November 1, 2025 • 42 mins
In this podcast episode, we engage in an enlightening discourse with Amy Young, Executive Vice President of Strategic Relations for Old World Spices, as she delineates the intricacies of entering the spice market. We commence by emphasizing the burgeoning interest in barbecue and backyard cooking, which serves as a formidable trend influencing consumer preferences. Young expounds upon the essential narratives and backstories that distinguish successful spice brands in a saturated market, advocating for authenticity and unique flavor profiles. Furthermore, we explore the critical importance of strategic labeling and understanding consumer demographics, particularly in competitive retail environments. Our conversation provides invaluable insights for aspiring entrepreneurs in the culinary realm, offering guidance on how to navigate the complexities of product development and market entry.
Links referenced in this episode:
- paintedhillsnaturalbeef
- oregondungeness
- heritagesteel
- gunterwilhelmknives
- barbecuenationjt
- paintedhillsbeef
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Painted Hills Natural Beef
- Old World Spices
- Gunter Wilhelm Knives
- Hammerstahl
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
OP3 - https://op3.dev/privacy
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
It's time for Barbecue Nationwith jt.
So fire up your grill, lightthe charcoal and get your smoker
cooking.
Now from the Turnip Go Burnettstudios in Portland, here's jt.
This is an encore.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome to the nation.
That's Barbecue Nation.
I'm JT along with my co hostand co pilot and co commander Leanne
Whippen.
And the usual group ofsuspects hanging around the Turn
(00:21):
It Don't Burnet studios herein the Portland area.
Also, this show is broadcastproudly on the USA Radio Networks.
We'd like to thank the folksat Painted Hills Natural Beef Beef
the way N intended.
You can check them out atPainted Hills Natural Beef online.
And you don't have a store inyour area.
They do some online storestuff, little shipping, special cuts
(00:43):
and things for you.
So check those out.
Well, if you've ever wanted tobe in the spice business, God help
you.
We we've got the lady thattoday on the show from Old World
Spices, Amy Young is going tobe with us here and just two seconds
and she's going to tell youall the do's and don'ts and whys
(01:04):
and why nots in the spice business.
Amy, welcome.
Yes, welcome.
Hello, Jeff.
Hi, Leanne.
Hello.
We just saw you in Texas atthe National Barbecue convention
and you headed up one of theseminars which was packed house because
everybody does want to know.
There are so many people thatwant to start their own sauces, rubs
(01:26):
and what have you.
And you are an expert in the field.
So.
Yeah, let's hear it.
Well, thank you very much.
I was very happy.
This was the third time I'vegotten to present at the mbpqa and
I like to always try to dosomething a little different.
So this year was fun to get to.
They asked me to come talkabout trends and made it really easy
because barbecue and backyardcooking is the biggest trend out
(01:48):
there right now.
So if somebody walks in offthe street, that wouldn't of course
be Leanna or myself.
But if somebody walked in offthe street and said, hey, Amy, I've
got this rub that's been in myfamily for 354 years.
How do I get it to market?
And you know, we know it's theabsolute best thing out there.
(02:13):
You know, it's got to be topshelf stuff, what do you tell them?
What do you do for them?
Well, first you got to get alittle bit of their backstory.
You know, just the fact thatthey have an old family recipe is
great, but I always try to getthem to Tell me a little bit more
about where's their authority.
They have an old familyrestaurant that's been around forever
that has a good following.
(02:33):
Are they a competitionbarbecue cook?
There's so many rubs andsauces out there that if I can't
build a story to the consumerabout why yours is going to stand
out or be different or needsto go home and be in your kitchen,
I mean, it's just you're kindof a losing battle.
So I always try to start offthere, and then you'd be surprised
how many people come to me andI'll say, well, do you have the recipe?
(02:57):
Well, yeah, I do.
And then they bring it out andit's like, well, it's a little bit
of, you know, this brandseasoning, salt, and then I'm adding
some of this barbecue rub.
And then I've got somebodyelse's, you know, garlic, pepper
or everything, bagel seasoning.
They don't really have a recipe.
They're using, you know, anumber of different commercial products
(03:17):
Now.
My R and D lab is phenomenal.
They can still break thatdown, but it's just a lot.
It's a lot more work.
So, you know, we're going tohave to back up.
We're going to have tovalidate you a little bit as to why
are we going to dedicate our Rand D time to you to break this down
and do this.
Because we want to make sureif we invest our time, you're investing
(03:38):
your time and money that hasgrounds to be successful.
The other thing people don'tthink about a lot of times is where
they're going to sell their product.
Everybody's going to buy itbecause it's great.
Well, where do you want tosell it?
Well, I want to be in Walmart.
Okay, well, that's a great endgame to go for, but it's probably
not your beginning game.
So we try to talk them throughwhat the different channels of sales
(03:58):
are, you know, startinglocally and trying to grow out, trying
to get, you know, gain yourfollowing in your own backyard before
you try to go to the highexpense of taking something nationwide.
I know when I did it, this was.
And we've talked about this,and Leanne's heard me talk about
this stuff ad nauseam, I'm sure.
But when I went into thecompany that was doing mine here
(04:22):
in the Northwest, I had itdown to regular kitchen measurements,
if you will.
You know, half a cup of this,2 tablespoons of this, whatever.
But then what you were sayingis they came Back and they made some,
but they broke it down into,like, grams.
(04:45):
And then they.
They gave me a sample andsaid, is this how it's supposed to
taste?
And they were actually verymuch right on.
So that was fine.
But I can see where somebodythat comes in with a.
Well, we do a pinch of thisand a little paprika and this and
that, and then, yeah, your R Dfolks in the lab can break that down,
(05:07):
but the chances of it beingexactly the same are pretty rough.
Yeah.
And the other thing toconsider is I had this challenge
when I first was working withmy dad on pig powder, is that there
are different types ofpaprika, different heats of chili
powder, cayenne and all.
You know, it depends, I guess,Amy, on the products that you're
(05:28):
using and your R and D, youknow, tries to.
I mean, do you ask the people for.
Are you using just McCormickor Tones to try to figure out how
to get close to that flavor profile?
It's really interesting, Leigh.
And there are so, like yousaid, so many different paprikas,
so many different meshes ofblack pepper.
And a mesh is the size of the particulate.
(05:50):
So if you picture a windowscreen, and you can have a window
screen with really fine linesand tiny holes, or you can have a
window screen with widerholes, wider pattern.
The way they measure the meshof a black pepper is what size screen
it will sift through.
So the higher the number, thefiner the pepper.
So a fine black pepper isgoing to be called a 16 mesh.
(06:12):
And it's really powdery,usually white pepper.
When you find white pepper,it's going to be really powdery like
that.
A table grind that you have athome is going to be around a 33 mesh.
And then a coarse would be,you know, maybe a 12.
A cracked might be a 10.
So we can tell a lot of timesif you.
If I can ask you, well, doesit say cracked?
(06:33):
Does it say coarse?
Are you, God forbid, tell meyou're not using a home grinder and
trying to twist it and do ityourself, because we'll never get
it right.
The more you can tell me aboutwhat you're using, the more it helps.
I'm going to backtrack asecond to Jeff's comments about the
measurements.
All right, the three of us allmeasure one cup of flour, and I put
it on a gram scale.
(06:54):
I guarantee you we'll havethree different weights.
Jeff might take a knife andsmooth off the top.
Leanne might shake it till itlooks even.
I might pack it down a Little bit.
So if somebody is doingkitchen measurements, what I'm often
going to tell them is takeeach of your ingredients, measure
it the way you would measureit, put it in a baggie.
If you don't have a gramscale, send it to me and I'll weigh
(07:15):
it out.
But here's the next thing.
You know how cheap gram scales are.
It's little kitchen scales.
Everybody uses them now fortheir diets and watching their macros.
You can go buy a $20 gramscale, measure it out your at home,
and then you'll have your own formula.
You'll know how many grams ofeach product or each raw material
that you're putting in there.
So, yeah, really, the moreinformation you can come to me armed
(07:38):
with, the more likely we canhit it, you know, quickly, not have
a lot of frustration, a lot ofback and forth on the other side.
You come to me with an exactformula broken into your grams, broken
into your percentages.
My lab can match it.
We'll look at it because we'llcompare it side by side with your
product and what we make.
And we might say, oh, yeah,that's it, perfect.
Send it to them for approval.
(07:58):
Approval.
And you're going to look at itand say, you know, the garlic's a
little sharper than what I waslooking for.
Or the color is just not quite there.
Because I always say, nobodyknows their own child as well as
the parent.
So while it might look like atwin to me, you're going to say,
nope, that's not the same.
And that's fine.
We don't have, you know,that's very usual to have, you know,
(08:19):
maybe two to three rounds offine tuning till we get it exactly
where you want it.
And don't you have to changeit from that point since you're doing
bulk?
Doesn't that change the.
Because I know I actually havea couple recipes for pig powder.
All right?
One is my bulk recipe that Ido for the restaurant, which is far
different.
It took me a long time totweak it in bulk fashion versus just
(08:40):
doing a small quantity.
So do you have to convert thatto produce large batches for your
bottling?
So what we do basically is getit into 100 gram formula.
So I'm going to send you maybea one pound sample.
You're going to say, hey,that's it.
Then we take it to ourmanufacturing facility and we will
do a pilot run.
(09:01):
So I'm going to do a smallbatch, I'm going to pack it the way
you want it.
Packed.
If you want it in fivepounders, I'll put it in five pounders.
If you want it in a 16 ouncebottle, we will go through and bottle
to get the net weight.
Rarely, rarely do I send thatto somebody that they come back and
say, hey, it wasn't right.
I did just have that happen tome earlier this year.
And it was a color.
It was, you know, it's not asbright as I wanted it.
(09:23):
When we up.
When we, yeah.
Had taken it up to the largerbatch, and that's fine.
We know that then we can goback, we can make some more adjustments.
I think the other thing thatpeople don't think about is the order
in which you add ingredientsinto your blender makes a difference.
So we get down to the exactscience of when you add each ingredient,
how long the blender runsbefore you put the next ingredient.
(09:46):
And it's all mapped out justabsolutely precisely.
Like, if you don't want your.
If you have.
Let's say you have basil,oregano leaves, and you don't want
them to be all broken up.
You want to see good pieces of them.
Well, you want that to be thevery last thing you add.
And you want to mix it for avery short amount of time.
Interesting.
A lot of people at home willjust show, shove everything into
the bowl, turn on the beatersand go.
(10:06):
Or maybe your hand mixing,maybe you're not actually using.
We use what we call a ribbon blender.
So it's got, like, paddles.
It's a huge stainless steel,looks like a bathtub that holds up
to 5,000 pounds, a bulk weight.
And then there are theselittle paddles around the outside,
and then a ribbon that goesthrough the center, and it just very
gently tosses the product together.
(10:28):
But it's going to be differentthan you using a spoon and hand mixing
or putting it into a foodprocessor or, you know, using a KitchenAid
blender at home.
It is going to look a littlebit different, but we need to get
it to an exact science so wecan reproduce the same thing every
single time.
Wow, that's great to know thatI would fit in that blender.
We can all fit.
(10:49):
We can just fill it up andhave a little pool party.
Yeah.
There you go.
Little paprika.
We're gonna take a break hereon Barbecue Nation.
We're gonna be back and talkwith Amy Young, who is the executive
vice president of strategicrelations for Old World Spices.
Did I get that right?
You did.
How about that?
(11:09):
And, Leanne, you would beproud of me.
I called Amy yesterday andasked her how to pronounce her name
properly because.
Was I right?
Pretty close.
Yeah, close.
Yeah, pretty close.
You did good.
I've been bushwhacked a few times.
Like I was telling her, youknow, it's spelled Z, R, T, S, W,
Y and it's pronounced Smithbecause it's all silent.
(11:30):
Anyway, we're going to take abreak here on the Nation.
Be back in just a minute.
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(11:59):
Hey, everybody, it's Jeff here.
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(12:28):
This is an encore.
Welcome back to BarbecueNation here on the USA Radio Networks.
I'm JT along with Leanne Whippen.
We're talking with Amy Youngtoday from Old World Spices.
If you'd like to contact us,very simple.
Go to barbecue nation jt.comand there's a little box there that
says you want to send us a message.
The good messages come to me.
(12:49):
The nasty ones I send to Leanne.
And then I send them back to.
You, and then she sends themback to me.
Or you can reach out to us onFacebook or Twitter.
We're all over the map on that stuff.
So if you say you can't findus, you're not trying very hard.
I'll put it that way.
So we're talking about spices,getting them to market.
(13:11):
You know, it was interestingdown at the convention, Amy, because
I would say half the peoplesitting in that audience had rubs
and spices themselves.
Not all of them weremanufactured and distributed by you.
There was a lot of them doing themselves.
Some of them in those paneldiscussions were doing it the way
(13:31):
you talked about doing itlocally first and then trying to
graduate out to distributorsor what have you.
And I know every one of themwas proud of their, their, their
blends.
They had to be or theywouldn't continue to do it.
But how do you tell somebodyit's not very good if in fact it
(13:51):
isn't no, but that's.
That's an honest question,because it is.
I've had my stuff on retailshelves and things, and out of the.
We had four blends on the shelves.
Three of them were quite good.
One of them, the comment was,it's just a little too peppery.
Okay.
Like that.
(14:12):
And I didn't.
I wasn't insulted by that.
I just.
I wanted to know what people thought.
And so we did a few surveysand what have you, like that.
But when somebody comes in andit's just not very good, how do you
tell them?
You gotta up your game alittle bit there, cowboy.
Okay.
So in our barbecue family, youmade a comment earlier, before we
(14:35):
went on air, about, you know,that you can be kind of blunt sometimes.
I think that people in ourindustry, our family, appreciate
and respect truthfulness, andyou just have to deal it out a little
bit kindly.
I'm going to give you a casein point.
We just had recently a companyfrom Australia that approached us,
and they have this line ofproducts, and they're selling like
(14:56):
hotcakes in Australia.
They wanted to know if we wereinterested in making it here for
them.
They had a Whole Foodscontract, so it's like they already
had business, but it wascosting them too much to ship from
Australia.
So could we take it over?
Our lab made up the product,and I have to also tell you, these
were vegan products.
So, yeah, they were trying tosimulate meat flavors, but keep them
(15:20):
vegan.
Okay.
So they wanted, let's say, abacon flavor without putting any
meat or actual bacon in it.
Okay.
So our lab worked with it.
They made it up, and they allsaid, oh, my God, this is terrible.
Who did their consumer testing?
How do they know this is goingto sell here?
Well, you know, you go toAustralia and they like Vegemite.
I don't know a lot of theorgans like Vegemite.
(15:41):
No, no.
So we just had to be honest.
We got on a call, we said, youknow, we've tried it internally.
We put it through an internaltaste panel.
We know you're going for abacon flavor, but bacon flavor here
might be different than whatit is there.
So we talked about differenttypes of bacon flavors.
Can we send you some different examples?
(16:02):
Are you locked and loaded thatit has to taste just like bacon this.
And I think they are veryappreciative because they didn't
want to launch in the Statesand find that out.
To find out that, oh, my gosh,nobody likes this.
So that, you know, that is animportant thing.
The other Thing is, you know,have you.
If you have to over explain toa customer how to use it.
I've had products come in andit's like, oh, well, you know, it's
(16:24):
really good as long as you doit the right way.
You have to first do this andsoak it in this and then add some
of this.
And I'm like, who's going topay to educate the consumer on how
to do that?
Okay.
In the in competition barbecuecircuit, here's a good example.
Everybody likes to say I haveto layer my flavors.
So first I add a layer of thisand I let it sit for 15 minutes and
(16:45):
then I do a layer of this.
And, you know, and they'revery precise about it.
So I had.
I won't throw out names.
He'll know when he hears thisthat I'm talking about him.
I had a Texas guy who insistedthat he had to have these things
like, how are we going to do this?
How do we.
You know, we're going to haveto have three bottles and tell everybody
to use it in this order.
And I said, you know, bearwith us, let's try a test.
(17:06):
So I sent him his threeproducts blended together into one
blend.
I said, just try it out.
Do it side by side with how,you know, the exact same meat, exact
same amount and everything.
Do a blind taste test withyour family and see what they say,
and nobody could pick up the difference.
Sorry, sorry.
I just debunked your scienceon how you have to layer.
(17:26):
But I really think it's thesame at the end of the day.
Yeah, absolutely.
Little footnote here.
I've been down under a fewtimes in my career, and that Vegemite
stuff will kill you.
It's just nasty.
Sorry.
Australians.
I know we get people thatlisten to the pod version in Australia.
(17:49):
I know it's like a nationaltreasure down there.
I respect that.
I tried it a couple of timeson my trips, couldn't do it.
And I saw Oprah Winfrey try iton TV one time, tried to do it with
Hugh Jackman.
He was so proud.
And he gave her a big bite ofVegemite on a cracker or piece of
toast or something.
(18:09):
She damn near threw up there on.
On the satellite feed.
So anyway, moving on, moving on.
Do you know.
Do you know, Amy, whensomebody brings you a blend now,
and I'm saying, not somebodythat's established, but somebody
that's new, they walk in thedoor, they say, here's the stuff,
(18:31):
here's the measurements,here's all this, like, that and you
mix up a sample batch and youtry it.
Do you know when it can be ahit, so to speak, in the wreck?
That's an old record business,you know, Deal.
Yeah.
You know, when you got a hit.
Jeff, there's so many me tooproducts out there that I think the
(18:54):
hit has to come from two levels.
Having.
I don't want to.
I don't.
God, I don't want to say aunique flavor because as we talked
about in our conference downin Fort Worth at nbbqa, if you get
too unique, you narrow your audience.
So I always say, try to go.
My flavor term is comfort witha twist.
(19:15):
Try to go, you know, withsomething that is somewhat familiar.
I kind of know what this isgoing to taste like, but.
Oh, you added a new element.
So excuse me.
So instead of it just being a.
Another SPG or another allpurpose, is there something unique
about it?
We can call out that peoplewill go, oh, my gosh, I love key
lime.
I never thought about puttingkey lime in my chicken rub.
(19:36):
You know, the other thing isthe story, the story behind the product,
the authority of the personpresenting this to the public is
going to be the first thingthat gets you off the shelf.
I mean, the label has to say,I know what I'm talking about.
I've got great experiencedoing this.
You're going to love myproduct, and here's what it's going
(19:57):
to taste like.
Well, and also, what's itgoing to go on?
We'll be back with Amy Young from.
Where are you from, Amy?
Oh, yeah, you're from OldWorld Spices.
Yeah.
We'll be back in just a minute.
(20:18):
Hey, everybody, it's JT and Ihave eaten.
If you've ever looked at me,you know that.
But I have eaten seafood allover the world, and I can tell you
there's no place better thanhere in Oregon and our Dungeness
crab.
If you want to learn moreabout Oregon Dungeness crab, just
go to oregondungeness.org findout how to cook it, how to catch
it, where to buy it, and thesustainability of what they're doing
(20:42):
there in the Oregon Crab Commission.
Check it out.
This is an encore.
Welcome back to BarbecueNation here on the USA Radio Networks.
Find us anywhere on the web,all your favorite social media platforms
(21:02):
and that were there.
We're doing something probablynot supposed to be, but we are.
We'd like to thank the folksagain at Painted Hills Natural Beef.
Beef you can be proud to serveyour family and friends.
And that's also Beef the waynature intended.
Also, we'd like to thank DavidMalik and his crew over at Gunter
Wilhelm Knives.
Did I say that right this time?
Leanne Gunther.
Yep.
Okay.
(21:22):
Okay.
Gunter Gunther.
It's Gunther Meathead.
Yes.
It's winter.
Anyway, Leanne uses them.
I use them.
A lot of people use them.
If you're serious about goodinstruments of the trade in your
kitchen, go to GunterWilhelmKnives.com okay, now we're
back with Amy.
(21:42):
Sorry about all that, but wehad to do that.
Leanne brought up somethingand you were talking to, as we were
closing out the last, lastsegment, Amy, about labeling.
You know, and I can only gooff my own experiences on this, but
I know that in labeling is so important.
(22:03):
I, I did this rub called HappyCamper, Kid Spice.
And we put a picture of my daughter.
Of course, I was in the cowboyworld in those days.
And we had this picture of my daughter.
She was little.
She had had barbecue sauce allover her face, big cowboy hat.
It was cuter than I'll get out.
But it worked.
It worked very well for that.
(22:23):
The other stuff were those labels.
I was never really happy withthose labels, but the kids label
I was happy with.
Maybe I was because I was dad.
But how important is that to,to go in?
Because when I was doing this,you know, you had McCormick and you
had Shilling and they took uptwo shelves or more.
(22:45):
And so, you know, you knewthe, the red and white cans or the
bottles or whatever they werein the McCormick packaging and stuff
like that.
But how important is that topeople for sales?
The labeling is veryimportant, Jeff.
But let's also back up alittle bit and talk about what channel
you're going to sell tobecause you have different consumers
(23:06):
shopping different places.
And you have to know yourconsumer and what they're looking
for when they walk in.
If you are Talking about theMcCormick and the Weber, you're probably
talking about grocery.
You're talking Walmart,Kroger, Publix, okay?
That's where the majority oftheir products are sold.
You're not going to findMcCormick's in a high end barbecue
aisle.
Ace Hardware is not going tocarry McCormick or Weber.
(23:28):
Barbecue Galore is not goingto carry McCormick or Weber.
Okay, so let's talk aboutwho's shopping.
When you are competing withsomebody like McCormick and Weber,
unfortunately, you're going tobe competing on price and you're
going to have that shopper whois probably.
Well, you're going to have oneor two things.
Again, back to consumer studies.
We've done before.
If it's the woman shopping ina Walmart, she has a list of groceries,
(23:50):
she has a cart full of thingsshe has to get.
She's going to go down thespice aisle.
Your label might get yourattention, but she's looking at her
cart, she's looking at her budget.
Is she really going to be ableto afford to pick up, you know, the
more expensive products?
She might.
Okay.
But you're going to appealmore to the man shopping in Walmart
who we know is an event shopper.
(24:12):
He knows he's going to barbecue.
He's got to get meat,charcoal, tin foil, seasoning and
sauce.
So he is going to take alittle more time.
This is an event.
He wants these ribs or thisbrisket or this pork fat to turn
out perfectly.
So he's going to look at thelabels more.
He's not going to be as costconscious when he walks in there.
Yes, it's, there's, there's anumber of different things that are
(24:34):
going to make you successfulor not successful.
So let's go the other way.
Let's talk about the barbecuechannels where.
Or the, the retail channelswhere I say the barbecue hobbyist
is shopping.
This is going to be anybodyselling your grills.
Your barbecue equipment couldbe hardware sporting good outdoor
living, pool and patio.
You know, all those places aregoing to attract a very different
(24:55):
shopper.
So when you get in there now,they are.
I'm going to use Ace as an example.
All right.
A large Ace store might have200 different SKUs of barbecue rubs
in their shelf because theyare really trying to present themselves
as backyard central forbarbecue people.
Sure.
Okay.
But now you're in there withall the experts.
(25:16):
How are you going to stand out?
It's back to who are you?
What is your identity?
What is your story?
It is colors.
It is.
And color trends are going tocome and go.
Fifteen, 20 years ago, all thebarbecue stuff had funny little characters,
had very busty pigs that hadcrazy cows that had, you know, chicken,
(25:39):
driving a tractor, whatever itwould be.
And then they would have namesthat were.
Would make you giggle or maybemake you blush.
Yeah.
Okay.
True barbecue has gotten somuch more sophisticated that a lot
of those labels now you lookat and you think that looks like
somebody made it in the garage.
(26:01):
It doesn't give the same authority.
You don't want something thatlooks like somebody's making it in
their kitchen at home.
You want something that hasmore of that.
Guarantee that this person hasexperience, they know what they're
doing.
They're professional.
Not professional to McCormicklevel, but a professional in the
barbecue world.
Okay, so class it up.
(26:22):
We've also found someretailers won't bring in the cheeky
names.
I'll use one of my ownproducts as an example.
We have a Memphis Rub andSauce, Memphis Style Rub and Sauce
we came up with years ago atthe request of a retailer because
I wanted something Carolina,something Memphis, something Texas,
something Kansas City.
So we try to give them all thefunny names.
(26:44):
And our Memphis sauce wascalled Pig's Ass and the Fabulous
Sauce.
Okay, great vinegar, you know,kind of style.
But when it went to the tastepanel at Lowe's, Lowe's loved it.
They wanted to bring it in,but they said, you got to change
(27:04):
the name.
We can't put ass on our shelves.
So they had us, same product,same label, but we had us change
it to Booty, so it's BootySauce and Booty Rub instead of Ass.
And then they felt that wasn'tgoing to offend their shopper.
So, you know, it's justsomething to keep in mind.
You have to really.
We're putting a business plantogether in a strategy that's more
(27:27):
than just, is my label goingto be bright and jump out?
You've got to know your consumer.
You've got to know the channelyou're taking it to.
You've got to have a plan.
And then your label can bedesigned around that.
If you're starting with yourlabel design and then trying to figure
out what to do with it, Ithink you're behind the eight ball.
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Really?
Because if you look at a lotof online shopping for sauces or
(27:54):
rubs, blends, whatever youwant to call them, a lot of them
have, like you said, little,little cheeky names, if you will,
you know, cowboy, kick ass,whatever, like that on.
I've seen that.
I don't even know if thatstuff's still around.
But they used to be a sauceline that they did that with.
And.
(28:15):
And even though we've becomemore sophisticated to a certain degree
and that on the.
On the flip side of that, Amy, the.
You know, the Internet is thewild west, so people get away with
saying and naming stuff onlinethat they normally wouldn't.
How do you find a balance for that?
Because not every smallproprietor can just recreate a label
(28:37):
and go through that process.
It can get expensive,especially when you're going to be,
you know, kick out a couplethousand bottles a month or whatever
you're doing.
So how do you find that balance?
Well, Another thing you've gotto keep in mind, Jeff, for longevity
of a brand, you're going to bedoing label refreshes about every
five years, okay.
Because you do want it to look fresh.
(28:59):
You're not changing theproduct and you're not doing a complete
overhaul.
Now, I've seen brands thatwere young do a complete overall
overhaul, and it really didhelp them and it helped boost their
sales.
I gave as an example, and Iknow he's fine with talking about
this Pawboys, Todd John'sproduct, he redid his labels about
(29:19):
three years ago, and he saw a57% increase in sales when he did
his new label.
Wow, that's great.
Now, that was a complete overhaul.
I don't think you always haveto do a complete overhaul, but sometimes
there's small changes.
You might have initiallydesigned your product with your logo
being the prominent, you know,number one call out.
(29:41):
It's taking up what I'm goingto say is the most real estate on
your label.
And now you're established,you know, and.
And maybe what you need to donow is understand that people are
looking for flavor trends soyou can change and make your logo
smaller and make your flavorcall out bigger.
So you're.
As you learn and you educateyourself, you know, there's small
changes you can do to make itmore appealing, to get your message
(30:03):
across without having tocompletely recreate yourself.
If you've got a new product,how tough is it to get into, say,
the stores like Lowe's or AceHardware, and then the local, you
know, like a grocery chain,maybe Kroger or Walmart, something
like that?
Those are the big guys.
But how tough is it to getyour product on their shelves?
(30:26):
It's very tough.
It's very tough.
So let's take the hardware,the Ace, the lows.
They do a category review onetime a year.
So, and I'm going to throw outapproximate times here.
But let's say that Lowe's doesa category review for their barbecue
section in July.
They'll come back to us inDecember and say, here's what you've
(30:50):
selected.
It will take a year beforethey actually then put it on the
shelves because they're goingto be redesigning their whole set
for the barbecue area.
They're going to be redoingtheir header signs.
There's, you know, product intheir warehouses that has to be moved
through.
So you're literally saying,from the time I show it to you, we.
The 18 months before itactually goes into your store.
(31:11):
Okay, wow.
The way we got started in thisbusiness was actually at Bass Pro.
So one of our salesmen hadwalked into Bass Pro, asked if they'd
be interested in working withus on private label products.
So he went in and asked ifthey wanted to work with us.
And the buyer said, you know,I don't really see having a Bass
Pro barbecue rub going, but weare doing pretty good with barbecue
(31:34):
rubs.
We got about 18 SKUs.
Because the funny thing is Isee these cases coming in and the
one common thing I see is youguys are the packers on all of these.
So he said, why am I going outto place single invoices for two
cases here and there, youknow, with 18 different guys, when
my manager could just come toyou and order it directly to, you
know, the other people thatyou've been working with?
(31:55):
Are they going to get mad?
Are you going to lose them?
It's probably worth the riskbecause Walmart's big.
Yeah, yeah.
But Walmart will kick you tothe curb if they don't sell it too.
So.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
We got to take a break.
We got to take a break, butwe're going to come back with Amy
from Old World Spices andLeanne from Florida and me sitting
around here listening to this,which is great stuff.
(32:17):
So please stay with us here onthe Nation.
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So go to heritagesteel us.
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Check out the Hammer Stahl knives.
If you're really into cooking.
I think you're really gonnalike them.
This is an encore.
Welcome back To BarbecueNation here on the USA Radio Networks,
I'm JT along with LeanneWhippen and Amy Young Today from
(33:46):
Old World Spices, Amy is goingto stick around for the Spanish Inquisition
part of this show that isafter hours, so show me that.
A good part about that, Amy,is that doesn't air on the radio,
that just airs on the Internet.
So people have to want tolisten to that.
And unfortunately, a lot ofpeople do want to listen to that.
(34:10):
You were talking about gettingon store shelves and working with
a distributor, and I.
And if I bore you with this,I'm sorry, but when I was doing this,
I had to stop doing it becauseI didn't have enough time.
I was trying to do it all myself.
I had quite a few stores thatwere carrying it, mostly here in
(34:32):
the Northwest, but they wouldcall and say they would what I call
broken cases.
I don't know if that's theproper terminology anymore, but they
would want six bottles of thisand three bottles of this and blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah.
And then they'd want it delivered.
They may call you on Thursdayafternoon at 4 o', clock, but they'd
like it before noon on Friday.
(34:54):
So because the weekend'scoming, coming like that.
And I just couldn't make thatwork, so I, I stopped doing it.
But that's.
I think that's a part ofworking with a distributor.
A full service deal likeyou've got that is really good.
Because if you're trying to doit out of your backyard or if you're
(35:17):
just trying to ship, you know,from the post office, two bottles
every couple days, that's along road that way.
Jeff, I think what a lot ofpeople don't consider is the value
of your own time, say, oh,well, I can do it.
It doesn't cost me anything.
So, you know, I've had people,when we talk about our royalty program
(35:37):
and our distribution, and I'llsay, well, you know, you're going
to get 15% royalty.
So every bottle I move, I'mgoing to write you a check at the
end of the month for 15%.
15%?
That's ridiculous.
When I saw it myself, I made 50%.
And I think these people don'tknow business very well because they're
not netting 15, they're notnetting 50%, they're probably not
(35:59):
netting 4%.
When you take off your time,your gas, your money has been tied
up.
If you're taking out loans orbuying things on your credit card
and paying interest, all yourown personal overhead, trying to
do all of this.
At the end of the day, if youhave a good accountant, they're going
to say, you know What?
(36:20):
You netted 4% profit this year.
Well, if you can find apartner who's going to help you do
this, and you have zeroinvestment, and at the end of the
year, you know you're going tohave a check for 15% of all of your
efforts.
I'll make a 15% return anyday, any place.
You just tell me where to putmy money and I'll go do that.
(36:41):
You don't even have to put anymoney down because we're doing it
for you.
What we need on the other end,though, is a partnership.
I can't bring somebody inwho's just going to sit on their
butt and wait for their checkto come in.
I look for people to partnerwith who are aggressively out there
selling and promoting themselves.
Are you teaching classes?
Are you traveling and doing contests?
(37:01):
Are you busy on social media?
If you're getting.
Not everybody gets TVappearances because we all don't
look like Leanne or cook like Leanne.
But I always say, never say noto an opportunity to get yourself
out there, to get yourselfknown, because I can make the products
and I can maybe get it on theshelf for you, but then the consumer
(37:22):
has to want to buy your product.
So the more you're promoting,the more you're doing recipes and
cooking videos and justconnecting to people.
People will buy Leanne'sproduct because they like Leanne.
They feel like they know her.
They've seen her, they'vewatched her on tv, they've cheered
her on.
She is her brand.
(37:42):
Which we're going to work onthat one, Leigh.
We're going to work on the Lean.
You know, another.
Another.
I'm sorry to interrupt.
Go ahead.
No, no, no.
I'll talk on and on.
Go ahead.
Another very important thing,and I had this problem in the past
just with my barbecue teamback in the day, is trademarks.
(38:03):
I started investing in a logoand my team as Hickory Chicks Barbecue
and found out somebody hadtrademarked it afterwards.
Very small company.
It doesn't matter.
The trademark was out there.
And fortunately, I found outsoon enough, before I invested more
in my logo and branding toswitch it up.
And that's when I changed itto Wood Chicks, because I want it
(38:25):
to be something close.
But I think people need tounderstand the investment of a trademark
is well worth in business downthe road.
I think you can attest to that.
And we kind of.
Of.
I think we talked about this aLittle bit in Texas.
So if you could just shinesome light on that.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
So there are trademark andpatent attorneys that are worth their
(38:46):
weight in gold.
If you really want to investin a brand and a product and get
it out there, you can goonline and do your own trademark
search.
There's just the US government.
I think it's USTP.gov or something.
Yeah.
If you just go research.
Yeah.
US government trademarks, youcan find it.
And then they'll have a littlesearch field so you can put in a
(39:07):
name and it will come up andtell you anything.
That's close.
Anything.
Let's say just take wood chicks.
Okay.
There might be a wood chicknail file.
Okay.
That's not going to be inconflict with the food product.
So when you apply for atrademark and a lot of people don't
(39:29):
know this, usually you'recovering a food category or a. I'm
sorry, a consumer good category.
Right.
So you can't get it to, youknow, just blanket cover everything.
So they're going to look tosee if that's a conflict.
Now if you are a celebrity andyou have done, you've trademarked
your name or a nickname, ascreen name, something that you go
(39:51):
by that's a little different.
So Leanne, somebody couldn'ttake your name and go out and try
to.
Try to.
They have a Leanne bubble bathif you trademarked Leanne.
Okay.
So, but this is where it'sgood to have an attorney come in
because they can look at it.
Also hard to trademark aproduct that's not actually on the
(40:13):
market yet.
So the attorneys will tellyou, yes, it's taken or no, it's
not.
You can apply for it, but youbetter have it in the works because
they're going to want picturesof it.
It you have to show proof thatyou're actually doing something with
the name.
That keeps somebody from justgoing out there and grabbing a bunch
of names that, you know, justto hide them.
Right.
(40:33):
But it's very important toprotect yourself on that because
I one thing I have found thatpeople are not very creative, are
original.
You know, they don't likeLeanne did wood chicks and stuff.
I mean, she obviously put sometime and effort and thought into
that.
Most people will.
A lot of people, I shouldn'tsay not most people, but they will
(40:53):
like, oh, yeah, Bob's Barbecue.
My name's Bob.
So let's barbecue.
You know, and that's it.
And there's how many Bob'sBarbecues are there out there, you
know, 453,000.
You know, so you.
You've gotta.
You've on the business side ofthings, if you're gonna take it seriously.
Seriously, like you said, youneed to trademark that stuff, and
(41:17):
I'm living proof of that.
That so?
Yeah.
Well, and your.
Your comments about, you know,and brought this up earlier as well.
The.
The business.
This is a business, you guys.
You need a business plan.
If you think you're just gonnamake up something in your kitchen
and put a cute little funnyname on it and throw it out there
and make a million dollars,you're probably just wasting your
time and money.
But it'll be a fun little hobby.
We gotta get out of here.
(41:37):
Amy Young from Old WorldSpices, the executive vice president,
I should say back there, wethank you, and it was so much fun.
And like I said, you're gonnastick around for the after hours
and.
Absolutely.
Excellent as usual.
And so for Leanne and I andAmy, I want to bid you adieu.
Have a good weekend.
Go out there, do somebarbecuing, and remember our motto
(41:59):
here.
Turn it, don't burn it.
We'll see you next week.
Barbecue Nation is produced byJTSD LLC Productions in association
with Salem Media Group.
All rights reserved.
It's time for Barbecue Nationwith jt.
So fire up your grill, lightthe charcoal and get your smoker
cooking.
Now from the Turnip Go Burnettstudios in Portland, here's jt.
This is an encore.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome to the nation.
That's Barbecue Nation.
I'm JT along with my co hostand co pilot and co commander Leanne
Whippen.
And the usual group ofsuspects hanging around the Turn
(00:21):
It Don't Burnet studios herein the Portland area.
Also, this show is broadcastproudly on the USA Radio Networks.
We'd like to thank the folksat Painted Hills Natural Beef Beef
the way N intended.
You can check them out atPainted Hills Natural Beef online.
And you don't have a store inyour area.
They do some online storestuff, little shipping, special cuts
(00:43):
and things for you.
So check those out.
Well, if you've ever wanted tobe in the spice business, God help
you.
We we've got the lady thattoday on the show from Old World
Spices, Amy Young is going tobe with us here and just two seconds
and she's going to tell youall the do's and don'ts and whys
(01:04):
and why nots in the spice business.
Amy, welcome.
Yes, welcome.
Hello, Jeff.
Hi, Leanne.
Hello.
We just saw you in Texas atthe National Barbecue convention
and you headed up one of theseminars which was packed house because
everybody does want to know.
There are so many people thatwant to start their own sauces, rubs
(01:26):
and what have you.
And you are an expert in the field.
So.
Yeah, let's hear it.
Well, thank you very much.
I was very happy.
This was the third time I'vegotten to present at the mbpqa and
I like to always try to dosomething a little different.
So this year was fun to get to.
They asked me to come talkabout trends and made it really easy
because barbecue and backyardcooking is the biggest trend out
(01:48):
there right now.
So if somebody walks in offthe street, that wouldn't of course
be Leanna or myself.
But if somebody walked in offthe street and said, hey, Amy, I've
got this rub that's been in myfamily for 354 years.
How do I get it to market?
And you know, we know it's theabsolute best thing out there.
(02:13):
You know, it's got to be topshelf stuff, what do you tell them?
What do you do for them?
Well, first you got to get alittle bit of their backstory.
You know, just the fact thatthey have an old family recipe is
great, but I always try to getthem to Tell me a little bit more
about where's their authority.
They have an old familyrestaurant that's been around forever
that has a good following.
(02:33):
Are they a competitionbarbecue cook?
There's so many rubs andsauces out there that if I can't
build a story to the consumerabout why yours is going to stand
out or be different or needsto go home and be in your kitchen,
I mean, it's just you're kindof a losing battle.
So I always try to start offthere, and then you'd be surprised
how many people come to me andI'll say, well, do you have the recipe?
(02:57):
Well, yeah, I do.
And then they bring it out andit's like, well, it's a little bit
of, you know, this brandseasoning, salt, and then I'm adding
some of this barbecue rub.
And then I've got somebodyelse's, you know, garlic, pepper
or everything, bagel seasoning.
They don't really have a recipe.
They're using, you know, anumber of different commercial products
(03:17):
Now.
My R and D lab is phenomenal.
They can still break thatdown, but it's just a lot.
It's a lot more work.
So, you know, we're going tohave to back up.
We're going to have tovalidate you a little bit as to why
are we going to dedicate our Rand D time to you to break this down
and do this.
Because we want to make sureif we invest our time, you're investing
(03:38):
your time and money that hasgrounds to be successful.
The other thing people don'tthink about a lot of times is where
they're going to sell their product.
Everybody's going to buy itbecause it's great.
Well, where do you want tosell it?
Well, I want to be in Walmart.
Okay, well, that's a great endgame to go for, but it's probably
not your beginning game.
So we try to talk them throughwhat the different channels of sales
(03:58):
are, you know, startinglocally and trying to grow out, trying
to get, you know, gain yourfollowing in your own backyard before
you try to go to the highexpense of taking something nationwide.
I know when I did it, this was.
And we've talked about this,and Leanne's heard me talk about
this stuff ad nauseam, I'm sure.
But when I went into thecompany that was doing mine here
(04:22):
in the Northwest, I had itdown to regular kitchen measurements,
if you will.
You know, half a cup of this,2 tablespoons of this, whatever.
But then what you were sayingis they came Back and they made some,
but they broke it down into,like, grams.
(04:45):
And then they.
They gave me a sample andsaid, is this how it's supposed to
taste?
And they were actually verymuch right on.
So that was fine.
But I can see where somebodythat comes in with a.
Well, we do a pinch of thisand a little paprika and this and
that, and then, yeah, your R Dfolks in the lab can break that down,
(05:07):
but the chances of it beingexactly the same are pretty rough.
Yeah.
And the other thing toconsider is I had this challenge
when I first was working withmy dad on pig powder, is that there
are different types ofpaprika, different heats of chili
powder, cayenne and all.
You know, it depends, I guess,Amy, on the products that you're
(05:28):
using and your R and D, youknow, tries to.
I mean, do you ask the people for.
Are you using just McCormickor Tones to try to figure out how
to get close to that flavor profile?
It's really interesting, Leigh.
And there are so, like yousaid, so many different paprikas,
so many different meshes ofblack pepper.
And a mesh is the size of the particulate.
(05:50):
So if you picture a windowscreen, and you can have a window
screen with really fine linesand tiny holes, or you can have a
window screen with widerholes, wider pattern.
The way they measure the meshof a black pepper is what size screen
it will sift through.
So the higher the number, thefiner the pepper.
So a fine black pepper isgoing to be called a 16 mesh.
(06:12):
And it's really powdery,usually white pepper.
When you find white pepper,it's going to be really powdery like
that.
A table grind that you have athome is going to be around a 33 mesh.
And then a coarse would be,you know, maybe a 12.
A cracked might be a 10.
So we can tell a lot of timesif you.
If I can ask you, well, doesit say cracked?
(06:33):
Does it say coarse?
Are you, God forbid, tell meyou're not using a home grinder and
trying to twist it and do ityourself, because we'll never get
it right.
The more you can tell me aboutwhat you're using, the more it helps.
I'm going to backtrack asecond to Jeff's comments about the
measurements.
All right, the three of us allmeasure one cup of flour, and I put
it on a gram scale.
(06:54):
I guarantee you we'll havethree different weights.
Jeff might take a knife andsmooth off the top.
Leanne might shake it till itlooks even.
I might pack it down a Little bit.
So if somebody is doingkitchen measurements, what I'm often
going to tell them is takeeach of your ingredients, measure
it the way you would measureit, put it in a baggie.
If you don't have a gramscale, send it to me and I'll weigh
(07:15):
it out.
But here's the next thing.
You know how cheap gram scales are.
It's little kitchen scales.
Everybody uses them now fortheir diets and watching their macros.
You can go buy a $20 gramscale, measure it out your at home,
and then you'll have your own formula.
You'll know how many grams ofeach product or each raw material
that you're putting in there.
So, yeah, really, the moreinformation you can come to me armed
(07:38):
with, the more likely we canhit it, you know, quickly, not have
a lot of frustration, a lot ofback and forth on the other side.
You come to me with an exactformula broken into your grams, broken
into your percentages.
My lab can match it.
We'll look at it because we'llcompare it side by side with your
product and what we make.
And we might say, oh, yeah,that's it, perfect.
Send it to them for approval.
(07:58):
Approval.
And you're going to look at itand say, you know, the garlic's a
little sharper than what I waslooking for.
Or the color is just not quite there.
Because I always say, nobodyknows their own child as well as
the parent.
So while it might look like atwin to me, you're going to say,
nope, that's not the same.
And that's fine.
We don't have, you know,that's very usual to have, you know,
(08:19):
maybe two to three rounds offine tuning till we get it exactly
where you want it.
And don't you have to changeit from that point since you're doing
bulk?
Doesn't that change the.
Because I know I actually havea couple recipes for pig powder.
All right?
One is my bulk recipe that Ido for the restaurant, which is far
different.
It took me a long time totweak it in bulk fashion versus just
(08:40):
doing a small quantity.
So do you have to convert thatto produce large batches for your
bottling?
So what we do basically is getit into 100 gram formula.
So I'm going to send you maybea one pound sample.
You're going to say, hey,that's it.
Then we take it to ourmanufacturing facility and we will
do a pilot run.
(09:01):
So I'm going to do a smallbatch, I'm going to pack it the way
you want it.
Packed.
If you want it in fivepounders, I'll put it in five pounders.
If you want it in a 16 ouncebottle, we will go through and bottle
to get the net weight.
Rarely, rarely do I send thatto somebody that they come back and
say, hey, it wasn't right.
I did just have that happen tome earlier this year.
And it was a color.
It was, you know, it's not asbright as I wanted it.
(09:23):
When we up.
When we, yeah.
Had taken it up to the largerbatch, and that's fine.
We know that then we can goback, we can make some more adjustments.
I think the other thing thatpeople don't think about is the order
in which you add ingredientsinto your blender makes a difference.
So we get down to the exactscience of when you add each ingredient,
how long the blender runsbefore you put the next ingredient.
(09:46):
And it's all mapped out justabsolutely precisely.
Like, if you don't want your.
If you have.
Let's say you have basil,oregano leaves, and you don't want
them to be all broken up.
You want to see good pieces of them.
Well, you want that to be thevery last thing you add.
And you want to mix it for avery short amount of time.
Interesting.
A lot of people at home willjust show, shove everything into
the bowl, turn on the beatersand go.
(10:06):
Or maybe your hand mixing,maybe you're not actually using.
We use what we call a ribbon blender.
So it's got, like, paddles.
It's a huge stainless steel,looks like a bathtub that holds up
to 5,000 pounds, a bulk weight.
And then there are theselittle paddles around the outside,
and then a ribbon that goesthrough the center, and it just very
gently tosses the product together.
(10:28):
But it's going to be differentthan you using a spoon and hand mixing
or putting it into a foodprocessor or, you know, using a KitchenAid
blender at home.
It is going to look a littlebit different, but we need to get
it to an exact science so wecan reproduce the same thing every
single time.
Wow, that's great to know thatI would fit in that blender.
We can all fit.
(10:49):
We can just fill it up andhave a little pool party.
Yeah.
There you go.
Little paprika.
We're gonna take a break hereon Barbecue Nation.
We're gonna be back and talkwith Amy Young, who is the executive
vice president of strategicrelations for Old World Spices.
Did I get that right?
You did.
How about that?
(11:09):
And, Leanne, you would beproud of me.
I called Amy yesterday andasked her how to pronounce her name
properly because.
Was I right?
Pretty close.
Yeah, close.
Yeah, pretty close.
You did good.
I've been bushwhacked a few times.
Like I was telling her, youknow, it's spelled Z, R, T, S, W,
Y and it's pronounced Smithbecause it's all silent.
(11:30):
Anyway, we're going to take abreak here on the Nation.
Be back in just a minute.
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(11:59):
Hey, everybody, it's Jeff here.
I want to tell you aboutsomething really cool.
Heritage steel cookware.
I just got mine.
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(12:28):
This is an encore.
Welcome back to BarbecueNation here on the USA Radio Networks.
I'm JT along with Leanne Whippen.
We're talking with Amy Youngtoday from Old World Spices.
If you'd like to contact us,very simple.
Go to barbecue nation jt.comand there's a little box there that
says you want to send us a message.
The good messages come to me.
(12:49):
The nasty ones I send to Leanne.
And then I send them back to.
You, and then she sends themback to me.
Or you can reach out to us onFacebook or Twitter.
We're all over the map on that stuff.
So if you say you can't findus, you're not trying very hard.
I'll put it that way.
So we're talking about spices,getting them to market.
(13:11):
You know, it was interestingdown at the convention, Amy, because
I would say half the peoplesitting in that audience had rubs
and spices themselves.
Not all of them weremanufactured and distributed by you.
There was a lot of them doing themselves.
Some of them in those paneldiscussions were doing it the way
(13:31):
you talked about doing itlocally first and then trying to
graduate out to distributorsor what have you.
And I know every one of themwas proud of their, their, their
blends.
They had to be or theywouldn't continue to do it.
But how do you tell somebodyit's not very good if in fact it
(13:51):
isn't no, but that's.
That's an honest question,because it is.
I've had my stuff on retailshelves and things, and out of the.
We had four blends on the shelves.
Three of them were quite good.
One of them, the comment was,it's just a little too peppery.
Okay.
Like that.
(14:12):
And I didn't.
I wasn't insulted by that.
I just.
I wanted to know what people thought.
And so we did a few surveysand what have you, like that.
But when somebody comes in andit's just not very good, how do you
tell them?
You gotta up your game alittle bit there, cowboy.
Okay.
So in our barbecue family, youmade a comment earlier, before we
(14:35):
went on air, about, you know,that you can be kind of blunt sometimes.
I think that people in ourindustry, our family, appreciate
and respect truthfulness, andyou just have to deal it out a little
bit kindly.
I'm going to give you a casein point.
We just had recently a companyfrom Australia that approached us,
and they have this line ofproducts, and they're selling like
(14:56):
hotcakes in Australia.
They wanted to know if we wereinterested in making it here for
them.
They had a Whole Foodscontract, so it's like they already
had business, but it wascosting them too much to ship from
Australia.
So could we take it over?
Our lab made up the product,and I have to also tell you, these
were vegan products.
So, yeah, they were trying tosimulate meat flavors, but keep them
(15:20):
vegan.
Okay.
So they wanted, let's say, abacon flavor without putting any
meat or actual bacon in it.
Okay.
So our lab worked with it.
They made it up, and they allsaid, oh, my God, this is terrible.
Who did their consumer testing?
How do they know this is goingto sell here?
Well, you know, you go toAustralia and they like Vegemite.
I don't know a lot of theorgans like Vegemite.
(15:41):
No, no.
So we just had to be honest.
We got on a call, we said, youknow, we've tried it internally.
We put it through an internaltaste panel.
We know you're going for abacon flavor, but bacon flavor here
might be different than whatit is there.
So we talked about differenttypes of bacon flavors.
Can we send you some different examples?
(16:02):
Are you locked and loaded thatit has to taste just like bacon this.
And I think they are veryappreciative because they didn't
want to launch in the Statesand find that out.
To find out that, oh, my gosh,nobody likes this.
So that, you know, that is animportant thing.
The other Thing is, you know,have you.
If you have to over explain toa customer how to use it.
I've had products come in andit's like, oh, well, you know, it's
(16:24):
really good as long as you doit the right way.
You have to first do this andsoak it in this and then add some
of this.
And I'm like, who's going topay to educate the consumer on how
to do that?
Okay.
In the in competition barbecuecircuit, here's a good example.
Everybody likes to say I haveto layer my flavors.
So first I add a layer of thisand I let it sit for 15 minutes and
(16:45):
then I do a layer of this.
And, you know, and they'revery precise about it.
So I had.
I won't throw out names.
He'll know when he hears thisthat I'm talking about him.
I had a Texas guy who insistedthat he had to have these things
like, how are we going to do this?
How do we.
You know, we're going to haveto have three bottles and tell everybody
to use it in this order.
And I said, you know, bearwith us, let's try a test.
(17:06):
So I sent him his threeproducts blended together into one
blend.
I said, just try it out.
Do it side by side with how,you know, the exact same meat, exact
same amount and everything.
Do a blind taste test withyour family and see what they say,
and nobody could pick up the difference.
Sorry, sorry.
I just debunked your scienceon how you have to layer.
(17:26):
But I really think it's thesame at the end of the day.
Yeah, absolutely.
Little footnote here.
I've been down under a fewtimes in my career, and that Vegemite
stuff will kill you.
It's just nasty.
Sorry.
Australians.
I know we get people thatlisten to the pod version in Australia.
(17:49):
I know it's like a nationaltreasure down there.
I respect that.
I tried it a couple of timeson my trips, couldn't do it.
And I saw Oprah Winfrey try iton TV one time, tried to do it with
Hugh Jackman.
He was so proud.
And he gave her a big bite ofVegemite on a cracker or piece of
toast or something.
(18:09):
She damn near threw up there on.
On the satellite feed.
So anyway, moving on, moving on.
Do you know.
Do you know, Amy, whensomebody brings you a blend now,
and I'm saying, not somebodythat's established, but somebody
that's new, they walk in thedoor, they say, here's the stuff,
(18:31):
here's the measurements,here's all this, like, that and you
mix up a sample batch and youtry it.
Do you know when it can be ahit, so to speak, in the wreck?
That's an old record business,you know, Deal.
Yeah.
You know, when you got a hit.
Jeff, there's so many me tooproducts out there that I think the
(18:54):
hit has to come from two levels.
Having.
I don't want to.
I don't.
God, I don't want to say aunique flavor because as we talked
about in our conference downin Fort Worth at nbbqa, if you get
too unique, you narrow your audience.
So I always say, try to go.
My flavor term is comfort witha twist.
(19:15):
Try to go, you know, withsomething that is somewhat familiar.
I kind of know what this isgoing to taste like, but.
Oh, you added a new element.
So excuse me.
So instead of it just being a.
Another SPG or another allpurpose, is there something unique
about it?
We can call out that peoplewill go, oh, my gosh, I love key
lime.
I never thought about puttingkey lime in my chicken rub.
(19:36):
You know, the other thing isthe story, the story behind the product,
the authority of the personpresenting this to the public is
going to be the first thingthat gets you off the shelf.
I mean, the label has to say,I know what I'm talking about.
I've got great experiencedoing this.
You're going to love myproduct, and here's what it's going
(19:57):
to taste like.
Well, and also, what's itgoing to go on?
We'll be back with Amy Young from.
Where are you from, Amy?
Oh, yeah, you're from OldWorld Spices.
Yeah.
We'll be back in just a minute.
(20:18):
Hey, everybody, it's JT and Ihave eaten.
If you've ever looked at me,you know that.
But I have eaten seafood allover the world, and I can tell you
there's no place better thanhere in Oregon and our Dungeness
crab.
If you want to learn moreabout Oregon Dungeness crab, just
go to oregondungeness.org findout how to cook it, how to catch
it, where to buy it, and thesustainability of what they're doing
(20:42):
there in the Oregon Crab Commission.
Check it out.
This is an encore.
Welcome back to BarbecueNation here on the USA Radio Networks.
Find us anywhere on the web,all your favorite social media platforms
(21:02):
and that were there.
We're doing something probablynot supposed to be, but we are.
We'd like to thank the folksagain at Painted Hills Natural Beef.
Beef you can be proud to serveyour family and friends.
And that's also Beef the waynature intended.
Also, we'd like to thank DavidMalik and his crew over at Gunter
Wilhelm Knives.
Did I say that right this time?
Leanne Gunther.
Yep.
Okay.
(21:22):
Okay.
Gunter Gunther.
It's Gunther Meathead.
Yes.
It's winter.
Anyway, Leanne uses them.
I use them.
A lot of people use them.
If you're serious about goodinstruments of the trade in your
kitchen, go to GunterWilhelmKnives.com okay, now we're
back with Amy.
(21:42):
Sorry about all that, but wehad to do that.
Leanne brought up somethingand you were talking to, as we were
closing out the last, lastsegment, Amy, about labeling.
You know, and I can only gooff my own experiences on this, but
I know that in labeling is so important.
(22:03):
I, I did this rub called HappyCamper, Kid Spice.
And we put a picture of my daughter.
Of course, I was in the cowboyworld in those days.
And we had this picture of my daughter.
She was little.
She had had barbecue sauce allover her face, big cowboy hat.
It was cuter than I'll get out.
But it worked.
It worked very well for that.
(22:23):
The other stuff were those labels.
I was never really happy withthose labels, but the kids label
I was happy with.
Maybe I was because I was dad.
But how important is that to,to go in?
Because when I was doing this,you know, you had McCormick and you
had Shilling and they took uptwo shelves or more.
(22:45):
And so, you know, you knewthe, the red and white cans or the
bottles or whatever they werein the McCormick packaging and stuff
like that.
But how important is that topeople for sales?
The labeling is veryimportant, Jeff.
But let's also back up alittle bit and talk about what channel
you're going to sell tobecause you have different consumers
(23:06):
shopping different places.
And you have to know yourconsumer and what they're looking
for when they walk in.
If you are Talking about theMcCormick and the Weber, you're probably
talking about grocery.
You're talking Walmart,Kroger, Publix, okay?
That's where the majority oftheir products are sold.
You're not going to findMcCormick's in a high end barbecue
aisle.
Ace Hardware is not going tocarry McCormick or Weber.
(23:28):
Barbecue Galore is not goingto carry McCormick or Weber.
Okay, so let's talk aboutwho's shopping.
When you are competing withsomebody like McCormick and Weber,
unfortunately, you're going tobe competing on price and you're
going to have that shopper whois probably.
Well, you're going to have oneor two things.
Again, back to consumer studies.
We've done before.
If it's the woman shopping ina Walmart, she has a list of groceries,
(23:50):
she has a cart full of thingsshe has to get.
She's going to go down thespice aisle.
Your label might get yourattention, but she's looking at her
cart, she's looking at her budget.
Is she really going to be ableto afford to pick up, you know, the
more expensive products?
She might.
Okay.
But you're going to appealmore to the man shopping in Walmart
who we know is an event shopper.
(24:12):
He knows he's going to barbecue.
He's got to get meat,charcoal, tin foil, seasoning and
sauce.
So he is going to take alittle more time.
This is an event.
He wants these ribs or thisbrisket or this pork fat to turn
out perfectly.
So he's going to look at thelabels more.
He's not going to be as costconscious when he walks in there.
Yes, it's, there's, there's anumber of different things that are
(24:34):
going to make you successfulor not successful.
So let's go the other way.
Let's talk about the barbecuechannels where.
Or the, the retail channelswhere I say the barbecue hobbyist
is shopping.
This is going to be anybodyselling your grills.
Your barbecue equipment couldbe hardware sporting good outdoor
living, pool and patio.
You know, all those places aregoing to attract a very different
(24:55):
shopper.
So when you get in there now,they are.
I'm going to use Ace as an example.
All right.
A large Ace store might have200 different SKUs of barbecue rubs
in their shelf because theyare really trying to present themselves
as backyard central forbarbecue people.
Sure.
Okay.
But now you're in there withall the experts.
(25:16):
How are you going to stand out?
It's back to who are you?
What is your identity?
What is your story?
It is colors.
It is.
And color trends are going tocome and go.
Fifteen, 20 years ago, all thebarbecue stuff had funny little characters,
had very busty pigs that hadcrazy cows that had, you know, chicken,
(25:39):
driving a tractor, whatever itwould be.
And then they would have namesthat were.
Would make you giggle or maybemake you blush.
Yeah.
Okay.
True barbecue has gotten somuch more sophisticated that a lot
of those labels now you lookat and you think that looks like
somebody made it in the garage.
(26:01):
It doesn't give the same authority.
You don't want something thatlooks like somebody's making it in
their kitchen at home.
You want something that hasmore of that.
Guarantee that this person hasexperience, they know what they're
doing.
They're professional.
Not professional to McCormicklevel, but a professional in the
barbecue world.
Okay, so class it up.
(26:22):
We've also found someretailers won't bring in the cheeky
names.
I'll use one of my ownproducts as an example.
We have a Memphis Rub andSauce, Memphis Style Rub and Sauce
we came up with years ago atthe request of a retailer because
I wanted something Carolina,something Memphis, something Texas,
something Kansas City.
So we try to give them all thefunny names.
(26:44):
And our Memphis sauce wascalled Pig's Ass and the Fabulous
Sauce.
Okay, great vinegar, you know,kind of style.
But when it went to the tastepanel at Lowe's, Lowe's loved it.
They wanted to bring it in,but they said, you got to change
(27:04):
the name.
We can't put ass on our shelves.
So they had us, same product,same label, but we had us change
it to Booty, so it's BootySauce and Booty Rub instead of Ass.
And then they felt that wasn'tgoing to offend their shopper.
So, you know, it's justsomething to keep in mind.
You have to really.
We're putting a business plantogether in a strategy that's more
(27:27):
than just, is my label goingto be bright and jump out?
You've got to know your consumer.
You've got to know the channelyou're taking it to.
You've got to have a plan.
And then your label can bedesigned around that.
If you're starting with yourlabel design and then trying to figure
out what to do with it, Ithink you're behind the eight ball.
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Really?
Because if you look at a lotof online shopping for sauces or
(27:54):
rubs, blends, whatever youwant to call them, a lot of them
have, like you said, little,little cheeky names, if you will,
you know, cowboy, kick ass,whatever, like that on.
I've seen that.
I don't even know if thatstuff's still around.
But they used to be a sauceline that they did that with.
And.
(28:15):
And even though we've becomemore sophisticated to a certain degree
and that on the.
On the flip side of that, Amy, the.
You know, the Internet is thewild west, so people get away with
saying and naming stuff onlinethat they normally wouldn't.
How do you find a balance for that?
Because not every smallproprietor can just recreate a label
(28:37):
and go through that process.
It can get expensive,especially when you're going to be,
you know, kick out a couplethousand bottles a month or whatever
you're doing.
So how do you find that balance?
Well, Another thing you've gotto keep in mind, Jeff, for longevity
of a brand, you're going to bedoing label refreshes about every
five years, okay.
Because you do want it to look fresh.
(28:59):
You're not changing theproduct and you're not doing a complete
overhaul.
Now, I've seen brands thatwere young do a complete overall
overhaul, and it really didhelp them and it helped boost their
sales.
I gave as an example, and Iknow he's fine with talking about
this Pawboys, Todd John'sproduct, he redid his labels about
(29:19):
three years ago, and he saw a57% increase in sales when he did
his new label.
Wow, that's great.
Now, that was a complete overhaul.
I don't think you always haveto do a complete overhaul, but sometimes
there's small changes.
You might have initiallydesigned your product with your logo
being the prominent, you know,number one call out.
(29:41):
It's taking up what I'm goingto say is the most real estate on
your label.
And now you're established,you know, and.
And maybe what you need to donow is understand that people are
looking for flavor trends soyou can change and make your logo
smaller and make your flavorcall out bigger.
So you're.
As you learn and you educateyourself, you know, there's small
changes you can do to make itmore appealing, to get your message
(30:03):
across without having tocompletely recreate yourself.
If you've got a new product,how tough is it to get into, say,
the stores like Lowe's or AceHardware, and then the local, you
know, like a grocery chain,maybe Kroger or Walmart, something
like that?
Those are the big guys.
But how tough is it to getyour product on their shelves?
(30:26):
It's very tough.
It's very tough.
So let's take the hardware,the Ace, the lows.
They do a category review onetime a year.
So, and I'm going to throw outapproximate times here.
But let's say that Lowe's doesa category review for their barbecue
section in July.
They'll come back to us inDecember and say, here's what you've
(30:50):
selected.
It will take a year beforethey actually then put it on the
shelves because they're goingto be redesigning their whole set
for the barbecue area.
They're going to be redoingtheir header signs.
There's, you know, product intheir warehouses that has to be moved
through.
So you're literally saying,from the time I show it to you, we.
The 18 months before itactually goes into your store.
(31:11):
Okay, wow.
The way we got started in thisbusiness was actually at Bass Pro.
So one of our salesmen hadwalked into Bass Pro, asked if they'd
be interested in working withus on private label products.
So he went in and asked ifthey wanted to work with us.
And the buyer said, you know,I don't really see having a Bass
Pro barbecue rub going, but weare doing pretty good with barbecue
(31:34):
rubs.
We got about 18 SKUs.
Because the funny thing is Isee these cases coming in and the
one common thing I see is youguys are the packers on all of these.
So he said, why am I going outto place single invoices for two
cases here and there, youknow, with 18 different guys, when
my manager could just come toyou and order it directly to, you
know, the other people thatyou've been working with?
(31:55):
Are they going to get mad?
Are you going to lose them?
It's probably worth the riskbecause Walmart's big.
Yeah, yeah.
But Walmart will kick you tothe curb if they don't sell it too.
So.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
We got to take a break.
We got to take a break, butwe're going to come back with Amy
from Old World Spices andLeanne from Florida and me sitting
around here listening to this,which is great stuff.
(32:17):
So please stay with us here onthe Nation.
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(32:44):
Hey, everybody, it's jt.
You know, I talk about PaintedHills all the time and we always
say beef the way nature intended.
But it's more than thatbecause each bite of Painted Hills
will make your taste buds explode.
Put a big, bright smile onyour face and whoever's at your dinner
table will have a big, big,bright smile on their face.
And you can thank me for that later.
(33:04):
Just go topaintedhillsbeef.com and find out
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You won't regret it.
Hey, everybody, J.T.
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This is an encore.
Welcome back To BarbecueNation here on the USA Radio Networks,
I'm JT along with LeanneWhippen and Amy Young Today from
(33:46):
Old World Spices, Amy is goingto stick around for the Spanish Inquisition
part of this show that isafter hours, so show me that.
A good part about that, Amy,is that doesn't air on the radio,
that just airs on the Internet.
So people have to want tolisten to that.
And unfortunately, a lot ofpeople do want to listen to that.
(34:10):
You were talking about gettingon store shelves and working with
a distributor, and I.
And if I bore you with this,I'm sorry, but when I was doing this,
I had to stop doing it becauseI didn't have enough time.
I was trying to do it all myself.
I had quite a few stores thatwere carrying it, mostly here in
(34:32):
the Northwest, but they wouldcall and say they would what I call
broken cases.
I don't know if that's theproper terminology anymore, but they
would want six bottles of thisand three bottles of this and blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah.
And then they'd want it delivered.
They may call you on Thursdayafternoon at 4 o', clock, but they'd
like it before noon on Friday.
(34:54):
So because the weekend'scoming, coming like that.
And I just couldn't make thatwork, so I, I stopped doing it.
But that's.
I think that's a part ofworking with a distributor.
A full service deal likeyou've got that is really good.
Because if you're trying to doit out of your backyard or if you're
(35:17):
just trying to ship, you know,from the post office, two bottles
every couple days, that's along road that way.
Jeff, I think what a lot ofpeople don't consider is the value
of your own time, say, oh,well, I can do it.
It doesn't cost me anything.
So, you know, I've had people,when we talk about our royalty program
(35:37):
and our distribution, and I'llsay, well, you know, you're going
to get 15% royalty.
So every bottle I move, I'mgoing to write you a check at the
end of the month for 15%.
15%?
That's ridiculous.
When I saw it myself, I made 50%.
And I think these people don'tknow business very well because they're
not netting 15, they're notnetting 50%, they're probably not
(35:59):
netting 4%.
When you take off your time,your gas, your money has been tied
up.
If you're taking out loans orbuying things on your credit card
and paying interest, all yourown personal overhead, trying to
do all of this.
At the end of the day, if youhave a good accountant, they're going
to say, you know What?
(36:20):
You netted 4% profit this year.
Well, if you can find apartner who's going to help you do
this, and you have zeroinvestment, and at the end of the
year, you know you're going tohave a check for 15% of all of your
efforts.
I'll make a 15% return anyday, any place.
You just tell me where to putmy money and I'll go do that.
(36:41):
You don't even have to put anymoney down because we're doing it
for you.
What we need on the other end,though, is a partnership.
I can't bring somebody inwho's just going to sit on their
butt and wait for their checkto come in.
I look for people to partnerwith who are aggressively out there
selling and promoting themselves.
Are you teaching classes?
Are you traveling and doing contests?
(37:01):
Are you busy on social media?
If you're getting.
Not everybody gets TVappearances because we all don't
look like Leanne or cook like Leanne.
But I always say, never say noto an opportunity to get yourself
out there, to get yourselfknown, because I can make the products
and I can maybe get it on theshelf for you, but then the consumer
(37:22):
has to want to buy your product.
So the more you're promoting,the more you're doing recipes and
cooking videos and justconnecting to people.
People will buy Leanne'sproduct because they like Leanne.
They feel like they know her.
They've seen her, they'vewatched her on tv, they've cheered
her on.
She is her brand.
(37:42):
Which we're going to work onthat one, Leigh.
We're going to work on the Lean.
You know, another.
Another.
I'm sorry to interrupt.
Go ahead.
No, no, no.
I'll talk on and on.
Go ahead.
Another very important thing,and I had this problem in the past
just with my barbecue teamback in the day, is trademarks.
(38:03):
I started investing in a logoand my team as Hickory Chicks Barbecue
and found out somebody hadtrademarked it afterwards.
Very small company.
It doesn't matter.
The trademark was out there.
And fortunately, I found outsoon enough, before I invested more
in my logo and branding toswitch it up.
And that's when I changed itto Wood Chicks, because I want it
(38:25):
to be something close.
But I think people need tounderstand the investment of a trademark
is well worth in business downthe road.
I think you can attest to that.
And we kind of.
Of.
I think we talked about this aLittle bit in Texas.
So if you could just shinesome light on that.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
So there are trademark andpatent attorneys that are worth their
(38:46):
weight in gold.
If you really want to investin a brand and a product and get
it out there, you can goonline and do your own trademark
search.
There's just the US government.
I think it's USTP.gov or something.
Yeah.
If you just go research.
Yeah.
US government trademarks, youcan find it.
And then they'll have a littlesearch field so you can put in a
(39:07):
name and it will come up andtell you anything.
That's close.
Anything.
Let's say just take wood chicks.
Okay.
There might be a wood chicknail file.
Okay.
That's not going to be inconflict with the food product.
So when you apply for atrademark and a lot of people don't
(39:29):
know this, usually you'recovering a food category or a. I'm
sorry, a consumer good category.
Right.
So you can't get it to, youknow, just blanket cover everything.
So they're going to look tosee if that's a conflict.
Now if you are a celebrity andyou have done, you've trademarked
your name or a nickname, ascreen name, something that you go
(39:51):
by that's a little different.
So Leanne, somebody couldn'ttake your name and go out and try
to.
Try to.
They have a Leanne bubble bathif you trademarked Leanne.
Okay.
So, but this is where it'sgood to have an attorney come in
because they can look at it.
Also hard to trademark aproduct that's not actually on the
(40:13):
market yet.
So the attorneys will tellyou, yes, it's taken or no, it's
not.
You can apply for it, but youbetter have it in the works because
they're going to want picturesof it.
It you have to show proof thatyou're actually doing something with
the name.
That keeps somebody from justgoing out there and grabbing a bunch
of names that, you know, justto hide them.
Right.
(40:33):
But it's very important toprotect yourself on that because
I one thing I have found thatpeople are not very creative, are
original.
You know, they don't likeLeanne did wood chicks and stuff.
I mean, she obviously put sometime and effort and thought into
that.
Most people will.
A lot of people, I shouldn'tsay not most people, but they will
(40:53):
like, oh, yeah, Bob's Barbecue.
My name's Bob.
So let's barbecue.
You know, and that's it.
And there's how many Bob'sBarbecues are there out there, you
know, 453,000.
You know, so you.
You've gotta.
You've on the business side ofthings, if you're gonna take it seriously.
Seriously, like you said, youneed to trademark that stuff, and
(41:17):
I'm living proof of that.
That so?
Yeah.
Well, and your.
Your comments about, you know,and brought this up earlier as well.
The.
The business.
This is a business, you guys.
You need a business plan.
If you think you're just gonnamake up something in your kitchen
and put a cute little funnyname on it and throw it out there
and make a million dollars,you're probably just wasting your
time and money.
But it'll be a fun little hobby.
We gotta get out of here.
(41:37):
Amy Young from Old WorldSpices, the executive vice president,
I should say back there, wethank you, and it was so much fun.
And like I said, you're gonnastick around for the after hours
and.
Absolutely.
Excellent as usual.
And so for Leanne and I andAmy, I want to bid you adieu.
Have a good weekend.
Go out there, do somebarbecuing, and remember our motto
(41:59):
here.
Turn it, don't burn it.
We'll see you next week.
Barbecue Nation is produced byJTSD LLC Productions in association
with Salem Media Group.
All rights reserved.
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