October 7, 2025 • 42 mins
Do your desires feel like enemies to be conquered, or could they actually be signposts pointing toward your truest fulfillment? In this conversation with Christopher West, we discuss how our hungers—even our unwanted sexual behaviors—reveal something beautiful about our design.
Christopher shares his journey from the "starvation diet gospel" of his Catholic upbringing through the "fast food gospel" of cultural gratification to discovering what our souls truly crave. His insights on John Paul II's Theology of the Body offer a radical reframing: we're not just called away from sexual sin but toward glorifying God in our bodies.
Whether you're struggling with unwanted behaviors or simply wondering why your faith hasn't eliminated your deepest longings, this episode offers a life-changing perspective. Your hunger isn't your enemy—it's your heart's compass pointing home.
Listen in and discover how to transform your yearnings into prayer and your dissatisfactions into signposts toward genuine fulfillment.
Resources from this episode
Theology of the Body Institute:
The Ask Christopher West podcast:
Our Bodies Tell God's Story by Christopher West:
Peter Gabriel's "Blood of Eden": YouTube or Spotify
Florence and the Machine: "Hunger": YouTube or Spotify
An Invitation for our annual women's retreat.
Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole:
- Email us questions! info@regenerationministries.org
👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everybody, welcome back.
I'm eager to get into today'sepisode for multiple reasons.
Before I tell you why, let metell you what we're going to be
talking about.
We are going to be talkingabout what we're doing all this,
for so a lot of times peoplecome to our ministry they're
wrestling with some type ofunwanted sexual behavior, and
that's what they're aware of.
I want to get away from this.
(00:21):
I want to stop doing this,whatever this is for them.
But we're not just called awayfrom something, we're called to
something.
And Paul gets after this alittle bit in 1 Corinthians 6,
when he says in 1 Corinthians 6,18, he says flee sexual
immorality.
All other sins a person commitsare outside the body, but the
person who sins sexually sinsagainst the body.
And then he goes on to say foryou are not your own, You're
(00:45):
bought with a price.
Therefore, glorify God in yourbody.
Your body is a temple of theHoly Spirit.
So glorify God in your body.
That's the four.
But here's the question whatdoes it mean?
What does he mean?
What does it mean to glorifyGod in your body?
And so here's why I'm excitedabout today's conversation.
To answer that question, or todiscuss the conversation with me
.
I've invited how am I going tointroduce this man my good
(01:09):
friend, my dear friend, mybeloved friend, Christopher West
, to be with us.
He is a I don't know if you'llappreciate me saying this,
Christopher, but to me a masterin theology of the body, what's
known as theology of the body.
We'll probably talk a littleabout what that is today.
In theology of the body, what'sknown as theology of the body,
We'll probably talk a littleabout what that is today.
But he's also just a deeply,deeply spiritual man who loves
Christ, loves Christ's church inits many expressions, and who's
(01:36):
been just a deep guide, mentorand friend to me over many years
.
20 years, 20 years it's beenclose to 20 years.
It's been a long time.
Close to 20, if it many years.
20 years, 20 years, it's.
It's been close to 20 years, along time close to 20.
If it's not exactly, 20, when wemet, my wife was pregnant with
our now 18 year old.
So there you go.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah, it was something like that.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
So you and I are a lot more gray than we were when
we first met.
We are.
I don't think we were gray atall.
When we met.
We were not gray.
We weren't gray Now we are.
Life has had, its has taken itstoll on us.
So, chris, for those who don'tknow you, um what, what else
would you say about yourself?
To introduce yourself?
Speaker 2 (02:14):
I am a man who is a hungry seeker, the.
The hunger, the, the yearningof my humanity has always been
very present to me, and as a boyI didn't know what it was, I
didn't know why I had it, but Ifelt it and God's creation would
(02:38):
awaken it in me in a particularway.
I was born in 1969.
I went to Catholic schools inthe 70s and the 80s and I was,
you know, typical kind ofCatholic education of that era.
I heard a lot about the TenCommandments and following the
(02:59):
rules, and the idea was I needto be a good boy, I need to do
something and be good, and Ididn't know how to reconcile
that with my hungers and mypassions.
In my teenage years I wanted tobe a good kid, but I had these
(03:20):
desires that were pulling meelsewhere.
And the way the gospel waspresented to me it was basically
your desires are bad, you needto repress all that, but follow
all these rules and you'll be agood, upstanding Christian
citizen.
And I don't know about otherpeople.
But that whole starvationapproach, you know follow the
(03:41):
rules and reject your desires.
I've come to call it thestarvation diet gospel and that
wasn't going to cut it for me.
I became a quick convert in myteenage years to what I've come
to call the fast food gospel,which is the secular culture's
promise of immediategratification for those hungers
(04:01):
and desires.
And I always say this I don'twant anybody to lie to me those
chicken nuggets taste good goingdown, especially when you're
hungry like I was.
But if just go with thatmetaphor if fast food becomes
your steady diet, where's thatgoing to lead you?
And that's a picture of me inmy college years.
(04:22):
So I'm late 80s now.
I'm in college and I've eaten alot of chicken nuggets and it
tasted good going down.
But now the grease and thesodium has caught up with me and
it put me on my knees in acollege dorm in 1988 saying, god
in heaven, if you exist, youbetter show me and you better
(04:50):
show me why you gave me allthese desires, because they're
getting me and everybody I knowinto a hell of a lot of trouble.
What is your plan?
And long story short, that setme on a journey of seeking that?
I'm still on, which is why whenyou asked you know, what do
other people need to know aboutyou?
Or what else do people need toknow about you, I said I'm a
hungry seeker and that seekingled me to this teaching you
mentioned it earlier a teachingby a crazy Polish guy who just
(05:11):
happened to be the Pope of mychildhood, john Paul II, and his
teaching was called Theology ofthe Body and, in short, it was
an extended Bible study that hedelivered between 1979 and 1984,
asking the question why did Godmake us male and female?
And, josh, you know some of thestory.
(05:32):
When I discovered this teaching, I was 24 years old.
This is now the early 90s and Ifelt like I had discovered the
answer to the crisis of ourtimes.
This was the Christian, thebiblical response to the sexual
revolution, and not just prooftext.
It wasn't just, you know, kindof picking one-liners out of the
(05:53):
Bible to prove a point.
It was giving this entirebiblical vision, from Genesis to
Revelation, and it was givingus a key to unlock the mystery
of the scriptures understood asa spousal story or a marital
story.
The Bible begins with amarriage in an earthly paradise.
(06:14):
It ends with another marriagein a heavenly paradise, and
right in the middle you have theSong of Songs, the great erotic
love poetry of the OldTestament.
This is the key that unlocksthe story.
God wants to marry us and hewanted that marital plan to be
so obvious to us.
He chiseled an image of itright in our creation as male
and female and in the call ofthe two to become one flesh.
(06:37):
This is a profound mystery, asPaul says, and it refers to
Christ and the church.
So if our understanding ofsexuality is confused, guess
what else is confused?
Our understanding of Christ andthe church.
And this is exactly why theenemy attacks right here.
(06:58):
He wants to confuse oursexuality so we no longer
understand the whole biblicalstory, we no longer understand
who Christ is or who the churchis, and we don't even understand
why we're here.
That's the world we live inright now.
We don't know what it means tobe human because we have lost
sight of our creation as maleand female.
And for such a time as this theworld we're living in right now
(07:23):
, with all this chaos andconfusion, have we been given
and when I say we, I mean allChristians?
This theology of the body isnot just for Catholics.
One of my great delights overthe last 30 plus years of doing
this work has been seeing howJohn Paul II's theology of the
body has crossed denominationallines, and you're a witness to
that too, josh.
(07:44):
So this is for all Christians.
For such a time as this have webeen given so great a theology
of the body.
We have the antidote to thecrisis of our times.
It just needs to be injectedinto the bloodstream of the
church, and that's what I'vegiven my life to.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Yeah, that was just a little bit.
Just a little bit that peopleneed to know about you.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
A little nibble, a little nibble of who Christopher
West is and what I do.
But I must say this Of all ofmy accomplishments, I am most
proud to call myself a devotedhusband to my dear wife Wendy.
We celebrate our 30thanniversary later this year.
We have five beautiful children, we have two grandchildren and,
(08:32):
yeah, it's hard for me to evencomprehend that I've been
married for almost 30 years.
It doesn't.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Yeah, yeah, and Wendy is a.
She's a.
I know her less than I know you, but what I know of her, she's
a wonderful compliment to youbecause she brings this
beautiful pastoral, gentle,discerning ear to some of the
questions that come your way, onyour podcast at least, so,
which I'll link to in the shownotes as well.
So check, check that out.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, my wife is the star of our podcast.
There's no doubt people tune in, maybe because they've heard of
me, but then when they get toknow Wendy, that's why they stay
tuned in.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
It's both of you, you guys, you really do.
I think you compliment eachother well and you and you
compliment each other well onthe podcast, in both those ways,
both spellings.
So, yeah, I want to riff herethis is not why we're talking
today, but I can't help.
But you talk about kind of yourchurch upbringing and the
starvation diet, and there'ssomething that strikes me and
(09:37):
I'm not sure I'm going to beable to kind of unearth it in
just a minute here, but I thinkthat in a lot of the churches
that I've been in, uh, yes,there's been versions of that,
but but with a little bit of aChristian spin on it, kind of
like, uh, um, you know we've,we've sinned, uh, christ offers
us grace, um, therefore, we'vegot reason to rejoice, and isn't
(10:01):
life good?
And yet I think some of the waythat you teach and talk about
the hunger and our hunger beingfor an infinite God, I think is
one way to give so many peoplein Christian circles permission
to.
It's okay, it's not even okay,it is good if you still find
(10:25):
yourself longing as a believer.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
It's proof that you're on the path yes, yeah,
because the path of followingChrist, as one beautiful,
beautiful, very holy man oncesaid to me.
I was on retreat with this guysome years ago.
I was on retreat with this guysome years ago and he said the
proof that you're growing inholiness is not the decrease of
(10:49):
desire, it's the infinitizationof desire, it's that your
desires are getting stretched tothe point that you know without
any doubt that nothing in thisworld can satisfy you.
You are made for somethinginfinite.
Right, if we are made in theimage and likeness of God, it
(11:15):
means, as the early Christianswould say, we have the kapax dei
, which means the capacity forGod.
You know, jesus says as theFather has loved me, so I have
loved you.
Remain in my love.
Well, pause there.
You know, there we are sittingin our churches, we're listening
to that scripture verse and itkind of just goes in one ear and
(11:36):
out the other Whoa, whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa, whoa.
As the Father has loved me, sohave I loved you.
What kind of love are wetalking about here?
We are talking about somethinginfinite, something beyond the
realm of the created order.
We're talking about anuncreated, infinite love.
(12:00):
That is the very source of theexistence of everything.
We're talking about somethingmightier than the trillions and
trillions of stars that exist.
We're talking about the forcebehind everything, the power
behind everything.
And we, these little specks ofdust, have been given as a total
(12:27):
, absolute, sheer gift, thecapacity, the kapaxdei, the
capacity to receive that kind oflove, an uncreated love.
We have been given, ascreatures, the capacity to
receive an uncreated love.
As the psalmist says, you'vemade us little less than a god,
(12:53):
right, I mean, we're alwayscreatures, but God gives to us
as creatures as much of hisdivinity as it is absolutely
possible to give a creature, asit is absolutely possible to
give a creature.
That's what we're made for.
And, as CS Lewis says, when weconsider the rewards held out to
us in the scriptures, it's notthat we desire too much.
(13:14):
The problem is we desire fartoo little.
Infinite, infinite bliss isheld out to us.
Infinite, infinite bliss isheld out to us.
And CS Lewis says we're messingaround with alcohol and money
(13:39):
and sex and all these otherpleasures that God made the
pleasures of the world to belittle signs that are meant to
point us to an ultimatefulfillment.
But when we treat sexualpleasure as ultimate fulfillment
itself.
He says the problem is not thatwe desire too much, we desire
far too little.
We're saying I prefer themomentary pleasure of an illicit
orgasm over the opportunity ofparticipating in the infinite
(14:01):
ecstasy and bliss of theTrinitarian exchange of love.
To which I respond bad choice,bad choice.
But why do we do this?
Why do we do this?
It's because I believe, as Iwrestle with my own sinful
tendencies, when I choosesomething less than God to be my
(14:23):
satisfaction, and that when youboil, sin down, that's pretty
much what it amounts to.
I am looking for thisfulfillment.
Only God can give it to me, butI don't believe he's going to
give it to me.
So I grasp at some creaturecomfort, and I was just
(14:44):
listening to this song yesterday.
I was a Peter Gabriel fan in myteenage years and his music has
meant a lot to me.
And have you ever heard, josh,the song called Blood of Eden by
Peter Gabriel?
No, I don't think so.
Look it up.
He's singing about the yearningof men and women to unite and
(15:07):
he traces it back to what hecalls the blood of Eden.
And it's a song about the unionof man and woman.
But it's not a.
There's nothing off about it,there's nothing perverse about
it.
It's an honest man's seeking.
For what is this yearning wehave for union?
(15:30):
Why are we, male and female Inthe blood of Eden?
He says we lie.
The woman and the man, and theman is in the woman and the
woman is in the man.
In the blood of Eden they longfor the union, oh, the union of
the woman and the man.
Obviously this is biblicalimagery, the union of the woman
and the man in Eden.
(15:50):
And it's Peter Gabriel'sreflection on this original call
, a divine call for man andwoman to become one flesh.
But there's a line in the songwhen he says I can hear the
distant thunder of a millionunheard souls.
And then he just laments of amillion unheard souls and you
(16:14):
can feel like he's feeling thehunger of humanity.
And he says I watch each onereach for creature comforts, for
the filling of their holes, andthere it is.
That's sin.
Sin is when we take our yearningfor God and we aim it at a
(16:38):
creature.
And Paul talks about this inRomans, chapter one, right when
we exchange the creature for thecreator and we no longer
glorify God.
We turn and we seek in thecreature what only God can give
us.
And what does Paul say?
He says God gives us up in ourlusts.
And that's really a pretty good, working definition of lust.
Lust happens when we aim ourdesire for infinite joy at
(17:01):
finite pleasure.
That's lust, and that's whatChrist came to save us from.
Christ came to save us fromthese disordered desires.
The very first thing he says inthe what are you after?
What are you seeking, what areyou looking for?
(17:23):
And the first thing he says inMatthew and Mark is an
invitation to reorient ourdesire.
Metanoia, turn about, redirectyour yearning towards what
you're really yearning for.
That's what repentance is.
Repentance is not just sayingI'm sorry, I sinned.
(17:43):
Repentance is the reorientationof our desire.
Metanoia, turn around, turntowards what you really yearn
for.
I once heard it said thatevangelization is nothing other
than one hungry person showinganother hungry person where to
(18:03):
find good bread.
And we know what that goodbread is it's Christ himself,
the bread of life.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
What I want to.
I want to just pause here.
So this is a word to everybody,not just to non-Christians, not
just to unbelievers, and thatis revolutionary, I think, for
all of us.
So this idea of metanoiaturning around, I've heard that
(18:37):
a million times, but I've heardit this way it's turning around
and following Jesus, andoftentimes it's come across as
you're forsaking your desiresand you're following Jesus,
which is not what you said.
That's not what I said.
You said it's turning yourdesires towards their ultimate
(18:58):
fulfillment Correct, which is.
And so I just want to say thisOkay, I'm talking to myself, I'm
talking to other, to Christianlisteners.
Listeners, listen.
Part of what Christopher isinviting us into, part of what
Jesus is inviting us into, isacknowledging that we still
(19:19):
hunger.
Christopher, I think I sharedthis story with you.
I was on a Christian retreatyears ago and we were singing
this song.
It's an older song, I can'tremember how it goes, but it's
one of the lines had somethingto do with you know, lord, I'm
lost without you, I hunger foryou, something like this.
And the song just leaves itthere.
(19:40):
But the worship leader, towardsthe end of the song, changed it
and he started singing like I'msatisfied.
But I remember at the timefeeling like that's right, but
it doesn't feel right.
And I think why it didn't feelright was because, like, yes,
Lord, you satisfy, and I'm stillhungry.
(20:03):
Yes, yes, yes.
And there's, there's a, and Idon't mean that I'm like there,
I've, I've had experiences as aChristian where I'm like I, lord
, I feel satisfied, I'm, I feelfull, I'm grateful.
But I also have a lot of timeswhere I'm like you know, we,
when, before the call, you askedhow you do it, I'm like, ah, it
feels like a really drearyMonday and it's Tuesday, you
(20:25):
know.
I'm like, it's just like, ah,um, I want to come in here full
and I'm, but I'm coming hungryand um, and part of what I hear
you saying is yeah, yeah, like,don't ignore that Like, but just
don't misdirect it.
Yes, correct, but just don'tmisdirect it.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yes, correct.
One of my favorite sayings isfrom St Augustine, augustine of
Hippo.
He says the Christian life isto be trained by longing.
This is what the good life of agood christian looks like.
(21:08):
It looks like you are beingtrained by your hunger, and your
hunger is leading you to thatwhich ultimately satisfies.
But in this life we're notthere yet.
We're not Now.
It's true that faith gives ustastes of ultimate satisfaction.
(21:29):
In this life, we do get littleforeshadowings and I think here
it's one of my favorite lines inthe New Testament, when the
people who are following Christand listening intently to his
teachings, people who arefollowing Christ and listening
intently to his teachings,they've been with him in a
deserted place for, I think,three plus days, and Jesus you
(21:49):
know it's right before themultiplication of the loaves and
Jesus says we can't send themhome, they'll pass out on the
way.
I don't want them to pass outalong the way.
He had compassion for thembecause they had been with him
for days and he didn't want themto pass out along the way.
He had compassion for thembecause they had been with them
for days and he didn't want themto pass out on the way.
Now, whenever you hear the wayin Scripture, it has a deeper
(22:12):
meaning In the New Testament.
It means the way of followingChrist.
And along the way of followingChrist.
Along the way of followingChrist, we get tastes.
He does In his compassion, hegives us tastes.
But along the way of followingChrist, what's happening is our
(22:40):
yearning for the wedding feastof the Lamb, which is the
ultimate satisfaction of ourevery yearning.
Our yearning for that eternalwedding banquet increases.
And one of my heroes in theChristian life, in the Catholic
world we call her Saint Teresaof Avila she got to the point of
yearning so profoundly for themarriage of the Lamb that she
(23:01):
said I die because I do not dieLike.
She was so overcome by thispassionate hunger for the
consummation of the marriage ofthe lamb that she, she, she just
wanted.
She wanted nothing other thanthat, and she died because she
(23:22):
didn't die.
She said the pain of thelonging for heaven became
overwhelming and I just wantedto die so I could fulfill my
yearning.
And I died because I didn't die.
Wow, that's a sign that we areon the way, not that our hunger
(23:44):
is diminishing, but that ourhunger is being infinitized.
It's being stretched to thepoint of infinity right.
And we have this imagery alsofrom the Song of Songs, where
the lover in the Song of Songs,which represents all of us,
(24:04):
right, the church, the bride,the bride, is in the bridal
chamber and she is longing forconsummation and the bridegroom
is on his way and she undresses.
She undresses in the bridalchamber, basically saying to the
bridegroom am ready for union,I am ready to come together, and
(24:25):
the bridegroom, who representschrist ultimately in the song of
songs, peers through the windowand and she catches a glimpse
of him and then, to the surpriseof everyone who's following the
story, he turns around andleaves.
And you're like what, what,what?
(24:51):
The bride is aching and piningfor consummation, she's taking
off her clothes, the bridegroomappears and then he turns around
and leaves.
The bridegroom appears and thenhe turns around and leaves.
And saint after saint over thecenturies, reflecting on this
mysterious passage in the Songof Songs, and how does this
refer to Christ and the church,and why would Christ ever do
(25:12):
this to anyone?
Saint after saint has said andhere I quote Augustine, this is
his way of putting it, but manyother have said similar things
the bridegroom leaves, why?
To stretch our desire?
And he says imagine that yourheart is a purse and the purse
(25:33):
is too small to put the giftwithin it.
The leather of the purse has tobe stretched to have the
capacity to receive so big agift, so great a gift.
I said earlier we all have thekapax dei, the capacity for God.
(25:53):
But what has happened withoriginal sin?
Christ called it hardness ofheart.
The capacity to receive God hasshrunken.
Right, the leather is alltightened up, if you will, from
hardness of heart.
And that leather needs to bemade supple and it needs to be
(26:16):
stretched so that we have againthe full capacity to receive the
infinite love that God wants topour into us.
And that process of stretchingone's desires, that process of
infinitizing one's desires, canbe agonizing.
And so St Paul talks aboutgroaning in the Spirit, right
(26:42):
Prayers that are too deep forwords.
When you are in touch, when youreally seek to answer honestly
the question that Jesus asks usall at the beginning of the
Gospel of John what do you want?
If we are honest about thatquestion, it will send you into
(27:04):
groaning prayer, where you aregroaning in your yearning for
what you really yearn for.
If you are not groaning in youryearning, if there is not a cry
of your heart to be filled.
Right, my soul cries for you, Ilong for you in my body and my
(27:29):
soul, says the psalmist, my bodypines for you, says the
psalmist.
My soul cries out for theliving God.
Right, that is a cry, that is agroan, that is an ache, that is
a yearning that only God canfill.
And again I'll say it Thanks beto God in this life.
(27:50):
Through faith, we get tastes offulfillment.
But any Christian who says Igave my life to Christ and I was
totally satisfied and I'venever yearned for anything at
all, ever since that moment, Idon't believe him, not for a
moment.
I don't believe him.
That is a stagnated journey,right there, you're not on the
(28:14):
journey of the infinitizing ofdesire.
Now, if someone were to say tome let me qualify what I'm
saying, so we're clear.
Let me qualify what I'm saying,so we're clear.
If someone were to say to me Ilive with a steady, underlying
joy because of the hope thatChrist has given me and hope as.
(28:36):
St Paul tells us does notdisappoint.
Okay, I'm with you brother, I'mwith you, sister.
I believe that, because that iswhat we're given, but notice it
is is what we're given, butnotice it is hope that we're
given, and we don't hope forthings we already have.
As St Paul tells us.
Right, we hope for that whichis to come, and the kingdom is
(28:56):
among us, it is true, but it'snot yet in its fullness.
And so, along the way of ourfollowing Christ, we are going
to feel the longing for thefullness of the coming of the
kingdom, and that is what I meanby the infinite, infinitization
of desire.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Welcome everybody to our podcast.
That was preview.
Now we haven't even gotten intothe topic at hand, but it's all
related.
It's all related with it and Iappreciate it, because I, I, I
(29:42):
forget my longing and I and I,honestly I, I forget that it's
good to long and that it's goodto feel the ache, because when I
feel the ache, my, I think whatI've been trained in, what our
culture trains us to, is getaway from the ache.
Yes, yes, numb it and um, yeah,numb it.
And I think the, the smartphone, has um oh yeah, it's a big
(30:06):
numbing agent yeah, and and the.
The illusion of infinitegratification, instant and
infinite gratification online,has just exacerbated that but
but.
But it leaves us withpermission.
So when I get done doomscrolling, which I don't do as
much anymore I got rid of mymost of the, the, the, uh, what
(30:28):
my smartphone can do because ofthis.
But when I get done with doomscrolling and find myself so
flipping hungry, and empty um,it's actually a wonderfully good
thing, like, yeah, cause that's, that doesn't satisfy.
I'm so far from satisfied.
Yeah, thank you brother.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
All right.
The early Christians tell usprayer is nothing other than
becoming a longing for God.
That's prayer.
Prayer is becoming that longingfor God, feeling that longing
and learning how to aim it atwhat we really long for the
(31:09):
living God.
And one of my favoritescripture verses I think it's
Psalm, is it Psalm 119?
I might be getting that wrong,but it's.
I treasure your promises in myheart, o Lord, lest I sin
against you.
Because if I feel that ache, ifI feel that hunger and I do not
(31:31):
have faith that God isultimately going to satisfy that
hunger, well, I am going totake satisfaction into my own
hands.
That's the lest I sin againstyou part, right.
But if I treasure his promises,I can feel that ache more.
I can feel that ache.
I can stay in that ache if Ireally open my ache to you and
(31:53):
treasure your promise.
What is your promise?
Your promise is that all whocome to me, come to me, all you
who are thirsty, come to me, allyou who are hungry, and you
will not hunger again, you willnot thirst again.
Now, that's a promise.
Jesus is not saying you're notgoing to hunger again in this
life, because we do hunger againin this life, right, but he's
(32:16):
talking about the consummationof the marriage of the Lamb.
In the consummation of themarriage of the lamb we will not
hunger or thirst, but in thislife we hunger and we thirst,
and that hunger and thirst, ifit doesn't become prayer, it
will become sin yeah, whoa sorry, I zoned out for half a second
(32:43):
and I got what you're saying.
If it doesn't become prayer, itwill become sin and it will
become sin in two manners eitherthrough the numbing out of our
hearts or through pursuing falseinfinities.
And jesus laments the numbingout of the heart when he says I
(33:07):
sang a dirge and you did notweep.
I played the flute and you didnot dance.
That's a hard heart, that's aheart that's numbed out.
It's a heart that doesn't feelwhat it really feels.
Right, we've numbed out.
And a heart that is taking itssatisfactions to finite
(33:27):
pleasures.
It's taking the yearning forinfinite satisfaction to finite
pleasure.
Well, that's where we getaddiction right.
Addiction happens when we aimour desire for infinite joy at
finite pleasures never satisfy.
So we think we need more andmore and more and more and more.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Yeah, yeah yeah, and listeners, I, for those of you
who who resonate with that andsay, yeah, I, that's what's
happened to me.
I I keep going back to thisstuff and I know it doesn't
satisfy me and I it's.
I feel beat up because I keepgoing back to this stuff and I
know it doesn't satisfy me and Iit's.
I feel beat up because I keepgoing back to this.
Um, there's no condemnation inwhat christopher's saying.
The it's invitation likecorrect, correct.
(34:11):
Recognize even that that yourown dissatisfaction with what
you're doing, your own lamentingwhat you're doing, is part of
the goodness of your heartcalling out for something better
yes, yes just just begin therejust stay right in there.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
stay, listen to your pain.
That's what I say to people.
Listen to your pain.
Pain is instructive, right, andthis is why numbing ourselves
out is very dangerous, because,you know, let's just draw a
parallel with physical pain Ifyou numb your hand and it's on a
(34:46):
hot stove, you won't know it'son a hot stove, so you'll keep
it on the hot stove without evenknowing it and you'll do
serious damage to your hand.
Right, that pain tells you youshouldn't be doing that.
Our emotional and our spiritualpain is just as instructive.
It's telling us something ain'tright.
(35:07):
I'm giving my heart tosomething that's damaging me, or
I have given my heart tosomething that's damaged me.
I've believed some lie, and somuch of the journey of the
Christian life is undoing thelies we've believed and
(35:28):
reorienting our desire towardswhat we really desire talking
about listening to your pain, Iwant to make one clarification
that that does not mean umcoming coming underneath, uh
(35:48):
condemnation or accusation no,no, it does not, you are
absolutely correct that that'lldo just the opposite.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
So we um, and and sometimes, just to be fair,
sometimes it can be difficult torecognize, especially when
you're in the midst of it,difficult to recognize the
difference between is this justnatural consequence from going
to that old dirty water that?
I've been drinking from or isthis the enemy?
Attacking and accusing me andlisteners, you may need help.
(36:16):
You may need help discerning.
I know I did.
I needed people to say that isnot from you, that's not from
the Lord, that's from the enemy.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Needed people to say that is not from you, that's not
from the Lord, that's from theenemy.
Yeah, I think that one of thescripture verses that comes to
me in making this very importantclarification that you're
making, josh and I'm glad you'remaking it, because I know how
easy it is to fall under thosevoices as well the scripture
that comes to me is the womancaught in adultery.
I do not condemn you, I do notcondemn you.
And right before that, or rightin that same context, we see
(36:47):
that beautiful line Jesus wasalone with the woman.
That's so important.
We need to be with the Lord,without other eyes, without
anybody else's eyes on us, justalone with the Lord, where we
are not tempted to look at whatother people are saying.
And that's where the voice ofcondemnation comes from right.
(37:11):
Everybody in that crowd wantedto throw a stone at her right.
And those voices go away.
Jesus is alone with the woman.
And then we can hear I do notcondemn you, but also go and sin
.
No more.
Right.
But what is sin here?
Why was she committing adultery?
(37:32):
Why did she take her hunger andher thirst to this illicit
relationship?
What is she really yearning for?
And now we're circling back towhat we originally wanted to
talk about in this podcast.
It's not just turn away fromsexual sin, but what am I
turning toward?
(37:53):
Right, what had this woman beenlooking for?
She had been looking for thelove of a man, for the love of a
man.
Well, whom has she encountered?
Right here, she encountered thelove of the man.
That is the only love that cansatisfy the hunger and thirst
(38:14):
that she had.
This is again a metanoia moment.
It's a redirection of her heartand her hunger towards that
which really satisfies.
Think also of the woman at thewell, when Jesus says go get
your husband.
Well, what's that all about?
Go get your husband?
(38:35):
Well, jesus is trying to pointout to her where she has been
taking her thirst.
Right, she's been taking herthirst to all of these imperfect
lovers.
She had been married five timesand the guy she's with now,
number six, is not her husband.
Well, guess what?
Six is the imperfect biblicalnumber.
(38:57):
You've been taking your thirstto all of these imperfect lovers
.
What's the perfect biblicalnumber?
Josh seven.
Who's her seventh lover?
Speaker 1 (39:09):
right there, right there right there.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
If you knew the gift that I wanted to give you, you
would ask me for a drink and Iwould give you a water that
wells up in you to the infinite,to the eternal, to everlasting
life.
I'm number seven.
I'm your perfect lover.
Bring your thirst to me and letme satisfy it.
(39:33):
That's the living hope thatJesus gives us.
It's a living hope.
Now that woman I'm utterlyconvinced, both the woman caught
in adultery and the woman atthe well, I'm utterly convinced
both of them, that day,experienced a real taste of
fulfillment.
But it's not the ultimatefulfillment until we arrive at
(39:57):
the marriage of the Lamb.
So we need to continue to makeacts of faith.
I treasure your promise in myheart, o Lord, lest I sin
against you.
I treasure your promise in myheart, o Lord, lest I sin
against you.
You have promised me thatyou're going to satisfy my every
hunger and thirst.
You have promised me this Itreasure your promise in my
(40:18):
heart, o Lord, because if Idon't treasure that promise, I'm
going to take that hungersomewhere else or I'm going to
shut it down, and either way I'mgoing to sin against you.
But I treasure your promise inmy heart, o Lord, lest I sin
against you.
Open wide your mouth and I willfill it, says the Lord.
Open wide your mouth and I willfill it, says the Lord.
(40:39):
Believe that Psalm 81, if I'mnot mistaken.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Okay, with that, we got to.
We got to pause because we knowwe're hitting our time for this
week, but, listeners, come backnext week.
We're going to continue thisconversation with Christopher
West and we're going to get to.
How do you glorify God in yourbody?
Is it a momentary decision?
Is it a process?
Come back next week for more.
Hey everybody, welcome back.
I'm eager to get into today'sepisode for multiple reasons.
Before I tell you why, let metell you what we're going to be
talking about.
We are going to be talkingabout what we're doing all this,
for so a lot of times peoplecome to our ministry they're
wrestling with some type ofunwanted sexual behavior, and
that's what they're aware of.
I want to get away from this.
(00:21):
I want to stop doing this,whatever this is for them.
But we're not just called awayfrom something, we're called to
something.
And Paul gets after this alittle bit in 1 Corinthians 6,
when he says in 1 Corinthians 6,18, he says flee sexual
immorality.
All other sins a person commitsare outside the body, but the
person who sins sexually sinsagainst the body.
And then he goes on to say foryou are not your own, You're
(00:45):
bought with a price.
Therefore, glorify God in yourbody.
Your body is a temple of theHoly Spirit.
So glorify God in your body.
That's the four.
But here's the question whatdoes it mean?
What does he mean?
What does it mean to glorifyGod in your body?
And so here's why I'm excitedabout today's conversation.
To answer that question, or todiscuss the conversation with me
.
I've invited how am I going tointroduce this man my good
(01:09):
friend, my dear friend, mybeloved friend, Christopher West
, to be with us.
He is a I don't know if you'llappreciate me saying this,
Christopher, but to me a masterin theology of the body, what's
known as theology of the body.
We'll probably talk a littleabout what that is today.
In theology of the body, what'sknown as theology of the body,
We'll probably talk a littleabout what that is today.
But he's also just a deeply,deeply spiritual man who loves
Christ, loves Christ's church inits many expressions, and who's
(01:36):
been just a deep guide, mentorand friend to me over many years
.
20 years, 20 years it's beenclose to 20 years.
It's been a long time.
Close to 20, if it many years.
20 years, 20 years, it's.
It's been close to 20 years, along time close to 20.
If it's not exactly, 20, when wemet, my wife was pregnant with
our now 18 year old.
So there you go.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah, it was something like that.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
So you and I are a lot more gray than we were when
we first met.
We are.
I don't think we were gray atall.
When we met.
We were not gray.
We weren't gray Now we are.
Life has had, its has taken itstoll on us.
So, chris, for those who don'tknow you, um what, what else
would you say about yourself?
To introduce yourself?
Speaker 2 (02:14):
I am a man who is a hungry seeker, the.
The hunger, the, the yearningof my humanity has always been
very present to me, and as a boyI didn't know what it was, I
didn't know why I had it, but Ifelt it and God's creation would
(02:38):
awaken it in me in a particularway.
I was born in 1969.
I went to Catholic schools inthe 70s and the 80s and I was,
you know, typical kind ofCatholic education of that era.
I heard a lot about the TenCommandments and following the
(02:59):
rules, and the idea was I needto be a good boy, I need to do
something and be good, and Ididn't know how to reconcile
that with my hungers and mypassions.
In my teenage years I wanted tobe a good kid, but I had these
(03:20):
desires that were pulling meelsewhere.
And the way the gospel waspresented to me it was basically
your desires are bad, you needto repress all that, but follow
all these rules and you'll be agood, upstanding Christian
citizen.
And I don't know about otherpeople.
But that whole starvationapproach, you know follow the
(03:41):
rules and reject your desires.
I've come to call it thestarvation diet gospel and that
wasn't going to cut it for me.
I became a quick convert in myteenage years to what I've come
to call the fast food gospel,which is the secular culture's
promise of immediategratification for those hungers
(04:01):
and desires.
And I always say this I don'twant anybody to lie to me those
chicken nuggets taste good goingdown, especially when you're
hungry like I was.
But if just go with thatmetaphor if fast food becomes
your steady diet, where's thatgoing to lead you?
And that's a picture of me inmy college years.
(04:22):
So I'm late 80s now.
I'm in college and I've eaten alot of chicken nuggets and it
tasted good going down.
But now the grease and thesodium has caught up with me and
it put me on my knees in acollege dorm in 1988 saying, god
in heaven, if you exist, youbetter show me and you better
(04:50):
show me why you gave me allthese desires, because they're
getting me and everybody I knowinto a hell of a lot of trouble.
What is your plan?
And long story short, that setme on a journey of seeking that?
I'm still on, which is why whenyou asked you know, what do
other people need to know aboutyou?
Or what else do people need toknow about you, I said I'm a
hungry seeker and that seekingled me to this teaching you
mentioned it earlier a teachingby a crazy Polish guy who just
(05:11):
happened to be the Pope of mychildhood, john Paul II, and his
teaching was called Theology ofthe Body and, in short, it was
an extended Bible study that hedelivered between 1979 and 1984,
asking the question why did Godmake us male and female?
And, josh, you know some of thestory.
(05:32):
When I discovered this teaching, I was 24 years old.
This is now the early 90s and Ifelt like I had discovered the
answer to the crisis of ourtimes.
This was the Christian, thebiblical response to the sexual
revolution, and not just prooftext.
It wasn't just, you know, kindof picking one-liners out of the
(05:53):
Bible to prove a point.
It was giving this entirebiblical vision, from Genesis to
Revelation, and it was givingus a key to unlock the mystery
of the scriptures understood asa spousal story or a marital
story.
The Bible begins with amarriage in an earthly paradise.
(06:14):
It ends with another marriagein a heavenly paradise, and
right in the middle you have theSong of Songs, the great erotic
love poetry of the OldTestament.
This is the key that unlocksthe story.
God wants to marry us and hewanted that marital plan to be
so obvious to us.
He chiseled an image of itright in our creation as male
and female and in the call ofthe two to become one flesh.
(06:37):
This is a profound mystery, asPaul says, and it refers to
Christ and the church.
So if our understanding ofsexuality is confused, guess
what else is confused?
Our understanding of Christ andthe church.
And this is exactly why theenemy attacks right here.
(06:58):
He wants to confuse oursexuality so we no longer
understand the whole biblicalstory, we no longer understand
who Christ is or who the churchis, and we don't even understand
why we're here.
That's the world we live inright now.
We don't know what it means tobe human because we have lost
sight of our creation as maleand female.
And for such a time as this theworld we're living in right now
(07:23):
, with all this chaos andconfusion, have we been given
and when I say we, I mean allChristians?
This theology of the body isnot just for Catholics.
One of my great delights overthe last 30 plus years of doing
this work has been seeing howJohn Paul II's theology of the
body has crossed denominationallines, and you're a witness to
that too, josh.
(07:44):
So this is for all Christians.
For such a time as this have webeen given so great a theology
of the body.
We have the antidote to thecrisis of our times.
It just needs to be injectedinto the bloodstream of the
church, and that's what I'vegiven my life to.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Yeah, that was just a little bit.
Just a little bit that peopleneed to know about you.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
A little nibble, a little nibble of who Christopher
West is and what I do.
But I must say this Of all ofmy accomplishments, I am most
proud to call myself a devotedhusband to my dear wife Wendy.
We celebrate our 30thanniversary later this year.
We have five beautiful children, we have two grandchildren and,
(08:32):
yeah, it's hard for me to evencomprehend that I've been
married for almost 30 years.
It doesn't.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Yeah, yeah, and Wendy is a.
She's a.
I know her less than I know you, but what I know of her, she's
a wonderful compliment to youbecause she brings this
beautiful pastoral, gentle,discerning ear to some of the
questions that come your way, onyour podcast at least, so,
which I'll link to in the shownotes as well.
So check, check that out.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, my wife is the star of our podcast.
There's no doubt people tune in, maybe because they've heard of
me, but then when they get toknow Wendy, that's why they stay
tuned in.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
It's both of you, you guys, you really do.
I think you compliment eachother well and you and you
compliment each other well onthe podcast, in both those ways,
both spellings.
So, yeah, I want to riff herethis is not why we're talking
today, but I can't help.
But you talk about kind of yourchurch upbringing and the
starvation diet, and there'ssomething that strikes me and
(09:37):
I'm not sure I'm going to beable to kind of unearth it in
just a minute here, but I thinkthat in a lot of the churches
that I've been in, uh, yes,there's been versions of that,
but but with a little bit of aChristian spin on it, kind of
like, uh, um, you know we've,we've sinned, uh, christ offers
us grace, um, therefore, we'vegot reason to rejoice, and isn't
(10:01):
life good?
And yet I think some of the waythat you teach and talk about
the hunger and our hunger beingfor an infinite God, I think is
one way to give so many peoplein Christian circles permission
to.
It's okay, it's not even okay,it is good if you still find
(10:25):
yourself longing as a believer.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
It's proof that you're on the path yes, yeah,
because the path of followingChrist, as one beautiful,
beautiful, very holy man oncesaid to me.
I was on retreat with this guysome years ago.
I was on retreat with this guysome years ago and he said the
proof that you're growing inholiness is not the decrease of
(10:49):
desire, it's the infinitizationof desire, it's that your
desires are getting stretched tothe point that you know without
any doubt that nothing in thisworld can satisfy you.
You are made for somethinginfinite.
Right, if we are made in theimage and likeness of God, it
(11:15):
means, as the early Christianswould say, we have the kapax dei
, which means the capacity forGod.
You know, jesus says as theFather has loved me, so I have
loved you.
Remain in my love.
Well, pause there.
You know, there we are sittingin our churches, we're listening
to that scripture verse and itkind of just goes in one ear and
(11:36):
out the other Whoa, whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa, whoa.
As the Father has loved me, sohave I loved you.
What kind of love are wetalking about here?
We are talking about somethinginfinite, something beyond the
realm of the created order.
We're talking about anuncreated, infinite love.
(12:00):
That is the very source of theexistence of everything.
We're talking about somethingmightier than the trillions and
trillions of stars that exist.
We're talking about the forcebehind everything, the power
behind everything.
And we, these little specks ofdust, have been given as a total
(12:27):
, absolute, sheer gift, thecapacity, the kapaxdei, the
capacity to receive that kind oflove, an uncreated love.
We have been given, ascreatures, the capacity to
receive an uncreated love.
As the psalmist says, you'vemade us little less than a god,
(12:53):
right, I mean, we're alwayscreatures, but God gives to us
as creatures as much of hisdivinity as it is absolutely
possible to give a creature, asit is absolutely possible to
give a creature.
That's what we're made for.
And, as CS Lewis says, when weconsider the rewards held out to
us in the scriptures, it's notthat we desire too much.
(13:14):
The problem is we desire fartoo little.
Infinite, infinite bliss isheld out to us.
Infinite, infinite bliss isheld out to us.
And CS Lewis says we're messingaround with alcohol and money
(13:39):
and sex and all these otherpleasures that God made the
pleasures of the world to belittle signs that are meant to
point us to an ultimatefulfillment.
But when we treat sexualpleasure as ultimate fulfillment
itself.
He says the problem is not thatwe desire too much, we desire
far too little.
We're saying I prefer themomentary pleasure of an illicit
orgasm over the opportunity ofparticipating in the infinite
(14:01):
ecstasy and bliss of theTrinitarian exchange of love.
To which I respond bad choice,bad choice.
But why do we do this?
Why do we do this?
It's because I believe, as Iwrestle with my own sinful
tendencies, when I choosesomething less than God to be my
(14:23):
satisfaction, and that when youboil, sin down, that's pretty
much what it amounts to.
I am looking for thisfulfillment.
Only God can give it to me, butI don't believe he's going to
give it to me.
So I grasp at some creaturecomfort, and I was just
(14:44):
listening to this song yesterday.
I was a Peter Gabriel fan in myteenage years and his music has
meant a lot to me.
And have you ever heard, josh,the song called Blood of Eden by
Peter Gabriel?
No, I don't think so.
Look it up.
He's singing about the yearningof men and women to unite and
(15:07):
he traces it back to what hecalls the blood of Eden.
And it's a song about the unionof man and woman.
But it's not a.
There's nothing off about it,there's nothing perverse about
it.
It's an honest man's seeking.
For what is this yearning wehave for union?
(15:30):
Why are we, male and female Inthe blood of Eden?
He says we lie.
The woman and the man, and theman is in the woman and the
woman is in the man.
In the blood of Eden they longfor the union, oh, the union of
the woman and the man.
Obviously this is biblicalimagery, the union of the woman
and the man in Eden.
(15:50):
And it's Peter Gabriel'sreflection on this original call
, a divine call for man andwoman to become one flesh.
But there's a line in the songwhen he says I can hear the
distant thunder of a millionunheard souls.
And then he just laments of amillion unheard souls and you
(16:14):
can feel like he's feeling thehunger of humanity.
And he says I watch each onereach for creature comforts, for
the filling of their holes, andthere it is.
That's sin.
Sin is when we take our yearningfor God and we aim it at a
(16:38):
creature.
And Paul talks about this inRomans, chapter one, right when
we exchange the creature for thecreator and we no longer
glorify God.
We turn and we seek in thecreature what only God can give
us.
And what does Paul say?
He says God gives us up in ourlusts.
And that's really a pretty good, working definition of lust.
Lust happens when we aim ourdesire for infinite joy at
(17:01):
finite pleasure.
That's lust, and that's whatChrist came to save us from.
Christ came to save us fromthese disordered desires.
The very first thing he says inthe what are you after?
What are you seeking, what areyou looking for?
(17:23):
And the first thing he says inMatthew and Mark is an
invitation to reorient ourdesire.
Metanoia, turn about, redirectyour yearning towards what
you're really yearning for.
That's what repentance is.
Repentance is not just sayingI'm sorry, I sinned.
(17:43):
Repentance is the reorientationof our desire.
Metanoia, turn around, turntowards what you really yearn
for.
I once heard it said thatevangelization is nothing other
than one hungry person showinganother hungry person where to
(18:03):
find good bread.
And we know what that goodbread is it's Christ himself,
the bread of life.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
What I want to.
I want to just pause here.
So this is a word to everybody,not just to non-Christians, not
just to unbelievers, and thatis revolutionary, I think, for
all of us.
So this idea of metanoiaturning around, I've heard that
(18:37):
a million times, but I've heardit this way it's turning around
and following Jesus, andoftentimes it's come across as
you're forsaking your desiresand you're following Jesus,
which is not what you said.
That's not what I said.
You said it's turning yourdesires towards their ultimate
(18:58):
fulfillment Correct, which is.
And so I just want to say thisOkay, I'm talking to myself, I'm
talking to other, to Christianlisteners.
Listeners, listen.
Part of what Christopher isinviting us into, part of what
Jesus is inviting us into, isacknowledging that we still
(19:19):
hunger.
Christopher, I think I sharedthis story with you.
I was on a Christian retreatyears ago and we were singing
this song.
It's an older song, I can'tremember how it goes, but it's
one of the lines had somethingto do with you know, lord, I'm
lost without you, I hunger foryou, something like this.
And the song just leaves itthere.
(19:40):
But the worship leader, towardsthe end of the song, changed it
and he started singing like I'msatisfied.
But I remember at the timefeeling like that's right, but
it doesn't feel right.
And I think why it didn't feelright was because, like, yes,
Lord, you satisfy, and I'm stillhungry.
(20:03):
Yes, yes, yes.
And there's, there's a, and Idon't mean that I'm like there,
I've, I've had experiences as aChristian where I'm like I, lord
, I feel satisfied, I'm, I feelfull, I'm grateful.
But I also have a lot of timeswhere I'm like you know, we,
when, before the call, you askedhow you do it, I'm like, ah, it
feels like a really drearyMonday and it's Tuesday, you
(20:25):
know.
I'm like, it's just like, ah,um, I want to come in here full
and I'm, but I'm coming hungryand um, and part of what I hear
you saying is yeah, yeah, like,don't ignore that Like, but just
don't misdirect it.
Yes, correct, but just don'tmisdirect it.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yes, correct.
One of my favorite sayings isfrom St Augustine, augustine of
Hippo.
He says the Christian life isto be trained by longing.
This is what the good life of agood christian looks like.
(21:08):
It looks like you are beingtrained by your hunger, and your
hunger is leading you to thatwhich ultimately satisfies.
But in this life we're notthere yet.
We're not Now.
It's true that faith gives ustastes of ultimate satisfaction.
(21:29):
In this life, we do get littleforeshadowings and I think here
it's one of my favorite lines inthe New Testament, when the
people who are following Christand listening intently to his
teachings, people who arefollowing Christ and listening
intently to his teachings,they've been with him in a
deserted place for, I think,three plus days, and Jesus you
(21:49):
know it's right before themultiplication of the loaves and
Jesus says we can't send themhome, they'll pass out on the
way.
I don't want them to pass outalong the way.
He had compassion for thembecause they had been with him
for days and he didn't want themto pass out along the way.
He had compassion for thembecause they had been with them
for days and he didn't want themto pass out on the way.
Now, whenever you hear the wayin Scripture, it has a deeper
(22:12):
meaning In the New Testament.
It means the way of followingChrist.
And along the way of followingChrist.
Along the way of followingChrist, we get tastes.
He does In his compassion, hegives us tastes.
But along the way of followingChrist, what's happening is our
(22:40):
yearning for the wedding feastof the Lamb, which is the
ultimate satisfaction of ourevery yearning.
Our yearning for that eternalwedding banquet increases.
And one of my heroes in theChristian life, in the Catholic
world we call her Saint Teresaof Avila she got to the point of
yearning so profoundly for themarriage of the Lamb that she
(23:01):
said I die because I do not dieLike.
She was so overcome by thispassionate hunger for the
consummation of the marriage ofthe lamb that she, she, she just
wanted.
She wanted nothing other thanthat, and she died because she
(23:22):
didn't die.
She said the pain of thelonging for heaven became
overwhelming and I just wantedto die so I could fulfill my
yearning.
And I died because I didn't die.
Wow, that's a sign that we areon the way, not that our hunger
(23:44):
is diminishing, but that ourhunger is being infinitized.
It's being stretched to thepoint of infinity right.
And we have this imagery alsofrom the Song of Songs, where
the lover in the Song of Songs,which represents all of us,
(24:04):
right, the church, the bride,the bride, is in the bridal
chamber and she is longing forconsummation and the bridegroom
is on his way and she undresses.
She undresses in the bridalchamber, basically saying to the
bridegroom am ready for union,I am ready to come together, and
(24:25):
the bridegroom, who representschrist ultimately in the song of
songs, peers through the windowand and she catches a glimpse
of him and then, to the surpriseof everyone who's following the
story, he turns around andleaves.
And you're like what, what,what?
(24:51):
The bride is aching and piningfor consummation, she's taking
off her clothes, the bridegroomappears and then he turns around
and leaves.
The bridegroom appears and thenhe turns around and leaves.
And saint after saint over thecenturies, reflecting on this
mysterious passage in the Songof Songs, and how does this
refer to Christ and the church,and why would Christ ever do
(25:12):
this to anyone?
Saint after saint has said andhere I quote Augustine, this is
his way of putting it, but manyother have said similar things
the bridegroom leaves, why?
To stretch our desire?
And he says imagine that yourheart is a purse and the purse
(25:33):
is too small to put the giftwithin it.
The leather of the purse has tobe stretched to have the
capacity to receive so big agift, so great a gift.
I said earlier we all have thekapax dei, the capacity for God.
(25:53):
But what has happened withoriginal sin?
Christ called it hardness ofheart.
The capacity to receive God hasshrunken.
Right, the leather is alltightened up, if you will, from
hardness of heart.
And that leather needs to bemade supple and it needs to be
(26:16):
stretched so that we have againthe full capacity to receive the
infinite love that God wants topour into us.
And that process of stretchingone's desires, that process of
infinitizing one's desires, canbe agonizing.
And so St Paul talks aboutgroaning in the Spirit, right
(26:42):
Prayers that are too deep forwords.
When you are in touch, when youreally seek to answer honestly
the question that Jesus asks usall at the beginning of the
Gospel of John what do you want?
If we are honest about thatquestion, it will send you into
(27:04):
groaning prayer, where you aregroaning in your yearning for
what you really yearn for.
If you are not groaning in youryearning, if there is not a cry
of your heart to be filled.
Right, my soul cries for you, Ilong for you in my body and my
(27:29):
soul, says the psalmist, my bodypines for you, says the
psalmist.
My soul cries out for theliving God.
Right, that is a cry, that is agroan, that is an ache, that is
a yearning that only God canfill.
And again I'll say it Thanks beto God in this life.
(27:50):
Through faith, we get tastes offulfillment.
But any Christian who says Igave my life to Christ and I was
totally satisfied and I'venever yearned for anything at
all, ever since that moment, Idon't believe him, not for a
moment.
I don't believe him.
That is a stagnated journey,right there, you're not on the
(28:14):
journey of the infinitizing ofdesire.
Now, if someone were to say tome let me qualify what I'm
saying, so we're clear.
Let me qualify what I'm saying,so we're clear.
If someone were to say to me Ilive with a steady, underlying
joy because of the hope thatChrist has given me and hope as.
(28:36):
St Paul tells us does notdisappoint.
Okay, I'm with you brother, I'mwith you, sister.
I believe that, because that iswhat we're given, but notice it
is is what we're given, butnotice it is hope that we're
given, and we don't hope forthings we already have.
As St Paul tells us.
Right, we hope for that whichis to come, and the kingdom is
(28:56):
among us, it is true, but it'snot yet in its fullness.
And so, along the way of ourfollowing Christ, we are going
to feel the longing for thefullness of the coming of the
kingdom, and that is what I meanby the infinite, infinitization
of desire.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Welcome everybody to our podcast.
That was preview.
Now we haven't even gotten intothe topic at hand, but it's all
related.
It's all related with it and Iappreciate it, because I, I, I
(29:42):
forget my longing and I and I,honestly I, I forget that it's
good to long and that it's goodto feel the ache, because when I
feel the ache, my, I think whatI've been trained in, what our
culture trains us to, is getaway from the ache.
Yes, yes, numb it and um, yeah,numb it.
And I think the, the smartphone, has um oh yeah, it's a big
(30:06):
numbing agent yeah, and and the.
The illusion of infinitegratification, instant and
infinite gratification online,has just exacerbated that but
but.
But it leaves us withpermission.
So when I get done doomscrolling, which I don't do as
much anymore I got rid of mymost of the, the, the, uh, what
(30:28):
my smartphone can do because ofthis.
But when I get done with doomscrolling and find myself so
flipping hungry, and empty um,it's actually a wonderfully good
thing, like, yeah, cause that's, that doesn't satisfy.
I'm so far from satisfied.
Yeah, thank you brother.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
All right.
The early Christians tell usprayer is nothing other than
becoming a longing for God.
That's prayer.
Prayer is becoming that longingfor God, feeling that longing
and learning how to aim it atwhat we really long for the
(31:09):
living God.
And one of my favoritescripture verses I think it's
Psalm, is it Psalm 119?
I might be getting that wrong,but it's.
I treasure your promises in myheart, o Lord, lest I sin
against you.
Because if I feel that ache, ifI feel that hunger and I do not
(31:31):
have faith that God isultimately going to satisfy that
hunger, well, I am going totake satisfaction into my own
hands.
That's the lest I sin againstyou part, right.
But if I treasure his promises,I can feel that ache more.
I can feel that ache.
I can stay in that ache if Ireally open my ache to you and
(31:53):
treasure your promise.
What is your promise?
Your promise is that all whocome to me, come to me, all you
who are thirsty, come to me, allyou who are hungry, and you
will not hunger again, you willnot thirst again.
Now, that's a promise.
Jesus is not saying you're notgoing to hunger again in this
life, because we do hunger againin this life, right, but he's
(32:16):
talking about the consummationof the marriage of the Lamb.
In the consummation of themarriage of the lamb we will not
hunger or thirst, but in thislife we hunger and we thirst,
and that hunger and thirst, ifit doesn't become prayer, it
will become sin yeah, whoa sorry, I zoned out for half a second
(32:43):
and I got what you're saying.
If it doesn't become prayer, itwill become sin and it will
become sin in two manners eitherthrough the numbing out of our
hearts or through pursuing falseinfinities.
And jesus laments the numbingout of the heart when he says I
(33:07):
sang a dirge and you did notweep.
I played the flute and you didnot dance.
That's a hard heart, that's aheart that's numbed out.
It's a heart that doesn't feelwhat it really feels.
Right, we've numbed out.
And a heart that is taking itssatisfactions to finite
(33:27):
pleasures.
It's taking the yearning forinfinite satisfaction to finite
pleasure.
Well, that's where we getaddiction right.
Addiction happens when we aimour desire for infinite joy at
finite pleasures never satisfy.
So we think we need more andmore and more and more and more.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Yeah, yeah yeah, and listeners, I, for those of you
who who resonate with that andsay, yeah, I, that's what's
happened to me.
I I keep going back to thisstuff and I know it doesn't
satisfy me and I it's.
I feel beat up because I keepgoing back to this stuff and I
know it doesn't satisfy me and Iit's.
I feel beat up because I keepgoing back to this.
Um, there's no condemnation inwhat christopher's saying.
The it's invitation likecorrect, correct.
(34:11):
Recognize even that that yourown dissatisfaction with what
you're doing, your own lamentingwhat you're doing, is part of
the goodness of your heartcalling out for something better
yes, yes just just begin therejust stay right in there.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
stay, listen to your pain.
That's what I say to people.
Listen to your pain.
Pain is instructive, right, andthis is why numbing ourselves
out is very dangerous, because,you know, let's just draw a
parallel with physical pain Ifyou numb your hand and it's on a
(34:46):
hot stove, you won't know it'son a hot stove, so you'll keep
it on the hot stove without evenknowing it and you'll do
serious damage to your hand.
Right, that pain tells you youshouldn't be doing that.
Our emotional and our spiritualpain is just as instructive.
It's telling us something ain'tright.
(35:07):
I'm giving my heart tosomething that's damaging me, or
I have given my heart tosomething that's damaged me.
I've believed some lie, and somuch of the journey of the
Christian life is undoing thelies we've believed and
(35:28):
reorienting our desire towardswhat we really desire talking
about listening to your pain, Iwant to make one clarification
that that does not mean umcoming coming underneath, uh
(35:48):
condemnation or accusation no,no, it does not, you are
absolutely correct that that'lldo just the opposite.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
So we um, and and sometimes, just to be fair,
sometimes it can be difficult torecognize, especially when
you're in the midst of it,difficult to recognize the
difference between is this justnatural consequence from going
to that old dirty water that?
I've been drinking from or isthis the enemy?
Attacking and accusing me andlisteners, you may need help.
(36:16):
You may need help discerning.
I know I did.
I needed people to say that isnot from you, that's not from
the Lord, that's from the enemy.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Needed people to say that is not from you, that's not
from the Lord, that's from theenemy.
Yeah, I think that one of thescripture verses that comes to
me in making this very importantclarification that you're
making, josh and I'm glad you'remaking it, because I know how
easy it is to fall under thosevoices as well the scripture
that comes to me is the womancaught in adultery.
I do not condemn you, I do notcondemn you.
And right before that, or rightin that same context, we see
(36:47):
that beautiful line Jesus wasalone with the woman.
That's so important.
We need to be with the Lord,without other eyes, without
anybody else's eyes on us, justalone with the Lord, where we
are not tempted to look at whatother people are saying.
And that's where the voice ofcondemnation comes from right.
(37:11):
Everybody in that crowd wantedto throw a stone at her right.
And those voices go away.
Jesus is alone with the woman.
And then we can hear I do notcondemn you, but also go and sin
.
No more.
Right.
But what is sin here?
Why was she committing adultery?
(37:32):
Why did she take her hunger andher thirst to this illicit
relationship?
What is she really yearning for?
And now we're circling back towhat we originally wanted to
talk about in this podcast.
It's not just turn away fromsexual sin, but what am I
turning toward?
(37:53):
Right, what had this woman beenlooking for?
She had been looking for thelove of a man, for the love of a
man.
Well, whom has she encountered?
Right here, she encountered thelove of the man.
That is the only love that cansatisfy the hunger and thirst
(38:14):
that she had.
This is again a metanoia moment.
It's a redirection of her heartand her hunger towards that
which really satisfies.
Think also of the woman at thewell, when Jesus says go get
your husband.
Well, what's that all about?
Go get your husband?
(38:35):
Well, jesus is trying to pointout to her where she has been
taking her thirst.
Right, she's been taking herthirst to all of these imperfect
lovers.
She had been married five timesand the guy she's with now,
number six, is not her husband.
Well, guess what?
Six is the imperfect biblicalnumber.
(38:57):
You've been taking your thirstto all of these imperfect lovers
.
What's the perfect biblicalnumber?
Josh seven.
Who's her seventh lover?
Speaker 1 (39:09):
right there, right there right there.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
If you knew the gift that I wanted to give you, you
would ask me for a drink and Iwould give you a water that
wells up in you to the infinite,to the eternal, to everlasting
life.
I'm number seven.
I'm your perfect lover.
Bring your thirst to me and letme satisfy it.
(39:33):
That's the living hope thatJesus gives us.
It's a living hope.
Now that woman I'm utterlyconvinced, both the woman caught
in adultery and the woman atthe well, I'm utterly convinced
both of them, that day,experienced a real taste of
fulfillment.
But it's not the ultimatefulfillment until we arrive at
(39:57):
the marriage of the Lamb.
So we need to continue to makeacts of faith.
I treasure your promise in myheart, o Lord, lest I sin
against you.
I treasure your promise in myheart, o Lord, lest I sin
against you.
You have promised me thatyou're going to satisfy my every
hunger and thirst.
You have promised me this Itreasure your promise in my
(40:18):
heart, o Lord, because if Idon't treasure that promise, I'm
going to take that hungersomewhere else or I'm going to
shut it down, and either way I'mgoing to sin against you.
But I treasure your promise inmy heart, o Lord, lest I sin
against you.
Open wide your mouth and I willfill it, says the Lord.
Open wide your mouth and I willfill it, says the Lord.
(40:39):
Believe that Psalm 81, if I'mnot mistaken.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Okay, with that, we got to.
We got to pause because we knowwe're hitting our time for this
week, but, listeners, come backnext week.
We're going to continue thisconversation with Christopher
West and we're going to get to.
How do you glorify God in yourbody?
Is it a momentary decision?
Is it a process?
Come back next week for more.
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