July 12, 2025 • 46 mins
The central theme of this podcast episode revolves around an insightful discourse with Chris Marks, a distinguished barbecue champion from Three Little Pigs Barbecue, who elucidates the critical distinction between being a knowledgeable pit master and a social media influencer in the realm of barbecue. We explore the nuances of authenticity in barbecue education, with Chris sharing his extensive experience that spans over two decades, during which he has won numerous accolades and taught countless classes. Our conversation delves into the evolving landscape of barbecue, scrutinizing the interplay between traditional techniques and contemporary social media trends, ultimately emphasizing the importance of substance over superficiality. Furthermore, we examine the implications of perception versus reality in the barbecue industry, particularly in relation to marketing and consumer expectations. Through this episode, we aspire to enlighten our listeners on the true essence of barbecue mastery and the value of genuine culinary education.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Three Little Pigs Barbecue
- Turner Burnett
- Heritage Steel
- Ace Hardware
- Lowe's
- Old World Spices
Mentioned in this episode:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:12):
It's time for Barbecue Nationwith jt so fire up your grill, light
the charcoal, and get yoursmoker cooking.
Now, from the Turner Burnettstudios in Portland, here's jt.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome to Barbecue Nation.
I'm JT along with my co hostand hall of Famer, Leanne Whippen,
coming to you from ourrespective Turn It, Don't Burn it
(00:34):
studios in Portland and Florida.
We'd like to thank you all forbeing with us today and allowing
us to share our time with you.
We've got a great guest today,Chris Marks from Three Little Pigs
Barbecue in the Kansas City area.
There, Chris has won more than50 national barbecue championships,
600 individual awards, JackDaniels World Championship Barbecue
(00:59):
Sauce Championship, and at theRoyal, like, eight different times.
My information may be dated,but Chris will straighten us out.
Chris, welcome.
Well, thank you so much.
Yes, welcome.
Well, let's.
Let's do this right at the top.
The reason I asked Chris onthe show is I saw a social media
(01:20):
post.
To some of us, it's the baneof our existence at times.
And he was, what, a realknowledgeable pit boss and barbecue
champion versus an influencer.
And that really caught my eye.
In fact, I went back and readit, like, three times and was laughing
the whole time.
He called me immediately.
(01:43):
I think, yeah, it went prettyviral, and I did get some kickback,
so.
Well, that's good to have that.
That's okay, and that's finewith me.
But what.
Let's talk about that just fora minute.
What possessed you to postlike that?
Well, I was actually doing aprivate class up in Chicago, not
(02:04):
Chicago, Michigan, up inDetroit area, North Detroit.
And a very senior largecompany marketing guy basically says,
you know, year ago we had ainfluencer came in here, and they
had about 250,000 followers.
And they were a barbecueperson, foodie person, and we had
(02:25):
them present to all our people.
And he said it was sodifferent watching me present because
I'm more of an educator and abarbecue aficionado than somebody
that's really pushing an agenda.
And that's pretty much the wayhe said, pushing an agenda.
They spent the first 10minutes talking about who they knew,
(02:46):
all their partners, where youneed to go see their partners, what
they represent, and all thatkind of stuff.
And they maybe spent three orfour minutes talking about what they
were brought there to do, andthat's pretty much give a class a
presentation on barbecue.
So I'd done my class, and hesays, you've obviously done this
a few times.
And I said, I've been doing itfor about 20 years and I'm pretty
(03:09):
close to 600 barbecue classes now.
And so I pretty much representbarbecue fairly well.
And he goes, I want you to sitdown with me.
And I want.
Basically he told me what thedifferences were.
He goes, I want to tell youwhat the difference between you,
a social influencer and a realbarbecue guy is.
(03:32):
And that's pretty much whereit all started from.
And this guy is very seniorwith a very Fortune 500 company,
very senior marketing guy.
And he says, you know, we laidit all out.
Took us about 20 minutes tolay it all out.
And lo and behold, that'swhere it pretty much came from.
And he says, you know, you gotperception versus reality here.
(03:57):
And he was, he was basicallytrying to help me.
He was helping me market me asis what I got.
And so he talked about theperception versus reality.
And I said, well, you know,it's sort of the new trend is to
be very social.
And I, and I go, you know, doI put social media out there?
Absolutely.
But I'm not the guy who'srunning around to all the events
(04:20):
and taking my pictures witheverybody and running around doing
selfies.
I'm not that guy.
You know, I'm an old fart.
I mean, I mean, just don't getaround it.
I'm there.
Yeah.
And I've been doing this for35 years.
And so I'm just not that guy,that high energy guy that I'm more
(04:40):
the educator, I'm more, I'mmore the guy who wants to show you
how to do it, do it right.
And you don't need to post itall over everywhere and all that
kind of stuff.
I'm just here to help.
So what, tell me this, whatwere his goals from having you versus
him there?
And did he feel as if youchecked all his boxes or was he more
(05:03):
pleased with the other angle?
He loved my angle becausethat's again, what this presentation
was supposed to be about.
It was supposed to be about barbecue.
And they basically found meover LinkedIn of all places.
And I mean, that's what hisgoal is.
His goal was barbecue, notpromoting, not promoting a social
(05:26):
agenda.
So again, it was quiteinteresting on how he basically made
me break it down.
And he says, you have adefined differentiator here and you
need to run with it.
And I said, well, I sort ofdo, but again, I'm just not that
big social guy.
So.
But what we have to do in ourmarket, being a barbecue rub and
(05:49):
sauce and all that, we sort ofhave to almost figure out a hybrid.
Whereas I do the classes and Igrind out and I do classes.
I'm, I'm heading up next weekback up to Michigan, up into the
north part to do three moreprivate classes up there.
But what we have to do is sortof figure out the hybrid method of
(06:09):
mixing the social media influencer.
Are we influencers, Leanne?
Absolutely, we're influencers,but we're not that high energy selfie,
run around, jump around and doall that kind of self influencer
where we're not the trendy,where we're going to hop on a trend
and it's not us.
(06:31):
I mean we're more the down toearth old school guys.
So that's pretty much what Ifigured out is I figured out a hybrid.
I do my social media and mysocial media is more to educate than
it is to hype.
I'm not a trendy guy, but I'mmore of an educator.
So how do you feel about thosesocial media barbecue people that
(06:55):
are out there hyping it?
Everybody, everybody has a place.
Not going to shoot you.
Wrong.
Everybody has their place.
Do they, do they help with barbecue?
Absolutely.
But again, Leanne, like Isaid, it comes down to perception
versus reality where, youknow, that perception that they're
this high end barbecue personis just not that.
(07:19):
But I mean, I'm sorry, theperception is they're high end barbecue,
they've done all this stuffand nobody questions them.
And that's again, what the guybrought up to me up there in Michigan
is that we thought this personwas a high end barbecue person.
That was their perception ofwhat they thought.
But the reality was is theywere just an influencer.
(07:41):
So Chris, do you think thebarbecue companies, I. E. The manufacturers
and stuff and you're amanufacturer with your sauces and
rubs, but I think you'veclarified exactly your approach.
But I've run into this, I knowLeanne runs into it.
And is it more that they justfeel that the social media part is
(08:07):
actually more important thanthe cook?
I mean, I know with Leanneit's the cook is the priority, but
she also.
Absolutely.
That's with me too.
Yeah, she has to do the, youknow, she has so much to do on the
company she works for andthat's fine.
But I also see like you guys,I have some followers and Facebook
(08:29):
and especially and, and all ofthat, but I see a lot of posts where
it's supposed to be a post, ifthat, if you follow what I'm saying.
Absolutely.
There's There's.
I'll do a terrible pun here,but there's no meat to it.
Okay.
There's.
It's just like, hey, I tookpineapple juice and mixed it with
(08:51):
avocado and I did this andit's wonderful.
And okay, maybe, who knows,but I might not eat it.
But you see where I'm getting at.
It's, it's just the, theposting to be putting something out
there continually versus thequality of the content.
Absolutely.
(09:12):
And that's again, post intopost, and I see a lot of that too,
is just I have to do a postevery day and there's no, what we
call meat to it.
It's just something to get click.
To get a click or somethinglike that.
And that's again, I likecontent that has some backbone to
(09:34):
it.
I'm working on something rightnow and I've been at for a couple
years during classes, peoplehave asked me about rubs and sauces.
How can I extend lives of rubsand sauces?
So I just put a little post upabout that.
You know, how do you expend,you know, not sauces, but really
rubs, you know, once I openyour bottle, how can I extend my
(09:55):
life cycle?
You know?
And yeah, they're simple todo, but a lot of people don't know
how to do it.
And that's again, putting up,putting a little bit of meat into
it.
Not just something to show mypicture because my mom said I had
a face for radio and she was right.
Why do you think I do what I do?
(10:16):
Leanne, what's your thought?
Well, this is the thing.
The influencers, they'retrying to make a living out of this.
So it's very important thatthey get the followers, they get
the companies, they get therevenue and anything to drive that
they're going to do.
So you have to respect themfrom that point of view.
(10:37):
But at the same time, as Jeff,we always talk about the squeezing
of the brisket juice out orwhatever it is to make the biggest
pork sandwich in the universe.
You know, they have to do thisto keep their followers and get more
followers.
So I kind of feel sorry forthem that they have to really grasp
at these things that to me arenot real and they aren't being true
(11:00):
authentic barbecue people inthe methods.
And it's, it's, you know, it'sall about the numbers.
But, you know, they have to dothat because that's how they make
their money or they get theirproducts, whatever.
Right.
So I don't know.
Well, no, you do know.
You Hit it right on the nose.
That's how they maintain that.
(11:20):
Now, you sent me this product,now I've got to do X amount of posts
with X amount of content andit's got to look good and it's got
to do all this kind of fun stuff.
But think about it, Leanne,what's the sustainability of that?
How am I going to be able tosustain that over five years?
That's why I feel sorry forthem, because they have to keep pounding
(11:42):
the pavement.
I mean, they just have to keepgoing, going, going.
I wouldn't want to do it, youknow, as a full time gig.
It's.
It's tough.
Yeah.
Yeah, it is tough.
Hey, we're going to take abreak here on the Nation.
We're going to be back withMs. Leanne and of course, Chris Marks
from Three Little PigsBarbecue right after this.
(12:11):
Hey, everybody, it's Jeff here.
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Heritage steel cookware.
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(12:41):
Welcome back to Barbecue Nation.
I'm JT along with Leanne Whiffin.
Today we're very fortunate tohave Chris Marks with us from Three
Little Pigs Barbecue in theKansas City area.
Chris has been featured on.
I pulled this right off yourwebsite, Chris.
So, okay.
Chris has been featured onfood channels, Taste of America,
travel channels, BarbecueBattle, lots of other local and regional
(13:05):
barbecue shows.
And, and that.
And he does, does clinics, ifyou will, and does cooks for people
and teaches them and trains them.
And I find that really coolthat you do that.
Okay, so let's get away fromthe influencers for a few minutes.
We'll probably circle back tothat because we, we love that topic
(13:27):
on this show.
What.
How did you get started?
Let people know a little bitabout you.
How did.
Was this something that wasfamily oriented or.
I was drug into it by my momand dad.
Okay.
Just literally drug into it.
My dad was a senior executive,Hallmark Cards and he retired.
And long story short, my momsaid find him something to do.
(13:49):
We got him in Oklahoma Joe,actually, Joe Davison built him a
smoker back in, I'm thinking 88.
And we started from there.
We started doing just localKansas City barbecue contests and
it just sort of grew fromthere and it sort of morphed.
He passed away in 97,actually, right before we won the
(14:11):
American Royal Invitationalfor the first time and he passed
away.
And then after that, it wasme, my dad, or me, my mom and his
brother, and we ran it out,the gambit and in competition barbecue.
And we only did like 10 to 15contests a year maximum.
And about night about 2008 ornine, we just sort of bailed out
(14:32):
of doing competition and wentahead and rolled sauces and rubs
back at about 98 and used mymom and dad's recipe and created
the rub and sauce line.
And so that's actually goingin on 22, 23 years now, the rub and
sauce line.
And sort of where it started,you just morphed.
(14:55):
I was an IT guy.
I worked it.
I'm an engineer, and Iactually quit about 20 years ago,
and now I've done straight barbecue.
But I designed smokers.
I worked with the Goodwin brand.
I designed redesigned smokers,do a lot of work with a lot of manufacturers
on design of smokers and howthey laid out, work with a lot of
(15:15):
restaurants on efficiency.
I come from an efficiencybackground and really sort of been
able to be very blessed tomaintain this barbecue hobby and
not be in it for the rest ofmy life.
Well, don't you think yourbackground there is kind of a full
circle of what we're talkingabout and what we talk about all
(15:37):
the time, the experience, theknowledge, the practicality, the
reality of, of barbecue.
Absolutely, absolutely.
And.
And everybody wants theirpiece of it, and I understand that,
and I know that because I want mine.
And, you know, it's just howwe, how we manage to get our peace
(15:57):
and maintain our peace.
It's always interesting forthe new guys, the new up and comers,
they want it now.
They want it now.
You know, it's.
It's about, you know, you gotto have your passion for it.
You've got to be persistent.
And I'm very persistent person.
But on top of that, I'm a verystrategic and tactical person, too.
(16:18):
And so I work with the rightpeople to get it in the right direction.
And that's, again, that's whenI deal with my business.
I always want to make sure I'mheaded in the right direction.
Now, do I have to modify everynow and then, head back and change
direction every now?
Absolutely.
But the important is tounderstand the persistence and passion.
(16:41):
You got to have a passion for it.
A lot of guys, you're puttingyour stuff out on the market for
three or four years, you'redoing pretty good, but it sort of
wanes.
It sort of comes off you know,and, you know, I'm going to move
other things because I'm notgoing to be a millionaire, like manufacturer
who told me he's making mystuff for me.
They told me I'm going to be a millionaire.
Well, I'm not quite seeingthat yet.
All right, so.
(17:02):
So again, you've got to bepersistent in this business, but
more importantly, you got tobe smart.
You got to be careful who youpartner with and things like that.
Oh, yeah.
I think a lot of people,because I had some experience in
this.
Leanne has experience in this.
I think a lot of people think that.
And we've had them on the show.
I may, you know, they thinkthey've made the world's best rub.
(17:23):
Nothing wrong with the rub.
It's fine.
Okay, but then how do you getit to market?
How do you keep it in the market?
How do you keep the quote,unquote edge, if you will, that people?
You know, you don't want to beon the bottom shelf, third row back
type thing.
You know, you want to be upthere, eye level and all those different
things in dealing with that.
And I think it's a hell of alot harder than people just think,
(17:46):
well, I'm going to do this.
And we've had a little successonline, and so now we're going to
go get it in every Krogerstore across the country.
Yeah, the grocery connection.
Yeah, yeah.
So no, you bring up a goodpoint, is how do you.
How do you maintain the edge?
That's the big deal.
And I've been able to maintainit for 25 years because I have good
(18:07):
partner, and that partner'sOld World Spices.
And I'm very fortunate enoughto be around since they started their
program.
I was one of the original in it.
So when I laid this businessout, I didn't want to be shipping.
I didn't want to be doing ar.
I wanted to be promotingbecause that's what I'm good at.
(18:27):
So basically what it is, is,you know, we worked out when it's
called the program at OldWorld, they basically manufacture
and they're my distributor,and I primarily do the promotion,
and that's what I like doing.
I don't have to ship.
I don't have to worry aboutbroken product.
That's not me.
(18:47):
My deal is to be out frontmaking sure it's happening, and that's
how I've been able to besuccessful in what I'm doing, not
trying to do everything.
That's where you get so boggeddown that you're having to deal with
every minute detail that youcan't focus on the big picture.
And again, I've been veryfortunate enough to be with Old World.
(19:08):
I think you were lucky though,Chris, in one aspect is, I don't
know.
I know some of the folks atOld World and I know Leanne does,
too.
But I've dealt withdistributors out here.
If you get in early as they'rebuilding these programs, you stand
a pretty good chance of success.
If you do the follow up whatyou're talking about, if you come
(19:30):
in later, sometimes there'smore restrictions.
They've learned as they'vegone along.
You've learned as you've gonealong like that.
So I think you.
I'm not taking anything awayfrom you, but I think you got lucky
getting in there at the toplevel, our initial level.
I mean, remember, partbusiness is luck.
(19:51):
Oh, yeah.
Right place, right time.
I mean, that's part of business.
Yeah.
We call it catching lightningin a bottle.
A sauce bottle.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
But, but again, they're goingto give you a start, but you've got
(20:11):
to do your own back end work.
Yeah, that is true.
We're going to take another break.
We're going to be back withChris Marks from Three Little Pigs
Barbecue right after this withLeanne and myself.
Stay with us.
(20:31):
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(20:54):
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Check it out.
Welcome back to Barbecue Nation.
Thank you for being with us today.
We appreciate you inviting usinto your world.
Today, Leanne and I aretalking with Chris Marks from Three
(21:17):
Little Pigs.
By the way, you can findLeanne's in my stuff.
All over social media is whatwe were talking about at the top
of the show.
And you can find Chris's stuffout there, too.
And it's easy to contact us ifyou ever have a question or a comment
or a suggestion through allthe platforms.
And we have emails out There,Barbecue Nation, JT.com Anyway, talking
(21:40):
with Chris Marks here, youtalk about the, the sauces and, and
your rubs and stuff.
How do you tie those in toyour Your, your clinics, you're teaching
like that.
Because a lot of people I'veseen, they come and they, they'll
(22:01):
do a class.
But the whole time during theclass, what we were talking about
at the top of the show, Chris,you've got an influencer and you
should be using this spatulaor my rub here on this and that.
How do you tie those in kindof semi, subtly and then make it
make sense to the, the peopleyou're teaching?
(22:21):
Well, first of all, we talkabout the story of why I'm there.
Very important part.
And you know, I'm a legacy andthis is part of what I do, the rubs
and sauces and that's whatwe'll use for the class.
And again, it is what it is.
I'm not going to go to a storeor and do a class and use somebody
else's stuff.
Right?
(22:41):
Because again, that's just, Imean it defeats my whole cause.
And I'm very subtle about it.
I'm not.
I've learned through my yearsof sell, my 35 years of being on,
on sales, on it.
I'm a soft sell guy.
I'm not that hardcore.
I'm going to jam it in your throat.
You only use my stuff when I talk.
When I teach a class, I teacha class and I tell them, these classes
(23:04):
are about you guys.
Here's how I do it.
My deal is for you to be greatat what you do, but use my rubs.
But if you don't like, it'snot a big deal, modify them the way
you and your family like to do it.
And again, I'm a soft sell.
I'm not a hard sell, neverhave been.
And again, that's why peopleask me for.
I mean, I've been doingclasses up in Chicago for 20 years
(23:26):
now and they asked me to comeback three times a year, four times
a year up in Chicago.
Just keep coming back to theirstores because I show them the value
of how, first of all, sell my,buy my stuff.
But I show them the value, howthat retailer can actually sell more
stuff.
Because again, I come from asales background.
(23:48):
It's just not about my rubsand sauces, is about how, how do
I sell to that store?
How does that sell.
Store sell more things.
You know, I don't care whatyou cook on.
I sell green eggs, rectangs,Traegers, I don't care.
We're going to sell all thosebecause I can cook on all of them.
It's what makes, what makes your.
(24:08):
I didn't mean to Interruptyou, but what makes your actual class,
aside from the mechanics ofthe whatever cooker they're using,
but what makes your class different?
No, that's a great question.
What makes my class differentfrom the other guys is I teach absolute
basics.
I start one on one, and wetalk about charcoals, we talk about
(24:30):
woods, we talk about thescience of why we do what we do.
So many of these people havebeen on YouTube university, and they've
never had any of the basics toeven start with.
And that's what I'm running into.
And I run into it.
And that's again, part ofeverybody on social media not understanding
the basics of smoke, fire and heat.
(24:52):
Yeah.
And so we start there.
But the more important thingis this is I make it them.
I said, I'm going to wrap thisaround you guys, I'm going to go
through that class, you'regoing to tell me your experience,
and I.
And I'm going to wrap itaround them.
And again, I don't care whatyou cook on.
And so many people come in there.
Well, you know, I cook on thisand this is that.
(25:13):
Okay.
Absolutely.
I'm going to show you thebasics of how to cook on anything.
I don't care if it's a pelletcooker, I don't care if it's in the
ground.
I don't care.
We're going to show you how tobe basic, how to understand the science,
and then you make the decisionon what you want to cook on.
You cover all of them, likeribs and chicken and brisket and
(25:35):
whatever or what.
I, I do a 101 and a 102.
A 101 is basically ribs andchicken and the basics of the charcoals
in the woods.
What we're talking about therea lot of that science.
And then I do a 102, which isgoing to be the briskets and the
butts, because they cookreally good together.
Because I want them to smellthem, I want them to taste them,
(25:57):
I want them to have that whole experience.
And that's what a lot of themmiss off social media is that experience
of the smell, the taste, andthe interaction with the actual instructor.
Sure.
Leanne brought this up earlierin the show.
One of my pet peeves ispeople, people on the YouTube University,
(26:17):
as you call it, or Twitter X,always squeezing the snot out of
the juices in the brisket.
That, that makes me crazy.
And Leanne already knows I'mcrazy, so that's fine.
But I, I don't, I don'thonestly see the Value in that.
I mean, it's.
You know, you can point to itand say, man, it looks really juicy,
(26:39):
and then move on.
But you don't have to, like,wring it out like you're putting
it through an old hand dryerfrom the 1920s.
It's.
It's that and the jiggle.
The brisket jiggle.
Yeah, you know, you see thatall the time.
And, you know, you see itwhere they hold the slice up and,
oh, look at my slice.
You know, and again, it's sort of.
(27:00):
I don't know if it's a rightnow to, you know, look at that brisket.
And guaranteed, every brisketyou would cut like that, I could
squeeze the hell out of it,too, and get juice out of it.
So, yeah, no matter how long,it's good.
So.
But again, remember, we talkabout perception, reality.
A lot of that comes down to.
That is, you know, so, Chris,with your business.
(27:23):
So you sell sauces and rubs,you teach classes for your revenue
stream.
I mean, what's the mostlucrative for you?
Rubs and sauces?
I'm finding that the marketfor rubs is higher than sauces, because
I feel like it is.
And in the past, it was great,great point.
So.
And why do you think a lot ofthat's happening for the sauces?
(27:44):
First of all, we've been.
I'm very.
I work with a guy who's asenior, actually, CEO of BMC Volume
Merchandise.
And we always talk about just that.
We talk about strategies andwe talk about the difference between
sauces and rubs and all kindsof things, because he's not that
familiar with rubs, because hecomes from grocery background.
(28:05):
Remember back in the 50s and60s when we had Bullseye, we had
Masterpiece, and our sauceswere 89 cents and 99 cents.
And all that perception thatwe talk about, sauces were brought
in on the grocery with theperception of being cheap.
99 cents.
I mean, even today, we canstill find.
We call them 10 for 10.
So you can still buy 10 for 99 cents.
(28:27):
Right?
What's happening is nowbecause of.
Basically we're specialty, sowe're specialty or premium.
And they've actually have anew category called ultra premium
now.
So that's going to be your 899to 999 to 1099 sauces that you see
at grocery, basically.
Leanne, have we.
What if we hit the sauce, whatwe call walkaways, to where people
(28:50):
are going to look at that at799, 699 and walk away?
Because still on that Shelf,you see them loaded with sweet baby
rays for 1.99.
So that our sauces get intothat price point because the perceptions
that they had back in the 60s,70s and 90s of that cheap condiment.
Are we getting to the pointwhere they see that?
And it's just walk away.
(29:11):
I'm just.
And that's what he pretty muchtold me.
He says you're going to get toa price point on sauces and we're
just talking sauces thatyou're going to actually walk away
from.
So what I did is I look at thebusiness and I actually eliminated
three free sauces and I wentdown to my three, three top selling
sauces and I brought out fournew rubs.
(29:34):
So right there tells you, andwe talked about if you go to a grocery
store, you don't see rubs inthe barbecue lane.
You just don't.
And then that's the grocerystores miss that they should have
a whole barbecue section whereeverything's bound together.
Some are doing it, some arestarting to do it, but most have
separate, just all over the place.
(29:57):
If you look for a barbecue rub.
Right.
But that barbecue rub hasnever really been what we call price
pointed out to, especiallythe, especially the 12 dot sizes
have really never been pricepointed to the grocery public.
So there's no perception thereon where that price point should
be.
So again, I agree with you ahundred percent.
(30:20):
I starting to really weigh.
As the sauces are getting moretowards the walkaway and even in
specialty they're up tothe799,899,999 price points and they're
going to be walkaways.
Do you, Chris, do you thinkthat we're reaching a saturation
point?
I think we, I think we hitsaturation a couple years ago.
(30:42):
Do you?
I do too.
Yeah.
And what I'm seeing with thesaturation point is now we have micro
manufacturer, micro batch guys.
They're basically everybodywho took a fourth place at a barbecue
contest now is having theirrubs and things made.
And what they're doing withthat is that manufacturers really
(31:02):
just not tell them what thereal, real world's all about.
They're just making a bunch ofstuff and thinking that they're going
to be able to schlep it overevery store, running it around and,
and just, you know, I'm goingto give it to your store here.
I'm going to take your store here.
I'm going to take this.
And again, that's, that's nota real model that you could ever
make.
Any money on, you know, I hada, I had a friend a few years ago,
(31:26):
an acquaintance really, and heand his wife came up with some.
They were okay barbecue sauces.
They weren't world beaters,but they weren't bad either.
And he would give me an updateevery once in a while, every month
or so, and he'd say, yeah,this, this store.
And they wanted eight caseshere and this.
(31:46):
And so when I drilled down,having had a bit of experience with
this, I would drill down on that.
And finally I said, you sureyou're just not trading dollars or
losing money all the time?
Because they're wanting, youknow, they're wanting four cases
of your top two sauces for 15stores before they'll even talk to
you.
And then they want you to buya quarterly ad and they're insert.
(32:09):
And you know all the stuff I'm.
Talking about, oh, you'regoing in the right direction.
And, you know, you starttalking grocery, you start talking
about slotting.
Yeah.
You start talking about earlybuys, you start talking about what
we call load end.
Load end.
And it gets, you really haveto have a really good AR system if
(32:29):
you're really working groceryto figure out if you're making money.
Right.
Well, they're out of thebusiness now, so, yeah, you know,
it's kind of self fulfilling.
Props.
Prophecy.
We're going to take a breakand come back and wrap up this part
of the show with Chris Marksand Ms. Whippen.
Stay with us.
You're listening to Barbecue Nation.
(32:57):
Hey, everybody, it's jt.
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(33:20):
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Foreign.
Welcome back to the nation.
I'm JT along with all starhall of Famer Leanne Whippen.
And today we're fortunate tobe talking with Chris Martz from
(34:02):
Three Little Pigs Barbecue inKansas City.
If you were going to give a.
An overall observation, youwere a competitor, but you really
don't do that.
You're a instructor and teacher.
You're the professor of greatthings in all barbecue aspects and
(34:22):
you work in the retail side.
What would your overall viewof barbecue be right now?
Oh, yeah, another great question.
I wish you would told me thata couple of days ago so I can think
about it overall right now, Ithink we're in a transition period
(34:43):
and I that transition periods,basically we're going from.
How are we going?
The reality.
Remember we talked about thereality versus the perception.
How, how long is theperception going to be there?
Until everybody starts tobalance out, basically.
(35:05):
Who's going to come out winning?
Is it going to be more thesocial media side or is it going
to be more towards the traditionalist?
And I think we're sort of inthat transition period right now.
And you know, do I know whereit's going to go?
No, I don't.
You know, I, you know, I'mgoing to be able to play both directions
(35:28):
because I sort of have ahybrid model set up.
Right.
But there's a lot of guys whoreally are into this and they focus
all on one piece.
And you know, I do get a lotof crap because I go out and do a
lot of barbecue classes.
I do a lot of them.
And a lot of the people that Iwork with now have agents and they're
(35:49):
going around basically callingaround and setting stuff up for them.
I, I don't need one.
I mean, I, they call me now, right?
And so that's on my grind, asI call it.
That's my grind.
I'm going to continue to do my grind.
I have about 25 to 30 loyal.
I call them ambassadors, notinfluencers, because I have trained
(36:14):
them, I have vetted thembecause, you know, one influencer,
if you don't vet them, if theygo, they say something wrong, basically.
Guess what, guys, that's youtoo, right?
So I have about 20, and I'veworked with a lot of these guys for
20 some years, 25 years, veryloyal to me and help me spread the
(36:35):
word about three little pigsall across the country.
And the other thing is I focuson different demographics than a
lot of the other guys.
I will, I will hazard a guess here.
My prognostication, I think, Ithink that people will become tired
(37:01):
of.
Because we're already tired ofbeing constantly bombarded every
day.
Great, great point.
You know, images and this andnews Flashes on your phone and all
that.
And I think it'll sort itself out.
The, the influencers, they'renot going to go away, but I think
that people are going to startlooking then say, realizing that
(37:22):
my time is valuable to me andmy family or my work, whatever it
is.
And I don't have time to sitthrough 27 five minute videos every
night that don't tell me jack.
You know, they're going towant to get to the heart of the matter
with guys like you.
Leanne, what do you thinkabout that?
I do.
(37:43):
It's.
I think right now it's really unpredictable.
I almost feel like barbecue, Ihate to use this word, but has kind
of flatlined.
I don't know why I feel thatway, but I just feel like it hit
its peak, especially duringCOVID and everyone being home and
it's just kind of notflatlined, but kind of settled down.
(38:04):
And Chris, kind of like youwere saying, you don't know where
it's going.
And I don't know either.
It'll always be around.
Sure.
You know, I don't know.
It's.
It's.
I feel like we're in a reallyweird space right now.
I'm right with you.
I'm right with you.
I mean, I just, it's just,it's weird.
(38:25):
It is a weird space that just,you know.
And where's it going to go?
Because, you know, we're beingalso, we're being pushed by retailers
to have 150, 200,000 followers.
Right.
And, you know, and so a lot ofthese guys, these other influencer
type, the way they go intothat retailer is, well, you know,
(38:49):
they do all they do.
They have all these worldchampionships and all this and do
all this kind of cool stuff,but guess What?
I got 250,000 followers.
That's right.
They want the followers.
Yeah.
And they don't understand thatthose followers, most of them were
bought.
Yeah.
So.
So, well, the, the age and Ideal with a lot of marketing stuff
with these shows and stuff wedo just like you guys do.
(39:10):
But you can say you have250,000 followers, but how many are
actually looking at everythingyou drop out there?
Absolutely.
You know, 10%, 5%, whatever.
You know, that 250,000 numberthat we've been kicking around is
just a number as far as I'm concerned.
(39:32):
It's again, back to reality.
Chris, you said you go for adifferent demographic.
I kind of want to back up.
What did you mean by that?
Well, so let's call demographic.
So let's look at the United States.
Leanne, where do, and I knowyou're where do 80% of the barbecuers
(39:54):
focus?
What do you mean?
Anybody, Anybody who's comingout with a new rub or a new, where
are they going to go?
Try to focus.
Texas, you know, everybody,Everybody in.
If you see new rubs comingout, they're all coming to Texas.
I'm going to cook Texas stuff,you know, blah, blah, blah.
(40:16):
Yeah, Texas is at its highestpoint right now.
I feel like, like Kansas Citywas, but Texas has kind of jumped
up.
I don't think Kansas City waseven ever close to Texas.
I, I, I kind of do.
I kind of do.
But, you know, long time ago.
But you're right.
Yeah, I agree.
Long time right.
It is Texas.
Because if you're going to doa rub line, you got to have a Texas
(40:38):
rub.
Absolutely correct.
You got, you got to have asalt, pepper, garlic.
You got to have something.
And so I'm like, you know,I'll let everybody have Texas.
And I do pretty well in Texas.
I'm not, I'm not gonna, I'mgonna focus on how many people are
in Chicago, but 9 million.
(40:59):
I do majority of my work in Chicago.
Detroit, Indianapolis,Cincinnati, Cleveland, New Jersey.
How many millions of people up there.
What true barbecue deserts are they?
Yeah, exactly.
(41:21):
Exactly.
And everybody, you know, hell,I, I can see Kansas City from my
house.
You can have Kansas City, too,because again, demographics and then
you know all about Chicago.
What does Chicago got a lotof, A lot of money.
And they have no problem spending.
(41:43):
Detroit, same way.
Cleveland, believe it or not,Cleveland, of all places, the same
way.
And different demographics.
Now, are they harder to get to?
For me, absolutely.
Is it sort of a pain in thebutt because I drive, I don't fly.
I drive.
(42:03):
I take all my stuff with meand I drive.
But I'm a driver.
I can drive forever.
I just drove back from Utahand I mean, it's, I'm a driver.
And so when me and my wife dothis, and I tie my wife into this
too, because she's a salesmanand doesn't know it, she's probably
my best.
And she's an ex teacher, soshe's all about taking care of the
(42:25):
people and all that kind offun stuff.
So the female side of it, too,I cover that with my why.
And so that's what I've seen.
And that's why theseorganizations, these retailers up
east say I need a year in advance.
I'm signing up classes for.
But again, I'm focusing moreon Demographics, looking at basically
(42:49):
expendable income and numberof people.
Chris, where can people find your.
Your products?
I mean, online.
Where's.
Websites give us that.
So, so another point.
I don't sell online becausemost of the time I'm.
I'm out of town most of thetime, and I sell online.
(43:10):
I have a couple, really on my website.
You'll see them.
I got four guys.
One out of Chicago, one out ofIndy, and actually two out of Chicagoland.
My biggest is Ace Hardware.
Okay.
I've been in Ace where foralmost from day one, so a long time
in Ace Hardware.
(43:32):
Lowe's.
Lowe's Hardware.
I've been in there quite awhile now.
They don't carry every sku,but they carry enough shields.
Are you familiar with shields?
I know Leanne is.
Yep.
Oh, yeah.
Shields is very good.
What about Academy?
(43:53):
We are not in Academy.
Okay.
I think they're talking to Academy.
I'm going to give you a plugbecause this is true.
True story.
Back in the wood chicks daysin competition, in the early days,
I sought out your cherry rub.
And to this day, I still loveyour cherry rub.
(44:15):
To me, the only rub thatactually gives you a subtle, authentic
cherry flavor without tasting synthetic.
And I love that rub.
It is one of my favorites.
So a little history about thecherry rub.
That was my mom's rub.
Oh, oh, y.
And we made more fun of that.
And I mean, it's a sissy anime.
(44:36):
You know, my dad was made thechampionship stuff and I made a bunch
of them too, but my mom madethe cherry rub.
And what do you think's thebest seller?
The cherry Rubber?
The cherry.
Yeah.
Yes.
It really dynamite.
It is.
It is fantastic.
We used to make fun of her.
And he called it the rub.
And.
And it is.
(44:56):
It's a great.
The rub.
And my parents had very, very good.
No, they formerly trainedculinary skills, but very good culinary
skills.
Sure.
And especially my dad, and hejust could smell it and taste it,
and if it worked together, he knew.
(45:17):
And my mom was just a good.
Just a good cook.
There you go, Chris.
We got to get out of here.
For the regular show, ChrisMarks, everybody from Three Little
Pigs Barbecue.
Go to their website, read somemore of his story and see their products.
And I got to get my hands on a.
On a jug of that cherry rubhere shortly.
But anyway, if you're going tostick around for after hours, that'll
(45:39):
be coming up next on the podsand stuff.
Until then, Chris, thank you.
We appreciate it.
And Leanne, I'll see you intwo minutes here, so.
All right.
Thank you, everybody, forlistening and inviting us into your
home.
Remember our motto here.
Turn it, don't burn it, Goout, be kind.
Take care.
Barbecue Nation is produced byjtsd, LLC Productions in association
(46:01):
with Salem Media Group.
All rights reserved.
It's time for Barbecue Nationwith jt so fire up your grill, light
the charcoal, and get yoursmoker cooking.
Now, from the Turner Burnettstudios in Portland, here's jt.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome to Barbecue Nation.
I'm JT along with my co hostand hall of Famer, Leanne Whippen,
coming to you from ourrespective Turn It, Don't Burn it
(00:34):
studios in Portland and Florida.
We'd like to thank you all forbeing with us today and allowing
us to share our time with you.
We've got a great guest today,Chris Marks from Three Little Pigs
Barbecue in the Kansas City area.
There, Chris has won more than50 national barbecue championships,
600 individual awards, JackDaniels World Championship Barbecue
(00:59):
Sauce Championship, and at theRoyal, like, eight different times.
My information may be dated,but Chris will straighten us out.
Chris, welcome.
Well, thank you so much.
Yes, welcome.
Well, let's.
Let's do this right at the top.
The reason I asked Chris onthe show is I saw a social media
(01:20):
post.
To some of us, it's the baneof our existence at times.
And he was, what, a realknowledgeable pit boss and barbecue
champion versus an influencer.
And that really caught my eye.
In fact, I went back and readit, like, three times and was laughing
the whole time.
He called me immediately.
(01:43):
I think, yeah, it went prettyviral, and I did get some kickback,
so.
Well, that's good to have that.
That's okay, and that's finewith me.
But what.
Let's talk about that just fora minute.
What possessed you to postlike that?
Well, I was actually doing aprivate class up in Chicago, not
(02:04):
Chicago, Michigan, up inDetroit area, North Detroit.
And a very senior largecompany marketing guy basically says,
you know, year ago we had ainfluencer came in here, and they
had about 250,000 followers.
And they were a barbecueperson, foodie person, and we had
(02:25):
them present to all our people.
And he said it was sodifferent watching me present because
I'm more of an educator and abarbecue aficionado than somebody
that's really pushing an agenda.
And that's pretty much the wayhe said, pushing an agenda.
They spent the first 10minutes talking about who they knew,
(02:46):
all their partners, where youneed to go see their partners, what
they represent, and all thatkind of stuff.
And they maybe spent three orfour minutes talking about what they
were brought there to do, andthat's pretty much give a class a
presentation on barbecue.
So I'd done my class, and hesays, you've obviously done this
a few times.
And I said, I've been doing itfor about 20 years and I'm pretty
(03:09):
close to 600 barbecue classes now.
And so I pretty much representbarbecue fairly well.
And he goes, I want you to sitdown with me.
And I want.
Basically he told me what thedifferences were.
He goes, I want to tell youwhat the difference between you,
a social influencer and a realbarbecue guy is.
(03:32):
And that's pretty much whereit all started from.
And this guy is very seniorwith a very Fortune 500 company,
very senior marketing guy.
And he says, you know, we laidit all out.
Took us about 20 minutes tolay it all out.
And lo and behold, that'swhere it pretty much came from.
And he says, you know, you gotperception versus reality here.
(03:57):
And he was, he was basicallytrying to help me.
He was helping me market me asis what I got.
And so he talked about theperception versus reality.
And I said, well, you know,it's sort of the new trend is to
be very social.
And I, and I go, you know, doI put social media out there?
Absolutely.
But I'm not the guy who'srunning around to all the events
(04:20):
and taking my pictures witheverybody and running around doing
selfies.
I'm not that guy.
You know, I'm an old fart.
I mean, I mean, just don't getaround it.
I'm there.
Yeah.
And I've been doing this for35 years.
And so I'm just not that guy,that high energy guy that I'm more
(04:40):
the educator, I'm more, I'mmore the guy who wants to show you
how to do it, do it right.
And you don't need to post itall over everywhere and all that
kind of stuff.
I'm just here to help.
So what, tell me this, whatwere his goals from having you versus
him there?
And did he feel as if youchecked all his boxes or was he more
(05:03):
pleased with the other angle?
He loved my angle becausethat's again, what this presentation
was supposed to be about.
It was supposed to be about barbecue.
And they basically found meover LinkedIn of all places.
And I mean, that's what hisgoal is.
His goal was barbecue, notpromoting, not promoting a social
(05:26):
agenda.
So again, it was quiteinteresting on how he basically made
me break it down.
And he says, you have adefined differentiator here and you
need to run with it.
And I said, well, I sort ofdo, but again, I'm just not that
big social guy.
So.
But what we have to do in ourmarket, being a barbecue rub and
(05:49):
sauce and all that, we sort ofhave to almost figure out a hybrid.
Whereas I do the classes and Igrind out and I do classes.
I'm, I'm heading up next weekback up to Michigan, up into the
north part to do three moreprivate classes up there.
But what we have to do is sortof figure out the hybrid method of
(06:09):
mixing the social media influencer.
Are we influencers, Leanne?
Absolutely, we're influencers,but we're not that high energy selfie,
run around, jump around and doall that kind of self influencer
where we're not the trendy,where we're going to hop on a trend
and it's not us.
(06:31):
I mean we're more the down toearth old school guys.
So that's pretty much what Ifigured out is I figured out a hybrid.
I do my social media and mysocial media is more to educate than
it is to hype.
I'm not a trendy guy, but I'mmore of an educator.
So how do you feel about thosesocial media barbecue people that
(06:55):
are out there hyping it?
Everybody, everybody has a place.
Not going to shoot you.
Wrong.
Everybody has their place.
Do they, do they help with barbecue?
Absolutely.
But again, Leanne, like Isaid, it comes down to perception
versus reality where, youknow, that perception that they're
this high end barbecue personis just not that.
(07:19):
But I mean, I'm sorry, theperception is they're high end barbecue,
they've done all this stuffand nobody questions them.
And that's again, what the guybrought up to me up there in Michigan
is that we thought this personwas a high end barbecue person.
That was their perception ofwhat they thought.
But the reality was is theywere just an influencer.
(07:41):
So Chris, do you think thebarbecue companies, I. E. The manufacturers
and stuff and you're amanufacturer with your sauces and
rubs, but I think you'veclarified exactly your approach.
But I've run into this, I knowLeanne runs into it.
And is it more that they justfeel that the social media part is
(08:07):
actually more important thanthe cook?
I mean, I know with Leanneit's the cook is the priority, but
she also.
Absolutely.
That's with me too.
Yeah, she has to do the, youknow, she has so much to do on the
company she works for andthat's fine.
But I also see like you guys,I have some followers and Facebook
(08:29):
and especially and, and all ofthat, but I see a lot of posts where
it's supposed to be a post, ifthat, if you follow what I'm saying.
Absolutely.
There's There's.
I'll do a terrible pun here,but there's no meat to it.
Okay.
There's.
It's just like, hey, I tookpineapple juice and mixed it with
(08:51):
avocado and I did this andit's wonderful.
And okay, maybe, who knows,but I might not eat it.
But you see where I'm getting at.
It's, it's just the, theposting to be putting something out
there continually versus thequality of the content.
Absolutely.
(09:12):
And that's again, post intopost, and I see a lot of that too,
is just I have to do a postevery day and there's no, what we
call meat to it.
It's just something to get click.
To get a click or somethinglike that.
And that's again, I likecontent that has some backbone to
(09:34):
it.
I'm working on something rightnow and I've been at for a couple
years during classes, peoplehave asked me about rubs and sauces.
How can I extend lives of rubsand sauces?
So I just put a little post upabout that.
You know, how do you expend,you know, not sauces, but really
rubs, you know, once I openyour bottle, how can I extend my
(09:55):
life cycle?
You know?
And yeah, they're simple todo, but a lot of people don't know
how to do it.
And that's again, putting up,putting a little bit of meat into
it.
Not just something to show mypicture because my mom said I had
a face for radio and she was right.
Why do you think I do what I do?
(10:16):
Leanne, what's your thought?
Well, this is the thing.
The influencers, they'retrying to make a living out of this.
So it's very important thatthey get the followers, they get
the companies, they get therevenue and anything to drive that
they're going to do.
So you have to respect themfrom that point of view.
(10:37):
But at the same time, as Jeff,we always talk about the squeezing
of the brisket juice out orwhatever it is to make the biggest
pork sandwich in the universe.
You know, they have to do thisto keep their followers and get more
followers.
So I kind of feel sorry forthem that they have to really grasp
at these things that to me arenot real and they aren't being true
(11:00):
authentic barbecue people inthe methods.
And it's, it's, you know, it'sall about the numbers.
But, you know, they have to dothat because that's how they make
their money or they get theirproducts, whatever.
Right.
So I don't know.
Well, no, you do know.
You Hit it right on the nose.
That's how they maintain that.
(11:20):
Now, you sent me this product,now I've got to do X amount of posts
with X amount of content andit's got to look good and it's got
to do all this kind of fun stuff.
But think about it, Leanne,what's the sustainability of that?
How am I going to be able tosustain that over five years?
That's why I feel sorry forthem, because they have to keep pounding
(11:42):
the pavement.
I mean, they just have to keepgoing, going, going.
I wouldn't want to do it, youknow, as a full time gig.
It's.
It's tough.
Yeah.
Yeah, it is tough.
Hey, we're going to take abreak here on the Nation.
We're going to be back withMs. Leanne and of course, Chris Marks
from Three Little PigsBarbecue right after this.
(12:11):
Hey, everybody, it's Jeff here.
I want to tell you aboutsomething really cool.
Heritage steel cookware.
I just got mine.
I do a lot of cooking and it'sgot five ply construction.
Stay cool handles.
It's titanium strengthened.
It's got all the great stuff.
Just go to HeritageSteel usand find out more.
You'll love it, I guarantee it.
(12:41):
Welcome back to Barbecue Nation.
I'm JT along with Leanne Whiffin.
Today we're very fortunate tohave Chris Marks with us from Three
Little Pigs Barbecue in theKansas City area.
Chris has been featured on.
I pulled this right off yourwebsite, Chris.
So, okay.
Chris has been featured onfood channels, Taste of America,
travel channels, BarbecueBattle, lots of other local and regional
(13:05):
barbecue shows.
And, and that.
And he does, does clinics, ifyou will, and does cooks for people
and teaches them and trains them.
And I find that really coolthat you do that.
Okay, so let's get away fromthe influencers for a few minutes.
We'll probably circle back tothat because we, we love that topic
(13:27):
on this show.
What.
How did you get started?
Let people know a little bitabout you.
How did.
Was this something that wasfamily oriented or.
I was drug into it by my momand dad.
Okay.
Just literally drug into it.
My dad was a senior executive,Hallmark Cards and he retired.
And long story short, my momsaid find him something to do.
(13:49):
We got him in Oklahoma Joe,actually, Joe Davison built him a
smoker back in, I'm thinking 88.
And we started from there.
We started doing just localKansas City barbecue contests and
it just sort of grew fromthere and it sort of morphed.
He passed away in 97,actually, right before we won the
(14:11):
American Royal Invitationalfor the first time and he passed
away.
And then after that, it wasme, my dad, or me, my mom and his
brother, and we ran it out,the gambit and in competition barbecue.
And we only did like 10 to 15contests a year maximum.
And about night about 2008 ornine, we just sort of bailed out
(14:32):
of doing competition and wentahead and rolled sauces and rubs
back at about 98 and used mymom and dad's recipe and created
the rub and sauce line.
And so that's actually goingin on 22, 23 years now, the rub and
sauce line.
And sort of where it started,you just morphed.
(14:55):
I was an IT guy.
I worked it.
I'm an engineer, and Iactually quit about 20 years ago,
and now I've done straight barbecue.
But I designed smokers.
I worked with the Goodwin brand.
I designed redesigned smokers,do a lot of work with a lot of manufacturers
on design of smokers and howthey laid out, work with a lot of
(15:15):
restaurants on efficiency.
I come from an efficiencybackground and really sort of been
able to be very blessed tomaintain this barbecue hobby and
not be in it for the rest ofmy life.
Well, don't you think yourbackground there is kind of a full
circle of what we're talkingabout and what we talk about all
(15:37):
the time, the experience, theknowledge, the practicality, the
reality of, of barbecue.
Absolutely, absolutely.
And.
And everybody wants theirpiece of it, and I understand that,
and I know that because I want mine.
And, you know, it's just howwe, how we manage to get our peace
(15:57):
and maintain our peace.
It's always interesting forthe new guys, the new up and comers,
they want it now.
They want it now.
You know, it's.
It's about, you know, you gotto have your passion for it.
You've got to be persistent.
And I'm very persistent person.
But on top of that, I'm a verystrategic and tactical person, too.
(16:18):
And so I work with the rightpeople to get it in the right direction.
And that's, again, that's whenI deal with my business.
I always want to make sure I'mheaded in the right direction.
Now, do I have to modify everynow and then, head back and change
direction every now?
Absolutely.
But the important is tounderstand the persistence and passion.
(16:41):
You got to have a passion for it.
A lot of guys, you're puttingyour stuff out on the market for
three or four years, you'redoing pretty good, but it sort of
wanes.
It sort of comes off you know,and, you know, I'm going to move
other things because I'm notgoing to be a millionaire, like manufacturer
who told me he's making mystuff for me.
They told me I'm going to be a millionaire.
Well, I'm not quite seeingthat yet.
All right, so.
(17:02):
So again, you've got to bepersistent in this business, but
more importantly, you got tobe smart.
You got to be careful who youpartner with and things like that.
Oh, yeah.
I think a lot of people,because I had some experience in
this.
Leanne has experience in this.
I think a lot of people think that.
And we've had them on the show.
I may, you know, they thinkthey've made the world's best rub.
(17:23):
Nothing wrong with the rub.
It's fine.
Okay, but then how do you getit to market?
How do you keep it in the market?
How do you keep the quote,unquote edge, if you will, that people?
You know, you don't want to beon the bottom shelf, third row back
type thing.
You know, you want to be upthere, eye level and all those different
things in dealing with that.
And I think it's a hell of alot harder than people just think,
(17:46):
well, I'm going to do this.
And we've had a little successonline, and so now we're going to
go get it in every Krogerstore across the country.
Yeah, the grocery connection.
Yeah, yeah.
So no, you bring up a goodpoint, is how do you.
How do you maintain the edge?
That's the big deal.
And I've been able to maintainit for 25 years because I have good
(18:07):
partner, and that partner'sOld World Spices.
And I'm very fortunate enoughto be around since they started their
program.
I was one of the original in it.
So when I laid this businessout, I didn't want to be shipping.
I didn't want to be doing ar.
I wanted to be promotingbecause that's what I'm good at.
(18:27):
So basically what it is, is,you know, we worked out when it's
called the program at OldWorld, they basically manufacture
and they're my distributor,and I primarily do the promotion,
and that's what I like doing.
I don't have to ship.
I don't have to worry aboutbroken product.
That's not me.
(18:47):
My deal is to be out frontmaking sure it's happening, and that's
how I've been able to besuccessful in what I'm doing, not
trying to do everything.
That's where you get so boggeddown that you're having to deal with
every minute detail that youcan't focus on the big picture.
And again, I've been veryfortunate enough to be with Old World.
(19:08):
I think you were lucky though,Chris, in one aspect is, I don't
know.
I know some of the folks atOld World and I know Leanne does,
too.
But I've dealt withdistributors out here.
If you get in early as they'rebuilding these programs, you stand
a pretty good chance of success.
If you do the follow up whatyou're talking about, if you come
(19:30):
in later, sometimes there'smore restrictions.
They've learned as they'vegone along.
You've learned as you've gonealong like that.
So I think you.
I'm not taking anything awayfrom you, but I think you got lucky
getting in there at the toplevel, our initial level.
I mean, remember, partbusiness is luck.
(19:51):
Oh, yeah.
Right place, right time.
I mean, that's part of business.
Yeah.
We call it catching lightningin a bottle.
A sauce bottle.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
But, but again, they're goingto give you a start, but you've got
(20:11):
to do your own back end work.
Yeah, that is true.
We're going to take another break.
We're going to be back withChris Marks from Three Little Pigs
Barbecue right after this withLeanne and myself.
Stay with us.
(20:31):
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Welcome back to Barbecue Nation.
Thank you for being with us today.
We appreciate you inviting usinto your world.
Today, Leanne and I aretalking with Chris Marks from Three
(21:17):
Little Pigs.
By the way, you can findLeanne's in my stuff.
All over social media is whatwe were talking about at the top
of the show.
And you can find Chris's stuffout there, too.
And it's easy to contact us ifyou ever have a question or a comment
or a suggestion through allthe platforms.
And we have emails out There,Barbecue Nation, JT.com Anyway, talking
(21:40):
with Chris Marks here, youtalk about the, the sauces and, and
your rubs and stuff.
How do you tie those in toyour Your, your clinics, you're teaching
like that.
Because a lot of people I'veseen, they come and they, they'll
(22:01):
do a class.
But the whole time during theclass, what we were talking about
at the top of the show, Chris,you've got an influencer and you
should be using this spatulaor my rub here on this and that.
How do you tie those in kindof semi, subtly and then make it
make sense to the, the peopleyou're teaching?
(22:21):
Well, first of all, we talkabout the story of why I'm there.
Very important part.
And you know, I'm a legacy andthis is part of what I do, the rubs
and sauces and that's whatwe'll use for the class.
And again, it is what it is.
I'm not going to go to a storeor and do a class and use somebody
else's stuff.
Right?
(22:41):
Because again, that's just, Imean it defeats my whole cause.
And I'm very subtle about it.
I'm not.
I've learned through my yearsof sell, my 35 years of being on,
on sales, on it.
I'm a soft sell guy.
I'm not that hardcore.
I'm going to jam it in your throat.
You only use my stuff when I talk.
When I teach a class, I teacha class and I tell them, these classes
(23:04):
are about you guys.
Here's how I do it.
My deal is for you to be greatat what you do, but use my rubs.
But if you don't like, it'snot a big deal, modify them the way
you and your family like to do it.
And again, I'm a soft sell.
I'm not a hard sell, neverhave been.
And again, that's why peopleask me for.
I mean, I've been doingclasses up in Chicago for 20 years
(23:26):
now and they asked me to comeback three times a year, four times
a year up in Chicago.
Just keep coming back to theirstores because I show them the value
of how, first of all, sell my,buy my stuff.
But I show them the value, howthat retailer can actually sell more
stuff.
Because again, I come from asales background.
(23:48):
It's just not about my rubsand sauces, is about how, how do
I sell to that store?
How does that sell.
Store sell more things.
You know, I don't care whatyou cook on.
I sell green eggs, rectangs,Traegers, I don't care.
We're going to sell all thosebecause I can cook on all of them.
It's what makes, what makes your.
(24:08):
I didn't mean to Interruptyou, but what makes your actual class,
aside from the mechanics ofthe whatever cooker they're using,
but what makes your class different?
No, that's a great question.
What makes my class differentfrom the other guys is I teach absolute
basics.
I start one on one, and wetalk about charcoals, we talk about
(24:30):
woods, we talk about thescience of why we do what we do.
So many of these people havebeen on YouTube university, and they've
never had any of the basics toeven start with.
And that's what I'm running into.
And I run into it.
And that's again, part ofeverybody on social media not understanding
the basics of smoke, fire and heat.
(24:52):
Yeah.
And so we start there.
But the more important thingis this is I make it them.
I said, I'm going to wrap thisaround you guys, I'm going to go
through that class, you'regoing to tell me your experience,
and I.
And I'm going to wrap itaround them.
And again, I don't care whatyou cook on.
And so many people come in there.
Well, you know, I cook on thisand this is that.
(25:13):
Okay.
Absolutely.
I'm going to show you thebasics of how to cook on anything.
I don't care if it's a pelletcooker, I don't care if it's in the
ground.
I don't care.
We're going to show you how tobe basic, how to understand the science,
and then you make the decisionon what you want to cook on.
You cover all of them, likeribs and chicken and brisket and
(25:35):
whatever or what.
I, I do a 101 and a 102.
A 101 is basically ribs andchicken and the basics of the charcoals
in the woods.
What we're talking about therea lot of that science.
And then I do a 102, which isgoing to be the briskets and the
butts, because they cookreally good together.
Because I want them to smellthem, I want them to taste them,
(25:57):
I want them to have that whole experience.
And that's what a lot of themmiss off social media is that experience
of the smell, the taste, andthe interaction with the actual instructor.
Sure.
Leanne brought this up earlierin the show.
One of my pet peeves ispeople, people on the YouTube University,
(26:17):
as you call it, or Twitter X,always squeezing the snot out of
the juices in the brisket.
That, that makes me crazy.
And Leanne already knows I'mcrazy, so that's fine.
But I, I don't, I don'thonestly see the Value in that.
I mean, it's.
You know, you can point to itand say, man, it looks really juicy,
(26:39):
and then move on.
But you don't have to, like,wring it out like you're putting
it through an old hand dryerfrom the 1920s.
It's.
It's that and the jiggle.
The brisket jiggle.
Yeah, you know, you see thatall the time.
And, you know, you see itwhere they hold the slice up and,
oh, look at my slice.
You know, and again, it's sort of.
(27:00):
I don't know if it's a rightnow to, you know, look at that brisket.
And guaranteed, every brisketyou would cut like that, I could
squeeze the hell out of it,too, and get juice out of it.
So, yeah, no matter how long,it's good.
So.
But again, remember, we talkabout perception, reality.
A lot of that comes down to.
That is, you know, so, Chris,with your business.
(27:23):
So you sell sauces and rubs,you teach classes for your revenue
stream.
I mean, what's the mostlucrative for you?
Rubs and sauces?
I'm finding that the marketfor rubs is higher than sauces, because
I feel like it is.
And in the past, it was great,great point.
So.
And why do you think a lot ofthat's happening for the sauces?
(27:44):
First of all, we've been.
I'm very.
I work with a guy who's asenior, actually, CEO of BMC Volume
Merchandise.
And we always talk about just that.
We talk about strategies andwe talk about the difference between
sauces and rubs and all kindsof things, because he's not that
familiar with rubs, because hecomes from grocery background.
(28:05):
Remember back in the 50s and60s when we had Bullseye, we had
Masterpiece, and our sauceswere 89 cents and 99 cents.
And all that perception thatwe talk about, sauces were brought
in on the grocery with theperception of being cheap.
99 cents.
I mean, even today, we canstill find.
We call them 10 for 10.
So you can still buy 10 for 99 cents.
(28:27):
Right?
What's happening is nowbecause of.
Basically we're specialty, sowe're specialty or premium.
And they've actually have anew category called ultra premium
now.
So that's going to be your 899to 999 to 1099 sauces that you see
at grocery, basically.
Leanne, have we.
What if we hit the sauce, whatwe call walkaways, to where people
(28:50):
are going to look at that at799, 699 and walk away?
Because still on that Shelf,you see them loaded with sweet baby
rays for 1.99.
So that our sauces get intothat price point because the perceptions
that they had back in the 60s,70s and 90s of that cheap condiment.
Are we getting to the pointwhere they see that?
And it's just walk away.
(29:11):
I'm just.
And that's what he pretty muchtold me.
He says you're going to get toa price point on sauces and we're
just talking sauces thatyou're going to actually walk away
from.
So what I did is I look at thebusiness and I actually eliminated
three free sauces and I wentdown to my three, three top selling
sauces and I brought out fournew rubs.
(29:34):
So right there tells you, andwe talked about if you go to a grocery
store, you don't see rubs inthe barbecue lane.
You just don't.
And then that's the grocerystores miss that they should have
a whole barbecue section whereeverything's bound together.
Some are doing it, some arestarting to do it, but most have
separate, just all over the place.
(29:57):
If you look for a barbecue rub.
Right.
But that barbecue rub hasnever really been what we call price
pointed out to, especiallythe, especially the 12 dot sizes
have really never been pricepointed to the grocery public.
So there's no perception thereon where that price point should
be.
So again, I agree with you ahundred percent.
(30:20):
I starting to really weigh.
As the sauces are getting moretowards the walkaway and even in
specialty they're up tothe799,899,999 price points and they're
going to be walkaways.
Do you, Chris, do you thinkthat we're reaching a saturation
point?
I think we, I think we hitsaturation a couple years ago.
(30:42):
Do you?
I do too.
Yeah.
And what I'm seeing with thesaturation point is now we have micro
manufacturer, micro batch guys.
They're basically everybodywho took a fourth place at a barbecue
contest now is having theirrubs and things made.
And what they're doing withthat is that manufacturers really
(31:02):
just not tell them what thereal, real world's all about.
They're just making a bunch ofstuff and thinking that they're going
to be able to schlep it overevery store, running it around and,
and just, you know, I'm goingto give it to your store here.
I'm going to take your store here.
I'm going to take this.
And again, that's, that's nota real model that you could ever
make.
Any money on, you know, I hada, I had a friend a few years ago,
(31:26):
an acquaintance really, and heand his wife came up with some.
They were okay barbecue sauces.
They weren't world beaters,but they weren't bad either.
And he would give me an updateevery once in a while, every month
or so, and he'd say, yeah,this, this store.
And they wanted eight caseshere and this.
(31:46):
And so when I drilled down,having had a bit of experience with
this, I would drill down on that.
And finally I said, you sureyou're just not trading dollars or
losing money all the time?
Because they're wanting, youknow, they're wanting four cases
of your top two sauces for 15stores before they'll even talk to
you.
And then they want you to buya quarterly ad and they're insert.
(32:09):
And you know all the stuff I'm.
Talking about, oh, you'regoing in the right direction.
And, you know, you starttalking grocery, you start talking
about slotting.
Yeah.
You start talking about earlybuys, you start talking about what
we call load end.
Load end.
And it gets, you really haveto have a really good AR system if
(32:29):
you're really working groceryto figure out if you're making money.
Right.
Well, they're out of thebusiness now, so, yeah, you know,
it's kind of self fulfilling.
Props.
Prophecy.
We're going to take a breakand come back and wrap up this part
of the show with Chris Marksand Ms. Whippen.
Stay with us.
You're listening to Barbecue Nation.
(32:57):
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Foreign.
Welcome back to the nation.
I'm JT along with all starhall of Famer Leanne Whippen.
And today we're fortunate tobe talking with Chris Martz from
(34:02):
Three Little Pigs Barbecue inKansas City.
If you were going to give a.
An overall observation, youwere a competitor, but you really
don't do that.
You're a instructor and teacher.
You're the professor of greatthings in all barbecue aspects and
(34:22):
you work in the retail side.
What would your overall viewof barbecue be right now?
Oh, yeah, another great question.
I wish you would told me thata couple of days ago so I can think
about it overall right now, Ithink we're in a transition period
(34:43):
and I that transition periods,basically we're going from.
How are we going?
The reality.
Remember we talked about thereality versus the perception.
How, how long is theperception going to be there?
Until everybody starts tobalance out, basically.
(35:05):
Who's going to come out winning?
Is it going to be more thesocial media side or is it going
to be more towards the traditionalist?
And I think we're sort of inthat transition period right now.
And you know, do I know whereit's going to go?
No, I don't.
You know, I, you know, I'mgoing to be able to play both directions
(35:28):
because I sort of have ahybrid model set up.
Right.
But there's a lot of guys whoreally are into this and they focus
all on one piece.
And you know, I do get a lotof crap because I go out and do a
lot of barbecue classes.
I do a lot of them.
And a lot of the people that Iwork with now have agents and they're
(35:49):
going around basically callingaround and setting stuff up for them.
I, I don't need one.
I mean, I, they call me now, right?
And so that's on my grind, asI call it.
That's my grind.
I'm going to continue to do my grind.
I have about 25 to 30 loyal.
I call them ambassadors, notinfluencers, because I have trained
(36:14):
them, I have vetted thembecause, you know, one influencer,
if you don't vet them, if theygo, they say something wrong, basically.
Guess what, guys, that's youtoo, right?
So I have about 20, and I'veworked with a lot of these guys for
20 some years, 25 years, veryloyal to me and help me spread the
(36:35):
word about three little pigsall across the country.
And the other thing is I focuson different demographics than a
lot of the other guys.
I will, I will hazard a guess here.
My prognostication, I think, Ithink that people will become tired
(37:01):
of.
Because we're already tired ofbeing constantly bombarded every
day.
Great, great point.
You know, images and this andnews Flashes on your phone and all
that.
And I think it'll sort itself out.
The, the influencers, they'renot going to go away, but I think
that people are going to startlooking then say, realizing that
(37:22):
my time is valuable to me andmy family or my work, whatever it
is.
And I don't have time to sitthrough 27 five minute videos every
night that don't tell me jack.
You know, they're going towant to get to the heart of the matter
with guys like you.
Leanne, what do you thinkabout that?
I do.
(37:43):
It's.
I think right now it's really unpredictable.
I almost feel like barbecue, Ihate to use this word, but has kind
of flatlined.
I don't know why I feel thatway, but I just feel like it hit
its peak, especially duringCOVID and everyone being home and
it's just kind of notflatlined, but kind of settled down.
(38:04):
And Chris, kind of like youwere saying, you don't know where
it's going.
And I don't know either.
It'll always be around.
Sure.
You know, I don't know.
It's.
It's.
I feel like we're in a reallyweird space right now.
I'm right with you.
I'm right with you.
I mean, I just, it's just,it's weird.
(38:25):
It is a weird space that just,you know.
And where's it going to go?
Because, you know, we're beingalso, we're being pushed by retailers
to have 150, 200,000 followers.
Right.
And, you know, and so a lot ofthese guys, these other influencer
type, the way they go intothat retailer is, well, you know,
(38:49):
they do all they do.
They have all these worldchampionships and all this and do
all this kind of cool stuff,but guess What?
I got 250,000 followers.
That's right.
They want the followers.
Yeah.
And they don't understand thatthose followers, most of them were
bought.
Yeah.
So.
So, well, the, the age and Ideal with a lot of marketing stuff
with these shows and stuff wedo just like you guys do.
(39:10):
But you can say you have250,000 followers, but how many are
actually looking at everythingyou drop out there?
Absolutely.
You know, 10%, 5%, whatever.
You know, that 250,000 numberthat we've been kicking around is
just a number as far as I'm concerned.
(39:32):
It's again, back to reality.
Chris, you said you go for adifferent demographic.
I kind of want to back up.
What did you mean by that?
Well, so let's call demographic.
So let's look at the United States.
Leanne, where do, and I knowyou're where do 80% of the barbecuers
(39:54):
focus?
What do you mean?
Anybody, Anybody who's comingout with a new rub or a new, where
are they going to go?
Try to focus.
Texas, you know, everybody,Everybody in.
If you see new rubs comingout, they're all coming to Texas.
I'm going to cook Texas stuff,you know, blah, blah, blah.
(40:16):
Yeah, Texas is at its highestpoint right now.
I feel like, like Kansas Citywas, but Texas has kind of jumped
up.
I don't think Kansas City waseven ever close to Texas.
I, I, I kind of do.
I kind of do.
But, you know, long time ago.
But you're right.
Yeah, I agree.
Long time right.
It is Texas.
Because if you're going to doa rub line, you got to have a Texas
(40:38):
rub.
Absolutely correct.
You got, you got to have asalt, pepper, garlic.
You got to have something.
And so I'm like, you know,I'll let everybody have Texas.
And I do pretty well in Texas.
I'm not, I'm not gonna, I'mgonna focus on how many people are
in Chicago, but 9 million.
(40:59):
I do majority of my work in Chicago.
Detroit, Indianapolis,Cincinnati, Cleveland, New Jersey.
How many millions of people up there.
What true barbecue deserts are they?
Yeah, exactly.
(41:21):
Exactly.
And everybody, you know, hell,I, I can see Kansas City from my
house.
You can have Kansas City, too,because again, demographics and then
you know all about Chicago.
What does Chicago got a lotof, A lot of money.
And they have no problem spending.
(41:43):
Detroit, same way.
Cleveland, believe it or not,Cleveland, of all places, the same
way.
And different demographics.
Now, are they harder to get to?
For me, absolutely.
Is it sort of a pain in thebutt because I drive, I don't fly.
I drive.
(42:03):
I take all my stuff with meand I drive.
But I'm a driver.
I can drive forever.
I just drove back from Utahand I mean, it's, I'm a driver.
And so when me and my wife dothis, and I tie my wife into this
too, because she's a salesmanand doesn't know it, she's probably
my best.
And she's an ex teacher, soshe's all about taking care of the
(42:25):
people and all that kind offun stuff.
So the female side of it, too,I cover that with my why.
And so that's what I've seen.
And that's why theseorganizations, these retailers up
east say I need a year in advance.
I'm signing up classes for.
But again, I'm focusing moreon Demographics, looking at basically
(42:49):
expendable income and numberof people.
Chris, where can people find your.
Your products?
I mean, online.
Where's.
Websites give us that.
So, so another point.
I don't sell online becausemost of the time I'm.
I'm out of town most of thetime, and I sell online.
(43:10):
I have a couple, really on my website.
You'll see them.
I got four guys.
One out of Chicago, one out ofIndy, and actually two out of Chicagoland.
My biggest is Ace Hardware.
Okay.
I've been in Ace where foralmost from day one, so a long time
in Ace Hardware.
(43:32):
Lowe's.
Lowe's Hardware.
I've been in there quite awhile now.
They don't carry every sku,but they carry enough shields.
Are you familiar with shields?
I know Leanne is.
Yep.
Oh, yeah.
Shields is very good.
What about Academy?
(43:53):
We are not in Academy.
Okay.
I think they're talking to Academy.
I'm going to give you a plugbecause this is true.
True story.
Back in the wood chicks daysin competition, in the early days,
I sought out your cherry rub.
And to this day, I still loveyour cherry rub.
(44:15):
To me, the only rub thatactually gives you a subtle, authentic
cherry flavor without tasting synthetic.
And I love that rub.
It is one of my favorites.
So a little history about thecherry rub.
That was my mom's rub.
Oh, oh, y.
And we made more fun of that.
And I mean, it's a sissy anime.
(44:36):
You know, my dad was made thechampionship stuff and I made a bunch
of them too, but my mom madethe cherry rub.
And what do you think's thebest seller?
The cherry Rubber?
The cherry.
Yeah.
Yes.
It really dynamite.
It is.
It is fantastic.
We used to make fun of her.
And he called it the rub.
And.
And it is.
(44:56):
It's a great.
The rub.
And my parents had very, very good.
No, they formerly trainedculinary skills, but very good culinary
skills.
Sure.
And especially my dad, and hejust could smell it and taste it,
and if it worked together, he knew.
(45:17):
And my mom was just a good.
Just a good cook.
There you go, Chris.
We got to get out of here.
For the regular show, ChrisMarks, everybody from Three Little
Pigs Barbecue.
Go to their website, read somemore of his story and see their products.
And I got to get my hands on a.
On a jug of that cherry rubhere shortly.
But anyway, if you're going tostick around for after hours, that'll
(45:39):
be coming up next on the podsand stuff.
Until then, Chris, thank you.
We appreciate it.
And Leanne, I'll see you intwo minutes here, so.
All right.
Thank you, everybody, forlistening and inviting us into your
home.
Remember our motto here.
Turn it, don't burn it, Goout, be kind.
Take care.
Barbecue Nation is produced byjtsd, LLC Productions in association
(46:01):
with Salem Media Group.
All rights reserved.
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