August 22, 2024 • 26 mins
You will not be surprised to hear that my first podcast of the 2024-2025 school year is about religion in schools. It's a topic I'm always coming back to and it never ceases to amaze me of how many different angles you can find from it. But what I want to explore in this episode is what do most schools mean when they talk about religion. Maybe a better title would have been, "What we talk about when we talk about religion in schools."
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hello?
Hello.
You're very welcome to ifI were the minister for
education from unsharp dot Nat.
What do most schools mean whenthey say religious education?
(00:23):
It's 20 24, 20 25.
Back to school time.
And I'm delighted to be backfor another year of if I were
the minister for education.
For those of you who don't know,this is a regular podcast, a produce.
Hosted by me, Simon Lewisfrom onshore dot Nash.
And if you are listing for the veryfirst time, I hope you enjoy it.
(00:45):
The premise of the podcast isthat I take an aspect of the
Irish primary education system.
And I look at it in detail.
And let you know what I would do ifI were the minister for education,
I hope you all had a lovely summerand maybe I've got the energy buckets
was very energy sapping year, lastyear with all the stuff going on.
(01:06):
I'm not sure how much ofthat is going to change.
But my first episodeis based on an article.
That I saw of in of all papers ofall the newspapers that I would see
an article from the Irish Catholic.
So you will not be surprised to hearthat my first podcast of 2020 for
2025 is about our religion in schools.
(01:28):
The topic I'm always coming back to.
And I'm never ceases to amazeme of how many different angles.
You can find fromage.
But what I want to explore in thisepisode is what do most schools mean?
When they talk about religion.
In schools, I think, and I don'tknow if this is deliberate or not on.
And I'm not saying it.
(01:49):
I suspect it is.
But when you hear about religionin schools, What do you think now?
Many people.
We'll think that religionmeans faith formation.
So that's, what some peoplewould call indoctrination.
So it would mean prayers.
It would mean staging, religion.
As a fact, and teaching childrenhad passing on the word of God.
(02:12):
Some people think religionmeans teaching about religions.
Learning about whatever thevarious faiths around the world.
And I think.
That's that certainly happensin some schools, but not as many
as I'd say most people think.
And where is that balance?
Where we're, where is that balancebetween religious education?
Religious instruction.
(02:34):
Are they the same thing?
And they aren't by the way.
And what is the difference betweenthem and why do we have so many ways
of describing what a religion classor a religious ethos looks like?
So that's what I'm going to explore today.
I'm going to be helped verymuch by an article that I
wrote my, that I wrote on this.
Back a few days ago on my medium blog.
(02:55):
If you are interested by the way insubscribing to this podcast, you can do
by going to your favorite podcast and.
Subscribing.
As you do, but if you're interestedin reading along to some of the
articles that are, that I base mypodcasts on, I published most of
them onSimon@mlewisdotmedium.com.
And this one is called, what domost schools mean when they say
(03:18):
religious education that waspublished around the 18th of August?
I got worse.
So maybe you're into 18th,19th, or 20th of August.
Anyway, you'll find it.
You'll find it there.
One of his writing, the article.
I always have a coverimage, a featured image.
And I usually use AI to generatethat image and the AI prompts that
I used to generate my image wasreligion class in a primary school.
(03:42):
And I was really surprisedto see what came out.
Of the AI generator, which was aclassroom, but as you would expect,
the children are sitting in rows andit's quite a multicultural classroom.
Actually, I found something interestingwas the children are in uniforms.
They're all wearing the same clothes.
But the thing that stood out to memost was across at the Christian
Cross at the back of the classroom.
(04:05):
And I felt, this is an AI generator thatdoesn't know that I'm in Ireland that
doesn't know very much about me at all.
Doesn't know anything about where it is.
As such is the prevail.
Of religion in schools.
I just thought it was interestingthat just that prompt, maybe that I'd
said religion class in primary school.
At the top was the religion.
Data was decided upon adds despite,if you look at the picture of
(04:27):
yourself, Ah, on the medium blog.
You may wonder why.
Looking at the children in theclass, but the reason I wrote this
article was on the back of thefront page of the Irish Catholic.
On the Irish Catholic reported morereligion, please say school children.
Now.
The first thing I thought.
(04:48):
When I saw this.
Was where are they get?
Not from, I thought.
An amazing thing to hear young childrensay that they want more religion in
schools ad surely they have enoughfish with 10% or 20 feet is in
sometimes a lot more than that, oftheir school day dedicated to religion.
(05:08):
Both.
I read the arch.
The front page of the articlethat I read the I carried on.
Reading it and it seemed to come from.
A study, a survey from the20th anniversary celebrations
of the ombudsman for children.
What they did was they released a surveyabout young people's thoughts on a
number of issues, including education.
And as I said, the Irish Catherinereported that the survey showed that young
(05:31):
people want more religion in schools.
I have to delve further.
I'm most people, I think we'll besurprised at such a finding so surprised.
I would say that none of the mainstreamnewspapers cover this survey at all.
I didn't see any articles in the Irishtimes, or I shouldn't abandoned or
the RTE or anything like that because.
(05:53):
I guess there's a reasonwhen stories like that.
Aren't covert.
And I decided I'd find out because.
On surprisingly, it turned out theheadline was at best misleading.
When look, when one looked at thesurvey results in closer detail.
Because when the question actuallyasked to students is what subjects.
(06:15):
So you said you think there should bemore subjects available in schools.
What new subject would you like to seeadded to the curriculum now showed out
this was secondary school students.
So this is what they did.
The options were Languages practicallife skills, computer science
and engineering, sports science.
And then they lumped religion, psychologyand drama into one of the options.
(06:39):
I don't know why all three,how the three are interlinked.
But essentially that was the most popular.
And the Irish Catholic.
Took from that.
They ignored the psychology anddrama Vish, but they said that most
children want more religion in schools.
Which is an interesting.
View of it.
But I guess.
(06:59):
I guess that's I suppose theyhave to be the eternal optimists.
However, if you were tasked me.
If I believe, and I think thisis where I want to come to is.
I'm not really interested in the, ingiving age about the Irish Catholic
and how they've, made a kind ofmanipulated the data from the survey
to suit some sort of agenda withthe the Catholic agenda in schools.
The children wanted now as it goes on inthe article, you should read the article.
(07:22):
It's quite it's very, it takes Sashaa statistic and really runs with it.
To the point of.
Yeah.
To, to beyond the point of seriousness.
In my view, but anyway, I'mnot interested in taking tests,
slagging off the Irish Catholics.
R-squared they're going todo what they're going to do.
What I'm interested inis actually looking out.
W what does this actually mean?
(07:43):
I think some of the students, andif I, in fact, I'm absolutely sure.
Many students do wantmore religion in schools.
And if you were tasked me,if I believe there should be
religion taught in schools.
Despite my campaigning for aseparation of church and state and
irons, I would emphatically say yes.
I believe.
(08:03):
We should be teaching religion in schools.
Now as many of, I don't subscribe to aparticular religion, but I believe it's
very important to learn about religions.
And from them too.
Because if you look at, if youlook at the world, as it is.
I don't subscribe to a particularreligion, but I'm in the minority.
(08:24):
I'm one of the 15% of the world thatdoesn't have a particular faith.
About 85% of the world.
Has a religion has a faith of some sort.
And to me.
I could sit there and go I'm right.
And everyone else is wrong andeveryone else is stupid and
all the rest of it, I don't.
I don't believe that Igenuinely don't believe that.
(08:46):
And I've often talked about how sometimesI feel a bit jealous of people that have.
You have a faith.
And I told the story ofmy mom when she was dying.
Has she genuinely believed she would be,at least hopefully going to heaven in her
view but genuinely believing that would bethe case and that she would see us again.
And I, as I've said before, I woulddearly love to have that faith.
(09:07):
Unfortunately I don't but it makessense to me that I should understand
why people believe, what they believe.
And I should respect those wishes,even if I don't share their beliefs.
And I, if you look at the sizeof major religious groups, it's.
About 10 years old now at this stage.
Christians are about 30 oddpercent Muslims, about 23, 20 4%
(09:29):
Hindus, about 15%, 7% Buddhists.
And then you've got, other religionstaking providers ones 2% and then folk
religions, as they're known at about 6%.
And then you've got about 15, 16% whoare on affiliated to a particular faith.
So more people believe in odd God.
Or S or gods than don't.
(09:50):
And I think it's important thatand I know we're raising our child.
W without origin, but we're also raisinghim to try and learn and understand why.
About religions.
Why people do what they do so thatwe can respect them for what they do.
Being religious is not a bad thing.
I think some people who are, who, notall people with religion, I think.
(10:12):
But some people, the religionthing, those who don't have
a religion are anti-religion.
I have no M I have no ill feelingtowards anyone who has a religion at all.
My, my kind of line in thesand is you just don't try
and convert me to your faith.
I don't want that.
I also feel that if you have a faith,you should keep that to your own family.
It's a private matter.
(10:33):
And this is why I campaign against it inthe ma in schools, in our end, because
that's where it does cross the line.
So for example, I cannot teach inthe vast majority of schools because.
I cannot uphold.
A religious ethos becauseit is not an ethos I share.
It is not a faith that I share.
I have no problem, obviously withconflict people being Catholic.
(10:54):
But but when that is used in a waythat excludes me from employment
or excludes children as partof the school day, And so on.
That's where there's a line.
You can run schools without areligion permeating through it, or a
particular faith at running throughit at, there is no I, the argument
dash, you need Catholic schools or.
(11:14):
Church of Ireland schools or Jewishschools or Muslims goes is not,
is, has no grounding whatsoever.
We teach children.
I had to be good peopleand we don't need religion.
And to to change that, I think I've oftensaid we have far more in common when
it comes to multidimensional schoolsand religious NGOs have far more in
common than they do differences andwe focus entirely on the differences,
(11:36):
but going back to why I think it'simportant to learn about religion.
I want you to give an example thatif I meet an Orthodox Jewish woman, I
believe it's up to me to know and respectthat she can't shake my hand, whether
or not I think that's silly or not.
It's not my business, whether shewants to shake my hundred nosh.
I just have to respect that.
That's what she believes.
(11:57):
And it's no skin off my back if ifI don't shake this person's hands.
Just for those who don't know, I'vemade a link in the article it's called
it's from a concept called Nikia.
And it's it explains why.
I don't have to agree with it.
I just have to respect it.
And similarly, I believe it's up to me tolearn why many Muslim women choose to wear
a hijab or another head covering ratherthan deciding myself that it's oppressive.
(12:21):
As many people do.
And again, I've linked to anarticle about the of Muslim women
speaking about the reason theychoose to wear or head covering.
However, learning about religions.
Is not what happens in the vastmajority of Irish primary schools,
religious education in most Irishprimary schools is faith forming
or confessional to use the term.
(12:43):
In fact, in Ireland, the subject ofreligion and faith schools uses the
terms, faith, formation, religion,religious education, and religious
instruction interchangeably.
If you if you're, if this is where I thinkthe confusion comes from all these terms,
even though they mean different things.
Are used interchangeablyin denominational schools.
However, they are not the same.
(13:04):
If you read that survey from the the OCO.
The ombudsman.
And you read the commentsfrom the students.
It's really clear.
To me, at least again, it's myinterpretation that students aren't
interested in faith formation.
When they say religion, it'slearning about religions.
I read one of the quotes, moreeducation about different cultures
(13:24):
and religions instead of onlystudying Christianity in schools.
I think schools that are based on one,religion discriminate all the others.
It's a very.
Some people will find dash.
A statement abrasive.
And it is, but it's prettyfactual, when you teach one.
Faith, one worldview as.
(13:45):
As fact to a group of people that don'tshare that faith, you are discriminating
them on the basis of religion is one ofthe grounds of discrimination that you
shouldn't be allowed to do any religion.
The only one to get onto explaining.
Maybe those terms and what theyprobably what they do mean.
And religious education, asopposed to religion, religious
education should be objective.
(14:08):
Critical and pluralistic.
So it needs to be all three ofthose things to be religious
education and religious instruction.
Is different.
It's faith forming in one belief.
In other words, only one perspectiveis presented as the truth.
With other beliefs, if they're mentionedat all, as alternatives to the truth
(14:31):
that you, tolerate, or maybe respect.
But it certainly isn't what wedo in our denominational school.
And that can be very isolating to someonewho is not of that faith of that school.
If they spend eight years in primaryschool listening to messages of a dash
Catholicism in most cases is the truth.
(14:54):
And yeah, we're nice to the rest of you.
We tolerate you wherever,and I don't mean that in a.
I'm not trying to be mean orrude or anything like that.
Tolerance in the nicest possible way.
I think tolerance is anotherword that has been bought.
Turn, it has been come a badword, have some sort of tolerance
is actually not a bad thing.
It's good to tolerate people.
But a tolerance is not seen as agood thing when it comes to religion,
(15:14):
but that's what you're doing.
It's not inclusion, let'ssay it's tolerance anyway.
So if we look at the current Catholicprimary program and it's eight
years syllabus, so you look at thecurrent coffee program, which is
called, I think it's growing love.
There are two weeks in total in thewhole of the eight years, not two weeks,
every year, two weeks in the full eightyear program dedicated to learning about
(15:35):
other fates I'm one week is on Judaismand the other one is on Islam and they're
presented from a Christian point of view.
And for the rest of the entire eightyears Catholicism, or maybe more widely
Christiana, she has such as a conceptis taught to the children on critically.
There is no room for anythingcritical or objective.
(15:57):
Nevermind pluralistic in it.
There is no uncertainty in thelessons offered to the children.
So you might wonder why a countrylike Ireland, which has a very low
percentage of practicing Catholics.
I know there's quitea number of Catholics.
But in name, but practicingCatholics is a far lower number.
I would accept the 90% of primary schoolsteach their children messages that they
(16:19):
themselves don't particularly believe.
So you have, I think you would,the statistical moment is
people are around parent to age.
This is about 50 odd,50, 53% apparent aged.
Irish people.
R a.
Identify as Catholic and thecensus and the most recent census.
Yet.
(16:40):
Most of them have absolutely no problems.
Sending their kids to a Catholic primaryschool where they receive faith formation.
And I find that reallydifficult to understand and.
I can only resolve.
To me.
That I think the blurring ofwhat religion means when these
schools talk about religion.
(17:02):
Is where this is coming from.
For example, if you look at any ofthe Catholic agencies in Ireland,
they will always refer to religion.
They never refer to.
Religious instruction really?
They were fair to the religiousinstruction, his skills,
his religious education.
They refuse to accept it as faith forming.
And I've said this, your faith forme is that we're not faith forming.
(17:23):
We're inviting the children tolearn, and they become a ghast if
I describe it as indoctrination.
And by the way, just for those ofyou who find the word indoctrination,
absolutely appalling as well in her ears,seeding an anger at me at the moment.
Indoctrination just means the processof teaching a person or a group to
accept a set of beliefs on critically.
Which is exactly what happenswhen it comes to faith formation
(17:46):
in Irish primary schools.
It's just, it's not that you're forcingsomething down the throats of children,
as people think indoctrination is,it's just teaching something without
criticism, that's indoctrination.
And if one looks at most Christian runprimary schools in Ireland, which is
basically which is basically most ofthe denominational schools bar three,
one will see a sentence similar to this.
(18:07):
It will be, it won't be exactly this,but something similar in our school.
We believe in a Christian God, butwe are happy to accept other faith.
And none in our community and on thesurface, that really seems very welcoming.
Doesn't it?
We're happy to accepteverybody into our school.
We don't mind what you believe.
In fact, if you don't believe at all,you are very welcome in our school,
(18:28):
but it doesn't take much to break down.
What I can only describe asanimal farm language here.
All animals are equal, but someanimals are more equal than others is
a way of doing it of saying it didn'tschools call themselves inclusive.
So they talk about, we are an inclusiveCatholic school and some of them go
(18:48):
further if they're a single sex schooland say they're an inclusive Catholic
girls school, despite excluding.
Boys and yeah.
But they in call themselvesinclusive to all fates and none.
And I've written about this andloads of lots of different ways,
because I don't actually think theyknow what inclusion really means.
And I'd recommend ifyou have a bit of time.
Too.
It's one of my biggest bugbearsabout what does inclusion actually
(19:09):
mean in a Catholic school.
And I don't think they actually, I supposewhat they actually mean is tolerance.
Because, at the end of the day, noIrish primary school, including the
multidimensional skills can be fullyinclusive for a number of reasons.
And I'm not just talkingabout religion here.
I'm talking about special education.
I'm talking about lots ofdifferent issues, but any school
that calls themselves inclusive,isn't working hard enough.
(19:30):
Anyway, the blurring of the definitionsof religious education and religious
instruction has been wildly successful.
In my view for denominationaleducation, by doing this, it's,
they've managed to retain an illusionthat Irish primary schools are not.
Contravening, any equality laws.
It's successfully high.
He's buying the fact that theysee absolutely no difference
between instruction and education.
(19:53):
And this allows faithformation to continue.
And about 95% of Irish primary schoolssupported by this kind of thin veil
of proof that this is what parents.
And now students, once you'll oftenhear about that's a parents want these.
Religion religious schools.
And there's no real proof of that big.
(20:16):
And to be honest with it, there'sapathy by the looks of things.
But certainly not certainly not a want.
Advocacy groups do try their best to tryand help parents and students understand
there is a difference between religiousinstruction and religious education.
But it's a really difficult task and theparents aren't in the classroom, they
don't S they don't know what goes onall the time in this, in the schools.
(20:39):
I do I've holes in these skillsand it's, if you were there, you
would shirk a number of times.
Maybe he wouldn't.
This is the thing I think the wholecultural Catholicism that exists is a
lot of things are seen as totally normal.
Do you know what I mean?
You look at.
You look at the idea of most Irishpeople will, be appalled at, let's
say arranged marriages, where you seelittle girls wearing wedding dresses
(21:01):
in countries like India, Pakistan,where there's where this can happen.
I, and yes, they don't see that.
Communion dress is it's a miniwedding dress, these kinds of things.
And I know that.
That might sound trite.
And maybe it's not a goodexample, but I think.
We see things through certain eyes.
And I think a lot of Irishpeople who have gone through the
(21:22):
Catholic system themselves, Idon't shirk at certain things.
I don't know a picture of aman being nailed to a cross.
And, children being asked to colora man, these kinds of things, or
do you know the famous one that.
That did seem to make people surewas that there was a lesson in senior
infants or first costs were an angelcomes through the window to a young
Marriott and are served, to you.
And, I don't do not be afraid.
(21:44):
And it's like a stranger comingin my window kind of thing.
But, you it's amazinghow blinkered I would be.
I would have been guilty of this inmy own faith upbringing of things that
just, I wouldn't, I would shark out now.
But so I can see, I supposeI'm laboring the point here.
It is a very difficult task.
And when a society has been instructed inthe same message for so many generations,
(22:06):
it can be hard to get a differentmessage through particular, most believe.
Even if they don't like it.
They feel it didn't do them any harm.
Sure.
What harm?
I don't believe in it anymore.
Anyway.
Sure.
Look, isn't the best.
It's no harm anyway, tosend the kid in there.
They're not going to be diva either.
However, I would argue that peoplemight look beyond themselves and
(22:26):
their own experiences go and maybefor maybe try and put themselves in
the shoes of children teachers wherethe system of religious instruction.
Does cause harm.
And I think this is where this is probablythe key here that I think a lot of Irish
people, particularly Irish people, andmaybe people who are in countries who come
from countries where Catholic educationis the norm, is that they see it as no
(22:48):
harm because it did damn no harm, butthey need to, in my view, you need to put
yourself in the shoes of other people.
So these are the children that have tosit at the back of classrooms every single
day, while faith formation is going onwhile they're excluded from the rest of
their task, their visitors in their own.
And costume.
These are the teachers that have topretend to be practicing Christians,
(23:10):
to be missionaries, to lead worship, toensure they pass on that faith that you
don't take very serious for yourselfto the children, whether or not they
believe in that message themselves.
And if they can't do this, or if it'sperceived that they can't do this,
they're on able to get a job or theycould be fired from their job where
they could be disciplined for it.
From the job where they could belooked over for promotion and so on.
(23:33):
And there's many stories of those ofthese things happening and coming out.
I don't want to give a shoutout to education equality.
A lobby group, who's percolatingthese stories and they're well
worth a visit on Instagram.
If you're on them and have a look at someof the stories that teachers and parents
are sending in of the harm that is causedby religious instruction in schools.
And if parents and students understoodwhat religion actually meant in their
(23:58):
child's primary school, isn't religiouseducation, it is religious instruction.
Perhaps it would make a difference.
And as you can see from the IrishCatholics interpretation of the
Children's ombudsman survey.
They are masters.
I presented informationin a particular manner.
And by leaving at psychology and dramaand by failing to define religion.
(24:21):
At best their headline is misleading.
Perhaps to borrow their own phrase, itbetter, it might be better described.
As sin.
By omission.
So there you have myfirst episode for 24, 25.
I always like to talk about thistopic and if you have any comments
(24:42):
yourself and you're interestedin contribution in any way to the
discussion I am still on Twitter or axes.
I.
I do feel I want to leave it.
I'm what I am trying to do is I'm setting,I've set up a newsletter which I'd
love you to subscribe to on shaw.net/.
Slash subscribe where I'm going tobe, giving people, subscribers the
opportunity to talk a little bit more.
(25:03):
I also get bonus and material foranyone who's subscribed to the
newsletter, which is I look fora newspaper articles that appear.
And in the media.
That I find really interesting andI get some comments on them, but
it's also interesting to know foryou to maybe have a look yourself.
And I also give because I havea background in technology.
I also give some technology tipswhich you can have a look at, and
(25:25):
there are also on the YouTube channel.
The podcast is no longergoing to be on YouTube.
I've decided after looking at the views.
For all the effort of videoing myselfand actually having to be dressed.
What I do this in, in, in decentclothes, I am dressed when I'm doing
this as a podcast, just for the record.
It'd be probably wasn't Worth the effort.
So you're going to have to goback to listening to the podcast.
(25:48):
Anyway, that is it for me.
Love to hear from you.
As I said, please subscribe ononshore.net/subscribe or go to your
favorite podcasts and talk format.
And please leave a review.
If you've enjoyed this episode becauseit helps other teachers and other
people find, add the podcast more easy.
That's it for me from this week.
Thanks so much for this thing.
All the very, very best bye-bye.
Hello?
Hello.
You're very welcome to ifI were the minister for
education from unsharp dot Nat.
What do most schools mean whenthey say religious education?
(00:23):
It's 20 24, 20 25.
Back to school time.
And I'm delighted to be backfor another year of if I were
the minister for education.
For those of you who don't know,this is a regular podcast, a produce.
Hosted by me, Simon Lewisfrom onshore dot Nash.
And if you are listing for the veryfirst time, I hope you enjoy it.
(00:45):
The premise of the podcast isthat I take an aspect of the
Irish primary education system.
And I look at it in detail.
And let you know what I would do ifI were the minister for education,
I hope you all had a lovely summerand maybe I've got the energy buckets
was very energy sapping year, lastyear with all the stuff going on.
(01:06):
I'm not sure how much ofthat is going to change.
But my first episodeis based on an article.
That I saw of in of all papers ofall the newspapers that I would see
an article from the Irish Catholic.
So you will not be surprised to hearthat my first podcast of 2020 for
2025 is about our religion in schools.
(01:28):
The topic I'm always coming back to.
And I'm never ceases to amazeme of how many different angles.
You can find fromage.
But what I want to explore in thisepisode is what do most schools mean?
When they talk about religion.
In schools, I think, and I don'tknow if this is deliberate or not on.
And I'm not saying it.
(01:49):
I suspect it is.
But when you hear about religionin schools, What do you think now?
Many people.
We'll think that religionmeans faith formation.
So that's, what some peoplewould call indoctrination.
So it would mean prayers.
It would mean staging, religion.
As a fact, and teaching childrenhad passing on the word of God.
(02:12):
Some people think religionmeans teaching about religions.
Learning about whatever thevarious faiths around the world.
And I think.
That's that certainly happensin some schools, but not as many
as I'd say most people think.
And where is that balance?
Where we're, where is that balancebetween religious education?
Religious instruction.
(02:34):
Are they the same thing?
And they aren't by the way.
And what is the difference betweenthem and why do we have so many ways
of describing what a religion classor a religious ethos looks like?
So that's what I'm going to explore today.
I'm going to be helped verymuch by an article that I
wrote my, that I wrote on this.
Back a few days ago on my medium blog.
(02:55):
If you are interested by the way insubscribing to this podcast, you can do
by going to your favorite podcast and.
Subscribing.
As you do, but if you're interestedin reading along to some of the
articles that are, that I base mypodcasts on, I published most of
them onSimon@mlewisdotmedium.com.
And this one is called, what domost schools mean when they say
(03:18):
religious education that waspublished around the 18th of August?
I got worse.
So maybe you're into 18th,19th, or 20th of August.
Anyway, you'll find it.
You'll find it there.
One of his writing, the article.
I always have a coverimage, a featured image.
And I usually use AI to generatethat image and the AI prompts that
I used to generate my image wasreligion class in a primary school.
(03:42):
And I was really surprisedto see what came out.
Of the AI generator, which was aclassroom, but as you would expect,
the children are sitting in rows andit's quite a multicultural classroom.
Actually, I found something interestingwas the children are in uniforms.
They're all wearing the same clothes.
But the thing that stood out to memost was across at the Christian
Cross at the back of the classroom.
(04:05):
And I felt, this is an AI generator thatdoesn't know that I'm in Ireland that
doesn't know very much about me at all.
Doesn't know anything about where it is.
As such is the prevail.
Of religion in schools.
I just thought it was interestingthat just that prompt, maybe that I'd
said religion class in primary school.
At the top was the religion.
Data was decided upon adds despite,if you look at the picture of
(04:27):
yourself, Ah, on the medium blog.
You may wonder why.
Looking at the children in theclass, but the reason I wrote this
article was on the back of thefront page of the Irish Catholic.
On the Irish Catholic reported morereligion, please say school children.
Now.
The first thing I thought.
(04:48):
When I saw this.
Was where are they get?
Not from, I thought.
An amazing thing to hear young childrensay that they want more religion in
schools ad surely they have enoughfish with 10% or 20 feet is in
sometimes a lot more than that, oftheir school day dedicated to religion.
(05:08):
Both.
I read the arch.
The front page of the articlethat I read the I carried on.
Reading it and it seemed to come from.
A study, a survey from the20th anniversary celebrations
of the ombudsman for children.
What they did was they released a surveyabout young people's thoughts on a
number of issues, including education.
And as I said, the Irish Catherinereported that the survey showed that young
(05:31):
people want more religion in schools.
I have to delve further.
I'm most people, I think we'll besurprised at such a finding so surprised.
I would say that none of the mainstreamnewspapers cover this survey at all.
I didn't see any articles in the Irishtimes, or I shouldn't abandoned or
the RTE or anything like that because.
(05:53):
I guess there's a reasonwhen stories like that.
Aren't covert.
And I decided I'd find out because.
On surprisingly, it turned out theheadline was at best misleading.
When look, when one looked at thesurvey results in closer detail.
Because when the question actuallyasked to students is what subjects.
(06:15):
So you said you think there should bemore subjects available in schools.
What new subject would you like to seeadded to the curriculum now showed out
this was secondary school students.
So this is what they did.
The options were Languages practicallife skills, computer science
and engineering, sports science.
And then they lumped religion, psychologyand drama into one of the options.
(06:39):
I don't know why all three,how the three are interlinked.
But essentially that was the most popular.
And the Irish Catholic.
Took from that.
They ignored the psychology anddrama Vish, but they said that most
children want more religion in schools.
Which is an interesting.
View of it.
But I guess.
(06:59):
I guess that's I suppose theyhave to be the eternal optimists.
However, if you were tasked me.
If I believe, and I think thisis where I want to come to is.
I'm not really interested in the, ingiving age about the Irish Catholic
and how they've, made a kind ofmanipulated the data from the survey
to suit some sort of agenda withthe the Catholic agenda in schools.
The children wanted now as it goes on inthe article, you should read the article.
(07:22):
It's quite it's very, it takes Sashaa statistic and really runs with it.
To the point of.
Yeah.
To, to beyond the point of seriousness.
In my view, but anyway, I'mnot interested in taking tests,
slagging off the Irish Catholics.
R-squared they're going todo what they're going to do.
What I'm interested inis actually looking out.
W what does this actually mean?
(07:43):
I think some of the students, andif I, in fact, I'm absolutely sure.
Many students do wantmore religion in schools.
And if you were tasked me,if I believe there should be
religion taught in schools.
Despite my campaigning for aseparation of church and state and
irons, I would emphatically say yes.
I believe.
(08:03):
We should be teaching religion in schools.
Now as many of, I don't subscribe to aparticular religion, but I believe it's
very important to learn about religions.
And from them too.
Because if you look at, if youlook at the world, as it is.
I don't subscribe to a particularreligion, but I'm in the minority.
(08:24):
I'm one of the 15% of the world thatdoesn't have a particular faith.
About 85% of the world.
Has a religion has a faith of some sort.
And to me.
I could sit there and go I'm right.
And everyone else is wrong andeveryone else is stupid and
all the rest of it, I don't.
I don't believe that Igenuinely don't believe that.
(08:46):
And I've often talked about how sometimesI feel a bit jealous of people that have.
You have a faith.
And I told the story ofmy mom when she was dying.
Has she genuinely believed she would be,at least hopefully going to heaven in her
view but genuinely believing that would bethe case and that she would see us again.
And I, as I've said before, I woulddearly love to have that faith.
(09:07):
Unfortunately I don't but it makessense to me that I should understand
why people believe, what they believe.
And I should respect those wishes,even if I don't share their beliefs.
And I, if you look at the sizeof major religious groups, it's.
About 10 years old now at this stage.
Christians are about 30 oddpercent Muslims, about 23, 20 4%
(09:29):
Hindus, about 15%, 7% Buddhists.
And then you've got, other religionstaking providers ones 2% and then folk
religions, as they're known at about 6%.
And then you've got about 15, 16% whoare on affiliated to a particular faith.
So more people believe in odd God.
Or S or gods than don't.
(09:50):
And I think it's important thatand I know we're raising our child.
W without origin, but we're also raisinghim to try and learn and understand why.
About religions.
Why people do what they do so thatwe can respect them for what they do.
Being religious is not a bad thing.
I think some people who are, who, notall people with religion, I think.
(10:12):
But some people, the religionthing, those who don't have
a religion are anti-religion.
I have no M I have no ill feelingtowards anyone who has a religion at all.
My, my kind of line in thesand is you just don't try
and convert me to your faith.
I don't want that.
I also feel that if you have a faith,you should keep that to your own family.
It's a private matter.
(10:33):
And this is why I campaign against it inthe ma in schools, in our end, because
that's where it does cross the line.
So for example, I cannot teach inthe vast majority of schools because.
I cannot uphold.
A religious ethos becauseit is not an ethos I share.
It is not a faith that I share.
I have no problem, obviously withconflict people being Catholic.
(10:54):
But but when that is used in a waythat excludes me from employment
or excludes children as partof the school day, And so on.
That's where there's a line.
You can run schools without areligion permeating through it, or a
particular faith at running throughit at, there is no I, the argument
dash, you need Catholic schools or.
(11:14):
Church of Ireland schools or Jewishschools or Muslims goes is not,
is, has no grounding whatsoever.
We teach children.
I had to be good peopleand we don't need religion.
And to to change that, I think I've oftensaid we have far more in common when
it comes to multidimensional schoolsand religious NGOs have far more in
common than they do differences andwe focus entirely on the differences,
(11:36):
but going back to why I think it'simportant to learn about religion.
I want you to give an example thatif I meet an Orthodox Jewish woman, I
believe it's up to me to know and respectthat she can't shake my hand, whether
or not I think that's silly or not.
It's not my business, whether shewants to shake my hundred nosh.
I just have to respect that.
That's what she believes.
(11:57):
And it's no skin off my back if ifI don't shake this person's hands.
Just for those who don't know, I'vemade a link in the article it's called
it's from a concept called Nikia.
And it's it explains why.
I don't have to agree with it.
I just have to respect it.
And similarly, I believe it's up to me tolearn why many Muslim women choose to wear
a hijab or another head covering ratherthan deciding myself that it's oppressive.
(12:21):
As many people do.
And again, I've linked to anarticle about the of Muslim women
speaking about the reason theychoose to wear or head covering.
However, learning about religions.
Is not what happens in the vastmajority of Irish primary schools,
religious education in most Irishprimary schools is faith forming
or confessional to use the term.
(12:43):
In fact, in Ireland, the subject ofreligion and faith schools uses the
terms, faith, formation, religion,religious education, and religious
instruction interchangeably.
If you if you're, if this is where I thinkthe confusion comes from all these terms,
even though they mean different things.
Are used interchangeablyin denominational schools.
However, they are not the same.
(13:04):
If you read that survey from the the OCO.
The ombudsman.
And you read the commentsfrom the students.
It's really clear.
To me, at least again, it's myinterpretation that students aren't
interested in faith formation.
When they say religion, it'slearning about religions.
I read one of the quotes, moreeducation about different cultures
(13:24):
and religions instead of onlystudying Christianity in schools.
I think schools that are based on one,religion discriminate all the others.
It's a very.
Some people will find dash.
A statement abrasive.
And it is, but it's prettyfactual, when you teach one.
Faith, one worldview as.
(13:45):
As fact to a group of people that don'tshare that faith, you are discriminating
them on the basis of religion is one ofthe grounds of discrimination that you
shouldn't be allowed to do any religion.
The only one to get onto explaining.
Maybe those terms and what theyprobably what they do mean.
And religious education, asopposed to religion, religious
education should be objective.
(14:08):
Critical and pluralistic.
So it needs to be all three ofthose things to be religious
education and religious instruction.
Is different.
It's faith forming in one belief.
In other words, only one perspectiveis presented as the truth.
With other beliefs, if they're mentionedat all, as alternatives to the truth
(14:31):
that you, tolerate, or maybe respect.
But it certainly isn't what wedo in our denominational school.
And that can be very isolating to someonewho is not of that faith of that school.
If they spend eight years in primaryschool listening to messages of a dash
Catholicism in most cases is the truth.
(14:54):
And yeah, we're nice to the rest of you.
We tolerate you wherever,and I don't mean that in a.
I'm not trying to be mean orrude or anything like that.
Tolerance in the nicest possible way.
I think tolerance is anotherword that has been bought.
Turn, it has been come a badword, have some sort of tolerance
is actually not a bad thing.
It's good to tolerate people.
But a tolerance is not seen as agood thing when it comes to religion,
(15:14):
but that's what you're doing.
It's not inclusion, let'ssay it's tolerance anyway.
So if we look at the current Catholicprimary program and it's eight
years syllabus, so you look at thecurrent coffee program, which is
called, I think it's growing love.
There are two weeks in total in thewhole of the eight years, not two weeks,
every year, two weeks in the full eightyear program dedicated to learning about
(15:35):
other fates I'm one week is on Judaismand the other one is on Islam and they're
presented from a Christian point of view.
And for the rest of the entire eightyears Catholicism, or maybe more widely
Christiana, she has such as a conceptis taught to the children on critically.
There is no room for anythingcritical or objective.
(15:57):
Nevermind pluralistic in it.
There is no uncertainty in thelessons offered to the children.
So you might wonder why a countrylike Ireland, which has a very low
percentage of practicing Catholics.
I know there's quitea number of Catholics.
But in name, but practicingCatholics is a far lower number.
I would accept the 90% of primary schoolsteach their children messages that they
(16:19):
themselves don't particularly believe.
So you have, I think you would,the statistical moment is
people are around parent to age.
This is about 50 odd,50, 53% apparent aged.
Irish people.
R a.
Identify as Catholic and thecensus and the most recent census.
Yet.
(16:40):
Most of them have absolutely no problems.
Sending their kids to a Catholic primaryschool where they receive faith formation.
And I find that reallydifficult to understand and.
I can only resolve.
To me.
That I think the blurring ofwhat religion means when these
schools talk about religion.
(17:02):
Is where this is coming from.
For example, if you look at any ofthe Catholic agencies in Ireland,
they will always refer to religion.
They never refer to.
Religious instruction really?
They were fair to the religiousinstruction, his skills,
his religious education.
They refuse to accept it as faith forming.
And I've said this, your faith forme is that we're not faith forming.
(17:23):
We're inviting the children tolearn, and they become a ghast if
I describe it as indoctrination.
And by the way, just for those ofyou who find the word indoctrination,
absolutely appalling as well in her ears,seeding an anger at me at the moment.
Indoctrination just means the processof teaching a person or a group to
accept a set of beliefs on critically.
Which is exactly what happenswhen it comes to faith formation
(17:46):
in Irish primary schools.
It's just, it's not that you're forcingsomething down the throats of children,
as people think indoctrination is,it's just teaching something without
criticism, that's indoctrination.
And if one looks at most Christian runprimary schools in Ireland, which is
basically which is basically most ofthe denominational schools bar three,
one will see a sentence similar to this.
(18:07):
It will be, it won't be exactly this,but something similar in our school.
We believe in a Christian God, butwe are happy to accept other faith.
And none in our community and on thesurface, that really seems very welcoming.
Doesn't it?
We're happy to accepteverybody into our school.
We don't mind what you believe.
In fact, if you don't believe at all,you are very welcome in our school,
(18:28):
but it doesn't take much to break down.
What I can only describe asanimal farm language here.
All animals are equal, but someanimals are more equal than others is
a way of doing it of saying it didn'tschools call themselves inclusive.
So they talk about, we are an inclusiveCatholic school and some of them go
(18:48):
further if they're a single sex schooland say they're an inclusive Catholic
girls school, despite excluding.
Boys and yeah.
But they in call themselvesinclusive to all fates and none.
And I've written about this andloads of lots of different ways,
because I don't actually think theyknow what inclusion really means.
And I'd recommend ifyou have a bit of time.
Too.
It's one of my biggest bugbearsabout what does inclusion actually
(19:09):
mean in a Catholic school.
And I don't think they actually, I supposewhat they actually mean is tolerance.
Because, at the end of the day, noIrish primary school, including the
multidimensional skills can be fullyinclusive for a number of reasons.
And I'm not just talkingabout religion here.
I'm talking about special education.
I'm talking about lots ofdifferent issues, but any school
that calls themselves inclusive,isn't working hard enough.
(19:30):
Anyway, the blurring of the definitionsof religious education and religious
instruction has been wildly successful.
In my view for denominationaleducation, by doing this, it's,
they've managed to retain an illusionthat Irish primary schools are not.
Contravening, any equality laws.
It's successfully high.
He's buying the fact that theysee absolutely no difference
between instruction and education.
(19:53):
And this allows faithformation to continue.
And about 95% of Irish primary schoolssupported by this kind of thin veil
of proof that this is what parents.
And now students, once you'll oftenhear about that's a parents want these.
Religion religious schools.
And there's no real proof of that big.
(20:16):
And to be honest with it, there'sapathy by the looks of things.
But certainly not certainly not a want.
Advocacy groups do try their best to tryand help parents and students understand
there is a difference between religiousinstruction and religious education.
But it's a really difficult task and theparents aren't in the classroom, they
don't S they don't know what goes onall the time in this, in the schools.
(20:39):
I do I've holes in these skillsand it's, if you were there, you
would shirk a number of times.
Maybe he wouldn't.
This is the thing I think the wholecultural Catholicism that exists is a
lot of things are seen as totally normal.
Do you know what I mean?
You look at.
You look at the idea of most Irishpeople will, be appalled at, let's
say arranged marriages, where you seelittle girls wearing wedding dresses
(21:01):
in countries like India, Pakistan,where there's where this can happen.
I, and yes, they don't see that.
Communion dress is it's a miniwedding dress, these kinds of things.
And I know that.
That might sound trite.
And maybe it's not a goodexample, but I think.
We see things through certain eyes.
And I think a lot of Irishpeople who have gone through the
(21:22):
Catholic system themselves, Idon't shirk at certain things.
I don't know a picture of aman being nailed to a cross.
And, children being asked to colora man, these kinds of things, or
do you know the famous one that.
That did seem to make people surewas that there was a lesson in senior
infants or first costs were an angelcomes through the window to a young
Marriott and are served, to you.
And, I don't do not be afraid.
(21:44):
And it's like a stranger comingin my window kind of thing.
But, you it's amazinghow blinkered I would be.
I would have been guilty of this inmy own faith upbringing of things that
just, I wouldn't, I would shark out now.
But so I can see, I supposeI'm laboring the point here.
It is a very difficult task.
And when a society has been instructed inthe same message for so many generations,
(22:06):
it can be hard to get a differentmessage through particular, most believe.
Even if they don't like it.
They feel it didn't do them any harm.
Sure.
What harm?
I don't believe in it anymore.
Anyway.
Sure.
Look, isn't the best.
It's no harm anyway, tosend the kid in there.
They're not going to be diva either.
However, I would argue that peoplemight look beyond themselves and
(22:26):
their own experiences go and maybefor maybe try and put themselves in
the shoes of children teachers wherethe system of religious instruction.
Does cause harm.
And I think this is where this is probablythe key here that I think a lot of Irish
people, particularly Irish people, andmaybe people who are in countries who come
from countries where Catholic educationis the norm, is that they see it as no
(22:48):
harm because it did damn no harm, butthey need to, in my view, you need to put
yourself in the shoes of other people.
So these are the children that have tosit at the back of classrooms every single
day, while faith formation is going onwhile they're excluded from the rest of
their task, their visitors in their own.
And costume.
These are the teachers that have topretend to be practicing Christians,
(23:10):
to be missionaries, to lead worship, toensure they pass on that faith that you
don't take very serious for yourselfto the children, whether or not they
believe in that message themselves.
And if they can't do this, or if it'sperceived that they can't do this,
they're on able to get a job or theycould be fired from their job where
they could be disciplined for it.
From the job where they could belooked over for promotion and so on.
(23:33):
And there's many stories of those ofthese things happening and coming out.
I don't want to give a shoutout to education equality.
A lobby group, who's percolatingthese stories and they're well
worth a visit on Instagram.
If you're on them and have a look at someof the stories that teachers and parents
are sending in of the harm that is causedby religious instruction in schools.
And if parents and students understoodwhat religion actually meant in their
(23:58):
child's primary school, isn't religiouseducation, it is religious instruction.
Perhaps it would make a difference.
And as you can see from the IrishCatholics interpretation of the
Children's ombudsman survey.
They are masters.
I presented informationin a particular manner.
And by leaving at psychology and dramaand by failing to define religion.
(24:21):
At best their headline is misleading.
Perhaps to borrow their own phrase, itbetter, it might be better described.
As sin.
By omission.
So there you have myfirst episode for 24, 25.
I always like to talk about thistopic and if you have any comments
(24:42):
yourself and you're interestedin contribution in any way to the
discussion I am still on Twitter or axes.
I.
I do feel I want to leave it.
I'm what I am trying to do is I'm setting,I've set up a newsletter which I'd
love you to subscribe to on shaw.net/.
Slash subscribe where I'm going tobe, giving people, subscribers the
opportunity to talk a little bit more.
(25:03):
I also get bonus and material foranyone who's subscribed to the
newsletter, which is I look fora newspaper articles that appear.
And in the media.
That I find really interesting andI get some comments on them, but
it's also interesting to know foryou to maybe have a look yourself.
And I also give because I havea background in technology.
I also give some technology tipswhich you can have a look at, and
(25:25):
there are also on the YouTube channel.
The podcast is no longergoing to be on YouTube.
I've decided after looking at the views.
For all the effort of videoing myselfand actually having to be dressed.
What I do this in, in, in decentclothes, I am dressed when I'm doing
this as a podcast, just for the record.
It'd be probably wasn't Worth the effort.
So you're going to have to goback to listening to the podcast.
(25:48):
Anyway, that is it for me.
Love to hear from you.
As I said, please subscribe ononshore.net/subscribe or go to your
favorite podcasts and talk format.
And please leave a review.
If you've enjoyed this episode becauseit helps other teachers and other
people find, add the podcast more easy.
That's it for me from this week.
Thanks so much for this thing.
All the very, very best bye-bye.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.