October 21, 2025 • 55 mins
Culture keeps shouting two bad options for men: shrink your strength or dominate with it. We want to share something truer and more human —a third way shaped by Jesus, the one who washed feet, wept with friends, and laid down his life. This conversation explores how Christ-shaped masculinity can transform recovery from a project of behavioral control into a path of formation, where shame is faced, strength is refined, and love prevails.
If you’re ready for a path that turns shame into strength, clarifies desire, and forms a man who gives his good for others’ good, this one’s for you. Listen, share with a friend, and tell us: where do you want to grow in Christ-like strength today? And if this helped you, subscribe, leave a review, and pass it on to someone who needs hope.
Resources:
An Invitation for our annual women's retreat.
Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole:
- Email us questions! info@regenerationministries.org
👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Today's culture tells men to either tone it down
or turn it up, repress yourmasculinity or unleash it
without limits.
But for men in recovery, neitherpath works.
You've tried powering through,you've tried hiding, and both
(00:21):
have left you empty.
What if recovery isn't the endof your manhood, but the
beginning of the real thing?
What if the model for truemanhood isn't found in culture
but in a carpenter from Nazarethwho washed feet, wept with
friends, and laid down his life?
(00:42):
Jesus not only forgives us, healso shows us how to be a man.
A man who takes responsibility,seeks healing, and leads with
love.
Hey friends, welcome into theBecoming Whole podcast.
I'm Aaron Taggart, and I'mjoined today by Josh Glazer to
unpack how Christ-shapedmasculinity can turn shame into
(01:06):
strength, reframe sexuality, andhelp you become the man you were
created to be.
Josh, what is up, man?
SPEAKER_00 (01:18):
What is up?
Aaron, there's not time forthat.
There's not time.
We're recording a podcast.
I can't get into all that otherstuff.
Uh I'm no, I'm I'm eager to getinto this.
We you and I have been talking alittle bit for a while about the
intersection of manhood andrecovery for people.
And I'm I'm thinking about ourlisteners.
So whether you're married orsingle, male or female, I do
(01:40):
think that we're going to getinto today has implications for
all of us, but we we did want tospeak specifically to men who
are in recovery because there'ssome there's some tension spots,
some cruxes in the climb, somepitfalls, I think that men
specifically can get into asthey're trying to walk away from
unmanosexual behavior.
Uh both things that led theminto the problem to begin with,
(02:00):
but also things that keep themstuck, even while they're trying
to enter fully into recovery.
So I'm looking forward to theconversation that ensues.
SPEAKER_01 (02:10):
So, Josh, as we talk about this intersection of
manhood and recovery, where doesyour mind go first?
SPEAKER_00 (02:23):
Shame.
I think I think for a lot ofmen, both uh getting getting
going in recovery and eventhrough recovery, experience a
lot of shame in the area oftheir manhood.
Uh, and I think a lot ofconfusion also, that maybe that
would be the second thing.
So shame and confusion,confusion about like what I'm
(02:43):
what am I what am I shooting forhere?
Because I think that we're insuch a hyper-sexualized culture,
even for those of us who havegrown up in Christian circles, I
think there can still be a senseof like, if I'm if I'm and I'm
I'm not gonna stand by thesewords, but on some level, if I'm
feeling like I'm I'm trying totame a part of what makes me a
man, and maybe even sexualsobriety feels a little bit like
(03:08):
emasculating in some way, like,and some of the tasks of
recovery feel shaming oremasculating.
You know, I've got to talk aboutmy feelings, I've gotta say no
to my sexual desires, thingslike that.
So I don't think any of thosethings are true, but I do think
that shame, confusion gets intothe mix for a lot of guys when
(03:28):
it comes to to recovery.
Well, I what about you?
What anything close to that ordifferent than that?
SPEAKER_01 (03:34):
Disappointment, maybe, you know, and maybe
oneself, maybe that's probablyshame.
Uh no, but just uh thinkinglike, you know, uh, I had these
big dreams, or I was gonna dothis, or I was gonna do that,
and I'm falling short of that.
Yes.
This isn't the type of you know,husband I wanted to be.
This isn't the type of man likeI thought I I would be.
(03:56):
And I think we have like, andit's so important to be careful
there because I think you know,we can get into we could say
things that that maybe we don'ttruly believe like in our
hearts, but they're but there'sso much in the forefront of our
minds that we can start to agreewith those things and we can
start to really wear that shameuh as I am a you know
(04:21):
disappointment of a man or I amthis or you know, it's like that
lens is not not helpful, uh, andit's not it's not what the Lord
intended, right?
It's not what Jesus, um, Jesusdoesn't say in in the word, you
know, like I've made you knowbad men or I've made you know
that like his creation is good.
(04:44):
Uh and the and the enemy isthwarting that and wants to
thwart that and even internally,so that internal dialogue to
kind of turn ourselves inward,kind of into shame, to begin to
speak, you know, these thingsthat would be contrary to what
what what the Lord's actuallyintended.
SPEAKER_00 (05:00):
Yeah, but I I think it's I think you're so right to
identify it though.
I think it's a I think it's agood because if we don't if we
don't if we don't let peopleknow about the shame, if we
don't let people know about theconfusion, we don't let people
know about how we feeldisappointed or that we're the
disappointment, then it can justget buried into that that place
inside of us and just justperpetuate, you know, it just
(05:23):
can stay there.
So there's a difference betweenspeaking it out as as and and
kind of ruminating on it asthough it is true.
It's the you know, foundationaltruth who I am, and getting it
out as I'm wrestling with thesethoughts, I'm wrestling with
these feelings in my heart.
And I think I think you tapped atender spot for me because my
wife and I are coming up on 24years of marriage, and actually
(05:46):
we we will have been married 24when this podcast airs.
And I I I can tell you that thethe spaces in my life that have
felt most shamed as a man ormost shameful as a man have come
out in relationship with thiswoman who knows me better than
anybody else.
(06:06):
And so when she puts her fingeron or says something about, or
the look on her face revealsthat I have not been the man
that I desire to be.
Oh my gosh, like uh I wastelling her recently, and and
that I I get why I get whypeople get divorced.
And I don't mean that I'm on,you know, anywhere close to
(06:28):
getting divorced, but but the shthe shame and the pain of like I
am not what I always imagined Icould be for you.
And and and I know that in somemarriages that that's exactly
what the man hears from life.
You are not who I thought Imarried.
You're not the man I married,you're not who I thought you
were like, it's just brutal, so,so painful.
(06:49):
And I think that gets into, andmaybe we'll get into this later,
but why this topic is soimportant, because I think that
there are ways that if ourrecovery is kind of neutered, so
to speak, if we if we kind ofjust look at recovery through a
through a lens of it has nothingto do with manhood or womanhood,
I think we can miss some ofthese places in a man's heart
that specifically want forsomething in relationship to his
(07:11):
wife, or want for something inrelationship to other men, or
want for something as he standsand looks himself in the mirror,
that that are power eitherpowerfully helpful in in
launching him forward towardsrecovery, aspirational, or
they're they're crippling.
Does that make sense?
Am I am I making sense?
SPEAKER_01 (07:28):
Yeah, no, yeah, absolutely absolutely.
And yeah, I will we're we'regoing on 19 years, uh, my wife
and I.
And so, but and I resonate withso much of you know what what
you're sharing, you know, andand just the sense of how much
you know the the good, bad, andthe ugly, like she's she sees it
all.
She's experienced, you know, somuch of that, even in you know,
(07:50):
through my own recovery andhealing and and coming to kind
of yeah, changing some ways ofrelating, you know, that uh
weren't so great in the past,you know, that are very
different now.
Not always perfect, but still,you know, much a much different
place than that than they theywere.
(08:10):
And so it it does it is aconstant, almost never-ending
sort of it's part of thejourney, I think.
You know, and uh I love thatword journey because it's kind
of adventurous and you don'talways know uh how you're gonna
get to the end, but you kind ofhave this sense of, you know,
(08:31):
when we're watching a some likea movie, you sort of have this
idea of the ending, but it theall the things along the way,
and you're like, you know, onthe edge of your seat or gasping
because you know, one of thecharacters, you know, died, or
whatever it might be, right?
You don't know the end from thebeginning, but sort of with this
humility, and that maybe that'swhat's really coming up, is just
(08:54):
entering into this into thisthis cross section of manhood
and recovery with humility uh onthe journey, and to be able to
receive a word from you know mywife that before would have just
left me in a in a like don't Idon't want to go there, I don't
(09:17):
want to talk about these things,like and just a softness, you
know, there's a there's achange.
Um, and I think that maybe isyou know humility.
SPEAKER_00 (09:27):
Wait, so Aaron, I'm I'm thinking about some of the
guys listening.
First of all, shout out to menand women listening who are
single who are not married.
Yeah.
Because I think that you too canexperience some of that same,
whether it's you know, marriageis in the future for you, or or
you might be at a spot whereyou've lost a marriage or you're
still you want to be married andyou're waiting, or some of you
(09:50):
who've decided I'm not gonnamarry, I'm I'm devoting my life
to the Lord and serving him.
Praise God, uh, wherever youare.
So maybe for those folkslistening, where where does that
shame button get pushed for youmost?
Maybe it's in in just that veryfact that you're not married,
you know, even if it's by choicethat you're not married and and
yet the people around you arekind of like, well, so when are
(10:11):
you gonna get married?
And because shame, I think shamecan be so debilitating.
But Aaron, I think what I wantedto ask you was in what ways
would you say that as you're asyou're thinking back on the
things that have changed foryou, how how is your because
that we're talking about manhoodas it relates to recovery.
So in what ways has the shamefor you been connected to a
(10:31):
sense of your manhood?
And in what ways is thesoftening for you that you
described an outflow of yourmanhood or different, a
different kind of manhood thanyou thought, or I don't know,
what whatever you'd fill thatblank in, but like just overlay
what you just said, overlaymanhood on top of that, and
yeah, what's specific to you asas you feel like your own sense
of manhood with that?
SPEAKER_01 (10:53):
Man, that's that's deep.
Manhood um for me, it's reallygrowing in the sense of I am
becoming, and again, I go backto the journey um sort of
analogy, but I'm becomingsomething better.
(11:14):
Uh, there's sort of more,there's more to be done uh in a
way, and not in a way like ofstriving or I've got to check
this box or check that box, butI think it's growing an
awareness of maybe where I'vehad some weaknesses or
shortcomings and allowing theLord to come into those places
(11:37):
to make them not as tender, likeyou know, like something like a
word doesn't cut the same way umwhen there's been healing.
Uh, you know, a look doesn't cutthe same way when there's been
you know some growth.
Um, and so I think as I as Ithink about, yeah, right.
(11:58):
I know that's probably evenstirring up some things like for
people, man, the words and thelooks that that we might receive
from others, you know, and howdo we hold that and what does it
do to us?
But I think as I think about mymanhood in those sort of ways,
that there is this sense of likeI'm still I'm still becoming.
Like I'm not there, like it'sit's not complete.
(12:21):
I'm not complete in that in thatsense until you know, and until
I'm in eternity, this is anongoing process of getting
sharper and and growing in thesedifferent areas.
SPEAKER_00 (12:35):
So I so it's part of what I hear in that is I think
there's a a real kind ofrescuing word for people
listening for to begin thinking,like, let's let's forsake the
idea that manhood is is a pointof arrival, wherever that would
be.
You know, it's you you turned18, you turned 21, you got into
the military, you got married,you had your first kids, you got
(12:58):
the dream job, you whatever,whatever whatever it would be
that you kind of say that thosefalse finish lines.
And if we were to just kind offrame up, like manhood is
journey.
Womanhood is too.
It's a it's a parallel butdifferent journey.
But manhood is journey, andrather than a place of arrival,
(13:22):
it it is a a journey that we'reon.
So I mean, just riffing off whatyou're saying about journey and
what that could do to our ownsense of shame, reducing shame.
So when we realize there's arough edge, when we realize
there's a space where we'reletting someone down, we're
letting ourselves down, we'restill in disobedience, we're
still wrestling with our sin.
(13:44):
Instead of that being like the asentence over us of thou art not
a man, it's a uh no, I'm I'mstill on the journey, and that
is what men do.
It reminds me that I'm gonna Iwon't I was gonna it remind me
of a quote by C.S.
Lewis about just the mostimportant part part is that we
(14:04):
don't give up.
And so instead of kind ofthinking like, okay, a man is
not supposed to do these things,if we were to say, well, a man
is is supposed to keep gettingup when he fails to do those
things, you know.
So kind of holding intentionthat we haven't we have
something we're aspiring to asmen, and we are men.
We are men and we're on thejourney, and that's what men do.
(14:27):
Yeah, I think there can besomething helpful for people
more Christ-like in that.
SPEAKER_01 (14:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm reminded, you know, too,as we're talking about this in
particular, I've uh had theopportunity to do a lot of work
with forming men that JeffersonBethke and John Tyson have put
together.
And one of the things that theysay sort of over and over and
over again is that men aren'tborn, they're formed.
So there is this real sense offormation and and not just uh,
(14:57):
and again, like it's not justlike, oh, I've I'm now formed
into this and I'm done.
It's an ongoing sort offormation.
You know, we are constantlybeing formed uh and informed.
Uh the things that we take inaffect us in in different ways.
And so what are we doing to toallow those to to shape us in in
(15:20):
these in these positive ways?
SPEAKER_00 (15:22):
I like that.
SPEAKER_01 (15:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:24):
One one thing I I kind of gasped when you were
talking earlier, and I don'tknow if this this may be just a
comment that we don't need tospend a lot of time on, but it
struck me that the places ofweakness that we feel ashamed of
ashamed about can often be thoseplaces where we where our
masculine strength comes outsideways and hurts somebody.
So my wife says something andand it hits this this wound or
(15:47):
it exposes some area where I'mI'm not who I want to be and it
kicks up before the shame cancome out as anger.
And I can get either passiveaggressive or you know, that
brooding male silence in the inthe house or just overly
stressed with our kids, or orsome men may you know launch out
yelling at their their wives.
I mean, what whatever that orfor our audience, we go to porn
(16:11):
and it's this this space ofanger where we haven't we're not
dealing with what's reallyhurting, and we we run into porn
where we're in control.
We get to be in charge and weget to we're not gonna be hurt,
we're gonna, we're gonna hurt.
We're not gonna uh be uhoverpowered, we're gonna
overpower.
In contrast, that doing the workof opening those rough edges to
(16:34):
the Lord, acknowledging our sin,acknowledging our iniquity, and
acknowledging our inadequacy.
And in in time, actually makesus men who are stronger.
And instead of that strength,that that kind of boyish,
adolescent, you know, tempertantrum strength coming out
sideways, the way you describedit is you're actually able to
(16:55):
stand with a hard word, and itdoesn't cut you down the same
way.
There's an inner strength thatthat comes out of you because of
the work of recovery, the hardwork of walking in
sanctification with Jesus.
So that when your wife sayssomething about you that's
negative, you can be like, hmm,yep, that's you know what,
you're right.
I'm sorry.
That wasn't, you know, there'sjust a very different
(17:16):
demonstration of of strength.
It's a it's a response being andis responsible for what's
happening rather than reactingand trying to push that place to
feel so shameful away.
So way to go, man.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:30):
Thank you.
Josh, let me ask you anotherquestion here on um just some of
the work that uh you've donewith men.
And I know you've been doingthis for you've been doing this
for quite a while.
SPEAKER_00 (17:41):
Since I was a boy.
SPEAKER_01 (17:42):
Yeah, well, there you go.
When it comes to leading andloving as Christ intended, in in
relationship, where do you seemen most commonly
misunderstanding what truemanhood looks like?
SPEAKER_00 (17:57):
Yeah, great question.
Two things pop right away.
I think you've got two differentresponses.
They're not that they're oftenprobably expressed in one kind
of manner or another, but Ithink men can even flip-flop
back and forth between thesetwo.
The first is that men miss theloving part and just do the
leading part.
I'm supposed to lead, I'm incharge.
Um, my for example, for amarried man, my wife's supposed
(18:20):
to submit to me.
And the number of stories we'veheard over the years from
husbands and wives in recovery.
I mean, I'm I remember sharingat a parenting conference years
ago, and I was talking aboutChrist-like love and how
husband, wife or husband'ssupposed to love his wife this
way.
And this wife, God bless her,comes up to me at the end.
She waits for a she waits for anopening when there's nobody else
(18:40):
near.
And then she just kind of stepsup and quietly says what you
were just talking about, how ahusband is supposed to love his
wife.
I, I, my husband does not loveme anywhere close to that.
She got connected to some of thewomen on our team and ends up
there's just all sorts ofabusive, manipulative, coercive
stuff in the name of this man isthe leader of the home.
(19:02):
And uh it was it's awful.
And that kind of stuff happens.
It happens between pastors andparishioners, it happens between
husbands and wives.
So that the leading without loveis the one.
And if if we bear the image ofGod uniquely in our manhood, the
image that gives of what God islike, and and I think the image
that those men have of what Godis like is just cruel and it's
(19:25):
and it is not scriptural.
It's it's it's gross.
So if you are a man and that'skind of where you are, I want to
just, as a word of compassion toyou, say your image of God is
making you into somebody that heis not and he never intended you
to be.
And he wants you to realize andknow him and the loving leader
that he is over you.
(19:47):
On the other side is men who,when they think about love, all
they all they've got is kind ofa, and I think this is more and
more real in our 21st century,but a disempowered, kind of uh
watery, just go with whateverkind of love that says that
(20:09):
doesn't have a backbone thatcan't stand up to that which is
wrong.
And then so a man in a marriagerelationship in that regard
might be, you know, likewhatever, whatever you say,
dear.
I'll I'll just be quiet.
I'll, you know, men have hurtothers.
I don't want to be a man whohurts others.
Uh men have been abusive,they've used their power to
control.
I don't want to be one of thoseguys.
And so they just kind ofacquiesce all their God-given
(20:34):
strength and uh and leadershipand kind of step aside.
And I think that too is amistake.
In some ways, a less harmfulmistake, but but also a harmful
mistake.
Because leadership and and andmore broadly, whether you you're
you have a specific area ofleadership or not, if you're a
(20:54):
man and you're acquiescing yourmanhood, you you you are leaving
open to those around you,whether it's family or friends
or just the culture around you,you are leaving them open to
something that you were meant tocarry, you were meant to bear,
you were meant to take that hit.
The longer I've been a leader,the longer I've been a husband,
the more I'm like, oh my gosh,like I don't understand those
(21:15):
who aspire to leadership.
I mean, I kind of do.
I think they're a differentfabric than me, and I admire
them greatly, but like, but someof the, some of the the risk,
some of the weight, some of theburden of leadership is uh is it
makes sense why leadership ismeant to be something that
servants do.
Because leaders do take hitsthat others don't take and they
(21:37):
bear burdens that others don'ttake, uh, don't don't bear.
Um and then more broadly formen, I think that there's
there's correlation.
And then I'm trying to make adistinction.
I don't think that men areautomatically leaders because
they're men.
I don't think that's I know thatsome people believe that.
I I don't I don't find that inscripture.
I think that there are certainroles that that men are called
to by God.
Um, but not not because they'remore intelligent, not because
(22:00):
they're more physically fit.
If anything, it's just, yep, I'mgonna put men, you you serve in
this way, but maybe that's awhole nother conversation.
I'm not sure we want to getinto.
But so this so that was a longanswer.
But the to to sum up, on the oneside, using strength to and and
kind of a uh machismo leadershipwithout love, the other is kind
of a quote unquote love thatactually doesn't have a backbone
(22:22):
to love like Christ loves.
So you hear all that.
What what pops in that for you?
What would you agree to say?
SPEAKER_01 (22:30):
Yeah, and I wanted to go back to to like the first
thing I thought, you know, is uhwell done, kind of I think
articulating the two sides ofthat.
Um, I reson like resonate withboth of those sides at some
point, and um it's very helpfuluh to hear it put that way.
But I when you were talkingabout the first one, kind of
that sort of um almost like amisuse of the power without the
(22:54):
love, right?
Like being just going right forthe leading, like I'm gonna lead
with sort of a lack ofgentleness or love, or and and
the first thing that popped inmy head is you know, it's it if
we say God is and we pause, likewhat is one of the first words
that come to mind?
And for me, it was God is love,yeah.
And I'm like, okay, well, shoot,like if God is love, then how am
(23:19):
I showing up as that in myrelationship as I lead my life?
If God is love, how am I leadingin love?
Um, and letting that sort offrame that.
And I think, man, what a that uhI I that could be a game
changer, you know, because thewe want to lead and we want to
(23:44):
do well, you know, and and andwhatever that means, you know,
we everything's sort of measuredin success, I feel like, you
know, and so like how successfulam I at leading or doing these
things?
And that's where a lot of theshame comes in.
Like, man, I've I've gone toporn, I'm I'm acting out, I'm
doing these things.
And so, man, I'm not I'm notleading well.
(24:07):
And and and and then I don'tlove well because I'm like my
shame and it comes out sideways,and now I'm angry.
And and so I I think, man,there's so many things I think
that get into that.
But if we like just again, thatGod is love and letting that
sort of be the okay.
So here, like now sit in that.
(24:27):
Okay, if God is love, what doesthat invoke for you as far as
you how do you want to lead ifyou're sitting in like God is
love?
SPEAKER_00 (24:36):
Yeah, yeah.
And uh to be just vulnerable fora minute, I think out of those
two poles of mistakes that menmake and and in that regard, men
make, I probably err on this onthe side of the second, where
I'm more likely to be the guywho says, you know, I know men
have hurt.
I mean, that was my experiencegrowing up.
And it wasn't a full story, butit was a story that that really
(24:58):
took hold in my life.
I saw men hurting women, uh,emotionally, physically, and I
was I was determined not to bethat kind of man.
But I but it didn't leave mewith much of a, well, then what
kind of man am I supposed to be?
Um, what what is what does mymanhood look like then?
And and there was fear that gotin there for me and all those
(25:20):
things.
I think a corrective, a helpfulcorrective for both is defining,
well, what does it mean that Godis love?
What is love?
And one of my favoritedefinitions, I I I haven't found
one I like more.
So if somebody's listening andthey're like, oh, I got one you
might like more, you know, shootus an email, we'd like to hear
it.
But is in general, and I'mgonna, there are different ways
to articulate this, but ingeneral, love is giving of a
(25:41):
good gift, giving all the goodyou have for the good of
another.
And it's such a helpful thing aswe think about sexual addiction
recovery or growing in sexualintegrity, because if I am meant
to give the good of me forsomeone else's good, it's me
giving of myself for theirnumber one, I have to believe
(26:02):
that I am a good gift.
And and Caravoy Tivo writesabout this like you have to
recognize that you that you thatyou have good gifts and you are
a good gift to give.
And so is manhood a gift tobring to the equation or not?
Is it a gift to those around?
And I don't mean like a, youknow, I'm a gift, worship, you
know, I mean, but but ratherlike has God given me something
(26:24):
good in my body as a man?
Is there something good aboutthe the the my deep voice, about
my muscles, about my stature,about the way my brain works,
about the ways that I'mdifferent from a woman?
Is there something, is there agood gift in the area of my
sexuality, my sexual desire?
It doesn't mean that all thatI'm perfect.
It doesn't mean that everythingabout me doesn't need to, I
(26:46):
don't need you know, refinementor sanctification, but is there
good to give there?
And if I don't know what thatgood is, and I think for our
audience, like, what is the goodof your sexuality?
What is the good of your sexualdesire?
And if you don't know that it isgood, then I would argue if
you're married, your your sexlife with your wife is going to
be severely crippled.
(27:06):
Like you have to, you have toget to, and this is a topic for
another podcast, but like, whyis your sexuality as a man as a
man a gift to your wife?
Why is your body, how is yourbody a gift to her?
So for love to be love, you haveto know the gift that you're
giving is a good gift.
How do you know that?
Well, because what scriptureteaches we love because God
first loved us.
(27:28):
And so we you have to like sitin his presence, like find out,
like how, like, Lord, you loveme?
You love me today, like this.
You love my body, you love my soand then and the second half of
that is given for the good ofanother.
And so, as opposed to theleadership model, which is just
lead, well, what's for what towhat end?
To what for the good of theother, not for your good, not
(27:51):
for as you said, Aaron, not forsuccess, not for you know, being
able to have a a great Christmascard that shows all my kids, you
know, dressed in the sameclothes as me.
And and I don't mean that youknow if you do that, great,
like, but I'm just saying, like,what what's the end?
Is it outward appearance or isit really no for the good of
another person?
Which in the end really is sofreeing because it opens up so
(28:14):
many doors.
Like, if anyway, that yeah, likeit's maybe a little beyond the
scope of what we're talkingabout, but can can we form our
lives?
Can and can our own sexualintegrity journey, our own
growth as men, be around theidea of becoming those who
recognize the good gift we areand that by God's grace and
learn to give it away for thegood of another.
SPEAKER_01 (28:36):
Yeah, I'm thinking about thinking about something I
learned in in my own journeythat that's really hitting right
now, and that was getting tothis place of realizing that I
will never be able to meet allof my wife's needs.
SPEAKER_00 (28:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:52):
And that's not, I wasn't intended to do that.
SPEAKER_00 (28:55):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (28:56):
Um I can be used by God to minister to her needs.
And there was honestly somethingthat happened in me when I first
heard that, you know, that like,oh, that I mean, that makes a
lot of sense, you know, and allthese pressures I put on myself
to to be like the perfect leaderor the perfect, you know, loving
(29:20):
in the perfect ways.
And man, I'm falling short, I'mfalling short, I'm falling
short.
Like, whoa, like what freedom toknow that I I'm not responsible
to meet her all of her needs,but the Lord can use me to
minister to them.
SPEAKER_00 (29:34):
That's a great distinction.
SPEAKER_01 (29:35):
Yeah, and so I think that's just a beautiful way
again of like bringing in bothsort of the leading and and the
loving, because there's thatdesires in uh in in that in both
of those.
And I also get this picture ofNehemiah, um, in Nehemiah 4,
when he's I think it's four, um,he's he's working to rebuild the
(29:55):
wall, and there's a point wherelike like just I see these
families kind of.
All around, like in like in mymind as I'm reading this, and
and there's a sense of likethey're building the wall, but
they're also sort of defendingand leading like the fan.
So I I think of the phrase likebuild and defend.
Like in one hand, you know, youyou he kind of had a sword like
(30:16):
for defending, and the otherhand he had a trowel, uh, as
he's maybe sort of doing some ofthis masonry work to re rebuild
the wall.
And so this kind of building anddefending, and simultaneously
kind of being able to hold spacefor both of those things in our
manhood, in our leadership, inthe ways that we that we love.
SPEAKER_00 (30:36):
That's beautiful.
I love that.
And I love the I love that I'mI'm not meant to meet all her
needs, but I I can as herhusband.
And for those singles listening,I can, in the relationship with
other people around me, I canhelp minister to their needs.
That's a I've never heard thatdistinction before.
I like that a lot.
That is really freeing.
(30:57):
It's and it also goes with thejourney idea of like I was
saying the more I grow, the moreI'm connected to others, maybe
the more I can minister.
And maybe even the more I getclear about like, I'm not really
good about ministering in thisway.
Let me let me resource you orlet me encourage you like
elsewhere.
That's really good, Aaron.
I like that a lot.
Yeah, thanks.
SPEAKER_01 (31:17):
And it wasn't for me, so that but yeah, I forget
where I heard that, but it wasuh it's been a just a sweet
thing, and and I, you know, Itry to keep that in the
forefront.
And I use that in coaching too.
I share that with guys all thetime that you know that it's
about you know the being sort ofallowing God to use them to
minister uh and and not so muchto to meet.
(31:40):
So um, and I'm sure we couldkeep talking about that for a
while.
But I I would love to uh andthen this has kind of come up a
little bit, Josh, uh, already,but I think there's uh I think
there's a little bit more thatwe can say on this, and that is
sort of this idea of what mightchange for a guy in recovery, uh
a man in recovery, if he shiftsfrom shame-driven passivity or
(32:03):
aggression towardChrist-centered strength.
SPEAKER_00 (32:09):
Yeah, maybe maybe we need to s to even start by what
is the difference?
Like what is what is Christ,what is Christ's strength and
what is Christ-centeredstrength.
And I'm I want to just keep thatback to you.
Like, what comes to mind for youwhen you think about if a man is
supposed to aspire to or operatefrom a place of Christ-centered
strength, and how how do youdefine that, or what comes to
(32:31):
mind for you when you thinkabout that?
SPEAKER_01 (32:33):
Well, I mean, immediately I get this picture
of Jesus kind of standing therewith his hands open, sort of in
a in this posture that thatcould either be to give or to
receive.
And I think um Yeah, I don'tknow.
(32:58):
I I I come back to that humilityand and and just humbling
oneself, humbling myself to knowthat what I've maybe done
doesn't def it's it's not a it'snot a sentence for my future.
It doesn't mean I'm gonna showup in those same ways.
Like so there's a I can receivesomething better.
(33:21):
I can um I don't know if I'm Idon't know if I'm helping here.
SPEAKER_00 (33:26):
Well, no, I think I wait, can I jump in?
Then you I just bought myself alittle bit of time to think as
you were talking.
SPEAKER_01 (33:32):
Yeah, no, no, no, it's good.
SPEAKER_00 (33:34):
I think one one of the places where I experienced
the most shame as a man over theyears, both in recovery, as a
leader, as a father, as ahusband, as a friend, or when I
rub up against places that Ihave received messages or heard
things about what a man issupposed to be, and I don't feel
I measure up.
(33:55):
Whether it's I think I'msupposed to be stronger
physically, more decisive, morecourageous, able to do more
things around the house, have ahave a sex drive that's
different than mine, have adifferent level of confidence.
Uh, and that happens a lot incomparison to other men, whether
it's explicit from other mensaying, you know, this is what
(34:15):
real men are like, you know, andthey fill in the blank.
Um, I know I I'm you and I areboth fans of John Eldridge, but
I know when his book Wild atHeart came out, there were some,
a lot of men who read it andsaid, this whole like get out in
nature thing kind of vibe isnot, does not describe me.
Like I don't feel that call towarrior, you know, like as
(34:36):
Eldridge was talking about it.
And I think uh there are waysthat I did, ways that I didn't.
I I kind of took itmetaphorically and symbolically
more than literally from him,but but I know that that so for
a lot of men, like whether heand I don't think Eldridge meant
it this way, but I think somemen took that as kind of like, I
don't, I don't fit this mold ofmanhood.
So I think one of the places ofoperating from Christ-like
(34:59):
strength is recognizing thatthat manhood is something
primarily bestowed by God andthat there are different kinds
of men.
Just like when Paul writes aboutdifferent your they're different
members of the body, and thispart of the body can't say to
another part of the body, I haveno need of you.
If you're laying up those likelists of of of gifts, you know,
there's there's apostle.
(35:20):
Oh, that's that's manly, youknow, that's there's leadership,
like that's manly, like, youknow, there's uh there's
teacher, maybe that, you know,like there's mercy.
Yeah.
You know, is that like there'sthere's shepherding?
Is that, you know, like I mean,so even looking at that, like,
okay, hold on, hold on.
If that's a list of of qualitiesthat both men and women can
have, gifts that either men orwomen can have, then what does
(35:41):
it mean?
It will it it means if nothingelse, there are different kinds
of men.
There are different kinds ofwomen.
I will I'll like one of thehardest things for me as a man,
like when I first got married,to discover that my wife was
stronger in the area of ofleadership than I was.
And I I would tell you, like,she she I think she has the gift
of leadership, and I've seen itin action, and it is amazing to
(36:02):
me.
It's powerful.
And initially it felt reallyemasculating.
I was like, and I remember oneday, I it was actually not long
after I'd become executivedirector here too, and I was
seeing some failures there too.
I remember falling down in myoffice and I was like, what are
you doing, Lord?
Are you are you just toying?
Are you playing with me?
Are you trying to shame me?
Like, why are you putting me inthese positions where I like my
(36:24):
my lack of leadership ability,my lack of leadership gifting is
getting shunted like this?
And I was thinking especiallyabout my marriage.
I was like, Lord, I I don'tknow, like this just doesn't, it
feels emasculating because I'dheard over and over again, like,
you know, the man's theleadership, the leader in the
home.
And there's scriptural basis forthat.
But what does a man do thenwho's married to somebody who's
got a stronger gift ofleadership than he does?
And that was my situation.
(36:44):
The Lord spoke to me.
And it was one of those momentswhere I knew he spoke because it
just lined up with whatscripture taught, but it was
also not something I expected.
What he said was, and it wasit'll make me tear up if I think
too much about it, but he said,um, I wouldn't entrust her to
anybody else.
And it came with just this deepsense of like, I want her to
(37:07):
have your mercy.
I want her to have yourshepherding, your tenderness.
And so I'm like, okay, how do Ilead in our home?
Like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna bringit.
I'm gonna bring who I am, andI'm gonna, I'm gonna give that
good gift as a gift for hergood, including bring it to her
leadership gifting, that shemight grow to be stronger in
that way.
(37:28):
And I've done not done thatperfectly over the years, but I
I hope that lines up.
So, so coming back to whatyou're saying and like a whole
or law question, like, I thinkwhere shame tells us you're not
enough, I think oftentimes it'sthe accuser pointing at
something that we're where we'refailing and God intends us to
grow.
So we need to be have thatjourney mindset.
Other times it speaks pointingat other parts of the body and
(37:49):
saying you're supposed to bemore like them.
And Paul's clear, you're not.
You you can't say to this, tothe eye, the eye can't say to
the hand, I have no need of you.
Hand can't say to the foot, Ihave no need of you.
Well, that applies to us too.
Like we can't say about the partof the body that God's made us
to be as men, that that theyhave no need of us.
(38:10):
And so, yeah, so if I couldagain summarize that, I think
there are different kinds of menwho are wired differently.
That's one of the I think thisis one of the things I love
about you, Aaron.
You because I think you you bearthis, like you are a bohemoth of
a man, you are a a large manwith a deep voice and a
beautiful beard, you know, likeyou've got the strength, but you
(38:33):
also have this deep tendernessin you.
And and there are times where wewe've had had conversations
around our our staff table aboutwhat's happening in coaching,
and you're not giving awaypeople's confidential
information, but you're justsharing about you know a little
bit of your experience, andwe're kind of in awe of the
beautiful picture of Jesus thatyou are, of God that you are,
that you've got this masculinephysical strength with this
(38:53):
tender heart.
And um, and anyway, I'm going onin here, but so so men
listening, whether married,single, whatever, like and women
listening for you, like can youlay down cultural expectations
of what a real man looks like orwhat a real woman looks like,
and instead accept by virtue ofyour biology, you are a man, you
(39:14):
are a woman.
And in what what kind of man orwhat kind of woman is is God
designed you to be in the worldand let him bless and and name
you rather than than thecultural expectations.
Oh man, I just I just riffedthere.
I did a little mini sermon.
SPEAKER_01 (39:28):
I didn't mean to, but yeah, no, that that is that
is so good.
And it actually takes me back.
I want to say, I think, youknow, especially for uh, you
know, a guy who might, you know,really identify with that sort
sort of shame-driven passivity,or maybe even the shame-driven
sort of uh aggression andworking towards that, you know,
that Christ-centered strength.
Like, how do we move towardsthat?
(39:49):
And and one of the things comingup for me is even, you know, I
just got back from from DrewBoa's husband material retreat.
Yeah, there is this um sort ofthis experiential that we did
where guys are relating to themasculine.
Um, and so looking at picturesof different kinds of guys on
the floor and differentadjectives and different things,
(40:10):
and and I was sort of playingthis actor role.
And and so after all these guyskind of look each other in the
eye and you know, done all thiswork, I come in dressed like a
lumberjack, sort of like this umlike you're see, like my
strength, right?
Right?
Like, what is it?
You know, you're thinking of aman, boom, like here's a here's
a man.
I've got an axe, I've got woodunder my arms, you know, I'm
(40:31):
sharpening my axes, I'm sittingin the chair.
And they're all feeling, they'reall feeling that in light of you
know, their own story withouteven knowing my story.
And I think where I want to gowith this is just the sense that
whether you're uh sort of inthat shame, shame-driven
passivity or aggression, butyou're wanting to work towards
(40:52):
Christ's strength.
There is a there's thisacknowledgement of the wounds in
your own story and in thestories of like we all have a
story.
So as I look at you, Josh, andand you know what you bring as a
as a man, sure, you don't looklike me, you know.
Uh you're not six foot four.
I didn't make you to be six footfour, like all these different
(41:13):
things, right?
We have all of these uniquethings about each of us, and it
all kind of folds into ourstory, and there's this soft,
there's this compassion for likebeing able to look at somebody
else and like kind of havecuriosity.
What's their story?
You know, and I think that'spart of that like moving towards
(41:34):
that Christ-centered strength.
SPEAKER_02 (41:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:36):
And so anyway, I just think that could be
helpful, you know, for someonelistening, just to kind of, you
know, as you're as you'rewanting to move more and more
towards that Christ-centeredstrength, um, you know, to just
uh to have that curiosity, youknow, about about others, and
then even yourself, you know,why is that coming up for you
and you know, or or those typesof things.
(41:59):
So um anyway, just thesensitivity there, I think.
SPEAKER_00 (42:02):
Yeah.
Well, I think even naming whatyou did at the beginning about
the that how shame can come outin those two different ways,
that alone, I mean that that'llpreach like if either that
aggression or that passivity,like if you struggle with
passivity, you start withaggression, like take a look,
take a look under the hood atand how is shame operative, how
is that a driving force?
(42:23):
And I think what both of us aresaying is is really the the love
of Christ moving toward usreally can strengthen us to uh
to to be more at ease with whohe's made us to be and and more
more courageous to grow andaspire to be who he's made us to
be at the same time.
(42:43):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (42:45):
All right.
One uh I think one final placefor us.
I I want to talk a little bitabout community and why
community um as we're talkingabout men and and and you know
the masculine and and orrecovery, like why is male
community, Josh, so essentialfor men in recovery?
(43:06):
And how does isolation sabotagethat process?
SPEAKER_00 (43:12):
Wow.
Yeah, let's start a whole newpodcast.
Yeah, so first of all, if we'relooking at Christ as an as our
example of of man masculinity,uh he knew nothing of a kind of
manhood that was the you know20th and 19th, 20th, 21st
century uh American male oflike, you know, I can do it on
(43:36):
my own.
I don't, I don't need others.
That there's just like MiddleEastern culture just did not
know that.
You couldn't do it.
I mean, that the there was justno way to to be successful, as
opposed to the kind of theself-made man thing.
There's there's no paradigm forthat.
Um on top of that, think aboutrecovery.
If you dig into your recoverystory that you're talking about,
(43:56):
the this the story that led youto where you are, you you're
gonna uncover the wounds youexperienced in relationship with
others.
That's where our our mostsignificant wounds happen,
either in those relationships orbecause those relationships left
us alone.
SPEAKER_01 (44:11):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (44:12):
A father who left, a mother who left, a father who
died, a mother who died, um,somebody who, you know, just
didn't talk to us aboutwhatever, the wounds from peers,
the ridiculing words, the, youknow, the breakups, whatever,
that's where our wounds happen.
If our wounds happen inrelationship, we will not be
healed in isolation.
And so, with all respect tothose who say, you know, I've
(44:33):
got Jesus, he's all I need.
All right.
And yet Jesus did not put youhere to be alone.
Uh, you won't find that kind ofChristianity in scripture.
And so uh, if you're if you'rewounded in in relation from
relationship, you need to behealed in relationship.
That's some of the beauty ofwhat you're describing in on the
husband material retreat.
It's these guys coming togetherand getting vulnerable, getting
(44:56):
metaphorically, symbolicallynaked with each other to let
others see the truth.
And then do that in the companyof men, to be in community with
other men.
It it combats some of the woundswe've been talking about, these
ideas of like what a real manis, what a real man's supposed
to be like, what a real man'ssupposed people to do.
And suddenly you're around othermen who who on the outside look
like they've got all thosethings.
(45:18):
And yet when they open up, whenthey break themselves open,
you're like, oh my gosh, likeyou're like me.
You're you have the same woundsthat I do, or at least I can see
myself in your wounds.
And they see you, and suddenlythere's there's a there's a
reconnection point and acomfort, and then that is a
strengthening space.
(45:39):
Anyway, that's that's a that's aquick flyover, but what would
you add to that, Aaron?
SPEAKER_01 (45:44):
Yeah, I mean, uh two things.
I think, you know, I I can'thelp but think when when we're
created and you know, we'remade, and it says in Genesis
that we're made in his image.
Um well God exists in in eternalcommunity with with three God,
Father, the Son, and the Spirit.
(46:07):
And that's been put inside ofus.
So there is this uh verytangible uh at a kind of
creational level, this need forothers in our lives and to
experience community.
We're not meant to be alone, andand how anyone who's kind of
think entered into a healingjourney knows the power of being
(46:29):
able to share and to to see andto be seen by others in that
process um is such a gift.
And the other thing I would saytoo, Jesus had it again, he had
his 12 and he had his three.
Jesus wasn't just you know, itwasn't just Jesus going doing
all these things.
I mean, one of the first thingshe does um before he's doing
(46:52):
miracles is he's he's gathering,he's gathering some brothers to
really enter into that.
And I think that's just hittingme right now, even like, you
know, that wow, like before he'sreally doing miracles, he's he's
joining, he's linking arms withwith other guys.
And sure, there's this sort ofrabbi and student sort of
relationship, but still likeJesus knew, hey, if I'm gonna if
(47:14):
I'm gonna do this, I I need tobe around others, you know, not
only for my benefit, but fortheir benefit.
And that's the beauty ofcommunity, is like I both get to
uh give and receive incommunity.
Um, and I think Jesus modelsthat really well.
SPEAKER_00 (47:30):
Um Yeah, you see that in his life.
You don't you don't see him justteaching, just pouring out.
You see him like they, you know,waiting for food, um, telling
his disciples what he need,asking them to pray for him.
SPEAKER_02 (47:40):
Like, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:42):
So we live in a in an age that thinks, you know,
like, give me the information Ineed to get better, I'll read
the book, I'll listen to thepodcast.
Some of you right now listen tothis podcast, you're thinking,
like, this is all I need.
I have taught, I mean, I'm ateacher, I love to teach.
And when we do end-of-programsurveys, where I've been the
primary teacher, and we say, youknow, what was most meaningful
(48:04):
to you?
What was, you know, that kind ofstuff, I'm like, you know, in my
ego, like going, like, hey, youknow, I hope they like the
teaching, you know, whatever.
By and far, without a doubt,every, every time, the the thing
that rises to the to the top oflike what was most meaningful
about this group, what was mostmeaningful, what was most
powerful, what brought about themost change, it is the
(48:26):
brotherhood, it is thesisterhood, it is the community.
And it is a humbling thing to golike, wait, wait, I can prep
this teaching, I can bring thegoods, I can deliver the you
know, the poetry.
And uh, and I I think teachingis important, but it is way, way
overinflated as far as itsimportance to bring life change
in, especially in ProtestantChristianity.
(48:48):
We need the body of Christ.
Yeah, and and yeah, that's yeah.
So if you're listening and youare trying to do this solo, uh,
we get it, we get thetemptation.
Relationships are risky.
It's hard to let people know,especially about the these areas
of life that are that feel soshameful.
Um, but you need some brothers,you need some sisters, you need
(49:10):
people who know the truth aboutwhat's going on in the in the
darkest times for you.
SPEAKER_01 (49:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And those are really our matcarriers.
I think of the the paralytic onthe mat and you know, that's
brought before Jesus.
And he can't walk, so he'scarried on a mat.
Well, how did the mat get there?
It wasn't, you know, like anAladdin magic carpet.
It was he was carried by fourother men who were on the
(49:35):
corners of this mat to bring himto Jesus.
So he would have never gottenbefore Jesus if these guys
didn't come alongside him andhelp him.
And here's the thing, Josh,we're all on that mat at some
point in our lives.
Whether it's our own sexualityor our recovery or finances,
(49:57):
whatever it might be, there is atime in life where you will find
yourself on that mat.
And who's gonna carry you?
Who's gonna bring you beforeJesus, so to speak, so that we
can enter into his presence andhis healing and that embodiment.
And so I just think that what abeautiful picture of why
community is so important,because they come or they come,
(50:20):
you know, around you andalongside you in times in your
life where you can't do it onyour own.
You can't do the thing on yourown, and you need maybe a nudge
from somebody else, a word ofencouragement from somebody
else, a literally, you know,driving me to a meeting or
whatever it might be fromsomebody else, right?
(50:41):
And so, and we never know whenthat's gonna be.
We don't know what that's gonnalook like, but yeah, so mat
carriers.
SPEAKER_00 (50:47):
That's really good.
I think it's a fitting place toend and talk about the
intersection between manhood andrecovery, because I don't think
if you were to ask most menlistening or even women
listening, like, give us a goodimpression of a man, like what
you know, give us a picture of aman.
I don't think most of them wouldthink, well, remember that guy
on the mat?
Like, that's a good picture ofmanhood.
SPEAKER_02 (51:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (51:07):
But he was a man among men, and his friends
carried him on the mat.
And if there's part of him thatwas saying, like, oh no, no, no,
you know, it's look, obviouslyJesus is busy, it's crowded,
like, don't whatever.
They're like, Nope, nope,because you're worth it.
We see something in you, we wantyour full health to be restored.
(51:29):
And you got to imagine, like,how did he walk up out of there?
And what was his sense of hisparticipation in that community,
his gratitude for those peoplethat brought him, and now his
ability to participate in a newway in the realm of of being a
man among men.
And so, what's recovery for?
It's not to make us men, but itis to to grow us and it is to
(51:53):
help us become more fully themen we're designed to be, so
that we can more fullyparticipate in the life of the
church, the life of our home,life of our workplace, our
neighborhood, without shame,without fear, without what
whatever else keeps us fromliving that out.
That's beautiful, man.
I aspire to be the man on the onthe mat, or let yourself be the
(52:14):
man on the mat where you're theman on the mat.
SPEAKER_01 (52:16):
Yeah, right.
He was he was no less uh of aman to be before Jesus uh than
anyone who could walk, right?
And so what what beauty, whatbeauty there.
Man, what a what a greatconversation.
Thanks, Josh.
Uh well, hey friends.
Uh, I want to just mention thatour sacred by design retreat for
(52:38):
women is coming up in November.
And you can find out more aboutthat if you click the link in
the show notes.
But Josh, I'm just wondering ifyou would just kind of give us
one final word, even though thatkind of felt like a final word.
Would you just give us a finalword and pray us out?
SPEAKER_00 (52:55):
Yeah.
Well, just to piggyback that,like, so if we haven't scared
off all the women because wetalk so much about manhood,
like, brothers, like find awoman in your life who needs
some restoration and just lether know.
Take that risk for her.
Bring the good gift of you.
Let her know you heard thispodcast and that you want to
point her towards some womenthat can pour into her.
Final word, brothers, um, yougot nothing to prove.
(53:18):
You got nothing to prove to anyother man.
You have a father in heaven whomade you to be a man, to be his
son, to be a brother to otherbrothers.
Uh, you don't have to prove itto us, you don't have to prove
it to anybody else.
Um, but, but follow him intothis deeper work of recovery.
And if you're on that journey,stay on that journey.
It is worth it.
You are worth it.
(53:39):
And your father, who loves youso much, uh, wants you to keep
growing and healing and learningto love like he does.
So, Jesus, would you make thatso in our lives?
My life and Aaron's uh right atthe front.
Because we too need it, Lord.
We want to reflect you in ourmanhood.
Help us, Lord.
We pray it in Jesus' name.
Amen.
SPEAKER_01 (53:59):
Amen.
And until next time, keeppressing into the truth, keep
walking in grace, and keepbecoming whole.
Today's culture tells men to either tone it down
or turn it up, repress yourmasculinity or unleash it
without limits.
But for men in recovery, neitherpath works.
You've tried powering through,you've tried hiding, and both
(00:21):
have left you empty.
What if recovery isn't the endof your manhood, but the
beginning of the real thing?
What if the model for truemanhood isn't found in culture
but in a carpenter from Nazarethwho washed feet, wept with
friends, and laid down his life?
(00:42):
Jesus not only forgives us, healso shows us how to be a man.
A man who takes responsibility,seeks healing, and leads with
love.
Hey friends, welcome into theBecoming Whole podcast.
I'm Aaron Taggart, and I'mjoined today by Josh Glazer to
unpack how Christ-shapedmasculinity can turn shame into
(01:06):
strength, reframe sexuality, andhelp you become the man you were
created to be.
Josh, what is up, man?
SPEAKER_00 (01:18):
What is up?
Aaron, there's not time forthat.
There's not time.
We're recording a podcast.
I can't get into all that otherstuff.
Uh I'm no, I'm I'm eager to getinto this.
We you and I have been talking alittle bit for a while about the
intersection of manhood andrecovery for people.
And I'm I'm thinking about ourlisteners.
So whether you're married orsingle, male or female, I do
(01:40):
think that we're going to getinto today has implications for
all of us, but we we did want tospeak specifically to men who
are in recovery because there'ssome there's some tension spots,
some cruxes in the climb, somepitfalls, I think that men
specifically can get into asthey're trying to walk away from
unmanosexual behavior.
Uh both things that led theminto the problem to begin with,
(02:00):
but also things that keep themstuck, even while they're trying
to enter fully into recovery.
So I'm looking forward to theconversation that ensues.
SPEAKER_01 (02:10):
So, Josh, as we talk about this intersection of
manhood and recovery, where doesyour mind go first?
SPEAKER_00 (02:23):
Shame.
I think I think for a lot ofmen, both uh getting getting
going in recovery and eventhrough recovery, experience a
lot of shame in the area oftheir manhood.
Uh, and I think a lot ofconfusion also, that maybe that
would be the second thing.
So shame and confusion,confusion about like what I'm
(02:43):
what am I what am I shooting forhere?
Because I think that we're insuch a hyper-sexualized culture,
even for those of us who havegrown up in Christian circles, I
think there can still be a senseof like, if I'm if I'm and I'm
I'm not gonna stand by thesewords, but on some level, if I'm
feeling like I'm I'm trying totame a part of what makes me a
man, and maybe even sexualsobriety feels a little bit like
(03:08):
emasculating in some way, like,and some of the tasks of
recovery feel shaming oremasculating.
You know, I've got to talk aboutmy feelings, I've gotta say no
to my sexual desires, thingslike that.
So I don't think any of thosethings are true, but I do think
that shame, confusion gets intothe mix for a lot of guys when
(03:28):
it comes to to recovery.
Well, I what about you?
What anything close to that ordifferent than that?
SPEAKER_01 (03:34):
Disappointment, maybe, you know, and maybe
oneself, maybe that's probablyshame.
Uh no, but just uh thinkinglike, you know, uh, I had these
big dreams, or I was gonna dothis, or I was gonna do that,
and I'm falling short of that.
Yes.
This isn't the type of you know,husband I wanted to be.
This isn't the type of man likeI thought I I would be.
(03:56):
And I think we have like, andit's so important to be careful
there because I think you know,we can get into we could say
things that that maybe we don'ttruly believe like in our
hearts, but they're but there'sso much in the forefront of our
minds that we can start to agreewith those things and we can
start to really wear that shameuh as I am a you know
(04:21):
disappointment of a man or I amthis or you know, it's like that
lens is not not helpful, uh, andit's not it's not what the Lord
intended, right?
It's not what Jesus, um, Jesusdoesn't say in in the word, you
know, like I've made you knowbad men or I've made you know
that like his creation is good.
(04:44):
Uh and the and the enemy isthwarting that and wants to
thwart that and even internally,so that internal dialogue to
kind of turn ourselves inward,kind of into shame, to begin to
speak, you know, these thingsthat would be contrary to what
what what the Lord's actuallyintended.
SPEAKER_00 (05:00):
Yeah, but I I think it's I think you're so right to
identify it though.
I think it's a I think it's agood because if we don't if we
don't if we don't let peopleknow about the shame, if we
don't let people know about theconfusion, we don't let people
know about how we feeldisappointed or that we're the
disappointment, then it can justget buried into that that place
inside of us and just justperpetuate, you know, it just
(05:23):
can stay there.
So there's a difference betweenspeaking it out as as and and
kind of ruminating on it asthough it is true.
It's the you know, foundationaltruth who I am, and getting it
out as I'm wrestling with thesethoughts, I'm wrestling with
these feelings in my heart.
And I think I think you tapped atender spot for me because my
wife and I are coming up on 24years of marriage, and actually
(05:46):
we we will have been married 24when this podcast airs.
And I I I can tell you that thethe spaces in my life that have
felt most shamed as a man ormost shameful as a man have come
out in relationship with thiswoman who knows me better than
anybody else.
(06:06):
And so when she puts her fingeron or says something about, or
the look on her face revealsthat I have not been the man
that I desire to be.
Oh my gosh, like uh I wastelling her recently, and and
that I I get why I get whypeople get divorced.
And I don't mean that I'm on,you know, anywhere close to
(06:28):
getting divorced, but but the shthe shame and the pain of like I
am not what I always imagined Icould be for you.
And and and I know that in somemarriages that that's exactly
what the man hears from life.
You are not who I thought Imarried.
You're not the man I married,you're not who I thought you
were like, it's just brutal, so,so painful.
(06:49):
And I think that gets into, andmaybe we'll get into this later,
but why this topic is soimportant, because I think that
there are ways that if ourrecovery is kind of neutered, so
to speak, if we if we kind ofjust look at recovery through a
through a lens of it has nothingto do with manhood or womanhood,
I think we can miss some ofthese places in a man's heart
that specifically want forsomething in relationship to his
(07:11):
wife, or want for something inrelationship to other men, or
want for something as he standsand looks himself in the mirror,
that that are power eitherpowerfully helpful in in
launching him forward towardsrecovery, aspirational, or
they're they're crippling.
Does that make sense?
Am I am I making sense?
SPEAKER_01 (07:28):
Yeah, no, yeah, absolutely absolutely.
And yeah, I will we're we'regoing on 19 years, uh, my wife
and I.
And so, but and I resonate withso much of you know what what
you're sharing, you know, andand just the sense of how much
you know the the good, bad, andthe ugly, like she's she sees it
all.
She's experienced, you know, somuch of that, even in you know,
(07:50):
through my own recovery andhealing and and coming to kind
of yeah, changing some ways ofrelating, you know, that uh
weren't so great in the past,you know, that are very
different now.
Not always perfect, but still,you know, much a much different
place than that than they theywere.
(08:10):
And so it it does it is aconstant, almost never-ending
sort of it's part of thejourney, I think.
You know, and uh I love thatword journey because it's kind
of adventurous and you don'talways know uh how you're gonna
get to the end, but you kind ofhave this sense of, you know,
(08:31):
when we're watching a some likea movie, you sort of have this
idea of the ending, but it theall the things along the way,
and you're like, you know, onthe edge of your seat or gasping
because you know, one of thecharacters, you know, died, or
whatever it might be, right?
You don't know the end from thebeginning, but sort of with this
humility, and that maybe that'swhat's really coming up, is just
(08:54):
entering into this into thisthis cross section of manhood
and recovery with humility uh onthe journey, and to be able to
receive a word from you know mywife that before would have just
left me in a in a like don't Idon't want to go there, I don't
(09:17):
want to talk about these things,like and just a softness, you
know, there's a there's achange.
Um, and I think that maybe isyou know humility.
SPEAKER_00 (09:27):
Wait, so Aaron, I'm I'm thinking about some of the
guys listening.
First of all, shout out to menand women listening who are
single who are not married.
Yeah.
Because I think that you too canexperience some of that same,
whether it's you know, marriageis in the future for you, or or
you might be at a spot whereyou've lost a marriage or you're
still you want to be married andyou're waiting, or some of you
(09:50):
who've decided I'm not gonnamarry, I'm I'm devoting my life
to the Lord and serving him.
Praise God, uh, wherever youare.
So maybe for those folkslistening, where where does that
shame button get pushed for youmost?
Maybe it's in in just that veryfact that you're not married,
you know, even if it's by choicethat you're not married and and
yet the people around you arekind of like, well, so when are
(10:11):
you gonna get married?
And because shame, I think shamecan be so debilitating.
But Aaron, I think what I wantedto ask you was in what ways
would you say that as you're asyou're thinking back on the
things that have changed foryou, how how is your because
that we're talking about manhoodas it relates to recovery.
So in what ways has the shamefor you been connected to a
(10:31):
sense of your manhood?
And in what ways is thesoftening for you that you
described an outflow of yourmanhood or different, a
different kind of manhood thanyou thought, or I don't know,
what whatever you'd fill thatblank in, but like just overlay
what you just said, overlaymanhood on top of that, and
yeah, what's specific to you asas you feel like your own sense
of manhood with that?
SPEAKER_01 (10:53):
Man, that's that's deep.
Manhood um for me, it's reallygrowing in the sense of I am
becoming, and again, I go backto the journey um sort of
analogy, but I'm becomingsomething better.
(11:14):
Uh, there's sort of more,there's more to be done uh in a
way, and not in a way like ofstriving or I've got to check
this box or check that box, butI think it's growing an
awareness of maybe where I'vehad some weaknesses or
shortcomings and allowing theLord to come into those places
(11:37):
to make them not as tender, likeyou know, like something like a
word doesn't cut the same way umwhen there's been healing.
Uh, you know, a look doesn't cutthe same way when there's been
you know some growth.
Um, and so I think as I as Ithink about, yeah, right.
(11:58):
I know that's probably evenstirring up some things like for
people, man, the words and thelooks that that we might receive
from others, you know, and howdo we hold that and what does it
do to us?
But I think as I think about mymanhood in those sort of ways,
that there is this sense of likeI'm still I'm still becoming.
Like I'm not there, like it'sit's not complete.
(12:21):
I'm not complete in that in thatsense until you know, and until
I'm in eternity, this is anongoing process of getting
sharper and and growing in thesedifferent areas.
SPEAKER_00 (12:35):
So I so it's part of what I hear in that is I think
there's a a real kind ofrescuing word for people
listening for to begin thinking,like, let's let's forsake the
idea that manhood is is a pointof arrival, wherever that would
be.
You know, it's you you turned18, you turned 21, you got into
the military, you got married,you had your first kids, you got
(12:58):
the dream job, you whatever,whatever whatever it would be
that you kind of say that thosefalse finish lines.
And if we were to just kind offrame up, like manhood is
journey.
Womanhood is too.
It's a it's a parallel butdifferent journey.
But manhood is journey, andrather than a place of arrival,
(13:22):
it it is a a journey that we'reon.
So I mean, just riffing off whatyou're saying about journey and
what that could do to our ownsense of shame, reducing shame.
So when we realize there's arough edge, when we realize
there's a space where we'reletting someone down, we're
letting ourselves down, we'restill in disobedience, we're
still wrestling with our sin.
(13:44):
Instead of that being like the asentence over us of thou art not
a man, it's a uh no, I'm I'mstill on the journey, and that
is what men do.
It reminds me that I'm gonna Iwon't I was gonna it remind me
of a quote by C.S.
Lewis about just the mostimportant part part is that we
(14:04):
don't give up.
And so instead of kind ofthinking like, okay, a man is
not supposed to do these things,if we were to say, well, a man
is is supposed to keep gettingup when he fails to do those
things, you know.
So kind of holding intentionthat we haven't we have
something we're aspiring to asmen, and we are men.
We are men and we're on thejourney, and that's what men do.
(14:27):
Yeah, I think there can besomething helpful for people
more Christ-like in that.
SPEAKER_01 (14:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm reminded, you know, too,as we're talking about this in
particular, I've uh had theopportunity to do a lot of work
with forming men that JeffersonBethke and John Tyson have put
together.
And one of the things that theysay sort of over and over and
over again is that men aren'tborn, they're formed.
So there is this real sense offormation and and not just uh,
(14:57):
and again, like it's not justlike, oh, I've I'm now formed
into this and I'm done.
It's an ongoing sort offormation.
You know, we are constantlybeing formed uh and informed.
Uh the things that we take inaffect us in in different ways.
And so what are we doing to toallow those to to shape us in in
(15:20):
these in these positive ways?
SPEAKER_00 (15:22):
I like that.
SPEAKER_01 (15:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:24):
One one thing I I kind of gasped when you were
talking earlier, and I don'tknow if this this may be just a
comment that we don't need tospend a lot of time on, but it
struck me that the places ofweakness that we feel ashamed of
ashamed about can often be thoseplaces where we where our
masculine strength comes outsideways and hurts somebody.
So my wife says something andand it hits this this wound or
(15:47):
it exposes some area where I'mI'm not who I want to be and it
kicks up before the shame cancome out as anger.
And I can get either passiveaggressive or you know, that
brooding male silence in the inthe house or just overly
stressed with our kids, or orsome men may you know launch out
yelling at their their wives.
I mean, what whatever that orfor our audience, we go to porn
(16:11):
and it's this this space ofanger where we haven't we're not
dealing with what's reallyhurting, and we we run into porn
where we're in control.
We get to be in charge and weget to we're not gonna be hurt,
we're gonna, we're gonna hurt.
We're not gonna uh be uhoverpowered, we're gonna
overpower.
In contrast, that doing the workof opening those rough edges to
(16:34):
the Lord, acknowledging our sin,acknowledging our iniquity, and
acknowledging our inadequacy.
And in in time, actually makesus men who are stronger.
And instead of that strength,that that kind of boyish,
adolescent, you know, tempertantrum strength coming out
sideways, the way you describedit is you're actually able to
(16:55):
stand with a hard word, and itdoesn't cut you down the same
way.
There's an inner strength thatthat comes out of you because of
the work of recovery, the hardwork of walking in
sanctification with Jesus.
So that when your wife sayssomething about you that's
negative, you can be like, hmm,yep, that's you know what,
you're right.
I'm sorry.
That wasn't, you know, there'sjust a very different
(17:16):
demonstration of of strength.
It's a it's a response being andis responsible for what's
happening rather than reactingand trying to push that place to
feel so shameful away.
So way to go, man.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:30):
Thank you.
Josh, let me ask you anotherquestion here on um just some of
the work that uh you've donewith men.
And I know you've been doingthis for you've been doing this
for quite a while.
SPEAKER_00 (17:41):
Since I was a boy.
SPEAKER_01 (17:42):
Yeah, well, there you go.
When it comes to leading andloving as Christ intended, in in
relationship, where do you seemen most commonly
misunderstanding what truemanhood looks like?
SPEAKER_00 (17:57):
Yeah, great question.
Two things pop right away.
I think you've got two differentresponses.
They're not that they're oftenprobably expressed in one kind
of manner or another, but Ithink men can even flip-flop
back and forth between thesetwo.
The first is that men miss theloving part and just do the
leading part.
I'm supposed to lead, I'm incharge.
Um, my for example, for amarried man, my wife's supposed
(18:20):
to submit to me.
And the number of stories we'veheard over the years from
husbands and wives in recovery.
I mean, I'm I remember sharingat a parenting conference years
ago, and I was talking aboutChrist-like love and how
husband, wife or husband'ssupposed to love his wife this
way.
And this wife, God bless her,comes up to me at the end.
She waits for a she waits for anopening when there's nobody else
(18:40):
near.
And then she just kind of stepsup and quietly says what you
were just talking about, how ahusband is supposed to love his
wife.
I, I, my husband does not loveme anywhere close to that.
She got connected to some of thewomen on our team and ends up
there's just all sorts ofabusive, manipulative, coercive
stuff in the name of this man isthe leader of the home.
(19:02):
And uh it was it's awful.
And that kind of stuff happens.
It happens between pastors andparishioners, it happens between
husbands and wives.
So that the leading without loveis the one.
And if if we bear the image ofGod uniquely in our manhood, the
image that gives of what God islike, and and I think the image
that those men have of what Godis like is just cruel and it's
(19:25):
and it is not scriptural.
It's it's it's gross.
So if you are a man and that'skind of where you are, I want to
just, as a word of compassion toyou, say your image of God is
making you into somebody that heis not and he never intended you
to be.
And he wants you to realize andknow him and the loving leader
that he is over you.
(19:47):
On the other side is men who,when they think about love, all
they all they've got is kind ofa, and I think this is more and
more real in our 21st century,but a disempowered, kind of uh
watery, just go with whateverkind of love that says that
(20:09):
doesn't have a backbone thatcan't stand up to that which is
wrong.
And then so a man in a marriagerelationship in that regard
might be, you know, likewhatever, whatever you say,
dear.
I'll I'll just be quiet.
I'll, you know, men have hurtothers.
I don't want to be a man whohurts others.
Uh men have been abusive,they've used their power to
control.
I don't want to be one of thoseguys.
And so they just kind ofacquiesce all their God-given
(20:34):
strength and uh and leadershipand kind of step aside.
And I think that too is amistake.
In some ways, a less harmfulmistake, but but also a harmful
mistake.
Because leadership and and andmore broadly, whether you you're
you have a specific area ofleadership or not, if you're a
(20:54):
man and you're acquiescing yourmanhood, you you you are leaving
open to those around you,whether it's family or friends
or just the culture around you,you are leaving them open to
something that you were meant tocarry, you were meant to bear,
you were meant to take that hit.
The longer I've been a leader,the longer I've been a husband,
the more I'm like, oh my gosh,like I don't understand those
(21:15):
who aspire to leadership.
I mean, I kind of do.
I think they're a differentfabric than me, and I admire
them greatly, but like, but someof the, some of the the risk,
some of the weight, some of theburden of leadership is uh is it
makes sense why leadership ismeant to be something that
servants do.
Because leaders do take hitsthat others don't take and they
(21:37):
bear burdens that others don'ttake, uh, don't don't bear.
Um and then more broadly formen, I think that there's
there's correlation.
And then I'm trying to make adistinction.
I don't think that men areautomatically leaders because
they're men.
I don't think that's I know thatsome people believe that.
I I don't I don't find that inscripture.
I think that there are certainroles that that men are called
to by God.
Um, but not not because they'remore intelligent, not because
(22:00):
they're more physically fit.
If anything, it's just, yep, I'mgonna put men, you you serve in
this way, but maybe that's awhole nother conversation.
I'm not sure we want to getinto.
But so this so that was a longanswer.
But the to to sum up, on the oneside, using strength to and and
kind of a uh machismo leadershipwithout love, the other is kind
of a quote unquote love thatactually doesn't have a backbone
(22:22):
to love like Christ loves.
So you hear all that.
What what pops in that for you?
What would you agree to say?
SPEAKER_01 (22:30):
Yeah, and I wanted to go back to to like the first
thing I thought, you know, is uhwell done, kind of I think
articulating the two sides ofthat.
Um, I reson like resonate withboth of those sides at some
point, and um it's very helpfuluh to hear it put that way.
But I when you were talkingabout the first one, kind of
that sort of um almost like amisuse of the power without the
(22:54):
love, right?
Like being just going right forthe leading, like I'm gonna lead
with sort of a lack ofgentleness or love, or and and
the first thing that popped inmy head is you know, it's it if
we say God is and we pause, likewhat is one of the first words
that come to mind?
And for me, it was God is love,yeah.
And I'm like, okay, well, shoot,like if God is love, then how am
(23:19):
I showing up as that in myrelationship as I lead my life?
If God is love, how am I leadingin love?
Um, and letting that sort offrame that.
And I think, man, what a that uhI I that could be a game
changer, you know, because thewe want to lead and we want to
(23:44):
do well, you know, and and andwhatever that means, you know,
we everything's sort of measuredin success, I feel like, you
know, and so like how successfulam I at leading or doing these
things?
And that's where a lot of theshame comes in.
Like, man, I've I've gone toporn, I'm I'm acting out, I'm
doing these things.
And so, man, I'm not I'm notleading well.
(24:07):
And and and and then I don'tlove well because I'm like my
shame and it comes out sideways,and now I'm angry.
And and so I I think, man,there's so many things I think
that get into that.
But if we like just again, thatGod is love and letting that
sort of be the okay.
So here, like now sit in that.
(24:27):
Okay, if God is love, what doesthat invoke for you as far as
you how do you want to lead ifyou're sitting in like God is
love?
SPEAKER_00 (24:36):
Yeah, yeah.
And uh to be just vulnerable fora minute, I think out of those
two poles of mistakes that menmake and and in that regard, men
make, I probably err on this onthe side of the second, where
I'm more likely to be the guywho says, you know, I know men
have hurt.
I mean, that was my experiencegrowing up.
And it wasn't a full story, butit was a story that that really
(24:58):
took hold in my life.
I saw men hurting women, uh,emotionally, physically, and I
was I was determined not to bethat kind of man.
But I but it didn't leave mewith much of a, well, then what
kind of man am I supposed to be?
Um, what what is what does mymanhood look like then?
And and there was fear that gotin there for me and all those
(25:20):
things.
I think a corrective, a helpfulcorrective for both is defining,
well, what does it mean that Godis love?
What is love?
And one of my favoritedefinitions, I I I haven't found
one I like more.
So if somebody's listening andthey're like, oh, I got one you
might like more, you know, shootus an email, we'd like to hear
it.
But is in general, and I'mgonna, there are different ways
to articulate this, but ingeneral, love is giving of a
(25:41):
good gift, giving all the goodyou have for the good of
another.
And it's such a helpful thing aswe think about sexual addiction
recovery or growing in sexualintegrity, because if I am meant
to give the good of me forsomeone else's good, it's me
giving of myself for theirnumber one, I have to believe
(26:02):
that I am a good gift.
And and Caravoy Tivo writesabout this like you have to
recognize that you that you thatyou have good gifts and you are
a good gift to give.
And so is manhood a gift tobring to the equation or not?
Is it a gift to those around?
And I don't mean like a, youknow, I'm a gift, worship, you
know, I mean, but but ratherlike has God given me something
(26:24):
good in my body as a man?
Is there something good aboutthe the the my deep voice, about
my muscles, about my stature,about the way my brain works,
about the ways that I'mdifferent from a woman?
Is there something, is there agood gift in the area of my
sexuality, my sexual desire?
It doesn't mean that all thatI'm perfect.
It doesn't mean that everythingabout me doesn't need to, I
(26:46):
don't need you know, refinementor sanctification, but is there
good to give there?
And if I don't know what thatgood is, and I think for our
audience, like, what is the goodof your sexuality?
What is the good of your sexualdesire?
And if you don't know that it isgood, then I would argue if
you're married, your your sexlife with your wife is going to
be severely crippled.
(27:06):
Like you have to, you have toget to, and this is a topic for
another podcast, but like, whyis your sexuality as a man as a
man a gift to your wife?
Why is your body, how is yourbody a gift to her?
So for love to be love, you haveto know the gift that you're
giving is a good gift.
How do you know that?
Well, because what scriptureteaches we love because God
first loved us.
(27:28):
And so we you have to like sitin his presence, like find out,
like how, like, Lord, you loveme?
You love me today, like this.
You love my body, you love my soand then and the second half of
that is given for the good ofanother.
And so, as opposed to theleadership model, which is just
lead, well, what's for what towhat end?
To what for the good of theother, not for your good, not
(27:51):
for as you said, Aaron, not forsuccess, not for you know, being
able to have a a great Christmascard that shows all my kids, you
know, dressed in the sameclothes as me.
And and I don't mean that youknow if you do that, great,
like, but I'm just saying, like,what what's the end?
Is it outward appearance or isit really no for the good of
another person?
Which in the end really is sofreeing because it opens up so
(28:14):
many doors.
Like, if anyway, that yeah, likeit's maybe a little beyond the
scope of what we're talkingabout, but can can we form our
lives?
Can and can our own sexualintegrity journey, our own
growth as men, be around theidea of becoming those who
recognize the good gift we areand that by God's grace and
learn to give it away for thegood of another.
SPEAKER_01 (28:36):
Yeah, I'm thinking about thinking about something I
learned in in my own journeythat that's really hitting right
now, and that was getting tothis place of realizing that I
will never be able to meet allof my wife's needs.
SPEAKER_00 (28:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:52):
And that's not, I wasn't intended to do that.
SPEAKER_00 (28:55):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (28:56):
Um I can be used by God to minister to her needs.
And there was honestly somethingthat happened in me when I first
heard that, you know, that like,oh, that I mean, that makes a
lot of sense, you know, and allthese pressures I put on myself
to to be like the perfect leaderor the perfect, you know, loving
(29:20):
in the perfect ways.
And man, I'm falling short, I'mfalling short, I'm falling
short.
Like, whoa, like what freedom toknow that I I'm not responsible
to meet her all of her needs,but the Lord can use me to
minister to them.
SPEAKER_00 (29:34):
That's a great distinction.
SPEAKER_01 (29:35):
Yeah, and so I think that's just a beautiful way
again of like bringing in bothsort of the leading and and the
loving, because there's thatdesires in uh in in that in both
of those.
And I also get this picture ofNehemiah, um, in Nehemiah 4,
when he's I think it's four, um,he's he's working to rebuild the
(29:55):
wall, and there's a point wherelike like just I see these
families kind of.
All around, like in like in mymind as I'm reading this, and
and there's a sense of likethey're building the wall, but
they're also sort of defendingand leading like the fan.
So I I think of the phrase likebuild and defend.
Like in one hand, you know, youyou he kind of had a sword like
(30:16):
for defending, and the otherhand he had a trowel, uh, as
he's maybe sort of doing some ofthis masonry work to re rebuild
the wall.
And so this kind of building anddefending, and simultaneously
kind of being able to hold spacefor both of those things in our
manhood, in our leadership, inthe ways that we that we love.
SPEAKER_00 (30:36):
That's beautiful.
I love that.
And I love the I love that I'mI'm not meant to meet all her
needs, but I I can as herhusband.
And for those singles listening,I can, in the relationship with
other people around me, I canhelp minister to their needs.
That's a I've never heard thatdistinction before.
I like that a lot.
That is really freeing.
(30:57):
It's and it also goes with thejourney idea of like I was
saying the more I grow, the moreI'm connected to others, maybe
the more I can minister.
And maybe even the more I getclear about like, I'm not really
good about ministering in thisway.
Let me let me resource you orlet me encourage you like
elsewhere.
That's really good, Aaron.
I like that a lot.
Yeah, thanks.
SPEAKER_01 (31:17):
And it wasn't for me, so that but yeah, I forget
where I heard that, but it wasuh it's been a just a sweet
thing, and and I, you know, Itry to keep that in the
forefront.
And I use that in coaching too.
I share that with guys all thetime that you know that it's
about you know the being sort ofallowing God to use them to
minister uh and and not so muchto to meet.
(31:40):
So um, and I'm sure we couldkeep talking about that for a
while.
But I I would love to uh andthen this has kind of come up a
little bit, Josh, uh, already,but I think there's uh I think
there's a little bit more thatwe can say on this, and that is
sort of this idea of what mightchange for a guy in recovery, uh
a man in recovery, if he shiftsfrom shame-driven passivity or
(32:03):
aggression towardChrist-centered strength.
SPEAKER_00 (32:09):
Yeah, maybe maybe we need to s to even start by what
is the difference?
Like what is what is Christ,what is Christ's strength and
what is Christ-centeredstrength.
And I'm I want to just keep thatback to you.
Like, what comes to mind for youwhen you think about if a man is
supposed to aspire to or operatefrom a place of Christ-centered
strength, and how how do youdefine that, or what comes to
(32:31):
mind for you when you thinkabout that?
SPEAKER_01 (32:33):
Well, I mean, immediately I get this picture
of Jesus kind of standing therewith his hands open, sort of in
a in this posture that thatcould either be to give or to
receive.
And I think um Yeah, I don'tknow.
(32:58):
I I I come back to that humilityand and and just humbling
oneself, humbling myself to knowthat what I've maybe done
doesn't def it's it's not a it'snot a sentence for my future.
It doesn't mean I'm gonna showup in those same ways.
Like so there's a I can receivesomething better.
(33:21):
I can um I don't know if I'm Idon't know if I'm helping here.
SPEAKER_00 (33:26):
Well, no, I think I wait, can I jump in?
Then you I just bought myself alittle bit of time to think as
you were talking.
SPEAKER_01 (33:32):
Yeah, no, no, no, it's good.
SPEAKER_00 (33:34):
I think one one of the places where I experienced
the most shame as a man over theyears, both in recovery, as a
leader, as a father, as ahusband, as a friend, or when I
rub up against places that Ihave received messages or heard
things about what a man issupposed to be, and I don't feel
I measure up.
(33:55):
Whether it's I think I'msupposed to be stronger
physically, more decisive, morecourageous, able to do more
things around the house, have ahave a sex drive that's
different than mine, have adifferent level of confidence.
Uh, and that happens a lot incomparison to other men, whether
it's explicit from other mensaying, you know, this is what
(34:15):
real men are like, you know, andthey fill in the blank.
Um, I know I I'm you and I areboth fans of John Eldridge, but
I know when his book Wild atHeart came out, there were some,
a lot of men who read it andsaid, this whole like get out in
nature thing kind of vibe isnot, does not describe me.
Like I don't feel that call towarrior, you know, like as
(34:36):
Eldridge was talking about it.
And I think uh there are waysthat I did, ways that I didn't.
I I kind of took itmetaphorically and symbolically
more than literally from him,but but I know that that so for
a lot of men, like whether heand I don't think Eldridge meant
it this way, but I think somemen took that as kind of like, I
don't, I don't fit this mold ofmanhood.
So I think one of the places ofoperating from Christ-like
(34:59):
strength is recognizing thatthat manhood is something
primarily bestowed by God andthat there are different kinds
of men.
Just like when Paul writes aboutdifferent your they're different
members of the body, and thispart of the body can't say to
another part of the body, I haveno need of you.
If you're laying up those likelists of of of gifts, you know,
there's there's apostle.
(35:20):
Oh, that's that's manly, youknow, that's there's leadership,
like that's manly, like, youknow, there's uh there's
teacher, maybe that, you know,like there's mercy.
Yeah.
You know, is that like there'sthere's shepherding?
Is that, you know, like I mean,so even looking at that, like,
okay, hold on, hold on.
If that's a list of of qualitiesthat both men and women can
have, gifts that either men orwomen can have, then what does
(35:41):
it mean?
It will it it means if nothingelse, there are different kinds
of men.
There are different kinds ofwomen.
I will I'll like one of thehardest things for me as a man,
like when I first got married,to discover that my wife was
stronger in the area of ofleadership than I was.
And I I would tell you, like,she she I think she has the gift
of leadership, and I've seen itin action, and it is amazing to
(36:02):
me.
It's powerful.
And initially it felt reallyemasculating.
I was like, and I remember oneday, I it was actually not long
after I'd become executivedirector here too, and I was
seeing some failures there too.
I remember falling down in myoffice and I was like, what are
you doing, Lord?
Are you are you just toying?
Are you playing with me?
Are you trying to shame me?
Like, why are you putting me inthese positions where I like my
(36:24):
my lack of leadership ability,my lack of leadership gifting is
getting shunted like this?
And I was thinking especiallyabout my marriage.
I was like, Lord, I I don'tknow, like this just doesn't, it
feels emasculating because I'dheard over and over again, like,
you know, the man's theleadership, the leader in the
home.
And there's scriptural basis forthat.
But what does a man do thenwho's married to somebody who's
got a stronger gift ofleadership than he does?
And that was my situation.
(36:44):
The Lord spoke to me.
And it was one of those momentswhere I knew he spoke because it
just lined up with whatscripture taught, but it was
also not something I expected.
What he said was, and it wasit'll make me tear up if I think
too much about it, but he said,um, I wouldn't entrust her to
anybody else.
And it came with just this deepsense of like, I want her to
(37:07):
have your mercy.
I want her to have yourshepherding, your tenderness.
And so I'm like, okay, how do Ilead in our home?
Like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna bringit.
I'm gonna bring who I am, andI'm gonna, I'm gonna give that
good gift as a gift for hergood, including bring it to her
leadership gifting, that shemight grow to be stronger in
that way.
(37:28):
And I've done not done thatperfectly over the years, but I
I hope that lines up.
So, so coming back to whatyou're saying and like a whole
or law question, like, I thinkwhere shame tells us you're not
enough, I think oftentimes it'sthe accuser pointing at
something that we're where we'refailing and God intends us to
grow.
So we need to be have thatjourney mindset.
Other times it speaks pointingat other parts of the body and
(37:49):
saying you're supposed to bemore like them.
And Paul's clear, you're not.
You you can't say to this, tothe eye, the eye can't say to
the hand, I have no need of you.
Hand can't say to the foot, Ihave no need of you.
Well, that applies to us too.
Like we can't say about the partof the body that God's made us
to be as men, that that theyhave no need of us.
(38:10):
And so, yeah, so if I couldagain summarize that, I think
there are different kinds of menwho are wired differently.
That's one of the I think thisis one of the things I love
about you, Aaron.
You because I think you you bearthis, like you are a bohemoth of
a man, you are a a large manwith a deep voice and a
beautiful beard, you know, likeyou've got the strength, but you
(38:33):
also have this deep tendernessin you.
And and there are times where wewe've had had conversations
around our our staff table aboutwhat's happening in coaching,
and you're not giving awaypeople's confidential
information, but you're justsharing about you know a little
bit of your experience, andwe're kind of in awe of the
beautiful picture of Jesus thatyou are, of God that you are,
that you've got this masculinephysical strength with this
(38:53):
tender heart.
And um, and anyway, I'm going onin here, but so so men
listening, whether married,single, whatever, like and women
listening for you, like can youlay down cultural expectations
of what a real man looks like orwhat a real woman looks like,
and instead accept by virtue ofyour biology, you are a man, you
(39:14):
are a woman.
And in what what kind of man orwhat kind of woman is is God
designed you to be in the worldand let him bless and and name
you rather than than thecultural expectations.
Oh man, I just I just riffedthere.
I did a little mini sermon.
SPEAKER_01 (39:28):
I didn't mean to, but yeah, no, that that is that
is so good.
And it actually takes me back.
I want to say, I think, youknow, especially for uh, you
know, a guy who might, you know,really identify with that sort
sort of shame-driven passivity,or maybe even the shame-driven
sort of uh aggression andworking towards that, you know,
that Christ-centered strength.
Like, how do we move towardsthat?
(39:49):
And and one of the things comingup for me is even, you know, I
just got back from from DrewBoa's husband material retreat.
Yeah, there is this um sort ofthis experiential that we did
where guys are relating to themasculine.
Um, and so looking at picturesof different kinds of guys on
the floor and differentadjectives and different things,
(40:10):
and and I was sort of playingthis actor role.
And and so after all these guyskind of look each other in the
eye and you know, done all thiswork, I come in dressed like a
lumberjack, sort of like this umlike you're see, like my
strength, right?
Right?
Like, what is it?
You know, you're thinking of aman, boom, like here's a here's
a man.
I've got an axe, I've got woodunder my arms, you know, I'm
(40:31):
sharpening my axes, I'm sittingin the chair.
And they're all feeling, they'reall feeling that in light of you
know, their own story withouteven knowing my story.
And I think where I want to gowith this is just the sense that
whether you're uh sort of inthat shame, shame-driven
passivity or aggression, butyou're wanting to work towards
(40:52):
Christ's strength.
There is a there's thisacknowledgement of the wounds in
your own story and in thestories of like we all have a
story.
So as I look at you, Josh, andand you know what you bring as a
as a man, sure, you don't looklike me, you know.
Uh you're not six foot four.
I didn't make you to be six footfour, like all these different
(41:13):
things, right?
We have all of these uniquethings about each of us, and it
all kind of folds into ourstory, and there's this soft,
there's this compassion for likebeing able to look at somebody
else and like kind of havecuriosity.
What's their story?
You know, and I think that'spart of that like moving towards
(41:34):
that Christ-centered strength.
SPEAKER_02 (41:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:36):
And so anyway, I just think that could be
helpful, you know, for someonelistening, just to kind of, you
know, as you're as you'rewanting to move more and more
towards that Christ-centeredstrength, um, you know, to just
uh to have that curiosity, youknow, about about others, and
then even yourself, you know,why is that coming up for you
and you know, or or those typesof things.
(41:59):
So um anyway, just thesensitivity there, I think.
SPEAKER_00 (42:02):
Yeah.
Well, I think even naming whatyou did at the beginning about
the that how shame can come outin those two different ways,
that alone, I mean that that'llpreach like if either that
aggression or that passivity,like if you struggle with
passivity, you start withaggression, like take a look,
take a look under the hood atand how is shame operative, how
is that a driving force?
(42:23):
And I think what both of us aresaying is is really the the love
of Christ moving toward usreally can strengthen us to uh
to to be more at ease with whohe's made us to be and and more
more courageous to grow andaspire to be who he's made us to
be at the same time.
(42:43):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (42:45):
All right.
One uh I think one final placefor us.
I I want to talk a little bitabout community and why
community um as we're talkingabout men and and and you know
the masculine and and orrecovery, like why is male
community, Josh, so essentialfor men in recovery?
(43:06):
And how does isolation sabotagethat process?
SPEAKER_00 (43:12):
Wow.
Yeah, let's start a whole newpodcast.
Yeah, so first of all, if we'relooking at Christ as an as our
example of of man masculinity,uh he knew nothing of a kind of
manhood that was the you know20th and 19th, 20th, 21st
century uh American male oflike, you know, I can do it on
(43:36):
my own.
I don't, I don't need others.
That there's just like MiddleEastern culture just did not
know that.
You couldn't do it.
I mean, that the there was justno way to to be successful, as
opposed to the kind of theself-made man thing.
There's there's no paradigm forthat.
Um on top of that, think aboutrecovery.
If you dig into your recoverystory that you're talking about,
(43:56):
the this the story that led youto where you are, you you're
gonna uncover the wounds youexperienced in relationship with
others.
That's where our our mostsignificant wounds happen,
either in those relationships orbecause those relationships left
us alone.
SPEAKER_01 (44:11):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (44:12):
A father who left, a mother who left, a father who
died, a mother who died, um,somebody who, you know, just
didn't talk to us aboutwhatever, the wounds from peers,
the ridiculing words, the, youknow, the breakups, whatever,
that's where our wounds happen.
If our wounds happen inrelationship, we will not be
healed in isolation.
And so, with all respect tothose who say, you know, I've
(44:33):
got Jesus, he's all I need.
All right.
And yet Jesus did not put youhere to be alone.
Uh, you won't find that kind ofChristianity in scripture.
And so uh, if you're if you'rewounded in in relation from
relationship, you need to behealed in relationship.
That's some of the beauty ofwhat you're describing in on the
husband material retreat.
It's these guys coming togetherand getting vulnerable, getting
(44:56):
metaphorically, symbolicallynaked with each other to let
others see the truth.
And then do that in the companyof men, to be in community with
other men.
It it combats some of the woundswe've been talking about, these
ideas of like what a real manis, what a real man's supposed
to be like, what a real man'ssupposed people to do.
And suddenly you're around othermen who who on the outside look
like they've got all thosethings.
(45:18):
And yet when they open up, whenthey break themselves open,
you're like, oh my gosh, likeyou're like me.
You're you have the same woundsthat I do, or at least I can see
myself in your wounds.
And they see you, and suddenlythere's there's a there's a
reconnection point and acomfort, and then that is a
strengthening space.
(45:39):
Anyway, that's that's a that's aquick flyover, but what would
you add to that, Aaron?
SPEAKER_01 (45:44):
Yeah, I mean, uh two things.
I think, you know, I I can'thelp but think when when we're
created and you know, we'remade, and it says in Genesis
that we're made in his image.
Um well God exists in in eternalcommunity with with three God,
Father, the Son, and the Spirit.
(46:07):
And that's been put inside ofus.
So there is this uh verytangible uh at a kind of
creational level, this need forothers in our lives and to
experience community.
We're not meant to be alone, andand how anyone who's kind of
think entered into a healingjourney knows the power of being
(46:29):
able to share and to to see andto be seen by others in that
process um is such a gift.
And the other thing I would saytoo, Jesus had it again, he had
his 12 and he had his three.
Jesus wasn't just you know, itwasn't just Jesus going doing
all these things.
I mean, one of the first thingshe does um before he's doing
(46:52):
miracles is he's he's gathering,he's gathering some brothers to
really enter into that.
And I think that's just hittingme right now, even like, you
know, that wow, like before he'sreally doing miracles, he's he's
joining, he's linking arms withwith other guys.
And sure, there's this sort ofrabbi and student sort of
relationship, but still likeJesus knew, hey, if I'm gonna if
(47:14):
I'm gonna do this, I I need tobe around others, you know, not
only for my benefit, but fortheir benefit.
And that's the beauty ofcommunity, is like I both get to
uh give and receive incommunity.
Um, and I think Jesus modelsthat really well.
SPEAKER_00 (47:30):
Um Yeah, you see that in his life.
You don't you don't see him justteaching, just pouring out.
You see him like they, you know,waiting for food, um, telling
his disciples what he need,asking them to pray for him.
SPEAKER_02 (47:40):
Like, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:42):
So we live in a in an age that thinks, you know,
like, give me the information Ineed to get better, I'll read
the book, I'll listen to thepodcast.
Some of you right now listen tothis podcast, you're thinking,
like, this is all I need.
I have taught, I mean, I'm ateacher, I love to teach.
And when we do end-of-programsurveys, where I've been the
primary teacher, and we say, youknow, what was most meaningful
(48:04):
to you?
What was, you know, that kind ofstuff, I'm like, you know, in my
ego, like going, like, hey, youknow, I hope they like the
teaching, you know, whatever.
By and far, without a doubt,every, every time, the the thing
that rises to the to the top oflike what was most meaningful
about this group, what was mostmeaningful, what was most
powerful, what brought about themost change, it is the
(48:26):
brotherhood, it is thesisterhood, it is the community.
And it is a humbling thing to golike, wait, wait, I can prep
this teaching, I can bring thegoods, I can deliver the you
know, the poetry.
And uh, and I I think teachingis important, but it is way, way
overinflated as far as itsimportance to bring life change
in, especially in ProtestantChristianity.
(48:48):
We need the body of Christ.
Yeah, and and yeah, that's yeah.
So if you're listening and youare trying to do this solo, uh,
we get it, we get thetemptation.
Relationships are risky.
It's hard to let people know,especially about the these areas
of life that are that feel soshameful.
Um, but you need some brothers,you need some sisters, you need
(49:10):
people who know the truth aboutwhat's going on in the in the
darkest times for you.
SPEAKER_01 (49:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And those are really our matcarriers.
I think of the the paralytic onthe mat and you know, that's
brought before Jesus.
And he can't walk, so he'scarried on a mat.
Well, how did the mat get there?
It wasn't, you know, like anAladdin magic carpet.
It was he was carried by fourother men who were on the
(49:35):
corners of this mat to bring himto Jesus.
So he would have never gottenbefore Jesus if these guys
didn't come alongside him andhelp him.
And here's the thing, Josh,we're all on that mat at some
point in our lives.
Whether it's our own sexualityor our recovery or finances,
(49:57):
whatever it might be, there is atime in life where you will find
yourself on that mat.
And who's gonna carry you?
Who's gonna bring you beforeJesus, so to speak, so that we
can enter into his presence andhis healing and that embodiment.
And so I just think that what abeautiful picture of why
community is so important,because they come or they come,
(50:20):
you know, around you andalongside you in times in your
life where you can't do it onyour own.
You can't do the thing on yourown, and you need maybe a nudge
from somebody else, a word ofencouragement from somebody
else, a literally, you know,driving me to a meeting or
whatever it might be fromsomebody else, right?
(50:41):
And so, and we never know whenthat's gonna be.
We don't know what that's gonnalook like, but yeah, so mat
carriers.
SPEAKER_00 (50:47):
That's really good.
I think it's a fitting place toend and talk about the
intersection between manhood andrecovery, because I don't think
if you were to ask most menlistening or even women
listening, like, give us a goodimpression of a man, like what
you know, give us a picture of aman.
I don't think most of them wouldthink, well, remember that guy
on the mat?
Like, that's a good picture ofmanhood.
SPEAKER_02 (51:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (51:07):
But he was a man among men, and his friends
carried him on the mat.
And if there's part of him thatwas saying, like, oh no, no, no,
you know, it's look, obviouslyJesus is busy, it's crowded,
like, don't whatever.
They're like, Nope, nope,because you're worth it.
We see something in you, we wantyour full health to be restored.
(51:29):
And you got to imagine, like,how did he walk up out of there?
And what was his sense of hisparticipation in that community,
his gratitude for those peoplethat brought him, and now his
ability to participate in a newway in the realm of of being a
man among men.
And so, what's recovery for?
It's not to make us men, but itis to to grow us and it is to
(51:53):
help us become more fully themen we're designed to be, so
that we can more fullyparticipate in the life of the
church, the life of our home,life of our workplace, our
neighborhood, without shame,without fear, without what
whatever else keeps us fromliving that out.
That's beautiful, man.
I aspire to be the man on the onthe mat, or let yourself be the
(52:14):
man on the mat where you're theman on the mat.
SPEAKER_01 (52:16):
Yeah, right.
He was he was no less uh of aman to be before Jesus uh than
anyone who could walk, right?
And so what what beauty, whatbeauty there.
Man, what a what a greatconversation.
Thanks, Josh.
Uh well, hey friends.
Uh, I want to just mention thatour sacred by design retreat for
(52:38):
women is coming up in November.
And you can find out more aboutthat if you click the link in
the show notes.
But Josh, I'm just wondering ifyou would just kind of give us
one final word, even though thatkind of felt like a final word.
Would you just give us a finalword and pray us out?
SPEAKER_00 (52:55):
Yeah.
Well, just to piggyback that,like, so if we haven't scared
off all the women because wetalk so much about manhood,
like, brothers, like find awoman in your life who needs
some restoration and just lether know.
Take that risk for her.
Bring the good gift of you.
Let her know you heard thispodcast and that you want to
point her towards some womenthat can pour into her.
Final word, brothers, um, yougot nothing to prove.
(53:18):
You got nothing to prove to anyother man.
You have a father in heaven whomade you to be a man, to be his
son, to be a brother to otherbrothers.
Uh, you don't have to prove itto us, you don't have to prove
it to anybody else.
Um, but, but follow him intothis deeper work of recovery.
And if you're on that journey,stay on that journey.
It is worth it.
You are worth it.
(53:39):
And your father, who loves youso much, uh, wants you to keep
growing and healing and learningto love like he does.
So, Jesus, would you make thatso in our lives?
My life and Aaron's uh right atthe front.
Because we too need it, Lord.
We want to reflect you in ourmanhood.
Help us, Lord.
We pray it in Jesus' name.
Amen.
SPEAKER_01 (53:59):
Amen.
And until next time, keeppressing into the truth, keep
walking in grace, and keepbecoming whole.
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