April 8, 2025 • 32 mins
Singleness often exists in the shadows of our cultural conversation, especially in faith communities where marriage is frequently celebrated as the ultimate destination. But what if your life's unexpected path includes long-term singleness? How do you navigate sexuality, loneliness, and purpose when the "happily ever after" narrative hasn't materialized as planned?
Connelly Gillum, author of "Revelations of a Single Woman: Loving the Life I Didn't Expect," brings refreshing honesty to this conversation as she shares her journey through decades of singleness. After a relationship ended in her early 40s, Connelly faced what she believed might be the "consummate tragedy" of permanent singleness. Yet nearly twenty years later, she's discovered surprising fullness, purpose, and joy—not despite her singleness, but partially because of it.
The conversation doesn't shy away from difficult truths. Connelly candidly discusses how cultural messages about sexuality created a persistent wrestling match with God, leading her to suspect He might be "holding out" on her. The breakthrough came not through denying her sexuality or desires, but through reframing them as opportunities for self-giving rather than self-fulfillment. From supporting family during crisis to discovering the joys of hospitality, Connelly reveals how her singleness has allowed her unique ways to reflect Christ to those around her.
For singles beyond the typical ministry demographic of under-30, Connelly offers particularly valuable wisdom about grief and purpose. She emphasizes that acknowledging the genuine suffering of unsought singleness isn't wallowing—it's essential healing work that eventually leads to freedom. And her closing thoughts about how "God sets the lonely in families" provide hope for building meaningful connections beyond traditional family structures.
Whether you're single, supporting someone who is, or simply interested in a deeper understanding of singleness, this conversation will challenge assumptions and offer a fresh perspective on embracing the life you didn't expect.
Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole
👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, everyone, welcome to our podcast, part two
of our podcast on singleness.
If you guys heard part one, youheard Josh and I talk about how
marriage can be viewed as thepinnacle of your Christian faith
and we talked a little bitabout some practical things that
(00:21):
you could do as a single personwho is fully sexual being and
walking that out.
But today we want to take ashift and we want to talk about
let's talk about singleness inreal life.
This is something you know.
We can talk about all of theall of the these concepts and
(00:44):
things around singleness, butit's helpful when you can hear
from someone's real lifeexperience.
And so today I have theprivilege of talking to Connelly
Gillum.
She spent 20 years in DC beforereturning back home to
Charlottesville.
First of all, connelly is alover of Jesus and she serves
(01:08):
nationally and internationallywith the Navigators, and she is
the author of Revelations of aSingle Woman Loving the Life I
Didn't Expect and co-authoredthe book.
Yet, undaunted, embraced by theGoodness of God in the Chaos of
Life, she is a friend ofregeneration and I can say she's
(01:30):
also a friend of mine.
So welcome today to you,connelly.
Thank you, kyle, I'm glad to behere, so I'm going to jump
right in.
So in the 19-some years thatyou and I have known one another
, we've had a lot ofconversations around singleness
and specifically singleness,sexuality and being in the
(01:52):
church, and so I want to getyour thoughts on this quote.
This is from Gerald Heistandand Jay Thomas.
They have a book called SexDating and Relationships A Fresh
Approach.
Sex Dating and Relationships AFresh Approach.
And they say we need to explodethe idea that singleness is
(02:12):
always a tragedy.
So what are your thoughtsaround that?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, you know, it's so funny when I just hear that
quote out of the blue, I'mreminded about when I was about
40 or 41, and there was a manwho had a ring in his pocket who
wanted to get married and Iwanted to make it work, but the
more I was forcing it, the moreit was clear that I was forcing
it.
And so when that ended kind ofdramatically and I wasn't all I
(02:41):
should have been in the endingof that, in fairness, but there
was something inside of me I hadto grapple with that said, this
is the consummate tragedy.
Here you are at the end ofconceivable baby-bearing years,
you've just stopped thisrelationship and this is
(03:04):
actually.
You've cast yourselfpermanently into sort of a
tragic position in life.
I mean, I'm not saying that thatwas true, but that was what I
had to contend with and grapplewith.
So I definitely think that isin the waters, that many maybe
not everybody, but that manypeople swim in, that many maybe
(03:25):
not everybody, but that manypeople swim in.
And I think I've been thesurprised person.
Now, oh, 18 or 19 years sincethen, I've been the surprised
person that that was untrue,that it hasn't been tragedy, but
I am the surprised person inthat journey.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
So what would you say surprised you the most?
To be warm, full, alive,fruitful, connected,
interdependent was only going tobe able to come through
(04:15):
marriage and nuclear family, andnot that marriage and nuclear
family, of course, are actuallymeant to be a means to a lot of
that.
But I was surprised that itcould come outside of marriage
and nuclear family.
I think that there could besatisfying relational richness.
(04:37):
I think has maybe been thebiggest surprise to me.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
the biggest surprise to me.
Oh, that's good.
So, as you think about that, ifyou think about yourself single
(05:10):
sexual person, what was it likeearly in your walk with the
Lord?
And then what it's like now, asyou think about what it meant
for you to be this woman who ismade in the image of God, and
part of that image of God isexperiencing sexual desires.
And so what was it like if youcompare what it was like as a
younger person to where you arein life now?
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yeah, well, I would say I pretty much drank a lot of
what I would just call acultural Kool-Aid, you know,
from TV shows and movies andsongs, and I always had a sense
that sexuality was the secretdoor.
Like sexual expression, likefull-bodied sexual expression
(05:50):
was the secret door to life witha capital L.
And I think that what that didwas it took me down further down
roads than retrospectively Iwish I'd gone sexually, and it
also never fully delivered thegoods, but it did keep me kind
of hooked, I think in a way thatin a way I mean, I mean the
(06:14):
good thing is I was never reallyshut down, so that's the upside
.
Like I felt like a sexual beingand I remember one time
standing before the mirror andkind of doing a scan of my body
and saying, lord, you made allthese parts and pieces, but it
all belongs to you.
I want to live into it on yourterms.
(06:36):
I don't see how to do thatoutside of marriage and sex.
So there was a constant dialoguewith God and I think there was
selfishness in some of my andI'm talking hardcore sexual
expression, but just some of mysexual ways with men.
I think there was selfishness.
I think there was selfishness.
(06:57):
It wasn't sexualized for me,but there was a selfishness that
could show up in a propensitytowards dependency with women,
and I think that it didn't havean overt sexual component, but I
still think there was somethingthat was an orientation towards
taking Well, my team latterteen years, 20s and 30s, really
(07:25):
up through this breakup.
When I was about 41, I guess itwas, or 41 or 42, was wrestling
, I think, wrestling and kind ofsuspecting that God was holding
out on me.
I mean, intellectually I knewbetter, theologically,
(07:47):
biblically I knew better, butexperientially the church seemed
to declare you would arrivewhen you got married and had
kids and the culture around mewas declaring you arrive when
you're having sex, and I wasn'tdoing either.
So that left me in a place of alot of wrestling through my 20s
(08:07):
and 30s.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Yeah, does that make sense to steward your sexuality?
Because, as much you know, wecan go with the hey, don't do it
, right, right.
And we can even, you know, youeven say and that includes like
porn and masturbation, right,don't do it.
(08:39):
But there's such a, there's amuch bigger picture than just
don't do it in terms ofstewarding your sexuality.
So what was that journey likefor you?
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah, I remember reading this book oh, I can't
remember what it's called.
I'm looking to see if I can seeit on my shelves real quick.
And you know, probably have theword desire or something by
this guy, ronald Rollhauser.
I don't even know if I'mgetting that right, it doesn't
matter.
But he talks about sexualitybeing tied up with this design
(09:14):
God put into us for fullself-giving and like complete
self-giving and abandon.
And he goes on to make anargument how Mother Teresa, if
you remember her, was like this,totally sexual being, because
she was giving it all.
And I think part of myunderstanding of sexuality was
(09:38):
getting it, so to speak.
And I think the stewardshipbecame realizing, you know, who
had God made me to be as a womanand what did it mean to give it
, but on his terms and his ways,and the it not just being my
(10:00):
body, but what was it going tobe?
To give my personhood and totrust.
And maybe that's where thestewardship began to happen,
when I began to trust that Godwould give to me what I needed
in the journey.
Because I think it's very hardto steward one's sexuality if,
secretly, you believe God'sholding out and whatever
(10:25):
goodness is going to come to you, you got to go get.
So, yeah, I mean I think I'mtalking kind of vaguely because
it's been messy along the way,but I do think there was a shift
and I think honestly, kyle, Imean I think part of it was,
(10:49):
think part of it was after thatbreakup um, I really realized,
like my sexuality isn't, doesn'tbelong to me, um, like I am the
creature and god is the creator, I'm just like my gifts don't
belong to me.
No-transcript, and with alittle fear and trembling, like
(11:20):
I hope you turn out to be goodGod, because I'm mostly
convinced.
I'm theoretically totallyconvinced, but I'm mostly
emotionally convinced.
But I'm going to take the leapand start praying and seeking to
operate that way.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
That's so, so good and I appreciate your honesty
about hey, like, I know that inmy head, but sometimes my heart
has a hard time connecting tothat need to hear this too,
(12:05):
because there are single peoplein your sphere of influence who
are really walking this out andwrestling this out, and
sometimes you can be in thosegroups and they'll go.
Oh well, you know, marriage hasa lot of hard stuff going on.
Maybe you don't really wantthis and you know kind of thing
and and that's not alwayshelpful, right, because there's
(12:25):
still this perception that theyare experiencing something that
we are missing out on.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
yeah, I mean, I, I, I think, because sex is and maybe
you and josh talked about thisbut because sex is god in our
culture, it feels like if you'recut out from the actual
physical practice of sex notthese abstract things about
self-giving, blah, blah, blah,but the actual physical
(12:53):
experience of sex you'reactually cut out from worshiping
at the altar of our culture andno matter what anyone else says
about, like well, being at thealtar is not all that great,
blah, blah, blah there's still afeeling of being cut out, and I
do think it's because sex doeshave this it occupies this
(13:13):
idolatrous center in our cultureand so it has a power in our
psyches.
That is maybe, or it occupies aplace in our psyches.
That is maybe, or it, like,occupies a place in our psyches
that has an undue power, but itdoes have that.
So how are we going to dealwith?
Speaker 1 (13:32):
it Absolutely, absolutely, and so I want to
backpedal a little bit.
So you talked about like thisyou know all in giving yourself
to the Lord.
Can you name maybe one sort ofpractical way that you have done
that that has helped you hadthis sense of man?
(13:53):
I'm giving my whole self intothis.
This is a way that I can reallystand in the fullness of who I
am as an image bearer of God,sexuality and all.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Yeah Well, the first story that pops to my mind is
back, and you'll remember this.
It's when my two-year-oldnephew drowned and he was in the
pediatric ICU.
So he was not, he was stillliving, but he was in a coma and
he was in pediatric ICU forabout eight days.
(14:27):
And I remember recognizingamong his older siblings and the
older cousins that, because Iwas single, I was actually
available to give to them inways that the parents of either
(14:47):
you know, either this little boy, the parents of the little boy
and his older siblings, or theparents of the cousins weren't.
And I remember for the firsttime thinking like Remember, for
the first time, thinking like,kindly, in your singleness and
your availability, will you justgo ahead and give in a way that
(15:12):
maybe other people aren'tactually even freed up to give,
instead of being like, well, whyshould I give more Just because
I'm single?
That almost feels like I haveto pay a price by giving more
because I'm single.
And there was something thatshifted.
I was like, okay, I'm all inwith these kids.
And we did for those eight days, we did all kinds of things to
try and taste joy, and tasteGod's presence, and taste
(15:38):
hopefulness and light.
You know everything fromdressing up to go bowling to
getting crazy slurpees, torunning to parks, to making up
songs, like all kinds of things,and I was somehow able to say I
want to give it all out of mysingleness.
And that just became likeemblematic of even on a Friday.
(16:04):
Let's say it's a Friday nightand you're like, or maybe worse
than Saturday night, becauseFriday night you're tired, you
can watch Netflix alone, butSaturday night you got nothing
to do, right, and you maybetried, you maybe gave it a good
effort, right, and so I thinkthere's been some Saturday
(16:25):
nights where I've actuallychosen to say okay, god, I don't
know what to do with thisSaturday night.
I don't know what to do with,whether it was loneliness or
feeling misfit or, I don't know,unmet longing or whatever it
(16:48):
was unmet sexual desire whichseems to go along with a
Saturday night.
Right To take it and say God,okay, I give this all to you.
Would you just give me onethought, like one next creative
thought, and inevitably things Idon't mean dramatically
(17:10):
necessarily, but things seem toemerge like call that other
friend.
You always say you want to workon your oil painting.
You always say you want to workon your oil painting, try it.
And little.
I mean it sounds so small andlittle, kyle.
But it's almost like when Itake all my unmet longings,
(17:32):
unmet desires, real and imagined, and I say okay, instead of
clinging to them and turninginward, I offer them up to the
Lord and say, please, just giveme one thing in return.
It's like God does it.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
That's so beautiful and I so appreciate the fact
that you use the term creative,because I think, like we serve a
creative God who has made uscreative, and sometimes I think,
when we think creative, wethink, oh, I've got to be this
(18:09):
artist or singer, or.
But there are other ways inwhich God has given you
something specific that iscreativity for you and to be
able to dive into that and to dothat knowing nobody has to see
it.
It doesn't have to be ondisplay for the world, it
(18:29):
doesn't have to be perfect, itjust has to be this moment where
you can experience what God hasput into you to do and to be
fulfilled in every possible wayas a single person.
And that doesn't mean you denythe feelings like you just
(18:51):
talked about, even all of thosefeelings that come up.
It doesn't mean that you denythem, but it is an opportunity
to invite God into a space andto see how he will come to you
and respond to you in thatmoment.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Yeah, I think it's again.
This is like a weird discovery,but that the holes in my soul
that I can feel along the waywhether they're relational,
they're sexual, they're communalbut the holes in my soul can
become portals to the heart ofGod and out of that new life can
(19:33):
emerge.
I mean, I think one of thecoolest things now since I've
been in Charlottesville andfinally, I did not buy my own
house until I was 55.
A lot of other people have hadtheir own space before then.
I was always in communal livingsituations in DC because of,
well, choosing it on some level,also finances compelling it.
(19:55):
But what I've been amazed isthat I have actually stumbled
into the joys of hospitality andso it's creating a space that
welcomes people, creating wineand cheese and table
conversation.
(20:15):
In other words, there's a wholeI don't even know what you call
it, but it's creative, likethere's something for me to
offer creatively that ends uphaving a relational, communal
impact.
That's happening.
Single, that I somehow thoughtwas just the territory of
married people with cool,expansive, multi-generational
(20:39):
families or something.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
That's so good.
That's so good.
So let me ask you this.
So you know, typically inchurch, when there's topics
around singles and singleness,it's always the 30 and under
crew, typically.
And so for those of us who area little bit beyond that, for
(21:05):
those of us who are a little bitbeyond that, what would you say
to a person who is a little bitlater in life, who might be
listening and is still kind offeeling in that funk of man, I'm
40, I'm 50, maybe even 60, andhere I am, I'm still single.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Yeah, well, you know it's funny.
I remember when I wrote thebook on singleness, the most
powerful part of the book wasactually not my words in it.
It was me quoting Dr Houston,who was an older he's still
alive, he's like 102 now, but hewas an older former professor
and president out at RegentCollege, a seminary in Vancouver
, british Columbia, and agraduate theological college
(21:46):
they call it and he said to mewhen we were driving the car and
I was in my late 30s, he saidyou've suffered much being
single.
And when he said that, itpierced me and I didn't want to
hear those words.
And then he said your motherhas suffered with you being
(22:08):
single.
And then I was like, oh, he'sgetting my business.
And I could feel my adrenalinegoing up and I'm getting chatty
right and I'm trying to sort ofredirect.
Yeah, but I've seen God in allthese ways show up, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah and I hop outof the car as quickly as I can.
He's dropping me off afterdinner with him and his wife and
(22:29):
I go upstairs to where I'mstaying there in Vancouver and I
just turn on a movie because Isomehow want to escape what he's
been touching on in my soul andit ends up being that old movie
, Mel Gibson, braveheart.
I don't know if you remember,but it's got quite a lot of
drama and so much pathos and I'mwatching it.
I just start to sob and Irealized his words had cut into
(22:54):
me and that in a way I wasn'tgoing to get to any freedom in
my singleness until I hadgrieved with the Lord the parts
that really did feel like agenuine loss.
So I think for the person who'sover 30 or over 40 and is
(23:15):
contending with unsoughtsingleness, one thing is to
realize there is, or certainlycan be for many people, an
element of suffering in it andto be able to grieve, to name it
and to grieve it.
And, like with any suffering,we don't live in it forever.
(23:36):
But if we don't own it alongthe way, I think it's our shared
friend Christina who said to meone time that wounds buried
alive never die, they just comeback as zombies.
And so we've got to tend to thewounds and then, as the wounds
(23:58):
are tended and I don't mean it'sa one and done sort of thing,
but over time, as the wounds aretended more deeply, with the
Lord and hopefully a few others,trusted others.
I think there becomes thisstrange opportunity to realize
that I too, as a single person,am bringing something of Jesus
(24:20):
to the world around me that'sdistinct, that it needs to see
in my singleness.
If marriage, aspirationally atleast, can bring an image of
Christ in the church, I think mybeing sustained and even
starting to discover joy in mysingleness brings a picture of
(24:41):
the church as it awaits theconsummation right, and that it
can speak and I have theopportunity to discover how my
singleness can be experiencedand then speak of Jesus meeting
me in the waiting.
And so it's like there's acertain role I think holy role
(25:10):
that my singleness can bring tothe world around me in terms of
mirroring something about Jesusand the church, just like,
obviously, marriage is meant tobe able to do.
So I've taken some strengthfrom that.
I don't know, so grieving whatneeds to be grieved and then
looking for what is the good andholy role that God has called
(25:32):
me into in my singleness.
And who knows, maybe I getmarried a year from now, but for
now, what has he called me intoand how might he be pouring out
of my life in ways that only mysingleness would allow for?
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Yes, that is just so good and I'm grateful that you
are inviting people to thatplace of grief.
Yeah, because I think there'sthis idea that you know, okay,
you just got to suck it up, yougot to suck it up, you got to
suck it up.
Keep on jumping on the datingapps in between, but suck it up
(26:12):
and not really bring that griefto the foot of the cross,
because there is a grief thatJesus shares with us in that and
he wants it.
And I don't think we're invitedenough to bring our grief to
the Lord.
(26:32):
And even practicing lament thatis a biblical practice, to
lament, because those thingsactually can push you closer to
the Lord, because he wants totake that.
And, just as you said, there'ssomething.
Then there's an exchange thatwill happen that the Lord wants
to give you in exchange for thatgrief, Because he understands
(26:57):
he doesn't want you to carry itforever.
He wants to have thisopportunity to then take it,
because he's the burden bearer,and then give you something rich
and beautiful in that,absolutely, I mean.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
I think too, as I was able to name, to articulate, to
feel, to find healing in mygrief, I also began to realize,
wow, this isn't just about me.
Like we live in a culturethat's lost meaningful side of
what it is to be human andtherefore what it is to love,
(27:35):
and I think a lot of theunsought singleness and I know
there's people who seeksingleness, but I'm talking to
those who haven't sought it buthave found themselves there the
unsought singleness, at least inpart, isn't just about me and
my stuff or me and my inabilityto make a relationship happen.
It's also the byproduct of aculture that's lost its way in
(27:57):
terms of what it is to be humanand what it is to love.
Somehow that was freeing torealize this wasn't just my
issue but it's part and parcelof some bigger things going on
in our culture and somehow thatwas helpful to me yeah, so true,
so true.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Well, connelly, this has been just a wonderful
conversation with you.
Are there any final?
Are there any final thoughts ora final thought that you want
to share with our listeners?
As for those who are single andare just in that place of
contemplating what theirsingleness means in the grand
(28:38):
scheme of life, yeah, I will saythis.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
I think the single people who have seemed, on the
whole, happiest to me do seem tobe woven into some kind of
families, some kind of family,and not necessarily their
original blood family, thoughthat can be great if that's
(29:03):
available, but that's notavailable to everybody, and so,
if that's not your currentexperience, there's not you know
some family who you go over andplay games with on a Saturday
night or whose kids' sportingevents you see periodically?
Ask the Lord.
It says God sets the lonely infamilies, families, and that
(29:27):
might mean your own family, andthat's great.
And pray for that.
If that is what you want like,pray for that.
Who knows what God can create,um, really, from what you can't
see at all, from seeminglynothing he can create, and it
also might be him weaving you into the life of a family,
(29:50):
perhaps from your church, someother context where the shared
blood of Christ is what ties youtogether.
And yeah, that's what I wouldencourage people to ask for.
If it's not yet their story, ohthanks so much for that.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
So, connelly, I would love to have you just pray for
those who are listening, just tosend them off with a blessing.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Okay, that would be my delight, my joy.
So, father, I thank you forKyle, I thank you for her story
and all her levels of grapplingand discovering and tasting
tears and tasting joy, and thankyou for our friendship.
God, thank you for thisministry and, god, I do thank
you for the men and women whoare listening.
(30:36):
God, would you do somethingamong us that is beyond what we
can ask or imagine relationally?
Us, that is beyond what we canask or imagine relationally?
Would you give each of us justone next idea, one next step
that you would help us to liveinto the fullness of who we are,
as men or as women, as sexualbeings, lord, and as image
(31:00):
bearers, in a relationallyconfused culture, lord, but in
one where you've created us forrich interdependence and
fruitfulness, god.
So give us one idea and give usa deep sense of your presence
as we journey.
Ask all of these things inJesus' name, by the power of the
Holy Spirit, amen.
Well, everyone, welcome to our podcast, part two
of our podcast on singleness.
If you guys heard part one, youheard Josh and I talk about how
marriage can be viewed as thepinnacle of your Christian faith
and we talked a little bitabout some practical things that
(00:21):
you could do as a single personwho is fully sexual being and
walking that out.
But today we want to take ashift and we want to talk about
let's talk about singleness inreal life.
This is something you know.
We can talk about all of theall of the these concepts and
(00:44):
things around singleness, butit's helpful when you can hear
from someone's real lifeexperience.
And so today I have theprivilege of talking to Connelly
Gillum.
She spent 20 years in DC beforereturning back home to
Charlottesville.
First of all, connelly is alover of Jesus and she serves
(01:08):
nationally and internationallywith the Navigators, and she is
the author of Revelations of aSingle Woman Loving the Life I
Didn't Expect and co-authoredthe book.
Yet, undaunted, embraced by theGoodness of God in the Chaos of
Life, she is a friend ofregeneration and I can say she's
(01:30):
also a friend of mine.
So welcome today to you,connelly.
Thank you, kyle, I'm glad to behere, so I'm going to jump
right in.
So in the 19-some years thatyou and I have known one another
, we've had a lot ofconversations around singleness
and specifically singleness,sexuality and being in the
(01:52):
church, and so I want to getyour thoughts on this quote.
This is from Gerald Heistandand Jay Thomas.
They have a book called SexDating and Relationships A Fresh
Approach.
Sex Dating and Relationships AFresh Approach.
And they say we need to explodethe idea that singleness is
(02:12):
always a tragedy.
So what are your thoughtsaround that?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, you know, it's so funny when I just hear that
quote out of the blue, I'mreminded about when I was about
40 or 41, and there was a manwho had a ring in his pocket who
wanted to get married and Iwanted to make it work, but the
more I was forcing it, the moreit was clear that I was forcing
it.
And so when that ended kind ofdramatically and I wasn't all I
(02:41):
should have been in the endingof that, in fairness, but there
was something inside of me I hadto grapple with that said, this
is the consummate tragedy.
Here you are at the end ofconceivable baby-bearing years,
you've just stopped thisrelationship and this is
(03:04):
actually.
You've cast yourselfpermanently into sort of a
tragic position in life.
I mean, I'm not saying that thatwas true, but that was what I
had to contend with and grapplewith.
So I definitely think that isin the waters, that many maybe
not everybody, but that manypeople swim in, that many maybe
(03:25):
not everybody, but that manypeople swim in.
And I think I've been thesurprised person.
Now, oh, 18 or 19 years sincethen, I've been the surprised
person that that was untrue,that it hasn't been tragedy, but
I am the surprised person inthat journey.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
So what would you say surprised you the most?
To be warm, full, alive,fruitful, connected,
interdependent was only going tobe able to come through
(04:15):
marriage and nuclear family, andnot that marriage and nuclear
family, of course, are actuallymeant to be a means to a lot of
that.
But I was surprised that itcould come outside of marriage
and nuclear family.
I think that there could besatisfying relational richness.
(04:37):
I think has maybe been thebiggest surprise to me.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
the biggest surprise to me.
Oh, that's good.
So, as you think about that, ifyou think about yourself single
(05:10):
sexual person, what was it likeearly in your walk with the
Lord?
And then what it's like now, asyou think about what it meant
for you to be this woman who ismade in the image of God, and
part of that image of God isexperiencing sexual desires.
And so what was it like if youcompare what it was like as a
younger person to where you arein life now?
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yeah, well, I would say I pretty much drank a lot of
what I would just call acultural Kool-Aid, you know,
from TV shows and movies andsongs, and I always had a sense
that sexuality was the secretdoor.
Like sexual expression, likefull-bodied sexual expression
(05:50):
was the secret door to life witha capital L.
And I think that what that didwas it took me down further down
roads than retrospectively Iwish I'd gone sexually, and it
also never fully delivered thegoods, but it did keep me kind
of hooked, I think in a way thatin a way I mean, I mean the
(06:14):
good thing is I was never reallyshut down, so that's the upside
.
Like I felt like a sexual beingand I remember one time
standing before the mirror andkind of doing a scan of my body
and saying, lord, you made allthese parts and pieces, but it
all belongs to you.
I want to live into it on yourterms.
(06:36):
I don't see how to do thatoutside of marriage and sex.
So there was a constant dialoguewith God and I think there was
selfishness in some of my andI'm talking hardcore sexual
expression, but just some of mysexual ways with men.
I think there was selfishness.
I think there was selfishness.
(06:57):
It wasn't sexualized for me,but there was a selfishness that
could show up in a propensitytowards dependency with women,
and I think that it didn't havean overt sexual component, but I
still think there was somethingthat was an orientation towards
taking Well, my team latterteen years, 20s and 30s, really
(07:25):
up through this breakup.
When I was about 41, I guess itwas, or 41 or 42, was wrestling
, I think, wrestling and kind ofsuspecting that God was holding
out on me.
I mean, intellectually I knewbetter, theologically,
(07:47):
biblically I knew better, butexperientially the church seemed
to declare you would arrivewhen you got married and had
kids and the culture around mewas declaring you arrive when
you're having sex, and I wasn'tdoing either.
So that left me in a place of alot of wrestling through my 20s
(08:07):
and 30s.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Yeah, does that make sense to steward your sexuality?
Because, as much you know, wecan go with the hey, don't do it
, right, right.
And we can even, you know, youeven say and that includes like
porn and masturbation, right,don't do it.
(08:39):
But there's such a, there's amuch bigger picture than just
don't do it in terms ofstewarding your sexuality.
So what was that journey likefor you?
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah, I remember reading this book oh, I can't
remember what it's called.
I'm looking to see if I can seeit on my shelves real quick.
And you know, probably have theword desire or something by
this guy, ronald Rollhauser.
I don't even know if I'mgetting that right, it doesn't
matter.
But he talks about sexualitybeing tied up with this design
(09:14):
God put into us for fullself-giving and like complete
self-giving and abandon.
And he goes on to make anargument how Mother Teresa, if
you remember her, was like this,totally sexual being, because
she was giving it all.
And I think part of myunderstanding of sexuality was
(09:38):
getting it, so to speak.
And I think the stewardshipbecame realizing, you know, who
had God made me to be as a womanand what did it mean to give it
, but on his terms and his ways,and the it not just being my
(10:00):
body, but what was it going tobe?
To give my personhood and totrust.
And maybe that's where thestewardship began to happen,
when I began to trust that Godwould give to me what I needed
in the journey.
Because I think it's very hardto steward one's sexuality if,
secretly, you believe God'sholding out and whatever
(10:25):
goodness is going to come to you, you got to go get.
So, yeah, I mean I think I'mtalking kind of vaguely because
it's been messy along the way,but I do think there was a shift
and I think honestly, kyle, Imean I think part of it was,
(10:49):
think part of it was after thatbreakup um, I really realized,
like my sexuality isn't, doesn'tbelong to me, um, like I am the
creature and god is the creator, I'm just like my gifts don't
belong to me.
No-transcript, and with alittle fear and trembling, like
(11:20):
I hope you turn out to be goodGod, because I'm mostly
convinced.
I'm theoretically totallyconvinced, but I'm mostly
emotionally convinced.
But I'm going to take the leapand start praying and seeking to
operate that way.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
That's so, so good and I appreciate your honesty
about hey, like, I know that inmy head, but sometimes my heart
has a hard time connecting tothat need to hear this too,
(12:05):
because there are single peoplein your sphere of influence who
are really walking this out andwrestling this out, and
sometimes you can be in thosegroups and they'll go.
Oh well, you know, marriage hasa lot of hard stuff going on.
Maybe you don't really wantthis and you know kind of thing
and and that's not alwayshelpful, right, because there's
(12:25):
still this perception that theyare experiencing something that
we are missing out on.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
yeah, I mean, I, I, I think, because sex is and maybe
you and josh talked about thisbut because sex is god in our
culture, it feels like if you'recut out from the actual
physical practice of sex notthese abstract things about
self-giving, blah, blah, blah,but the actual physical
(12:53):
experience of sex you'reactually cut out from worshiping
at the altar of our culture andno matter what anyone else says
about, like well, being at thealtar is not all that great,
blah, blah, blah there's still afeeling of being cut out, and I
do think it's because sex doeshave this it occupies this
(13:13):
idolatrous center in our cultureand so it has a power in our
psyches.
That is maybe, or it occupies aplace in our psyches.
That is maybe, or it, like,occupies a place in our psyches
that has an undue power, but itdoes have that.
So how are we going to dealwith?
Speaker 1 (13:32):
it Absolutely, absolutely, and so I want to
backpedal a little bit.
So you talked about like thisyou know all in giving yourself
to the Lord.
Can you name maybe one sort ofpractical way that you have done
that that has helped you hadthis sense of man?
(13:53):
I'm giving my whole self intothis.
This is a way that I can reallystand in the fullness of who I
am as an image bearer of God,sexuality and all.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Yeah Well, the first story that pops to my mind is
back, and you'll remember this.
It's when my two-year-oldnephew drowned and he was in the
pediatric ICU.
So he was not, he was stillliving, but he was in a coma and
he was in pediatric ICU forabout eight days.
(14:27):
And I remember recognizingamong his older siblings and the
older cousins that, because Iwas single, I was actually
available to give to them inways that the parents of either
(14:47):
you know, either this little boy, the parents of the little boy
and his older siblings, or theparents of the cousins weren't.
And I remember for the firsttime thinking like Remember, for
the first time, thinking like,kindly, in your singleness and
your availability, will you justgo ahead and give in a way that
(15:12):
maybe other people aren'tactually even freed up to give,
instead of being like, well, whyshould I give more Just because
I'm single?
That almost feels like I haveto pay a price by giving more
because I'm single.
And there was something thatshifted.
I was like, okay, I'm all inwith these kids.
And we did for those eight days, we did all kinds of things to
try and taste joy, and tasteGod's presence, and taste
(15:38):
hopefulness and light.
You know everything fromdressing up to go bowling to
getting crazy slurpees, torunning to parks, to making up
songs, like all kinds of things,and I was somehow able to say I
want to give it all out of mysingleness.
And that just became likeemblematic of even on a Friday.
(16:04):
Let's say it's a Friday nightand you're like, or maybe worse
than Saturday night, becauseFriday night you're tired, you
can watch Netflix alone, butSaturday night you got nothing
to do, right, and you maybetried, you maybe gave it a good
effort, right, and so I thinkthere's been some Saturday
(16:25):
nights where I've actuallychosen to say okay, god, I don't
know what to do with thisSaturday night.
I don't know what to do with,whether it was loneliness or
feeling misfit or, I don't know,unmet longing or whatever it
(16:48):
was unmet sexual desire whichseems to go along with a
Saturday night.
Right To take it and say God,okay, I give this all to you.
Would you just give me onethought, like one next creative
thought, and inevitably things Idon't mean dramatically
(17:10):
necessarily, but things seem toemerge like call that other
friend.
You always say you want to workon your oil painting.
You always say you want to workon your oil painting, try it.
And little.
I mean it sounds so small andlittle, kyle.
But it's almost like when Itake all my unmet longings,
(17:32):
unmet desires, real and imagined, and I say okay, instead of
clinging to them and turninginward, I offer them up to the
Lord and say, please, just giveme one thing in return.
It's like God does it.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
That's so beautiful and I so appreciate the fact
that you use the term creative,because I think, like we serve a
creative God who has made uscreative, and sometimes I think,
when we think creative, wethink, oh, I've got to be this
(18:09):
artist or singer, or.
But there are other ways inwhich God has given you
something specific that iscreativity for you and to be
able to dive into that and to dothat knowing nobody has to see
it.
It doesn't have to be ondisplay for the world, it
(18:29):
doesn't have to be perfect, itjust has to be this moment where
you can experience what God hasput into you to do and to be
fulfilled in every possible wayas a single person.
And that doesn't mean you denythe feelings like you just
(18:51):
talked about, even all of thosefeelings that come up.
It doesn't mean that you denythem, but it is an opportunity
to invite God into a space andto see how he will come to you
and respond to you in thatmoment.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Yeah, I think it's again.
This is like a weird discovery,but that the holes in my soul
that I can feel along the waywhether they're relational,
they're sexual, they're communalbut the holes in my soul can
become portals to the heart ofGod and out of that new life can
(19:33):
emerge.
I mean, I think one of thecoolest things now since I've
been in Charlottesville andfinally, I did not buy my own
house until I was 55.
A lot of other people have hadtheir own space before then.
I was always in communal livingsituations in DC because of,
well, choosing it on some level,also finances compelling it.
(19:55):
But what I've been amazed isthat I have actually stumbled
into the joys of hospitality andso it's creating a space that
welcomes people, creating wineand cheese and table
conversation.
(20:15):
In other words, there's a wholeI don't even know what you call
it, but it's creative, likethere's something for me to
offer creatively that ends uphaving a relational, communal
impact.
That's happening.
Single, that I somehow thoughtwas just the territory of
married people with cool,expansive, multi-generational
(20:39):
families or something.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
That's so good.
That's so good.
So let me ask you this.
So you know, typically inchurch, when there's topics
around singles and singleness,it's always the 30 and under
crew, typically.
And so for those of us who area little bit beyond that, for
(21:05):
those of us who are a little bitbeyond that, what would you say
to a person who is a little bitlater in life, who might be
listening and is still kind offeeling in that funk of man, I'm
40, I'm 50, maybe even 60, andhere I am, I'm still single.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Yeah, well, you know it's funny.
I remember when I wrote thebook on singleness, the most
powerful part of the book wasactually not my words in it.
It was me quoting Dr Houston,who was an older he's still
alive, he's like 102 now, but hewas an older former professor
and president out at RegentCollege, a seminary in Vancouver
, british Columbia, and agraduate theological college
(21:46):
they call it and he said to mewhen we were driving the car and
I was in my late 30s, he saidyou've suffered much being
single.
And when he said that, itpierced me and I didn't want to
hear those words.
And then he said your motherhas suffered with you being
(22:08):
single.
And then I was like, oh, he'sgetting my business.
And I could feel my adrenalinegoing up and I'm getting chatty
right and I'm trying to sort ofredirect.
Yeah, but I've seen God in allthese ways show up, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah and I hop outof the car as quickly as I can.
He's dropping me off afterdinner with him and his wife and
(22:29):
I go upstairs to where I'mstaying there in Vancouver and I
just turn on a movie because Isomehow want to escape what he's
been touching on in my soul andit ends up being that old movie
, Mel Gibson, braveheart.
I don't know if you remember,but it's got quite a lot of
drama and so much pathos and I'mwatching it.
I just start to sob and Irealized his words had cut into
(22:54):
me and that in a way I wasn'tgoing to get to any freedom in
my singleness until I hadgrieved with the Lord the parts
that really did feel like agenuine loss.
So I think for the person who'sover 30 or over 40 and is
(23:15):
contending with unsoughtsingleness, one thing is to
realize there is, or certainlycan be for many people, an
element of suffering in it andto be able to grieve, to name it
and to grieve it.
And, like with any suffering,we don't live in it forever.
(23:36):
But if we don't own it alongthe way, I think it's our shared
friend Christina who said to meone time that wounds buried
alive never die, they just comeback as zombies.
And so we've got to tend to thewounds and then, as the wounds
(23:58):
are tended and I don't mean it'sa one and done sort of thing,
but over time, as the wounds aretended more deeply, with the
Lord and hopefully a few others,trusted others.
I think there becomes thisstrange opportunity to realize
that I too, as a single person,am bringing something of Jesus
(24:20):
to the world around me that'sdistinct, that it needs to see
in my singleness.
If marriage, aspirationally atleast, can bring an image of
Christ in the church, I think mybeing sustained and even
starting to discover joy in mysingleness brings a picture of
(24:41):
the church as it awaits theconsummation right, and that it
can speak and I have theopportunity to discover how my
singleness can be experiencedand then speak of Jesus meeting
me in the waiting.
And so it's like there's acertain role I think holy role
(25:10):
that my singleness can bring tothe world around me in terms of
mirroring something about Jesusand the church, just like,
obviously, marriage is meant tobe able to do.
So I've taken some strengthfrom that.
I don't know, so grieving whatneeds to be grieved and then
looking for what is the good andholy role that God has called
(25:32):
me into in my singleness.
And who knows, maybe I getmarried a year from now, but for
now, what has he called me intoand how might he be pouring out
of my life in ways that only mysingleness would allow for?
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Yes, that is just so good and I'm grateful that you
are inviting people to thatplace of grief.
Yeah, because I think there'sthis idea that you know, okay,
you just got to suck it up, yougot to suck it up, you got to
suck it up.
Keep on jumping on the datingapps in between, but suck it up
(26:12):
and not really bring that griefto the foot of the cross,
because there is a grief thatJesus shares with us in that and
he wants it.
And I don't think we're invitedenough to bring our grief to
the Lord.
(26:32):
And even practicing lament thatis a biblical practice, to
lament, because those thingsactually can push you closer to
the Lord, because he wants totake that.
And, just as you said, there'ssomething.
Then there's an exchange thatwill happen that the Lord wants
to give you in exchange for thatgrief, Because he understands
(26:57):
he doesn't want you to carry itforever.
He wants to have thisopportunity to then take it,
because he's the burden bearer,and then give you something rich
and beautiful in that,absolutely, I mean.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
I think too, as I was able to name, to articulate, to
feel, to find healing in mygrief, I also began to realize,
wow, this isn't just about me.
Like we live in a culturethat's lost meaningful side of
what it is to be human andtherefore what it is to love,
(27:35):
and I think a lot of theunsought singleness and I know
there's people who seeksingleness, but I'm talking to
those who haven't sought it buthave found themselves there the
unsought singleness, at least inpart, isn't just about me and
my stuff or me and my inabilityto make a relationship happen.
It's also the byproduct of aculture that's lost its way in
(27:57):
terms of what it is to be humanand what it is to love.
Somehow that was freeing torealize this wasn't just my
issue but it's part and parcelof some bigger things going on
in our culture and somehow thatwas helpful to me yeah, so true,
so true.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Well, connelly, this has been just a wonderful
conversation with you.
Are there any final?
Are there any final thoughts ora final thought that you want
to share with our listeners?
As for those who are single andare just in that place of
contemplating what theirsingleness means in the grand
(28:38):
scheme of life, yeah, I will saythis.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
I think the single people who have seemed, on the
whole, happiest to me do seem tobe woven into some kind of
families, some kind of family,and not necessarily their
original blood family, thoughthat can be great if that's
(29:03):
available, but that's notavailable to everybody, and so,
if that's not your currentexperience, there's not you know
some family who you go over andplay games with on a Saturday
night or whose kids' sportingevents you see periodically?
Ask the Lord.
It says God sets the lonely infamilies, families, and that
(29:27):
might mean your own family, andthat's great.
And pray for that.
If that is what you want like,pray for that.
Who knows what God can create,um, really, from what you can't
see at all, from seeminglynothing he can create, and it
also might be him weaving you into the life of a family,
(29:50):
perhaps from your church, someother context where the shared
blood of Christ is what ties youtogether.
And yeah, that's what I wouldencourage people to ask for.
If it's not yet their story, ohthanks so much for that.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
So, connelly, I would love to have you just pray for
those who are listening, just tosend them off with a blessing.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Okay, that would be my delight, my joy.
So, father, I thank you forKyle, I thank you for her story
and all her levels of grapplingand discovering and tasting
tears and tasting joy, and thankyou for our friendship.
God, thank you for thisministry and, god, I do thank
you for the men and women whoare listening.
(30:36):
God, would you do somethingamong us that is beyond what we
can ask or imagine relationally?
Us, that is beyond what we canask or imagine relationally?
Would you give each of us justone next idea, one next step
that you would help us to liveinto the fullness of who we are,
as men or as women, as sexualbeings, lord, and as image
(31:00):
bearers, in a relationallyconfused culture, lord, but in
one where you've created us forrich interdependence and
fruitfulness, god.
So give us one idea and give usa deep sense of your presence
as we journey.
Ask all of these things inJesus' name, by the power of the
Holy Spirit, amen.
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