Recovery Fatigue

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, welcome back to the Becoming Whole podcast.
My name is Aaron Taggart.
I'm one of our spiritualcoaches here at Regeneration, as
well as one of our fulltherapeutic disclosure guides.
I'm so glad you're tuning intoday, because I have been
looking forward to thisconversation with today's guest
for quite some time.
Our guest today is Dan Drake, atrusted voice in the field of

(00:22):
sexual addiction recovery,betrayal trauma and healing for
couples.
Dan is a licensed marriage andfamily therapist, a certified
sex addiction therapist andsupervisor, the founder of the
Banyan Group, a therapy andcoaching practice that
specializes in betrayal trauma,compulsive sexual behavior and
couples recovery.
And the co-author of severalbooks and workbooks designed to

(00:45):
help both strugglers andbetrayed partners find their way
toward restoration.
Dan has spent over 20 yearswalking alongside individuals
and couples in some of theirdarkest moments, offering hope,
practical tools and a pathforward.
He's known for hiscompassionate, clear-eyed
approach to rebuilding trust,navigating the complexity of

(01:05):
recovery and addressing the deepwounds that drive unwanted
behaviors.
Today, we're going to be talkingwith Dan about some of the
struggles men face in recoveryThings like recovery fatigue and
dealing with the shift in powerafter disclosure, the pull of
shame in the healing process andthe temptation to bypass the

(01:25):
hard work of rebuilding safety,and while this conversation is
geared toward men in recovery,if you're a partner who's
experienced betrayal, we trustyou'll find this episode
meaningful and supportive aswell.
So let's dive in.
Dan, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
Thank you, Aaron.
So great to join.
So appreciate what you do.

Speaker 1 (01:48):
Thanks, man.
Yeah, it's so good to have youon here.
I just knew you were the guy tobe able to talk with some of
these things about.
I mean, I was introduced to youactually a couple years ago
doing some diving into some ofthe full therapeutic disclosure
guide training that you dothrough Kintsugi Partners, which

(02:10):
you, you know, co-founded withJanice Caudill, you guys
co-authored.
You know the material that weuse for the disclosures we do
through regeneration and theyhave just been so helpful and so
, yeah, I'm super thankful to beable to share this space with
you today.
Brother, so glad let's dive in.
Yeah, let's do it, but beforewe do, dan, can you just share
with our listeners a little bitabout who you are?

(02:32):
I mean, I know I just gave along, long list of some things
there, but who you are a littlebit about you know the work that
you do and what you find mostmeaningful about it.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
What you find most meaningful about it.
Yeah, that's great.
You know, when you just askedthat, the first thought I had
was I could tell you a bunch ofstuff about my practice.
But you did a lot of that, sothat's a lot of what I do.
Who am I?
I'm a human being, first of all.
You know, child of God is thefirst obvious place place I.

(03:09):
I I'm a.
I'm someone who is constantlyseeking to grow and each and
every day, to keep growing,becoming a better version of
myself myself, my family, mykids, I think, and that's so
important Um, being a father,being a husband, and when I fail
and when I screw up, and when I, you know, is to to get back up
and keep going.
Just, you know, I think there'snone are perfect, and that's.
I think there's something somuch about you know what my wife

(03:31):
and I are able to when we, whenwe uh, we have this thing.
I don't know why I'm sayingthis right now, but when one of
us says screws up and sayssomething or, you know, does
something that hurts the other,we have, we have a thing called
a redo and we literally there'sbeen times where I've come home
and I didn't do a good job of,you know, after sessions long
sessions, and I didn't do a goodjob, you know, discharging

(03:52):
energy or you know, really kindof centering myself before
coming back, and I find myselfsnapping at my wife and there've
been times I've literally goneback outside, called her redo
for myself, do over, andliterally come back inside and I
think for me, I'm someone whowants to keep getting back up.
I'm trying to do more andbetter, but that's what I really

(04:12):
seek to do become a betterversion of myself.
That's so important.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yeah, man, I love that, and I'll tell you, we're
no strangers to the redo in theTaggart household either.
So, yeah, I love that, awesomeman.
Well, let's go ahead and jumpin.
I want to begin talking about atopic that I know we were just
dialoguing before we startedhere.

(04:36):
This is what we're going totalk about first is something
that we haven't heard talkedabout a lot, but yet we
experienced when we're workingwith clients, and that is
recovery fatigue.
And so, dan, I'm just curious,even like how would you maybe
even kind of describe recoveryfatigue?

Speaker 2 (04:56):
Yeah, I, I, I appreciate that.
I was just saying, you know,before we started, like I don't
think I've heard anyone talkabout this individually before
we started, like I don't thinkI've heard anyone talk about
this individually, like we justwe said, but I think I see, I
see this a lot early on.
People are kind of doingeverything but the kinship sink
they're, they're trying to doeverything.
You know, they're oftentimesand this has been my experience,

(05:16):
I don't know if this is yours,but typically the betrayed
partner has done a deep dive,finding information there,
everything you know they've,they found out, they know more,
they probably know more thanI'll ever know.
You know they've already foundinformation.
They found like resources, andoftentimes they're playing them
to their, you know, to theirpartner, their husband, or to

(05:38):
the struggler.
And sometimes you know, andthen the they're kind of the
betrayer, the struggler to do atthat point but like, okay, yeah
, I'll do whatever, I'll dowhatever it takes and kind of
take on all these things and, Ithink, trying to manage just the
kind of chaos and instabilityof early recovery, figuring out
a new way of operating in theworld that doesn't involve

(05:58):
addiction.
Things can get pretty intenseor blow up in the family or be
really inconsistent, trying tokeep on your regular day job at
the same time and trying to addall this other things.
So it's, I think people getreally flustered early on.
They're trying to do a lot ofstuff.
I've seen this, I'm trying tothink.
I've seen, I've definitely seenit play out later on I'm just

(06:19):
thinking earlier.
When people start their healing, you know their recovery
journey.
I feel like that's where I'veseen this kind of play out more
often than not and I don't knowwhat you'd say, but I see it.
There's a few things.
I don't know if I have likedata for this, but I've seen

(06:39):
people.
There's resentment that canstart to come.
Sometimes the struggler feelsresentful or they start to feel
victimized about it.
They feel like if they're over,not just overwhelmed, but
they're sort of a bad attitudeabout recovery stuff and then
they either become passive,aggressive or sometimes
aggressive.
As a result, they're not doingwell.

(07:00):
I mean actually think.
Now that I'm thinking about it,I think of you know, michael Dye
, and the faster scale that puredesire uses.
I think there's what'sexhaustion is right before we
last on a faster scale.
So people are, you know they're, they're, they're either burnt
out or they're kind of exhausted, trying to go all in with this.
Um, I think what I've seenlater on, where I see this and I

(07:24):
don't know we can obviouslytalk about earlier versus later
but I think where I see thislater is where the men I work
with are primarily doingrecovery for their partner and
they haven't really taken it onfor themselves.
That's actually pretty critical, because it's not uncommon.

(07:46):
Most guys I work with are tryingto restore their relationship.
They're trying to do whateverit takes.
They're, you know they'rethey're grasping at straws to
heal and restore, but theyhaven't really said this is for
me, and without like this is forme to live a new life and like
I, I need this, I can't.
I can't, I have to do recoveryfor myself.
You know we all have the sameamount of hours in the day.
No one has more, no one hasless, and I, I'm not.

(08:10):
You know what's my motivationwhen I'm doing something, if
it's oh, I have to check allthese boxes so that I can, you
know, get to a certain result,versus I get to.
You know what's the differencein mentality?
I get to do these things tobecome the best version of
myself, to become the man that Ialways wanted to be and I try
to present to everybody.
But I was really actuallyhiding a lot of this stuff

(08:33):
because I didn't want people tosee what was happening behind
the scenes and what if I couldactually be in integrity, full
integrity, and I could live alife that was free.
And all these things that I getto do in recovery maybe that
motivation Okay, and maybemeetings are part of that or
doing groups or doing coachingor you know, adding other stuff
Like I get to these are thethings that help me continue to
become that person.

(08:54):
That's such a different mindsetand I don't one.
If I'm checking boxes andtrying to do these things to,
you know, get my wallet back andstop pestering me.
That's going to be a differentmotivation.
When man I get to, I get to dothese things to to thrive and
become a better human being.
So, yeah, that's a couple, alot of thoughts yeah, no, it's,
that's great.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
and I would say, yeah , it's same for me, like I, I
definitely see this especiallyearly in or in recovery.
I do see it later, in recoverytoo, but in different ways, just
like you kind of talked about,and and I share with clients all
the time that, first andforemost, your, your recovery,
has to be for yourself.
Yes, it's important to you,know, to try to bring, you know,

(09:37):
what you can bring to healingfor that relationship, but
you're only going to be able tobring so much to that,
especially if you haven't reallydone a lot of the healing work.
You know that's that's behindthat too, and and I think, like
you said, like later, you know,I think I do I do see some of
that kind of almost likeresentment or just bitterness,
like gosh, like I've, like, I'vedone all these things.

(09:57):
Or even, like you know, like indisclosure, like when a couple
goes, if they go throughdisclosure, you know, thinking
like man, the disclosure shouldhave been enough, or something
like that.
And it's like you know, no, you, you know you have this
opportunity, you know, to, likeyou said, you know, really
invest so much in yourself.
And that's really what it'sabout.
It's an investment for healingfor yourself that you can bring

(10:19):
a more healed self to thatrelationship and bring healing
into your relationship, morehealed self to that relationship
and bring healing into yourrelationship.
So you know, kind of to so sortof in that vein, you know how
can a man tell the differencebetween healthy weariness from
doing the hard work andunhealthy burnout in recovery?

Speaker 2 (10:41):
I think a big soul question is again going back to
this who am I doing this for?
Well, what am I doing it for?
Am I trying to appease my wifeby doing all these things so
that she stops being so mad atme?
And then, if I do it, then I'mhoping that she's going to
settle down and we'll go back tolife the way it was.
I don't know.

(11:01):
I feel like that's going tolead to burnout, weariness.
I think it's motivation, likeyou know, pain and suffering,
for example.
I can have a lot of painwithout suffering.
I feel like weariness.
It is a lot of work.
Recovery is a lot of work andit's hard work.
It's hard work to changepatterns of coping with life and

(11:22):
you know these.
Whatever led someone down theseunwanted paths in the first
place?
You know it takes a lot of workand a lot of dedicated effort.
And but I I think there's adifference with with what's my
intention, what's my motivation?
And if I'm really, if I'mreally in it and you know that
comes.
I think it shifts over time.
But if, if it's starting withI'm just doing this, but my
heart's not really in it, man,but if, if it's starting with
I'm just doing this, but myheart's not really in it, man,

(11:44):
that's going to lead to super,that's going to lead to burnout.
I just think I don't see, causeI can do a lot of work.
I was just thinking I ran.
I've run a couple of marathons.
I don't know why people runmarathons, why, why would I run
a marathon?
I mean, after about mile 18,it's mental, it's not this.

(12:05):
My body like it's kind of done.
My body's like why are werunning?
Still, let's stop.
There's this thing.
I think I can, but what it?
What was really cool for me Imean, I had that experience a
couple times is there's my, my,my will actually keeps me moving
forward and it's, you know, I'm.
That's all I want to say, that'sall self, self here, like this
is obviously more.
You know, I can't do this alone.
Recovery the recovery isdifferent because I, but I think

(12:27):
there's a my motivation andthen I think there's a surrender
that you need to have as well.
Like I can let other peopleinto my life, I can learn how to
not have to be a hero.
I can.
I can actually be um, learn howto take wisdom from other

(12:48):
people and and and be be honestand fully, fully focused.
But I think there's somethingabout like where my mindset is
is so critical, and then I thinkthe mindset of openness and
surrender to God and to othersaround me is so.
I think that's so pivotal toactually not creating burnout.
Yeah, one thought of boundaries.
I don't know if we want to gothere.

Speaker 1 (13:08):
Totally.
Actually, I actually have aquestion around boundaries in in
this process, especially forthe for a partner maybe that's
been been betrayed and earlieryou mentioned and I don't know
if this is exactly where you'regoing with it, so we can kind of
tie in what you're thinkingwith boundaries too.
But just kind of, you know,like this idea, like you
mentioned, you know so oftenthat you know that you know that

(13:31):
often the betrayed partner youknow finds out all this
information and it's like here,do this, do this, I want you to
check this out, check this out.
Right, is there like a point intime, like I was, like what is
a healthy boundary around sortof sharing information,
especially, as you know, maybethe, the struggler, kind of gets
going into some recovery tokind of avoid maybe some of that

(13:54):
?
You know, I don't knowresentment or bitterness, or
like I'm doing everything I canlike, like you know and again I
know that's a personal attitudetoo like, but how would we like,
yeah, how do we frame that upfor a couple?

Speaker 2 (14:08):
Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
It's such a, it's such a bigtopic because, at least my
experience, most of the men Iwork with they, they, they get a
list of boundaries and theyfeel two main things they feel
controlled or they feel punished.
That they have that's theirexperience a lot of times.
What I try to shift the frame,these aren't for control.

(14:29):
They're not done well.
I think a partner boundary isnot for that purpose.
The partner boundary list, ifthey are willing to share, that
is to me is like such a gift.
If your partner's willing togive you boundaries and share,
these are the things that willhelp her.
Basically, she's giving you aroadmap towards rebuilding
safety back for her and therelationship Like that's.

(14:49):
That's a gift.
You don't have to read betweenthe lines.
She's literally telling youthese things.
If you do these things, thatwill help me rebuild safety.
So to me that there's somethingthat's so powerful about that.
And then you know, double bonus, if you are willing to follow
through with those boundaries.
How we rebuild trust afterbetrayal is your partner will be

(15:10):
seeing your words and youractions line up.
Do you say you're going to doit and then you follow up with
it so we can start to rebuildsafety and trust by honoring the
boundaries.
The thing that I've found overthe years really, really helpful
is to slow down, instead ofmost guys I've talked to, when
they get a boundary list, theyfeel backed into a corner.
They feel like they have nooption but to say yes to these

(15:32):
things.
What I do try to see is okay,what's realistic for you, what
is what can you do?
What are you willing to do?
And these things, not thatyou're going to start to start
again.
I think this is a marathon, nota sprint.
This isn't something.
I think that's where I see.
Going back to the previousthing, I think sometimes people
start this as like a sprint andyou get burnt out pretty quickly

(15:56):
.
We have to be able to conserveenergy.
Can I be doing these in sixmonths from now?
And if there's some things Ithink of this example, for
example, a partner had aunderstandable boundary for for
her husband.
It was because she needed.
Transparency was the biggestvalue and she needed
responsiveness because he wouldlike.
I think he would turn his phoneoff and not be available when

(16:18):
he was acting out.
So for her she wanted.
Her boundary of her request wasif I call you, I need you to
answer by the third ring was herrequest.
And I'm like, okay, so I getwhere she's trying to go with it
.
And he's like, yes, I'll dothat.
And I said, okay, just to playdevil's advocate.
Do you have meetings where you,let's say, you're in a coaching

(16:40):
session and then she calls toanswer, or you're in another
meeting where you are?
There any meetings at workwhere you couldn't answer?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.
Well, then we can't just agreeto that boundary right as it's
written, because she's going totake that at face value.
If you're saying you're goingto call, if she calls you,
you're going to answer it.
Well, so what?

(17:01):
What?
I?
What I suggested there was um,honor the boundary, but are
there other things you can do?
So if you know you're going tobe unavailable, you'll let her
know I'm going to be doing thisthing for this period of time.
I will bookend it, I'll textyou before, I'll text you after.
So is there a yes we can provide?
He also says I can't do some ofthis, but I'm willing to
provide safety in this way.

(17:21):
And I guess that's an exampleof if you know you have a
boundary list and you know, likeI could probably have the
energy for for one meetingtonight, but doing two or three
just is going to be too much forme.
We have to communicate that onsome level because you know, I
think if you can say Iunderstand these things would be

(17:43):
really helpful.
I'm willing to do this and I'm,I want, and you can do with
empathy and compassion for thepartner.
You know, give that to thepartner but say I think this is
what's realistic, what I can do.
I'm willing to add these otherthings.
Or, if I'm going to do thesemeetings, there's some maybe
things around the house that Iwon't be able to do as much of.
There's a negotiation with thekids or with other

(18:04):
responsibilities.
Potentially, potentially doesthat work?
And you know there's a, there'sa back and forth instead of a
flat yes, I'll do it all andthen and then try to be superman
or hero.
I think a lot of guys try to dothat.
I'll do it all, but then thenthe weight of it like I, it's
not sustainable.
Yeah, you see that, but I thinkthen then, if I can say and

(18:25):
I've just seen this play out toomany times if the partner's
dictating recovery for yousolely and they don't know
you're just doing everythingthey're asking you to do.
I actually don't see thatproviding safety, because then
the partner there's something inthe betrayed partner's side.
They're like are you just doingit because I'm telling you to
Do you?
Where are you really?

(18:46):
You know, what are your, what'syour recovery?
Look like, what are the hillsyou're willing to fight on.
And I sometimes see when theguys I've worked with will say,
and with compassion, I'm notsaying, well, I can't do that.
That's ridiculous.
Obviously, don't say that.
But when it's, this is what Ithink I can realistically do.
Does this work for you or canwe figure out a way to make this
work?
I feel like that's a lot moresustainable for someone when,

(19:08):
when they're trying to honor thepartner's boundaries, to
rebuild safety or you know,maybe, maybe this level of it I
can't do, but I, but I certainlythat's.
I understand that important toyou and that makes sense to me.
Here's what I think I could do.
Does that, does that providethe same level of safety?
I don't know, like that's.

Speaker 1 (19:31):
Yeah, no, that's man, that's so, that's so good.
And you know I I'm sitting here, I can't, I can't escape kind
of this.
You know concept that eugenepeterson had about the like the
long obedience in the samedirection.
You know really kind of this.
You know this process is kindof this long, like walking this
out, growing, learning,implementing, you know ref, you
know bringing back to therelationship, like all of these
things like play into oneanother and it is uh, it is

(19:53):
long-term, it's not just a short, you know short-term thing.

Speaker 2 (19:56):
And I was just saying like on the I just I, I can
feel when I talked to thebetrayed partner about this.
I mean that that I canunderstand.
If anyone's listening, I can.
I can appreciate on thebetrayed partner side how scary
that would be to get potentialnegotiation with boundaries
Because you may have experiencedmanipulation or gaslighting in

(20:17):
the past, or this is not meantwhere addict becomes the victim
and I can't do any of it.
And it's not meant to absolvethemselves of responsibility.
That's not at all what this is.
It's to try to say what's whatfeels sustainable and and maybe
they actually can't handle morethan they're saying they are and

(20:37):
let's try it out.
Or maybe there's a let's try itfor a period of time and
re-discuss the where things areand revisit it.
And you know, maybe we changethings because you you know,
janice Cottle and I, in ourdisclosure workbooks we talked
about guardrail boundariesversus traffic cone boundaries.
You know guardrails if I'm on amountain pass, those are fixed.

(21:00):
Hopefully we want those thingsfixed so that they're going to
protect going off the ledge, Ithink early on.
And there might be someguardrail boundaries that people
need to set.
You know partnersunderstandably need to set, but
there's a lot of, especiallyearly on, traffic cone
boundaries where you know wehave, at least in Los Angeles,
there's all kinds of potholeseverywhere.
The roads are terrible, so youknow we might need traffic cones

(21:22):
to divert and provide immediatesafety, but that might not be
forever.
So some of these things, I thinkyou know what, what we might
need early on, in the first.
You know, 90 days, six months,year may may be different, and
having that constant, ordiscussion at least not constant
, but you know, revisiting ofthese things and really, and the

(21:43):
addict taking disability, howdo I, am I, how am I providing
safety for my partner?
Is this working?
Are you feeling safer with mybehaviors?
You know, and that should beshowing up.
If it's not, then we've gotother problems and things to
consider yeah, that's such animportant posture, right like
that.

Speaker 1 (22:01):
You know that because it really and you've probably
seen this as well like thatbetrayed partner is really
leaning into her spouse for partof that healing.
It's an invitation, reallyright, to show up with that
behavioral truth and to show herthat you're doing what you're

(22:21):
saying and you're showing upwith empathy, attunement and and
really you know, trying to tohelp her heal 100%.
Yeah, how about?
Okay, this one?
So in specifically todisclosure, is there anything
that you can think of you knowoutside of you know, maybe men

(22:42):
kind of in recovery or anyway,mistakes that guys might make
after disclosure that contributeto fatigue?
Oh yeah, Helping them to showup with that empathy and
attunement for their partner.
And specifically after yeah likespecifically after kind of
going through a disclosure.

Speaker 2 (23:03):
One huge thing and I learned this the hard way.
I think most people I've walkedthrough disclosure with not say
it outright, but understandablyit feels like, okay, we do this
big thing, we do disclosure.
This feels like a finish lineand so we'll get through
disclosure, and I've seen thisplay out and again, I think we

(23:23):
wrote about this in theworkbooks because unfortunately,
I've learned the hard way thatI didn't prepare people well
enough for this in the past,that when we literally have an
exercise called it's going toget worse before it gets better,
and so to prepare, you know, ifI'm sharing all information in
a disclosure, usually most menfeel you know, they, they feel

(23:47):
both unburdened.
There's a relief that they feeland then also fear.
Now what you know, nowsomething.
This is the most terrifyingthing I can think of sharing all
this, this stuff that I wastrying to keep secret for myself
and from everybody.
Especially the person I lovethe most is trying to keep this
stuff secret.
I'm actually going to share itall and this, all the core
beliefs come up.

(24:08):
You know I'm unlovable, I'mactually going to share it all
and this, all this poor beliefscome up.
You know I'm unlovable, I'mdefective, I'm unworthy and you
know, if she really knows allthis stuff, how could she
possibly stay with me?
So there's a lot of fear thatcomes up.
But I seen, if we, if for somemen they're like, hey, I did
this big thing and now I wantrest, I want to.
You know they might not say it,but I want to high five, I want

(24:31):
some kudos for doing this bigthing.
And when a partner is hurt andangry and has a lot of questions
, or she sets some even strongerboundaries potentially after
get really themselves, getreactive and resentful, that
like, well, I did all this andthen stuff is still not good
enough for you, you know, nowthere's more.
So I think, sometimes havingeven before doing disclosure,

(24:51):
having the mindset think of itlike disclosure, what it does,
if you think of a buildingmetaphor, we've just started to
set new concrete for a newrelationship.
Now there's no secrets.
We've got a foundation that wecan build from.
We've got the building to do.
Still, we've got to build thisnew house, the structure,

(25:12):
together.
It's a huge step.
We can't have that without thisis, you know, we're building it
on solid ground now, butwithout that we can't.
You know, we still have tobuild a house after.
So I think there's somethingabout that.
Yes, take some time toappreciate and talk to other men
about this, because they willgive support.
I think that's really important.

(25:33):
But I think that post-disclosureperiod can be really, you know,
sometimes partners need morespace after disclosure.
Sometimes that's in home,sometimes they need separations.
Sometimes, you know, whateverMaybe they had a sex life prior
to disclosure or now doesn'twant to be touched at all, you

(25:53):
know, not even non-sexually,like they don't I don't, don't
touch me.
So sometimes that can feelreally discouraging.
I get I think we're talkingburnout or fatigue, but I think,
just if we can know this is allnormal and this, this doesn't
last forever, in that I, I don'tknow, that can help.
A lot of guys say this is, thisis a normal part of the process,
and don't, don't getdisheartened, don't lose hope.

(26:14):
Um, and in some ways I wasthinking of again when I I don't
know when I would go, when I'dbe out on a run and I would see
a hill coming up.
My body wants to slow down,like, oh, there's this hill.

(26:35):
What I, what I tended to do,though I'd actually start
speeding up right at the base ofthe hill as a way of like I got
that and I feel like there'ssomething about that energy.
So, disclosure, we want to takeour foot off the gas.
If we can keep that mindsetlike no, this is now we're
getting into the next phase,like yeah, there's some hurdles

(26:55):
we got to jump over and there'ssome big ones, but this is a big
deal.
Let's keep that momentum going,not stall it and slow down.
So if you can actually redoubleyour efforts, it might sound
like the opposite of recoveryfatigue, but again, I think the
mindset, if you expect itredouble your efforts it might
sound like the opposite ofrecovery fatigue, but again, I
think the mindset, if you expectit and I'm still, I'm going to
get all the supports, I'm goingto keep leaning in.
That's when guys kind oftransition versus saying like

(27:18):
okay, we're going to take abreak, I'll have like a month
off from all this and we pickback up.
That's not what's going tohappen realistically, yeah, yeah
, absolutely no.

Speaker 1 (27:26):
Like that's not what's going to happen
realistically.
Yeah yeah, absolutely no.
Attacking the Hills?
Yeah, I've heard about thatthat way.
You know, I didn't know thatphrase.
Well, I, it's not because I'm arunner I'll tell you that I
threw the shot, put discus andthe hammer, so I called it a
field and track instead of trackfield.
So, yeah, attacking the Hillsbecause of that very thing,

(27:48):
right, knowing man, it's a hill,it's going to require a little
bit more.
So don't coast up it, you know,but try to, you know, try to
attack it.
And then what you were sayingtoo, about sort of and this I'm
getting ahead of myself.
So I think this will kind oftalk about, this will get into
what we're talking about alittle bit later.
But you know, there's that I,in a disclosure, when everything

(28:08):
is out there, I, I have foundthat the, the struggler,
experiences a freedom like he'snever experienced in his life,
because all of the informationis out, he is not holding
anything back any longer and itis kind of like this he's been
underwater, clamoring for abreath, and then he surfaces and
it's the like, like there it is, you know, and but

(28:33):
simultaneously it's almost kindof like in that process, kind of
pulling the spouse underunderwater and not having to try
to kind of navigate that right.

Speaker 2 (28:43):
So two very different experiences of this, of the
same event, and that's hard,it's just that's hard, so hard,
it's so hard and I I guess I'veI just want to say a lot of
compassion because it's foranyone willing to navigate that
and share.
Share the full truth is is hardenough.
Anyone that's that's struggledat least everyone I've talked to

(29:07):
you know they.
There's a lot that they've kepthidden.
I've talked to you know they.
There's a lot that they've kepthidden.
They've tried you know a lot ofthings to stop this and they
ended up keeping secrets, lyingand deceiving and so just being
willing to share it.
It's such, it's such an honorto walk with people through it
and I know it.
I had the luxury of being ableto see that the you know bird's

(29:28):
eye view of what I've seen withother couples, but I know
walking through it it's it's sotough.
So I just appreciate people'sjourneys and willingness to to
keep moving forward in thiswhole thing.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:41):
Yeah, totally.
I mean, I feel so honored to bea part of that process with
couples that we walk, work withyou know, and it like it, like
you said it is, it's such a hardprocess and but seeing what,
what god can do and and just therebuilding in his heart for for
them and for that union andthings, so it's um, yeah, it's
hard but but it's beautiful.
All right, let's um gosh, Ifeel like let's kind of stay.

(30:05):
So we've talked a little bitabout safety.
I'm going to kind of jump intoa little bit more about safety
and sort of kind of this idea ofyou know you and the Rabsmiths,
you know you guys have theintimacy pyramid, which is
absolutely phenomenal and I'veused so many times with clients
and I know so many of ourcoaches at region have done the
same.

(30:26):
So this idea of like bypassinghard work, of rebuilding safety,
and what I see so often in theclients that I work with is that
the, the, the struggler wantsto jump.
So you talked about thatfoundation of truth and then the
next layer is safety and thenafter that is trust.
And I see so often guys,especially in disclosure, you

(30:49):
know, kind of sharing theinformation everything's out
there.
And now they just they want toget back to this place of trust.
So they're, you know, they wantto essentially bypass that hard
work of safety to get to aplace of being trusted again.
Yeah, create that safety.
So.
So what do you think?
Why do you think that men areso often tempted to rush or

(31:30):
bypass that hard work ofrebuilding safety after
disclosure?

Speaker 2 (31:36):
Um, my thought was because it sucks.
It sucks to be sitting in thisplace of not being trusted.
Yeah, it feels terrible.

Speaker 1 (31:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:46):
It's really hard to sit Sometimes and I don't know
if your experience it reflectstheir own shame when they see
their partner in distress.
Or they see their partnerbecause you know feeling pain or

(32:13):
hurt or anger or distrust,because the reality is I don't
want to, I don't want to be thatguy, I don't want to see myself
as that guy I want to be, Iwant to be the other one and
maybe I'm actually becoming that.
That's the thing too that youknow you could be very well a
hundred percent truthful aboutsomething and your partner still
may say that BS to me, but Idon't believe you.

(32:34):
I mean that could be the case.
That, to me, is the place totry not to get defensive and
double down on the truth.
If you can shift it tocompassion and you know Carol
sheets and her help help does ithelp her heal or help them heal
?
I forget which one she talks.
I think it's help her heal.
Um talks about avr.
So knowledge, validate,reassure you may be triggered

(32:57):
and you're like I'm telling thetruth and then you get defensive
.
That's very possible.
But if we can start to shift itwhere it makes perfect sense,
you wouldn't believe me becauseI did lie to you for so long,
for these many years in the past, and I get why you wouldn't
believe me now.
Then reassure, I am telling thetruth and I'm willing to back
that up and you don't have tobelieve me now, but I'm telling
you the truth.
Such a different posture thanI'm telling you the truth.

(33:20):
Why don't you believe me?
It's never going to be enoughfor you and no matter what I do,
you know you're all're, it'snever going to be good enough.
That's a total different energy.
So I feel like those moments.
This is where, yeah, again, whowants to sit seeing, seeing
this mirror reflected back to meof the person I don't want to

(33:42):
be?
But that's where you knowconsistency over time and we
have this phrase.
You know trust is rebuiltthrough consistent, trustworthy
actions over time.
It takes time.
We don't just do it.
Disclosure is huge.
Even if you do, you know youmight even do a polygraph at
disclosure.
That's just a huge deal.

(34:03):
But then your partner getstriggered, or you say a little
white lie about something else,or she catches you doing
something.
It might not be even sexualrelated.
There's there's all thesethings that start to bring up a
lack of trust and fear andanxiety, so, or old patterns
start to come back.
You might not be acting out,but some stuff that was there
withdrawn, withholding,minimization, manipulation, all

(34:26):
that kind of stuff.
So I feel like I don't know foryou, but I feel like most of us
we want to actually come in as ahero and do something really.
You know, I want to go into theburning building and save a
bunch of people and then be thehero and there are some moments
of that in recovery, but mostoften it's the kind of for lack

(34:51):
of better words boring.
What am I doing during theweekdays?
To be more consistent with mywife and family and more present
than I was before and takeresponsibility for when I blow
it?
And, you know, try to love mypartner better and be
trustworthy through actions, notjust words.
You know that there's noshortcut for it.
There just isn't.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
Yeah, yeah, I talk about it just being like.
You know you're learning toshow up differently.
Yeah, yeah, I talk about itjust being like you know you're
learning to show up differently.
You know you've shown up in thepast and maybe it wasn't so
great, you know.
So how can you rewrite that,moving forward, you know?

Speaker 2 (35:22):
by showing up differently.

Speaker 1 (35:30):
Yeah, and yeah, it doesn't have to be the you know
running in and you know savingthe building or the people,
Right, and things like that youknow, but just little things.
Practical things like what areyou know?
Some things like that you know,but just little things.
Practical things like what areyou know?
Some things that that you knowthat you can work on to to
improve in this way and andagain, like you know, and being
proactive in certain ways too,in certain areas too, which is
so helpful, like you know.
I think that gets back to someof that behavioral truth.
Tell you know, you know, myclients all the time that if you

(35:51):
can, if if you can be proactiveand lead some of these harder
conversations or enter in likeacknowledge if she's feeling
triggered, you know, don't shyaway from the things that feel
so uncomfortable, but lean intoit.
You know that's going to you'representing, but you're you're
showing up different.
I love it.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
Yeah, I, this is pretty core.
I don't know if it's a malething or not, but I know,
whatever we're, we're driving bysomething and my partner sees
something and I know she'spotentially triggered.
But let's, I'm going to pretendthat she didn't know, she
didn't see whatever it was.
I'm going to pretend or he justgot, okay, good, she didn't,
she didn't make a big deal of it, we got through that.

(36:32):
Or or an anniversary is comingup, or D day anniversary coming
up, like be proactive.
You know, yes, yes, she mayhave a difficult, it may not go
perfectly in a conversation, shemay have feelings, for sure,
but I, I totally agree.
I think, when you avoid it,just so you don't get a riled up

(36:53):
, just thinking about it anyway,and the fact that, if you can
say, be proactive with it, Ithink those so far, because the
partner, the partner will seethat recognize oh, he's leaning
into something differently thanhe did before, he's not shying
away from it.
It's a big diff.

Speaker 1 (37:07):
That makes a big deal yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think
too, like if they're, if youknow if they're trying too
quickly to sort of bypass thatyou know safety to to regain
that trust.
You know, I think that you knowthat there's noted Right, and so
you know I think it's, you knowit's that showing up

(37:37):
differently, you know how youshow up matters, like it really
matters how you, how you show upand and you don't have to be
perfect, you don't have to knoweverything I mean you're part,
that's part, of the recovery.
You know, I tell guys all thetime the hardest part about this
process and speaking about thedisclosure process is you know
that, after sort of like what'swhat's next, like this is where

(37:59):
you know, like that learning toshow up different and and to be
more empathetic.
Like you know, growing anempathy when you haven't had
much or any is not going toovernight, like it's going to
take some time and so, but butyou need to move towards that.
It's kind of like attacking thehill, right, Sorry, go ahead.
No, no, no, you see it coming,man, you're like man, I suck at

(38:24):
this, I can't do this.

Speaker 2 (38:27):
And then it's like, okay, well, here's the hill,
it's not going anywhere and Igot to go over it, so I can
either moan about it or I canattack the hill and we think of
it like I don't know, like I,again, this might be a male
thing too, but we think like Iscrewed up, I didn't do that
right, I lost the opportunity.
No, try again.

(38:47):
Yeah, you know, unless yourpartner says nope, I mean try
again.
And if you don't, I.
I think the failed opportunityis is if you just say, oh, I,
you know you go into shame, Ican't do this right, or you
start to blame her give itanother shot, try again.
You know.
You know what I really, I I gotdefensive there.
I actually really wish I wouldhave done this.

(39:07):
Can I, can I try it again in adifferent way?
Man, that she may say, no, I'm,I'm done with that conversation
, okay, but she will recognizethe behavioral truth.
You're trying to come, you'retrying to correct your mistakes,
you're trying to show up in amore compassionate, different
way.
That's that's, that's different.

Speaker 1 (39:24):
Yeah, absolutely.
And change isn't easy, right,change, change is hard.
But and here's what too, man,like, if you if especially for
any guy that's done a disclosurethink about the hardest thing
you've ever done.
Well, you just did a disclosure, so you can do hard things.

(39:44):
And I do this exercise where Itry to get them to think about
some of the hard things thatthey've done in their life and
more often than not, they don'tput the disclosure down.
I'm like dude, that wasprobably one of the hardest
things you've ever done and youjust did it.
Like you can do hard things,you can grow in empathy.
You can learn how to show up.
Like you don't know how to showup, it feels overwhelming.

(40:04):
You didn't have that modeledfor you, that's okay.
Like you can learn how to dothat because you can do hard
things, you don't have to shyaway from it, you can lean into
it.

Speaker 2 (40:14):
Yeah, I love that.
That's so powerful.
I was just thinking earlier,too, as a tip partners will
smell ulterior motives a mileaway.
I'm just going to say so ifyou're coming, you're trying to
show empathy, or if you this isanother, maybe obvious thing If
you're trying to ask forforgiveness or you're trying to

(40:36):
own something that you did thatyou screwed up with, but then
you say but in there somewhereand you try to say but you know,
you really weren't, you werereally not.
I don't appreciate how you cameto me.
Like the partner's not going toappreciate that.
Or if they feel like you'rejust doing these things to get
to the result of trust.
If that's the end goal, versusshowing up in a new way, having

(40:58):
a different kind of relationship, that's the way you get to
rebuild.
That's the beauty of this.
I mean.
I think of that intimacypyramid.
Couples are sometimes rebuildingintimacy, sometimes building it
for the first time.
What a gift, first time.
What a gift.
We can relate to each other ina new way that we've never had
this experience before ofactually being fully vulnerable
and being fully seen and known.

(41:19):
I mean, instead of having acurated view, version of myself
that I'm sharing and hoping thatpeople will love me.
Man, what if?
And I see this happen way moreoften than not, I mean almost
always when I share the good,the bad, the ugly, and I'm
vulnerable with it and authenticwith it.
And most partners see that andthey see the vulnerability and

(41:41):
they they don't exploit it.
They don't they actually.
You know it's painful to hearthe trees about sexual betrayal,
but you're fully known, you didsomething now and actually
don't have to hide yourself andshe stayed like that's.
How incredible is that?

Speaker 1 (41:56):
yeah, yeah, oh gosh man, yeah, that's so, that's so
beautiful and yeah, I don't evenknow what else to say that to
that.
Really, I mean it's just, it's,it's remarkable, it really is,
dan, let's, I want to shift thatkind.
You know the last part of ourconversation here Again, you

(42:17):
know, kind of fun to riff withyou on this a little bit before
we started.
But I want to talk a little bitabout this, this, whatever you
want to call it.
We've heard shift in power, youknow, or control or what I don't
know.
You know, but, and specificallyto disclosure and disclosure
dynamics, so many people whohave gone through that feel this

(42:41):
sort of and I'm just going tocall a shift in power.
I don't know that.
I like that, you know, settledon that, but I think it's, you
know, it's easy to wrap yourmind around, I think, for
conversation purpose, but so forfor men, often, like in a
disclosure, there's a shift inthe dynamic in the marriage,
because now all of theinformation is out and they're

(43:03):
not withholding anything.
Their partner knows everythingnow, and so there's this almost
sort of sense of like that powerthat they had or again,
whatever you want to call it,they had something over the
other is gone.
And now sometimes there can belike this feel like I'm, like
I'm lost, I don't know, likewhere's my, where's my place,

(43:25):
like I don't like they.
Just there's this tangibledifference in that dynamic.
How does that shift?
And I don't know if itcontributes to exhaustion, as
we've kind of talked about, ordiscouragement in the recovery
process, but let's just kind oftalk about that for a minute,
just to sort of this shift andand that dynamic.

Speaker 2 (43:46):
Yeah Well, you, you took it in a different area than
I.
I appreciate what you said,cause I I often see getting into
recovery feels like a powerimbalance or difference.
Is that like the partner feelslike they're holding all the
cards, they're the ones in power, they get to call the shots or
set, you know, fundraiser, allthat kind of stuff, and a lot of

(44:09):
guys will feel controlled orpunished again.
They'll feel like sometimes itfeels like a dynamic where it
feels like she's being my momand I have to like be a good boy
or something.
That's that's the, that's thefeeling sometimes the guys have.
They may say that outright orjust have that feeling.
What I often say and I think, Ithink about, I think power,
there is power.
It's healthy power and power isnot a bad thing.

(44:31):
I think of empowerment is abeautiful thing.
I think we think of power likedomination.
That's not in a healthy way,that's not what it's supposed to
be for, even whether that's the, the struggler or the partner,
I don't think this is ever meantto be.
I'm going to dominate you andentitled, kind of deserving.
It's more of an empowerment andthat's the way I see it.

(44:51):
But like, if you think about it.
You know, this is what I sharewith my guys.
How many months, years, decades, were you holding truth?
Were you holding you know,information from your partner?
And if, if, knowledge is power,whether you felt it or not, you
were wielding power for so longin your, your marriage or your
relationship, so long, and thatcould be decades.

(45:13):
So, post discovery, postdisclosure, the goal is to
rebalance it.
But it will feel a bitimbalanced for a while and we
try to give.
What was taken from yourpartner was choices we try to
give partners, especially indisclosure.
We talk about the partners as abunch of choice.
Let's say, if people arechoosing to abstain for a bit

(45:36):
sexually, you know the partneroftentimes will be able to be
the one kind of controlling whatfeels safe, moving forward when
they feel safe.
But more we're shifting it.
The goal to make the ultimategoal of the relationship isn't
to have, you know, her always ina one up position, you always
in a one down position.
That's never the goal, but therebalancing I think that's what

(45:57):
you're saying like there's arebalancing and it feels, really
can feel, lost in it.
You know, I've, I'm doingeverything and it still feels
like you know, like we're notgetting any progress, or or
she's still calling all theshots.
I think over time, the more safeand trustworthy you continue to

(46:18):
be.
I don't know, I just see thatstart to shift because then, if
we're not, the next level of thepyramid is vulnerability.
I've just seen if, the moretrustworthy the men that I work
with are how they really worktowards rebuilding safety, their
protective walls start to comedown too.
They start more vulnerable.
They may actually and I've seensome really I don't know if you

(46:41):
see this too amazinglybeautiful things from betrayed
partners where they start to.
You know, oh, I can see.
You know I can never excuse thebehaviors of the betrayal.
I can never.
You know, I never would want it.
But I, the behaviors of thebetrayal, I can never.
You know, I never would want it.
But I, I see, I see what led youto this point.

(47:02):
Based on your own trauma orabuse, they start to have
empathy for the, the struggler.
You know they start to see that.
Or they can have some again,not not ever justifying it, but
then they'll, they'll start to.
You know, I can see where I Icould have done more in our
marriage earlier.
They start to make babies,start to look at them and these
things start to happenorganically a lot of times, you
know, without forcing it.
You know a lot of my guys willtry to force it.

(47:22):
Well, you had a partner, youknow, relational dysfunction too
, true, but she didn't cause youto act out sexually, like
that's not her responsibility.
So I don't know, I just seesome of that start to shift when
, when the men are reallydoubling down on trying to be
safe and trustworthy and try toprovide that, that safe place.

(47:42):
I don't know, do you see thattoo?
Cause I just feel like I justsee partners start to open up
more and then things start tolevel out a lot, a lot more over
time.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
Yeah, yeah for sure.
And that's, and I think that'swhere so much of my kind of
coaching goes to, in that postkind of right of truth, whether
it's I mean really, it's justpost right of truth.
I mean, you know, because inthat wait time for for the
impact letter and beyond, isthis now real work of showing up

(48:11):
differently.
How do I show up, how do Icontinue to show up when I
experience, you know this, thatyou know the opposition or it
doesn't.
Man, I've been doing all thesethings and I don't feel like
it's been noticed, like that's,that's hard, like you know, and
and and I'm thankful that guysyou know can sometimes, you know
, mention that but it's not evenabout being noticed, it's about

(48:31):
because it is noticed, becauseyour behavior is noticed, and
that behavioral truth again thatyou're showing by showing up,
by being there, by kind ofrewriting, that is communicating
more than your words ever could.
So, even if you're not gettingsort of that affirmation or the
hey, you're doing a really goodjob, like in your recovery.
Keep it up.
Or you know, I love how you'vebeen showing up and helping me,

(48:53):
you know, with my safety, likeyou're probably not going to,
you know, get that in most cases.
So it's.
But.
But it's noticed, you know,because it's the, it's that
behavior, right?

Speaker 2 (49:02):
Also too, and I love that.
I'll just say, you know, our inafter trauma, our, our brains
are wired towards threat cues.
So we're going to notice threatand danger cues more than we
will have kind of safety cues.
So I'm just saying that becauseI think sometimes it may not be
.
I mean, it's noticed but it maynot acknowledged.
But sometimes the partner isprobably more focused on threats

(49:25):
.
So as a couples therapist, ifI'm working with a couple, you
know the struggler can do me alot of favors by showing the
more I can see change.
I'm bringing those out.
Maybe the partner didn't noticea difference in a certain
situation.
I'm actually going to bring itup.
You know what?
I really see him showing updifferently now than he would
have in the past.
I really see, you know I thinkI'm not going to say this I

(49:50):
think of a couple where he wouldwalk out sometimes in session
like he couldn't handle it.
He's hanging in there.
It's not easy, but he's hangingin there and he's really trying
to show up with empathy.
That's pretty remarkable and Ican say that it may not be at
the finish line but he's reallyworking at it.
He's showing up differently andI feel like those things if the
partner, you're right, thepartner may not give
acknowledgement of those things,but I'm going to try to do that

(50:12):
too because I see it of thosethings, but I'm going to try to
do that too because I see it.
And if, but if the person's notwildly inconsistent, you don't
give me much to work with, Idon't have much leverage, but
I'm going to start.
If you really work on it, I'm,you know, people that you have
that are trusted in your lifewill, will note it as well, and
you'll get the validation fromother men for sure, because, you

(50:41):
know, I think of like asobriety birthday, for example.
Someone has a year and they'rewanting a parade from their
partner, from other guys.
You'll get it.
I mean, that's a hugeaccomplishment, such a big deal,
yeah, so huge.
But just think, from thepartner side, you know you got a
year of not doing the thingsthat she already thought you
weren't doing, as a kind offoundation to the relationship.
That's, you know, and that'sgoing to be another reminder of
betrayal, like it's so justthere's.
So it's so complicated for the,for the trade anyway.

(51:03):
I just think there's so manythings about, about that, that
to not lose hope, and you knowthis is being having a community
of people who get it, beingsurrounded by those people so,
so important.
It's like to go back to burnout, like keeping, keeping
supported through all this andyeah.

Speaker 1 (51:26):
Yeah, it carries in your corner.
Yeah, yeah, it carries a lot ofweight.
And I just got this image ofthis.
You know those old school kindof doctors scales where you'd
get on it and then they'd moveit, move it and move it Right,
and so as that weight kind ofkeeps showing, scales where you
get on it and then they'd moveit, move it and move it right,
and so as that weight kind ofkeeps showing up, you know down
that scale, right, and finallyit it tips or whatever, right,
and so I think you know there's.

Speaker 2 (51:45):
There's a lot to that .

Speaker 1 (51:45):
But you know, and that you know just keep showing
up, you know, there there's,there's a weight in that that
you know.
In a sense will, you know, tipthe scale, but not again in that
kind of power sort of way, butjust in the way maybe it's
received and the healing of therelationship.
And yeah, anyway, that was arandom.

Speaker 2 (52:03):
I love it though, but it's the image like we're never
going to get back here and ifwe're not actually moved the
weight over, we won't get there,because that's but a lot of it,
unfortunately, the onus is onthe struggler and the person who
did the betraying to to leadthe way, and and that just is
the case.
I've just seen when you can dothat and lead the way with your

(52:24):
own recovery, also relationalhealing and trying to restore
man, that goes.
That goes again.
It goes a long way for thetrade yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (52:33):
I'm curious what your thoughts are on this quote.
I heard this on a on a podcastthat talked about acting in
which was so good on shame, andhe said we damaged her trust in
us at her expense and we rebuildher trust in us at our expense.

Speaker 2 (52:54):
I love, I wow.
That's powerful.
I almost want to change thelast word of expense to a more
expensive.
We can mean a posture ofhumility, openness, compassion,
not expense, like I'm a martyr.

Speaker 1 (53:14):
It's more of a risk kind of like yeah, like the yeah
, being vulnerable and beingyeah, seeing you're doing
something different, almost yeah, I love that.

Speaker 2 (53:23):
That I love because I , I I get a little bit.
If it's I'm gonna do this and Ifeel victimy about it or I feel
like I'm a martyr, that's not agood, good place.
But yeah, if it's like I get todo this and I'm going to take
the lead, I'm going to take therisk and I'm going to initiate
those recovery check-ins thatare scary.
I'm going to show up and notjust avoid the tough
conversations, I'm going to leaninto them like I never did

(53:45):
before and all that kind ofstuff, and I'm going to forego
some stuff.
We're working on a workbookthat goes with the Intimacy
Pyramid book.

Speaker 1 (53:53):
Oh nice.

Speaker 2 (53:54):
Yeah, finally, it would have been forever.
There's an exercise that I'mreally thinking about in terms
of restoring.
There's this idea of like, whatdid I take from our
relationship and what do I needto restore?
Not quite like a ninth stepamends, but there's also things.
It could be spiritual what didI take?

(54:36):
No-transcript, with his wifeworking outside the home, and so
he basically not like, hedidn't let her but he
discouraged her from it, butthere are some dreams that she
had of, you know, whatever jobthey have wanted to do, and at
some point there's a, arestoration like I'm, I'm.

(54:58):
If you want to go pursue this,we'll make it happen for you,
and I think there's somethinglike I I I kind of discouraged
you because I was insecure.
I want to restore some of thatand that might be part of maybe
that means I have to take onsome more responsibilities or do
some other things and whatother?
What are the things that I takefrom you that need to be
restored?
And emotionally in therelationship I'm going to show

(55:20):
up more.
I feel like there's that kindof posture of that's part of a
living a mess, if you want tolook at it as well.
So maybe bigger, yeah.
So I don't just think of thatidea of how do I restore and if
I can put that mindset that thepartner will notice that for
sure, yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:41):
A hundred percent.
Gosh man, that's so good.
Is there going to be an elementin there?
Something came to my mind asyou're talking about.
This is like grieving together,like yes, yeah, yeah for sure
that's such a like.

Speaker 2 (55:55):
I see couples stalled .
I don't know if you've seenthis too.
When I see couples stalled,they're kind of stalled earlier
on.
Maybe they haven't, you know,not establishing a new footing
for the new relationship.
Maybe it's predisposure trustrebuilding the stalled, the
addict's not consistent, thestruggle is not consistent
enough with their behaviors oractions.
The addict's not consistent, orthe struggle is not consistent

(56:16):
enough with their behaviors oractions.
This is one where I see anintimacy pyramid, where where
vulnerability is still lockedaway from the part of the
betrayed partner and a lot oftimes let me back up for a
second.
This may be overly simple, but alot of times I think of the
kind of three main phases ofhealing.
First it's my story, as youknow, this is the betrayed,
betrayer story.
So the struggler story, partner, partner to try and invest

(56:39):
everything this is beforedisclosure everything about
addiction or about you knowbehaviors and trying to
understand what the resourcesare.
Partner doubles down likereally tries to understand
what's happening, what happenedto me, to the wife, if in this
situation, the next phase is herstory.
So that's where impact lettercomes.
There's restitution, there'sall this kind of stuff that

(57:00):
plays out, unfortunately, manymen I work with don't do as hard
of work in that phase as thepartner did to understand them.
And so if the if the strugglercan really really say, okay, I'm
really going to try tounderstand, not just what
happened in August of you know2007, that's not significant,

(57:23):
but you know what the grievingis.
You know, when we had oursecond child and I was, I just I
was acting out, I wasn't there,I wasn't present.
Or when your father was dying,I couldn't handle it and I, I
was acting out, I wasn't there,I wasn't present.
Or when your father was dying,I couldn't handle it and I was
not present with you.
Like those are the things wecan start to say I, instead of

(57:44):
choosing to join you in thosedifficult situations, I opted
out, I avoided them and I wasnot present, I was sexually
acting out.
When we can start toacknowledge those things and
grieve grieve with the partner,I feel like when she's she gets
that, that you get it.
Now we can start to share, dokind of grieving together.

(58:05):
What our life was and that's thethird phase is our story and
how man we could have.
We could have been this powercouple.
I thought we were but weweren't.
Who could we have been if, ifyou were only honest about all
this from the beginning and wecould have like who, who we're
now, the solidity of now, whatif we would have had that from
the beginning?
And man, our life, that we hadall these things together,

(58:27):
there's, there's, it's, it'sbeautiful, I can see it, but
there's also some memories fromthe past that are really tainted
and I have to keep that in mind.
And so I think there's beingable to grieve together as a
couple.
What did the addict, what didthis addiction take from us and
not just from you or from me,and who can we?
Then I think we can actuallystart to say who can we become,
and that's the hope.

(58:48):
Like I, most guys, I talked toyou guys.
You talked about grief.
What was it earlier this year?
Right, yeah, grief and lament.
We try to avoid those a lot oftimes.
We just I don't want to grieve.
What's the phrase?
What?
What we resist persists andwhen we can actually together as
a couple man, we can start now,we can actually heal and we can

(59:11):
actually start to move forward.
To me, that's the that's sobeautiful to be a part of, when
couples are willing to do that.
It's so.
It's such an honor because Iknow it's difficult, but they're
that.
That's the way that they'regoing to kind of continue
healing and cleaning out thepain and the wounds so they can
get to the next phase for the,for their relationship.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, it's just likegrieving that and then also
coming back to this place ofhope that we can be this couple,
yeah, like, yeah, our story'snot over, yeah.
So it's like, you know, comingthrough that grief and to hope
for what now can be is such a,such a beautiful beautiful and

(59:57):
it's real, it's authentic, it's.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
It's.
It's not just I don't knowimage, you know projected onto a
screen.
It's like this is us, this is,this is fully real, it's.
That's the beauty.

Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
Yeah, man, dan, I, I want to keep you for like five
more hours and just talk aboutall kinds of things, but we're
going to.
We're going to wrap up.
Brother, I want to thank you soso much for being on the show
today, for just man your heart,your work, your expertise, the
ways that you have even impacted, you know, clinicians and
coaches and just gosh like youguys are doing some really great

(01:00:33):
work, man, and I'm superthankful that we got to sit
together today.
I hope our listeners just feelincredibly blessed.
So thank you for being here,man.

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
It's an honor to join you, Aaron.
Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
Yeah, and thank you for joining us today on Becoming
Whole.
It's always an honor to walkalongside you as we pursue
deeper healing, greaterintegrity and a life rooted in
the love of Christ.
But before we sign off, I wantto personally invite you to two
transformational opportunitiescoming up this fall.
For the men, our Awaken Retreatis happening October 3rd

(01:01:08):
through the 5th.
This will be one unforgettableweekend where you'll experience
being known and named throughbrotherhood, the Father's heart
and embodied healing.
Whether you're just starting outon your recovery journey or
you've been walking the path foryears, this retreat is for you
and for the women, the Sacred byDesign retreat is happening

(01:01:30):
November 7th and 8th.
It's a unique space for womento slow down, connect deeply
with God and rediscover thebeauty of who they are, beyond
shame, beyond striving.
When is the last time youexperienced true awe?
Make sure you sign up for atime of wonder and healing and
if you or someone you know isready for something different,

(01:01:53):
something deeper.
Both of these retreats are nowopen, but space is limited For
all the details and to reserveyour spot, just click the link
in the show notes and, untilnext time, keep pressing into
the truth, keep walking in graceand keep becoming whole.

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