July 22, 2025 • 52 mins
What if the solution to overcoming pornography addiction isn't found in behavior modification but in healing your heart? In this episode, Sathiya Sam shares how addressing the root causes of unwanted sexual behavior leads to genuine freedom that behavior-focused approaches simply can't deliver.
Sathiya, the architect behind Deep Clean—a program that has helped thousands of men overcome pornography addiction—reveals his personal 15-year battle with porn that began at age 11. His journey from struggle to freedom led him to develop an approach combining biblical wisdom with scientific research that targets what lies beneath the surface of compulsive sexual behavior.
Ready to move beyond surface solutions? Listen now to discover how true freedom begins below the waterline.
Resources:
For more information or to join click one of the links below.
Manna - Men seeking freedom from unwanted sexual behavior, temptation, and shame.
Oasis - Women seeking freedom from unwanted sexual behavior, temptation, and shame.
Compass - Wives seeking healing from betrayal and broken trust.
Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole
👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, welcome back to the Becoming Whole podcast.
My name is Aaron Taggart, I'mone of our spiritual coaches at
Regeneration and we have a veryexciting episode for you today.
I'm joined by a very specialguest.
He's been called an architectof mature masculinity.
He's a coach, a speaker, anauthor, who has built a movement
(00:23):
around helping men overcomepornography and live with
confidence and integrity.
He is Sathya Sam.
Sathya is a creator of DeepClean, which is a biblically
grounded, research-based programthat helps thousands of men,
from pastors and doctors toathletes and entrepreneurs, to
find real and lasting freedomfrom pornography.
(00:46):
Sathya, it is a gift to haveyou with us today.
Welcome to Becoming Whole.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Dude, that's quite the intro.
I don't know about that man, Ifelt like a lot, but thank you.
Thank you for having me here.
I'm honored.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Yeah, well, the pleasure is definitely all mine
and let's go ahead and dive in.
I know some of our listenersprobably aren't familiar with
you, as our listenership areboth men and women, but would
you just maybe share a littlebit about you know who you are,
what you do and kind of how yougot to where you're at today?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yeah, so you know my story Helping Men Quit Porn
pornography starts with my ownjourney.
I was exposed to pornography inthe computer lab of my
Christian school when I was 11years old, and that began a
15-year struggle, and I had twoprayers during that struggle.
One was God.
If you help me figure this out,I will do everything in my
(01:40):
power to help as many other menfigure it out as well, and I
feel like God honored thatprayer.
February 2016,.
I had my what I call my lastrelapse, and I waited for
several years.
You know I had had longer boutsof freedom previously and then
sort of fell back into it,although by the time I had
reached this point in my journey, I really started to discover
(02:03):
you know, a lot of the stuff youguys talk about, about what
really addresses more the rootcauses of unwanted sexual
behavior and compulsive sexualbehavior and porn use, and so I
knew that something wasdifferent.
But I also wanted to bediligent and really make sure
that I was equipped and fit tohelp other men in this area.
December 2018 is when Ilaunched Deep Clean and, yeah,
it sort of started as a sidehustle.
(02:24):
I was full-time pastoring andprior to that, I had a full-time
career as a universityresearcher and Deep Clean just
felt like the conglomerate ofthose two arenas of my life my
zeal for research and science,but also my passion for
scripture and the word of Godand pastoring people and so it
started to grow quite a bit,especially during the pandemic.
And, yeah, over the lastseveral years we've been able to
(02:45):
help a thousand plus men quitpornography.
I've been able to champion amessage that I would say is very
again, very aligned with youguys, and it's why I'm so
honored to be here today,because we really believe that
true healing happens in theheart, not with an internet
filter, not with bouncing theeyes, but something a little bit
more underneath the surface.
And that's what we're onmission to just help more people
change more lives and also,hopefully, awaken the world to
(03:07):
the harmful effects ofpornography.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Yeah, wow, man, that's incredible and it's so
sad that, like in a schoolsetting, you know you're, you
were exposed and I know that'sthe case for for a lot.
And in that industry right, Imean it's you know, research
shows you know kids are beingexposed to younger and younger
(03:32):
and it's really through some ofthese you know sort of innocent,
accidental kind of ways.
But you know, on their part,but there are people behind it,
right, that are very much, youknow, kind of capitalizing on
that innocence.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yeah, not an accident , not an accident for sure.
And you know the average age ofexposure is going down.
I don't know how much furtherdown it will go, but the one
thing we know for sure is thatthe volume of content that kids
are consuming at younger ages,and the intensity of that
content, has really really uppedsignificantly.
(04:01):
I think of when I was firstexposed.
That was 2001.
So pre-smartphone, early daysof broadband internet, and not
to say that all that stuff waswholesome, but it certainly was
not the same level of intensitywith aggression and violence
that's in mainstream pornographytoday.
So I consider myself veryfortunate, and I think as well.
The age of exposure is part ofit, but there's a deeper story
(04:22):
there and our kids really doneed to be protected, otherwise
there's gonna be more peoplelike me, unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Absolutely, absolutely, and we can, you know
, do our part to try to helpwith that and help men and women
out of that and families here,you know, regen to enter into
those types of conversationswith their kids so that they can
be the authority in their kids'lives, especially with their
sexuality.
So, yeah, thanks, man.
So you were a pastor and thenthis was a side hustle you
(04:51):
mentioned Deep Clean.
Can you share a little bit moreabout what Deep Clean is, what,
yeah, maybe more specifically,I know that you so kind of
twofold what is Deep Clean.
I know that you so kind oftwofold like what is deep clean
and pornography is reallyprevalent today among especially
high achieving or spiritual men.
(05:11):
So why do you think that is?
And then you kind of use deepclean.
So tell us a little bit abouthow those intersect.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
So when I was a teenager, I had a responsibility
around the home and it was totake care of the grass.
My parents have a huge yard andthat was my one job, my one
responsibility, and it was abeautiful, long, beautiful patch
of grass, very easy to cut.
But there was one little area,aaron, that was weedy and kind
of scraggly looking and notreally that nice.
(05:41):
And as a 15-year-old, 16-yearold kid, I knew that if I wanted
to actually get rid of that,that area, and really have the
whole patch of grass look proper, I needed to get to the roots,
I needed to actually put on somegloves, dig that thing out and
make sure that they would nevergrow back.
But in my, my laziness, my 16year old immaturity, I would
(06:04):
just run over the weeds with thelawnmower again and again and
again, and everything lookedclean long enough, and then the
weeds would grow back and you'dkind of just rinse and repeat.
And what most people settle fortoday when we have these
conversations about unwantedsexual behavior and compulsive
disorders, is solutions that areno different than a lawnmower
(06:25):
running over a weed.
You know, if I tell you tobounce the eyes, that might
temporarily solve a very smallproblem, but it's not really
getting to the heart of thematter.
So deep clean is really theembodiment of a philosophy that
says, rather than trying tosimply modify behavior, rather
(06:47):
than trying to suppress andignore the temptations and our
sexual urges and desires, let'sget more to the heart of the
matter, because underneath thesurface, in the roots, there's
actually a lot of clues aboutwhat's really going on, why
you're watching and, moreimportantly, what would actually
be required for you to stopwatching.
And that's really what deepclean means.
The idea is, we want to cleanyou from the inside out at a
(07:10):
depth level.
We don't just want to do it atthe surface level with behavior
solutions, and I'm not evenreally against the behavioral
solutions, I just know thatthey're incomplete for people to
really experience true healingand lasting freedom.
And I think the reason likewe've been very successful
helping high achievers andentrepreneurs and professionals
you know athletes and that kindof thing in large part because I
(07:30):
think people that are more highachieving and especially that
have climbed a corporate ladderor athletes, would be another
great example.
Most of their training is veryphysical and it's very visible,
and so they've learned, they'velearned to monitor results and
they've learned to climb thingsbased on what's seen.
But the whole deep, cleanphilosophy is the inverse of
(07:50):
that.
It's really on focusing onwhat's unseen.
And so I think you know we hadan addiction physician if you
can believe that, go through ourprogram 12 years of education
to help people with addictions,but more on the chemical
substance abuse side, and he hadnever learned some of the stuff
that we were teaching him.
And that's not a knock on hismed school or anything like that
.
It's more just to state thatthis philosophy is uncommon,
(08:13):
even though you know you and Iwe talk about this stuff all the
time.
But I think a lot of the worldstill doesn't realize how much
of our sexual behavior is rootedmore in our hearts.
And I think if we can help morepeople realize that and
obviously help more people healin their hearts, then that's
what will make us successful.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Yeah, absolutely, man .
I love that analogy of themowing over weeds.
I totally get that.
Man.
I live on seven and a halfacres.
It's mostly wooded but, man,just tons of spots of weeds and
like thin places of growth andall that kind of stuff.
And what you're saying about toreally make that fix is you
(08:50):
have to get in there, you haveto get into that soil, into
those roots.
And it makes me think of Hosea10.12 when it talks about break
up your fallow ground.
And breaking up that fallowground, removing some field
stones, removing some of thesethings that are impending the
ability to have growth, what'sneeded, right, an influx of
(09:14):
nutrients and all of that, allthose good things that happen
when you break up that ground.
And so I love that analogy somuch.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Yeah, and I think it's tough because it is easier
to run over the weeds with alawnmower, it is easier to count
streaks or, you know, to read abook and expect your life to
turn around.
And I think we've kind of beenconditioned in our Western world
to just get you know quickfixes and instant rewards.
So I think that's actually whatmakes this so powerful.
Is you think about why somebodywatches pornography?
(09:47):
They're looking for quick hits,they're looking for instant
rewards, immediate gratification.
And when you settle for a quicksolution, like slapping on an
internet filter as an example,you're really just reinforcing
the parts of you that have beenprogrammed for immediate reward.
And so that whole breaking thefallow ground, there's an
(10:09):
implicit patience, you know,there's an implicit endurance
that is required.
You have to kind of slow downto really make that process
effective.
And I think, even if ourprinciples were completely wrong
and our tools weren't reallythat effective, just the fact
that we would be helping peopleget more to the heart of the
issue, that slower, longerprocess, that in of itself is
(10:33):
reprogramming and is healing forguys.
And you know, once you throw instrategies that are shown to be
effective and you haveprinciples that are, you know
anchored in scripture andresearch.
Then all of a sudden you know aguy's life can turn around
pretty quickly.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah, absolutely Right.
I mean it's, you know thedifference between you know,
throwing a bandaid on somethingthat actually maybe needs a
little more kind of surgicalattention, or a classic iceberg
right, you see the tip of theiceberg, but there's so much
going on underneath to reallyunderstand the magnanimity of
that iceberg and why it's there.
And if you don't address thatlower part, you know, you just
(11:11):
see those, that you know thosesmaller things, that that really
aren't the, the, the issue thatyou need to be getting after.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
So yeah, yeah, and and people, I think like
sometimes it's hard to connectthe dots, like what one of our
most downloaded episodes of alltime on our podcast is called
trigger diggers, which is this,this thing that we have in our,
in our deep, clean coachingprogram, and the whole concept
of trigger diggers is that ifyou pay attention to the things
that tempt you and you, youfollow this process, which is
(11:40):
it's very simple, but you justhave to ask a series of the
right questions.
Follow this process, which isit's very simple, but you just
have to ask a series of theright questions, you can start
to identify pretty quickly somecore beliefs that are actually
underneath our sexualcompulsions and our misbehaviors
.
And people are shocked and I'vehad people come up to me after
teaching this at conferences andthey'll say you know, that was
a really nice talk you gave.
(12:00):
I just couldn't, I can'tbelieve, I couldn't actually see
how any of this, like some liesI believe, could actually be
related to my use of pornography.
You know it's hard to connectthose dots because in our heads
and in a lot of the messagingwe've reduced pornography issues
and sexual misbehaviors to justthat, just behaviors.
(12:21):
And yeah, when you starttalking about, you know, getting
underneath the water, the baseof the iceberg.
It's meatier, it's morecomplicated, but that's really
where the best solutions and themost effective freedom lies.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Yeah, and it makes me think of this shame and
negative self-talk in anindividual, right, and then you
know, like the individual maybethat came and said that to you,
right it's, you know, it's likeyou know what the lies that we
believe.
You know the enemy wants us tobelieve about us, and the
difference between shame andguilt, like I've done something
bad versus I am bad, or I amfill in the blank and we're so
(13:00):
good in the midst of that shameto fill in that, to fill in that
blank with something negative,then shame is a driver, right?
So then that's going to thenlead us to want to well, now I
want to numb that shame, I don'twant to feel that, and then I'm
back in that cycle and patternagain.
So it's so important to to getafter those you know pieces of
(13:22):
of shame and the negativeself-talk and the things that we
we end up believing aboutourselves that aren't true,
because you know we felt thosethings for so long or we believe
them for so long yeah, youcan't out behave your beliefs.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
yeah, so you know, like the, I think that that's
again.
That's why the misnomer of justmodifying behavior is such a
fallacy, because the the beliefsthat you have about yourself,
you hit the nail on the head.
We have three pillars in theDeep Clean system and our third
pillar is shift your identity.
And the whole premise is movingfrom that place of believing
lies and reinforcing them towalking in truth.
(13:57):
And the beautiful thing is,when you really do start to live
in truth, then the behaviorswill just take care of
themselves.
You don't even need to startmodifying them.
But I think again, if you'renot paying attention to those
deeper beliefs that are drivingit, you will keep spinning your
tires trying to modify behavior,not realizing that it's the
(14:19):
beliefs that are driving thisthing.
And if you drive your attentionthere, you'll get much better
results thing.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
And if you drive your attention there, you'll get
much better results.
Yeah, I love that.
Identity is such a crucial,crucial part of that journey.
In fact, we have a retreatcoming up in October and our
theme is going to be on identity.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Just how important that is and on that journey,
that recovery journey.
So that's so good.
Well, I love that you guys doretreats.
It's one of the things thatreally stood out to me is you
guys do a lot of group.
There's a lot of like communalelements and connection embedded
into your solutions and that'sso important for the same thing
we were just talking about a fewminutes ago, right, aaron,
because we know that when youstay hidden, that's what allows
all of these misbehaviors tothrive and to continue and to
(15:03):
persist.
And it's really in.
It's in community where peopleare healed, it's in meaningful
connections and relationships.
And I've had this personalconviction because Deep Clean
was really built virtually andour team is virtual and I love
that.
I love that we're around theworld, that we've had clients
around the world as well, andwe'll continue to do that.
But we are making some majorshifts in the next little bit to
(15:24):
do a lot more in person, likeyou know, retreats and that sort
of thing, because there's justnothing de-shames like in-person
, face-to-face connection at aheart-to-heart level.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely no, I love that man.
The enemy is prowling, right,he prowls, he's looking for,
he's looking to devour.
Yeah, and you know, like a liondoes, and, and lions look for
the isolated, they look for themaimed, the weak.
You know, and that's and that's.
You know what the enemy doeswith isolation if, if, he can
get us isolated and wants us tobe isolated.
(15:58):
And the more isolated a man isand a woman, but you know, the
more isolated somebody is, themore vulnerable you know they
are, and he goes after thosevulnerable.
But you know, the more isolatedsomebody is, the more
vulnerable you know they are andhe goes after those vulnerable
places.
You know, I think when, whenJesus was coming out of the 40
day fast, the enemy attacks himat his most weakest place at
that time, and it was hunger.
(16:19):
The first temptation of Christwas around hunger, because that
was the biggest vulnerability hehad coming out of that
wilderness 40 days of fasting.
I'm starving, man, I haven'tdone a 40 day fast, but I can
imagine right.
And so the enemy straight forthat weakest area, like a lion,
you know, prowling and ready todevour.
(16:40):
So yeah, so true isolation ishuge.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Can I just jump on that really quick?
Sorry, I know you have otherquestions, but this is like.
I almost can't believe that youwent here, because this is when
we teach identity.
In DeClean we talk about thisexact scripture, because I have
an alternate theory to thisscripture.
So in Luke, chapter three,jesus gets baptized, the heavens
render and a voice comes sayingyou are my beloved son and you
(17:06):
are well pleased.
Luke 4,.
He's led by the spirit into thewilderness, exactly as he said.
You know, he's tempted for 40days and then the enemy catches
him in his weakness and tries totempt him and the first words
out of the enemy's mouth are ifyou are the son of God, command
these stones to become bread.
You know it's so interesting heare.
If you are the son of God,command these stones to become
bread.
You know it's so interesting hesays if you are the son of God,
(17:27):
questioning the very truth thatGod spoke about him.
You know, in the previouschapter.
You know, before he entered thewilderness and I think, I think
that's sometimes the thing wedon't realize is the enemy's
playing games.
He, sometimes the thing he'sdangling in front of you is not
really.
It's not the war.
It might be the battle, youknow, to turn these stones into
bread, but the actual war hereis for our identities, for who
we are, which is also whycommunity is so important.
(17:49):
I can tell you, for me, I wouldnot have the level of security
within myself, the level ofconfidence and not that I'm
perfect, but I've grown a lot ifit weren't for the community
and the people that I've hadaround me every step of the way
through my own recovery and wellbeyond that now, and I love.
That's why I love Jesus'response to the enemy in that
scripture, which is man shallnot live on bread alone, but by
(18:12):
every word that proceeds fromthe mouth of God.
And it's just such a goodmantra, rather, for us to live
by as well if we want to reallywalk in truth.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Yeah, oh gosh, man, that's so good, and I even go
back to you, know those wordsthat God does speak over him.
You know, and I think what a lotof people miss is that this is
before Jesus has done any of themiraculous, it's before he
realizes sort of God's agendafor mankind, right, like he just
(18:41):
is this carpenter apprentice,you know, like this boy who's
grown up, you know he hasn'tdone anything really amazing and
he's out of that water.
And this is my son.
I'm well pleased and it's like,well, he hasn't done anything
yet and you're welcome, and that, I really believe, is a
baseline identity for you, forme, for anyone listening to this
(19:04):
.
Like our baseline identity isthat we are sons and daughters
and that our father in heaven iswell pleased with us, before we
can ever do anything to earn it.
I mean, you think of what Jesusdid in the life he lived and
you're like man.
Well, of course, like God leftit.
No, like this is before he didany of that he was like, and
(19:26):
that is for you and that is forme, and that is for everybody
listening, that our baselineidentity begins with those words
that you are my son or daughterand in you.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
I am well pleased yeah no-transcript was really
(20:16):
trying to quit pornography, toseparate my behavior from my
identity, because I reallyfundamentally believed that I
simply was what I do and livingin sort of this performance
mindset and this whole idea thatyou know, god loves me
unconditionally the same way heloved his son before he
performed any miracles, exactlylike you stated, like that's
(20:37):
what really shook the ground ofthat foundation of wait a minute
, if Jesus was perfectly lovedbefore he really did any of his
more godly activities, likeperforming miracles and raising
the dead, then you know like who, who am I?
Who am I to question that kindof love of god and that that
that's a big deal it takes.
(20:57):
I think it takes a long time toreally to really let it do the
18 inch journey from your headto your heart.
But it's, yeah, it's, it's,it's so good, like, for me it
was, it was the thing thatchanged my entire trajectory.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Yeah, even while we were sinners, christ still died
for us.
Yeah, thank you, jesus man,gosh man, it's so good.
So, you know, for someonelistening, sathya, you know,
maybe they haven't stepped intoany sort of recovery journey.
They identify that you knowporn is a problem in their life.
(21:31):
What are some of the firststeps that you would, you know,
say to somebody you know to kindof take or to enter into
recovery?
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Everybody's different .
You know, I think if you'relistening to this and you know
that porn is in your life andyou know that you want it out, I
think that's the best place tostart is to acknowledge that you
want it out Because I thinkit's interesting.
You know, aaron, like I know alot of people, even people, like
I said, who will come up to meafter a conference or listeners
(22:01):
of our podcast or wherever whosay, yeah, you know, I get the
whole porn thing.
I know it's not great, but theymaybe are not.
They're not in that place wherethey're like okay, I actually
want some help.
I think if you want some help,the best thing I can do as, or
the best thing I can suggest asa starting point, is to get
another person involved, and whothat person is is gonna vary.
It depends on your situationand the options that you have.
(22:28):
But the biggest mistake I madethe first three years that I was
trying to quit porn was I didit alone and again it was sort
of that high achiever mentalityof I'm going to figure this out,
I'm going to have the beststory ever and then you know,
then I'll tell the world aboutmy struggles.
Not realizing that telling otherpeople about my struggles was
the solution to de-shaming,breaking out of the secrecy and
(22:48):
starting to actually get to moreof the roots of the issues.
So I think inviting people in isreally important and I think
you know even my own journey.
I started out just bringing onefriend in.
It was a close friend, somebodyI trusted.
It was actually really hard forme to even talk to God about it
because I felt so ashamed and Isort of had a distorted view of
him.
So I thought that if I reallyacknowledged how much I was
(23:09):
struggling with pornography, godwould be angry with me, you
know.
So it was easier for me tobring in a friend first, then
God, and then I mean truly thebest feeling happens in
community, and I think ifsomebody wants to start on that
journey, maybe the idea ofplugging into a community right
away sounds scary.
Some of you might hear that andgo yes, that's exactly what I
need, you know, let me do it andI would say go for it.
(23:29):
But I think the starting pointis to get at least one person in
who can be there with you andhelp you a little bit along the
way.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, if anyone's takinganything away from this, it's
going to be community, community, community.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Oh seriously.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Invite other people in, right, this is not a bro.
I got this, like you know,story after story after story is
bro.
You don't got this.
You need help.
We need, you know, matt carriers.
I think of the.
You know the guy that wanted togo before Jesus but couldn't,
you know, and and his friendscarry him on this mat.
(24:05):
You know they carry him, theyclimb with him and they care for
him, even at the top, likeyou're taking the roof apart.
You know you're going to makesure he's not falling off the
roof, right, they're caring forhim and they lower him in there,
right.
And so we need those matcarriers.
We need people in our lives whobecause the truth is, we all
end up on that mat.
You know, in some way, shape orform, financially, sexually,
(24:28):
broken, like we're, like we livein a broken world, we live in a
fallen world.
The enemy is relentless.
He wants to steal, kill,destroy and oh, by the way, he
doesn't stop, right, we needpeople that can be there to
support us, to lift us up whenwe can't lift ourselves up, and
so I love all the things you'resaying about just the importance
of community and all that's soimportant.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, well, like I said, I've had a conviction
about it, Like really justeverything we've done.
When I first started coachingpeople, I did one-on-one.
We outgrew that.
We started running groups outof necessity.
And then the first group call Iever ran, I just the
experiences was so different youknow the guys are kind of
making jokes with each other.
You can tell they're engaging alot more.
(25:11):
There's just there was somethingspecial about it and I vowed
after that first call I willnever do anything that doesn't
have some sort of communalelement.
I didn't want them to just getstuff from me, I wanted to get,
I wanted them to get help fromeach other and so, yeah, so we
have just continued to try tothink of ways to do that.
We actually are just launchinga new product now that is
(25:36):
literally just community-based.
It's just a chance forlike-minded dudes to be in
community, share openly witheach other, get our deep, clean
system, get coaching, all thatgood stuff.
But the real emphasis is likecommunity, just plug in, connect
with other guys, because Idon't think there's anything
else that's more powerful thanthat.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Yeah, absolutely, and we'll circle back to that at
the end and let you talk alittle bit more.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Oh sure yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Anything else too that you've got coming up or
that you're just really excitedabout.
So yeah, but so I know, for me,like in some of the work that I
do with individuals, you know,one of the biggest areas and I
think this is kind of getting atthe under the surface of the
iceberg type of stuff is thatthe emotional sort of immaturity
you know, or the you know, theability to you know be
(26:17):
empathetic, or do those you knowshow up differently than maybe
what they have you know forthemselves, but also for you
know their partners.
And so you know I'm curious,you know, just in like in the
work that you do with men, sothis gets into kind of being
strong leaders and emotionallyavailable.
You know partners, but how haveyou helped men to have maybe
(26:41):
some of those toughconversations with their spouse
or significant other or to growin those sort of emotional ways
in which maybe they've had somedeficits?
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Yeah, so okay, this is a layered question, but a
really, really good one.
It's interesting.
And just to back you up on whatyou said there a little bit,
because I scoured the researchquite a bit, my researcher hat
has never really come off frommy university days and there's a
fascinating study.
This was probably two or threeyears ago and they were paying
attention to how pathways in thebrain regarding empathy are
(27:15):
affected by people who viewpornography and, not
surprisingly, those pathwaysbasically started to shut off
and become inactive the morefrequently and the longer that
people viewed porn.
It was just an inherentbyproduct and I have a couple of
theories on why that is.
But I would say the embeddedmessage about pornography and
the consumption of pornographyis that it's all about you, it's
(27:37):
all about your needs, it's allabout your desires, it's all
about your wants and it's aboutyour pleasure.
And so I think porn kind ofdoes this weird programming to
us subconsciously we don't evenrealize it that basically tells
us you're more important thananyone else.
You know your sexual partner,your wife included.
So I think for somebody who'sstruggling with pornography and
(27:59):
you're feeling the emotionaldisconnect number one,
understand that there's probablyjust some shifts, even
physiologically that havehappened in your brain.
But I think the other part ofit is, if you're going to have
some conversations about it, youmight want to have a little bit
of intentionality behind it.
This is a really importantsubject.
It's very delicate and the wayit's not just that you have the
(28:21):
conversation, because that endof itself I think can take a lot
of convincing for guys.
A lot of guys sort of purposein their heart that they'll just
take this with them to thegrave and we would call that
concealing.
You know, and you want to justconceal as long as you can.
But I've discovered somethinginteresting about concealing
just after being in this spacelong enough now and helping
quite a few guys quitpornography.
Concealing is actually a myth.
(28:43):
There's no such thing asconcealing sexual misbehavior.
Concealing is really just stageone.
Stage two is called gettingcaught, and as long as you
conceal, it's really just amatter of time.
And so the guy who is listeningagain, I'm not trying to fear
monger and I'm not trying topush you into doing something
you don't want to do, but theconcealment strategy just
(29:07):
doesn't.
It doesn't work.
It always ends in a disaster.
But if you're willing to havethe conversation which I know is
where your question was leading.
There's a lot more hope Because,as weird as it might sound, you
know most of your interactionswith your spouse are either a
deposit or withdrawal.
Right, there's a relationshipbank account and we know the
good things that put depositsinto the accounts and we
(29:29):
probably know the not so goodthings, or the favors, or you
know having to be forgiven forsomething that kind of take a
withdrawal out and the amazingthing is that getting caught is
a withdrawal.
It's a major withdrawal.
I mean, that thing can wipe thebank account right out.
But being willing to have thatconversation an honest
conversation, confessional, ifyou will Confession is actually
(29:51):
yes, it's still withdrawal, butit's also deposit because you
chose to tell the truth and youchose to have some integrity by
not getting caught.
So, anyways, a lot of contextthere.
To actually answer your question, I think two things need to
happen if you're going to have aconversation with your partner.
Number one is you need to havea pretty decent understanding of
your own story Now.
(30:12):
You don't need to have it allfigured out I'm definitely not
suggesting that but for you tosimply a lot of guys just go
into this conversation and thinkthey just need to state some
facts, and that is usually moreharmful than it is helpful.
You have to understand a littlebit of your story, of what's
going on and why you're watching, probably knowing some details
like when did this start and howdid it evolve.
(30:32):
The better you understand yourstory, the better off you're
going to be.
The first pillar we teach guyswhen they do deep clean is build
self-awareness, understand yourinner world and your inner life
and gain an understanding ofthat.
And I would say the secondthing is you probably want some
guidance from somebody on how toreally do this conversation
well.
I mean, we even have people inour network that are disclosure
(30:54):
experts, and so we will refer tothem as well Just an
experienced, unbiased thirdparty who can facilitate that
conversation and do it reallywell, because we've seen this
conversation happen.
Do it really well Because we'veseen this conversation happen
and, admittedly, when I wasyounger, helping guys and I
didn't know as much as I do nowI would kind of help guys get
into the conversation and itwouldn't go over well and I
(31:16):
realized they weren't executingit properly.
You know, it was really on mypart, I wasn't teaching them
well, and so I think it's notjust that you have the
conversation, but it's that youdo it really well, and one
little maybe nugget that I thinkkind of puts all this together
is put yourself in her shoes,like if you're going to tell her
this devastating news.
(31:38):
You know a lot of guys it'slike they've had all the time to
think about it and process itand, you know, listen to this
podcast giving them a little bitof guidance on it, and so they
go in and they just kind of putit all out there, not realizing
like this is, this is, this islike shocking news, this is a
lot for your spouse to take in.
And so I think having someunderstanding and some again
like re-engaging that empathygoing into this process really
(32:00):
goes a long way, so that you'reyou're not just doing this so
that you can get the monkey offyour back.
You're actually doing it in away that could point things in
the right direction, towardshealing, growth and connection.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Yeah, yeah, that's really good man.
I mean we do disclosures hereat Regeneration Awesome.
And I, you know those are veryhard but very beautiful
processes and I think what's soimportant, especially for those,
you know, listening is justthat you know both are supported
.
It's support for both, becauseboth of us, or the guy, needs
support and and the spouse needssupport as well.
(32:35):
And so we're, you know, we'revery sort of, you know, just
mindful of, of the need.
And I ask guys all the time whenthey come in, you know and they
share, you know my wife foundout blah, blah, blah, you know,
and I'm like, okay, like, is shegetting support?
Does she have?
Because I think it's so, it'sso easy to kind of, you know,
(32:56):
maybe glaze over that, or but toeven help him.
See, hey, like this isn't evena moment for you to, in the
midst of all of this, to alsoencourage her to to get the help
that she needs, so that youguys as a, as a couple, can
navigate, because now there'slike you're healing, she needs
to heal and your relationshipneeds to heal.
(33:17):
So these, these threecomponents, and and again, like
with community or with othertrusted, maybe professionals,
you know, like that's it'seasier to step into that, and so
I think it's yeah, it's superimportant to you know that you
just don't walk sort of thatjourney alone.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
That's such a good point because the yeah, when
you're married, you know the twobecome one.
So if, if you have struggledwith pornography and you need to
get help and to heal, your wifeis part of that journey.
And, like you said, she's partof that journey in the sense
that, the same way you needsupport, she needs support and
she's likely going to go throughsome sort of journey of her own
(33:58):
.
You know, depending on, maybe,whether she does some betrayal
trauma therapy or recovery oreven something lighter than that
.
It's still there's a grievingprocess, there's a questioning
and a curiosity process whereyou wanna kind of try to connect
some dots and some previousincidents.
Like she goes through her ownprocess as well, and that's
actually a beautiful thing,because that's what allows
(34:18):
couples to come back strongerand better than ever.
It's that they both go on theirjourneys, you know, a little
bit together and probably alittle bit separate and apart in
parallel, and that's what kindof leads to the rebirth of a
really incredible marriage.
And we've seen this in so manyof our clients now I mean
clients who even got divorcedand got back together, because
they both went on their healingjourneys and the guy quit
(34:39):
pornography and he started toreally show genuine love and
genuine empathy, genuine empathyand care.
And you know the wife, the wiferesponded, the wife kind of
woke up again and and I thinkthat kind of stuff can happen
when this process is done.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Well, yeah, absolutely, and I think you know
to the individual, maybe that'sgoing through, maybe you know
you got caught and maybe youconfessed.
You know, I think confession isdefinitely better than getting
caught, but it's still hardeither way.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
It's still tough.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
New information, right, and there's wounds and
sort of this transfer of youknow, whether you call it power
or just information, right, youknow you're stepping into the
light and that's great, butyou're also illuminating some
really hard things.
And you know, when we dodisclosure work and I think
about couples, I think aboutlike the intimacy pyramid, and
so there's the, there's the youknow base layer of truth.
(35:28):
So guys that I work with oftenfeel like man.
I finally, you know, I've I'vesaid you know the truth,
everything's out there, you know, whether you know you got
caught or if it's through adisclosure or something, and
then it's almost like this, liketheir experience is this like
coming up for air, like whenyou've been craving a breath
underwater and you're like, oh,like I can breathe again, you
know, but it's like okay, andwith it, and that's real, you
(35:51):
know.
But now there's also this otherside too.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Yeah, you just dumped your wife in the same water.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Exactly.
Yes, it's almost like you'rekind of holding her down with
your feet now that you'regetting a breath or something,
but and then you know thatsecond layer is safety and guys
want to bypass that.
They want to go like hey, I'vetold you the truth, can we go?
Can we go to the third layer,you know, which is trust.
Like I want to trust, you know,like and I don't know if you
see that with kind of guys thatyou work with, but this, this
(36:17):
safety element, is so important.
I think that's where the empathycomes in.
And I know in my own journey,you know, like you know when,
when I used to be askedquestions why from my wife, I, I
, like, I got super frustratedand it came out sideways and
such a better response would belike, you know, honey, I I don't
know why, I don't know theanswer to that, but I'm going to
(36:37):
work to find out and I thinkthat's so different and showing
up with some of that empathy andemotional maturity and it takes
some time to kind of get there.
But I think that's the movementand that's what you want to
move towards and see as you'rekind of trying to rebuild or
kind of you know those layers ofthe intimacy pyramid, or just
(36:58):
that relationship?
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Yeah, well, this is where what we were talking about
earlier, with kind of a rootsbased approach for a guy who's
in recovery, becomes veryrelevant here as well.
And this is where what we weretalking about earlier, with kind
of a roots-based approach for aguy who's in recovery, becomes
very relevant here as well,because it requires patience.
You know you really have toslow down and you have to
understand that your marriagehealing happens not just at the
pace that you quit pornography,but also at the pace that your
wife is able to trust again, andtrust is easily broken but it's
(37:23):
slowly rebuilt.
So that patience thing you'retalking about is a really big
deal.
And yes, guys, I think do havethat tendency.
Okay, I got off my chest.
Now you know everything.
Let's talk about some solutions, let's get things moving.
You know we can be very actionoriented and God made us that
way for a reason.
It's not a bad thing.
We just have to kind ofunderstand, you know, when to
(37:45):
tether it a little bit more, andI think the patient approach is
so important.
Just for maybe guys to hearthis a little bit differently,
the thing that a partnertypically is looking for when
there's been this kind ofbetrayal is they need to see
enough consistency over longperiods of time.
That's what actually breedstrust and it is consistency, of
course, with not watchingpornography and behaving upright
(38:11):
in that regard, but it's alsoconsistency at a character level
, you know, letting your yes beyes, your no be no, being rich
in love, slow to anger, you know.
The list goes on there and thatjust takes time.
You know, and I went through myentire story with pornography
happened as a single person.
But my wife and I had a verycomplex engagement.
You know, we buried fiverelatives during our engagement.
She was bedridden for most ofit.
(38:33):
There was something going on inher body that doctors didn't
know and I actually wound uppostponing our wedding date
because I didn't feel ready toget married with everything that
was going on.
It just felt like too much.
And it's not that I was out ofthe relationship, but I just.
I wanted to delay things and Iwanted to get a little bit more
clarity, especially on herhealth issue, but it felt to her
(38:55):
like betrayal, like it felt toher like why can't we just get
married with the way things areNow?
I'll shelf that discussion foranother day, but the point I
want guys to get is just a yearago.
I've been married five yearsnow.
So at around the four-year markmy wife said you know, I
finally feel like I have fulltrust in you and full confidence
(39:16):
that you're not gonna leave me.
I mean, it took that long.
That long, you know, we've beenmarried and again, I didn't
never threatened to leave themarriage or anything like that.
Her heart just needed to seeenough consistency over a long
enough period of time to fullybreathe again.
And it's not to say that everystory takes five years.
You and I both know this.
(39:38):
You can't put timelines on mostof this stuff.
It's so nuanced and individual.
But the point is you just haveto be patient and what you learn
as you accept how patient youhave to be, which is more
patient than you could probablyeven imagine.
What you learn is the actualreward is the journey.
It's not about the destination.
It's really about the processand the growth and that
(40:00):
endurance and that, thatcharacter.
And that endurance and thatcharacter and that fortitude
that gets forged in these longerenduring places.
That's really the actual rewardof this thing.
You just have to get a littlebit deeper into it before you
realize it.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Yeah, gosh, that's so good.
I just watched that new show onApple with John Krasinski.
It's kind of like a rip off.
National Treasure.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Yeah, I forget what it's called.
I know what you're talkingabout.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Yeah, it's escaping me, but there's a line that they
go back to time and time againand it is about the journey is
greater than sort of thattreasure at the end.
There's so much to take in likeabout that journey.
Then there is sort of the likethe end, you know thing they're
trying to find or, ultimately,you know, move towards.
(40:46):
So it's just interesting yeah,yeah, you bring that up and just
really reminds me of that.
Well, hey, just a couple morethings.
Like I'm curious if there is asuccess story that sort of
stands out to you like from yourcoaching and and work with men
many, many.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
You know there's many , but I'm thinking of the
conversation we had today and Ihave one story in mind that I
think will tie this whole thingtogether.
So this man's name is Franklin.
He's shared his full story withus on our podcast and it's on
our page, so he has no issueswith me using his name.
Franklin was married to hiswife, rhonda, for many years I'm
forgetting now, I think it wasaround a decade and it was the
(41:28):
classic.
You know.
They kind of ran into roommatesyndrome a little bit Not a lot
of emotional connection Triedsome therapy and some counseling
and Rhonda one day just decidedshe was done.
She couldn't really connectwith him Now, she didn't know
this, but he was addicted topornography and that was a huge
reason for the discord and thedisconnect and a lot of the
issues that were driving thatwere in their marriage.
(41:48):
Rather, so they divorce.
Franklin kind of has this man Ineed to get my life in order and
he gets a lot of his life inorder, but he still continues to
struggle with pornography.
And Rhonda, his wife, one day,probably about eight, nine years
later, calls him and says Ithink I left some stuff at the
house.
I've looked high and low for it.
(42:09):
I'm pretty sure it's there, canyou check?
And he looks around because hestill was in the house that they
lived in when they were marriedand he says, yeah, actually I
do have it here.
She says, perfect, I need tocome by and grab it.
There's some stuff in therethat I need.
They start talking.
They haven't seen each other inyears and it's just very.
It's just cordial, you know,and it's more pleasant than both
of them were expecting.
And she leaves and goes home.
(42:31):
But little do they know.
Like that kind of catalyzesthis dating phase again, getting
to know each other again, andthey end up getting remarried
and a year into their secondmarriage together.
Now Franklin, who is, you know,the high achieving professional
, has all the accolades.
He's now much more accomplishedin his career, has done some
work as well from their divorce.
(42:52):
But it surfaces that this guyhas a porn addiction and she
basically says, like hey, likeyou got to take care of this,
because we know how much thisdrove issues in our first
marriage, and so she wasgracious about it.
But she was also, you know,affirmative, like hey, you gotta
do something about this.
(43:12):
So that's when he came to us.
And the really interesting thingabout Franklin is all the stuff
we talked about today in therealm of self-awareness, you
know, which for us is kind ofabout understanding the inner
life, the thoughts and theemotions and the beliefs and
those key elements that aregoing on underneath the surface,
usually driving a lot of ourbehavior.
(43:34):
He was totally numb to thosebecause the way he learns to
achieve professionally was toignore your feelings, ignore,
you know, those bad thoughts inyour head and kind of just
positive psychology and let'spush this thing forward.
And so for him, buildingself-awareness, all the stuff we
talked about today, that wasthe unlock for him.
And he still went through ourentire process.
(43:56):
Like I said, we have threesteps.
But the amazing thing is, ifanyone on listening wants to go
watch the video of FranklinSharer's story, he doesn't just
share it himself, but Rhondajoins him and they testify
together of how not only did hequit porn, but he began to
rebuild trust in his marriage,to show his wife hey, I'm not
(44:17):
the person that you divorced andI'm not even the person that
maybe came into this marriage.
I'm a different person.
And I asked Rhonda, I said whydidn't you leave him, like you
already left him once.
You had this history and evenstatistically, the divorce stats
all say you know, if you'vedivorced once, you're much more
likely to divorce again.
So it just from me, from myperspective, everything said she
(44:40):
probably just should havedivorced the guy again, or that
she would have not, maybe thatshe should have said she
probably just should havedivorced the guy again, or that
she would have not, maybe thatshe should have.
And I asked her, I said why didyou stick around?
And she said all I know is thathe needed to know I believed in
him, if he was really going tochange.
And I think for me that storyhas just always stuck out.
(45:02):
You know, there's that famousadage that behind every great
man there's an even greaterwoman.
Totally, and I think you know,whether you're listening to this
today as a man who's talkingabout pornography, or maybe as a
woman who feels betrayed bytheir spouse or their partner
who's watching.
I just want you to know thatyou can actually affect a change
in his recovery, in hisrecovery.
And to the men who arelistening to this, I just want
(45:23):
you to know that you know,whether you're young or old,
whether you've had affairs,whether you bought sex or you
know we've had clients who'vejust been addicted to porn for
50, 60 years.
Some of them, you know, they'rein their latter years of life
and they're pursuing freedom.
Freedom is not just possiblefor you, but it's probable for
you when you do the right things, when you have the system that
(45:44):
helps you get to the roots, whenyou have a community like we
discussed, those things areinevitable.
Speaker 1 (45:51):
You really just have to stick with them long enough.
Yeah, man, and it's never toolate.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
No, never, never, never.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
You know, to get started on that journey and to
embark on, you know that deeperhealing and wholeness in your
life.
Gosh, that's good.
Sathya.
What would you say to your 18year old self, if, if you could
go back and tell him one thing,what would you?
What would you say to youngSathya?
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Don't do it alone.
Yeah, whatever you do, do justdo it with other people.
One other person, a coupleother people.
You want to join a full-oncommunity.
You know, if you want to grow,if you want to heal, if you want
to become the person god madeyou to be, don't do it alone
yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
I mean, I love that and because that's we're not
made to be alone, no, made forcommunity.
You know it's in.
You know, if we're made in hisimage, part of that image is he
exists eternally in a communityof three Father, son, right and
we're made in his image.
(47:01):
So we have put inside of usthis longing, even if we don't
realize it for others andsometimes we don't see that
because we feel like the recluseor we feel that deep isolation.
But at the core again, thetruth of who we are and who
we've been made to be, aremembers of a body, a part of a
(47:24):
community.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
That's such a good point.
Yeah, I was just going to addreal quick you know, paul wrote
in first Corinthians 15, verse33, I believe it is that bad
company corrupts good character.
You know, and yeah, I just, Iwas just thinking about what you
said.
It's so true.
It was just making me realizelike, as an 18 yearold, I could
have done everything I wanted todo on my own, and it might have
(47:47):
even worked for a little bit.
But without the right supportto nurture it, to sustain it and
to help it continue to grow,somewhere along the way I would
have fallen off.
And it's that good company thatjust goes such a long way to
getting good results and goodcharacter and becoming those
people that God made us to be.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Yeah, absolutely so good.
So, Theo, I kind of want togive you a little bit of the
last word, in a sense.
You mentioned earlier that youguys have sort of a new product,
a group sort of thing kind ofcoming out or launching.
I'd love for you just to beable to share a little bit more
about that, or any otherdevelopments or projects that
you're particularly excitedabout that are in the works for
(48:30):
you guys and man Within.
Speaker 2 (48:32):
Yeah.
So I have two things that Iwould recommend to your audience
specifically.
Yeah, we do have Deep CleanInner Circle is the name of what
we've just launched, and thatis really for men who want to
plug into a community.
They want to get our deep cleansystem.
They want coaching from me andmy head coach, but they want it
at an affordable rate, becauseif you were going to work with
us more closely, then it's agreater financial investment.
But DeepClean Inner Circle isreally a great place to start
(48:55):
and there's incredible,incredible stories coming out of
that community.
But what I would actually likemost of your audience to do is
to just go check out my podcast.
But what I would actually likemost of your audience to do is
to just go check out my podcast.
Check out it's called the manWithin, the man Within Podcast
and that's a really goodstarting point.
Just see if you like ourcontent, see if the message
lands and if you get some valuefrom that, then that's probably
a good sign.
(49:15):
That Deem Clean Inner Circlewould be another good step to
take afterwards.
But go check out the podcastfirst, see if it makes sense.
It's available on all majorplatforms and go check out the
podcast first see if it makessense.
It's available on all major,major platforms and you know we
have.
I'm always blown away at thekind of guests that that we're
able to land.
After this interview with you,aaron, I'm going to be
interviewing john eldridge, andso there's, there's, you know,
those kinds of great people onthere.
But then I also do teachingsegments, little 10, 12 minute
(49:36):
snippets to just give people alittle injection for the day.
Because, let's not kidourselves, you know, this is a
daily struggle and we need helpdaily.
We need, we need the word ofGod, we need the truth, we need
encouragement, we need storiesof inspiration in our ears and
in our hearts daily, and that'sthe goal of the podcast.
That's why we do, you know,four to five episodes a week.
So it's men within on all majorplatforms.
So good.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
So the yeah, so it's like quivers, you know, like all
the, all these resources.
You know I'd rather be moreresource than under resource.
Yeah, that's right, so good,yeah.
So, man, it has been a delightto have you on becoming whole
today and just say thank you somuch for the work that you're
doing, for your story and justfor your, your voice and your
leadership in this space.
Man, this was a really funconversation.
(50:25):
So thanks again, man, forsharing your leadership in this
space.
Man, this was a really funconversation.
So thanks again, man, forsharing your heart with us on
Becoming Whole.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
Oh hey, I love what you guys are doing, man.
Thanks for letting me be partof it today.
It was a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
Yeah, god bless you, man, you too.
Well, welcome back to the Becoming Whole podcast.
My name is Aaron Taggart, I'mone of our spiritual coaches at
Regeneration and we have a veryexciting episode for you today.
I'm joined by a very specialguest.
He's been called an architectof mature masculinity.
He's a coach, a speaker, anauthor, who has built a movement
(00:23):
around helping men overcomepornography and live with
confidence and integrity.
He is Sathya Sam.
Sathya is a creator of DeepClean, which is a biblically
grounded, research-based programthat helps thousands of men,
from pastors and doctors toathletes and entrepreneurs, to
find real and lasting freedomfrom pornography.
(00:46):
Sathya, it is a gift to haveyou with us today.
Welcome to Becoming Whole.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Dude, that's quite the intro.
I don't know about that man, Ifelt like a lot, but thank you.
Thank you for having me here.
I'm honored.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Yeah, well, the pleasure is definitely all mine
and let's go ahead and dive in.
I know some of our listenersprobably aren't familiar with
you, as our listenership areboth men and women, but would
you just maybe share a littlebit about you know who you are,
what you do and kind of how yougot to where you're at today?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yeah, so you know my story Helping Men Quit Porn
pornography starts with my ownjourney.
I was exposed to pornography inthe computer lab of my
Christian school when I was 11years old, and that began a
15-year struggle, and I had twoprayers during that struggle.
One was God.
If you help me figure this out,I will do everything in my
(01:40):
power to help as many other menfigure it out as well, and I
feel like God honored thatprayer.
February 2016,.
I had my what I call my lastrelapse, and I waited for
several years.
You know I had had longer boutsof freedom previously and then
sort of fell back into it,although by the time I had
reached this point in my journey, I really started to discover
(02:03):
you know, a lot of the stuff youguys talk about, about what
really addresses more the rootcauses of unwanted sexual
behavior and compulsive sexualbehavior and porn use, and so I
knew that something wasdifferent.
But I also wanted to bediligent and really make sure
that I was equipped and fit tohelp other men in this area.
December 2018 is when Ilaunched Deep Clean and, yeah,
it sort of started as a sidehustle.
(02:24):
I was full-time pastoring andprior to that, I had a full-time
career as a universityresearcher and Deep Clean just
felt like the conglomerate ofthose two arenas of my life my
zeal for research and science,but also my passion for
scripture and the word of Godand pastoring people and so it
started to grow quite a bit,especially during the pandemic.
And, yeah, over the lastseveral years we've been able to
(02:45):
help a thousand plus men quitpornography.
I've been able to champion amessage that I would say is very
again, very aligned with youguys, and it's why I'm so
honored to be here today,because we really believe that
true healing happens in theheart, not with an internet
filter, not with bouncing theeyes, but something a little bit
more underneath the surface.
And that's what we're onmission to just help more people
change more lives and also,hopefully, awaken the world to
(03:07):
the harmful effects ofpornography.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Yeah, wow, man, that's incredible and it's so
sad that, like in a schoolsetting, you know you're, you
were exposed and I know that'sthe case for for a lot.
And in that industry right, Imean it's you know, research
shows you know kids are beingexposed to younger and younger
(03:32):
and it's really through some ofthese you know sort of innocent,
accidental kind of ways.
But you know, on their part,but there are people behind it,
right, that are very much, youknow, kind of capitalizing on
that innocence.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yeah, not an accident , not an accident for sure.
And you know the average age ofexposure is going down.
I don't know how much furtherdown it will go, but the one
thing we know for sure is thatthe volume of content that kids
are consuming at younger ages,and the intensity of that
content, has really really uppedsignificantly.
(04:01):
I think of when I was firstexposed.
That was 2001.
So pre-smartphone, early daysof broadband internet, and not
to say that all that stuff waswholesome, but it certainly was
not the same level of intensitywith aggression and violence
that's in mainstream pornographytoday.
So I consider myself veryfortunate, and I think as well.
The age of exposure is part ofit, but there's a deeper story
(04:22):
there and our kids really doneed to be protected, otherwise
there's gonna be more peoplelike me, unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Absolutely, absolutely, and we can, you know
, do our part to try to helpwith that and help men and women
out of that and families here,you know, regen to enter into
those types of conversationswith their kids so that they can
be the authority in their kids'lives, especially with their
sexuality.
So, yeah, thanks, man.
So you were a pastor and thenthis was a side hustle you
(04:51):
mentioned Deep Clean.
Can you share a little bit moreabout what Deep Clean is, what,
yeah, maybe more specifically,I know that you so kind of
twofold what is Deep Clean.
I know that you so kind oftwofold like what is deep clean
and pornography is reallyprevalent today among especially
high achieving or spiritual men.
(05:11):
So why do you think that is?
And then you kind of use deepclean.
So tell us a little bit abouthow those intersect.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
So when I was a teenager, I had a responsibility
around the home and it was totake care of the grass.
My parents have a huge yard andthat was my one job, my one
responsibility, and it was abeautiful, long, beautiful patch
of grass, very easy to cut.
But there was one little area,aaron, that was weedy and kind
of scraggly looking and notreally that nice.
(05:41):
And as a 15-year-old, 16-yearold kid, I knew that if I wanted
to actually get rid of that,that area, and really have the
whole patch of grass look proper, I needed to get to the roots,
I needed to actually put on somegloves, dig that thing out and
make sure that they would nevergrow back.
But in my, my laziness, my 16year old immaturity, I would
(06:04):
just run over the weeds with thelawnmower again and again and
again, and everything lookedclean long enough, and then the
weeds would grow back and you'dkind of just rinse and repeat.
And what most people settle fortoday when we have these
conversations about unwantedsexual behavior and compulsive
disorders, is solutions that areno different than a lawnmower
(06:25):
running over a weed.
You know, if I tell you tobounce the eyes, that might
temporarily solve a very smallproblem, but it's not really
getting to the heart of thematter.
So deep clean is really theembodiment of a philosophy that
says, rather than trying tosimply modify behavior, rather
(06:47):
than trying to suppress andignore the temptations and our
sexual urges and desires, let'sget more to the heart of the
matter, because underneath thesurface, in the roots, there's
actually a lot of clues aboutwhat's really going on, why
you're watching and, moreimportantly, what would actually
be required for you to stopwatching.
And that's really what deepclean means.
The idea is, we want to cleanyou from the inside out at a
(07:10):
depth level.
We don't just want to do it atthe surface level with behavior
solutions, and I'm not evenreally against the behavioral
solutions, I just know thatthey're incomplete for people to
really experience true healingand lasting freedom.
And I think the reason likewe've been very successful
helping high achievers andentrepreneurs and professionals
you know athletes and that kindof thing in large part because I
(07:30):
think people that are more highachieving and especially that
have climbed a corporate ladderor athletes, would be another
great example.
Most of their training is veryphysical and it's very visible,
and so they've learned, they'velearned to monitor results and
they've learned to climb thingsbased on what's seen.
But the whole deep, cleanphilosophy is the inverse of
(07:50):
that.
It's really on focusing onwhat's unseen.
And so I think you know we hadan addiction physician if you
can believe that, go through ourprogram 12 years of education
to help people with addictions,but more on the chemical
substance abuse side, and he hadnever learned some of the stuff
that we were teaching him.
And that's not a knock on hismed school or anything like that
.
It's more just to state thatthis philosophy is uncommon,
(08:13):
even though you know you and Iwe talk about this stuff all the
time.
But I think a lot of the worldstill doesn't realize how much
of our sexual behavior is rootedmore in our hearts.
And I think if we can help morepeople realize that and
obviously help more people healin their hearts, then that's
what will make us successful.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Yeah, absolutely, man .
I love that analogy of themowing over weeds.
I totally get that.
Man.
I live on seven and a halfacres.
It's mostly wooded but, man,just tons of spots of weeds and
like thin places of growth andall that kind of stuff.
And what you're saying about toreally make that fix is you
(08:50):
have to get in there, you haveto get into that soil, into
those roots.
And it makes me think of Hosea10.12 when it talks about break
up your fallow ground.
And breaking up that fallowground, removing some field
stones, removing some of thesethings that are impending the
ability to have growth, what'sneeded, right, an influx of
(09:14):
nutrients and all of that, allthose good things that happen
when you break up that ground.
And so I love that analogy somuch.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Yeah, and I think it's tough because it is easier
to run over the weeds with alawnmower, it is easier to count
streaks or, you know, to read abook and expect your life to
turn around.
And I think we've kind of beenconditioned in our Western world
to just get you know quickfixes and instant rewards.
So I think that's actually whatmakes this so powerful.
Is you think about why somebodywatches pornography?
(09:47):
They're looking for quick hits,they're looking for instant
rewards, immediate gratification.
And when you settle for a quicksolution, like slapping on an
internet filter as an example,you're really just reinforcing
the parts of you that have beenprogrammed for immediate reward.
And so that whole breaking thefallow ground, there's an
(10:09):
implicit patience, you know,there's an implicit endurance
that is required.
You have to kind of slow downto really make that process
effective.
And I think, even if ourprinciples were completely wrong
and our tools weren't reallythat effective, just the fact
that we would be helping peopleget more to the heart of the
issue, that slower, longerprocess, that in of itself is
(10:33):
reprogramming and is healing forguys.
And you know, once you throw instrategies that are shown to be
effective and you haveprinciples that are, you know
anchored in scripture andresearch.
Then all of a sudden you know aguy's life can turn around
pretty quickly.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah, absolutely Right.
I mean it's, you know thedifference between you know,
throwing a bandaid on somethingthat actually maybe needs a
little more kind of surgicalattention, or a classic iceberg
right, you see the tip of theiceberg, but there's so much
going on underneath to reallyunderstand the magnanimity of
that iceberg and why it's there.
And if you don't address thatlower part, you know, you just
(11:11):
see those, that you know thosesmaller things, that that really
aren't the, the, the issue thatyou need to be getting after.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
So yeah, yeah, and and people, I think like
sometimes it's hard to connectthe dots, like what one of our
most downloaded episodes of alltime on our podcast is called
trigger diggers, which is this,this thing that we have in our,
in our deep, clean coachingprogram, and the whole concept
of trigger diggers is that ifyou pay attention to the things
that tempt you and you, youfollow this process, which is
(11:40):
it's very simple, but you justhave to ask a series of the
right questions.
Follow this process, which isit's very simple, but you just
have to ask a series of theright questions, you can start
to identify pretty quickly somecore beliefs that are actually
underneath our sexualcompulsions and our misbehaviors
.
And people are shocked and I'vehad people come up to me after
teaching this at conferences andthey'll say you know, that was
a really nice talk you gave.
(12:00):
I just couldn't, I can'tbelieve, I couldn't actually see
how any of this, like some liesI believe, could actually be
related to my use of pornography.
You know it's hard to connectthose dots because in our heads
and in a lot of the messagingwe've reduced pornography issues
and sexual misbehaviors to justthat, just behaviors.
(12:21):
And yeah, when you starttalking about, you know, getting
underneath the water, the baseof the iceberg.
It's meatier, it's morecomplicated, but that's really
where the best solutions and themost effective freedom lies.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Yeah, and it makes me think of this shame and
negative self-talk in anindividual, right, and then you
know, like the individual maybethat came and said that to you,
right it's, you know, it's likeyou know what the lies that we
believe.
You know the enemy wants us tobelieve about us, and the
difference between shame andguilt, like I've done something
bad versus I am bad, or I amfill in the blank and we're so
(13:00):
good in the midst of that shameto fill in that, to fill in that
blank with something negative,then shame is a driver, right?
So then that's going to thenlead us to want to well, now I
want to numb that shame, I don'twant to feel that, and then I'm
back in that cycle and patternagain.
So it's so important to to getafter those you know pieces of
(13:22):
of shame and the negativeself-talk and the things that we
we end up believing aboutourselves that aren't true,
because you know we felt thosethings for so long or we believe
them for so long yeah, youcan't out behave your beliefs.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
yeah, so you know, like the, I think that that's
again.
That's why the misnomer of justmodifying behavior is such a
fallacy, because the the beliefsthat you have about yourself,
you hit the nail on the head.
We have three pillars in theDeep Clean system and our third
pillar is shift your identity.
And the whole premise is movingfrom that place of believing
lies and reinforcing them towalking in truth.
(13:57):
And the beautiful thing is,when you really do start to live
in truth, then the behaviorswill just take care of
themselves.
You don't even need to startmodifying them.
But I think again, if you'renot paying attention to those
deeper beliefs that are drivingit, you will keep spinning your
tires trying to modify behavior,not realizing that it's the
(14:19):
beliefs that are driving thisthing.
And if you drive your attentionthere, you'll get much better
results thing.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
And if you drive your attention there, you'll get
much better results.
Yeah, I love that.
Identity is such a crucial,crucial part of that journey.
In fact, we have a retreatcoming up in October and our
theme is going to be on identity.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Just how important that is and on that journey,
that recovery journey.
So that's so good.
Well, I love that you guys doretreats.
It's one of the things thatreally stood out to me is you
guys do a lot of group.
There's a lot of like communalelements and connection embedded
into your solutions and that'sso important for the same thing
we were just talking about a fewminutes ago, right, aaron,
because we know that when youstay hidden, that's what allows
all of these misbehaviors tothrive and to continue and to
(15:03):
persist.
And it's really in.
It's in community where peopleare healed, it's in meaningful
connections and relationships.
And I've had this personalconviction because Deep Clean
was really built virtually andour team is virtual and I love
that.
I love that we're around theworld, that we've had clients
around the world as well, andwe'll continue to do that.
But we are making some majorshifts in the next little bit to
(15:24):
do a lot more in person, likeyou know, retreats and that sort
of thing, because there's justnothing de-shames like in-person
, face-to-face connection at aheart-to-heart level.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely no, I love that man.
The enemy is prowling, right,he prowls, he's looking for,
he's looking to devour.
Yeah, and you know, like a liondoes, and, and lions look for
the isolated, they look for themaimed, the weak.
You know, and that's and that's.
You know what the enemy doeswith isolation if, if, he can
get us isolated and wants us tobe isolated.
(15:58):
And the more isolated a man isand a woman, but you know, the
more isolated somebody is, themore vulnerable you know they
are, and he goes after thosevulnerable.
But you know, the more isolatedsomebody is, the more
vulnerable you know they are andhe goes after those vulnerable
places.
You know, I think when, whenJesus was coming out of the 40
day fast, the enemy attacks himat his most weakest place at
that time, and it was hunger.
(16:19):
The first temptation of Christwas around hunger, because that
was the biggest vulnerability hehad coming out of that
wilderness 40 days of fasting.
I'm starving, man, I haven'tdone a 40 day fast, but I can
imagine right.
And so the enemy straight forthat weakest area, like a lion,
you know, prowling and ready todevour.
(16:40):
So yeah, so true isolation ishuge.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Can I just jump on that really quick?
Sorry, I know you have otherquestions, but this is like.
I almost can't believe that youwent here, because this is when
we teach identity.
In DeClean we talk about thisexact scripture, because I have
an alternate theory to thisscripture.
So in Luke, chapter three,jesus gets baptized, the heavens
render and a voice comes sayingyou are my beloved son and you
(17:06):
are well pleased.
Luke 4,.
He's led by the spirit into thewilderness, exactly as he said.
You know, he's tempted for 40days and then the enemy catches
him in his weakness and tries totempt him and the first words
out of the enemy's mouth are ifyou are the son of God, command
these stones to become bread.
You know it's so interesting heare.
If you are the son of God,command these stones to become
bread.
You know it's so interesting hesays if you are the son of God,
(17:27):
questioning the very truth thatGod spoke about him.
You know, in the previouschapter.
You know, before he entered thewilderness and I think, I think
that's sometimes the thing wedon't realize is the enemy's
playing games.
He, sometimes the thing he'sdangling in front of you is not
really.
It's not the war.
It might be the battle, youknow, to turn these stones into
bread, but the actual war hereis for our identities, for who
we are, which is also whycommunity is so important.
(17:49):
I can tell you, for me, I wouldnot have the level of security
within myself, the level ofconfidence and not that I'm
perfect, but I've grown a lot ifit weren't for the community
and the people that I've hadaround me every step of the way
through my own recovery and wellbeyond that now, and I love.
That's why I love Jesus'response to the enemy in that
scripture, which is man shallnot live on bread alone, but by
(18:12):
every word that proceeds fromthe mouth of God.
And it's just such a goodmantra, rather, for us to live
by as well if we want to reallywalk in truth.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Yeah, oh gosh, man, that's so good, and I even go
back to you, know those wordsthat God does speak over him.
You know, and I think what a lotof people miss is that this is
before Jesus has done any of themiraculous, it's before he
realizes sort of God's agendafor mankind, right, like he just
(18:41):
is this carpenter apprentice,you know, like this boy who's
grown up, you know he hasn'tdone anything really amazing and
he's out of that water.
And this is my son.
I'm well pleased and it's like,well, he hasn't done anything
yet and you're welcome, and that, I really believe, is a
baseline identity for you, forme, for anyone listening to this
(19:04):
.
Like our baseline identity isthat we are sons and daughters
and that our father in heaven iswell pleased with us, before we
can ever do anything to earn it.
I mean, you think of what Jesusdid in the life he lived and
you're like man.
Well, of course, like God leftit.
No, like this is before he didany of that he was like, and
(19:26):
that is for you and that is forme, and that is for everybody
listening, that our baselineidentity begins with those words
that you are my son or daughterand in you.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
I am well pleased yeah no-transcript was really
(20:16):
trying to quit pornography, toseparate my behavior from my
identity, because I reallyfundamentally believed that I
simply was what I do and livingin sort of this performance
mindset and this whole idea thatyou know, god loves me
unconditionally the same way heloved his son before he
performed any miracles, exactlylike you stated, like that's
(20:37):
what really shook the ground ofthat foundation of wait a minute
, if Jesus was perfectly lovedbefore he really did any of his
more godly activities, likeperforming miracles and raising
the dead, then you know like who, who am I?
Who am I to question that kindof love of god and that that
that's a big deal it takes.
(20:57):
I think it takes a long time toreally to really let it do the
18 inch journey from your headto your heart.
But it's, yeah, it's, it's,it's so good, like, for me it
was, it was the thing thatchanged my entire trajectory.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Yeah, even while we were sinners, christ still died
for us.
Yeah, thank you, jesus man,gosh man, it's so good.
So, you know, for someonelistening, sathya, you know,
maybe they haven't stepped intoany sort of recovery journey.
They identify that you knowporn is a problem in their life.
(21:31):
What are some of the firststeps that you would, you know,
say to somebody you know to kindof take or to enter into
recovery?
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Everybody's different .
You know, I think if you'relistening to this and you know
that porn is in your life andyou know that you want it out, I
think that's the best place tostart is to acknowledge that you
want it out Because I thinkit's interesting.
You know, aaron, like I know alot of people, even people, like
I said, who will come up to meafter a conference or listeners
(22:01):
of our podcast or wherever whosay, yeah, you know, I get the
whole porn thing.
I know it's not great, but theymaybe are not.
They're not in that place wherethey're like okay, I actually
want some help.
I think if you want some help,the best thing I can do as, or
the best thing I can suggest asa starting point, is to get
another person involved, and whothat person is is gonna vary.
It depends on your situationand the options that you have.
(22:28):
But the biggest mistake I madethe first three years that I was
trying to quit porn was I didit alone and again it was sort
of that high achiever mentalityof I'm going to figure this out,
I'm going to have the beststory ever and then you know,
then I'll tell the world aboutmy struggles.
Not realizing that telling otherpeople about my struggles was
the solution to de-shaming,breaking out of the secrecy and
(22:48):
starting to actually get to moreof the roots of the issues.
So I think inviting people in isreally important and I think
you know even my own journey.
I started out just bringing onefriend in.
It was a close friend, somebodyI trusted.
It was actually really hard forme to even talk to God about it
because I felt so ashamed and Isort of had a distorted view of
him.
So I thought that if I reallyacknowledged how much I was
(23:09):
struggling with pornography, godwould be angry with me, you
know.
So it was easier for me tobring in a friend first, then
God, and then I mean truly thebest feeling happens in
community, and I think ifsomebody wants to start on that
journey, maybe the idea ofplugging into a community right
away sounds scary.
Some of you might hear that andgo yes, that's exactly what I
need, you know, let me do it andI would say go for it.
(23:29):
But I think the starting pointis to get at least one person in
who can be there with you andhelp you a little bit along the
way.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, if anyone's takinganything away from this, it's
going to be community, community, community.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Oh seriously.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Invite other people in, right, this is not a bro.
I got this, like you know,story after story after story is
bro.
You don't got this.
You need help.
We need, you know, matt carriers.
I think of the.
You know the guy that wanted togo before Jesus but couldn't,
you know, and and his friendscarry him on this mat.
(24:05):
You know they carry him, theyclimb with him and they care for
him, even at the top, likeyou're taking the roof apart.
You know you're going to makesure he's not falling off the
roof, right, they're caring forhim and they lower him in there,
right.
And so we need those matcarriers.
We need people in our lives whobecause the truth is, we all
end up on that mat.
You know, in some way, shape orform, financially, sexually,
(24:28):
broken, like we're, like we livein a broken world, we live in a
fallen world.
The enemy is relentless.
He wants to steal, kill,destroy and oh, by the way, he
doesn't stop, right, we needpeople that can be there to
support us, to lift us up whenwe can't lift ourselves up, and
so I love all the things you'resaying about just the importance
of community and all that's soimportant.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, well, like I said, I've had a conviction
about it, Like really justeverything we've done.
When I first started coachingpeople, I did one-on-one.
We outgrew that.
We started running groups outof necessity.
And then the first group call Iever ran, I just the
experiences was so different youknow the guys are kind of
making jokes with each other.
You can tell they're engaging alot more.
(25:11):
There's just there was somethingspecial about it and I vowed
after that first call I willnever do anything that doesn't
have some sort of communalelement.
I didn't want them to just getstuff from me, I wanted to get,
I wanted them to get help fromeach other and so, yeah, so we
have just continued to try tothink of ways to do that.
We actually are just launchinga new product now that is
(25:36):
literally just community-based.
It's just a chance forlike-minded dudes to be in
community, share openly witheach other, get our deep, clean
system, get coaching, all thatgood stuff.
But the real emphasis is likecommunity, just plug in, connect
with other guys, because Idon't think there's anything
else that's more powerful thanthat.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Yeah, absolutely, and we'll circle back to that at
the end and let you talk alittle bit more.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Oh sure yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Anything else too that you've got coming up or
that you're just really excitedabout.
So yeah, but so I know, for me,like in some of the work that I
do with individuals, you know,one of the biggest areas and I
think this is kind of getting atthe under the surface of the
iceberg type of stuff is thatthe emotional sort of immaturity
you know, or the you know, theability to you know be
(26:17):
empathetic, or do those you knowshow up differently than maybe
what they have you know forthemselves, but also for you
know their partners.
And so you know I'm curious,you know, just in like in the
work that you do with men, sothis gets into kind of being
strong leaders and emotionallyavailable.
You know partners, but how haveyou helped men to have maybe
(26:41):
some of those toughconversations with their spouse
or significant other or to growin those sort of emotional ways
in which maybe they've had somedeficits?
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Yeah, so okay, this is a layered question, but a
really, really good one.
It's interesting.
And just to back you up on whatyou said there a little bit,
because I scoured the researchquite a bit, my researcher hat
has never really come off frommy university days and there's a
fascinating study.
This was probably two or threeyears ago and they were paying
attention to how pathways in thebrain regarding empathy are
(27:15):
affected by people who viewpornography and, not
surprisingly, those pathwaysbasically started to shut off
and become inactive the morefrequently and the longer that
people viewed porn.
It was just an inherentbyproduct and I have a couple of
theories on why that is.
But I would say the embeddedmessage about pornography and
the consumption of pornographyis that it's all about you, it's
(27:37):
all about your needs, it's allabout your desires, it's all
about your wants and it's aboutyour pleasure.
And so I think porn kind ofdoes this weird programming to
us subconsciously we don't evenrealize it that basically tells
us you're more important thananyone else.
You know your sexual partner,your wife included.
So I think for somebody who'sstruggling with pornography and
(27:59):
you're feeling the emotionaldisconnect number one,
understand that there's probablyjust some shifts, even
physiologically that havehappened in your brain.
But I think the other part ofit is, if you're going to have
some conversations about it, youmight want to have a little bit
of intentionality behind it.
This is a really importantsubject.
It's very delicate and the wayit's not just that you have the
(28:21):
conversation, because that endof itself I think can take a lot
of convincing for guys.
A lot of guys sort of purposein their heart that they'll just
take this with them to thegrave and we would call that
concealing.
You know, and you want to justconceal as long as you can.
But I've discovered somethinginteresting about concealing
just after being in this spacelong enough now and helping
quite a few guys quitpornography.
Concealing is actually a myth.
(28:43):
There's no such thing asconcealing sexual misbehavior.
Concealing is really just stageone.
Stage two is called gettingcaught, and as long as you
conceal, it's really just amatter of time.
And so the guy who is listeningagain, I'm not trying to fear
monger and I'm not trying topush you into doing something
you don't want to do, but theconcealment strategy just
(29:07):
doesn't.
It doesn't work.
It always ends in a disaster.
But if you're willing to havethe conversation which I know is
where your question was leading.
There's a lot more hope Because,as weird as it might sound, you
know most of your interactionswith your spouse are either a
deposit or withdrawal.
Right, there's a relationshipbank account and we know the
good things that put depositsinto the accounts and we
(29:29):
probably know the not so goodthings, or the favors, or you
know having to be forgiven forsomething that kind of take a
withdrawal out and the amazingthing is that getting caught is
a withdrawal.
It's a major withdrawal.
I mean, that thing can wipe thebank account right out.
But being willing to have thatconversation an honest
conversation, confessional, ifyou will Confession is actually
(29:51):
yes, it's still withdrawal, butit's also deposit because you
chose to tell the truth and youchose to have some integrity by
not getting caught.
So, anyways, a lot of contextthere.
To actually answer your question, I think two things need to
happen if you're going to have aconversation with your partner.
Number one is you need to havea pretty decent understanding of
your own story Now.
(30:12):
You don't need to have it allfigured out I'm definitely not
suggesting that but for you tosimply a lot of guys just go
into this conversation and thinkthey just need to state some
facts, and that is usually moreharmful than it is helpful.
You have to understand a littlebit of your story, of what's
going on and why you're watching, probably knowing some details
like when did this start and howdid it evolve.
(30:32):
The better you understand yourstory, the better off you're
going to be.
The first pillar we teach guyswhen they do deep clean is build
self-awareness, understand yourinner world and your inner life
and gain an understanding ofthat.
And I would say the secondthing is you probably want some
guidance from somebody on how toreally do this conversation
well.
I mean, we even have people inour network that are disclosure
(30:54):
experts, and so we will refer tothem as well Just an
experienced, unbiased thirdparty who can facilitate that
conversation and do it reallywell, because we've seen this
conversation happen.
Do it really well Because we'veseen this conversation happen
and, admittedly, when I wasyounger, helping guys and I
didn't know as much as I do nowI would kind of help guys get
into the conversation and itwouldn't go over well and I
(31:16):
realized they weren't executingit properly.
You know, it was really on mypart, I wasn't teaching them
well, and so I think it's notjust that you have the
conversation, but it's that youdo it really well, and one
little maybe nugget that I thinkkind of puts all this together
is put yourself in her shoes,like if you're going to tell her
this devastating news.
(31:38):
You know a lot of guys it'slike they've had all the time to
think about it and process itand, you know, listen to this
podcast giving them a little bitof guidance on it, and so they
go in and they just kind of putit all out there, not realizing
like this is, this is, this islike shocking news, this is a
lot for your spouse to take in.
And so I think having someunderstanding and some again
like re-engaging that empathygoing into this process really
(32:00):
goes a long way, so that you'reyou're not just doing this so
that you can get the monkey offyour back.
You're actually doing it in away that could point things in
the right direction, towardshealing, growth and connection.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Yeah, yeah, that's really good man.
I mean we do disclosures hereat Regeneration Awesome.
And I, you know those are veryhard but very beautiful
processes and I think what's soimportant, especially for those,
you know, listening is justthat you know both are supported
.
It's support for both, becauseboth of us, or the guy, needs
support and and the spouse needssupport as well.
(32:35):
And so we're, you know, we'revery sort of, you know, just
mindful of, of the need.
And I ask guys all the time whenthey come in, you know and they
share, you know my wife foundout blah, blah, blah, you know,
and I'm like, okay, like, is shegetting support?
Does she have?
Because I think it's so, it'sso easy to kind of, you know,
(32:56):
maybe glaze over that, or but toeven help him.
See, hey, like this isn't evena moment for you to, in the
midst of all of this, to alsoencourage her to to get the help
that she needs, so that youguys as a, as a couple, can
navigate, because now there'slike you're healing, she needs
to heal and your relationshipneeds to heal.
(33:17):
So these, these threecomponents, and and again, like
with community or with othertrusted, maybe professionals,
you know, like that's it'seasier to step into that, and so
I think it's yeah, it's superimportant to you know that you
just don't walk sort of thatjourney alone.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
That's such a good point because the yeah, when
you're married, you know the twobecome one.
So if, if you have struggledwith pornography and you need to
get help and to heal, your wifeis part of that journey.
And, like you said, she's partof that journey in the sense
that, the same way you needsupport, she needs support and
she's likely going to go throughsome sort of journey of her own
(33:58):
.
You know, depending on, maybe,whether she does some betrayal
trauma therapy or recovery oreven something lighter than that
.
It's still there's a grievingprocess, there's a questioning
and a curiosity process whereyou wanna kind of try to connect
some dots and some previousincidents.
Like she goes through her ownprocess as well, and that's
actually a beautiful thing,because that's what allows
(34:18):
couples to come back strongerand better than ever.
It's that they both go on theirjourneys, you know, a little
bit together and probably alittle bit separate and apart in
parallel, and that's what kindof leads to the rebirth of a
really incredible marriage.
And we've seen this in so manyof our clients now I mean
clients who even got divorcedand got back together, because
they both went on their healingjourneys and the guy quit
(34:39):
pornography and he started toreally show genuine love and
genuine empathy, genuine empathyand care.
And you know the wife, the wiferesponded, the wife kind of
woke up again and and I thinkthat kind of stuff can happen
when this process is done.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Well, yeah, absolutely, and I think you know
to the individual, maybe that'sgoing through, maybe you know
you got caught and maybe youconfessed.
You know, I think confession isdefinitely better than getting
caught, but it's still hardeither way.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
It's still tough.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
New information, right, and there's wounds and
sort of this transfer of youknow, whether you call it power
or just information, right, youknow you're stepping into the
light and that's great, butyou're also illuminating some
really hard things.
And you know, when we dodisclosure work and I think
about couples, I think aboutlike the intimacy pyramid, and
so there's the, there's the youknow base layer of truth.
(35:28):
So guys that I work with oftenfeel like man.
I finally, you know, I've I'vesaid you know the truth,
everything's out there, you know, whether you know you got
caught or if it's through adisclosure or something, and
then it's almost like this, liketheir experience is this like
coming up for air, like whenyou've been craving a breath
underwater and you're like, oh,like I can breathe again, you
know, but it's like okay, andwith it, and that's real, you
(35:51):
know.
But now there's also this otherside too.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
Yeah, you just dumped your wife in the same water.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Exactly.
Yes, it's almost like you'rekind of holding her down with
your feet now that you'regetting a breath or something,
but and then you know thatsecond layer is safety and guys
want to bypass that.
They want to go like hey, I'vetold you the truth, can we go?
Can we go to the third layer,you know, which is trust.
Like I want to trust, you know,like and I don't know if you
see that with kind of guys thatyou work with, but this, this
(36:17):
safety element, is so important.
I think that's where the empathycomes in.
And I know in my own journey,you know, like you know when,
when I used to be askedquestions why from my wife, I, I
, like, I got super frustratedand it came out sideways and
such a better response would belike, you know, honey, I I don't
know why, I don't know theanswer to that, but I'm going to
(36:37):
work to find out and I thinkthat's so different and showing
up with some of that empathy andemotional maturity and it takes
some time to kind of get there.
But I think that's the movementand that's what you want to
move towards and see as you'rekind of trying to rebuild or
kind of you know those layers ofthe intimacy pyramid, or just
(36:58):
that relationship?
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Yeah, well, this is where what we were talking about
earlier, with kind of a rootsbased approach for a guy who's
in recovery, becomes veryrelevant here as well.
And this is where what we weretalking about earlier, with kind
of a roots-based approach for aguy who's in recovery, becomes
very relevant here as well,because it requires patience.
You know you really have toslow down and you have to
understand that your marriagehealing happens not just at the
pace that you quit pornography,but also at the pace that your
wife is able to trust again, andtrust is easily broken but it's
(37:23):
slowly rebuilt.
So that patience thing you'retalking about is a really big
deal.
And yes, guys, I think do havethat tendency.
Okay, I got off my chest.
Now you know everything.
Let's talk about some solutions, let's get things moving.
You know we can be very actionoriented and God made us that
way for a reason.
It's not a bad thing.
We just have to kind ofunderstand, you know, when to
(37:45):
tether it a little bit more, andI think the patient approach is
so important.
Just for maybe guys to hearthis a little bit differently,
the thing that a partnertypically is looking for when
there's been this kind ofbetrayal is they need to see
enough consistency over longperiods of time.
That's what actually breedstrust and it is consistency, of
course, with not watchingpornography and behaving upright
(38:11):
in that regard, but it's alsoconsistency at a character level
, you know, letting your yes beyes, your no be no, being rich
in love, slow to anger, you know.
The list goes on there and thatjust takes time.
You know, and I went through myentire story with pornography
happened as a single person.
But my wife and I had a verycomplex engagement.
You know, we buried fiverelatives during our engagement.
She was bedridden for most ofit.
(38:33):
There was something going on inher body that doctors didn't
know and I actually wound uppostponing our wedding date
because I didn't feel ready toget married with everything that
was going on.
It just felt like too much.
And it's not that I was out ofthe relationship, but I just.
I wanted to delay things and Iwanted to get a little bit more
clarity, especially on herhealth issue, but it felt to her
(38:55):
like betrayal, like it felt toher like why can't we just get
married with the way things areNow?
I'll shelf that discussion foranother day, but the point I
want guys to get is just a yearago.
I've been married five yearsnow.
So at around the four-year markmy wife said you know, I
finally feel like I have fulltrust in you and full confidence
(39:16):
that you're not gonna leave me.
I mean, it took that long.
That long, you know, we've beenmarried and again, I didn't
never threatened to leave themarriage or anything like that.
Her heart just needed to seeenough consistency over a long
enough period of time to fullybreathe again.
And it's not to say that everystory takes five years.
You and I both know this.
(39:38):
You can't put timelines on mostof this stuff.
It's so nuanced and individual.
But the point is you just haveto be patient and what you learn
as you accept how patient youhave to be, which is more
patient than you could probablyeven imagine.
What you learn is the actualreward is the journey.
It's not about the destination.
It's really about the processand the growth and that
(40:00):
endurance and that, thatcharacter.
And that endurance and thatcharacter and that fortitude
that gets forged in these longerenduring places.
That's really the actual rewardof this thing.
You just have to get a littlebit deeper into it before you
realize it.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Yeah, gosh, that's so good.
I just watched that new show onApple with John Krasinski.
It's kind of like a rip off.
National Treasure.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Yeah, I forget what it's called.
I know what you're talkingabout.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Yeah, it's escaping me, but there's a line that they
go back to time and time againand it is about the journey is
greater than sort of thattreasure at the end.
There's so much to take in likeabout that journey.
Then there is sort of the likethe end, you know thing they're
trying to find or, ultimately,you know, move towards.
(40:46):
So it's just interesting yeah,yeah, you bring that up and just
really reminds me of that.
Well, hey, just a couple morethings.
Like I'm curious if there is asuccess story that sort of
stands out to you like from yourcoaching and and work with men
many, many.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
You know there's many , but I'm thinking of the
conversation we had today and Ihave one story in mind that I
think will tie this whole thingtogether.
So this man's name is Franklin.
He's shared his full story withus on our podcast and it's on
our page, so he has no issueswith me using his name.
Franklin was married to hiswife, rhonda, for many years I'm
forgetting now, I think it wasaround a decade and it was the
(41:28):
classic.
You know.
They kind of ran into roommatesyndrome a little bit Not a lot
of emotional connection Triedsome therapy and some counseling
and Rhonda one day just decidedshe was done.
She couldn't really connectwith him Now, she didn't know
this, but he was addicted topornography and that was a huge
reason for the discord and thedisconnect and a lot of the
issues that were driving thatwere in their marriage.
(41:48):
Rather, so they divorce.
Franklin kind of has this man Ineed to get my life in order and
he gets a lot of his life inorder, but he still continues to
struggle with pornography.
And Rhonda, his wife, one day,probably about eight, nine years
later, calls him and says Ithink I left some stuff at the
house.
I've looked high and low for it.
(42:09):
I'm pretty sure it's there, canyou check?
And he looks around because hestill was in the house that they
lived in when they were marriedand he says, yeah, actually I
do have it here.
She says, perfect, I need tocome by and grab it.
There's some stuff in therethat I need.
They start talking.
They haven't seen each other inyears and it's just very.
It's just cordial, you know,and it's more pleasant than both
of them were expecting.
And she leaves and goes home.
(42:31):
But little do they know.
Like that kind of catalyzesthis dating phase again, getting
to know each other again, andthey end up getting remarried
and a year into their secondmarriage together.
Now Franklin, who is, you know,the high achieving professional
, has all the accolades.
He's now much more accomplishedin his career, has done some
work as well from their divorce.
(42:52):
But it surfaces that this guyhas a porn addiction and she
basically says, like hey, likeyou got to take care of this,
because we know how much thisdrove issues in our first
marriage, and so she wasgracious about it.
But she was also, you know,affirmative, like hey, you gotta
do something about this.
(43:12):
So that's when he came to us.
And the really interesting thingabout Franklin is all the stuff
we talked about today in therealm of self-awareness, you
know, which for us is kind ofabout understanding the inner
life, the thoughts and theemotions and the beliefs and
those key elements that aregoing on underneath the surface,
usually driving a lot of ourbehavior.
(43:34):
He was totally numb to thosebecause the way he learns to
achieve professionally was toignore your feelings, ignore,
you know, those bad thoughts inyour head and kind of just
positive psychology and let'spush this thing forward.
And so for him, buildingself-awareness, all the stuff we
talked about today, that wasthe unlock for him.
And he still went through ourentire process.
(43:56):
Like I said, we have threesteps.
But the amazing thing is, ifanyone on listening wants to go
watch the video of FranklinSharer's story, he doesn't just
share it himself, but Rhondajoins him and they testify
together of how not only did hequit porn, but he began to
rebuild trust in his marriage,to show his wife hey, I'm not
(44:17):
the person that you divorced andI'm not even the person that
maybe came into this marriage.
I'm a different person.
And I asked Rhonda, I said whydidn't you leave him, like you
already left him once.
You had this history and evenstatistically, the divorce stats
all say you know, if you'vedivorced once, you're much more
likely to divorce again.
So it just from me, from myperspective, everything said she
(44:40):
probably just should havedivorced the guy again, or that
she would have not, maybe thatshe should have said she
probably just should havedivorced the guy again, or that
she would have not, maybe thatshe should have.
And I asked her, I said why didyou stick around?
And she said all I know is thathe needed to know I believed in
him, if he was really going tochange.
And I think for me that storyhas just always stuck out.
(45:02):
You know, there's that famousadage that behind every great
man there's an even greaterwoman.
Totally, and I think you know,whether you're listening to this
today as a man who's talkingabout pornography, or maybe as a
woman who feels betrayed bytheir spouse or their partner
who's watching.
I just want you to know thatyou can actually affect a change
in his recovery, in hisrecovery.
And to the men who arelistening to this, I just want
(45:23):
you to know that you know,whether you're young or old,
whether you've had affairs,whether you bought sex or you
know we've had clients who'vejust been addicted to porn for
50, 60 years.
Some of them, you know, they'rein their latter years of life
and they're pursuing freedom.
Freedom is not just possiblefor you, but it's probable for
you when you do the right things, when you have the system that
(45:44):
helps you get to the roots, whenyou have a community like we
discussed, those things areinevitable.
Speaker 1 (45:51):
You really just have to stick with them long enough.
Yeah, man, and it's never toolate.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
No, never, never, never.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
You know, to get started on that journey and to
embark on, you know that deeperhealing and wholeness in your
life.
Gosh, that's good.
Sathya.
What would you say to your 18year old self, if, if you could
go back and tell him one thing,what would you?
What would you say to youngSathya?
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Don't do it alone.
Yeah, whatever you do, do justdo it with other people.
One other person, a coupleother people.
You want to join a full-oncommunity.
You know, if you want to grow,if you want to heal, if you want
to become the person god madeyou to be, don't do it alone
yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
I mean, I love that and because that's we're not
made to be alone, no, made forcommunity.
You know it's in.
You know, if we're made in hisimage, part of that image is he
exists eternally in a communityof three Father, son, right and
we're made in his image.
(47:01):
So we have put inside of usthis longing, even if we don't
realize it for others andsometimes we don't see that
because we feel like the recluseor we feel that deep isolation.
But at the core again, thetruth of who we are and who
we've been made to be, aremembers of a body, a part of a
(47:24):
community.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
That's such a good point.
Yeah, I was just going to addreal quick you know, paul wrote
in first Corinthians 15, verse33, I believe it is that bad
company corrupts good character.
You know, and yeah, I just, Iwas just thinking about what you
said.
It's so true.
It was just making me realizelike, as an 18 yearold, I could
have done everything I wanted todo on my own, and it might have
(47:47):
even worked for a little bit.
But without the right supportto nurture it, to sustain it and
to help it continue to grow,somewhere along the way I would
have fallen off.
And it's that good company thatjust goes such a long way to
getting good results and goodcharacter and becoming those
people that God made us to be.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Yeah, absolutely so good.
So, Theo, I kind of want togive you a little bit of the
last word, in a sense.
You mentioned earlier that youguys have sort of a new product,
a group sort of thing kind ofcoming out or launching.
I'd love for you just to beable to share a little bit more
about that, or any otherdevelopments or projects that
you're particularly excitedabout that are in the works for
(48:30):
you guys and man Within.
Speaker 2 (48:32):
Yeah.
So I have two things that Iwould recommend to your audience
specifically.
Yeah, we do have Deep CleanInner Circle is the name of what
we've just launched, and thatis really for men who want to
plug into a community.
They want to get our deep cleansystem.
They want coaching from me andmy head coach, but they want it
at an affordable rate, becauseif you were going to work with
us more closely, then it's agreater financial investment.
But DeepClean Inner Circle isreally a great place to start
(48:55):
and there's incredible,incredible stories coming out of
that community.
But what I would actually likemost of your audience to do is
to just go check out my podcast.
But what I would actually likemost of your audience to do is
to just go check out my podcast.
Check out it's called the manWithin, the man Within Podcast
and that's a really goodstarting point.
Just see if you like ourcontent, see if the message
lands and if you get some valuefrom that, then that's probably
a good sign.
(49:15):
That Deem Clean Inner Circlewould be another good step to
take afterwards.
But go check out the podcastfirst, see if it makes sense.
It's available on all majorplatforms and go check out the
podcast first see if it makessense.
It's available on all major,major platforms and you know we
have.
I'm always blown away at thekind of guests that that we're
able to land.
After this interview with you,aaron, I'm going to be
interviewing john eldridge, andso there's, there's, you know,
those kinds of great people onthere.
But then I also do teachingsegments, little 10, 12 minute
(49:36):
snippets to just give people alittle injection for the day.
Because, let's not kidourselves, you know, this is a
daily struggle and we need helpdaily.
We need, we need the word ofGod, we need the truth, we need
encouragement, we need storiesof inspiration in our ears and
in our hearts daily, and that'sthe goal of the podcast.
That's why we do, you know,four to five episodes a week.
So it's men within on all majorplatforms.
So good.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
So the yeah, so it's like quivers, you know, like all
the, all these resources.
You know I'd rather be moreresource than under resource.
Yeah, that's right, so good,yeah.
So, man, it has been a delightto have you on becoming whole
today and just say thank you somuch for the work that you're
doing, for your story and justfor your, your voice and your
leadership in this space.
Man, this was a really funconversation.
(50:25):
So thanks again, man, forsharing your leadership in this
space.
Man, this was a really funconversation.
So thanks again, man, forsharing your heart with us on
Becoming Whole.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
Oh hey, I love what you guys are doing, man.
Thanks for letting me be partof it today.
It was a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
Yeah, god bless you, man, you too.
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