October 25, 2025 • 43 mins
The salient theme of this podcast episode revolves around the rich tapestry of barbecue culture, as illuminated through the insights of our esteemed guest, John Marcus. An Emmy-award-winning writer and the creator of the iconic show "Barbecue Pitmasters," Marcus shares his profound journey from an unassuming hobbyist to a celebrated figure in the culinary realm. Our discourse traverses his experiences in the barbecue landscape, emphasizing the significance of community and the intricate processes that define this beloved cuisine. Furthermore, Marcus reflects on his transformative adventures, including a poignant episode where he cooked for military personnel in Kuwait, underscoring the emotional depth that barbecue can invoke. As we delve into the nuances of barbecue techniques and personal anecdotes, we invite our audience to appreciate not only the food but the connections it fosters among individuals and communities alike.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Painted Hills Natural Beef
- Oregon Dungeness Crab Commission
- Heritage Steel
- Hammerstahl
- Gorilla Grills
- Jed Master
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
OP3 - https://op3.dev/privacy
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:46):
It's time for Barbecue Nationwith jt.
So fire up your grill, lightthe charcoal, and get your smoker
cooking.
Now from the Turn It Don'tBurnet studios in Portland, here's
jt.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome to Barbecue Nation.
I'm jt along with my co host,hall of Famer Leanne Whippin.
Coming to you from therespective Turn It Don't Burnet studios
(01:06):
in Portland and Tampa.
We would like to thank thefolks at Painted Hills Natural Beef
Beef the way nature intended,and also the good folks at the Oregon
Dungeness Crab Commission.
That is great stuff.
If you've never had West CoastDungeness crab, you're missing out,
so check them out online.
And also the good folks atPainted Hills.
Well, we've got a very.
Excuse me.
We've got a very honored guestwith us today, John Marcus, who is
(01:32):
an Emmy award winning writerand director and creator of the original
Barbecue Pit Masters.
Fascinating guy.
And we're going to get moreinto that.
And John also happens to be inthe Barbecue hall of fame with Ms.
Whippen.
So.
So I always.
Class.
Same class, I might add.
Same class.
Yeah, I'm always the third wheel.
(01:53):
Yeah, I'm always the third wheel.
When we get the hall of Famersin here, I'm like.
But anyway, John, welcome tothe show.
It's a treat to be here.
I've listened and I really waslooking forward to this because I'm
both years.
So thank you for.
For having me.
And I also think that, Leanne,you and I in a very special inductee
(02:18):
year of the Barbecue hall of Fame.
I think I agree.
I mean, not to say anythingbad about the years that have followed.
And There only been two, correct?
Yes.
Yeah.
Two, right?
24.
Yeah.
I can do math.
You gotta be able to if you barbecue.
And I know you well, so youknow, you know how to do that.
(02:38):
But that was a.
That was a quite an honor anda thrilling phone call to get.
And I would probably bepointed out to me right now by Meathead,
because that is his legal name.
Yes.
He would say to me, well, youknow, I got in before you.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Very competitive guy.
Yes, yes.
(02:59):
He's earned the right.
But oh, my gosh, he can.
He.
He really.
He has not lost the fire.
No.
So let me ask you this.
Did I see that you got your phb?
I do have my phb.
I kneeled before Artie Davisand I.
Want to do that.
I want to go through the process.
I haven't done it.
My dad had it and, yeah, whenI saw that, I'm like, that's so cool.
(03:23):
I didn't know that anybody wasreally still doing that.
But it's mine.
Mine came probably eight, nineyears ago, and it was a great honor.
And along with Nicole Davenport.
Davenport, who's the TexasState master and grit and one of
the people that taught me howto cook pit barbecue.
We.
(03:43):
We both got, I guess you say,like, knighted.
It's like.
And he has a whole ritual thathe does, and it's serious.
And I got this mop, this mopthat he's written, you know, the
honor upon the, upon the stickof the mop.
And I have it framed in myhouse upstate.
And there's not a person thatwalks by it that knows what the hell
(04:05):
it is.
You really have to stop andsay, well, that's a basting mop.
But not in this case.
That's how you.
Yeah, that's cool.
So, John, I wanted to ask you,how's the, how's the barbecue addiction
thing coming with you?
My personal barbecueaddiction, you mean?
Yes, yes.
(04:26):
Well, I always say that it wasstarted as a hobby, but now it's
a hobby in need of an intervention.
So addiction is a good word.
I am still hopelessly addictedto the process of low and slow outdoor
smoking of these proteins.
I, I, I still love it.
And I have these events coming up.
(04:48):
I'm, you know, I haul out the,the rotisseries I have on the trailer.
One of them being a jed thatLeanne knows all about.
Yep.
And then I have another smokerthat was delivered to me and never
worked properly, and Istripped it out and turned it into
a jet.
And it's beautiful piece ofwork I won't go into who gave me
(05:08):
that smoker.
I know.
But it was sold to me in a waythat didn't seem to function.
So I, I, I got that done.
It was funny.
I had this pit, and I.
No one north of the MasonDixon line really knows how this
(05:29):
stuff is made.
Barbecue is made.
They do now, more so becauseof the TV show.
I think it's helped awarenessof barbecue.
And now people are doing it.
You can see, I can see, like,barbecue joints springing up.
But I had this project Iwanted to do to convert this smoker,
and there were welders in thisabandoned warehouse in Hudson, New
(05:54):
York, two guys who look likethey could have been part of a heavy
metal band.
And they welded in the dark inthis big shop.
And they got work, a lot of work.
They're very good.
And I Drove the pit into thefloor, onto the floor of this warehouse.
And they looked at it and theysaid, well, what does it do?
And I said, well, the purposehere is to cook meat with smoke and
(06:17):
embers over low temperature.
But I have these ideas.
And that was the first timethey'd ever seen a pit.
Wow.
And that was great for me tohave to put into words what it should
do.
Right.
And they did a fantastic job.
They did a fantastic job.
And it's one of my favoritethings to cook on now.
(06:38):
That's great.
I love that.
Good for you.
What?
So that's a long winded answerto am I still addicted?
Yes.
Yeah, that's okay.
That's okay.
And we promise no intervention today.
Okay.
Well, you're gonna have tocome and find me, Jeff, But.
Okay.
All right.
I'm pretty good at finding people.
(06:58):
Okay.
What.
What prompted all this for you?
What prompted your interest inbarbecue and low and slow and then
graduated up to putting it on television?
It was an unexpected turn inmy life's events.
I mean, I'd been busy writingfor TV and still write Now I write
(07:23):
mostly for the theater.
I mean, I'm primarily a writer.
And I was writing a project upat my house.
I had a pilot ordered with AlFranken, the alumni of Saturday Night
Live.
Right.
Public best selling author,former senator.
(07:45):
At the time, he had been.
He had been a writer and aperformer on snl and he'd also published
these books, a couple of them.
And I didn't know anythingabout barbecue.
I grew up in Ohio, middle ofOhio, which now they have an awareness.
Right.
And you, both of you must knowpeople in the Midwest now who are.
(08:07):
Barbecue in the upper Midwest, like.
Right.
It's not so much in Ohio.
A few.
I don't know what it is aboutmy state.
Maybe it's the fact that it'sthe gateway to the Midwest or it's
the crossover, I don't know.
But it is not a big deal therein any way.
Couple of places in Columbusnow, and I'm sure in Cleveland as
(08:30):
well.
Yeah.
Michael.
Michael Simon would beg to differ.
Because isn't he Ohio?
Yeah, he is.
Yes.
I remember as a kid there wasa place in Cincinnati called Montgomery
Brothers where you could getmail order ribs from them.
They were on.
They had a restaurant on theriver there, and you could go and
get like, spares there, andall of it was parboiled.
(08:53):
Oh, geez.
But you know you love what yougrow up with, right?
Yeah, right.
Yeah, that's what you love.
And so I didn't know what thiscuisine was.
And.
And Al, during one of ourwriting sessions, he saw a unused
Weber kettle on my.
On my patio.
(09:15):
It was just shiny and newbecause I didn't use it.
I bought it because I had ahouse, and I thought I should, but
didn't use it.
He said, you don't know thisabout me, John, but I'm a grillmeister.
Wow.
I make the best ribs in New England.
And I thought, like, what?
(09:36):
That was a very confusingtitle to take, you know?
Right.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
But we went set about makinghis ribs, which involved marinating
them in hefty bags with acouple of pounds of sugar and a bushel
of garlic and gallons of soy sauce.
Oh, wow.
(09:56):
Wow.
And he wanted me to get thatcharcoal grill as hot as possible,
and he cooked those in 25 minutes.
Wow.
We sat down to eat, and I'mignorant of what it's supposed to
be.
We sat down to eat, and Icouldn't even chew him.
And he ate all his.
(10:18):
And he ate all mine.
That, you know, they.
I'd gnawed on him a little bit.
He just finished them all.
And a switch went off in my head.
What is this?
Why is it a beloved cuisine?
And who the hell can I find toshow me how to do it?
Yeah.
And all research at that pointpointed to Paul Kirk.
(10:39):
Oh, sure, Paul Kirk, the baronof barbecue.
Yeah, we've all had dealingswith Paul.
Right, right, right.
Yeah.
He's a character, too.
He's an original.
Yeah.
And.
And, you know, also a pathfinder.
Let's call him that.
I mean, he.
His book on rubs and sauces Ithink is one of the best books.
(11:04):
How to Books of Barbecue.
I don't know how you guys feelabout it.
I have it.
And I agree.
I have it.
I agree.
Yeah, yeah.
Simple, straightforward.
This is what you can do.
And so I called his home.
I got the phone number becausethe Internet was new then, but I
got Paul Kirk's home phonenumber, and his daughter answered
(11:25):
the phone, and she was in aterrible mood.
And I introduced myself andsaid, I want to learn how to do this.
And Paul seems to be the guy Ican learn from.
And she said, well, he's got me.
He's got me in the house allday making his damn sauce.
Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.
Yeah.
I know it.
I can't stand doing this.
(11:46):
And.
And.
And, look, look, I don't knowwho you are, but if you want to learn
from my dad, write him a checkfor $500.
And you can go cook with him.
That's what I did.
Yeah.
And.
And I got on an airplane.
And his directions were, renta car at the airport in Kansas City
and drive to Lenexa, Kansas.
(12:06):
And at Lenexa, there's aLenexa barbecue battle, which is
the oldest contest in the U.S.and I was on Paul's team, and Paul's
team consisted of me and Paul.
He found himself a sucker.
We're gonna take a break.
We're gonna be back with JohnMarcus and more stories from the
(12:29):
barbecue wars.
As far as him coming upthrough the ranks, you might say,
on Barbecue Nation.
Stay with us.
Hey, everybody, it's Jeff here.
I want to tell you aboutsomething really cool.
Heritage steel cookware.
(12:49):
I just got mine.
I do a lot of cooking.
And it's got five ply construction.
Stay cool handles.
It's titanium strengthened.
It's got all the great stuff.
Just go to HeritageSteel usand find out more.
You'll love it.
I guarantee it.
(13:15):
Welcome back to the Nation onjt, along with hall of Famer Leanne
Whippen.
If you want to find us, we'vegot links on all the main site to
get to all the different sitesthat Leanne and I have, and it's
just barbecue nation, jt.com.
yeah, you can get her sites,her social media, my sites, my social
media, all that stuff.
(13:36):
It's all good.
Well, we're talking with JohnMarcus today.
Not only a Hall of Famer, butan Emmy winning writer, director,
feel.
I don't want to say theologian.
What's the right term I'mlooking for there, John?
As far as proselytizer.
Yes.
Yeah.
Barbecue.
And.
(13:57):
Yeah.
So did your friends in the, inthe writing circles, in the media
circles, if you will, did theylook at you like, what in the hell
are you doing?
You know, I have a friend.
I'll tell you two examples.
I have an old.
One of my oldest friends hereis a movie director named Joe Rubin.
(14:19):
And we know each other quite well.
Where he's my eating buddy.
Okay.
And he knows food.
And we, we in Manhattan, we goout to eat.
We're always complaining aboutthe meals we get here.
Everything in Manhattan islike a disappointment, basically.
I hate to say it, but you getcharged a lot of money.
(14:40):
These restaurants are toutedas fantastic.
You gotta go and then you go,and then it's sort of like disappointing.
But Joe said that when I beganthe hobby, he would have bet his
whole bank account that Iwould have lost interest in a month
and he couldn't believe I wasbringing home some equipment I was
(15:02):
starting.
Very simple.
I started with a Weber Smoky Mountain.
And because Paul said, don'tspend money.
You don't need the money.
Don't spend a lot of money onthe meat, and don't spend money on
equipment.
Just learn how to do it a verysimple way.
Great advice.
I. I give that advice often.
And.
And Joe was surprised to seethat the hobby grew and grew, and.
(15:27):
And I.
The equipment got bigger, the meat.
You know, friends were comingup to my house to try it.
But the person that was themost surprised by this sudden change
in my life was my psychotherapist.
(15:47):
He.
He was a Freudian, so hedoesn't talk much.
He's no longer with us.
He.
He died at 91 years of age.
He.
He actually spoke up duringone of my sessions.
Imagine, I mean, I'm lying ona couch, because that's old school,
right?
And out of the middle ofnowhere, he goes, where the hell
(16:08):
did this barbecue thing comefrom with you?
And it was a great thing tohear him say, because I had to figure
that out.
I'm paying this guy good moneyto lie down there and talk.
And it was a good thing tothink about on a personal level.
That barbecue for me, is aboutcreating community.
(16:33):
Community in.
In your colleagues, the peoplewho you learn from, who cook with
you.
Community.
And the people that get tocome and eat food like they could
not have anywhere near wherethey live.
Yeah.
People like I. I mostly serve Yankees.
Right, Right.
Like you said, it's the.
(16:54):
You're well above the MansonNixon line.
So.
Yes, I'm well above it.
First time I've heard itcalled that.
And that's.
Right.
And.
And when you have people.
People go like, I've never hadthis before.
I've never had anything like this.
Because we all know that at acertain level of this food, cooking
(17:16):
it, and.
And you guys do it, and weknow people that do it, that it is.
It is an otherworldly experience.
You get to taste things likenothing else around.
Do you.
Do you find, John, that one ofyour greatest pleasures is when you're.
(17:37):
You.
You've got friends over,whatever, and you're serving ribs.
Tri tips, doesn't matter.
And they smile and they lookat you and they kind of mutter about
how good it is and that.
I find that.
Personally, I think Leannedoes, too.
That's one of my greatest joysin life.
I agree.
I agree totally with that.
(17:58):
I'll add to it that the nightbefore I'm going To be barbecuing
because as we know, it's afull day affair.
Often the actor.
The night before I go to bedwith the smile, I put my head on
a pillow, knowing what I getto do the next day.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I can't say I feel that way ata contest.
(18:20):
No, no.
Probably why I don't docontests anymore.
Yeah, yeah.
But I did a party.
I did a party last weekend forif I love you, I will do barbecue
for you.
I cooked a wedding receptionfor two people.
I love someone who I adore.
(18:43):
Her husband was having an 84thbirthday party and he likes my ribs.
That.
Which are competition style.
Who doesn't like those, right?
Yeah.
And.
And it was a full day cook.
I had to have.
I had to have two pits workingto get.
Get the food done becausethere were 40 people.
(19:04):
And it was one of the great days.
It was such a good day.
I mean, I get pleasure from ascript, but, you know, the thing
about a script is it's yearsin the making and it's heartbreak
and disappointment, but agood, smooth cook is like, almost
like a nice.
Like you're getting to takeAmbien or something.
(19:26):
Yeah, I never thought of itthat way, but that's true.
I just.
It is medicinal.
I mean, I find cooking ingeneral, it takes my mind off of
things, and I find it relaxes me.
And, yeah, it's like chillmode, except in competition.
Yeah, I agree.
(19:46):
I think it's very therapeutic.
Back to your shrink, John.
But I think it's verytherapeutic because I get lost in
that world.
Everything else is shut outfor a period of time.
Right.
Like, it's like you kind ofdisappear because you've got so many
(20:06):
tasks.
What?
You know, I've had people comeup and stay with me during a cook
at my house, and they have noidea all the moving parts in making
barbecue.
Right.
It's.
It's.
It's a day of prep.
It's a day of cooking.
It's a day of cleanup.
And it's a little dangeroussometimes to work with these hot
(20:30):
surfaces.
And, you know, I'm.
I'm always getting injuredwhen I cook, but I see the little
scars and burn marks here andthere's my badges of honor.
Yes, yes, absolutely.
Hey, we're going to takeanother break.
We're going to be back withEmmy winning John Marcus Barbecue
hall of Fame.
I almost said pit Masters hallof Fame.
(20:50):
And we're going to talk aboutpitmasters when we come back.
Stay with us.
Hey, everybody, it's Jt And Ihave eaten.
If you've ever looked at me,you know that.
But I have eaten seafood allover the world, and I can tell you
(21:12):
there's no place better thanhere in Oregon and our Dungeness
crab.
If you want to learn moreabout Oregon Dungeness crab, just
go to oregondungeness.org findout how to cook it, how.
To catch it, where to buy it.
And the sustainability of whatthey're doing there in the Oregon
Crab Commission.
Check it out.
(21:40):
Welcome back to the nation again.
We'd like to thank the folksat Painter Hills Natural beef.
Beef the way nature intended.
And little drum roll here, Leanne.
Pig powder.
Pig powder.
My dad's dry rub.
John, you know pig powder.
I do.
I know.
Yeah.
So, yes, pigpowder.com you canget 24 ounces right now.
(22:03):
They were out of stock, andI'm working on some label adjustments,
and then the little guys willbe in.
But one best rub on theplanet, and a lot of competitors
use it and people in general,and you can get it on Amazon as well.
I still think he should sendautographed photographs with an order.
Well, it's funny.
We have John on the show now.
(22:24):
I remember when we wereshooting these pictures for Barbecue
Pitmasters, and I have a biglog with a hatchet in it that I had
to throw over my shoulder forthe photo shoot.
And I'm like, how are theygoing to get that hatchet in there?
Well, they took like achainsaw and then grooved it and
then put the hatchet in there.
And I remember holding it, andit was getting heavier and heavier
(22:46):
and heavier.
Anyway, John, what possessedyou to.
To do Pitmasters?
I mean, you.
You created it and youdirected it.
It was your baby.
Did you see a need for it?
Was it more out of love foryour love for barbecue?
Or what was the.
(23:08):
As they would say inHollywood, what's.
What's the thought behind this?
What's the thought behind it?
Well, to really get to thethought of barbecue Pitmasters, we
got to go back to All StarBarbecue Showdown.
Sure was suggested to me andco executive produced with me and,
And.
And actually starring ChrisLilly, the great Chris Lilly, who,
(23:32):
when I was doing a. I wasrecording a radio show at Big Bob
Gibson, Indicator Alabama with Chris.
They graciously allowed me tocome and interview people.
I was doing a thing, a segmentcalled Good Ribbon for Al Franken,
who had a liberal radio showat the time.
And we would.
I would go around the country.
(23:53):
I took my love of barbecue,the beginning of it.
And I would interview peopleabout who has the best ribs and where
we are and talk about barbecueas part of these political segments.
And at the end of the segment,Chris pitched me, why can't you do
Iron Chef for barbecue?
So the whole idea of acompetition show posted that way
(24:15):
was something that Chris hadsuggested to me.
And then together we developedit into a TV series and sold it to
the Outdoor Life Network,which had a maple leaf.
A maple leaf logo in the corner.
And it actually had beennicknamed the Hook and Bullet Network.
I remember back in the day.
And this is.
This is about a decade ago.
(24:37):
And we did the show, which wasjust basically kind of a competition,
piggybacked on another competition.
And that's how the show began.
But then I decided at acertain point, Chris went off to
do his things, and I decided,well, what would it be like to do
a documentary style show aboutteams competing and follow real teams
(25:02):
around actual contests?
And that's what get.
That's what gave life tobarbecue Pitmasters.
So.
And that show is still inreruns, even though they turned it
back to a competition series.
And everywhere I go in theworld of barbecue, I hear the same
(25:25):
thing, which is, John,everything after season one sucks.
How did you connect?
I get that, too.
And a lot of people.
A lot of people want to knowif you're going to bring back the
old style one.
Yeah, I, you know, I do theshow again with In a Heartbeat because
(25:47):
that's the show.
That's really what the pure,authentic show was supposed to be.
And I loved what we did withthose stories.
And we were pretty true to the feel.
When you say, having beenabsolutely part of that show.
Leanne.
Yeah.
It was not scripted.
It was.
It was the real deal.
It was well edited becausethere was a lot of footage.
(26:07):
Footage, obviously, whenyou're doing overnight cooks and
traveling and this and that.
But it.
And it wasn't like we had towin every contest.
It was the journey of doingwhat you do whether you win or lose.
You know, that's right.
And that gave it a drama.
And you liked everybody.
But the reason the networkcanceled it and decided to revamp
(26:30):
it is they were upset that our.
Our members weren't winningevery week.
That's why they canceled it.
Well, your people aren't winning.
And I said, well, that's theheartbreak is part of the whole thing.
We're right.
If we're gonna do a real show,this is what really.
And it's interesting whetherthey win or not.
(26:50):
Yeah, right.
Well, that didn't work.
Well, you know, John, I was ona, I wasn't on a barbecue reality
show.
I was on a food show whichshall rename, remain nameless because
I thought it was horrible.
But when I went in to do theshoot and we were down in Georgia
and we were doing the shoot, Ifigured out about 20 minutes into
(27:15):
this deal that they alreadyhad their winners picked on and this.
And I was.
And when I, when I reallyfound that out is when I went to
get the supplies for myoriginal recipe.
You had to send in three recipes.
Okay.
And I went to do this and theysaid, oh, you can't do that one,
(27:35):
because we've never seen thattype of thing at a state fair.
And I said, well, I, I live onthe west coast and I've traveled
all over the country manytimes, spend a lot of state fairs
and I.
You could see this at anystate fair.
No you can't.
So I had to do my second one.
Then they mislabeled itintentionally as a breakfast item,
(27:57):
which it was not.
And in fact, one of the judgessaid, well, where's the syrup?
And I said, there's no syrupin this thing.
And so it, it really, youknow, kind of.
Well, one, it offended me, butnobody cares about that.
But two, I just thought, whata disservice to the viewer.
Well, they, unfortunately, theworst of television and I buy worst.
(28:21):
I'm talking about the ethicsand the approach to the audience
that some networks have, whichis they think less of people.
They feel things have to bedumbed down or relatable.
And no hit show has ever beendeveloped with those condescending
(28:42):
attitudes toward an audience.
No hit show comes out of that.
It shows.
And, and the fact that ourshow, you know, season one of Pitmasters
is still there and still itjust shows you that it, we were,
we never tried to manipulate anything.
Leanne, you know, I knowyou're going to give me the right
answer here, but you were,that's true.
(29:06):
We, I stood up for thePitmasters and, and, and, and Brian
Catalina was somebody whounderstood that he had to get his
show done.
But we, we didn't have tocompromise the truth ever of what
it takes to cook this food.
And that's what made it.
The grittiness of it and theheartbreak of it was really interesting.
And I don't know if I've toldyou this, but year four of barbecue
(29:32):
Pitmasters, when it was fullon game show, just the friggin Game
show, I asked to have ameeting with the head of the network
at Destination America, whichI don't think exists anymore.
It's another name now.
The network.
Got some American destination.
Oh, okay.
Maybe.
I don't know.
(29:53):
Well, I had an.
I had a lunch with thisgentleman, and this is the first
time in my career I've.
Of course, I've never workedin a.
On a barbecue show my wholeother career.
But I asked him after thesalads were consumed, if he would
please cancel the show.
What did he say?
(30:13):
I said, look, I'm here tooffer any possible ways to take what
it is now and make it better,but if you guys don't want to listen
to any of these ideas, pleasetake it off the air.
And he just looked at mechewing his lunch and said, no, we're
(30:36):
not doing that.
And lunch was over soon after that.
Yeah, because I thought theywere hurting the field because it
was dumbed down by people thatfelt like America can't get certain
things.
And, you know, it's, it's typical.
There are networks where theyrespect the intelligence audience,
(30:56):
but I, I sadly say this wasnot one of them.
Well, some of the.
I don't want to get off in the weeds.
We'll do that in after hours.
But one of the things I'venoticed on the barbecue shows is
they become very much the same.
Repetitive.
(31:17):
They're very repetitive.
And yeah, you see somebody intheir trailer injecting their briskets
or doing whatever, and I knowit works for them, that's fine.
But then they go to the nexttrailer and the next trailer and
it's the same thing.
And like you said, John,they're not really.
(31:37):
They're not really sharingcook techniques.
They're not really sharing anyinside baseball, if you will.
It's just like, oh, yeah, I dothis and I'm up at 4 in the morning
and blah, blah, blah.
And yeah, I find them kind of boring.
It bores me to death.
And, and, and what they'redoing, it's like, you know, back
(31:58):
in the day when the word wasxerox, which they don't use anymore
because no one's xeroxing.
But if you get to the seventhor eighth copy of something, it just
starts to look a little fadedand worn and you can't really read
it.
That's what happens.
It's like, we're going to copythat original show, and let's face
it, they all copy thatoriginal show.
If you look at that very, veryexpensive Netflix barbecue show,
(32:21):
there are a lot of elements ofour show that are on it.
And God bless them for doingwhat they're doing, and at least
they're spending a lot ofmoney in the production.
But, you know, it feels likewe know it all already.
We know this, and there areways to show it anew, which is what
I would love to do next if I,if I did another one is there are
(32:42):
ways to, like, make the stakeshigher, to have more fun with, with
process and method and, and tolearn things and to have certain
experts on and.
But I don't know where I'mgoing to sell that one.
Yeah, that might be a little tough.
Yeah.
Hey, we got to take another break.
We're going to come back andtalk with John some more here on
(33:04):
Barbecue Nation.
Stay with us.
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Hey, everybody, it's jt.
You know, I talk about paintedhills all the time, and we always
say beef the way nature intended.
But it's more than thatbecause each bite of Painted Hills
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Hey, everybody, J.T.
Here.
I want to tell you aboutHammerstahl knives.
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They're part of the HeritageSteel Group, which also does their
pots and pans.
So go to heritagesteel USCheck out the Hammer Stahl knives
(34:13):
if you're really into cooking.
I think you're really going tolike them.
Welcome back to Barbecue Nation.
We'd like to thank GorillaGrills, Heritage Steel and Hammersall
knives there.
And we're talking with JohnMarcus today, the original wizard
(34:37):
behind Barbecue Pit Masters.
Also with Chris Lilly, if I can.
With Chris Lilly.
Yeah.
Chris Lilly.
I bet you I know something that.
That you don't about Chris.
John, please.
I'd love to hear it.
It's related to underwear,isn't it?
Yeah, it's related to underwear.
Oh, no.
Why?
Want to be part of this, Jeff?
(34:57):
Really?
Let's talk about it in after hours.
Yeah.
But I'll tell you a greatChris thing, because, I mean, Chris
is To me, one of the senseisof barbecue, true Zen masters of
barbecue.
And I once walked into.
We were in a competition somewhere.
(35:19):
I got.
I had the opportunity to cookon his team with Don McLemore and
Don's friend Bill.
And these are great memories,Great memories.
And Chris was standing alonein a tent with a brisket, and the
brisket was just him and thebrisket in his small tent.
(35:39):
The brisket was lying on acutting board and it was coming to
room temperature, and he wasjust staring at it.
And I didn't say anything.
I just watched for a coupleminutes and I.
Then finally I said, what areyou doing?
And Chris said this in all seriousness.
He said, I'm letting it talkto me.
(36:01):
Okay.
It's telling me how it wouldlike to be cooked.
It's telling me the spotsit'll finish first.
It's telling me what kind ofheat I should be using on it, and
it's telling me how long it'sgoing to need.
Are you sure you're shrinking?
I want one of those briskets.
Yeah, you want a talking brisket?
(36:24):
I want a talking brisket.
Well, I don't.
I can't tell you what brand it was.
I think it might have been acreek stone, but I think there are
a few talking briskets out there.
We're.
We're.
Next time he's on the show,Leanne, we're gonna have to bring
that inquire about the talking.
Yeah, well, he.
(36:45):
Yeah, I think he'll.
I think he'll remember that.
I think he will, but I. I'vehad many great cooking experiences
with.
With.
He's very generous as to whathe knows I have my jet master because
of Chris.
Actually, I have a couple of them.
Sometimes he'll call me andhe'll say, I. I don't need one now,
but there's one out there and I'll.
(37:06):
And I'll go get it.
You and I have one.
Gotta get the trailer too, though.
Gotta get the trailer, too.
The enclosed trailer, the one that.
It's all coming as one, huh?
Yeah.
It's got a three compartmentsink and a hand sink and a refrigerator.
I mean, you got.
It's.
It's like the.
(37:28):
The extras that you need forwhat you're barbecuing.
Absolutely.
And is it sitting in Florida,you know, Jeff?
Oh, yeah, it's in my parking lot.
It's in my parking lot.
Yep.
And you can also buy mySilverado if you'd like.
That tows it.
Oh, wow.
Okay.
Well, see, I. I think Let meinterject something here.
(37:50):
See, John, I think he shouldget that trailer and then bring Leanne
up and you two do a cook andfilm it either in Central park or.
Oh, yeah, Rock Center Park.
I'm sure they'd love that.
Times Square, wherever youcould get it in.
And I think that would just bea hell of a deal.
Yeah.
Oh, I'd love to.
I'd cook with Leanne anywhere.
(38:10):
Yeah, I would cook with youanywhere as well.
Yeah.
All right, well, we'll figurethis out.
So anyway, yeah, it's all good.
I think that John, by the way.
You know, we talk about theseJet Masters real quick.
Yeah, fantastic.
They're amazing cookers.
And they're, it's, it's, it'sa wonderful story.
The inventor and the creatorof, of Jed Master and why he did
(38:33):
it and how he did it.
Dennis.
Yeah.
Who was a pair, who was aparalegal or was in, in Kansas City.
I think Dennis is.
I know he's not making themnow, but he's right.
He's out there.
He sold the rights to makethem to James Britt.
Yeah.
The Ring of Fire.
(38:53):
He patented the Ring of Fire.
He knew if he could do that,he might be able to sleep while making
barbecue.
Now, everybody uses a versionof the patented ring.
If a lot of people figure outways to adapt that to whatever, they're
Right.
Right.
But, but, you know, anythingthat can give you an old fashioned
taste is really interestingand a great way to go in barbecue.
(39:16):
And with that, I mean, youknow, on the Jet Master, it's the
rendering.
Fat falling on this hot baffle.
Yep.
Which I think is black iron inmost of them.
I have a Jed that it's blackiron and heavy as all hell to deal
with.
And these things, these thingsare just accidents waiting to happen.
(39:39):
But they know how to, theycook well.
But I have one on a trailer, asmall trailer.
Not an enclosed trailer, but asmall trailer that Dennis made the
trailer as well.
And I had to drive to NorthCarolina to pick it up.
It was just, you know, therewas a trucker, a very nice gentleman
(40:00):
who called me to let me knowit was available.
And then I sent him a checkfor it right away.
And then he, the check arrivedback in the mail and he called me
and said when I thought ofselling it, I started to cry.
Oh.
And my girlfriend said, don't.
I don't want you crying allover the place all the time.
So keep it.
So he kept it.
(40:20):
And then a year later hecalled me and said, I'M ready to
let it go.
Did he let the girlfriend gotoo, or did he.
I think the girlfriend stayed.
Okay.
All right.
I think so.
She sounded very nice,actually, but.
But I.
Why an orange trailer?
Because that was not Dennis'spaint job.
That was the first owner.
(40:40):
And it was an orange trailerbecause the guy that first bought
it, his day job, was paintingPopeye's chicken franchises.
Oh, no kidding?
Really?
Popeye's orange.
He used the Popeyes orange onthe Jed on the.
On the jet trailer.
I ain't gonna touch it.
(41:00):
Yeah, Original.
After all your adventures tothis point in your life, John, what
barbecue?
What do you think yourgreatest one is?
Is it Pitmasters?
Is it hall of Fame?
Is it the people?
What is it?
I'd have to say I think the.
The greatest adventure wasflying to Kuwait to cook for the
(41:23):
tr.
Yeah, that.
That's got to be the greatestadventure of all.
Going to a.
A military base that was eightmiles from the border of Iraq during
The drawdown in 2010, inNovember 2010, and cooking for.
In two locations for a totalof 5200 soldiers and marines.
(41:49):
I'll never forget that.
And very emotional thing to do.
And a hundred of them in eachlocation stayed up with us all night
to do the food.
There you go.
There you go.
I've been over in that area.
It's not what you'd call agarden spot.
No, not at all.
Not at all.
(42:09):
And it's like something sprungup in the middle of nowhere.
Right.
You know, it's amazing whatwe're able, what we're capable of
doing.
You know, this country andthose folks have to be fed every
day.
And this was the first time ina year that they had gotten a home
cooked meal.
We're going to get out of here.
(42:30):
Thank you, John Marcus, forbeing with us.
You are definitely on theinvite list anytime, any place.
That's for sure.
And Leanne and I have got togo, but John is going to stick around
for after hours, so rememberour motto here.
Turn it, don't burn it, goout, have some barbecue, cook it
and have some fun.
Take care, everybody.
Barbecue Nation is produced byJTSD LLC Productions in association
(42:53):
with Salem Media Group.
All rights reserved.
It's time for Barbecue Nationwith jt.
So fire up your grill, lightthe charcoal, and get your smoker
cooking.
Now from the Turn It Don'tBurnet studios in Portland, here's
jt.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome to Barbecue Nation.
I'm jt along with my co host,hall of Famer Leanne Whippin.
Coming to you from therespective Turn It Don't Burnet studios
(01:06):
in Portland and Tampa.
We would like to thank thefolks at Painted Hills Natural Beef
Beef the way nature intended,and also the good folks at the Oregon
Dungeness Crab Commission.
That is great stuff.
If you've never had West CoastDungeness crab, you're missing out,
so check them out online.
And also the good folks atPainted Hills.
Well, we've got a very.
Excuse me.
We've got a very honored guestwith us today, John Marcus, who is
(01:32):
an Emmy award winning writerand director and creator of the original
Barbecue Pit Masters.
Fascinating guy.
And we're going to get moreinto that.
And John also happens to be inthe Barbecue hall of fame with Ms.
Whippen.
So.
So I always.
Class.
Same class, I might add.
Same class.
Yeah, I'm always the third wheel.
(01:53):
Yeah, I'm always the third wheel.
When we get the hall of Famersin here, I'm like.
But anyway, John, welcome tothe show.
It's a treat to be here.
I've listened and I really waslooking forward to this because I'm
both years.
So thank you for.
For having me.
And I also think that, Leanne,you and I in a very special inductee
(02:18):
year of the Barbecue hall of Fame.
I think I agree.
I mean, not to say anythingbad about the years that have followed.
And There only been two, correct?
Yes.
Yeah.
Two, right?
24.
Yeah.
I can do math.
You gotta be able to if you barbecue.
And I know you well, so youknow, you know how to do that.
(02:38):
But that was a.
That was a quite an honor anda thrilling phone call to get.
And I would probably bepointed out to me right now by Meathead,
because that is his legal name.
Yes.
He would say to me, well, youknow, I got in before you.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Very competitive guy.
Yes, yes.
(02:59):
He's earned the right.
But oh, my gosh, he can.
He.
He really.
He has not lost the fire.
No.
So let me ask you this.
Did I see that you got your phb?
I do have my phb.
I kneeled before Artie Davisand I.
Want to do that.
I want to go through the process.
I haven't done it.
My dad had it and, yeah, whenI saw that, I'm like, that's so cool.
(03:23):
I didn't know that anybody wasreally still doing that.
But it's mine.
Mine came probably eight, nineyears ago, and it was a great honor.
And along with Nicole Davenport.
Davenport, who's the TexasState master and grit and one of
the people that taught me howto cook pit barbecue.
We.
(03:43):
We both got, I guess you say,like, knighted.
It's like.
And he has a whole ritual thathe does, and it's serious.
And I got this mop, this mopthat he's written, you know, the
honor upon the, upon the stickof the mop.
And I have it framed in myhouse upstate.
And there's not a person thatwalks by it that knows what the hell
(04:05):
it is.
You really have to stop andsay, well, that's a basting mop.
But not in this case.
That's how you.
Yeah, that's cool.
So, John, I wanted to ask you,how's the, how's the barbecue addiction
thing coming with you?
My personal barbecueaddiction, you mean?
Yes, yes.
(04:26):
Well, I always say that it wasstarted as a hobby, but now it's
a hobby in need of an intervention.
So addiction is a good word.
I am still hopelessly addictedto the process of low and slow outdoor
smoking of these proteins.
I, I, I still love it.
And I have these events coming up.
(04:48):
I'm, you know, I haul out the,the rotisseries I have on the trailer.
One of them being a jed thatLeanne knows all about.
Yep.
And then I have another smokerthat was delivered to me and never
worked properly, and Istripped it out and turned it into
a jet.
And it's beautiful piece ofwork I won't go into who gave me
(05:08):
that smoker.
I know.
But it was sold to me in a waythat didn't seem to function.
So I, I, I got that done.
It was funny.
I had this pit, and I.
No one north of the MasonDixon line really knows how this
(05:29):
stuff is made.
Barbecue is made.
They do now, more so becauseof the TV show.
I think it's helped awarenessof barbecue.
And now people are doing it.
You can see, I can see, like,barbecue joints springing up.
But I had this project Iwanted to do to convert this smoker,
and there were welders in thisabandoned warehouse in Hudson, New
(05:54):
York, two guys who look likethey could have been part of a heavy
metal band.
And they welded in the dark inthis big shop.
And they got work, a lot of work.
They're very good.
And I Drove the pit into thefloor, onto the floor of this warehouse.
And they looked at it and theysaid, well, what does it do?
And I said, well, the purposehere is to cook meat with smoke and
(06:17):
embers over low temperature.
But I have these ideas.
And that was the first timethey'd ever seen a pit.
Wow.
And that was great for me tohave to put into words what it should
do.
Right.
And they did a fantastic job.
They did a fantastic job.
And it's one of my favoritethings to cook on now.
(06:38):
That's great.
I love that.
Good for you.
What?
So that's a long winded answerto am I still addicted?
Yes.
Yeah, that's okay.
That's okay.
And we promise no intervention today.
Okay.
Well, you're gonna have tocome and find me, Jeff, But.
Okay.
All right.
I'm pretty good at finding people.
(06:58):
Okay.
What.
What prompted all this for you?
What prompted your interest inbarbecue and low and slow and then
graduated up to putting it on television?
It was an unexpected turn inmy life's events.
I mean, I'd been busy writingfor TV and still write Now I write
(07:23):
mostly for the theater.
I mean, I'm primarily a writer.
And I was writing a project upat my house.
I had a pilot ordered with AlFranken, the alumni of Saturday Night
Live.
Right.
Public best selling author,former senator.
(07:45):
At the time, he had been.
He had been a writer and aperformer on snl and he'd also published
these books, a couple of them.
And I didn't know anythingabout barbecue.
I grew up in Ohio, middle ofOhio, which now they have an awareness.
Right.
And you, both of you must knowpeople in the Midwest now who are.
(08:07):
Barbecue in the upper Midwest, like.
Right.
It's not so much in Ohio.
A few.
I don't know what it is aboutmy state.
Maybe it's the fact that it'sthe gateway to the Midwest or it's
the crossover, I don't know.
But it is not a big deal therein any way.
Couple of places in Columbusnow, and I'm sure in Cleveland as
(08:30):
well.
Yeah.
Michael.
Michael Simon would beg to differ.
Because isn't he Ohio?
Yeah, he is.
Yes.
I remember as a kid there wasa place in Cincinnati called Montgomery
Brothers where you could getmail order ribs from them.
They were on.
They had a restaurant on theriver there, and you could go and
get like, spares there, andall of it was parboiled.
(08:53):
Oh, geez.
But you know you love what yougrow up with, right?
Yeah, right.
Yeah, that's what you love.
And so I didn't know what thiscuisine was.
And.
And Al, during one of ourwriting sessions, he saw a unused
Weber kettle on my.
On my patio.
(09:15):
It was just shiny and newbecause I didn't use it.
I bought it because I had ahouse, and I thought I should, but
didn't use it.
He said, you don't know thisabout me, John, but I'm a grillmeister.
Wow.
I make the best ribs in New England.
And I thought, like, what?
(09:36):
That was a very confusingtitle to take, you know?
Right.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
But we went set about makinghis ribs, which involved marinating
them in hefty bags with acouple of pounds of sugar and a bushel
of garlic and gallons of soy sauce.
Oh, wow.
(09:56):
Wow.
And he wanted me to get thatcharcoal grill as hot as possible,
and he cooked those in 25 minutes.
Wow.
We sat down to eat, and I'mignorant of what it's supposed to
be.
We sat down to eat, and Icouldn't even chew him.
And he ate all his.
(10:18):
And he ate all mine.
That, you know, they.
I'd gnawed on him a little bit.
He just finished them all.
And a switch went off in my head.
What is this?
Why is it a beloved cuisine?
And who the hell can I find toshow me how to do it?
Yeah.
And all research at that pointpointed to Paul Kirk.
(10:39):
Oh, sure, Paul Kirk, the baronof barbecue.
Yeah, we've all had dealingswith Paul.
Right, right, right.
Yeah.
He's a character, too.
He's an original.
Yeah.
And.
And, you know, also a pathfinder.
Let's call him that.
I mean, he.
His book on rubs and sauces Ithink is one of the best books.
(11:04):
How to Books of Barbecue.
I don't know how you guys feelabout it.
I have it.
And I agree.
I have it.
I agree.
Yeah, yeah.
Simple, straightforward.
This is what you can do.
And so I called his home.
I got the phone number becausethe Internet was new then, but I
got Paul Kirk's home phonenumber, and his daughter answered
(11:25):
the phone, and she was in aterrible mood.
And I introduced myself andsaid, I want to learn how to do this.
And Paul seems to be the guy Ican learn from.
And she said, well, he's got me.
He's got me in the house allday making his damn sauce.
Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.
Yeah.
I know it.
I can't stand doing this.
(11:46):
And.
And.
And, look, look, I don't knowwho you are, but if you want to learn
from my dad, write him a checkfor $500.
And you can go cook with him.
That's what I did.
Yeah.
And.
And I got on an airplane.
And his directions were, renta car at the airport in Kansas City
and drive to Lenexa, Kansas.
(12:06):
And at Lenexa, there's aLenexa barbecue battle, which is
the oldest contest in the U.S.and I was on Paul's team, and Paul's
team consisted of me and Paul.
He found himself a sucker.
We're gonna take a break.
We're gonna be back with JohnMarcus and more stories from the
(12:29):
barbecue wars.
As far as him coming upthrough the ranks, you might say,
on Barbecue Nation.
Stay with us.
Hey, everybody, it's Jeff here.
I want to tell you aboutsomething really cool.
Heritage steel cookware.
(12:49):
I just got mine.
I do a lot of cooking.
And it's got five ply construction.
Stay cool handles.
It's titanium strengthened.
It's got all the great stuff.
Just go to HeritageSteel usand find out more.
You'll love it.
I guarantee it.
(13:15):
Welcome back to the Nation onjt, along with hall of Famer Leanne
Whippen.
If you want to find us, we'vegot links on all the main site to
get to all the different sitesthat Leanne and I have, and it's
just barbecue nation, jt.com.
yeah, you can get her sites,her social media, my sites, my social
media, all that stuff.
(13:36):
It's all good.
Well, we're talking with JohnMarcus today.
Not only a Hall of Famer, butan Emmy winning writer, director,
feel.
I don't want to say theologian.
What's the right term I'mlooking for there, John?
As far as proselytizer.
Yes.
Yeah.
Barbecue.
And.
(13:57):
Yeah.
So did your friends in the, inthe writing circles, in the media
circles, if you will, did theylook at you like, what in the hell
are you doing?
You know, I have a friend.
I'll tell you two examples.
I have an old.
One of my oldest friends hereis a movie director named Joe Rubin.
(14:19):
And we know each other quite well.
Where he's my eating buddy.
Okay.
And he knows food.
And we, we in Manhattan, we goout to eat.
We're always complaining aboutthe meals we get here.
Everything in Manhattan islike a disappointment, basically.
I hate to say it, but you getcharged a lot of money.
(14:40):
These restaurants are toutedas fantastic.
You gotta go and then you go,and then it's sort of like disappointing.
But Joe said that when I beganthe hobby, he would have bet his
whole bank account that Iwould have lost interest in a month
and he couldn't believe I wasbringing home some equipment I was
(15:02):
starting.
Very simple.
I started with a Weber Smoky Mountain.
And because Paul said, don'tspend money.
You don't need the money.
Don't spend a lot of money onthe meat, and don't spend money on
equipment.
Just learn how to do it a verysimple way.
Great advice.
I. I give that advice often.
And.
And Joe was surprised to seethat the hobby grew and grew, and.
(15:27):
And I.
The equipment got bigger, the meat.
You know, friends were comingup to my house to try it.
But the person that was themost surprised by this sudden change
in my life was my psychotherapist.
(15:47):
He.
He was a Freudian, so hedoesn't talk much.
He's no longer with us.
He.
He died at 91 years of age.
He.
He actually spoke up duringone of my sessions.
Imagine, I mean, I'm lying ona couch, because that's old school,
right?
And out of the middle ofnowhere, he goes, where the hell
(16:08):
did this barbecue thing comefrom with you?
And it was a great thing tohear him say, because I had to figure
that out.
I'm paying this guy good moneyto lie down there and talk.
And it was a good thing tothink about on a personal level.
That barbecue for me, is aboutcreating community.
(16:33):
Community in.
In your colleagues, the peoplewho you learn from, who cook with
you.
Community.
And the people that get tocome and eat food like they could
not have anywhere near wherethey live.
Yeah.
People like I. I mostly serve Yankees.
Right, Right.
Like you said, it's the.
(16:54):
You're well above the MansonNixon line.
So.
Yes, I'm well above it.
First time I've heard itcalled that.
And that's.
Right.
And.
And when you have people.
People go like, I've never hadthis before.
I've never had anything like this.
Because we all know that at acertain level of this food, cooking
(17:16):
it, and.
And you guys do it, and weknow people that do it, that it is.
It is an otherworldly experience.
You get to taste things likenothing else around.
Do you.
Do you find, John, that one ofyour greatest pleasures is when you're.
(17:37):
You.
You've got friends over,whatever, and you're serving ribs.
Tri tips, doesn't matter.
And they smile and they lookat you and they kind of mutter about
how good it is and that.
I find that.
Personally, I think Leannedoes, too.
That's one of my greatest joysin life.
I agree.
I agree totally with that.
(17:58):
I'll add to it that the nightbefore I'm going To be barbecuing
because as we know, it's afull day affair.
Often the actor.
The night before I go to bedwith the smile, I put my head on
a pillow, knowing what I getto do the next day.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I can't say I feel that way ata contest.
(18:20):
No, no.
Probably why I don't docontests anymore.
Yeah, yeah.
But I did a party.
I did a party last weekend forif I love you, I will do barbecue
for you.
I cooked a wedding receptionfor two people.
I love someone who I adore.
(18:43):
Her husband was having an 84thbirthday party and he likes my ribs.
That.
Which are competition style.
Who doesn't like those, right?
Yeah.
And.
And it was a full day cook.
I had to have.
I had to have two pits workingto get.
Get the food done becausethere were 40 people.
(19:04):
And it was one of the great days.
It was such a good day.
I mean, I get pleasure from ascript, but, you know, the thing
about a script is it's yearsin the making and it's heartbreak
and disappointment, but agood, smooth cook is like, almost
like a nice.
Like you're getting to takeAmbien or something.
(19:26):
Yeah, I never thought of itthat way, but that's true.
I just.
It is medicinal.
I mean, I find cooking ingeneral, it takes my mind off of
things, and I find it relaxes me.
And, yeah, it's like chillmode, except in competition.
Yeah, I agree.
(19:46):
I think it's very therapeutic.
Back to your shrink, John.
But I think it's verytherapeutic because I get lost in
that world.
Everything else is shut outfor a period of time.
Right.
Like, it's like you kind ofdisappear because you've got so many
(20:06):
tasks.
What?
You know, I've had people comeup and stay with me during a cook
at my house, and they have noidea all the moving parts in making
barbecue.
Right.
It's.
It's.
It's a day of prep.
It's a day of cooking.
It's a day of cleanup.
And it's a little dangeroussometimes to work with these hot
(20:30):
surfaces.
And, you know, I'm.
I'm always getting injuredwhen I cook, but I see the little
scars and burn marks here andthere's my badges of honor.
Yes, yes, absolutely.
Hey, we're going to takeanother break.
We're going to be back withEmmy winning John Marcus Barbecue
hall of Fame.
I almost said pit Masters hallof Fame.
(20:50):
And we're going to talk aboutpitmasters when we come back.
Stay with us.
Hey, everybody, it's Jt And Ihave eaten.
If you've ever looked at me,you know that.
But I have eaten seafood allover the world, and I can tell you
(21:12):
there's no place better thanhere in Oregon and our Dungeness
crab.
If you want to learn moreabout Oregon Dungeness crab, just
go to oregondungeness.org findout how to cook it, how.
To catch it, where to buy it.
And the sustainability of whatthey're doing there in the Oregon
Crab Commission.
Check it out.
(21:40):
Welcome back to the nation again.
We'd like to thank the folksat Painter Hills Natural beef.
Beef the way nature intended.
And little drum roll here, Leanne.
Pig powder.
Pig powder.
My dad's dry rub.
John, you know pig powder.
I do.
I know.
Yeah.
So, yes, pigpowder.com you canget 24 ounces right now.
(22:03):
They were out of stock, andI'm working on some label adjustments,
and then the little guys willbe in.
But one best rub on theplanet, and a lot of competitors
use it and people in general,and you can get it on Amazon as well.
I still think he should sendautographed photographs with an order.
Well, it's funny.
We have John on the show now.
(22:24):
I remember when we wereshooting these pictures for Barbecue
Pitmasters, and I have a biglog with a hatchet in it that I had
to throw over my shoulder forthe photo shoot.
And I'm like, how are theygoing to get that hatchet in there?
Well, they took like achainsaw and then grooved it and
then put the hatchet in there.
And I remember holding it, andit was getting heavier and heavier
(22:46):
and heavier.
Anyway, John, what possessedyou to.
To do Pitmasters?
I mean, you.
You created it and youdirected it.
It was your baby.
Did you see a need for it?
Was it more out of love foryour love for barbecue?
Or what was the.
(23:08):
As they would say inHollywood, what's.
What's the thought behind this?
What's the thought behind it?
Well, to really get to thethought of barbecue Pitmasters, we
got to go back to All StarBarbecue Showdown.
Sure was suggested to me andco executive produced with me and,
And.
And actually starring ChrisLilly, the great Chris Lilly, who,
(23:32):
when I was doing a. I wasrecording a radio show at Big Bob
Gibson, Indicator Alabama with Chris.
They graciously allowed me tocome and interview people.
I was doing a thing, a segmentcalled Good Ribbon for Al Franken,
who had a liberal radio showat the time.
And we would.
I would go around the country.
(23:53):
I took my love of barbecue,the beginning of it.
And I would interview peopleabout who has the best ribs and where
we are and talk about barbecueas part of these political segments.
And at the end of the segment,Chris pitched me, why can't you do
Iron Chef for barbecue?
So the whole idea of acompetition show posted that way
(24:15):
was something that Chris hadsuggested to me.
And then together we developedit into a TV series and sold it to
the Outdoor Life Network,which had a maple leaf.
A maple leaf logo in the corner.
And it actually had beennicknamed the Hook and Bullet Network.
I remember back in the day.
And this is.
This is about a decade ago.
(24:37):
And we did the show, which wasjust basically kind of a competition,
piggybacked on another competition.
And that's how the show began.
But then I decided at acertain point, Chris went off to
do his things, and I decided,well, what would it be like to do
a documentary style show aboutteams competing and follow real teams
(25:02):
around actual contests?
And that's what get.
That's what gave life tobarbecue Pitmasters.
So.
And that show is still inreruns, even though they turned it
back to a competition series.
And everywhere I go in theworld of barbecue, I hear the same
(25:25):
thing, which is, John,everything after season one sucks.
How did you connect?
I get that, too.
And a lot of people.
A lot of people want to knowif you're going to bring back the
old style one.
Yeah, I, you know, I do theshow again with In a Heartbeat because
(25:47):
that's the show.
That's really what the pure,authentic show was supposed to be.
And I loved what we did withthose stories.
And we were pretty true to the feel.
When you say, having beenabsolutely part of that show.
Leanne.
Yeah.
It was not scripted.
It was.
It was the real deal.
It was well edited becausethere was a lot of footage.
(26:07):
Footage, obviously, whenyou're doing overnight cooks and
traveling and this and that.
But it.
And it wasn't like we had towin every contest.
It was the journey of doingwhat you do whether you win or lose.
You know, that's right.
And that gave it a drama.
And you liked everybody.
But the reason the networkcanceled it and decided to revamp
(26:30):
it is they were upset that our.
Our members weren't winningevery week.
That's why they canceled it.
Well, your people aren't winning.
And I said, well, that's theheartbreak is part of the whole thing.
We're right.
If we're gonna do a real show,this is what really.
And it's interesting whetherthey win or not.
(26:50):
Yeah, right.
Well, that didn't work.
Well, you know, John, I was ona, I wasn't on a barbecue reality
show.
I was on a food show whichshall rename, remain nameless because
I thought it was horrible.
But when I went in to do theshoot and we were down in Georgia
and we were doing the shoot, Ifigured out about 20 minutes into
(27:15):
this deal that they alreadyhad their winners picked on and this.
And I was.
And when I, when I reallyfound that out is when I went to
get the supplies for myoriginal recipe.
You had to send in three recipes.
Okay.
And I went to do this and theysaid, oh, you can't do that one,
(27:35):
because we've never seen thattype of thing at a state fair.
And I said, well, I, I live onthe west coast and I've traveled
all over the country manytimes, spend a lot of state fairs
and I.
You could see this at anystate fair.
No you can't.
So I had to do my second one.
Then they mislabeled itintentionally as a breakfast item,
(27:57):
which it was not.
And in fact, one of the judgessaid, well, where's the syrup?
And I said, there's no syrupin this thing.
And so it, it really, youknow, kind of.
Well, one, it offended me, butnobody cares about that.
But two, I just thought, whata disservice to the viewer.
Well, they, unfortunately, theworst of television and I buy worst.
(28:21):
I'm talking about the ethicsand the approach to the audience
that some networks have, whichis they think less of people.
They feel things have to bedumbed down or relatable.
And no hit show has ever beendeveloped with those condescending
(28:42):
attitudes toward an audience.
No hit show comes out of that.
It shows.
And, and the fact that ourshow, you know, season one of Pitmasters
is still there and still itjust shows you that it, we were,
we never tried to manipulate anything.
Leanne, you know, I knowyou're going to give me the right
answer here, but you were,that's true.
(29:06):
We, I stood up for thePitmasters and, and, and, and Brian
Catalina was somebody whounderstood that he had to get his
show done.
But we, we didn't have tocompromise the truth ever of what
it takes to cook this food.
And that's what made it.
The grittiness of it and theheartbreak of it was really interesting.
And I don't know if I've toldyou this, but year four of barbecue
(29:32):
Pitmasters, when it was fullon game show, just the friggin Game
show, I asked to have ameeting with the head of the network
at Destination America, whichI don't think exists anymore.
It's another name now.
The network.
Got some American destination.
Oh, okay.
Maybe.
I don't know.
(29:53):
Well, I had an.
I had a lunch with thisgentleman, and this is the first
time in my career I've.
Of course, I've never workedin a.
On a barbecue show my wholeother career.
But I asked him after thesalads were consumed, if he would
please cancel the show.
What did he say?
(30:13):
I said, look, I'm here tooffer any possible ways to take what
it is now and make it better,but if you guys don't want to listen
to any of these ideas, pleasetake it off the air.
And he just looked at mechewing his lunch and said, no, we're
(30:36):
not doing that.
And lunch was over soon after that.
Yeah, because I thought theywere hurting the field because it
was dumbed down by people thatfelt like America can't get certain
things.
And, you know, it's, it's typical.
There are networks where theyrespect the intelligence audience,
(30:56):
but I, I sadly say this wasnot one of them.
Well, some of the.
I don't want to get off in the weeds.
We'll do that in after hours.
But one of the things I'venoticed on the barbecue shows is
they become very much the same.
Repetitive.
(31:17):
They're very repetitive.
And yeah, you see somebody intheir trailer injecting their briskets
or doing whatever, and I knowit works for them, that's fine.
But then they go to the nexttrailer and the next trailer and
it's the same thing.
And like you said, John,they're not really.
(31:37):
They're not really sharingcook techniques.
They're not really sharing anyinside baseball, if you will.
It's just like, oh, yeah, I dothis and I'm up at 4 in the morning
and blah, blah, blah.
And yeah, I find them kind of boring.
It bores me to death.
And, and, and what they'redoing, it's like, you know, back
(31:58):
in the day when the word wasxerox, which they don't use anymore
because no one's xeroxing.
But if you get to the seventhor eighth copy of something, it just
starts to look a little fadedand worn and you can't really read
it.
That's what happens.
It's like, we're going to copythat original show, and let's face
it, they all copy thatoriginal show.
If you look at that very, veryexpensive Netflix barbecue show,
(32:21):
there are a lot of elements ofour show that are on it.
And God bless them for doingwhat they're doing, and at least
they're spending a lot ofmoney in the production.
But, you know, it feels likewe know it all already.
We know this, and there areways to show it anew, which is what
I would love to do next if I,if I did another one is there are
(32:42):
ways to, like, make the stakeshigher, to have more fun with, with
process and method and, and tolearn things and to have certain
experts on and.
But I don't know where I'mgoing to sell that one.
Yeah, that might be a little tough.
Yeah.
Hey, we got to take another break.
We're going to come back andtalk with John some more here on
(33:04):
Barbecue Nation.
Stay with us.
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(33:30):
Hey, everybody, it's jt.
You know, I talk about paintedhills all the time, and we always
say beef the way nature intended.
But it's more than thatbecause each bite of Painted Hills
will make your taste buds explode.
Put a big, bright smile onyour face, and whoever's at your
dinner table will have a big,bright smile on their face.
And you can thank me for that later.
(33:50):
Just go topaintedhillsbeef.com and find out
more.
You won't regret it.
Hey, everybody, J.T.
Here.
I want to tell you aboutHammerstahl knives.
Hammerstahl combines Germansteel with beautiful and functioning
designs.
They're part of the HeritageSteel Group, which also does their
pots and pans.
So go to heritagesteel USCheck out the Hammer Stahl knives
(34:13):
if you're really into cooking.
I think you're really going tolike them.
Welcome back to Barbecue Nation.
We'd like to thank GorillaGrills, Heritage Steel and Hammersall
knives there.
And we're talking with JohnMarcus today, the original wizard
(34:37):
behind Barbecue Pit Masters.
Also with Chris Lilly, if I can.
With Chris Lilly.
Yeah.
Chris Lilly.
I bet you I know something that.
That you don't about Chris.
John, please.
I'd love to hear it.
It's related to underwear,isn't it?
Yeah, it's related to underwear.
Oh, no.
Why?
Want to be part of this, Jeff?
(34:57):
Really?
Let's talk about it in after hours.
Yeah.
But I'll tell you a greatChris thing, because, I mean, Chris
is To me, one of the senseisof barbecue, true Zen masters of
barbecue.
And I once walked into.
We were in a competition somewhere.
(35:19):
I got.
I had the opportunity to cookon his team with Don McLemore and
Don's friend Bill.
And these are great memories,Great memories.
And Chris was standing alonein a tent with a brisket, and the
brisket was just him and thebrisket in his small tent.
(35:39):
The brisket was lying on acutting board and it was coming to
room temperature, and he wasjust staring at it.
And I didn't say anything.
I just watched for a coupleminutes and I.
Then finally I said, what areyou doing?
And Chris said this in all seriousness.
He said, I'm letting it talkto me.
(36:01):
Okay.
It's telling me how it wouldlike to be cooked.
It's telling me the spotsit'll finish first.
It's telling me what kind ofheat I should be using on it, and
it's telling me how long it'sgoing to need.
Are you sure you're shrinking?
I want one of those briskets.
Yeah, you want a talking brisket?
(36:24):
I want a talking brisket.
Well, I don't.
I can't tell you what brand it was.
I think it might have been acreek stone, but I think there are
a few talking briskets out there.
We're.
We're.
Next time he's on the show,Leanne, we're gonna have to bring
that inquire about the talking.
Yeah, well, he.
(36:45):
Yeah, I think he'll.
I think he'll remember that.
I think he will, but I. I'vehad many great cooking experiences
with.
With.
He's very generous as to whathe knows I have my jet master because
of Chris.
Actually, I have a couple of them.
Sometimes he'll call me andhe'll say, I. I don't need one now,
but there's one out there and I'll.
(37:06):
And I'll go get it.
You and I have one.
Gotta get the trailer too, though.
Gotta get the trailer, too.
The enclosed trailer, the one that.
It's all coming as one, huh?
Yeah.
It's got a three compartmentsink and a hand sink and a refrigerator.
I mean, you got.
It's.
It's like the.
(37:28):
The extras that you need forwhat you're barbecuing.
Absolutely.
And is it sitting in Florida,you know, Jeff?
Oh, yeah, it's in my parking lot.
It's in my parking lot.
Yep.
And you can also buy mySilverado if you'd like.
That tows it.
Oh, wow.
Okay.
Well, see, I. I think Let meinterject something here.
(37:50):
See, John, I think he shouldget that trailer and then bring Leanne
up and you two do a cook andfilm it either in Central park or.
Oh, yeah, Rock Center Park.
I'm sure they'd love that.
Times Square, wherever youcould get it in.
And I think that would just bea hell of a deal.
Yeah.
Oh, I'd love to.
I'd cook with Leanne anywhere.
(38:10):
Yeah, I would cook with youanywhere as well.
Yeah.
All right, well, we'll figurethis out.
So anyway, yeah, it's all good.
I think that John, by the way.
You know, we talk about theseJet Masters real quick.
Yeah, fantastic.
They're amazing cookers.
And they're, it's, it's, it'sa wonderful story.
The inventor and the creatorof, of Jed Master and why he did
(38:33):
it and how he did it.
Dennis.
Yeah.
Who was a pair, who was aparalegal or was in, in Kansas City.
I think Dennis is.
I know he's not making themnow, but he's right.
He's out there.
He sold the rights to makethem to James Britt.
Yeah.
The Ring of Fire.
(38:53):
He patented the Ring of Fire.
He knew if he could do that,he might be able to sleep while making
barbecue.
Now, everybody uses a versionof the patented ring.
If a lot of people figure outways to adapt that to whatever, they're
Right.
Right.
But, but, you know, anythingthat can give you an old fashioned
taste is really interestingand a great way to go in barbecue.
(39:16):
And with that, I mean, youknow, on the Jet Master, it's the
rendering.
Fat falling on this hot baffle.
Yep.
Which I think is black iron inmost of them.
I have a Jed that it's blackiron and heavy as all hell to deal
with.
And these things, these thingsare just accidents waiting to happen.
(39:39):
But they know how to, theycook well.
But I have one on a trailer, asmall trailer.
Not an enclosed trailer, but asmall trailer that Dennis made the
trailer as well.
And I had to drive to NorthCarolina to pick it up.
It was just, you know, therewas a trucker, a very nice gentleman
(40:00):
who called me to let me knowit was available.
And then I sent him a checkfor it right away.
And then he, the check arrivedback in the mail and he called me
and said when I thought ofselling it, I started to cry.
Oh.
And my girlfriend said, don't.
I don't want you crying allover the place all the time.
So keep it.
So he kept it.
(40:20):
And then a year later hecalled me and said, I'M ready to
let it go.
Did he let the girlfriend gotoo, or did he.
I think the girlfriend stayed.
Okay.
All right.
I think so.
She sounded very nice,actually, but.
But I.
Why an orange trailer?
Because that was not Dennis'spaint job.
That was the first owner.
(40:40):
And it was an orange trailerbecause the guy that first bought
it, his day job, was paintingPopeye's chicken franchises.
Oh, no kidding?
Really?
Popeye's orange.
He used the Popeyes orange onthe Jed on the.
On the jet trailer.
I ain't gonna touch it.
(41:00):
Yeah, Original.
After all your adventures tothis point in your life, John, what
barbecue?
What do you think yourgreatest one is?
Is it Pitmasters?
Is it hall of Fame?
Is it the people?
What is it?
I'd have to say I think the.
The greatest adventure wasflying to Kuwait to cook for the
(41:23):
tr.
Yeah, that.
That's got to be the greatestadventure of all.
Going to a.
A military base that was eightmiles from the border of Iraq during
The drawdown in 2010, inNovember 2010, and cooking for.
In two locations for a totalof 5200 soldiers and marines.
(41:49):
I'll never forget that.
And very emotional thing to do.
And a hundred of them in eachlocation stayed up with us all night
to do the food.
There you go.
There you go.
I've been over in that area.
It's not what you'd call agarden spot.
No, not at all.
Not at all.
(42:09):
And it's like something sprungup in the middle of nowhere.
Right.
You know, it's amazing whatwe're able, what we're capable of
doing.
You know, this country andthose folks have to be fed every
day.
And this was the first time ina year that they had gotten a home
cooked meal.
We're going to get out of here.
(42:30):
Thank you, John Marcus, forbeing with us.
You are definitely on theinvite list anytime, any place.
That's for sure.
And Leanne and I have got togo, but John is going to stick around
for after hours, so rememberour motto here.
Turn it, don't burn it, goout, have some barbecue, cook it
and have some fun.
Take care, everybody.
Barbecue Nation is produced byJTSD LLC Productions in association
(42:53):
with Salem Media Group.
All rights reserved.
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