior chain.
So it's not one thing that you can
pinpoint.
And it all starts with orientation behavior, orientation
in the environment.
Is there something to hunt?

(04:45):
So you might know this from your own
dog when you come out of woodland into
a field or you reach the top of
a hill that your dog stops and looks
around.
And this is the start of predatory behavior.
The dog scanning the environment with their eyes,
looking for something interesting in whatever direction.

(05:05):
But if they spot prey, it goes into
a predatory direction.
My dogs especially love listening.
So we have a quite dense woodland.
So when we walk on a forest path,
they cannot see into the forest, but they
sometimes stop and they listen.

(05:25):
So you see their ears twitch.
Sometimes they tilt their head and they try
to figure out, is there something inside the
forest that is worth running over and chasing?
If you have a spaniel or a hound,
you might know the tracking, the searching behavior
in order to get oriented in the environment

(05:48):
so that your dog runs into a bush,
nose down, zigzag, watering the bushes, trying to
find, is there something to hunt?
So the dog can orient or show this
orientation behavior with all their senses, with the
eyes, scanning, with the nose, searching, air-sensing,

(06:09):
with the nose high in the air, or
also with their ears, listening.
And then this is the start of it.
And then when the dog finds that there
is something in the environment that is interesting
to check out, then they slide onto the
next step.
You can imagine predatory behavior being a staircase

(06:30):
or a ladder.
And once the dog has entered the first
step with the orientation behavior, they are very
likely to slide onto the next step and
so on to walk through this whole ladder
or this whole staircase.
The next part of the predatory motor pattern,
that is the term for it, is creeping.

(06:53):
Sorry, not creeping, stalking.
So the dog has oriented, has seen, okay,
there is something, and now it gets serious.
So this is when the dog is fixated
on this other animal.
So their eyes are glued to this animal,
and the dog gets really arrow-shaped and
tense, pointed towards this other animal.
And then they start to creep, to creep

(07:15):
forward, to bridge the gap between themselves and
the other animal.
Because what comes next is the chase, but
the chase is very calorie-consuming.
It's very exhausting for the predator.
And so the dog or whatever predator wants
to get as close to the other animal
as possible before he goes into the chase

(07:37):
to save energy, to save calories.
Chase is what we are all familiar with.
And this is when we finally realize, oh
gosh, predatory behavior, hunting, dog is chasing, so
everything is going south.
And if the dog is, let's call it
lucky, they get to grab bite the other
animal and kill bite the prey animal.

(07:58):
And then they start to dissect and eat.
And this is when the predatory motor pattern,
this behavior chain has come to an end.
So we have the hole from the start,
from the orientation behavior, and it all starts
with the dissection and eating.
And can you explain how this all works?
So they stop and they start scanning around

(08:21):
the environment, whether with their eyes or their
nose or their ears.
And you said once, tell me if I've
got this wrong.
I think you said once they start that
sequence, they're very likely to slide onto the
next step.
Yeah.
Can you unpack for the listeners the why
behind that?

(08:41):
Like how does this all work?
Yeah.
This all has to do with the hormones
and neurotransmitters that are released during the whole
behavior, not only during the chase.
Already when they start orientation behavior, it gives
them a lot of hormones and agents into
their body that feel really good for them.

(09:04):
So it is what is called an intrinsic
behavior.
So it's intrinsically motivating for the dog, which
means in simpler words, it feels good.
It is self-rewarding.
This is why we can hardly stand a
chance to keep the dog from hunting with
a dry cookie because he's not interested in

(09:24):
the cookie in this moment.
It's all these stuff going on in the
dog's body that makes them feel even euphoric.
So the first thing that is released is
dopamine.
Dopamine is how to call this an agent

(09:45):
that is a neurotransmitter.
It's a neurotransmitter.
Yeah.
That is in humans.
We have dopamine release when we have anticipation.
So for example, if you plan for a
new trip like me going to Canada, this

(10:05):
is dopamine driven.
I want to go on this trip.
I have my travel guide and I search
the Internet and I read a lot and
I watch videos and I cannot wait to
go on this trip because the new experiences
that I want to have there and that
I expect to have there releases dopamine in
my body.

(10:26):
And the same for the dogs, anticipation.
So there could be something to hunt.
There could be something to chase.
And this dopamine makes you even addicted.
So we know from, for example, gambling or
drug-related problems that they give you a
dopamine boost.
And it's the same with our dogs.

(10:46):
So we could literally say that they somehow
can get addicted to this hunting behavior because
it feels so good.
And then we have also adrenaline because it
might be dangerous to face a stag or
a boar.
And adrenaline is also released into the body
during the hunt.
And this mixture of adrenaline and dopamine and

(11:10):
endorphins that are released creates a state of
euphoria, a state that even reduces the pain
perception.
This is why we, for example, have dogs
that get badly wounded during the hunt, but
they still persevere.
They keep on trying to finish off the

(11:31):
wild boar or something like this, because at
this very moment they are so high, they
cannot even feel the pain.
And then when the dog has made prey,
the dopamine eases off.
And what kicks in now are the endorphins,
the happy hormones.
And here we mainly have endorphins.

(11:52):
Just forgot.
What kind of endorphins?
There is one special serotonin.
Sorry.
So we have the serotonin kicking in.
And, you know, it's getting late here.
We already have 10 o'clock here, so
my brain is trying to go away.
Okay, so we have the serotonin kicking in

(12:13):
the endorphins.
And these are the agents that are responsible
for indulging into something that you love, that
you enjoy.
So, for example, when I am then finally
in Canada and I am on a nice
hike with my husband and my daughter and
we sit down by a lake and we
have a picnic, then this is where endorphins

(12:34):
kick in, because now I can enjoy what
I have prepared and fought for so hard.
And, for example, when you get a raise
in your job and you take the money
and you buy yourself a new car or
you go on a holiday, this is where
endorphins are released into your body.
And the same happens to the dogs.
So we have dopamine, we have endorphins, and

(12:56):
this all creates this kind of very intense
experience for the dog.
And the predatory sequence, is that the predatory
sequence that is generally speaking the one that
predators on planet Earth go through?

(13:18):
Or is there some nuances that are specific
for dogs and what you've described?
I'm glad you asked, because this is what
I just explained.
The predatory sequence is what a normal wild
canine would do, for example, a wolf, a
fox, a coyote, whatever wild canines we have.
Even the cats go through a similar predatory

(13:40):
motor pattern, the wild cats and the big
ones as well.
However, what makes life really difficult for us
humans is that our dogs come with special
effects and they do not go through this
whole predatory motor pattern anymore, or at least
most of them.
This happens because we have altered their behavior

(14:02):
to our advantage.
For example, when you need a dog for
tracking, you highlight this part of the predatory
sequence to an enormous extent.
So you need the best dog for tracking,
you make those dogs who are perfect at
tracking.
But at the same time, when you are

(14:23):
a hunter, you do not want your dog
to kill and maybe kill, but not dissect
and eat the deer or the rabbit.
You want the meat for yourself and you
don't want it to be destroyed by your
dog molding it.
So again, these parts of the predatory sequence
have been bred out.
So we want to highlight certain parts for

(14:45):
our tasks that we want the dogs to
do.
Retrievers retrieve and hounds track and spaniels flush.
So we take those parts of the predatory
sequence that come convenient for us and highlight
them to a massive extent.
But the others, we don't want them to
perform.
So now we have the problem that we
have dogs that do not stand and stalk

(15:08):
and then creep.
They go into the chase immediately.
So we have a dog that orients in
the environment, sees something, chases off, and then
they do not stop after a reasonable amount
of time because a wolf always has to
make the calculation.
I'm burning energy here.

(15:29):
Is it really worthwhile to keep on hunting
and chasing this deer?
Or when the deer has gotten away, is
it really worthwhile tracking it again?
Because I will lose a lot of calories.
They also have to make the calculation is
safe to do because there is no vet
for me, putting me back together when I
get wounded.
Whereas our dogs, they do not make these

(15:51):
calculations.
They just go for it.
And for example, I always remember I was
out in the woods with my own dogs.
And then suddenly I heard a deer bolting
out of the forest.
I could just simply grab my dogs and
hold on to their harnesses.
And the deer was running from left to
right.
And then already I heard the sound of

(16:13):
the dash hound coming behind it.
Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, with the sound.
So chasing this deer and the hound was
running after the deer and they were both
gone.
And afterwards, I found out that in my
village, the hunter has lost his dog.
So not literally lost, but he found it
again after two days of chasing.

(16:36):
Because the dash hounds are made to persevere,
to flush the deer up again and again
and again and not let them rest until
they die.
And this would be a totally crazy thing
for any wild animal to do.
It's completely senseless.
But we wanted them to do that and
now they do that.

(16:56):
Yeah, super, super interesting.
You mentioned you wanted to talk about four
categories.
Is that what we've just covered?
Sorry?
You mentioned you wanted to talk about four
categories.
Was the four categories you wanted to talk
about, was that what we've just covered?
No.
No.
Cool.
It's yeah, the four categories what you can
do about predation when you want to work

(17:20):
on it in a prosperous way.
Yeah.
Cool.
So we dive into that.
Okay, good.
So when you now want to deal with
this behavior that is super hard to interrupt
and you cannot even get rid of because
it's genetically anchored.
It's so great for the dog to perform
so the dog will not just leave it
be because you asked them and the dog

(17:40):
will also not just leave it be because
you have a nice dry cookie here and
you wave with that cookie.
It will not happen because the act of
hunting itself is so super, super duper great
for the dog.
So you really have to come up with
more than that.
And I have tried to structure the way

(18:03):
how you have or how to deal with
predatory behavior if you don't want to use
aversive measures, if you want to use reward
-based training.
And I have structured all the games and
training aspects into four different categories.
The first category is management and prevention.

(18:27):
And it's about what you can do so
that your dog does not stumble across wildlife
because a lot of problems just come from
the fact that the dog and the owner
are not really in contact with each other
when they are out and about.
So the dog is somewhere, the owner is
on the phone maybe or just daydreaming on

(18:47):
the path and then the dog stumbles across
wildlife.
So we need to build a connection between
guardian, dog owner and dog so that they
both stay in contact with each other for
the whole walk.
And this sounds a little bit stressful, but
yeah, it is a little bit stressful, I

(19:10):
would say.
Not really stressful, but you have to, when
you are out with a high prey drive
dog, you cannot relax.
You cannot walk and be on your phone
at the same time.
So you always have to have one eye
on the dog and see what the dog
is up to.
And this is what we do first.
So we work on the dog being in

(19:30):
a certain radius around his owner, staying on
a path instead of running into the bushes.
Your dog can be happy staying on a
path.
It's a concept that is also new for
a lot of people that your dog does
not have to roam in the woodlands to
be happy.
And that the dog every now and then

(19:51):
looks back to their owner and communicates.
And also that the dog is able to
eat outside because we have so many dogs
that are so hyper the moment they walk
out of the door that they cannot even
take food.
And then the owner says, my dog is
not food motivated.

(20:12):
We cannot use food in training.
But the basic problem is that the dog
is too excited.
We have to start lowering this arousal, this
excitement of the dog and get them into
eating.
And then the second aspect of this force
-free protocol is that you teach the owner
and the dog both alternative behaviors, what to

(20:35):
do when you come across wildlife.
So when you see a deer or a
rabbit and it's not directly in front of
your nose, so maybe at a nice distance
where you can still react, your dog can
still think, what do we do now?
And then you teach your dog alternative behaviors.
And the clever thing here to do is

(20:57):
to teach them alternative behaviors that are also
part of the predatory motor pattern.
We heard that the predatory motor pattern starts
with orientation, then we have to stop, we
have to creep and then starts to chase.
And now it gets messy.
But everything that comes before that is relatively
safe.
It's quite stationary.

(21:18):
And the dog can still enjoy the fun
and the hormones and the neurotransmitters that come
with predatory behavior.
So the dog is still in this predatory
motor pattern, but in a safe way.
And this is basically what we teach the
dog instead of running off straight away.
Why don't you look at the other animal?

(21:38):
Might be nice too.
And the dog in the beginning is like,
why?
And then they start to, oh, maybe it's
nice too.
And also we teach the clients what to
do, because the moment that human beings out
with their dogs, see a wild animal, they
panic, they get into panic because they know
what's coming next.

(21:59):
So they grab the leash, they grab the
harness, they shout frantically.
And this is the cue for the dog
to be alert.
Maybe the dog has not even seen the
deer yet, but the moment the human becomes
hectic, they are like, oh, okay, where is
it?
And so we need to teach the human
to what to do in these situations.
They can't handle the leash in this way,

(22:21):
talk to your dog in that way.
So this is a whole behavior modification for
both of them.
Any questions or do you like me to
go on with the third part?
Well, I'm wondering how you teach humans to
be calm because I can appreciate maybe we
practice in a controlled environment, but then the

(22:42):
approximation between that controlled environment and a real
life situation are significant.
So how do you teach that?
Yeah, it's learning by doing.
So you cannot set this up.
You can with a stuffed animal or with

(23:03):
a fake animal, do it one time, but
this is only to teach the client what
to do when their dog reacts in a
certain way so that they have handled this
in a safe environment once.
And then the dog knows that this is
just a fake stuff, stuffy or something like
this.
So then we have to go out and

(23:24):
we have to practice in real life situations.
And of course it's in predation particularly difficult
because you cannot control the wild animals.
So you never know what happens.
And this is why it's so important that
especially during the laying the foundation period, you
have to have a long line on your
dog so that you can prevent your dog

(23:45):
from chasing if the dog is too close
to the other animal or if you have
miscalculated to prevent the dog from having success.
Yeah.
So a long line on for management purposes,
as opposed to training purposes, but you just
need that safety protocol in place.

(24:06):
Exactly.
You cannot or you shouldn't risk anybody getting
hurt.
And it's three parties that have to stay
safe.
So it's not just the dog, it's also
the wild animal that we are responsible for.
It's I think in every country it is
not allowed or legally not allowed to track

(24:27):
or search for wild animals and follow them.
So we have to be really careful here
too.
And of course, it's also not safe for
the people with the leash in their hands.
They can get knocked over or something.
So it's always safety first.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Well, correct me if I'm wrong.

(24:48):
We've got out of the four categories you
teach active supervision and what to do in
this situation, both for the human learner and
the canine learner.
What's next?
Next is the predation games that I play
with the dogs, because when you want the

(25:08):
dogs to not chase anymore and to put
themselves together all the time, you need to
give them an outlet where they can have
really fun and be a dog and do
all the stuff that they want to do,
but they are not safe to do.
For example, grabbing and ripping apart and chasing.
So what I basically do is I ask

(25:28):
the clients to observe their dogs at home
when they play, when they play with their
toys or play with another dog or play
with the humans.
What parts of the predatory motor pattern does
your dog show?
And then we can start to mimic those
with games to give the dogs an outlet.
Can you share with us one or two

(25:50):
games that you might play?
Yeah, of course.
So for example, a very, very simple game
that most dogs love, I have never come
across a dog that doesn't love it, is
to give an outlet for grabbing and dissecting.
So you can simply, most of the games
are super simple so that you can just
do them without any training.

(26:12):
You take a paper bag, for example, in
Germany, when you go into a bakery, you
get a really nice thin paper bag and
you can stuff them with treats and then
you can wrap them up or close them
and then you take this paper bag on
your walk.
And the next time your dog is gone
or is ahead of you on the path

(26:33):
and you recall your dog, then you throw
the paper bag into the opposite direction and
then your dog can run past you, he
can chase the paper bag, he can grab
or jump on the paper bag and then
he can start to dissect and eat the
treats from the paper bag.
So we have created an outlet for chasing,
for grabbing, for dissecting and eating.

(26:57):
It's super simple.
Maybe your dog needs a little help in
the beginning because a lot of dogs have
been taught not to destroy things.
But if you sit down next to your
dog and you show them, you rip the
paper bag apart for them, then you can

(27:18):
see that they really enjoy this noise of
ripping paper.
It's like, wow, giving them shivers somehow.
And then they will start to join in
and you can encourage them a little bit
to do it on their own.
Yeah, awesome.
I love the simplicity of that.
And things where our clients don't have to
do training are wonderful.

(27:39):
What's the fourth category?
So when you have done the four, normally
I do all at the same time.
In each session, I do from each category,
one exercise or one game.
And the fourth is, of course, recall.
So where the traditional training protocols only focus

(28:00):
on recall because it is so important.
Your dog needs a recall.
It's a solid recall that even works under
distractions, under the highest distractions, which might be
a little bit tricky.
But you can teach your dog a recall
that works even in the presence of wildlife.
And this is what we also work on.

(28:20):
So I give the dog owners options of
how to train a recall that is super
solid, super strong, because as we said before,
you cannot fully control the environment, especially in
predation training.
And you will need your recall.
So things will go wrong at one point
and you will need to call your dog

(28:41):
back and out of the situation.
Awesome.
I love the idea of teaching one aspect
from each category in each session.
What's an example of something you might teach,
say, in an early session with a client

(29:02):
in terms of the recall category?
You mean for the recall?
You were just frozen for a second, so
I didn't get the whole...
My apology.
What is something that you might teach in
an early session with a client in terms
of the recall category?
In terms of recall, yeah.

(29:22):
So first of all, recall is a lot
of talking because we need to...
What is really important when you want to
teach the recall up to such a high
standard that it even works under this massive
distraction?
I would call this the top tier challenges

(29:43):
for any dog owner to recall from running
prey.
And in order so that your recall works
up to such a high level, you have
to lay the foundations very, very carefully, very
solid.
And there, if you, in your training, you
do some mistakes, some training mistakes, then your

(30:06):
recall will never work to such a high
level.
You will come to a medium distraction.
No problem.
Your dog will still come back.
But when it comes to this, when it
really counts, then the recall will fail.
And this often is the case because we
have some basic mistakes.
So this is where I first start.
I first ask my clients, how did you

(30:28):
train the recall?
How did you structure the training?
Did you structure it at all?
And then I asked them to show me
how do you recall your dog?
And then I already see some things that
I think, OK, maybe we start from scratch.
We take another cue and we start from
the beginning.
And this time we do it in a

(30:48):
way that it will work and you can
structure it and scaffold it up to a
top level.
Awesome.
Well, I love that we've just scratched the
surface here.
And I think it gives the listeners of
this show a tiny little window into all
of the exciting, amazing things you have to

(31:09):
teach and the depth of what they can
learn from looking into more of your content,
because we do only have an hour for
this episode.
So we can't spend the whole episode talking
about this one thing because we've got a
few other things we were planning to discuss.
The next one, Simone, was pseudopredation.

(31:30):
Can we dive into that, please?
Pseudopredation is a term that was coined by
a colleague from here in Germany.
And she was the first one to realize
that there is difference in unwanted predatory behavior
in dogs that we do not want as

(31:51):
the humans.
Because when we have real predatory behavior, it's
mostly based on genetics.
So the dog was bred to perform a
hunting task.
But then we have a lot of dogs
and these are often the most severe cases
that we have in our dog training that

(32:11):
were not bred for this task originally.
And we start to wonder where does this
come from, this behavior.
And often we see that there is no
real reason for predation.
So it happens so randomly and so out
of the blue that it doesn't really make
sense.
And what we often find is that dogs

(32:33):
who are in a conflict or not completely
comfortable in their environment due to certain factors
that I will talk later about, they show
it as a kind of displacement behavior.
Displacement behavior is a behavior that doesn't really
fit in this context, in this particular context.

(32:53):
So it's like, what the hell is he
doing at the moment?
And then the dogs often go into predatory
behavior because it feels so good for them.
So when they don't know what to do,
they resort into a behavior that feels nice.
And this is predation.
So we might have these dogs that, for
example, enter a dog park with a lot

(33:16):
of dogs and they do not feel very
comfortable with all these dogs and people around.
So what they do is they are suddenly
super, super busy sniffing or tracking or looking
at something.
And it's like, OK, he's hunting, but why?
And this might be a kind of displacement
behavior.
And when we have these various factors, we

(33:39):
call it pseudopredation because it's not real predatory
behavior.
And it doesn't make sense to train it
with this antipredation protocol that I just explained,
because the underlying problem is something completely else.
It might be, for example, that a rescue
dog comes to a new country and has

(34:01):
to adjust to this new culture, this new
people, this new surroundings, a new climate.
And what they express is massive predatory behavior
because they cannot cope with the environment.
So they do something that feels good for
them.
Or, for example, when we have dogs with
a lot of background stress at home, for

(34:24):
example, a new baby in the house or
a puppy, a new puppy in the house,
and the dog does not get enough sleep
and is stressed.
And then the dog owners take the dog
out and the dog immediately starts to chase,
to track, to sniff.
And this is a kind of release for
this stressful environment that they have at home.

(34:47):
Would you like me to talk a little
bit more about the reasons?
Yeah.
Okay.
So one thing that is quite common, and
that this is also why when I have
clients coming to my training and they do
not have a hunting dog or a dog
that was bred for hunting, but maybe an
Australian Shepherd or something, which is not the

(35:08):
typical hunting dog.
And they tell me that the dog is
showing a lot of predatory behavior.
I always give them a checklist with a
lot of questions about what is going on
at home.
And there is often the case that these
dogs suffer, for example, from separation anxiety.
This is really interesting because when you think

(35:31):
about when do you take your dog out,
it's when you come home after you've been
away because you think your dog needs to
pee.
So the dog has been alone for about
four hours, five hours.
You come home, you take the dog out,
the dog starts to hunt.
But what really happened is the dog had
such a hard time staying at home and

(35:52):
really lost all their impulse control and the
ability to put themselves together.
And then they come out and they release
this energy into predatory behavior.
We also see this with dogs that have,
for example, a very stressful life.
For example, dogs with a job who do

(36:15):
not have enough rest in between their tasks
that they perform.
For example, dogs that go to school with
their owners as a school dog or also
dogs that do a lot of dog sports
that involve lots of waiting and watching other

(36:37):
dogs perform.
So I love agility, I did a lot
of agility with my first two dogs, but
I don't like them to watch the other
dogs while they run in the parkour and
they have to wait because I know that
my dogs have to pull themselves together, seeing

(36:59):
these other dogs running and this is not
good for them.
And if you do a dog sports that
involves a lot of waiting and watching other
dogs, you might have an eye on predatory
behavior as well, because this might be the
release after they come home from this stressful
event.
Might also be the other way around.

(37:20):
Dogs with not enough stimulation, especially those dogs
that were bred for wide movements, big movements.
For example, a setter who is made to
run in big circles in open fields, if
they are kept on a leash all the

(37:40):
time, this also might resort into predatory or
result in predatory behavior when they get the
opportunity because they are always on a leash,
they always cannot follow their genetic makeup and
when they are finally released, they go completely
crazy.
Do you want me to talk about frustration
too?
I have some more on my list.

(38:01):
Yeah, keep going, this is great.
Please do.
So what also a lot of people underestimate
is frustration.
There is this saying that frustration kicks into
the dog's legs.
So it transfers directly into the dog's legs.

(38:24):
So when your dog gets frustrated and you
have an active stress type, a dog that
releases stress through movement, and most hunting dogs,
predatory or high energy dogs, herding dogs, they
are active stress types.
When they get frustrated because they are held
back, they transfer this automatically into more movement.

(38:46):
So think about where you walk your dogs
and at which time you walk your dogs
there.
When they are always confronted with wildlife scent,
maybe also see wildlife a lot, and they
cannot follow their genetic makeup, which tells them
to go after it, chase them, track them,

(39:07):
whatever.
This leads to frustration.
And when you give them no outlets, the
leash is too short, or you always have
them on a reflexive leash or something, and
they cannot follow their natural movement pattern, this
also leads to more predatory behavior when they
get the chance to.
And this also leads to a lot of

(39:28):
leash pulling.
This is why a lot of hunting dogs,
a lot of high energy dogs cannot walk
on a leash over a longer period of
time, because the moment that frustration or excitement
kicks in, they want to follow their natural
movement pattern, which is, of course, faster and
wider than the normal movement pattern that we

(39:52):
want them to perform on a loose leash.
So there's been conversation in this episode about
breeds of dog and about how some breeds
of dog have been bred to have certain
parts of the predatory sequence, or the average
member of their breed would be more likely

(40:12):
to exhibit these behaviors.
And when you see the pseudo-predatory behaviors
in breeds that aren't typically known for exhibiting
some of these behaviors, you go, why is
that?
And sometimes it could be for some of
the reasons you've just discussed.
I'm really curious, I just find myself curious
as you're talking about the mechanisms behind all

(40:35):
of this, and my level of analysis is
mainly behavior analysis.
I'm learning a lot now from an area
where I'm not primarily using to process information.
I'm like, what is the antecedent?
What is the behavior?
What is the consequence?

(40:56):
So help me out here.
In dogs, the predatory sequence is in their
genetic code, and then for an individual or
a breed that is not breed typical for
that behavior to occur, it's something that gets

(41:18):
expressed genetically, given the right context.
What is the question?
Is that an accurate way of thinking about
it?
Does that make sense?
I can restate it.
Yeah, maybe you can say it in different
words.
So if you have a breed, tell me

(41:38):
a breed of dog where you might not
necessarily expect so much to see in a
typical member of that breed, the predatory sequence.
Australian Shepherd.
Okay, Australian Shepherd?
Yeah, they normally do not express real predatory
behavior.
Okay, and so you get a client ring

(41:59):
you up and they say, I've got an
Australian Shepherd, and they are doing these behaviors
that sound to you like the predatory sequence.
So this individual dog, who's an average member
of that species, because of course, there's going
to be an Australian Shepherd who likes to
just relentlessly chase because they're an anomaly in

(42:22):
that breed, or there might be one that
never chases, no matter how much frustration or
separation anxiety they experience.
But an average, let's say, they are involved
in some sport where they're watching a lot
of fast moving dogs, and we're starting to

(42:42):
see some pseudo predation from this individual.
So my question is about the mechanics of
that.
What is happening is, is it that this
predatory sequence is built into genetic code of
that individual dog, and the environment can, and

(43:04):
I had the word before, and now it's
left me, the environment can make those genes
become expressed in that?
Oh, okay.
Is that what's happening?
Like, help me understand this.
Yes.
So every dog has parts of predatory behavior
in them.
So almost every dog chases, this is quite

(43:25):
natural behavior for them.
And so it comes through genetics, but it's
also learning experience.
And we cannot know what is what really
in each dog, because sometimes a dog that
has never chased before comes across a deer
starts chasing, and then we do not know,
is it now a learned behavior, felt good,

(43:48):
great.
So I do this again.
Or is it something that would have come
anyway, but maybe four weeks later, or a
month later.
So especially in younger dogs, we never know
what is genetics and what is learned experience.
So a dog can learn to do all
these things.
A nice example for learned predatory behavior that

(44:09):
I have in Austrian Shepherds, this is why
I brought up the example is quite common
is that we have Austrian Shepherds that go
really far away from their owners.
And Austrian Shepherds normally don't do that.
They are little gluey things that stick around
quite nicely with you.
But we have those Shepherds that chase and

(44:30):
that run off and that go away from
their owners.
Because what they have learned is that when
I run fast into the opposite direction, far
away from my owner, my owner will start
to whistle.
And then I come back and then I
get a nice tuck game or a nice
treat.
And so this is a very good example

(44:52):
of pseudo predation, where the predatory behavior is
not in the focus of the dog.
It's getting the interaction from their humans, getting
the attention from their humans.
Does answer your question?
I'm not sure about that.
Yeah, that only makes sense in terms of
the behavior.
I mean, that's where my brain is.
It's like, yeah, that makes sense.

(45:13):
Antecedent.
Cool.
We're out on the beach.
Behavior run far away.
Consequences, I get whistled.
If I get whistled, then the next ABC
starts.
And so I'm just trying to figure out
where that level of analysis becomes the most
valuable one to use.
Or we use a level of analysis where

(45:34):
we're thinking more about what is the natural
history of this species?
And how does the predatory component of that
influence our thinking?
Or does it not matter?
Or do we blame them?
I'm interested in how your brain works when
you're thinking about all of this stuff.

(45:55):
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
So when you come to a client and
they present a problem like that, how much
do you reach for your ABCs versus how

(46:16):
much do you reach for your predatory sequence
knowledge to help you put the puzzle together
about that individual dog and come up, most
importantly, for an intervention tailored to that individual?
Yeah, right.
So this is a very good question.
I do the background check.

(46:42):
I look at the training that people have
done before.
But most of the time, yeah, this is
more like a gut feeling.
I can't really tell you a certain procedure
that I take, step A, step B, step
C.
So I ask what's the most pressing problem

(47:02):
is in this moment for the dog owners.
And then we start training straight away.
So even when I see that this is
a case of pseudopredation, we need to start
training.
For example, in the case of the training
mistakes with the recall, then we build a
new recall.
We teach the dog and we start before

(47:25):
that.
For example, I give the dog owners a
task to observe their dog and reward every
behavior that they like so that the dog
gets the attention that he craves for behavior
that is acceptable and that is nice for
the owner.
And then the dog does not have to
run away to get this attention.

(47:47):
So, for example, we reward the dog for
staying on the path, for waiting, for looking
back.
And this is more my approach that I
go to.
So my understanding is that you follow a
strategy that I think a lot of people
would follow regardless of focusing on the most

(48:10):
challenging thing, if that makes sense, and then
start training straight away.
And so the predatory stuff is really helpful
in those situations though, tell me if I'm
wrong, to help understand to the best of
our ability what is going on for the
dog, what might be influencing this dog, but

(48:32):
may not be based on learning history.
Exactly.
So it's always the individual dog, but it's
also the breed.
Of course, we are taught not to see
through a breed lens all the time.
And I think it's also important to look
at the learning history, where does the dog
come from, how does the dog live, especially
when we come to pseudo predation.

(48:53):
But we have to keep in mind that
the hound is tracking and the spaniel is
quartering.
And so these are behaviors that we can
expect.
And we need to take them into consideration
when we find the training plan, because we
need to find outlets for the dog where
he can perform this behavior.

(49:15):
And this is where, of course, the breed
gives us the first hint what the dog
might enjoy.
And then we can start from there.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Thank you for sharing that with that and
for your patience with me as I
articulate my questions and my thoughts.

(49:39):
I really appreciate that because it was really
insightful and I think it'll be helpful for
the listeners.
And one insight there that I think was
really helpful that really built on where my
thinking was before you answered that was that
you look at the breed to not necessarily

(50:01):
have what you might be using at the
end of the program, but to lean on
to say it's quite likely that in this
situation for this breed with these behaviors that
are being presented, this outlet for this behavior
has a high chance of helping us in
our intervention.
Exactly.
Yeah.

(50:21):
Now, another term that I've written down here,
and again, for the listeners of the show,
me and Simone caught up last week before
recording this, and we discussed some terms to
discuss.
And one of them was predatory over-arousal.
You can't come up with all the fancy
terms.
So yeah, predatory arousal is something that goes

(50:44):
hand in hand with pseudopredation, but not only.
So it also happens to dogs that were
genetically bred for hunting tasks.
And it's something that a lot of people
find really frustrating.
And this basically means that when your dog
is in a certain environment that triggers predatory

(51:06):
behavior without that even being something around.
So here again, the breed is so important
because think of a spaniel.
I wouldn't start loose leash walking, the teaching
of loose leash walking next to a bush
with a spaniel, because I know when the
spaniel sees a bush, he's already hyper and

(51:28):
excited.
Same with a setter.
So I have a client whose setter can
be off leash in a forest, but never
ever in a field because when the setter
sees open fields, he's like, whoa, my brain
goes through the roof and he wants to
start running and circling and flushing and whatever.
So predatory over-arousal means there doesn't even

(51:53):
need to be a certain trigger and the
dog already goes into hunting mode.
And this, what does this mean for those
dogs?
It means more movement, more energy.
And when they are now held back, for
example, by a leash and they get frustrated
because they try even harder instead of saying,

(52:14):
okay, nothing around.
So I leave it be, I can walk
nicely now.
Just the opposite happens.
They try harder because they were made for
us to, we made them to find prey
for us.
And if there is no prey and we
are hunters, we want them to try harder
to get us the prey that we want.
So this is what they start doing.

(52:35):
So when there's nothing around, the hunting dogs
get even more excited than when there is
something around.
And this is also something that you need
to know when you have such a dog
because it happens all the time and people
don't understand why it happens.
Why is my dog so excited?
There is nothing around.
Why can you not walk on a loose
leash?
This is what is called predatory over-arousal.

(52:58):
It's the root cause for so many problems.
And I can appreciate that for the average
dog owner, guardian, who knows nothing, well, very
little to nothing, who knows little, this can

(53:19):
seem really confusing, really stressful, really overwhelming.
And I know we've talked about some of
them already, but do you have any other
ones to talk about in terms of what
kinds of problems, for the listeners of this
show as well, who work with clients, with
their dogs and in the household setting, what

(53:42):
kinds of problems are being presented to them
that they might not be necessarily thinking about
so much how important everything we've talked about
today is?
What kind of problems?
Yeah.
So besides the regular problems that you immediately
think about when you hear predatory behavior, which
is chasing and herding animals, grabbing, killing animals,

(54:04):
it's mainly the orientation behavior in the beginning
that makes such a big problem, because this
is why the dog is always so nervous.
So when the dog is outside, the dog
cannot listen to the owner.
The dog is completely in their own world,
not approachable, cannot react to cues, cannot take
food.

(54:24):
My dog is not food driven.
The root course, again, is not an ominous
food drive that doesn't exist.
It's the predatory overarousal, that the dog is
in such a heightened state of, I need
to find prey, I need to go for
it, that he cannot take food.
It's the same as when you are about

(54:47):
to go on a bungee jump, you are
full of adrenaline and dopamine, and then your
partner wants to give you a cookie.
It's like, what the hell?
I don't want this cookie.
So it's the same for our dogs.
They even spit a steak in front of
your feet.
There is this video on the internet with
a dog trainer bathing a steak in front

(55:08):
of a dog's nose.
The dog is lunging, screaming because he sees
sheep in the steak.
He's not interested a bit in the steak.
For this dog trainer is the proof that
positive training, reward-based training does not work.
So the consequence would be aversive measures.

(55:29):
But this shows that the basic understanding of
predatory behavior is not really given here, because
eating and food does not drive predatory behavior.
It drives predatory behavior in wolves, but it
does not drive predatory behavior in our domestic
dogs.
So we need to come up with other
things.

(55:50):
And this is what a lot of clients
come to me that they say, my dog
is completely unresponsive outside.
For example, he stares at every bird he
sees or needs to flush every bird he
sees, jumps into the leash, drags me around.

(56:11):
So these are the main problems that I
hear from my clients.
Well, I get really excited learning from you,
because I think today's episode is such a
reminder to me about how much there is
to learn.
It reminds me of how little I know,
and I get to add the knowledge from
today's episode.
But also in saying that, with the fact

(56:35):
that we've only just scratched the surface on
these topics and the tools that we can
add to our toolbox to help maybe our
own dogs or our clients who are struggling
with some of the problems you've just talked
about, it makes me excited to know that
you've got all of these other learning opportunities
online that we can go and learn from

(56:56):
in your books.
And it's strikingly stressful for me, because now
my list of things that I want to
learn gets longer and longer.
But I want to thank you, Simone, for
answering my questions today and for helping build
my understanding and the listeners of our show's
understanding of the topics we've talked about.

(57:18):
Looking at the time, I've done what I
always do, and I ask too many questions.
We need to wrap up.
So I'm going to ask you one of
the questions that I ask all of our
guests, and I just want to hear good
and especially really interested in what you had
to share, being from Germany and the culture
of Germany and the culture around dogs in
Germany and how that's different than other parts

(57:40):
of the world and the knowledge and stuff
you have in your local area.
What do you want to see happen in
our industry, Simone, over the next coming while,
over the next five to ten years?
Yeah, so what I would love to happen
is that we normalize predatory behavior as normal
dog behavior, because it's such an essential part

(58:01):
of our dog's personality.
When you think about what dogs do in
their free time, let's call it when they
enjoy themselves, when they play, when they just
do what dogs do, it's often predatory behavior.
They're displayed in play, and yeah, it makes
such a big part of their personality and

(58:22):
what they are, and it's an amazing skill
that we have, that they have, sorry, and
it's so sad that we simply want to
get rid of this, because if we find
it annoying, we find it scary, and I
can totally understand why we find it scary.
I'm scared to hell when my dogs fold
off in the woodland, and I know there

(58:42):
is maybe a street 200 meters away or
something, but still it is a natural part
of them, a big part of them, and
it's a beautiful part to observe, so I
would really like if we normalized it more
and accepted and embraced it more to work
with the dog instead of against it.

(59:02):
Yeah, well, I think if we think about
that future, the work you're doing, Simone, is
contributing to that vision, and so with that
in mind, before we wrap up, I just
want to, on behalf of all of the
listeners here listening, and myself and Animal Training

(59:23):
Academy and our global community, express gratitude to
you for the work that you're doing to
create this paradigm shift.
It's very appreciated, thank you.
Oh, thank you very much, yeah, thank you.
And just point the listeners where they can
go to continue learning from you.

(59:44):
Okay, so I'm on social media, so I
am on Instagram, on Facebook, you can find
me if you just type in predation substitute
training, I think it should come up, and
then of course I have a website, predationsubstitutetraining
.com, and on this website you can hop
on my newsletter to get a lot of

(01:00:07):
training tips and all the new things coming
up.
So with this newsletter comes a freebie, which
is a nice little game for dogs that
love to observe things with their eyes, it's
called the stalking game, and it's very beneficial
for dogs to teach them a concept that
they can actually chase things, but only with

(01:00:29):
their eyes, not with their feet.
So this comes automatically to your mailbox when
you sign up for the newsletter, and of
course on Amazon there are the books that
we talked about, Hunting Together is the basic
book that I would recommend starting with when
you want to learn about predatory behavior, and
then you can add on from there.

(01:00:49):
And then I have on my website a
very comprehensive course on predation substitute training that
gives you all the information, really all the
information that you need about predation substitute training,
about the tools, the games, the management, and
also recall how to build a super strong
recall.
It's called Call of the Chase, it's a
self-learning course, and I have put a

(01:01:12):
bonus code into the show notes that gives
you a nice discount on this course.
Wonderful, we will of course link to all
of us in the show notes.
So Simone, let's end there, and once again
thank you from myself and on behalf of
everyone listening, appreciating everything that you're doing and
making time to hang out with us at

(01:01:33):
Animal Training Academy, thank you.
Thank you very much for the invitation Ryan,
I really enjoyed being here, thank you.

(01:02:14):
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host Ryan Cartlidge signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity

(01:02:36):
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them, and
keep improving.
And don't forget, the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive

(01:03:00):
membership, where you will find a community of
trainers just like you.
Together we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome, and remember every interaction with an animal

(01:03:22):
human learner is your opportunity to create ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.

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Simone Mueller: Navigating Predatory Behavior in Dogs [Episode 239]

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