November 11, 2025 • 37 mins
What if the questions we ask about sex are too small? We take on role-play, masturbating while thinking about a spouse, and the habits modern culture treats as normal—and then we lay out a bigger, braver vision for intimacy that actually heals.
We start with the allure of role-play. Playfulness and communication are good, but pretending to be someone else can fracture the connection by elevating a mask over the person you vowed to love.
From there, we tackle solo sex “about” your spouse. It feels faithful, but fantasy edits reality and guarantees availability in ways a real spouse cannot. Training our bodies on images—yes, even of a spouse—forms us toward self-directed pleasure rather than mutual self-gift.
Throughout, we return to the telos of sex in the Christian story: union, openness to life, and joy woven together by self-giving love. Bodies speak a vow—all of me for all of you—and that vow matures as we’re known more deeply over time. The surprising payoff? Pleasure can grow richer when performance gives way to presence. If you’ve used role-play or fantasy, this is not a verdict; it’s an invitation to something fuller, kinder, and more durable.
If this resonates, share the episode with a friend, subscribe for more thoughtful conversations on sexuality and wholeness, and leave a review with the one question you want us to tackle next.
Resources mentioned in this Episode:
- Heart of Dating Podcast: Heart of Dating Podcast Featuring Host Kait Warman | Heart of Dating
An Invitation for our annual women's retreat.
Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole:
- Email us questions! info@regenerationministries.org
👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
All right, friends, it's time for some tough
questions for marriagesexuality.
I'm James Craig.
I'm one of the coaches here atRegen and director of projects.
I'm here with Josh Glazer, ourexecutive director.
And I don't know if you all knowthis, but in the show notes,
there's an email.
And if there's not usually therewill be in this episode, there's
an email that you can reach outto to send us in your questions.
(00:22):
So we actually have kind of asuite of listener questions,
tough questions around marriage.
Josh, can I just start byreading them out and we'll dive
right into them?
SPEAKER_01 (00:30):
Yeah, too.
SPEAKER_00 (00:32):
All right.
So uh I'm gonna share them allat once and we're just gonna
we're gonna talk about these.
I want to encourage you, ifyou're not married, um that's
okay.
These are some things you'reprobably wondering about that
we're gonna be pondering and andtrying to, you know, pull out a
deep Christian theology, theanswers to.
But question number one, is roleplaying in marriage okay?
(00:54):
Question number two, is it okayto masturbate to thoughts of my
spouse?
And then question three is kindof going further with that
question too.
But my wife says it's okay aslong as I'm thinking about her,
or my wife has given mepermission because I'm if I'm
thinking about her, this thismight keep she said it might
(01:16):
help keep me faithful.
Um so on and so forth.
So those are our toughquestions, Josh.
I think I think we've got got itin for us uh today.
These are our tough questions.
And so um, as we get into theselisteners, just want to
encourage you, um, just reflectwith the Lord, like reason with
him, pray into these with him.
These are not things thatscripture super clearly
(01:38):
definitively addresses with asingle proof text.
Okay.
So we're gonna do some deepertheology based in scripture
still, based in 2,000 years ofchurch teaching.
But this is not like John 538says role playing's not okay in
marriage.
This is not how the Bible isdesigned, although it does
answer a lot of our deepquestions.
(01:58):
So, Josh, how do you how do youbegin thinking about these
questions?
Is role-playing okay and is itokay to masturbate thoughts of
my spouse?
SPEAKER_01 (02:06):
Yeah, I uh so let me let's just start for anybody
listening who's like, what'swhat do you mean role playing?
What does that mean?
I think the listener's probablygetting after the idea of
role-playing a sexual scene withtheir spouse, which has become
kind of a a popularise thing.
I mean, even there a sitcom thatI've I've seen uh the two of the
(02:29):
main characters who were datingor married would often role-play
a specific scene.
They'd kind of it was a sceneout of a movie that they both
liked, and they'd or I guess thehusband liked, and they'd they'd
role-play this scene in their intheir in their sexual
relationship, or role-play thatthose were the they thus those
are the people they were.
Um so here's what I here's whatI like.
(02:51):
I like I like the playfulness.
I like that the husband and wifein the situation, um, if the
husband and wife in thesituation are talking about
their sexual life and the thingsthat they like, the things that
they appreciate about the other.
Uh I like that they're thatthey're communicating about
this.
A lot of couples don't.
And so there's something healthyand positive about that.
(03:14):
Um something healthy, uhpotentially healthy about the
playfulness between them, andthat they that sex isn't just
all serious business, um, butthat they can be, they can
delight together.
Where where I get concernedabout the role play idea is that
(03:34):
um they're pretending to beother people or other
characters.
And from our vantage point, thatdoesn't work well for their
relational connectedness ingeneral, and it won't work well
on a on a kind of Christianethical perspective because sex
is designed by God to be anexpression of love for a
(03:56):
specific spouse or betweenspecific spouses.
And so if you're pretending tobe somebody else, I just kind of
wonder what that does to yourown perspective in in relation
to like who are you loving?
Who are you with?
And what does that communicateto your spouse about where your
joy comes from and where yourlove is directed?
Uh, are they in themselves notenough?
Uh so that's where my brain goesinitially.
(04:17):
What what about you?
What what how does that strikeyou?
SPEAKER_00 (04:21):
I'm taken right away to something I listened to
recently.
Uh, my wife sent me an episodefrom a Christian podcast called
The Heart of Dating.
Uh, you heard of that, Josh?
You heard of the heart ofdating?
Okay.
I haven't heard too much aboutit.
I believe the woman is nowmarried, actually, because she
was on with her husband.
But I think for years she wastrying to figure out dating in
our culture.
So I imagine she has a lot ofgood stuff.
(04:41):
And we'll send a we'll put alink to them in the show notes
if you want to check out thisepisode.
But the husband said at onepoint during the episode that
our types, and what I mean bytypes, like what we're sexually
attracted to, is always rootedin our brokenness.
I was like, that's a strongstatement.
And maybe we need to temper it alittle bit and say it's often or
(05:03):
usually, but this idea of likewe kind of are imprinted by
early sexual experiences, andwe're often drawn back to things
that we might have sexualizedover the years.
And so I immediately think aboutthat.
I'm like, what is it inrole-playing?
What is it in acting out a scenefrom a favorite movie or certain
types of characters or or jobsor whatever?
(05:27):
What is it about role-playinginto those things that is
arousing?
And is there something actuallyrooted in your story, in my
story, in whoever's feelingthese desires, is there
something rooted in our storythat actually set us up, kind of
imprinted a sexual archetypeonto us?
I know I've walked with guys,Josh, that um certain things
(05:50):
that might not seem verytraumatic, but memories that we
keep going back to in certainscenarios, we keep coming back
to them because they're still soaroused by these things that are
not sexual in nature.
So for example, if someone'sreally attracted or aroused by
the idea of, you know, uhservice people helping save
(06:13):
them, right?
Is it possible there's actuallylike a root back further back
in?
And I know for the guy that I'mthinking of, there is a memory
that again didn't seem likeparticular nothing abusive or
particular happened, but forsome reason, the overwhelming
nature of the memory has hasleft them with that kind of
imprint.
(06:33):
And so I I'm kind of first drawnto that idea of story.
Like, where is where is this inyour story?
And I believe like a lot of sextherapists, perhaps they're
well-meaning, and maybe eventhey they identify as Christian,
they'll they'll encourage peopleto go back to like, well, what
you know, what attracts you inand and let's go back to those
(06:53):
kind of initial things.
But as I as I heard in the Heartof Dating podcast, that's not
actually necessarily rooted injust kind of a benign, you know,
I'm just attracted.
It's actually often rooted instory, like things that have
happened to us, things thatwe've done or have latched onto.
SPEAKER_01 (07:10):
I love the direction you're taking that because it
because just beyond the kind oflike the morality of the
question, you're getting intolike real care for one another's
hearts.
Like, what's happening in yourheart that you want to play this
out in this in thisrelationship, this scene, this
character, um, this sexualexcitement?
(07:33):
What's what's what's coming upin your story that that that
part of there's something inyour heart that's untended?
And and wouldn't it be morefruitful?
Can we get into that so we cantend to one another in a way
that's loving and caring andhealing and restorative rather
than just perpetuating itthrough this this role play?
(07:55):
I mean, I think you know thatsome of what you're digging into
is is so much stuff that we'vethat we've benefited from Jay
Stringer's work aroundrecognizing that our fantasies
connect to some wound in ourpast.
Our fantasies of preference, ourour uh sexual arousal template
can be connected to some woundsin our past.
And so the invitation to becurious about that, why, why is
(08:16):
that stirring up for me?
And I found that so helpful inso many areas of my own life,
like even outside of sexualfantasy, like why am I drawn
today to want to watch this typeof movie?
I'm not talking about like asexually erotic movie, even, but
like, why why an action movietoday where the the hero is is
so powerful?
(08:37):
Well, often if I look at my dayor my week or my experience,
myself, I'm feeling reallydisempowered today, actually.
I'm feeling really ineffective.
And the fact that um Ethan Huntin in Mission Impossible can can
accomplish the impossible, likeman, that that appeals to
something inside of me.
And so not that there's anythingnecessarily wrong with watching
(08:58):
that movie, but what if my whatif the needs of my heart
continue to go untended?
And can my marriage and my mostintimate relationships be a
space where that part of me istended to as opposed to glossed
over or diverted into somesexual fantasy or story?
SPEAKER_00 (09:14):
Yeah, uh we just had our uh annual weekend retreat,
it is incredible.
And and um Blake on our staff.
Do you remember this quote,Josh?
I'm not gonna be able to get itright.
Something about to the extentthat we've processed through our
story, we're gonna be impactedby it.
Do you remember that quote?
SPEAKER_01 (09:29):
I was talking about like like if we can until we can
clearly articulate our story, oronly to the extent that we can
that we can truthfully tell ourstory.
Truthfully tell, let's go.
Yeah.
So we need to truly tell ourstory in order to be truly
healed.
And I think I think there's somuch truth in that.
Yeah.
He led us through a reallypowerful exercise.
(09:51):
It was great.
Shameless plug for the awakenedretreat next year.
Yeah, if you're a womanlistening to this, shameless
plug for our sacred by designretreat that's coming up very,
very soon.
We'll have more information tosay about that later.
SPEAKER_00 (10:02):
But yeah, a great place for receiving some of the
care that that we so so need andare so looking for.
And so I want to go back thoughto what you were originally
saying, Josh, that there'ssomething though that's
happening when when we're goingthrough the lens of role play
where we might actually be kindof missing our spouse.
Like so it brings me to thisdeeper question, and and this
(10:25):
we'll probably weave in throughthe episode.
But what is sex really for inmarriage?
Because if sex is aboutmaximizing my pleasure, if sex
is just for fun, just for fun.
I'm not saying it shouldn't befun, but if it's just for fun,
then why wouldn't I roleplay ifthat's the way why why wouldn't
I try to get my spouse toroleplay if that's the type of
fantasy that most arouses me?
(10:47):
So what is sex really for?
Like how why why are we bothkind of uh not you know pro this
idea of roleplay?
SPEAKER_01 (10:57):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a really importantquestion.
And um, I think you know, postuh the widespread acceptance of
contraception in our culture, uhsex has has largely become known
as just a uh an avenue forpleasure.
(11:18):
And um prior to that, I thinkpeople would at least
acknowledge, like, well, sex isfor procreation, because it just
naturally that's the directionit goes.
And so, and then historicallyChristianity would also add to
that that sex is unitive, thatthis is this is a man and a
woman, uh hopefully husband andwife becoming one flesh with
(11:41):
another in a very physical,literal way.
Their bodies are joiningtogether.
As Dr.
Todd White wrote in his book,Mirosexuality, there's only one
organ in the human person thatdoesn't operate by itself apart
from another, and that's thesexual organ for men and for
women.
Uh Christopher West puts it thisway, they don't even make sense.
Like you can't look at the amale genitalia or female
(12:03):
genitalia and understand what itmeans without the other.
And these all point to the factthat that sex is designed to be
unitive.
So if I were to summarize all ofthat, procreative, unitive,
pleasure or joy, underneath allof that, or uh maybe a heading
over all that, I would say isthat um men and women are
(12:23):
designed in God's image andlikeness.
And our sexuality, our sexualselves, our physical bodies, are
designed to be an expression ofself-giving love.
All of me given for all of you,all of me given for your
benefit, for your good.
And so I think the uh that's inessence what we're doing when we
(12:44):
when we marry another is we'resaying, I'm giving you
everything.
I'm giving you my stuff, mytime, the rest of my life, um,
my future, my my hopes for myfamily.
The old marriage vows would say,forsaking all others, which I
think was such a beautifulexpression of, I know there are
lots of other possibilities.
There are lots of other avenueshow I could spend the rest of my
(13:05):
life.
I forsake it all for you becauseI see in you that much value,
that much worth.
I give you all of me, I'mbringing all of me for your
good.
And if the marriage bed is justan extension of that, if sex is
designed to be an extension ofthat, then the husband and wife
come, they unclothe themselves,and that's just this beautiful
(13:26):
expression of I give all of me,I'm here, all of me.
I'm not holding anything back.
I give all of me for you, foryour good.
And that's a different messagethan you know, can you pretend
to be, you know, this person inthis movie, and I'll pretend to
be this person in this movie, sothat we can kind of have a
(13:46):
thrill.
There's there's something verydifferent about those two.
And I'd suggest that the former,all of me given for you, for
your good, is a much moredignifying, um, honoring way to
approach the marriage bed thanthan than role-playing.
SPEAKER_00 (14:03):
I'm reminded as you're speaking, Josh, um, some
deep truths, by the way.
I think we swim in it so much wecan forget like these are these
are beautiful truths in theChristian faith, but yeah, um,
very old in scripture is thisidea of yada.
Uh, our listeners might haveheard us talk about this before.
Ya d a, the Hebrew word to know,is the word that is used to
(14:27):
include sex, but beyond sex aswell.
And so there's this deep sensein the Hebrew worldview, the
Christian worldview, Jesus'worldview, that sex is about
truly knowing and being known.
And that actually really sticksout to me too.
I'm thinking of Kurt Thompson,Josh.
He talks a lot in his booksabout he's a Christian
(14:49):
psychiatrist and he just talks alot about the power of being
known in the in the place ofweakness and darkness.
And we need God's light.
We need love in all of thoseplaces.
And so one of the challenges orissues that we would take with
with this idea of role-playingis we're forsaking some of that.
(15:11):
We're actually, let me put itpositively, or uh let me put it
another way, we're missing someof the possibility of being
known.
We're missing out on some of ifI'm dressed up a certain way or
asking my wife to pretend I'mI'm some sort of uh you know,
action hero or whatever, I'mmissing out on actually being
known in those vulnerableplaces.
And this is just such a paradigmshift, Josh.
(15:33):
Even as I'm saying it, I'm like,this is so counter to our
pornographied, uh, sexualrevolutionified worldview that
we have in 2025.
Like this idea that actuallywe're meant to be known in these
places instead of running, usingsex to run from being known.
I imagine that's counter fromany of our listeners, including
(15:53):
myself.
SPEAKER_01 (15:54):
That's beautiful.
I love that.
I love I love bringing you da inhere.
And I it makes me think.
So I'm I'm 53, uh soon to be 54this year, later this year.
And uh my wife and I are we'regetting older.
You know, we're not the theyoung pups we once were.
And uh, and what you're framingup there, what we're trying to
talk about here, is really itcontinues the invitation for
(16:15):
intimacy and for knowing oneanother and giving ourselves to
one another continues.
It doesn't diminish with age, itactually just extends.
Like, you know, the wrinkles onmy face weren't there when we
got married, but my wiferecognizes them, and she
probably even knows some of thehardship that I've walked
through that that might havecaused some of those wrinkles.
And I for her, and so the theknowing and our laying down our
(16:37):
lives for the good of the other,rather than looking at her, her
looking at me like, how muchpleasure can you give me?
If if our goal in sex is howmuch pleasure can you give me,
then it leads to this place ofas we get older, well, then
that's just diminished, uh,potentially.
But ironically, I think I thinkthat's maybe some of the mess of
the culture.
Ironically, uh, I think theopposite is true.
(16:58):
And this is crazy to say, but Ithink the the couples who walk
together and lay down theirlives for each other and know
each other this way, over time,and sex isn't always easy, but
over time, the intimacy becomessweeter in a way and deeper in a
way.
Um I can testify, I think thatthere are ways faithful marriage
to one woman for so long doeschange my perspective on level
(17:22):
of temptation.
Because that there's part of methat's like, nah, nobody else
can give me what my wife cangive me, because we're the she's
the only one who's lived throughuh all that we've lived through
together.
Nobody can be that for me.
And that only comes through aperspective of all of me given
for you, all of you given forme, and that that ya, you know,
(17:42):
we're we know each other.
Um that old phrase, like youknow, you can't make old
friends.
Uh same thing's true inmarriage.
You you can't you you you can'tmarry someone today you've been
married to for 40 years, youknow.
Um I I long for more of that.
Hey, one of the things I I thatdoes strike me, I don't want to
uh I don't want to gloss forwhat I just said, but I also
(18:03):
want to add that the otherreality, I think, maybe not in
all cases, but in many cases,and it's worth mentioning that
when when one spouse is actingasking the other to role-play
something, it's it's often not amutual thing.
Uh in our experience, I thinkoften it's one spouse saying,
Can you do this for me?
SPEAKER_00 (18:22):
And similar to when uh when a husband or or a wife
says, Hey, can we watchpornography together?
Yeah.
It's actually ultimately forthat person's, you know, selfish
sexual gratification.
SPEAKER_01 (18:33):
Right.
And often role-playing itself isa can you role-play this sexual
scene that I've watched.
And so it further kind of, Ithink, has the has a capacity to
uh to to feel on some leveldegrading for one spouse.
And ultimately, if it'sdegrading for one spouse, it's
degrading for both.
But um where you're askingsomeone to pretend to be someone
(18:54):
else rather than themselves.
It's not just a matter of youacting something as someone
different.
You're also asking them to besomeone different.
And the message there is can bereally, really degrading.
Like you're not enough.
I don't want you to be you rightnow.
I want you to be someone else.
Um, however, you however playfulyou kind of doctor that up, I
think at the end of the day, uh,I don't know that that serves a
(19:15):
couple well.
And I think it can be ultimatelydegrading.
SPEAKER_00 (19:18):
Yeah, it ultimately doesn't even get after if we're
dealing with our own shame.
Like, I don't really want to beknown.
I don't feel that hot orattractive if I'm really known
by this person who's known mybiggest weaknesses for 20 years
or however long.
Yeah.
So there's an element of like,is there an invitation?
There's actually an invitation.
Is there a place of shame whereI'm struggling to be known?
(19:39):
And by the way, if you'restruggling with this and you're,
let's just say you're like, oh,I see where they're coming from.
I can see how this might bemissing the boat.
Like, this is an invitation oflove as well.
Yeah.
If you've been struggling, thisis an invitation of love.
Where are you actuallystruggling to receive love in
yourself?
Where are you struggling to loveyour spouse?
Because friends, we all struggleto love.
(20:01):
That's why we need a savior.
If any of us loves perfectly, umthat means I think we've
probably arrived at atperfection because everything
boils down to that self-givinglove.
Uh, at least that's how it looksto me in the New Testament.
SPEAKER_01 (20:15):
Yeah, James, that's good.
And I I appreciate you bringingthat too, because we we don't
want you, if you're listening,you're like, well, oh man, my my
husband and I, or my wife and I,we've actually been role-playing
and it's been a real source offun for us, or you know, we've
maybe we've enjoyed it, or maybeI've asked my spouse to do this,
and I'm not sure how much theyenjoy it.
Where this is an invitation foryou to grow closer to each
(20:36):
other, like talk through thistogether, maybe listen to this
podcast together and and andtake a look with the Lord.
You know, Lord, is do you havesomething more for us?
Are we missing something?
Um, that we and we could laythis down to know each other
better.
This is not a uh a judgystatement.
This is, I mean, I hope you hearthis there's real hope in this
(20:58):
for something even deeper thatmeets some some needs that God
has woven into this that thatyou're meant to meet here.
SPEAKER_00 (21:04):
Absolutely.
So, in a similar vein, let'slet's talk more in depth about
this idea of masturbating aboutone's spouse.
How do you immediately want toanswer that, Josh?
Even if let's just say it's ahusband asking this and the
wife's like, you can do thisbecause I want you to be
faithful and at least you'rethinking about me.
Like, how would you respond ifyou're in the coaching session
(21:25):
with that husband?
SPEAKER_01 (21:26):
Yeah, again, let me start with some positives.
I I appreciate the heart to befaithful.
I appreciate the heart not tohave eyes for someone else, not
to lust after someone elseoutside of your marriage.
I think that that can be apositive step for people in the
journey to begin recognizing,okay, look, I'm out of control.
(21:46):
Um, maybe this is one step I cantake.
But I I I do have some concernsabout it if it's if the view is
like this is an acceptable placeto land.
Uh, and I'm and I'm also notjust to be clear, I'm not
prescribing that as a step.
I'm just saying, you know, ifyou're if you see that as a
step, if it's been prescribedfor you, you know, I I can see
the the good heart behind that.
(22:09):
Uh, but I think in some ways,back to the thing we were just
talking about, like um in in asimilar way to if we're asking a
spouse to dress up or act likesomebody that they're not, to
masturbate to the thought ofone's wife, for example, um, is
not the same as being with one'swife.
(22:30):
Because our thoughts are, Imean, our brains are really
powerful, and our capacity to tohold the scene, to direct the
scene, to rewind the scene, toplay the scene, to adjust or
adapt how a a wife or a husbandwould respond, uh, even even to
conceive of the fact or the ideathat a that a husband or wife is
(22:53):
available right now for thesexual interaction when in fact
they are not.
They're not in the room, they'renot available, uh, they're sick,
they're they're dealing withsomething on their own.
SPEAKER_00 (23:05):
They're pregnant, they're pregnant, they're
they're actually that this is avery real example, they're
hurting in their genitalsbecause they need they need a
rest.
And oh my gosh, what am I gonnado now if I don't, you know,
quote, finish or have an orgasm.
But there can be pain tofidelity and to recognizing like
(23:27):
this is a this is a high call.
This is a high call to say mysexual release, my sexual
engagement, my sexual pleasureis all in the context of this
unitive relationship.
It's all for my spouse to somedegree.
It's all um, and as Josh wasarguing earlier, you might even
look into some of the argumentsof it should at least be open to
(23:49):
some degree to procreation tonew life.
I know that many of our, youknow, Protestant listeners, too,
we're we're two of which Joshand I are both um, you know, I
know you don't love that wordProtestant, actually, Josh, but
but to those who don't like havenever given it deep thought the
way maybe Roman Catholics have,is it possible that actually our
(24:09):
sexuality isn't always meant tobe this self-giving thing?
And so I would I would ask thatto frame up like, is it okay to
masturbate the thoughts of myspouse?
Well, are you actuallyrecognizing the telos, the
telos, the the purpose, the endgoal?
That's the the Greek word telos.
(24:30):
Um the end goal of my sexualityis what?
If it is my own pleasure, if itis, you know, getting pleasure
so that I don't act unfaithful,are we actually falling short of
that that incredible beautifulgoal?
You could probably say it somuch better.
So fill in the fill in the gapsthere, Josh.
SPEAKER_01 (24:48):
No, it's really good.
I mean, let's let's go back tothe example of the spouse who
there's something physical goingon, so sex is not an option
right now or it's painful, orum, let's say there's a husband
wife in recovery from infidelityand the and one of the spouses
is just not does not trust theother.
Um I think there's anopportunity here.
(25:10):
If we're if our if theoverarching aim of sex is to be
a subcategory of self-givinglove for the sake of the other,
then can I lay down my sexualdesire in this moment to be with
you where you are?
So, you know, you're you don'ttrust me right now, you don't
(25:31):
have sex.
Well, okay.
Then I won't either.
Um, you're it's it's painful foryou right now.
Um well, guess what?
It you know, like I can then Ican deal with some pain of
saying no to my sexual desire.
Yeah, you're and you're notgonna explode, you're not gonna
die.
SPEAKER_00 (25:48):
You're not gonna die.
SPEAKER_01 (25:49):
Yeah, I know there are some crazy, like, you know,
yeah, you need to have sex.
Uh it's uh it's just healthy.
Like to repress that isunhealthy.
Like, no, no.
I mean to repress, sure.
To abstain, to walk throughseasons of like, oh, I wish I
could have sex and it I I feeldesirous and I'm saying no, um,
yeah, you're not gonna die.
(26:11):
You might you might have a hardtime falling asleep.
You might have a hard time withyour thoughts.
Yeah, join join the club, like alot.
Like we um, we've been there.
Yeah.
So in the same way, if I come tothe marriage bed, and if let's
just make it more generic, if ahusband and wife come to the
marriage bed and they're bothamorous and they're and they're
ready and they desire each otherand they they're in a good space
and loving each other, and theygive their bodies one to another
(26:33):
in that sexual embrace.
Well, in a moment where one ofthose spouses is not able to
enter into that sexual embracefor location or sickness or
whatever else, can can the samestatement be true?
Okay.
I can give my body to you in thesexual embrace, and I can give
my body to you in abstainingfrom the sexual embrace.
I am yours.
(26:54):
I forsake all others, includingall fantasies for you.
I want to be in this with you.
SPEAKER_00 (27:00):
And one of the things Josh is saying there is
it is a fantasy.
When we're imagining our spousein a sexual way, there is a
fantasy element because why howcan I say that with confidence?
Because it's not the person, theliving, breathing person in
front of me.
It's the image of that person.
It's one way I can think of itis you know, God's really big
(27:21):
against like worshiping an imageinstead of the true God.
Now, this is a little bitdifferent than what Catholic and
Eastern Orthodox people aretrying to do with images or
trying to look through them askind of an eye, they literally
call it an icon to the true God.
But it can't quite work the sameway in masturbation and fantasy
(27:42):
because we're we're not um one,it's not meant to be an act of
worshiping our spouse, which iskind of what it is, right?
It's like worshiping my ownpleasure, worshiping my spouse's
attractiveness or whatever, butit's actually not seeing the
real person.
It's not loving the imagebearer, it's loving kind of more
the image, the way that thisimage can arouse me.
(28:02):
And by the way, your spouse inyour fantasy might be willing to
do things or whatever that yourspouse in reality is not willing
or able to do.
And so that's another way itkind of goes back to that whole
how has our brain been trained?
If it's been trained throughpornography, am I have I learned
that this is the way to get thepleasure that that I feel like I
(28:25):
need?
SPEAKER_01 (28:26):
Yeah, right.
unknown (28:27):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (28:27):
I mean, like the we're physical creatures, which
means that we have we are in onelocation at one time.
And this is the first time I raninto this was years and years
ago.
Um, this this really godlyChristian man I knew talked
about how his wife was okay withhim masturbating when he was on
business trips, uh, as long ashe was thinking about her, and
it was it was a way for him toremain faithful.
(28:48):
And uh, so the the the twothoughts about that, one is
well, but your wife is not withyou.
And so, in order for you toreally be loving your wife, is
to acknowledge like your wife,the thought of your wife is with
you, but she's not.
Like, um, and then the second tofollow that up, and this uh I'm
glad you bring up just kind ofhow we train ourselves on porn
or train ourselves on fantasy,like it's actually valuable to
(29:09):
grow in faithfulness, to grow insexual integrity, to practice
the reality that that yourspouse, assuming you have one,
is just one person in onelocation with limitations.
That is a part of how we grow insexual faithfulness.
We subject ourselves to thereality that our spouse is who
he or she is, not someone else,not a fiction in our in our
(29:32):
minds, not all that we wish inevery moment.
Uh and I think over the longhaul, that enables us to more
and more freely say, yeah, thisis my body given for you, not
for my imagining or my desire ofwho or where you might be, but
for you yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (29:49):
Well, and for this well, can I just say for the
single listeners, some some ofyou might be in the mindset of
maybe you're dating, maybeyou're engaged, maybe you were
married at one point, but it'sworth mentioning that.
Sex is not available on demandwhen you're in marriage.
Right.
Um the um rude awakeningsinclude things like uh women's
(30:11):
if I'm speaking to men right nowin particular, women's arousal
takes more time to build up.
Men's arousal can happen almostinstantaneously.
That's very different than whatpornography seems to show.
Right, right.
And so on and so forth.
So if you're single and you'relike, man, if I could just get
married and have sex as often asI masturbate, that really might
not be on the table, right?
(30:32):
For all the reasons we said andones we're not even thinking of.
Can you love the spouse in frontof you?
And again, this is invitational.
This is, I'm looking, I can lookat myself basically in the
metaphorical mirror throughZoom.
Like, can I grow in that agapelove?
Because I wouldn't say probablyany of us, again, that's like
this gradient, like over time,God, make me that self-giving
(30:54):
kind of man.
Make me the kind of man, by theway, and I love getting, I got
this from Christopher West,Josh.
Make me the kind of man who canabstain, who can fast is the
language he uses.
He's like, hey, he's a Catholic,and so he's like, if you if you
don't want to have kids, uh, youcan be pretty confident you're
not gonna have kids in certainwindows.
That's why they call it familyplanning.
(31:15):
But even in those windows, andalso when you're unable to have
sex, whether it's because you'reyou're not in a place to have a
baby or other other elements,can you fast?
Can you actually take take abreak instead of you know, kind
of what he would call um uhusing contraception as a way to
(31:38):
like cut off our uh what's itcalled, like our livelihood or
like our um creative creativepower, so to speak, co-creative
power with God.
Can you fast instead?
Can you abstain instead?
Because that's actually, ifyou're not married yet, that's
going to be required in marriagemore often than you might
realize.
I think I heard you sayrecently, Josh, that like you're
(32:00):
talking to someone and you'relike, I don't know if he
realizes that I'm probablyhaving a lot less sex than he
is, and he's not a married manand he's trying to get it
together and follow Jesus, butlike it really might not be as
often.
And yet, you know, Paul doestalk about this idea.
Don't go away permanently fromyour spouse.
If you are going to take sexualbreaks and they're kind of
intentional and longer form, doit in prayer and other forms of
(32:24):
fasting.
Like, if there's reasons yourmarriage is having trouble,
there actually could be aninvitation to the spiritual
discipline and the power thatcomes with literally fasting and
praying, Lord, restore us, bringus new life.
I know my wife and I have triedthis in part in response to some
of the betrayal she'sexperienced from me.
Like, what does it mean for usto take a break, fast, and pray
(32:47):
so that we're seeing God emptyus out of our own striving and
fill us with his actual power,his his spiritual food.
SPEAKER_01 (32:56):
That's beautiful.
I love it.
Yeah, and I and I don't knowwhere I just want to say this.
I I think in some ways we'repointing to an ideal.
And I I recognize that.
Uh and I think some people wouldmight might have some contention
with with it, what we're sayingbecause of that.
(33:17):
Um, you know, I mean, even theeven the question itself, isn't
it better that I fantasize aboutmy spouse than that I act out
with somebody else?
But but I also so so I I I dowant listeners to hear it
invitationally andaspirationally, like this is
worth aiming for, worth seekingthe Lord about, worth seeking to
grow in.
(33:37):
And where you falter along theway, God's grace is there for
you, and He's He He's willing towalk with you every step of the
way.
And at the same time, like I Ialso don't want to pull down the
ideal.
Like there we're created to loveas God loves.
And God, if we're followers ofJesus, we have God's spirit in
us.
(33:58):
And so I think there's sometimeswe can cut ourselves short of
that aspirational vision justbecause it's difficult.
But I I really I would say to tolisteners, like, there's there
is real good here.
And and I'm not I'm not sayingany of this.
I don't think either of us aresaying any of this out of a
place of like moral uh pruderyor or legalism, as much as
(34:20):
there's actually some real joyand some real good in this.
And it works very differentlythan uh uh than than than
fantasy and and masturbation do.
SPEAKER_00 (34:31):
So beautiful.
Well, we gotta wrap up fortoday.
Josh, I want to ask you to prayin just a moment, but I I just
want to share this last word.
I said the Greek word earlier oftelos, right?
End goal or purpose.
It's similar.
It's actually telos is the rootfor telios, which is what Jesus
says in the Sermon on the Mountbe perfect as your heavenly
(34:52):
father is perfect.
Another way to translate teliosis to be mature or to be whole.
Becoming whole, baby.
Uh this is the invitation.
This is the invitation.
We're becoming whole.
This is not a shame-based, uh,you know, that's not the heart
behind this podcast, whether youstruggle or don't struggle in
these particular ways, is torecognize that Jesus actually
(35:16):
wants more for us.
He wants more for us than for usto medicate our places of
immaturity that we don't knowhow to deal with, with
masturbation, or to hide behindthe costume and the
role-playing.
He actually wants us, all of us,to be who we are made to be.
So that's the invitation,friends.
Uh, Josh and I are on that samejourney.
(35:36):
That's why this is not we becamewhole podcasts, this is becoming
whole podcasts.
So, Josh, could you pray for ourlisteners?
SPEAKER_01 (35:43):
Yeah.
Jesus, uh, thank you that youcame with grace and truth.
And thank you that you are thegreat bridegroom who gave
yourself completely for the sakeof your bride.
Thank you, Lord, for the waythat you poured your life out,
even through pain and sufferingand death for our sake.
Lord, help us to grow in thatkind of love for one another and
(36:05):
for those of us who are married.
Help us to grow in that kind oflove for our spouses.
And where we falter and fail andstruggle along the way, Lord, we
look back to you and receiveanew from you your love for us,
your grace for us, your helpalong the way.
Thank you, Lord Jesus.
We pray in your name.
Amen.
SPEAKER_00 (36:21):
Amen.
All right, friends, it's time for some tough
questions for marriagesexuality.
I'm James Craig.
I'm one of the coaches here atRegen and director of projects.
I'm here with Josh Glazer, ourexecutive director.
And I don't know if you all knowthis, but in the show notes,
there's an email.
And if there's not usually therewill be in this episode, there's
an email that you can reach outto to send us in your questions.
(00:22):
So we actually have kind of asuite of listener questions,
tough questions around marriage.
Josh, can I just start byreading them out and we'll dive
right into them?
SPEAKER_01 (00:30):
Yeah, too.
SPEAKER_00 (00:32):
All right.
So uh I'm gonna share them allat once and we're just gonna
we're gonna talk about these.
I want to encourage you, ifyou're not married, um that's
okay.
These are some things you'reprobably wondering about that
we're gonna be pondering and andtrying to, you know, pull out a
deep Christian theology, theanswers to.
But question number one, is roleplaying in marriage okay?
(00:54):
Question number two, is it okayto masturbate to thoughts of my
spouse?
And then question three is kindof going further with that
question too.
But my wife says it's okay aslong as I'm thinking about her,
or my wife has given mepermission because I'm if I'm
thinking about her, this thismight keep she said it might
(01:16):
help keep me faithful.
Um so on and so forth.
So those are our toughquestions, Josh.
I think I think we've got got itin for us uh today.
These are our tough questions.
And so um, as we get into theselisteners, just want to
encourage you, um, just reflectwith the Lord, like reason with
him, pray into these with him.
These are not things thatscripture super clearly
(01:38):
definitively addresses with asingle proof text.
Okay.
So we're gonna do some deepertheology based in scripture
still, based in 2,000 years ofchurch teaching.
But this is not like John 538says role playing's not okay in
marriage.
This is not how the Bible isdesigned, although it does
answer a lot of our deepquestions.
(01:58):
So, Josh, how do you how do youbegin thinking about these
questions?
Is role-playing okay and is itokay to masturbate thoughts of
my spouse?
SPEAKER_01 (02:06):
Yeah, I uh so let me let's just start for anybody
listening who's like, what'swhat do you mean role playing?
What does that mean?
I think the listener's probablygetting after the idea of
role-playing a sexual scene withtheir spouse, which has become
kind of a a popularise thing.
I mean, even there a sitcom thatI've I've seen uh the two of the
(02:29):
main characters who were datingor married would often role-play
a specific scene.
They'd kind of it was a sceneout of a movie that they both
liked, and they'd or I guess thehusband liked, and they'd they'd
role-play this scene in their intheir in their sexual
relationship, or role-play thatthose were the they thus those
are the people they were.
Um so here's what I here's whatI like.
(02:51):
I like I like the playfulness.
I like that the husband and wifein the situation, um, if the
husband and wife in thesituation are talking about
their sexual life and the thingsthat they like, the things that
they appreciate about the other.
Uh I like that they're thatthey're communicating about
this.
A lot of couples don't.
And so there's something healthyand positive about that.
(03:14):
Um something healthy, uhpotentially healthy about the
playfulness between them, andthat they that sex isn't just
all serious business, um, butthat they can be, they can
delight together.
Where where I get concernedabout the role play idea is that
(03:34):
um they're pretending to beother people or other
characters.
And from our vantage point, thatdoesn't work well for their
relational connectedness ingeneral, and it won't work well
on a on a kind of Christianethical perspective because sex
is designed by God to be anexpression of love for a
(03:56):
specific spouse or betweenspecific spouses.
And so if you're pretending tobe somebody else, I just kind of
wonder what that does to yourown perspective in in relation
to like who are you loving?
Who are you with?
And what does that communicateto your spouse about where your
joy comes from and where yourlove is directed?
Uh, are they in themselves notenough?
Uh so that's where my brain goesinitially.
(04:17):
What what about you?
What what how does that strikeyou?
SPEAKER_00 (04:21):
I'm taken right away to something I listened to
recently.
Uh, my wife sent me an episodefrom a Christian podcast called
The Heart of Dating.
Uh, you heard of that, Josh?
You heard of the heart ofdating?
Okay.
I haven't heard too much aboutit.
I believe the woman is nowmarried, actually, because she
was on with her husband.
But I think for years she wastrying to figure out dating in
our culture.
So I imagine she has a lot ofgood stuff.
(04:41):
And we'll send a we'll put alink to them in the show notes
if you want to check out thisepisode.
But the husband said at onepoint during the episode that
our types, and what I mean bytypes, like what we're sexually
attracted to, is always rootedin our brokenness.
I was like, that's a strongstatement.
And maybe we need to temper it alittle bit and say it's often or
(05:03):
usually, but this idea of likewe kind of are imprinted by
early sexual experiences, andwe're often drawn back to things
that we might have sexualizedover the years.
And so I immediately think aboutthat.
I'm like, what is it inrole-playing?
What is it in acting out a scenefrom a favorite movie or certain
types of characters or or jobsor whatever?
(05:27):
What is it about role-playinginto those things that is
arousing?
And is there something actuallyrooted in your story, in my
story, in whoever's feelingthese desires, is there
something rooted in our storythat actually set us up, kind of
imprinted a sexual archetypeonto us?
I know I've walked with guys,Josh, that um certain things
(05:50):
that might not seem verytraumatic, but memories that we
keep going back to in certainscenarios, we keep coming back
to them because they're still soaroused by these things that are
not sexual in nature.
So for example, if someone'sreally attracted or aroused by
the idea of, you know, uhservice people helping save
(06:13):
them, right?
Is it possible there's actuallylike a root back further back
in?
And I know for the guy that I'mthinking of, there is a memory
that again didn't seem likeparticular nothing abusive or
particular happened, but forsome reason, the overwhelming
nature of the memory has hasleft them with that kind of
imprint.
(06:33):
And so I I'm kind of first drawnto that idea of story.
Like, where is where is this inyour story?
And I believe like a lot of sextherapists, perhaps they're
well-meaning, and maybe eventhey they identify as Christian,
they'll they'll encourage peopleto go back to like, well, what
you know, what attracts you inand and let's go back to those
(06:53):
kind of initial things.
But as I as I heard in the Heartof Dating podcast, that's not
actually necessarily rooted injust kind of a benign, you know,
I'm just attracted.
It's actually often rooted instory, like things that have
happened to us, things thatwe've done or have latched onto.
SPEAKER_01 (07:10):
I love the direction you're taking that because it
because just beyond the kind oflike the morality of the
question, you're getting intolike real care for one another's
hearts.
Like, what's happening in yourheart that you want to play this
out in this in thisrelationship, this scene, this
character, um, this sexualexcitement?
(07:33):
What's what's what's coming upin your story that that that
part of there's something inyour heart that's untended?
And and wouldn't it be morefruitful?
Can we get into that so we cantend to one another in a way
that's loving and caring andhealing and restorative rather
than just perpetuating itthrough this this role play?
(07:55):
I mean, I think you know thatsome of what you're digging into
is is so much stuff that we'vethat we've benefited from Jay
Stringer's work aroundrecognizing that our fantasies
connect to some wound in ourpast.
Our fantasies of preference, ourour uh sexual arousal template
can be connected to some woundsin our past.
And so the invitation to becurious about that, why, why is
(08:16):
that stirring up for me?
And I found that so helpful inso many areas of my own life,
like even outside of sexualfantasy, like why am I drawn
today to want to watch this typeof movie?
I'm not talking about like asexually erotic movie, even, but
like, why why an action movietoday where the the hero is is
so powerful?
(08:37):
Well, often if I look at my dayor my week or my experience,
myself, I'm feeling reallydisempowered today, actually.
I'm feeling really ineffective.
And the fact that um Ethan Huntin in Mission Impossible can can
accomplish the impossible, likeman, that that appeals to
something inside of me.
And so not that there's anythingnecessarily wrong with watching
(08:58):
that movie, but what if my whatif the needs of my heart
continue to go untended?
And can my marriage and my mostintimate relationships be a
space where that part of me istended to as opposed to glossed
over or diverted into somesexual fantasy or story?
SPEAKER_00 (09:14):
Yeah, uh we just had our uh annual weekend retreat,
it is incredible.
And and um Blake on our staff.
Do you remember this quote,Josh?
I'm not gonna be able to get itright.
Something about to the extentthat we've processed through our
story, we're gonna be impactedby it.
Do you remember that quote?
SPEAKER_01 (09:29):
I was talking about like like if we can until we can
clearly articulate our story, oronly to the extent that we can
that we can truthfully tell ourstory.
Truthfully tell, let's go.
Yeah.
So we need to truly tell ourstory in order to be truly
healed.
And I think I think there's somuch truth in that.
Yeah.
He led us through a reallypowerful exercise.
(09:51):
It was great.
Shameless plug for the awakenedretreat next year.
Yeah, if you're a womanlistening to this, shameless
plug for our sacred by designretreat that's coming up very,
very soon.
We'll have more information tosay about that later.
SPEAKER_00 (10:02):
But yeah, a great place for receiving some of the
care that that we so so need andare so looking for.
And so I want to go back thoughto what you were originally
saying, Josh, that there'ssomething though that's
happening when when we're goingthrough the lens of role play
where we might actually be kindof missing our spouse.
Like so it brings me to thisdeeper question, and and this
(10:25):
we'll probably weave in throughthe episode.
But what is sex really for inmarriage?
Because if sex is aboutmaximizing my pleasure, if sex
is just for fun, just for fun.
I'm not saying it shouldn't befun, but if it's just for fun,
then why wouldn't I roleplay ifthat's the way why why wouldn't
I try to get my spouse toroleplay if that's the type of
fantasy that most arouses me?
(10:47):
So what is sex really for?
Like how why why are we bothkind of uh not you know pro this
idea of roleplay?
SPEAKER_01 (10:57):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a really importantquestion.
And um, I think you know, postuh the widespread acceptance of
contraception in our culture, uhsex has has largely become known
as just a uh an avenue forpleasure.
(11:18):
And um prior to that, I thinkpeople would at least
acknowledge, like, well, sex isfor procreation, because it just
naturally that's the directionit goes.
And so, and then historicallyChristianity would also add to
that that sex is unitive, thatthis is this is a man and a
woman, uh hopefully husband andwife becoming one flesh with
(11:41):
another in a very physical,literal way.
Their bodies are joiningtogether.
As Dr.
Todd White wrote in his book,Mirosexuality, there's only one
organ in the human person thatdoesn't operate by itself apart
from another, and that's thesexual organ for men and for
women.
Uh Christopher West puts it thisway, they don't even make sense.
Like you can't look at the amale genitalia or female
(12:03):
genitalia and understand what itmeans without the other.
And these all point to the factthat that sex is designed to be
unitive.
So if I were to summarize all ofthat, procreative, unitive,
pleasure or joy, underneath allof that, or uh maybe a heading
over all that, I would say isthat um men and women are
(12:23):
designed in God's image andlikeness.
And our sexuality, our sexualselves, our physical bodies, are
designed to be an expression ofself-giving love.
All of me given for all of you,all of me given for your
benefit, for your good.
And so I think the uh that's inessence what we're doing when we
(12:44):
when we marry another is we'resaying, I'm giving you
everything.
I'm giving you my stuff, mytime, the rest of my life, um,
my future, my my hopes for myfamily.
The old marriage vows would say,forsaking all others, which I
think was such a beautifulexpression of, I know there are
lots of other possibilities.
There are lots of other avenueshow I could spend the rest of my
(13:05):
life.
I forsake it all for you becauseI see in you that much value,
that much worth.
I give you all of me, I'mbringing all of me for your
good.
And if the marriage bed is justan extension of that, if sex is
designed to be an extension ofthat, then the husband and wife
come, they unclothe themselves,and that's just this beautiful
(13:26):
expression of I give all of me,I'm here, all of me.
I'm not holding anything back.
I give all of me for you, foryour good.
And that's a different messagethan you know, can you pretend
to be, you know, this person inthis movie, and I'll pretend to
be this person in this movie, sothat we can kind of have a
(13:46):
thrill.
There's there's something verydifferent about those two.
And I'd suggest that the former,all of me given for you, for
your good, is a much moredignifying, um, honoring way to
approach the marriage bed thanthan than role-playing.
SPEAKER_00 (14:03):
I'm reminded as you're speaking, Josh, um, some
deep truths, by the way.
I think we swim in it so much wecan forget like these are these
are beautiful truths in theChristian faith, but yeah, um,
very old in scripture is thisidea of yada.
Uh, our listeners might haveheard us talk about this before.
Ya d a, the Hebrew word to know,is the word that is used to
(14:27):
include sex, but beyond sex aswell.
And so there's this deep sensein the Hebrew worldview, the
Christian worldview, Jesus'worldview, that sex is about
truly knowing and being known.
And that actually really sticksout to me too.
I'm thinking of Kurt Thompson,Josh.
He talks a lot in his booksabout he's a Christian
(14:49):
psychiatrist and he just talks alot about the power of being
known in the in the place ofweakness and darkness.
And we need God's light.
We need love in all of thoseplaces.
And so one of the challenges orissues that we would take with
with this idea of role-playingis we're forsaking some of that.
(15:11):
We're actually, let me put itpositively, or uh let me put it
another way, we're missing someof the possibility of being
known.
We're missing out on some of ifI'm dressed up a certain way or
asking my wife to pretend I'mI'm some sort of uh you know,
action hero or whatever, I'mmissing out on actually being
known in those vulnerableplaces.
And this is just such a paradigmshift, Josh.
(15:33):
Even as I'm saying it, I'm like,this is so counter to our
pornographied, uh, sexualrevolutionified worldview that
we have in 2025.
Like this idea that actuallywe're meant to be known in these
places instead of running, usingsex to run from being known.
I imagine that's counter fromany of our listeners, including
(15:53):
myself.
SPEAKER_01 (15:54):
That's beautiful.
I love that.
I love I love bringing you da inhere.
And I it makes me think.
So I'm I'm 53, uh soon to be 54this year, later this year.
And uh my wife and I are we'regetting older.
You know, we're not the theyoung pups we once were.
And uh, and what you're framingup there, what we're trying to
talk about here, is really itcontinues the invitation for
(16:15):
intimacy and for knowing oneanother and giving ourselves to
one another continues.
It doesn't diminish with age, itactually just extends.
Like, you know, the wrinkles onmy face weren't there when we
got married, but my wiferecognizes them, and she
probably even knows some of thehardship that I've walked
through that that might havecaused some of those wrinkles.
And I for her, and so the theknowing and our laying down our
(16:37):
lives for the good of the other,rather than looking at her, her
looking at me like, how muchpleasure can you give me?
If if our goal in sex is howmuch pleasure can you give me,
then it leads to this place ofas we get older, well, then
that's just diminished, uh,potentially.
But ironically, I think I thinkthat's maybe some of the mess of
the culture.
Ironically, uh, I think theopposite is true.
(16:58):
And this is crazy to say, but Ithink the the couples who walk
together and lay down theirlives for each other and know
each other this way, over time,and sex isn't always easy, but
over time, the intimacy becomessweeter in a way and deeper in a
way.
Um I can testify, I think thatthere are ways faithful marriage
to one woman for so long doeschange my perspective on level
(17:22):
of temptation.
Because that there's part of methat's like, nah, nobody else
can give me what my wife cangive me, because we're the she's
the only one who's lived throughuh all that we've lived through
together.
Nobody can be that for me.
And that only comes through aperspective of all of me given
for you, all of you given forme, and that that ya, you know,
(17:42):
we're we know each other.
Um that old phrase, like youknow, you can't make old
friends.
Uh same thing's true inmarriage.
You you can't you you you can'tmarry someone today you've been
married to for 40 years, youknow.
Um I I long for more of that.
Hey, one of the things I I thatdoes strike me, I don't want to
uh I don't want to gloss forwhat I just said, but I also
(18:03):
want to add that the otherreality, I think, maybe not in
all cases, but in many cases,and it's worth mentioning that
when when one spouse is actingasking the other to role-play
something, it's it's often not amutual thing.
Uh in our experience, I thinkoften it's one spouse saying,
Can you do this for me?
SPEAKER_00 (18:22):
And similar to when uh when a husband or or a wife
says, Hey, can we watchpornography together?
Yeah.
It's actually ultimately forthat person's, you know, selfish
sexual gratification.
SPEAKER_01 (18:33):
Right.
And often role-playing itself isa can you role-play this sexual
scene that I've watched.
And so it further kind of, Ithink, has the has a capacity to
uh to to feel on some leveldegrading for one spouse.
And ultimately, if it'sdegrading for one spouse, it's
degrading for both.
But um where you're askingsomeone to pretend to be someone
(18:54):
else rather than themselves.
It's not just a matter of youacting something as someone
different.
You're also asking them to besomeone different.
And the message there is can bereally, really degrading.
Like you're not enough.
I don't want you to be you rightnow.
I want you to be someone else.
Um, however, you however playfulyou kind of doctor that up, I
think at the end of the day, uh,I don't know that that serves a
(19:15):
couple well.
And I think it can be ultimatelydegrading.
SPEAKER_00 (19:18):
Yeah, it ultimately doesn't even get after if we're
dealing with our own shame.
Like, I don't really want to beknown.
I don't feel that hot orattractive if I'm really known
by this person who's known mybiggest weaknesses for 20 years
or however long.
Yeah.
So there's an element of like,is there an invitation?
There's actually an invitation.
Is there a place of shame whereI'm struggling to be known?
(19:39):
And by the way, if you'restruggling with this and you're,
let's just say you're like, oh,I see where they're coming from.
I can see how this might bemissing the boat.
Like, this is an invitation oflove as well.
Yeah.
If you've been struggling, thisis an invitation of love.
Where are you actuallystruggling to receive love in
yourself?
Where are you struggling to loveyour spouse?
Because friends, we all struggleto love.
(20:01):
That's why we need a savior.
If any of us loves perfectly, umthat means I think we've
probably arrived at atperfection because everything
boils down to that self-givinglove.
Uh, at least that's how it looksto me in the New Testament.
SPEAKER_01 (20:15):
Yeah, James, that's good.
And I I appreciate you bringingthat too, because we we don't
want you, if you're listening,you're like, well, oh man, my my
husband and I, or my wife and I,we've actually been role-playing
and it's been a real source offun for us, or you know, we've
maybe we've enjoyed it, or maybeI've asked my spouse to do this,
and I'm not sure how much theyenjoy it.
Where this is an invitation foryou to grow closer to each
(20:36):
other, like talk through thistogether, maybe listen to this
podcast together and and andtake a look with the Lord.
You know, Lord, is do you havesomething more for us?
Are we missing something?
Um, that we and we could laythis down to know each other
better.
This is not a uh a judgystatement.
This is, I mean, I hope you hearthis there's real hope in this
(20:58):
for something even deeper thatmeets some some needs that God
has woven into this that thatyou're meant to meet here.
SPEAKER_00 (21:04):
Absolutely.
So, in a similar vein, let'slet's talk more in depth about
this idea of masturbating aboutone's spouse.
How do you immediately want toanswer that, Josh?
Even if let's just say it's ahusband asking this and the
wife's like, you can do thisbecause I want you to be
faithful and at least you'rethinking about me.
Like, how would you respond ifyou're in the coaching session
(21:25):
with that husband?
SPEAKER_01 (21:26):
Yeah, again, let me start with some positives.
I I appreciate the heart to befaithful.
I appreciate the heart not tohave eyes for someone else, not
to lust after someone elseoutside of your marriage.
I think that that can be apositive step for people in the
journey to begin recognizing,okay, look, I'm out of control.
(21:46):
Um, maybe this is one step I cantake.
But I I I do have some concernsabout it if it's if the view is
like this is an acceptable placeto land.
Uh, and I'm and I'm also notjust to be clear, I'm not
prescribing that as a step.
I'm just saying, you know, ifyou're if you see that as a
step, if it's been prescribedfor you, you know, I I can see
the the good heart behind that.
(22:09):
Uh, but I think in some ways,back to the thing we were just
talking about, like um in in asimilar way to if we're asking a
spouse to dress up or act likesomebody that they're not, to
masturbate to the thought ofone's wife, for example, um, is
not the same as being with one'swife.
(22:30):
Because our thoughts are, Imean, our brains are really
powerful, and our capacity to tohold the scene, to direct the
scene, to rewind the scene, toplay the scene, to adjust or
adapt how a a wife or a husbandwould respond, uh, even even to
conceive of the fact or the ideathat a that a husband or wife is
(22:53):
available right now for thesexual interaction when in fact
they are not.
They're not in the room, they'renot available, uh, they're sick,
they're they're dealing withsomething on their own.
SPEAKER_00 (23:05):
They're pregnant, they're pregnant, they're
they're actually that this is avery real example, they're
hurting in their genitalsbecause they need they need a
rest.
And oh my gosh, what am I gonnado now if I don't, you know,
quote, finish or have an orgasm.
But there can be pain tofidelity and to recognizing like
(23:27):
this is a this is a high call.
This is a high call to say mysexual release, my sexual
engagement, my sexual pleasureis all in the context of this
unitive relationship.
It's all for my spouse to somedegree.
It's all um, and as Josh wasarguing earlier, you might even
look into some of the argumentsof it should at least be open to
(23:49):
some degree to procreation tonew life.
I know that many of our, youknow, Protestant listeners, too,
we're we're two of which Joshand I are both um, you know, I
know you don't love that wordProtestant, actually, Josh, but
but to those who don't like havenever given it deep thought the
way maybe Roman Catholics have,is it possible that actually our
(24:09):
sexuality isn't always meant tobe this self-giving thing?
And so I would I would ask thatto frame up like, is it okay to
masturbate the thoughts of myspouse?
Well, are you actuallyrecognizing the telos, the
telos, the the purpose, the endgoal?
That's the the Greek word telos.
(24:30):
Um the end goal of my sexualityis what?
If it is my own pleasure, if itis, you know, getting pleasure
so that I don't act unfaithful,are we actually falling short of
that that incredible beautifulgoal?
You could probably say it somuch better.
So fill in the fill in the gapsthere, Josh.
SPEAKER_01 (24:48):
No, it's really good.
I mean, let's let's go back tothe example of the spouse who
there's something physical goingon, so sex is not an option
right now or it's painful, orum, let's say there's a husband
wife in recovery from infidelityand the and one of the spouses
is just not does not trust theother.
Um I think there's anopportunity here.
(25:10):
If we're if our if theoverarching aim of sex is to be
a subcategory of self-givinglove for the sake of the other,
then can I lay down my sexualdesire in this moment to be with
you where you are?
So, you know, you're you don'ttrust me right now, you don't
(25:31):
have sex.
Well, okay.
Then I won't either.
Um, you're it's it's painful foryou right now.
Um well, guess what?
It you know, like I can then Ican deal with some pain of
saying no to my sexual desire.
Yeah, you're and you're notgonna explode, you're not gonna
die.
SPEAKER_00 (25:48):
You're not gonna die.
SPEAKER_01 (25:49):
Yeah, I know there are some crazy, like, you know,
yeah, you need to have sex.
Uh it's uh it's just healthy.
Like to repress that isunhealthy.
Like, no, no.
I mean to repress, sure.
To abstain, to walk throughseasons of like, oh, I wish I
could have sex and it I I feeldesirous and I'm saying no, um,
yeah, you're not gonna die.
(26:11):
You might you might have a hardtime falling asleep.
You might have a hard time withyour thoughts.
Yeah, join join the club, like alot.
Like we um, we've been there.
Yeah.
So in the same way, if I come tothe marriage bed, and if let's
just make it more generic, if ahusband and wife come to the
marriage bed and they're bothamorous and they're and they're
ready and they desire each otherand they they're in a good space
and loving each other, and theygive their bodies one to another
(26:33):
in that sexual embrace.
Well, in a moment where one ofthose spouses is not able to
enter into that sexual embracefor location or sickness or
whatever else, can can the samestatement be true?
Okay.
I can give my body to you in thesexual embrace, and I can give
my body to you in abstainingfrom the sexual embrace.
I am yours.
(26:54):
I forsake all others, includingall fantasies for you.
I want to be in this with you.
SPEAKER_00 (27:00):
And one of the things Josh is saying there is
it is a fantasy.
When we're imagining our spousein a sexual way, there is a
fantasy element because why howcan I say that with confidence?
Because it's not the person, theliving, breathing person in
front of me.
It's the image of that person.
It's one way I can think of itis you know, God's really big
(27:21):
against like worshiping an imageinstead of the true God.
Now, this is a little bitdifferent than what Catholic and
Eastern Orthodox people aretrying to do with images or
trying to look through them askind of an eye, they literally
call it an icon to the true God.
But it can't quite work the sameway in masturbation and fantasy
(27:42):
because we're we're not um one,it's not meant to be an act of
worshiping our spouse, which iskind of what it is, right?
It's like worshiping my ownpleasure, worshiping my spouse's
attractiveness or whatever, butit's actually not seeing the
real person.
It's not loving the imagebearer, it's loving kind of more
the image, the way that thisimage can arouse me.
(28:02):
And by the way, your spouse inyour fantasy might be willing to
do things or whatever that yourspouse in reality is not willing
or able to do.
And so that's another way itkind of goes back to that whole
how has our brain been trained?
If it's been trained throughpornography, am I have I learned
that this is the way to get thepleasure that that I feel like I
(28:25):
need?
SPEAKER_01 (28:26):
Yeah, right.
unknown (28:27):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (28:27):
I mean, like the we're physical creatures, which
means that we have we are in onelocation at one time.
And this is the first time I raninto this was years and years
ago.
Um, this this really godlyChristian man I knew talked
about how his wife was okay withhim masturbating when he was on
business trips, uh, as long ashe was thinking about her, and
it was it was a way for him toremain faithful.
(28:48):
And uh, so the the the twothoughts about that, one is
well, but your wife is not withyou.
And so, in order for you toreally be loving your wife, is
to acknowledge like your wife,the thought of your wife is with
you, but she's not.
Like, um, and then the second tofollow that up, and this uh I'm
glad you bring up just kind ofhow we train ourselves on porn
or train ourselves on fantasy,like it's actually valuable to
(29:09):
grow in faithfulness, to grow insexual integrity, to practice
the reality that that yourspouse, assuming you have one,
is just one person in onelocation with limitations.
That is a part of how we grow insexual faithfulness.
We subject ourselves to thereality that our spouse is who
he or she is, not someone else,not a fiction in our in our
(29:32):
minds, not all that we wish inevery moment.
Uh and I think over the longhaul, that enables us to more
and more freely say, yeah, thisis my body given for you, not
for my imagining or my desire ofwho or where you might be, but
for you yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (29:49):
Well, and for this well, can I just say for the
single listeners, some some ofyou might be in the mindset of
maybe you're dating, maybeyou're engaged, maybe you were
married at one point, but it'sworth mentioning that.
Sex is not available on demandwhen you're in marriage.
Right.
Um the um rude awakeningsinclude things like uh women's
(30:11):
if I'm speaking to men right nowin particular, women's arousal
takes more time to build up.
Men's arousal can happen almostinstantaneously.
That's very different than whatpornography seems to show.
Right, right.
And so on and so forth.
So if you're single and you'relike, man, if I could just get
married and have sex as often asI masturbate, that really might
not be on the table, right?
(30:32):
For all the reasons we said andones we're not even thinking of.
Can you love the spouse in frontof you?
And again, this is invitational.
This is, I'm looking, I can lookat myself basically in the
metaphorical mirror throughZoom.
Like, can I grow in that agapelove?
Because I wouldn't say probablyany of us, again, that's like
this gradient, like over time,God, make me that self-giving
(30:54):
kind of man.
Make me the kind of man, by theway, and I love getting, I got
this from Christopher West,Josh.
Make me the kind of man who canabstain, who can fast is the
language he uses.
He's like, hey, he's a Catholic,and so he's like, if you if you
don't want to have kids, uh, youcan be pretty confident you're
not gonna have kids in certainwindows.
That's why they call it familyplanning.
(31:15):
But even in those windows, andalso when you're unable to have
sex, whether it's because you'reyou're not in a place to have a
baby or other other elements,can you fast?
Can you actually take take abreak instead of you know, kind
of what he would call um uhusing contraception as a way to
(31:38):
like cut off our uh what's itcalled, like our livelihood or
like our um creative creativepower, so to speak, co-creative
power with God.
Can you fast instead?
Can you abstain instead?
Because that's actually, ifyou're not married yet, that's
going to be required in marriagemore often than you might
realize.
I think I heard you sayrecently, Josh, that like you're
(32:00):
talking to someone and you'relike, I don't know if he
realizes that I'm probablyhaving a lot less sex than he
is, and he's not a married manand he's trying to get it
together and follow Jesus, butlike it really might not be as
often.
And yet, you know, Paul doestalk about this idea.
Don't go away permanently fromyour spouse.
If you are going to take sexualbreaks and they're kind of
intentional and longer form, doit in prayer and other forms of
(32:24):
fasting.
Like, if there's reasons yourmarriage is having trouble,
there actually could be aninvitation to the spiritual
discipline and the power thatcomes with literally fasting and
praying, Lord, restore us, bringus new life.
I know my wife and I have triedthis in part in response to some
of the betrayal she'sexperienced from me.
Like, what does it mean for usto take a break, fast, and pray
(32:47):
so that we're seeing God emptyus out of our own striving and
fill us with his actual power,his his spiritual food.
SPEAKER_01 (32:56):
That's beautiful.
I love it.
Yeah, and I and I don't knowwhere I just want to say this.
I I think in some ways we'repointing to an ideal.
And I I recognize that.
Uh and I think some people wouldmight might have some contention
with with it, what we're sayingbecause of that.
(33:17):
Um, you know, I mean, even theeven the question itself, isn't
it better that I fantasize aboutmy spouse than that I act out
with somebody else?
But but I also so so I I I dowant listeners to hear it
invitationally andaspirationally, like this is
worth aiming for, worth seekingthe Lord about, worth seeking to
grow in.
(33:37):
And where you falter along theway, God's grace is there for
you, and He's He He's willing towalk with you every step of the
way.
And at the same time, like I Ialso don't want to pull down the
ideal.
Like there we're created to loveas God loves.
And God, if we're followers ofJesus, we have God's spirit in
us.
(33:58):
And so I think there's sometimeswe can cut ourselves short of
that aspirational vision justbecause it's difficult.
But I I really I would say to tolisteners, like, there's there
is real good here.
And and I'm not I'm not sayingany of this.
I don't think either of us aresaying any of this out of a
place of like moral uh pruderyor or legalism, as much as
(34:20):
there's actually some real joyand some real good in this.
And it works very differentlythan uh uh than than than
fantasy and and masturbation do.
SPEAKER_00 (34:31):
So beautiful.
Well, we gotta wrap up fortoday.
Josh, I want to ask you to prayin just a moment, but I I just
want to share this last word.
I said the Greek word earlier oftelos, right?
End goal or purpose.
It's similar.
It's actually telos is the rootfor telios, which is what Jesus
says in the Sermon on the Mountbe perfect as your heavenly
(34:52):
father is perfect.
Another way to translate teliosis to be mature or to be whole.
Becoming whole, baby.
Uh this is the invitation.
This is the invitation.
We're becoming whole.
This is not a shame-based, uh,you know, that's not the heart
behind this podcast, whether youstruggle or don't struggle in
these particular ways, is torecognize that Jesus actually
(35:16):
wants more for us.
He wants more for us than for usto medicate our places of
immaturity that we don't knowhow to deal with, with
masturbation, or to hide behindthe costume and the
role-playing.
He actually wants us, all of us,to be who we are made to be.
So that's the invitation,friends.
Uh, Josh and I are on that samejourney.
(35:36):
That's why this is not we becamewhole podcasts, this is becoming
whole podcasts.
So, Josh, could you pray for ourlisteners?
SPEAKER_01 (35:43):
Yeah.
Jesus, uh, thank you that youcame with grace and truth.
And thank you that you are thegreat bridegroom who gave
yourself completely for the sakeof your bride.
Thank you, Lord, for the waythat you poured your life out,
even through pain and sufferingand death for our sake.
Lord, help us to grow in thatkind of love for one another and
(36:05):
for those of us who are married.
Help us to grow in that kind oflove for our spouses.
And where we falter and fail andstruggle along the way, Lord, we
look back to you and receiveanew from you your love for us,
your grace for us, your helpalong the way.
Thank you, Lord Jesus.
We pray in your name.
Amen.
SPEAKER_00 (36:21):
Amen.
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