BATTLE: An acrostic that will change how you approach your struggles

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What if the pull of porn is really a hunger for connection and joy? James Craig sits down with Dr. Marcus Warner to map a route to sexual integrity—one that trades shame and isolation for belonging, identity, healing, and maturity. We unpack the BATTLE model: build community that fosters true belonging, act like your real self as a protector, tackle roots by addressing wounds, lies, vows, and strongholds, take down the enemy by revoking permission and standing in authority, live by the Spirit through a daily relational walk, and expand maturity so emotions no longer derail you.

Marcus reframes recovery with two game-changing insights. First, belonging—not mere accountability—drives transformation because we will fight for people who are glad to be with us. Second, addiction often signals stalled maturity rooted in unresolved trauma and missing skills. 

If this conversation resonates, subscribe, share with a friend, and leave a review. Tell us: which part of the BATTLE model do you plan to focus on this week?

An Invitation for our annual women's retreat.

Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole:

• Email us questions! [e-mail]

👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
For most people, the desire for porn is driven by a
lack of connection and a lack ofrelational joy.
I'm gonna say that again.
For most people, the desire forporn is driven by a lack of
connection and a lack ofrelational joy.
Welcome to the Becoming Wholepodcast this week.
I'm James Craig, the director ofprojects here at regeneration

(00:21):
and a spiritual coach.
And I just want to ask you allthis question, all the listeners
is it possible that you'remissing a key element to your
recovery journey?
I'm asking you to kind of takethat with a humble posture.
Am I missing something, Lord?
Is there something that youactually want to fill in?
Well, today I'm joined by one ofthe most holistic Christian

(00:41):
thinkers on formation intoChrist-likeness, who's going to
speak to his powerful,multifaceted approach to sexual
integrity.
So if you're struggling withunwanted sexual behaviors or
desires, if you're a spouse whocan't understand why your
husband or wife keep struggling,or if you're a parent trying to
know how to walk with your kids,this episode is for you.

(01:02):
So our guest today is Dr.
Marcus Warner, author andpresident of Deeper Walk
International.
Some of you will know if you'vebeen listening to this podcast
or if you've been coached by methat his book, Rare Leadership,
co-authored with Jim Wilder, hasbeen so impactful and it's been
impactful on me and those I walkwith.
So welcome, Marcus, BecomingHold Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 (01:22):
Ah, it's a pleasure to join you, James.
It's good work you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 (01:25):
Thank you, sir.
Well, Marcus, I mentioned rareleadership, but we're actually
going to focus on a differentbook of yours, a much smaller
book that actually has a fewpictures.
It's kind of funny.
I'm open to a page right nowwith some pictures.
But this book is called Slayingthe Monster.
So for those on YouTube, you cansee I'm holding up almost looks
like a Lord of the Rings stylebattle that you got going on
there.
But you say in this book thatthere are many models within the

(01:48):
church about how to overcomeaddiction and habitual sin.
But when a model doesn't work,people often blame the person
struggling instead ofquestioning the model.
So instead of that dynamic,you're advocating for a holistic
approach to overcoming sexualsin.
So could you give us just alittle like a kind of a quick
overview of the model, thebattle model?

(02:09):
You you love across s I wonderhow many we're gonna fit into
this episode today.

SPEAKER_01 (02:14):
I have hundreds, so it's yeah, okay.
Is it actually in the hundredsat this point?
It is, yeah.
So the it helps me remember theimportant things I need to
remember, and so I just sharethem with people.
But yeah, I it's it seemedappropriate because it's a
battle.
I understand the battle, and itstarts with B is build
community, and it's the ideathat a lot of us have this

(02:36):
fantasy that I'm gonna fixmyself in isolation, show up and
be, you know, all of a sudden besuper Christian and do it all on
my own, similar to the fantasysome guys have when they're in
high school, like I'm gonnachange my body over the summer
and show up, and everybody'sgonna be amazed at how buff I
am, you know.
But it's a but we really needother people, we need to be in
community with people who are ona journey that we're on and can

(02:58):
encourage each other on thatjourney.
Second one, the A is we need toact like ourselves.
And what we're getting at hereis that when I am, whatever
addiction it is, uh whether it'spornography or whether it's some
other addiction, I am not actinglike myself when I do that.
And it's a mistake to defineourselves by our addictions.

(03:19):
That's not the true me comingthrough, that's a malfunctioning
version of me.
And so we need to learn tounderstand our true identity.
And beyond that, and I mean,even more than just my covenant
identity in Christ that I'm asaint and that sort of thing.
That's part of it, but it's alsounderstanding the heart that God
gave me and who I really am.
So that's the that's the A.

(03:40):
T.
We've got we got to tackle somestuff.
And the first thing we had totackle are the root issues that
led to this.
Dr.
Wilder taught me to treat myfirst exposure to pornography as
trauma.
He said a lot of times guys arecelebrated for their first,
like, oh, good for you.
Wow, you got to see the goodstuff kind of thing, instead of
saying, Oh, poor you, you weretraumatized.

(04:02):
That's not something you shouldhave been exposed to.
That's not something you shouldhave had to see.

SPEAKER_00 (04:06):
And so we got to get to those images, they're so
they're so overwhelming to thenervous system.

SPEAKER_01 (04:11):
So overwhelming, right?
And so it's it is a traumaticevent, and we need to treat it
like a traumatic event and getto those root issues of what was
underneath it that led to all ofthis starting.
So that's number three.
The next T in battle is takingdown, yeah, we got to take down
the enemy, and that is that I amnot the enemy, right?
I'm not in a war with myself,I'm in a war with an actual

(04:34):
adversary who wants who usespornography as a lure to get me
ensnared so that he can cause meto live like a slave, even
though I have been set free.
And so we need to learn somethings about spiritual warfare.
How does that work?
How do I how do I live invictory on a daily basis?
How do I get rid of demonicstrongholds, things like that?

(04:55):
And then the L is living withthe spirit and the idea that you
can't train your flesh toovercome this, you've got to
learn what walking in the spiritis.
And one of the things we try topoint out is that walking in the
spirit isn't about having asupernatural experience that
suddenly fixes everything.
There's a lot of people who tendto think that I just need a such
a powerful encounter with theHoly Spirit that I get zapped

(05:17):
and I no longer have thisdesire.
And there's probably storieswhere that's happened, but that
is not the normal way that thistakes place.
The normal way this takes placeis I am in a relational walk
with the spirit and learningmore and more how to walk in the
spirit and crucify the flesh asa result.
And then the the E, the lastpoint here is maybe in some ways

(05:40):
the most significant.
And you could say that the firstfive actually add up to this,
that this is the ultimate goal,and that is that we want to
expand our maturity.
You may have noticed that whenit comes to addictions, that a
lot of people just sort ofrotate addictions, and that is
they'll give up porn for awhile, but they'll start
overeating, or they'll give upovereating for a while and

(06:00):
they'll start smoking or doingsome other kind of you know
behavior.

SPEAKER_00 (06:04):
We call it I like to call it like sin whack-a-mole,
right?
Yeah, you get down one and theother one pops up.

SPEAKER_01 (06:09):
Exactly.
And so what the reason that'shappening is that we talk about
infant level maturity,child-level maturity, adult
level maturity, parent and elderlevel maturity, and also what it
means to have holes in yourmaturity development.
Because the thing that causesholes in our maturity
development is trauma.

(06:31):
And that's both the bad stuffthat happens to us, but trauma
is also the good stuff we missedout on growing up that would
have made a huge difference ifwe had just had that good stuff
in our lives.
And so the idea is learning toevaluate where am I at in my
maturity development?
What got in the way of that?
So, are there skills I'm goingto need to build?

(06:51):
Are there wounds that need toget healed?
There's some things that need tohappen for me to begin leveling
up my maturity and filling theholes in my maturity
development.

SPEAKER_00 (07:00):
Do you remember off the top of your head, Marcus?
I feel like Dr.
Wilder, Dr.
Jim Wilder has a kind of aparticular way he defines
trauma, something about likeoverwhelming, going beyond what
our capacity can handle at thattime.
Do you have that off the top ofyour head?

SPEAKER_01 (07:13):
Yeah, you said it pretty well, actually.
It's just the traumas and it isthere's two kinds of trauma.
Trauma B is what overwhelms ourcapacity.
Trauma A is what keeps us frombuilding capacity in the first
place.
So, for example, trauma A wouldbe I didn't live with enough joy
in my nuclear family.
It's like I my dad was absentand angry all the time.

(07:35):
I didn't get any joy from him.
Or my mom was so into her ownissues, she didn't have time for
me, and I didn't get joy.
And I nobody was there stayingrelational with me, helping me
deal with my big emotions andbeing happy to be with me.
And I just it's I they weren'tabusive to me.
He didn't like smack me with abelt because of that.
He just ignored me and I didn'tget what I needed.

(07:56):
What that does is it shrinks thegrowth of our emotional
capacity, and so it'straumatizing to us in this in
the standpoint that I just don'tgrow things that are extremely
important that need to be grownand need to be developed.
And so that's a kind of trauma.
In fact, it's a harder kind oftrauma to actually deal with
than the bad, than the B trauma,the bad stuff that happens to

(08:19):
us.
It's actually almost easier togo back to painful memories of
bad things that happened and toexperience healing for those
than it is to do all of the workof rebuilding skills that we
missed.
And so, yeah, that's a longanswer, but his definition of
trauma has is is kind oftwo-sided.
It's anything that sabotages ourability to develop our emotional

(08:40):
capacity.

SPEAKER_00 (08:42):
Yeah, I wanted to bring that out just because a
lot of our listeners might belike, yeah, I hear that word a
lot.
Aren't we just kind ofover-psychological
psychologizing everything?
But but I love the way that youguys are defining that pretty
technically, like when you don'tactually have the capacity, when
you get that overwhelm, or whenyou haven't developed that.
So, listeners, consider that.
Consider are there traumas inyour life related to either the

(09:06):
lack, those those type A absencetraumas, or the bad things that
have happened.
And uh, so we're gonna get intothat a little bit more as we go
through each chapter.
But let's go back.
By the way, this book is little,it's only like 84 pages, but I
found myself underlining like aquarter of it because it's so
dense.
And and this is gonna be a denseepisode.

(09:26):
So hang in there.
You can always re-listen, butalso get this book, Marcus.
I think you've primarily writtenit toward men, but I think it
would also apply to our ourfemale listeners who who are
struggling as well withpornography or other things.
Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 (09:40):
Yeah, my target audience here was some men that
I knew that I wanted to writesomething helpful for them.
But yeah, so it's written withthat slant to it, but it applies
to a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 (09:49):
Yeah, the principles are going to be really relevant.
So let's go back to this one ofthe first one, B, build
community.
So I want to highlight this.
And on page 30, you kind of talkabout how most of us wait for
leaders, whether pastors orministry leaders or other
leaders in our community tobuild community for us.
But you highlight this idea ofwe're actually responsible for

(10:09):
building community.
Can you talk a little more aboutthat?

SPEAKER_01 (10:11):
Yeah, this kind of gets back to that a trauma idea
that is some people, everywherethey go, they build a network of
friends and they build a networkof people around them everywhere
they go, and they just have thatability.
But it's a set of skills thatthey have actually learned over
time.
And then there's other peopleand they go someplace and they

(10:32):
just waiting for somebody toreach out to them, and they're
waiting for somebody to invitethem into the community, and
they don't know how to build itfor themselves.
And so partly what I'm trying tosay is here is that there are a
set of skills that you can learnthat help you begin to grow
community wherever you go anddevelop this wherever you are,
and that there is a skill setthat goes to it that somebody

(10:55):
can learn and can master.
And one of the things that helpsme think about it is the idea of
having three people upstreamfrom you, but also three people
downstream.
And that is three people who arepouring into you, but three
people you're pouring into them.
And as we all know, I you oftenlearn more by the people you're
trying to help than that justfrom the people that are coming

(11:15):
with you.
But your your community isn'tlike I'm the weak person and I
need to be around a bunch ofstrong people, or it can't be
like what I call the ghettomindset that says we just got to
get all the weak people togetherand uh and isolate them.
And and because as we all know,we're strong in some parts of
our lives and we have weaknessin other parts of our lives.
It's like nobody is just weakand nobody is just strong.

(11:36):
We have a and so we have thereare just it's the area of life
in which I am struggling, notthe totality of my life.
So yes, you're right.
Building community is a are issomething that we all need to
get better at and not just waiton somebody else to do for us.

SPEAKER_00 (11:52):
It's a beautiful invitation.
I know that that's uh we oftenmight say, well, I'm just an
introvert, or those extrovertsare great at this, but actually
you're saying no, for all of us,this is a skill we can develop.
Similarly, and this is gonna bereally crucial for those who are
looking to recover from sexualstruggles.
You highlight the idea ofaccountability versus belonging.
You say this on page 33.

(12:13):
The key to transformation is notaccountability but belonging.
That's gonna be a shock to someof our listeners.
What do you mean by that?
Isn't accountability like allthat really matters in this
journey?

SPEAKER_01 (12:24):
Yeah, well, what I've found is that most of the
people who are making progressare in accountability groups.
But what's going on in thosegroups is not accountability.
What's going on in those groupsis belonging.
What's happening is you arefinding a people that you say, I
have found my people.
I feel seen, I feel understood,I feel connected.

(12:44):
And the reality is whether theyasked you or not, whether they
ask you the accountabilityquestions or not, there's going
to be growth there just from thebelonging that you're beginning
to experience.
And so belonging kind of, andthe idea here is this is like I
will run through a brick wallfor people I care about, right?
I am going what's really goingto motivate me to kick this is
that I don't want to disappointmy people.

(13:06):
That's going to be far morepowerful in the transformation
than knowing that somebody'sgoing to ask me whether or not I
failed this week.
Because what that tends to do isit makes fear and shame the
foundation, and it can actuallydrive people away.
Like I failed once too often, Ifeel shame once too often, I'm
out of here.
Whereas belonging never getsold.

SPEAKER_00 (13:26):
Wow.
And there's something here aboutlike your group is modeling
belonging that also can be someof how you learn belonging with
God.
Like that same feeling of Idon't want to disappoint my
beloved, my my Lord Jesus.
Like that is almost those dotsare almost connected through
people, right?
Like through the people in yourcommunity, they're helping maybe

(13:48):
develop that skill.

SPEAKER_01 (13:50):
Absolutely.
And relational skills arerelational skills.
And my relation, if I the betterI get at relational skills, the
more it's going to help myrelationship with God as well as
my relationship with otherpeople.
And so what I found is that alot of times what we call
introverted is actually a lackof relational skills.
But there's also, I would say,that introverted and extroverted

(14:13):
are real things and that they gointo how we're motivated in the
relationships that we build, notwhether or not we need
relationships.
So, for example, introverts tendto want a few strong
relationships and they like tointeract with people one to
three people at a time.

(14:34):
Whereas extroverts are like themore the merrier, man.
Let's have a party, let's get100 people there.
This is going to be great.
They feed off of the energy.
But extroverts can be verylonely because they're always
surrounded by people, but theydon't have anybody they're
really deeply bonded to.

SPEAKER_00 (14:47):
And introverts can some they can lack the they can
have the same lack of relationalskills.

SPEAKER_01 (14:52):
Exactly.
They can have the same lack ofrelational skills.
So I'm not saying thatintroversion introverts do lack
relational skills.
I'm saying sometimes it'sconfused for that.
Yeah.
That what's actually going on,but that both introverts and
extroverts are equally motivatedby relationship, they just go
about it differently.

SPEAKER_00 (15:08):
That is so powerful.
Thank you for unpacking that.
Let's go on, though.
There's so much to cover.
Act like yourself.
This one is super, superpowerful.
In your book, Rear Leadership,you talk about triggers and
masks, and we don't have time tofully unpack all of that.
But I'm really curious aboutthis.
On page 42, you say the NewTestament said only refers to
Christians as sinners, liketwice, and even those two are

(15:32):
debatable.
Is that true?
Like, don't aren't aren't wekind of yeah.
How do you how do you view uswhen it comes to being sinners,
you know, or not?

SPEAKER_01 (15:39):
Well, you know, the most common term for Christians
in the New Testament, used over80 times, right, is some form of
the Greek word hagias.
And hagias is the word for holy.
And so it's like you holy ones,you saints, you sanctified ones,
you know, you who have beensanctified, right?
So the descriptors are almostall around that.

(16:01):
So we need to understand whatthat means?
What does it mean to be holy?
It helps me to think of it interms of sacred space, and what
I mean by that is like in theold testament, if you wanted to
be where God was, you needed togo someplace.
Like, let's go to the temple,let's go to the tabernacle,
that's where we're gonna meetGod.
Well, where do you go to meetwith God now?

(16:22):
Well, you're the temple, right?
You've become the temple of God,and that means I go to meet with
God in, you know, and he'sinside of me, and I can connect
with him anytime that I want tobecause I have become the sacred
space in which in which theliving God dwells.
So that's a pretty remarkable,profound thing.
And so the idea is that I'm nowbelong to God.

(16:42):
The other way of looking at itis that my identity comes from
who I belong to, and so myidentity comes from my people,
these are the people I belongto, but it also comes from my
belonging with God.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (16:55):
So many of us were kind of modeled like if we sin,
if we mess up, if we fall short,the relationship is seriously
harmed.
Like our parents might haveshamed us or pulled away from
us, or peers might have donethat, or whatever.
And you're you're you're makingthe point that there's something
deeper happening here in lightof what Jesus did on the cross,
like there's no way God's notdoing that, He's not behaving

(17:18):
that way toward us.

SPEAKER_01 (17:19):
No, not at all.
I was taught, you know, that sinseparates us from God, that it
causes a break in fellowship, isusually the way it was
described.
And the image in my head as akid being taught that was that
God turns his back on me until Iclean myself up.
Yeah, and then as soon as Iclean myself up, then God will
be happy to see me again.
But that there is this window oftime where God wants nothing to

(17:42):
do with me, right?
And that's just couldn't be morewrong.
God knows that you need him morein those horrible moments than
you do when you are strong andeverything is going well, and so
he wants to be invited inimmediately and said, I'm not
turning my back on you there.
It's like, let's let's let'slook at this together, let's

(18:02):
deal with this together, bringthis big thing to me, and let's
stay relationally connected aswe go through it.
It's a very different picturethan what a lot of us were
taught.

SPEAKER_00 (18:11):
One of our one of our groups is called Awaken 360,
and one of our former volunteerleaders would say, Bring God
with you into temptation, bringhim with you when you start
looking up images, which soundscrazy, and maybe we I need to
pause on that for a second, butthen also come right back to
like the point is he's notactually leaving us when we're
giving into stuff, and the morewe can invite him in, be

(18:34):
relational with him, it changesour posture, like it changes our
perspective.

SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
Right?
It's like he never leaves us, henever actually turns his back on
us and walks away.
He is always there, he is alwaysengaged.
It's whether or not we and I'llput it this way the more you can
stay in the relational part ofyour brain, and the more that
you can stay in the relationalin relationship with God, the

(18:59):
more strength you will have toresist temptation, the less
relational you are.
Because when you do pornography,you actually go into the
non-relational part of yourbrain.
You are not craving arelationship with this person,
you're craving sex with thisperson.
It's a very different thing,right?
So you're crave a uh now theremay be relational elements and
fantasies, but I'm saying isthat that by and large, we're

(19:22):
not really looking for a maturerelationship.

SPEAKER_00 (19:26):
Yeah.
We're not looking for truesatisfying joy, which we'll come
back around to in a moment, butwe're we're we're trying to
fulfill kind of a more temporaryform of satisfaction, almost
like a pseudo-relationality, apseudo-joy.

SPEAKER_01 (19:41):
Good word for it.
It's a pseudo-relationship.

SPEAKER_00 (19:43):
One of the things that is key in this chapter of
acting like yourself is becominga protector.
And I found this so powerful andbeautiful, both in this book and
in rare leadership and otherplace of overlap.
You talk about we're not gonnabe able to unpack this a ton,
but you talk about possums.
What is it?
Possums, yeah, predators andprotectors.
Predators and protectors, yeah.
So a lot of us kind of have thatpossum posture where we shrink

(20:07):
back.
When we're giving intopornography or other sexual
struggles, we're often givinginto a predator posture or kind
of identity, so to speak.
Like it's like me to use someonefor my satisfaction.
That's what a predator is kindof going through or dealing
with.
But you're saying let's actuallyact like our true selves in
Christ, which is to protect.
Can you unpack that just a tinybit?

SPEAKER_01 (20:28):
Yeah.
So the Daryl Brazzell uhintroduced this concept to me
and pointed it out.
And in Timothy, Paul writes,treat younger women like
daughters, you know, other womenlike sisters, older women like
mothers.
Well, what are daughters,sisters, and mothers?
They are categories ofprotection.
And for most of us, right, thereare exceptions, but for most of

(20:50):
us, we would never dream ofdoing this to our mothers.
We would never dream of doingthis to our sisters or our
daughters, right?
It's because those arecategories of protection.
And so part of what he's sayingis see yourself as the sort of
person it's like me to be aprotector of these people and to
not take advantage of them.
And I remember, like, I met witha young lady who was traumatized

(21:11):
by her grandfather in a sexualway.
And one of the things help herunderstand look, there are
grandfathers that you couldliterally offer yourself to them
and they would not takeadvantage of you because they
are protectors.
Yeah, and that's what themindset is like somebody could
offer yourself to them, andyou're like, no, no, no, that is
not like me to do that.
That's not who I am, and that'swho we want to be, that's the

(21:33):
identity we want to reinforce.
What possums do possums tend tolook at pornography as I am the
weak person, you are the strongperson, heal me, fix me, give me
what I'm lacking.
Predators go into pornography,and that is, oh, that looks
tasty.
I want some of that, right?
And so there's a two differentthings going on there.

(21:54):
Sometimes we have both of themgoing on at the same time.
But some of us lean onedirection or the other more than
the other.

SPEAKER_00 (22:01):
Yeah.
And you say in rare leadershipthat to notice weakness, like to
notice a vulnerable person, doesnot actually mean that you are
giving into being a predatorbecause both the greatest saints
and greatest sinners noticeweakness, but the greatest
saints are the ones who come inand protect that person, the
weakness, the predators are theones who come in and take
advantage there.

(22:21):
So it's not I I just felt thatit was so freeing for those who
are struggling with like, okay,I notice this attractive person.
They seem to be interested, orI'm I'm wanting them to be
interested.
To notice is not necessarilywhat's wrong, it's what you're
doing with it, how you'reviewing them, or are you praying
for them?
You know, that kind of posture,posturing.
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (22:41):
And so you do, and you realize that I mean you said
that that well, and that is thatI look at it as two different
locker rooms, right?
It's like if you got a rotlocker room run by bullies, what
happens to weakness, right?
It gets pounced on.
If you got a locker room run bymature people, what happens to
weakness?
They get helped, they getprotected.

(23:02):
And that's what we're saying.
We don't want to be the bullies,we want to be the protectors.
That's kind of what we'regetting at.

SPEAKER_00 (23:08):
What a picture of of Jesus, too.
Like the way he the thevulnerable, the the possums in
society came to him and and hecalled out the prote the the
predators, the the religiouspredators, especially.
And so so beautiful.
Let's move on to the first T,tackle the roots.

SPEAKER_02 (23:25):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (23:27):
This is this is so important.
I think besides maturity, if wewant to think of these as two
categories, I've heard you talkabout it this way.
Besides maturity, healing, whichobviously they're very
interconnected, but outside ofmaturity, healing is the most
important thing we can do toovercome struggles.
So you say this on page 60.
A stronghold is simply an areawhich you are not free to be

(23:48):
yourself.
Again, think back to what wewere just talking about, acting
like the saint that God says weare if we're in Christ.
A stronghold is an area whereyou're not free to be yourself.
So you give a this is one ofthose places we'll introduce a
cross stick of wolves, W L V S,wounds, lies, vows, strongholds.
Can you just give a little bitof a picture of like how we end

(24:08):
up in these places ofstrongholds where we can't act
like ourselves?

SPEAKER_01 (24:12):
Yeah.
So I say the world wounds us,the devil lies to us, and our
flesh makes vows.
And the fruit of all that isstronghold in our life.
So the world wounds us.
So for example, right, I wasintroduced to pornography as a
seven-year-old, right?
And all of a sudden, it's likethis traumatic thing happens to
me in my life.

(24:33):
Now, that wound has happened.
The devil will take advantage ofthat and he will plant seeds in
the wounded place in my heart.
And those seeds will be lies,and there'll be things like,
you're a pervert, you're nogood, you're dirty.
If anybody knew what you werereally like, they wouldn't want
to be around you.
You know, God is disappointedwith you.
You're gonna have to really, youknow, be super Christian now for

(24:56):
God to accept you.
In other words, all kinds oflies.
That's what the devil does.
He starts planting these seedsin that, and it's not that I I
believe those things while I'min the moment, but they begin to
feel true afterwards because ofwhat has happened.
They take root, yeah, they takeroot, and so then my flesh gets
involved, and my flesh makes avow.
And my vow is an I willstatement.

(25:18):
And an I will statement is Iwill never let myself fall in
this area again.
I am going to, you know, beatthis, or I will hide this from
everybody.
Nobody will know.
I'm gonna keep this secret, or Iwill.
It's an I will statement of howmy flesh is gonna take control
of the situation so that I cannow manage this and be in
control of it.
And because it's my flesh makingthe vow, it doesn't trust God.

(25:41):
And it doesn't trust God to getme out of this, it doesn't trust
God to be with me in this.
It's it's uh it's a flesh vowthat's of how I'm gonna take
control of this situation, andit can again and again swing to
opposite extremes.
And that is, I can just vow I'mnever gonna do it and then beat
myself up relentlessly if I everdo, or I can swing the other way
and vow that I'm gonna hide thisand seal it off so that never

(26:04):
finds out.
There's different kinds of vows,but the implication is all of
these things work together tocreate slavery in my life, and
that's what stronghold is.
It is an area of slavery in mylife where I am not free to act
like myself and not live out ofthe true heart that God has
given me.

SPEAKER_00 (26:21):
One of the ways I think we talk about lies is
you've probably heard this termunholy agreements.
So we talk about unholyagreements and unholy vows as
kind of the lies and and thevows section.
And so we're agreeing, we oftenare ending up agreeing with
these lies unless we've had sucha robust place of like, oh, I'm
a seven-year-old, but I can goto my parents.
Or I'm, let's just say you wereexposed at age 20, which would

(26:44):
be pretty miraculous in ourculture, but I'm now mature
enough where I can say this isnot who I'm gonna be.
So you talk about how thespirit's also trying to or is
planting seeds, but we often letthe lies and vows take root, in
part because so many childrenare being exposed.
Children don't have, bydefinition, the maturity to know
exactly what to do with such anoverwhelming traumatic event.

SPEAKER_01 (27:07):
Exactly.
And the last statistics I sawwere that seven to nine is the
average age of exposure.
And by age 10 or 11, majority ofchildren have watched video
porn, and it's justmind-boggling.
I mean, they're still a coupleof years from puberty in most
cases, and it's alreadyestablished.
We have what I call pornsaturated society.

(27:29):
You know, when I was a kid, youhad to go look for porn, now it
comes looking for you.
Absolutely, it's just a verydifferent world in which we
live, and uh and it makes it allthe more important to not be
alone in the journey.

SPEAKER_00 (27:44):
Yeah, yeah, because if you had that relational
capital with God and withothers, the the wounds don't
have to become traumas.
Like if we had that relationalconnection, we're not
necessarily being overwhelmed.
Yeah, we're not lacking what weneeded in that.

SPEAKER_01 (27:57):
And I think I tell the story in the book that you
know, meeting with a guy whocame to me as a pat when I was
pastoring about his pornaddiction.
And it basically started withsexual trauma when he was 12
years old, right?
As he was entering puberty andhe was traumatized by at a
church camp of all places,right?
And so God met him in thatmemory, did something to heal

(28:20):
that memory.
And what that does is itresolves the memory, but it
doesn't give you instantmaturity.
And this is one of the things wehave to understand is that
healing experiences, belonging,belonging doesn't give you
instant maturity, healingdoesn't give you instant
maturity, nothing gives youinstant maturity.
You can't just choose instantmaturity.
All right, it you got to thinkof maturity as like lifting

(28:43):
weights and working out.
It's just it's it's the habitsthat you build that over time
create results.
And that's kind of what we'reafter on the maturity point.

SPEAKER_00 (28:52):
Yeah.
So I hope that if you're aspouse of someone who is dealing
with sexual sin, recognize arethere strongholds that that are
there places of maturity gapsthat might actually bring a
deeper level of compassion?
Obviously, they still need toget after what they're dealing
with and plug into a communityand and pursue healing and
maturity.
But I hope that gives a littlebit of perspective for a spouse

(29:15):
who's like, why did why why doesmy husband or wife keep going
back to this behavior?
What about for parents, Marcus?
Because that you were justdescribing a few, you know,
really yeah, traumatic thingsthat can happen in childhood.
How would you speak to parentsabout like, oh shoot, I didn't
maybe realize my nine-year-oldmight have been exposed by now?
Like, and perhaps there's awound or you know, that this

(29:36):
wolves pattern has begun todevelop.
What do you say to parents?

SPEAKER_01 (29:39):
Yeah, there's a couple of things.
One is you want to let sure makesure that the kids know that you
are happy to be with them andthat you are happy to go through
this with them and that they arenot alone.
That's the main thing.
You want to stay relationallyengaged with them as they
process through it.
You don't have to fix it.
Um, you just want To but you'regoing to stay relationally

(30:01):
engaged with them as they gothrough their their journey.
The other thing is that it's agood idea to pray, ask them if
they're open to praying aboutit.
And if they are open to prayingabout it, then you can do some
of the some things to inviteJesus into some of these
traumatic moments and see ifthey can receive some healing.
But I seen a lot of parents dothat.

(30:22):
And it's like, would you like toask Jesus for help with this?
And I'll stay present with youwhile we do it.
And and uh what we're doingthere is we're just having the
child say, Jesus, that you knowwhat happened, you saw where
would you show me where youwere, and would you do something
to make this better?
And then you have them payattention.
Does anything change after youpray that prayer or take a look?

(30:42):
You know, what does your memorychange in any way?
Is there anything new thoughtsthat you have?
What is it you feel like Jesuswants you to know?
And so we talk about how to dothat.
I call it the real prayerprocess because it's a four-step
process that we've outlined.
It's the chapter on tackling theroots.

SPEAKER_00 (30:59):
Yeah, so great resource here, and what a
beautiful opportunity asparents.
I love that first word you saidstay relationally engaged.
This is not like I just need toget this out ASAP.
Of course, we don't want ourchildren giving in and being
controlled by these types ofbehaviors, but staying
relational is so such aprecursor to being able to see

(31:21):
deeper workouts.

SPEAKER_01 (31:23):
Yeah, I've been in a in a couple of groups of women,
you know, whose husbands arerecovering from this.
And I one of the things Inoticed was there's a lot of
talk of betrayal.
And I just want to say this thaton the identity thing for women,
what they have to avoid istaking on the identity as
someone who has been betrayed.
There's a difference betweenhaving been betrayed and dealing

(31:44):
with that as a wound and takingthat on as an identity.
And I just say that I justcaution that we don't want to
take on that identity.
You want to deal with that as awound in all the ways that you
would normally deal with awound, which includes
forgiveness and healing andwarfare and you know yeah, some
of what we're getting afterhere.

SPEAKER_00 (32:02):
Yeah, all the other stuff and being super
relationally supportive, butthat's such an important word
because the field now doesprimarily talk about what
happens to a spouse who's beenbetrayed as betrayal trauma, and
that is part of what is likelyhappening.
If your system's overwhelmed byfinding out that is what has
happened, betrayal has happened.

SPEAKER_01 (32:20):
I'm saying let's but yeah, but let's not have the
identity.

SPEAKER_00 (32:24):
Exactly.
That's beautiful.
So the second T is take down theenemy.
Just one major thing I want tohone in on here.
You talk about permission andauthority.
And so for some of ourlisteners, we obviously do talk
about spiritual warfare andbeing led by the spirit here at
regen a lot, but many of them,many of our listeners and and
and people who come to ourministry come from backgrounds

(32:44):
that might not be as acquaintedwith spiritual warfare.
And I just thought what yousaid, let's see, it's on page 67
about permission, like about thefall giving permission.
God is still sovereign.
Let me just read this on page67.
God is sovereign.
This means that demons can onlydo what they have permission to
do because of the fall.
They have permission to roam theearth and create problems for

(33:07):
people.
However, they can only claim aplace in your life if you give
them permission to be there.
We give permission by enteringinto agreements with them, like
kind of believing their lies,like we just spoke about.
And this mostly most commonlyhappens, believing their lies,
engaging in sinful practices,and refusing to forgive others.
So can you talk to those whomight be a little bit less
familiar with, hey, there mightbe a spiritual component.

(33:29):
In fact, if we read scriptureand take it seriously, there
probably is a spiritualcomponent, at least as a piece
of the puzzle, not necessarilythe whole thing, but what what
do you say to them aboutpermission and authority when it
comes to habitual sexualstruggles?

SPEAKER_01 (33:42):
Yeah, I take a legal approach to spiritual warfare,
and that is legally, you know,I'm asking the question if if a
if a demon is harassing,tormenting, doing something,
why?
What is giving them permissionto do this?
And there's only three answers,right?
It's either God, for whateverreason, has just said, I'm going

(34:02):
to give you permission to dothis, like he did with Job.
Or the answer is, I have donesomething to open up a door.
Or the third answer is there'ssomething in my environment that
is allowing this to happen.
And so, for example, I knowpeople who go to hotel rooms and
they struggle with pornographymore in hotel rooms than
anywhere else.
Well, why?

(34:23):
It's because there's been somuch pornographic sin in hotel
rooms that there are spiritsthat have access there.
And so, one of the things I doevery time I go to a hotel is
just say, in the name of Jesus,I cleanse this place and command
anything that's spiritual to getout of here.
I've had people say the samething about going into
bookstores, going into you know,places where they sell magazines

(34:43):
and airports and whatever.
And you just kind of learn thereare some places where demons
like to hang out because they'vebeen given so much permission to
be there through time.
And so, what we do is in our ownlives, go, have I done, have I
given permission?
And I want to keep shortaccounts on that.
So as soon as I fall, I'm like,God, I confess that I did this.
I I ask you to cancel anypermission this is given.

(35:06):
And in Jesus' name, I commandthe demons that leave and take
their works and effects withthem.
You know, get out of here, gowhere Jesus sends you, kind of
thing.
And deal with it quickly.
Like, spiritual warfare doesn'thave to be a long, drawn-out,
six-hour process, right?
It can be a 30-second prayersometimes, but it's things that
we have to deal with.

SPEAKER_00 (35:24):
And our founder would say, Alan Mediger would
say, there's no harm in castingaway a demon if it wasn't there.
In fact, it it you might justfeel a little silly in your own
heart, but like if if it's notactually your flesh leading to
the temptation, there very wellcould be something where, or at
least the enemy might even bejust encouraging it or inflaming
it, right?
And so I I can't tell you theamount of times I've prayed that

(35:47):
Marcus, that 10-second prayer.
If there's any unclean spiritsimpacting me, be gone in Jesus'
name, whatever it is, and howsometimes that shifts the
atmosphere, sometimesdramatically, sometimes just a
little bit, sometimes maybe notat all, but there's no harm in
it.

SPEAKER_01 (36:00):
And I'll say too, this guy of the people that I've
worked with in my life, the thetwo who had the deepest
addiction were women, and theytheir addictions were in a lot
of sexual trauma in their lives,yeah.
And there did come a point atbattle after battle after battle
where Jesus kind of said, Allright, this is done.
We have, you know, this is done.

(36:22):
It took a few years for most ofboth of them, but it's different
for everybody because it kind ofdepends on where you're at with
your capacity when you begin.
But I was just pointing, my justpointing out that there's a very
real element to this.
What the myth about it is thatall I got to do is cast out the
demon of pornography and myproblems are over.
And I've never found that to bethe case.

(36:43):
But getting rid of anythingdemonic makes doing all the
other work easier.

SPEAKER_00 (36:48):
Mm-hmm.
All right, we have two more, andI'm I'm conscious of time, so
we're gonna try to moverelatively quickly, especially
through this next one.
Live by the spirit.
I love how you said earlier thatgrowing in our relationship with
God, learning to abide or walkin the spirit.
There's so many differentmetaphors in scripture for
walking in close relationshipwith God and intimacy, yada in
in Hebrew.
I'm probably saying that wrong.

(37:08):
You would you would know better,but but living by the spirit,
okay, awesome.
Well, that that's that's whatyour doctorate's in, right?
You got the you studied OldTestament, so that's awesome.
But I love how you say in thischapter that repentance is
changing the way we look atthings.
And so, how do we get that Godmindset, Marcus?
Like, how do we over timedevelop more of that almost like
a repentant posture instead ofit just being like a I said

(37:31):
sorry for this?
There's something higher you'recalling us to, I think, with
with the word repentance.

SPEAKER_01 (37:37):
Yeah, the idea of repentance comes from again that
Greek meta to change and noiamind, right?
So the the it built into theroot of the word is this idea of
changing how I think aboutthings.
So when Jesus came and saidrepent for the kingdom of heaven
is hand, he meant stop thinkinglike a worldly person and start
thinking like a kingdom person.
Like get your values lined upwith the kingdom of God and get

(38:00):
your values out from beingdriven by the world.
That's the core of repentance.
How do I how do I move my valuesystem to being that of the
kingdom?
Now, beliefs and emotions are atwo-way street.
And what I find is that what Ibelieve will drive emotions, but

(38:21):
also what I feel will drive whatI believe.
And so there are six primarynegative emotions that I think
we all have to kind of come togrips with in this arrangement
is shame and anger and fear,disgust, despair, and sadness.
And what happens, and I'm sorryto bring up such a big topic

(38:41):
with little time left, butthat's all right.
For a lot of us, what happens iswe need to learn how to do to
stay relational with God andwith other people in all six of
these emotions.
And for for each of us, whattends to happen is there are a
couple of emotions that just getus every time.
Like when we feel shame, it'sover.
We have no capacity to handleshame, or when I feel anger,

(39:04):
it's over.
I have no capacity to handleanger, and different people,
it's different emotions.
So, one of the things you wantto do is identify which emotions
tend to be your downfall, whichemotions tend to overwhelm you,
and um let's work on aconnection with God in that
emotion by inviting him into it.
And so, you know, before I feelthe emotion, what do you want me

(39:26):
to know about this?
How do you want me to thinkabout that emotion?
And then when I'm having theemotion, saying, Jesus, I don't
want to leave you out of this, Idon't want to go and
self-medicate again.
I want to, uh I want to inviteyou into this.
So part of living by the spiritis learning to invite Jesus into
the hard parts of our lives.
But then when we're not in thosehard parts, we're practicing

(39:48):
inviting him into everythingelse.

SPEAKER_00 (39:50):
Well, and that's that's a perfect segue into the
the E, expanding your maturity,part of maturity, part of being
an adult parent or elder, whichare those latter three stages of
maturity, first to our infantand child.
We'll come back to those in asecond.
But part of being an adult, youyou guys talk about is being
able to return to joy when youdo feel shame or anger or

(40:11):
sadness or despair.
And then even further, I think,is like you just said, being
able to be sad and still be injoy, being able to feel shame
and still be glad to be withpeople, which is how you and Dr.
Wilder define joy, that sense ofrelational connection, right?
So the goal, part of the goalhere that I understand is

(40:32):
instead of taking our anger orshame, two of the biggest
emotions we take to pornographyor fear, which was a huge one
for me, instead of taking thoseto pornography, which is not a
savior that can actually bringany redemption in your life,
learning and growing in maturityto take it to God more
effectively, to bring in othersmore effectively.
Anything else you want to sayabout that?

SPEAKER_01 (40:53):
It's a good way to put it.
You know, the the statement thatyou know Dr.
Wilder made that first kind ofhe likes to make these shocking
statements to get you to thinkthe first the it was that
addiction is the result of acatastrophic failure to attain
maturity.

SPEAKER_00 (41:10):
I have that quote right here.
I was gonna bring that up.
That is so powerful.
Addiction, can I just say itagain?
Yeah, addiction is the result ofa catastrophic failure to attain
maturity.

SPEAKER_01 (41:20):
So at first I feel shame when I hear that.
Like, oh, you know, yeah, I havea catastrophic failure in my
life, but then you understandthat what's under that
catastrophic failure isunresolved trauma.
I haven't resolved the badtrauma that's happened to me,
and I'm I haven't yet developedthe skills that I missed because
of the a trauma and the absenceof the good things that I need.

(41:44):
And so what happens is thatuntil those two things happen,
right?
Until there is resolution forthe bad things that have
happened in my life, and until Ibuild the skills that I missed
out on, I'm going to stayimmature.
That's how you grow maturity, isthrough heat emotional healing
and through the development ofnew habits.

SPEAKER_02 (42:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (42:04):
So those two things work work hand in hand.
And as we all know, the best wayto build a new habit is in
community with other people andnot just through sure willpower.

SPEAKER_00 (42:13):
Especially as Dr.
Waller would say, when thatperson, when people in that
community have strengths inthose areas.
That's actually something I wascurious about, Marcus, as I've
read several of these differentways you guys have talked about
developing maturity.
I don't know if I've explicitlyheard it said that we could be
an adult, I'm I don't have kids,so I could be an adult level
maturity in certain areas oflife, but perhaps not in others.

(42:35):
Is that is that a correct way tothink about it?

SPEAKER_01 (42:37):
It is a correct way to think about it.
So, for example, there issomething that is called upside
down maturity, and upside downmaturity happens when a child is
forced to be the parent in thehome, and so like mom is strung
out on drugs and dad is off atwork, and the one of the
children steps up and kind ofbecomes the parent and parents

(43:00):
to parents as well as parentingthe other kids.
Yeah, and so they look supermature, and they developed a lot
of skills that a lot of otherpeople don't have, but they have
upside down maturity, and thatis that they have one layer of
skills that are well developed,but at the emotional relational
area, they're a they don't knowhow to take care of themselves,

(43:20):
and so that's what now thatMarcus is done reading my
journal.

SPEAKER_00 (43:24):
No, but many of us have experienced that because we
look we look mature, but part ofhow I looked mature, Marcus, was
I went to pornography as myplace to take all my emotions,
so I might have looked like Ihad it together on the outside,
but but I was still going tothis place with with my
maturity.

SPEAKER_01 (43:41):
I came to the conclusion, you said it well, it
can't save us.
And that is I look atpornography as a form of
idolatry.
And in specifically in OldTestament terms, it's like
Asherah, you know, the goddessAsherah.
And that I almost have to think,am I gonna take this emotion
that I'm feeling and thisproblem that I have?
Am I gonna take it to Yahweh oram I gonna take it to Asherah?

(44:03):
Wow.
And it's it's really thatdistinct.
It's like, who do I think isgoing to save me?
Who do I think is gonna offer methe most help right now?
Is it Yahweh or is it Asherah?
And when you put it in thoseterms, it gets a little clearer
that you know what it does workat some level, or we wouldn't

(44:24):
keep doing it.
It's just that it creates moreproblems than it solves.

SPEAKER_00 (44:30):
Well, I I want to spend so much more time pressing
into maturity, but friends,you're just gonna have to buy
Marcus's book because this fivestages of maturity that he talks
about here in Slaying theMonster, him and Jim Wilder talk
about in Rare Leadership.
And then Jim actually now has anupdated three-part book series.
It used to be called Living withMen, and now it's building a
more human community, I believe.

(44:51):
And he literally breaks down thefive stages in in a lot more
detail than what we barelyscratched the surface today.
So, this is such a great conceptfor you who are struggling, you
who are navigating betrayal orparenting.
Like God actually wants to fillin these areas.
He wants to develop a bettergrace foundation that you didn't
get as an infant.
I love that term.

(45:11):
I'm pulling that right from yourbook.
He wants to develop wisdom inthe child.
He he wants you to be yourselfin groups, and there's so much
that he wants to do and go backand do with you in these stages
of maturity.
So, yeah, we do have to closeout.
Um, Marcus, I want to give youthe last word in just a moment
if there's any kind of closingthoughts and then just briefly
praying over us.
But I just want to first mentionthat we do have our upcoming

(45:34):
retreats for women, so sacred bydesign retreat, and and we have
upcoming groups for women, bothwomen who have experienced
betrayal trauma and women whoare dealing with unwanted sexual
behavior.
The retreat is for both.
That's on November 7th.
And then we have a wives growthgroup starting November 11th for
wives who've experiencedbetrayal trauma.
And then we have strong likewater for women dealing with

(45:55):
unwanted sexual behavior,kicking off November 10th.
So if you're a woman dealingwith either of those challenges
and wanting to grow in youridentity and in community and in
healing, these are greatopportunities.
I heard last year's retreat wasso beautiful and powerful.
So please consider those.
But Marcus, any anything youwant to say is kind of the last
word here?

SPEAKER_01 (46:15):
Sure.
I heard Dr.
Waldo say one time the onlything that we really fear is an
emotion that we can't handle.
And what happens is mostaddiction gets triggered by
emotions we can't handle.
And then we develop an avoidantlifestyle because we're afraid
of certain emotions in ourlives.
So the more that we can do tolearn how to face those emotions

(46:37):
and invite Jesus into thoseemotions, that's probably the
most certain path to maturitydevelopment and to overcoming
addictions, is identifying theemotions that overwhelm you and
facing them with Jesus' help andwith the help of people that
love you.

SPEAKER_00 (46:56):
And is there any, is there any, besides getting the
Slaying the Monster book,anything else related to these
topics that you'd want tomention that you guys offer?

SPEAKER_01 (47:04):
Yeah, ddboard.com is our website, and we have a ton
of resources.
A bunch of them are free.
And but we also have things youcan buy, like we have a freedom
course uh that you can purchasethat'll go through 10 lessons
with three hours of videos and alot of worksheets and things
like that that'll walk youthrough a lot of the freedom
issues.
Then we have an identity coursethat you can take.

(47:25):
We've got a new course comingout next month on walking in the
spirit, you know, and how you dothese things.
So if you're looking for moretraining and deeper training on
some of this stuff, deeper walkprobably has it.

SPEAKER_00 (47:35):
And I I by the way, I listen every week to your on
the trail podcast.
Fantastic.
You and your daughter, and justyou guys unpack a lot.
And and I get to listen everyMonday when I'm when I'm at the
gym.
So highly commend the DeeperWalk on the Trail podcast.
But yeah, Marcus, would you justwould you pray for for our
listeners?

SPEAKER_01 (47:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
Father, we come to you becauseyou know, the apostle John told
us God is love.
And we come to the most lovingperson that we know to bring all
of our cares, all of ourconcerns, all of our worries and
fears, all of our shame, all ofour hopes and aspirations.
We just bring it all to you.
We lay it at your feet.

(48:13):
We ask you for your shalom anduh for an increased dose of
wisdom and for victory in thebattles that we face.
In Christ's name.
Amen.
Amen.