July 19, 2025 • 47 mins
The focal point of this episode centers around our engaging dialogue with Brian Lee from BT Lee's Barbecue, highlighting his remarkable journey in the barbecue sauce and rub industry. We delve into the intricacies of his business, discussing the challenges and triumphs he has encountered while navigating the competitive landscape of barbecue products. Brian shares insights into the evolution of his brand, emphasizing the importance of innovative flavors and the significance of maintaining a gluten-free promise to his consumers. Furthermore, we explore the shifting trends within the culinary world, particularly the rising demand for all-natural ingredients and the implications for production practices. As we converse, we reflect on the broader implications for small businesses striving to carve out a niche in an increasingly saturated market, underscoring the dedication required to succeed in this dynamic field.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- BT Lee's Barbecues
- Ace Hardware
- Meyer
- Kroger
- Publix
- Three Little Pigs
- Heritage Steel
- Hammerstahl
- Painted Hills
Mentioned in this episode:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:12):
It's time for Barbecue Nationwith JT So fire up your grill, light
the charcoal, and get yoursmoker cooking.
Now from the Turn It, Don'tBurn it studios in Portland, here's
jt.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome to the nation.
Barbecue Nation.
Oh, that's right.
I'm JT along with hall offamer Leanne Whippen.
Coming to you from ourrespective Turn It, Don't Burn it
(00:34):
studios on both ends of the country.
That's right.
And our guest today is kind ofin the middle of the country, Brian
Lee from BT lay's Barbecues.
And Brian's been on the showbefore and we always enjoyed his
company, so we invited him back.
Hey, buddy.
Pleasure to be back.
How are you?
(00:54):
I'm so honored to be.
To be hosted once again.
So what's going on in theBluegrass State?
Well, there's a bourbon,there's horses.
Yeah.
There's BT Lee's.
There you go.
We've.
I don't know if you know this,but it's hot down here.
Yeah.
Either hot or it's rainy.
(01:16):
That's what it feels like.
I'm very Florida.
Indeed.
I. I spent a lot of time inKentucky, Brian.
I. I know the feeling.
You might say.
Yeah, yeah.
But no, we're doing very well.
We're banging away, justgrowing leaps and bounds.
(01:38):
That's good news.
That's really good news.
And what do you attribute that to?
My wife.
Oh.
My director of art and marketing.
She has taken it upon herselfto hustle us up some salespeople.
So we've got multiple salesteams out there now pushing our brand
(02:01):
and banging on doors that wehitherto could not bang on.
So there we are.
Yeah, it's.
It's been a wild experience.
I. I feel like.
I feel like this businessgrows different every six months.
It feels like.
Yeah, like, like it used to be.
(02:24):
I'm making sauce on a stove ina 24, 20 quart pot, and now it's
a 45 gallon steam kettle.
And now it's 1500 pound run.
And now it's who knows how large.
And, you know, talking toindividual people is now talking
to buyers, and that's a wholenother ball game.
And what stores are you inright now?
(02:46):
Too many to mention or whatare your biggest.
So we've got.
We have been aggressivelypursuing Ace Hardware, so we're now
in about 40 locations of ACEHardware nationwide.
We've also been pursuing MeyerKroger Publix.
(03:09):
Pretty heavy, so we'll seewhere that goes.
But as it stands Right nowwe're in 247 stores nationwide at
the moment.
I just shipped out an order toTurlock, California, to an Ace Hardware
out there.
Great.
Cool.
So we'll see.
(03:29):
Well, I mean, see a lot of.
These Ace Hardwares, well,they're independently owned and some
people own, you know, like 4,5, 10, whatever it is.
So obviously you're targetingprobably the ones that are multiple
locations.
Yeah, we've been picked up bya couple groups.
Ace Hardware groups, mostnotably the Westlake Ace Hardware
(03:50):
group picked us up and theHouchen's Ace Hardware Group.
So between those, that's 280stores possible.
So, I mean, we're coming to atown near you that's, that's really
where it's at.
And this time of year, I'msure sales are picking up because
it's.
(04:10):
Tis the season.
Yeah, tis the season.
I feel like the slump afterthe Fourth of July to August is relatively
slow when it comes down to it.
People are either overgrilling because they did Memorial
Day, Father's Day, Fourth ofJuly, all back to back, and now they're
(04:32):
all just trying to find theirbest takeout place.
Then they get that desire backwhen Labor Day starts rearing its
head, or.
They'Re finishing up what they have.
Right?
Correct.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely.
I, I think, I think, I thinkyou're right about that because most
(04:54):
people don't immersethemselves in barbecue like we do.
Okay.
And so they go through those holidays.
It may even start as early asMother's Day in certain parts of
the country because of the weather.
By the time you get here, weare going into two weeks after the
(05:15):
4th of July.
It's hotter than hell in mostparts of the country.
And a lot of people are kindof, I think, and I get Leanne's take
on this too, as yours, Brian,but they're kind of fair weather
cooks, unless it's a, agathering, a picnic, barbecue, something
like that.
But they don't do it.
(05:36):
It's 105 degrees outside onthe deck.
They may not want to go outthere and, you know, cook that night
they like.
That's true.
They may be doing takeout orthey may just, you know, Swanson's
TV dinner in the microwave or something.
Yeah, I, I actually think thatthere's, there's a lot to that, especially
when you're, you're throwingin like 105 heat index out there.
(05:59):
Yeah.
Just sweat the moment you step outside.
You know, a lot of, a lot ofweekend warriors don't have covered
grill areas, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Have you added any new flavors?
Yeah, since we.
When was the last time?
It was 2022, I think was the.
Was the last time we've gotten.
(06:21):
I released a West Africanpeanut sauce.
Yum.
I love peanut sauce.
Well, I can send you the lastbottle of it.
Wow.
We are currently looking foranother producer of this, so this
is literally the last one fora while.
We released a salt peppergarlic blend with a lot of Eastern
(06:42):
European, northernMediterranean flavor.
It's kind of become a staplein a lot of places.
I had one guy tell me that itwas his desert island rub.
Like, if he had one that hewanted to just keep, you know, keep
him happy on a desert island,that would be it.
We released a zesty dillblend, something to deal with with
(07:03):
a little bit of bird's eyechilies, horseradish, lemongrass.
Fantastic.
Shrimp fantastic, like potatoes.
We make a German potato saladwith it.
We're about to release arecipe for dill pickle salad with
it.
Really cool.
And then the.
The most fun thing that I'vedone is we started releasing seasonal
(07:26):
blends.
So we.
Summer is just now wrapping up.
It's a strawberry honey Dijon blend.
So it's.
It smells like a summer salad.
Fantastic on pork, fantasticon chicken.
Love making a vinaigrette outof it.
(07:48):
I've made Rice Krispies treatswith it.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, yeah.
Pretty.
Pretty good.
Pretty good.
I'll have people asking me forthat in January, and I always hate
to tell them that it has tocome out in May, you know, but we've
built a pretty bigreoccurrence here of our seasonal
(08:10):
blends.
The strawberry honey Dijon is summer.
And next up is a warm apple bourbon.
I'm glad you didn't say pumpkin.
No, no.
Yeah.
Show would be a short show.
Yeah.
Thanks for having me, guys.
You know, I couldn't.
I couldn't do that.
(08:30):
That's.
That's.
No, no.
That.
That's just not right.
That's just.
As they say, it's.
It's just not right.
Brian, what's your lead timelike with your.
The, the deal stuff and the,the strawberry honey that are you.
Do you gear up for that?
(08:51):
Two months out for productionand you gotta allow for ship time
and all that stuff.
We.
We are about to drop the emailto our.
Our wholesalers for pre orderson autumn.
So it takes about two weeks.
Okay.
Takes about two weeks start to finish.
So we try.
(09:12):
We're going to try and have itin their hands on August 1st, when
we officially release it.
And then I'll run, I'll run ituntil it's done, you know, like,
I don't, I don't have a setnumber, but it's kind of, it's kind
of gone by feel, you know, andif there's a huge demand for it,
(09:34):
we'll just load up because itcan always extend over into the next,
the next quarter.
You know, we try not to, though.
You know, we try to build thatdemand and keep them coming back
for, for that kind of thing.
It's.
Thanks.
Starbucks pumpkin spice latte model.
Yeah.
Do you do a holiday pack?
(09:54):
Yes.
We bring back all four seasonsas a holiday pack and.
Cool.
Around Christmas time.
That's nice.
That's good for gifts.
Yeah, it is.
Yeah.
What about.
Have you ever considered doing something?
I mean, you and I talked onetime and you had sent out a note
(10:16):
to everybody and I had toldyou about an old salad dressing that
Bernstein's used to makecalled Spicy Sicilian.
Yeah.
And I did a little deep diveon that and they never did give a
clear reason why they stoppedproducing it because I know it sold.
(10:37):
Right.
But, but I have no reason.
Are you, do you like toexperiment with stuff like that?
Yeah, we, we've got, we've gotideas and avenue, like more product
lines that we would like tobring out.
Yeah.
As, as is, I've got a stableof about seven salad dressings that
(10:59):
I would love to bring out.
Right.
We'd also like to tip our toeinto dredges, that kind of thing.
Sure.
So like, for the, the, the bigtrick on that though is that since
one of our brand promises isgluten free, so it would all have
to be rice flour, you know,that kind of.
(11:21):
Right.
Tapioca.
Tapioca flour.
Right.
Side deal.
But salad dressings aredefinitely in a future list.
But since we've beenwholesaling so off so much, we've
kind of had to focus in, youknow, and establish as what you are,
you know, versus just goingsuper wide with it and then chicken
(11:44):
with a head cut off, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sometimes the, the, maybe thestarting line, if you will, is a
bit of a shotgun approach.
But then you've got to getdown to smaller bore, so to speak,
you know.
What's your number one?
What's your number one seller?
Number one selling sauce isthe Clevelander.
(12:06):
It's the mustard maplerosemary sauce.
That's 25 out of my 65 awards,including the worldwide Mustard Championship.
Kind of proud about that one.
Yeah.
I like to tell everybody thatI no longer.
I start attributing hugs likeI've been hugged five times for this
sauce versus, you know, thatkind of thing.
(12:28):
Number one rub is a tricky onebecause everyone's got their mileage,
you know, everyone's got their things.
So our barbecue rub isdefinitely a churner.
But our taco seasoning mightbe the one that wins repeats because
it's really hard to find agood gluten free taco seasoning.
(12:50):
Cool.
We're going to go ahead andtake a break here for our commercial
products down the line.
Leanne and Brian and I will beback on Barbecue Nation in just a
second.
Stay with us.
(13:11):
Hey, everybody, it's Jeff here.
I want to tell you aboutsomething really cool.
Heritage steel cookware.
I just got mine.
I do a lot of cooking and it'sgot five ply construction.
Stay cool handles.
It's titanium strengthened.
It's got all the great stuff.
Just go to HeritageSteel usand find out more.
You'll love it.
I guarantee it.
(13:42):
Welcome back to the Nation.
That's Barbecue Nation.
We've got Brian Lay with us today.
I'm saying that right?
Lee or Lay Lee.
Like Bruce Lee?
Like Bruce Lee.
Okay.
Sorry about that, bud.
That's all right.
If you're like me, you'veprobably been called worse.
I've been called worse for sure.
If you want to check us outonline, you can just go to bbqnationjt.com
(14:04):
we're on all the social mediaplatforms along with radio stations
and all that.
And you can follow us onFacebook and Twitter.
And leanne's got a million17,432 followers.
So I have four, but she's gota couple more than I do.
So anyway, you can find thisanywhere like that.
(14:25):
Do you think that we had a guyon the show last week?
Let me back up a second, Brian.
We had to go.
A fellow who I had nevertalked to before.
I don't.
I think Leanne had run acrosshim a couple times, Chris Martz from
Three Little Pigs.
And we were talking about therub and sauce business.
And so it's kind ofappropriate that you are our follow
(14:46):
up guest after that.
But he was talking aboutsauces in particular, that he felt
that we've kind of reached aceiling, an apex on people's, especially
at the retail level.
I don't remember how hephrased it, Leanne.
Like we're almost sauced outor something like that.
A soft ceiling.
(15:07):
But you're established.
You've got an establishedbrand now.
You've been out there for morethan a couple of weeks.
And so I think what Chris wasreferring to is, you know, somebody
goes out and wins acompetition somewhere and says, I've
got the whole family recipeand it's all good.
And then there's this milehigh climb to get it on a store shelf.
(15:28):
Yeah.
Not talking about onlinesales, just to get it in front of
warm bodies in a retailsetting like that.
And how difficult is that?
And his feeling was, is thatwe've got so many similar flavor
profiles.
Yeah.
Yours are not.
Yours are fantastic.
(15:48):
But you've, you've continuallyin the.
That.
What's that?
That's the 416 train.
The train.
That's the train.
But you've continued to, youknow, have a baseline and build from
there.
I just wanted to get yourthoughts on basically in the sauce
business about that.
(16:09):
So I was always told by acouple people early on in this business
that you don't talk aboutthree things.
Right.
Don't bring up politics, don'tbring up religion, don't bring up
barbecue, because you're goingto end up starting a fight with somebody
every time.
Everyone's got their own thing.
(16:31):
And with sauces, the mileage,the taste profiles and everything
like that is so differentacross everybody.
Right.
Some people like it vinegary,some people like it spicier, some
people like it.
They don't want any vinegar,they want no tang whatsoever.
And it's really difficult toplease everybody.
(16:55):
So ultimately please yourself,you know, and if you believe in your
product enough and you've comeup with something that you find that
you love, that will bubbleover to your would be fans, evangelists,
for lack of a better word.
No, there's.
(17:15):
It's.
I think it's the hardestcategory in food.
I think barbecue sauces inparticular are the hardest category
in food because everyone's gottheir specifics right.
Right.
Everyone's also comparingthemselves to the on the store shelf
barbecue stuff, the massproduced things, the established
(17:37):
brands.
Even though you're not that atall, especially as a small person,
you're not that at all.
So it's hard, it's hard tofind the middle ground on that and
figure out your lane for success.
You know, he's not wrong.
(17:58):
There is a saturation in it.
I mean, the pandemic hit andeverybody and their uncle decided
to do barbecue and all of themwent into a rub or a sauce.
The amount of sauce brandsthat were birthed during that time
is staggering, you know, andEveryone, everyone that, that has
(18:21):
gone into it had a passion forit, but they don't necessarily have
the stomach for it.
And that's the, that's thekicker part, because making a good
product is one thing.
Getting on a shelf is a wholenother ball game.
Oh, yeah, you know, you gotta,you gotta sell your product without
that tasting it.
And that's very difficult forsome people.
(18:44):
Well, and to one of yourpoints there, Brian, I think, I think
Chris was talking about like20 years ago, if you will, you went,
went to the grocery store andyou had Sweet Baby Rays and you had
the craft, three or fourflavors, you know, and maybe stubs
(19:07):
at that point, you know what I mean?
There was just a handful.
And what I did back then was Iwould buy the craft stuff or Sweet
Baby Rays or whatever, andthen I'd use that as a base and start
going home and put my ownstuff in it, you know, like that.
(19:28):
And I don't think I'm alone in that.
I think a lot of people did that.
And so it's, you know, halfthe work was done, if you will, with
that, and all the work wasdone about the accessibility of it
because you can go to aKroger, you could go to a Safeway,
you could go to a Stop and Robon the corner and somebody had a
(19:50):
bottle of brown barbecue sauce there.
I'm sorry, Stop and Rob.
That's a good one.
Yeah, that's a good one.
It's not, it's not what wecall them.
Yeah, we, we said stab and grab.
Stab and grab.
Okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I might have been in a littlemore rougher, a rougher neighborhood
than you.
Yeah, well, we had a Stop andRob, so you can keep the car running,
(20:12):
I guess.
I don't know.
But anyway, yeah, I just think people.
Are more health consciousthese days.
Right.
So your brand appeals to thegluten free, et cetera.
And that's obviously yourmarketing and everything else.
And it justifies the higherprice point too.
(20:33):
100%.
Absolutely does.
And I feel like.
Go ahead.
No, I was just going to say noseed oils.
That's another thing.
We made that transition herein the last six months because a
lot of our fan base was like,hey, we're no longer doing soybean
oil.
We can't have your stuff.
So we moved to avocado oil,you know, and that's, that's a big,
(20:55):
that's a big draw for a lot ofpeople, you know, along with, you
know, all natural.
I know that's a buzzword in,in our industry.
But whole food versus, youknow, manufactured food, that is
a, that is also a very large thing.
Well, I, I, yeah, I think so.
We got to take another break.
(21:15):
I'm gonna pick that up on theother side.
We're gonna come back in aminute here to the Nation with Leanne
and Brian and myself.
Hey, everybody, it's JT And Ihave eaten.
If you've ever looked at me,you know that.
(21:36):
But I have eaten seafood allover the world, and I can tell you
there's no place better thanhere in Oregon and our Dungeness
crab.
If you want to learn moreabout Oregon Dungeness crab, just
go to oregondungeness.org findout how to cook it, how to catch
it, where to buy it, and thesustainability of what they're doing
there in the Oregon Crab Commission.
(21:56):
Check it out.
Welcome back to the Nation.
I'm JT along with BT and Law.
How's that?
(22:18):
And this is the part of theshow where we talk.
Have Law talk about her.
No, I want her pig powder.
Yeah.
So I can relate to Brian andhis business, and it's tough out
there, but pig powder haswithstood the test of time.
It's been around, oh, gosh, 30plus years.
Still going strong.
(22:40):
Spicy rabbit's coming out, andit is sweet with a little bit of
heat.
Pig powder can be found onAmazon at the Kansas City Barbecue
store.
Currently, actually, I'm outof it online, but expecting a shipment.
I won best rub on the planet.
And, Brian, you're proud ofyour Clevelander sauce, too, for
(23:01):
winning awards.
And awards are noteworthybecause there is a lot of rubs and
sauces out there, and thereare hundreds that go into various
competitions, and they'retested not only for the flavor itself,
but on food, which I canappreciate in a lot of these contests.
So anyway, pig powder, very versatile.
(23:24):
Rub can be used on fish, pork,chicken, French fries, baked beans,
Cocoa Puffs.
Yeah, Cocoa Puffs.
There you go.
Scrambled eggs.
You know, one.
One to your point, Brian,before we went to break, I get a
lot of samples.
I, I know Leanne gets samples.
People want to send yousamples and stuff.
(23:46):
People we've had on the showhave been very kind and sent us,
you know, I gotta send yousome of my product.
Fine.
Your stuff tastes good.
It does.
And it's different.
It's really different becauseof the ingredients you use, and they
really are excellent.
(24:06):
I have one kind of sidequestion for you.
Glass versus plastic.
What are your thoughts on that?
Glass.
I'm a big proponent of glass.
And is that because it kind ofmakes it more high end?
Is it because it lasts longer?
(24:27):
There's a few, few reasons.
One shelf life.
I feel like things just tastebetter on a glass, you know, like
that's just my.
If you give me a bourbon in arocks glass versus a red Zolo cup,
I think it's going to tastebetter out of the rocks glass.
Yeah.
And you don't get beer inplastic, really.
(24:47):
Right, exactly, exactly.
Plus, and again, there's noscientific data to back this up.
I've just spitball in here.
I got a certain amount of acidin these and I don't know if that
interacts with plastic in any way.
I do know that for my crowd,glass is preferred.
You know, plus it's recyclable.
(25:08):
You know, some people makevases out of them, which is funny.
And in my.
I found people sending mepictures of clevelander bottles with
tulips in it and stuff like that.
Shipping breakage.
Yeah.
What about breakage and weight?
So breakage and weight.
Weight is a little.
(25:29):
It can get heavy.
That's true.
We found a shipper that shipsbeer bottles.
Essentially it's an insertthat we can wrap this into in a two
pack.
Right, right.
It's a 12 by 3 by 3permutation of a box.
(25:50):
Right.
And we've had very little inthe way of breakage since we moved
to those.
And truthfully, the, you know,we buy them, we buy them by the pallet
and the cost to do that ispretty negligible because of the
volume that we buy them in.
Sure.
You know, it's actuallycheaper than bubble wrap and better
(26:10):
breakage wise.
You know, back when I was.
I did some rubs and stuff andI did glass bottles and a little
hermetically sealed safetything and then the lid went on and
you know, all that.
And a couple of distributorswho shall remain nameless at that
(26:36):
time, now this was quite awhile ago, they didn't like the glass.
Got to go to plastic.
You got to go to plastic.
You got to go to plastic.
And I refused to go to plasticone because.
And I think my theory, again,no science behind this.
(26:57):
But just like you were saying,my theory is that you read a lot
of reports now that say you'vegot 27 parts per billion of plastic
particles in your food or inyour seasonings like that.
And we didn't know that stuffback then.
I just knew that glass was cleaner.
(27:17):
I actually felt that eventhough plastic would bounce if you
dropped it, the.
I thought, I actually thoughtit was safer because being around
barbecues, really high heatsources, plastic kind of go like
that.
Right.
And glass can get hot and ifyou're silly about it, you can burn
(27:39):
your fingers.
Hopefully nobody ever does that.
I just never liked the.
That was me.
I didn't like the plastic.
Now if you buy bulk stuff andyou go buy PC ones, that's going
to come in plastic, most of it.
Okay, I understand that, butthat's designed for people that understand
(28:01):
what we're doing.
That's not for the average consumer.
I mean, they can buy it ifthey want it.
But the point is PC ones arefor commercial kitchens, et cetera,
et cetera.
Right.
So that was always my theorybehind using glass.
And I caught the dickens abunch for it being too heavy.
You know, if they bought 10cases of stuff, that was £120 of
(28:27):
product there, whatever.
So anyway, we, we've kind ofsplit the uprights on that because
we do use your classic 8.4ounce plastic bottle.
We moved to this from a tinback in the day, like in the beginning,
(28:47):
we went to, from tin to bag,craft paper bag to that.
And I will say that sales wentup drastically the moment we did
this.
Sure.
Convenience and perception,you know.
Yeah, yeah.
All of a sudden, oh, you looklike you're playing with the big
(29:08):
boys, you know, or big girlsas it is, you know, that's terrible.
It's okay.
The adults in the room.
Right, yeah, yeah.
And, and that, that definitely helped.
I would, I would love, I wouldlove to go to a glass or a, an aluminum
(29:30):
deal shaker at some point.
But you know, feasibility forcost is just not there.
Right, right.
Well, this was 20 years ago orso when I was doing it, so it's exponentially
different now.
But yeah.
I just always, I was a glass guy.
(29:52):
Plus I figured if you spilledsomething on it, you know, got some
sauce on it or gravy orwhatever, you could wipe it off easier
and put it back up on the shelf.
And it didn't look like yourdog carried it off to the woodshed,
you know what I mean?
So, and we're, we're findingthat like the cost, the shipping
cost is actually fairlynegligible nowadays.
(30:14):
Yeah, it doesn't matter.
I feel like it doesn't matteras long as we're under the 25 pound
mark or the 50 pound mark forUPS, then you don't get the bump,
you know.
But from, from 5 to 25, it'sthe same volumetrics matter too.
(30:37):
But you know, the size of thebottle is Going to be the same for
the most part.
So you were saying on yourpeanut sauce you were going to a
different producer or manufacturer.
Do you use multiple manufacturers?
As it stands right now, whatwe did for the peanut sauce, we went
(30:57):
off of where we went.
I try to keep everythinglocalized to Kentucky because I'm
a big proponent of the localof the Kentucky Proud program.
They're fantastic human beingswith fantastic everything.
And I like.
I like supporting as local asI possibly can.
That being said, we could notfind a producer that was willing
(31:18):
to touch peanuts within thestate of Kentucky, so we had to go
out to Florida.
Interesting.
But they have since become anallergen regulated facility, so we're
in the process of trying tofind somebody else.
Mm.
Got a couple irons in the fireon it, but that's hard.
(31:43):
It's really difficult.
Peanuts are hard.
And I don't want to do itmyself because I ain't got time for
that.
That's a lot of work too.
I find it interesting there'sa correlation there that.
And what you're saying is correct.
It's hard.
But I think peanuts are thenumber one selling nut in the world
or something like that.
So not everybody has an allergy.
(32:06):
No, no, not at all.
But the, the way it wasexplained to me by my, my main co
Packer is that even if therewas even a mention of peanuts, the
FDA would make you put on yourlabel produced in a facility with.
I've seen that.
Yeah.
But that's.
Every single product thatwould come from that facility would
(32:28):
have to have their labelsredesigned and have that added.
So when you're.
Because it's airborne, so.
Exactly, exactly.
So you're in a, you're in ahigh, high production area.
You know, I don't want to bethe person that makes seven or eight
other brands change their,their labels.
(32:49):
Sure.
Well, they would love you.
They would love me.
Shake fisted Sky.
Yeah.
Well, you know, it is what it is.
Do you?
You know, we got a coupleminutes before we got to go to break,
Brian, but we were talkingabout sauces.
What about rubs?
As far as saturation point?
(33:11):
That's a good one.
Yeah.
There's a lot of them.
There's a lot of them.
There's a lot more of themthan there are sauces.
Yeah.
And for, for sure.
I feel like the uphill battlewith, with spice blends is.
Oh, I can do that myself.
You know, that's the, that'sthe uphill battle with it because
(33:31):
you have, you've got theweekend warrior right for lack of
better words on that.
That's just going to try stuffbecause they're getting.
They're dipping their toe intosmoking or they just really enjoy
firing up a grill and they'llchange it every time.
They don't have a tried andtrue method yet, you know, or.
Or anything of that nature.
(33:53):
Their recipes change.
So they give things a shot.
Right.
But you get, like, the realhardcore smokers and the hardcore
pit masters.
They don't buy other people.
Maybe they buy your stuff, Leanne.
They do.
They do.
They do.
(34:14):
But most of the time, you'regoing to see.
Well, I take brown sugar,black pepper, some chili powder,
and I mix it myself when I'mdoing pork, you know.
Yeah, yeah.
But I will say that rubsoutsell our sauces lately.
In the last two years, rubs have.
(34:35):
Have dominated it.
Dominated it.
Cool.
We're going to take another break.
We're going to be back withBrian Lee from BT Lee's Barbecue
Sauces Rubs.
And he's Kentuckian, and Ilove that.
We'll be right back.
At least now he's Kentuckian.
(35:01):
Hey, everybody, it's J.T.
you know, I talk about paintedhills all the time, and we always
say beef the way nature intended.
But it's more than thatbecause each bite of painted hills
will make your taste buds explode.
Put a big, bright smile onyour face, and whoever's at your
dinner table will have a big,bright smile on their face.
And you can thank me for that later.
(35:21):
Just go topaintedhillsbeef.com and find out
more.
You won't regret it.
Hey, everybody, J.T.
here.
I want to tell you aboutHammerstahl knives.
Hammerstahl combines Germansteel with beautiful and functioning
designs.
They're part of the HeritageSteel Group, which also does their
pots and pans.
So go to Heritagesteel USCheck out the Hammerstahl knives.
(35:43):
If you're really into cook, Ithink you're really gonna like them.
Welcome back to the nation.
I am here with Leanne andBrian and kind of.
(36:04):
I miss Kentucky.
Yeah, I don't regret moving here.
Yeah, I love the state.
Yeah, it was a great state andhad a lot of fun there, and the people
were very nice and for themost part.
And, yeah, there's always alittle of that everywhere you go.
But, yeah, it was.
(36:24):
And it was beautiful.
I could just never crack thehumidity code when I was there, because
I was always there either deadmiddle of winter or dead middle of
summer.
I could never seem to go inthe spring and the fall when Things
were a little more mellow, you know.
Yeah.
My wife convinced me to movedown here by telling me that we would
(36:46):
be moving from airconditioning to air conditioning
instead of having to brush offthe car, warm the car, drive 15 minutes
in snow, you know, get out ofthe snow, bundle up the whole thing.
So I'm.
I don't regret trading in 180inches of snow for eight.
(37:07):
And those eight completelyshut down the area.
Oh, yeah.
Like here in Oregon.
Whiff of snow.
Oh.
Weather alert.
You know, what kind of advicewould you give somebody who's starting
out in the sauce and spice industry?
Buy a PH reader.
(37:27):
Really?
For sauces?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Know your pHs and learn tolove the gram and not Instagram.
Gram.
Grams.
Yeah, everything in grams.
Why is the PH so important?
Shelf life, stability.
You know, you don't want toaccidentally kill somebody with a
botul item or anything like that.
(37:49):
You want it to be under yourrecommended PH meters.
And, you know, find your goodprocess authority if you're going
to do it the right way or notthe right way, the hard way, if you're
going to do it yourself, youknow, go through your better process
control school, find a processauthority, work through all the stuff,
(38:09):
make sure it's to the gram,and make sure you've got a good rapport
with your health department sothey can review your labels accordingly.
Oh, yeah, there's a.
There's a lot.
There's a lot to it.
And one of the things that,you know, I'm very proud of my brand
and how we've grown and how westarted, but I've helped quite a
(38:34):
few sauce manufacturers getoff the ground, you know, with labels
and verifications and designs.
Sure.
And that kind of stuff.
Just navigating the pitfallsof this because there's no good information.
Sometimes.
Sometimes I feel like it's thewild west, you know, of just trying
(38:55):
to find the information tobuild your brand or to.
To take your sauce to market,you know, and people just don't.
They don't know.
They don't know that you needto put this on a label or you're
going to get bounced by thefda, you know?
Well, and I. I think if you goto a distributor, we've had people
(39:16):
tell us, and I've talked aboutpeople personally off the air and
stuff, that they said theywere going to do a sauce and they
made a sauce and they went toa distributor and the distributor
looked at him and said, whatare you doing?
And.
Because where's this?
(39:36):
Where's your ingredient?
List.
Where's your, you know, allthe verifications that you were just
speaking of all this, youknow, does it have to be refrigerated?
Does it, you know, the, the,and the list, like you said, is lengthy
and I think that probablydissuades maybe some people along
(39:59):
the way that have a goodproduct potentially.
Yeah, I, I think it does.
I think it does.
I think some people look at it.
And say, yeah, no, not as easyas I thought.
Not as easy as I thought.
And then if they go to a COpacker, you know, the CO packer,
the minimums on a CO packersometimes are just mind boggling
(40:22):
to folks, you know, especially.
They're just starting, you know.
Well, what are you going to dowith 24,000 bottles of a sauce that
doesn't sell?
Right, correct.
That's got a, that's got a 18month shelf life on it.
Yeah.
You know, going to be down atthe Stop and Rob or the Grab and
Stab or whatever you call it.
(40:45):
Barbecue sauce for a buck.
I don't know.
Yeah, you try and move it asfast as possible, I guess.
Yeah.
You know, but I think that's,it's come a long ways.
Not just the sauces, but the,the blends, the rubs.
Do you go to food shows?
So we had a presence at theDallas Market center for a while.
(41:10):
We were invited to go to fancyfood this time around, but we just
could not swing the timecommitment for it at this point.
That's very, in the very nearfuture, we will be there.
You know, like there is,there's no way around that, you know,
(41:32):
not that I'm saying thatthat's a, that's a chore because
I think it's going to be superfun, you know, but I just, I look
at it and I get tired, you know.
A lot of expense too.
A lot of expense.
Yeah.
And you gotta lug all yoursauce there or ship it there.
Yeah.
So got a couple minutes lefthere, Brian.
(41:53):
Where do you see B.T.
lee's two years, five yearsfrom now?
Where do you hope to see it?
Oh, man.
So I'm hoping that within thenext year we'll grow to a thousand
locations nationwide and startreally digging into the regional
(42:14):
Mid Atlantic area for saucesand rubs as is.
Tennessee loves us, Ohio lovesus, Indiana loves us and Kentucky
loves us.
And a big portion of Texasloves us and, or knows about us.
We would like to be in, in theACE Main catalog by that time, you
(42:38):
know, and in, in five years.
I just keep going, keep going,you know.
Is it easier to deal with Acelike that than it is to deal with
like a super chain like Kroger?
So as Leanne pointed out, alot of Ace hardwares are independently
(43:00):
owned, right?
So you can go in and you canpitch to the owner directly.
I had a great conversationwith an owner named Greg down in
Tennessee recently.
And you know, you get honestanswers from them.
You know, you, you say, well,we, we would pick you up, but you
(43:23):
need a certain amount ofsocial following now, or you need
to have your name out there,or you've got to have something that's
a driving factor to get themin the store to purchase you, you
know, and since we're such aboots on the ground initiative in
a lot of ways, like I show upto towns and I do shows, I do farmer's
markets, I do demos, whereverI'm sold, You know, I try and get
(43:48):
the flavor in there in theirminds and mouths as much as possible.
And then they meet me, youknow, and I'm the guy on the bottle
and, oh, it's the guy on thebottle, you know, like, that's a,
that's a thing.
And it works out that way.
But to your point, I thinkit's easier to get into small, independently
(44:13):
own things than it is to getinto larger chains.
There's a barrier to entrythat a small brand has a hard time
achieving.
I'm lucky because my directorof art and sales, marketing director
(44:34):
is a fantastic designer andshe's done this.
And we look so professional.
Like our sell sheets aregorgeous, you know, and they have
all the pertinent informationand we've got all the assets and
all that stuff, but not everybrand has that readily available
(44:56):
to them.
And if they do, they have topay for it.
Right?
And I've got my wife onretainer and it has made so many
people mad that I dominate hertime because we did have, we have
other barbecue brands andwineries and that kind of stuff that
are vying for her attention too.
(45:17):
And I'm just like, ah, youknow, I, I can't give her up right
now.
And, and that's, and thathelps get your foot in the door.
And then you got to sell itand you got to know what your price
points are and you got to.
Know.
What the, what the temperatureof the trending is, you know, all
(45:40):
natural, gluten free, veganfriendly, vegan friendly barbecue
is on the rise.
Which I never thought I wouldever say those words, you know, in
the same sentence.
In the same sentence.
But it is a Big, big trendthat's out there.
And people care more aboutwhat's on the back of the bottle
than the front of the bottleor what's in the bottle anymore.
(46:02):
It seems like I get so manypeople that actually first thing
they do is they look at it,they're like, oh, that's you.
And then they just turn itaround and they're like.
Oh.
Soybean oil.
You know, and that's, that'sjust a, you know, even though.
So soybean oil is like 1% ofthe bottle tops.
(46:25):
You know, it was just a non starter.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Brian Lee from.
Sorry about that.
Brian Lee from BT Lee'sBarbecue and Rubs and Sauces, now
residing in Kentucky, Bowling Green.
Is that correct?
There you go.
Beautiful town.
Brian's gonna stick around forafter hours.
Got a few new questions for him.
(46:47):
Can they find John line?
Oh, yeah.
Btleads.com B T L E I G HS.com or if you, if you search for
smoked stuffed jalapenos,apparently we're number one.
Okay for that.
So that's a recipe.
We got a full, fullyoperational recipe blog on there
(47:07):
and I write articles and youcan also find all of our sauces and
all that jazz.
Excellent, Excellent, Brian.
Thank you, Leanne.
Thank you, folks.
Thank you for letting us sharesome time with you this week and
next week we'll be back.
Don't know who with, but it'salways somebody.
Anyway, for Leanne and Brian,myself, thanks for listening.
(47:28):
Remember our motto, turn it,don't burn it, go out, have some
fun, and take care, everybody.
Barbecue Nation is produced byjtsd, LLC Productions in association
with Salem Media Group.
All rights reserved.
It.
It's time for Barbecue Nationwith JT So fire up your grill, light
the charcoal, and get yoursmoker cooking.
Now from the Turn It, Don'tBurn it studios in Portland, here's
jt.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome to the nation.
Barbecue Nation.
Oh, that's right.
I'm JT along with hall offamer Leanne Whippen.
Coming to you from ourrespective Turn It, Don't Burn it
(00:34):
studios on both ends of the country.
That's right.
And our guest today is kind ofin the middle of the country, Brian
Lee from BT lay's Barbecues.
And Brian's been on the showbefore and we always enjoyed his
company, so we invited him back.
Hey, buddy.
Pleasure to be back.
How are you?
(00:54):
I'm so honored to be.
To be hosted once again.
So what's going on in theBluegrass State?
Well, there's a bourbon,there's horses.
Yeah.
There's BT Lee's.
There you go.
We've.
I don't know if you know this,but it's hot down here.
Yeah.
Either hot or it's rainy.
(01:16):
That's what it feels like.
I'm very Florida.
Indeed.
I. I spent a lot of time inKentucky, Brian.
I. I know the feeling.
You might say.
Yeah, yeah.
But no, we're doing very well.
We're banging away, justgrowing leaps and bounds.
(01:38):
That's good news.
That's really good news.
And what do you attribute that to?
My wife.
Oh.
My director of art and marketing.
She has taken it upon herselfto hustle us up some salespeople.
So we've got multiple salesteams out there now pushing our brand
(02:01):
and banging on doors that wehitherto could not bang on.
So there we are.
Yeah, it's.
It's been a wild experience.
I. I feel like.
I feel like this businessgrows different every six months.
It feels like.
Yeah, like, like it used to be.
(02:24):
I'm making sauce on a stove ina 24, 20 quart pot, and now it's
a 45 gallon steam kettle.
And now it's 1500 pound run.
And now it's who knows how large.
And, you know, talking toindividual people is now talking
to buyers, and that's a wholenother ball game.
And what stores are you inright now?
(02:46):
Too many to mention or whatare your biggest.
So we've got.
We have been aggressivelypursuing Ace Hardware, so we're now
in about 40 locations of ACEHardware nationwide.
We've also been pursuing MeyerKroger Publix.
(03:09):
Pretty heavy, so we'll seewhere that goes.
But as it stands Right nowwe're in 247 stores nationwide at
the moment.
I just shipped out an order toTurlock, California, to an Ace Hardware
out there.
Great.
Cool.
So we'll see.
(03:29):
Well, I mean, see a lot of.
These Ace Hardwares, well,they're independently owned and some
people own, you know, like 4,5, 10, whatever it is.
So obviously you're targetingprobably the ones that are multiple
locations.
Yeah, we've been picked up bya couple groups.
Ace Hardware groups, mostnotably the Westlake Ace Hardware
(03:50):
group picked us up and theHouchen's Ace Hardware Group.
So between those, that's 280stores possible.
So, I mean, we're coming to atown near you that's, that's really
where it's at.
And this time of year, I'msure sales are picking up because
it's.
(04:10):
Tis the season.
Yeah, tis the season.
I feel like the slump afterthe Fourth of July to August is relatively
slow when it comes down to it.
People are either overgrilling because they did Memorial
Day, Father's Day, Fourth ofJuly, all back to back, and now they're
(04:32):
all just trying to find theirbest takeout place.
Then they get that desire backwhen Labor Day starts rearing its
head, or.
They'Re finishing up what they have.
Right?
Correct.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely.
I, I think, I think, I thinkyou're right about that because most
(04:54):
people don't immersethemselves in barbecue like we do.
Okay.
And so they go through those holidays.
It may even start as early asMother's Day in certain parts of
the country because of the weather.
By the time you get here, weare going into two weeks after the
(05:15):
4th of July.
It's hotter than hell in mostparts of the country.
And a lot of people are kindof, I think, and I get Leanne's take
on this too, as yours, Brian,but they're kind of fair weather
cooks, unless it's a, agathering, a picnic, barbecue, something
like that.
But they don't do it.
(05:36):
It's 105 degrees outside onthe deck.
They may not want to go outthere and, you know, cook that night
they like.
That's true.
They may be doing takeout orthey may just, you know, Swanson's
TV dinner in the microwave or something.
Yeah, I, I actually think thatthere's, there's a lot to that, especially
when you're, you're throwingin like 105 heat index out there.
(05:59):
Yeah.
Just sweat the moment you step outside.
You know, a lot of, a lot ofweekend warriors don't have covered
grill areas, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Have you added any new flavors?
Yeah, since we.
When was the last time?
It was 2022, I think was the.
Was the last time we've gotten.
(06:21):
I released a West Africanpeanut sauce.
Yum.
I love peanut sauce.
Well, I can send you the lastbottle of it.
Wow.
We are currently looking foranother producer of this, so this
is literally the last one fora while.
We released a salt peppergarlic blend with a lot of Eastern
(06:42):
European, northernMediterranean flavor.
It's kind of become a staplein a lot of places.
I had one guy tell me that itwas his desert island rub.
Like, if he had one that hewanted to just keep, you know, keep
him happy on a desert island,that would be it.
We released a zesty dillblend, something to deal with with
(07:03):
a little bit of bird's eyechilies, horseradish, lemongrass.
Fantastic.
Shrimp fantastic, like potatoes.
We make a German potato saladwith it.
We're about to release arecipe for dill pickle salad with
it.
Really cool.
And then the.
The most fun thing that I'vedone is we started releasing seasonal
(07:26):
blends.
So we.
Summer is just now wrapping up.
It's a strawberry honey Dijon blend.
So it's.
It smells like a summer salad.
Fantastic on pork, fantasticon chicken.
Love making a vinaigrette outof it.
(07:48):
I've made Rice Krispies treatswith it.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, yeah.
Pretty.
Pretty good.
Pretty good.
I'll have people asking me forthat in January, and I always hate
to tell them that it has tocome out in May, you know, but we've
built a pretty bigreoccurrence here of our seasonal
(08:10):
blends.
The strawberry honey Dijon is summer.
And next up is a warm apple bourbon.
I'm glad you didn't say pumpkin.
No, no.
Yeah.
Show would be a short show.
Yeah.
Thanks for having me, guys.
You know, I couldn't.
I couldn't do that.
(08:30):
That's.
That's.
No, no.
That.
That's just not right.
That's just.
As they say, it's.
It's just not right.
Brian, what's your lead timelike with your.
The, the deal stuff and the,the strawberry honey that are you.
Do you gear up for that?
(08:51):
Two months out for productionand you gotta allow for ship time
and all that stuff.
We.
We are about to drop the emailto our.
Our wholesalers for pre orderson autumn.
So it takes about two weeks.
Okay.
Takes about two weeks start to finish.
So we try.
(09:12):
We're going to try and have itin their hands on August 1st, when
we officially release it.
And then I'll run, I'll run ituntil it's done, you know, like,
I don't, I don't have a setnumber, but it's kind of, it's kind
of gone by feel, you know, andif there's a huge demand for it,
(09:34):
we'll just load up because itcan always extend over into the next,
the next quarter.
You know, we try not to, though.
You know, we try to build thatdemand and keep them coming back
for, for that kind of thing.
It's.
Thanks.
Starbucks pumpkin spice latte model.
Yeah.
Do you do a holiday pack?
(09:54):
Yes.
We bring back all four seasonsas a holiday pack and.
Cool.
Around Christmas time.
That's nice.
That's good for gifts.
Yeah, it is.
Yeah.
What about.
Have you ever considered doing something?
I mean, you and I talked onetime and you had sent out a note
(10:16):
to everybody and I had toldyou about an old salad dressing that
Bernstein's used to makecalled Spicy Sicilian.
Yeah.
And I did a little deep diveon that and they never did give a
clear reason why they stoppedproducing it because I know it sold.
(10:37):
Right.
But, but I have no reason.
Are you, do you like toexperiment with stuff like that?
Yeah, we, we've got, we've gotideas and avenue, like more product
lines that we would like tobring out.
Yeah.
As, as is, I've got a stableof about seven salad dressings that
(10:59):
I would love to bring out.
Right.
We'd also like to tip our toeinto dredges, that kind of thing.
Sure.
So like, for the, the, the bigtrick on that though is that since
one of our brand promises isgluten free, so it would all have
to be rice flour, you know,that kind of.
(11:21):
Right.
Tapioca.
Tapioca flour.
Right.
Side deal.
But salad dressings aredefinitely in a future list.
But since we've beenwholesaling so off so much, we've
kind of had to focus in, youknow, and establish as what you are,
you know, versus just goingsuper wide with it and then chicken
(11:44):
with a head cut off, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sometimes the, the, maybe thestarting line, if you will, is a
bit of a shotgun approach.
But then you've got to getdown to smaller bore, so to speak,
you know.
What's your number one?
What's your number one seller?
Number one selling sauce isthe Clevelander.
(12:06):
It's the mustard maplerosemary sauce.
That's 25 out of my 65 awards,including the worldwide Mustard Championship.
Kind of proud about that one.
Yeah.
I like to tell everybody thatI no longer.
I start attributing hugs likeI've been hugged five times for this
sauce versus, you know, thatkind of thing.
(12:28):
Number one rub is a tricky onebecause everyone's got their mileage,
you know, everyone's got their things.
So our barbecue rub isdefinitely a churner.
But our taco seasoning mightbe the one that wins repeats because
it's really hard to find agood gluten free taco seasoning.
(12:50):
Cool.
We're going to go ahead andtake a break here for our commercial
products down the line.
Leanne and Brian and I will beback on Barbecue Nation in just a
second.
Stay with us.
(13:11):
Hey, everybody, it's Jeff here.
I want to tell you aboutsomething really cool.
Heritage steel cookware.
I just got mine.
I do a lot of cooking and it'sgot five ply construction.
Stay cool handles.
It's titanium strengthened.
It's got all the great stuff.
Just go to HeritageSteel usand find out more.
You'll love it.
I guarantee it.
(13:42):
Welcome back to the Nation.
That's Barbecue Nation.
We've got Brian Lay with us today.
I'm saying that right?
Lee or Lay Lee.
Like Bruce Lee?
Like Bruce Lee.
Okay.
Sorry about that, bud.
That's all right.
If you're like me, you'veprobably been called worse.
I've been called worse for sure.
If you want to check us outonline, you can just go to bbqnationjt.com
(14:04):
we're on all the social mediaplatforms along with radio stations
and all that.
And you can follow us onFacebook and Twitter.
And leanne's got a million17,432 followers.
So I have four, but she's gota couple more than I do.
So anyway, you can find thisanywhere like that.
(14:25):
Do you think that we had a guyon the show last week?
Let me back up a second, Brian.
We had to go.
A fellow who I had nevertalked to before.
I don't.
I think Leanne had run acrosshim a couple times, Chris Martz from
Three Little Pigs.
And we were talking about therub and sauce business.
And so it's kind ofappropriate that you are our follow
(14:46):
up guest after that.
But he was talking aboutsauces in particular, that he felt
that we've kind of reached aceiling, an apex on people's, especially
at the retail level.
I don't remember how hephrased it, Leanne.
Like we're almost sauced outor something like that.
A soft ceiling.
(15:07):
But you're established.
You've got an establishedbrand now.
You've been out there for morethan a couple of weeks.
And so I think what Chris wasreferring to is, you know, somebody
goes out and wins acompetition somewhere and says, I've
got the whole family recipeand it's all good.
And then there's this milehigh climb to get it on a store shelf.
(15:28):
Yeah.
Not talking about onlinesales, just to get it in front of
warm bodies in a retailsetting like that.
And how difficult is that?
And his feeling was, is thatwe've got so many similar flavor
profiles.
Yeah.
Yours are not.
Yours are fantastic.
(15:48):
But you've, you've continuallyin the.
That.
What's that?
That's the 416 train.
The train.
That's the train.
But you've continued to, youknow, have a baseline and build from
there.
I just wanted to get yourthoughts on basically in the sauce
business about that.
(16:09):
So I was always told by acouple people early on in this business
that you don't talk aboutthree things.
Right.
Don't bring up politics, don'tbring up religion, don't bring up
barbecue, because you're goingto end up starting a fight with somebody
every time.
Everyone's got their own thing.
(16:31):
And with sauces, the mileage,the taste profiles and everything
like that is so differentacross everybody.
Right.
Some people like it vinegary,some people like it spicier, some
people like it.
They don't want any vinegar,they want no tang whatsoever.
And it's really difficult toplease everybody.
(16:55):
So ultimately please yourself,you know, and if you believe in your
product enough and you've comeup with something that you find that
you love, that will bubbleover to your would be fans, evangelists,
for lack of a better word.
No, there's.
(17:15):
It's.
I think it's the hardestcategory in food.
I think barbecue sauces inparticular are the hardest category
in food because everyone's gottheir specifics right.
Right.
Everyone's also comparingthemselves to the on the store shelf
barbecue stuff, the massproduced things, the established
(17:37):
brands.
Even though you're not that atall, especially as a small person,
you're not that at all.
So it's hard, it's hard tofind the middle ground on that and
figure out your lane for success.
You know, he's not wrong.
(17:58):
There is a saturation in it.
I mean, the pandemic hit andeverybody and their uncle decided
to do barbecue and all of themwent into a rub or a sauce.
The amount of sauce brandsthat were birthed during that time
is staggering, you know, andEveryone, everyone that, that has
(18:21):
gone into it had a passion forit, but they don't necessarily have
the stomach for it.
And that's the, that's thekicker part, because making a good
product is one thing.
Getting on a shelf is a wholenother ball game.
Oh, yeah, you know, you gotta,you gotta sell your product without
that tasting it.
And that's very difficult forsome people.
(18:44):
Well, and to one of yourpoints there, Brian, I think, I think
Chris was talking about like20 years ago, if you will, you went,
went to the grocery store andyou had Sweet Baby Rays and you had
the craft, three or fourflavors, you know, and maybe stubs
(19:07):
at that point, you know what I mean?
There was just a handful.
And what I did back then was Iwould buy the craft stuff or Sweet
Baby Rays or whatever, andthen I'd use that as a base and start
going home and put my ownstuff in it, you know, like that.
(19:28):
And I don't think I'm alone in that.
I think a lot of people did that.
And so it's, you know, halfthe work was done, if you will, with
that, and all the work wasdone about the accessibility of it
because you can go to aKroger, you could go to a Safeway,
you could go to a Stop and Robon the corner and somebody had a
(19:50):
bottle of brown barbecue sauce there.
I'm sorry, Stop and Rob.
That's a good one.
Yeah, that's a good one.
It's not, it's not what wecall them.
Yeah, we, we said stab and grab.
Stab and grab.
Okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I might have been in a littlemore rougher, a rougher neighborhood
than you.
Yeah, well, we had a Stop andRob, so you can keep the car running,
(20:12):
I guess.
I don't know.
But anyway, yeah, I just think people.
Are more health consciousthese days.
Right.
So your brand appeals to thegluten free, et cetera.
And that's obviously yourmarketing and everything else.
And it justifies the higherprice point too.
(20:33):
100%.
Absolutely does.
And I feel like.
Go ahead.
No, I was just going to say noseed oils.
That's another thing.
We made that transition herein the last six months because a
lot of our fan base was like,hey, we're no longer doing soybean
oil.
We can't have your stuff.
So we moved to avocado oil,you know, and that's, that's a big,
(20:55):
that's a big draw for a lot ofpeople, you know, along with, you
know, all natural.
I know that's a buzzword in,in our industry.
But whole food versus, youknow, manufactured food, that is
a, that is also a very large thing.
Well, I, I, yeah, I think so.
We got to take another break.
(21:15):
I'm gonna pick that up on theother side.
We're gonna come back in aminute here to the Nation with Leanne
and Brian and myself.
Hey, everybody, it's JT And Ihave eaten.
If you've ever looked at me,you know that.
(21:36):
But I have eaten seafood allover the world, and I can tell you
there's no place better thanhere in Oregon and our Dungeness
crab.
If you want to learn moreabout Oregon Dungeness crab, just
go to oregondungeness.org findout how to cook it, how to catch
it, where to buy it, and thesustainability of what they're doing
there in the Oregon Crab Commission.
(21:56):
Check it out.
Welcome back to the Nation.
I'm JT along with BT and Law.
How's that?
(22:18):
And this is the part of theshow where we talk.
Have Law talk about her.
No, I want her pig powder.
Yeah.
So I can relate to Brian andhis business, and it's tough out
there, but pig powder haswithstood the test of time.
It's been around, oh, gosh, 30plus years.
Still going strong.
(22:40):
Spicy rabbit's coming out, andit is sweet with a little bit of
heat.
Pig powder can be found onAmazon at the Kansas City Barbecue
store.
Currently, actually, I'm outof it online, but expecting a shipment.
I won best rub on the planet.
And, Brian, you're proud ofyour Clevelander sauce, too, for
(23:01):
winning awards.
And awards are noteworthybecause there is a lot of rubs and
sauces out there, and thereare hundreds that go into various
competitions, and they'retested not only for the flavor itself,
but on food, which I canappreciate in a lot of these contests.
So anyway, pig powder, very versatile.
(23:24):
Rub can be used on fish, pork,chicken, French fries, baked beans,
Cocoa Puffs.
Yeah, Cocoa Puffs.
There you go.
Scrambled eggs.
You know, one.
One to your point, Brian,before we went to break, I get a
lot of samples.
I, I know Leanne gets samples.
People want to send yousamples and stuff.
(23:46):
People we've had on the showhave been very kind and sent us,
you know, I gotta send yousome of my product.
Fine.
Your stuff tastes good.
It does.
And it's different.
It's really different becauseof the ingredients you use, and they
really are excellent.
(24:06):
I have one kind of sidequestion for you.
Glass versus plastic.
What are your thoughts on that?
Glass.
I'm a big proponent of glass.
And is that because it kind ofmakes it more high end?
Is it because it lasts longer?
(24:27):
There's a few, few reasons.
One shelf life.
I feel like things just tastebetter on a glass, you know, like
that's just my.
If you give me a bourbon in arocks glass versus a red Zolo cup,
I think it's going to tastebetter out of the rocks glass.
Yeah.
And you don't get beer inplastic, really.
(24:47):
Right, exactly, exactly.
Plus, and again, there's noscientific data to back this up.
I've just spitball in here.
I got a certain amount of acidin these and I don't know if that
interacts with plastic in any way.
I do know that for my crowd,glass is preferred.
You know, plus it's recyclable.
(25:08):
You know, some people makevases out of them, which is funny.
And in my.
I found people sending mepictures of clevelander bottles with
tulips in it and stuff like that.
Shipping breakage.
Yeah.
What about breakage and weight?
So breakage and weight.
Weight is a little.
(25:29):
It can get heavy.
That's true.
We found a shipper that shipsbeer bottles.
Essentially it's an insertthat we can wrap this into in a two
pack.
Right, right.
It's a 12 by 3 by 3permutation of a box.
(25:50):
Right.
And we've had very little inthe way of breakage since we moved
to those.
And truthfully, the, you know,we buy them, we buy them by the pallet
and the cost to do that ispretty negligible because of the
volume that we buy them in.
Sure.
You know, it's actuallycheaper than bubble wrap and better
(26:10):
breakage wise.
You know, back when I was.
I did some rubs and stuff andI did glass bottles and a little
hermetically sealed safetything and then the lid went on and
you know, all that.
And a couple of distributorswho shall remain nameless at that
(26:36):
time, now this was quite awhile ago, they didn't like the glass.
Got to go to plastic.
You got to go to plastic.
You got to go to plastic.
And I refused to go to plasticone because.
And I think my theory, again,no science behind this.
(26:57):
But just like you were saying,my theory is that you read a lot
of reports now that say you'vegot 27 parts per billion of plastic
particles in your food or inyour seasonings like that.
And we didn't know that stuffback then.
I just knew that glass was cleaner.
(27:17):
I actually felt that eventhough plastic would bounce if you
dropped it, the.
I thought, I actually thoughtit was safer because being around
barbecues, really high heatsources, plastic kind of go like
that.
Right.
And glass can get hot and ifyou're silly about it, you can burn
(27:39):
your fingers.
Hopefully nobody ever does that.
I just never liked the.
That was me.
I didn't like the plastic.
Now if you buy bulk stuff andyou go buy PC ones, that's going
to come in plastic, most of it.
Okay, I understand that, butthat's designed for people that understand
(28:01):
what we're doing.
That's not for the average consumer.
I mean, they can buy it ifthey want it.
But the point is PC ones arefor commercial kitchens, et cetera,
et cetera.
Right.
So that was always my theorybehind using glass.
And I caught the dickens abunch for it being too heavy.
You know, if they bought 10cases of stuff, that was £120 of
(28:27):
product there, whatever.
So anyway, we, we've kind ofsplit the uprights on that because
we do use your classic 8.4ounce plastic bottle.
We moved to this from a tinback in the day, like in the beginning,
(28:47):
we went to, from tin to bag,craft paper bag to that.
And I will say that sales wentup drastically the moment we did
this.
Sure.
Convenience and perception,you know.
Yeah, yeah.
All of a sudden, oh, you looklike you're playing with the big
(29:08):
boys, you know, or big girlsas it is, you know, that's terrible.
It's okay.
The adults in the room.
Right, yeah, yeah.
And, and that, that definitely helped.
I would, I would love, I wouldlove to go to a glass or a, an aluminum
(29:30):
deal shaker at some point.
But you know, feasibility forcost is just not there.
Right, right.
Well, this was 20 years ago orso when I was doing it, so it's exponentially
different now.
But yeah.
I just always, I was a glass guy.
(29:52):
Plus I figured if you spilledsomething on it, you know, got some
sauce on it or gravy orwhatever, you could wipe it off easier
and put it back up on the shelf.
And it didn't look like yourdog carried it off to the woodshed,
you know what I mean?
So, and we're, we're findingthat like the cost, the shipping
cost is actually fairlynegligible nowadays.
(30:14):
Yeah, it doesn't matter.
I feel like it doesn't matteras long as we're under the 25 pound
mark or the 50 pound mark forUPS, then you don't get the bump,
you know.
But from, from 5 to 25, it'sthe same volumetrics matter too.
(30:37):
But you know, the size of thebottle is Going to be the same for
the most part.
So you were saying on yourpeanut sauce you were going to a
different producer or manufacturer.
Do you use multiple manufacturers?
As it stands right now, whatwe did for the peanut sauce, we went
(30:57):
off of where we went.
I try to keep everythinglocalized to Kentucky because I'm
a big proponent of the localof the Kentucky Proud program.
They're fantastic human beingswith fantastic everything.
And I like.
I like supporting as local asI possibly can.
That being said, we could notfind a producer that was willing
(31:18):
to touch peanuts within thestate of Kentucky, so we had to go
out to Florida.
Interesting.
But they have since become anallergen regulated facility, so we're
in the process of trying tofind somebody else.
Mm.
Got a couple irons in the fireon it, but that's hard.
(31:43):
It's really difficult.
Peanuts are hard.
And I don't want to do itmyself because I ain't got time for
that.
That's a lot of work too.
I find it interesting there'sa correlation there that.
And what you're saying is correct.
It's hard.
But I think peanuts are thenumber one selling nut in the world
or something like that.
So not everybody has an allergy.
(32:06):
No, no, not at all.
But the, the way it wasexplained to me by my, my main co
Packer is that even if therewas even a mention of peanuts, the
FDA would make you put on yourlabel produced in a facility with.
I've seen that.
Yeah.
But that's.
Every single product thatwould come from that facility would
(32:28):
have to have their labelsredesigned and have that added.
So when you're.
Because it's airborne, so.
Exactly, exactly.
So you're in a, you're in ahigh, high production area.
You know, I don't want to bethe person that makes seven or eight
other brands change their,their labels.
(32:49):
Sure.
Well, they would love you.
They would love me.
Shake fisted Sky.
Yeah.
Well, you know, it is what it is.
Do you?
You know, we got a coupleminutes before we got to go to break,
Brian, but we were talkingabout sauces.
What about rubs?
As far as saturation point?
(33:11):
That's a good one.
Yeah.
There's a lot of them.
There's a lot of them.
There's a lot more of themthan there are sauces.
Yeah.
And for, for sure.
I feel like the uphill battlewith, with spice blends is.
Oh, I can do that myself.
You know, that's the, that'sthe uphill battle with it because
(33:31):
you have, you've got theweekend warrior right for lack of
better words on that.
That's just going to try stuffbecause they're getting.
They're dipping their toe intosmoking or they just really enjoy
firing up a grill and they'llchange it every time.
They don't have a tried andtrue method yet, you know, or.
Or anything of that nature.
(33:53):
Their recipes change.
So they give things a shot.
Right.
But you get, like, the realhardcore smokers and the hardcore
pit masters.
They don't buy other people.
Maybe they buy your stuff, Leanne.
They do.
They do.
They do.
(34:14):
But most of the time, you'regoing to see.
Well, I take brown sugar,black pepper, some chili powder,
and I mix it myself when I'mdoing pork, you know.
Yeah, yeah.
But I will say that rubsoutsell our sauces lately.
In the last two years, rubs have.
(34:35):
Have dominated it.
Dominated it.
Cool.
We're going to take another break.
We're going to be back withBrian Lee from BT Lee's Barbecue
Sauces Rubs.
And he's Kentuckian, and Ilove that.
We'll be right back.
At least now he's Kentuckian.
(35:01):
Hey, everybody, it's J.T.
you know, I talk about paintedhills all the time, and we always
say beef the way nature intended.
But it's more than thatbecause each bite of painted hills
will make your taste buds explode.
Put a big, bright smile onyour face, and whoever's at your
dinner table will have a big,bright smile on their face.
And you can thank me for that later.
(35:21):
Just go topaintedhillsbeef.com and find out
more.
You won't regret it.
Hey, everybody, J.T.
here.
I want to tell you aboutHammerstahl knives.
Hammerstahl combines Germansteel with beautiful and functioning
designs.
They're part of the HeritageSteel Group, which also does their
pots and pans.
So go to Heritagesteel USCheck out the Hammerstahl knives.
(35:43):
If you're really into cook, Ithink you're really gonna like them.
Welcome back to the nation.
I am here with Leanne andBrian and kind of.
(36:04):
I miss Kentucky.
Yeah, I don't regret moving here.
Yeah, I love the state.
Yeah, it was a great state andhad a lot of fun there, and the people
were very nice and for themost part.
And, yeah, there's always alittle of that everywhere you go.
But, yeah, it was.
(36:24):
And it was beautiful.
I could just never crack thehumidity code when I was there, because
I was always there either deadmiddle of winter or dead middle of
summer.
I could never seem to go inthe spring and the fall when Things
were a little more mellow, you know.
Yeah.
My wife convinced me to movedown here by telling me that we would
(36:46):
be moving from airconditioning to air conditioning
instead of having to brush offthe car, warm the car, drive 15 minutes
in snow, you know, get out ofthe snow, bundle up the whole thing.
So I'm.
I don't regret trading in 180inches of snow for eight.
(37:07):
And those eight completelyshut down the area.
Oh, yeah.
Like here in Oregon.
Whiff of snow.
Oh.
Weather alert.
You know, what kind of advicewould you give somebody who's starting
out in the sauce and spice industry?
Buy a PH reader.
(37:27):
Really?
For sauces?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Know your pHs and learn tolove the gram and not Instagram.
Gram.
Grams.
Yeah, everything in grams.
Why is the PH so important?
Shelf life, stability.
You know, you don't want toaccidentally kill somebody with a
botul item or anything like that.
(37:49):
You want it to be under yourrecommended PH meters.
And, you know, find your goodprocess authority if you're going
to do it the right way or notthe right way, the hard way, if you're
going to do it yourself, youknow, go through your better process
control school, find a processauthority, work through all the stuff,
(38:09):
make sure it's to the gram,and make sure you've got a good rapport
with your health department sothey can review your labels accordingly.
Oh, yeah, there's a.
There's a lot.
There's a lot to it.
And one of the things that,you know, I'm very proud of my brand
and how we've grown and how westarted, but I've helped quite a
(38:34):
few sauce manufacturers getoff the ground, you know, with labels
and verifications and designs.
Sure.
And that kind of stuff.
Just navigating the pitfallsof this because there's no good information.
Sometimes.
Sometimes I feel like it's thewild west, you know, of just trying
(38:55):
to find the information tobuild your brand or to.
To take your sauce to market,you know, and people just don't.
They don't know.
They don't know that you needto put this on a label or you're
going to get bounced by thefda, you know?
Well, and I. I think if you goto a distributor, we've had people
(39:16):
tell us, and I've talked aboutpeople personally off the air and
stuff, that they said theywere going to do a sauce and they
made a sauce and they went toa distributor and the distributor
looked at him and said, whatare you doing?
And.
Because where's this?
(39:36):
Where's your ingredient?
List.
Where's your, you know, allthe verifications that you were just
speaking of all this, youknow, does it have to be refrigerated?
Does it, you know, the, the,and the list, like you said, is lengthy
and I think that probablydissuades maybe some people along
(39:59):
the way that have a goodproduct potentially.
Yeah, I, I think it does.
I think it does.
I think some people look at it.
And say, yeah, no, not as easyas I thought.
Not as easy as I thought.
And then if they go to a COpacker, you know, the CO packer,
the minimums on a CO packersometimes are just mind boggling
(40:22):
to folks, you know, especially.
They're just starting, you know.
Well, what are you going to dowith 24,000 bottles of a sauce that
doesn't sell?
Right, correct.
That's got a, that's got a 18month shelf life on it.
Yeah.
You know, going to be down atthe Stop and Rob or the Grab and
Stab or whatever you call it.
(40:45):
Barbecue sauce for a buck.
I don't know.
Yeah, you try and move it asfast as possible, I guess.
Yeah.
You know, but I think that's,it's come a long ways.
Not just the sauces, but the,the blends, the rubs.
Do you go to food shows?
So we had a presence at theDallas Market center for a while.
(41:10):
We were invited to go to fancyfood this time around, but we just
could not swing the timecommitment for it at this point.
That's very, in the very nearfuture, we will be there.
You know, like there is,there's no way around that, you know,
(41:32):
not that I'm saying thatthat's a, that's a chore because
I think it's going to be superfun, you know, but I just, I look
at it and I get tired, you know.
A lot of expense too.
A lot of expense.
Yeah.
And you gotta lug all yoursauce there or ship it there.
Yeah.
So got a couple minutes lefthere, Brian.
(41:53):
Where do you see B.T.
lee's two years, five yearsfrom now?
Where do you hope to see it?
Oh, man.
So I'm hoping that within thenext year we'll grow to a thousand
locations nationwide and startreally digging into the regional
(42:14):
Mid Atlantic area for saucesand rubs as is.
Tennessee loves us, Ohio lovesus, Indiana loves us and Kentucky
loves us.
And a big portion of Texasloves us and, or knows about us.
We would like to be in, in theACE Main catalog by that time, you
(42:38):
know, and in, in five years.
I just keep going, keep going,you know.
Is it easier to deal with Acelike that than it is to deal with
like a super chain like Kroger?
So as Leanne pointed out, alot of Ace hardwares are independently
(43:00):
owned, right?
So you can go in and you canpitch to the owner directly.
I had a great conversationwith an owner named Greg down in
Tennessee recently.
And you know, you get honestanswers from them.
You know, you, you say, well,we, we would pick you up, but you
(43:23):
need a certain amount ofsocial following now, or you need
to have your name out there,or you've got to have something that's
a driving factor to get themin the store to purchase you, you
know, and since we're such aboots on the ground initiative in
a lot of ways, like I show upto towns and I do shows, I do farmer's
markets, I do demos, whereverI'm sold, You know, I try and get
(43:48):
the flavor in there in theirminds and mouths as much as possible.
And then they meet me, youknow, and I'm the guy on the bottle
and, oh, it's the guy on thebottle, you know, like, that's a,
that's a thing.
And it works out that way.
But to your point, I thinkit's easier to get into small, independently
(44:13):
own things than it is to getinto larger chains.
There's a barrier to entrythat a small brand has a hard time
achieving.
I'm lucky because my directorof art and sales, marketing director
(44:34):
is a fantastic designer andshe's done this.
And we look so professional.
Like our sell sheets aregorgeous, you know, and they have
all the pertinent informationand we've got all the assets and
all that stuff, but not everybrand has that readily available
(44:56):
to them.
And if they do, they have topay for it.
Right?
And I've got my wife onretainer and it has made so many
people mad that I dominate hertime because we did have, we have
other barbecue brands andwineries and that kind of stuff that
are vying for her attention too.
(45:17):
And I'm just like, ah, youknow, I, I can't give her up right
now.
And, and that's, and thathelps get your foot in the door.
And then you got to sell itand you got to know what your price
points are and you got to.
Know.
What the, what the temperatureof the trending is, you know, all
(45:40):
natural, gluten free, veganfriendly, vegan friendly barbecue
is on the rise.
Which I never thought I wouldever say those words, you know, in
the same sentence.
In the same sentence.
But it is a Big, big trendthat's out there.
And people care more aboutwhat's on the back of the bottle
than the front of the bottleor what's in the bottle anymore.
(46:02):
It seems like I get so manypeople that actually first thing
they do is they look at it,they're like, oh, that's you.
And then they just turn itaround and they're like.
Oh.
Soybean oil.
You know, and that's, that'sjust a, you know, even though.
So soybean oil is like 1% ofthe bottle tops.
(46:25):
You know, it was just a non starter.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Brian Lee from.
Sorry about that.
Brian Lee from BT Lee'sBarbecue and Rubs and Sauces, now
residing in Kentucky, Bowling Green.
Is that correct?
There you go.
Beautiful town.
Brian's gonna stick around forafter hours.
Got a few new questions for him.
(46:47):
Can they find John line?
Oh, yeah.
Btleads.com B T L E I G HS.com or if you, if you search for
smoked stuffed jalapenos,apparently we're number one.
Okay for that.
So that's a recipe.
We got a full, fullyoperational recipe blog on there
(47:07):
and I write articles and youcan also find all of our sauces and
all that jazz.
Excellent, Excellent, Brian.
Thank you, Leanne.
Thank you, folks.
Thank you for letting us sharesome time with you this week and
next week we'll be back.
Don't know who with, but it'salways somebody.
Anyway, for Leanne and Brian,myself, thanks for listening.
(47:28):
Remember our motto, turn it,don't burn it, go out, have some
fun, and take care, everybody.
Barbecue Nation is produced byjtsd, LLC Productions in association
with Salem Media Group.
All rights reserved.
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.