September 26, 2023 • 9 mins
Anu Bradford, Professor at Columbia Law School, discusses her book Digital Empires: The Global Battle to Regulate Technology.
Hosts: Carol Massar and Tim Stenovec. Producer: Paul Brennan.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Karl Messer and
Tim Stenebek on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
We've got a great guest to get into what's going
on when it comes to technology, but really the global
battle among the three dominant digital powers when it comes
to regulating the space and influencing it.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
It's the subject of a brand new book, Digital Empires,
The Global Battle to Regulate Technology, written by a new Bradford,
Professor at Columbia Law School and senior scholar at Columbia
Business School. The book a follow up to her book
The Brussels Effect, a term that she coined. She joins
us on a zoom here in New York City. It's
good to have you with us, professor, How.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Are you good? Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Well, thanks so much for joining us. It's so interesting.
We talked about regulating technology last week that Diana Henriquez,
who wrote a book about the Well's written many books,
but her most recent book is about the SEC and
the development of the SEC under FDR. And we asked
her what you know that what needs to be regulated
in this day and age, and without hesitation, she said
(01:02):
it was technology. And I'm wondering how are you looking
at that through the lens of your book, especially outside
of the United States.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Yeah. So, certainly is they growing consensus around the world
that technology needs rules and the governments do need to
step in, but there is no consensus what those rules
really ought to look like. So in the book, I
argue that there are three prominent ways to think about
governing technology. There is the American market driven way, there
(01:32):
is that Chinese state driven way, and then there's a third,
the European rights driven regulatory model.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Talk about the European one because that's kind of freshener
in our thoughts because of what Apple did with its
new USB C connector because that's the result of regulation.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Absolutely, and that was one of those manifestations of the
Brussels effect, whereby rules that are set in the European
Union find their way into the global production and global
conduct of the tech companies. But basically, unlike the Americans
that really have focused on free market, free internet and
sort of maximizing the opportunities for innovation, or the Chinese
(02:14):
and that really want to bring the state there to
leverage technology, including to maintain political control, the European rights
riven models starts from this presumption that digital revolution needs
to be human centric, the preservation of the democratic structures
of the society, the fundamental rights of the individuals take
(02:36):
the center stage, but also incorporates this notion of a
more fair digital economy so that we redistribute some of
the gains from the tech companies to the smaller players,
to users, and to the public at large.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
So, Professor Bradford, do you is it kind of going
to follow the same path as we've seen to some
extent with climate right and oversight, and also even I
feel like global regulatory oversight when it comes to markets,
it does feel like the EU leads away on a
lot of stuff.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
So that is exactly right. So the Europeans have consistently
just shown that they are much more comfortable with government
intervening and much more skeptical with the idea that markets
on their own, left to their own devices, would generate
optimal outcomes. So the Europeans have been the ford runners
when it comes to regulating food safety, consumer protection, the environment,
(03:35):
the battle to mitigate climate change, and now I think
one of the newest frontiers has been the regulation of technology,
where again the Europeans are showing the way.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Why is it so important that we be having this
discussion right now?
Speaker 3 (03:52):
So I think that if you just look at the
vast power of these tech companies, they have the economic
power they called power, informational power, cultural power. They're really
shaping the societies and the lives of individuals around the world.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
And I will say, just for a second, when we
had Diana henriquezon when we'd asked her who are the
power brokers back in the nineteen twenties, it was industrialists, right,
and she made the point of the power brokers today
are those that are in control of data, whether it's
Google or you know, Amazon, pick your company, but they
are the power brokers. But anyway, go ahead and continue.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
That is exactly right, and that is one of the
main concerns that the Europeans in particular take the view
that we cannot let these companies to be the power brokers,
that we need to then bind them to the rule
of law and subject they conduct to democratic oversights. So
we do need to bring the governments that are representing
the people back to the table and then sort of
(04:52):
directing the course of our digital economy.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Based on the books that you've written, the research that
you've done, the work that you've done, which approach is
the best?
Speaker 3 (05:02):
So look, I am a believer in the digital transformation
needing a liberal, democratic foundation, So there is no way
that I can endorse that the Chinese digital authoritarian model.
I think that is too oppressive. It infringes individual rights
and liberties and subjects population to massive and as surveillance.
(05:27):
So I have many issues with the Chinese model, even
though I must recognize that China has done really well
in devel developing technologies even without having freedom as the
foundation of the society. But if the Chinese model is
too oppressive, I think the American model can be viewed
as too permissive, and it has really failed to step
(05:50):
in to protect the fundamental rights to protect our data
and just placed too much of the trust in tech
companies that have then failed to reality task as guardians
of our data and protectors of the digital space. So
that really leaves the European model as the one that
I think best advances public interests and checks the corporate
(06:14):
power and ultimately then leads to aa more sort of
fear thriving digital society.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
So does the EU and the US align on this
because it sounds like that's what needs to happen.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
I think that is exactly right, that ultimately you would
need both the US and the EO to join forces
and align behind a sort of same set of principles
for that governance model to be effected. And I would
say that there is a shift underway in the US.
So the US itself is now starting to rethink its
(06:49):
technol libertarian commitments and starting to ask whether the markets
really are capable of governing the digital economy. And you
see the public opinion both shifting. You see that many
bills being proposed in Congress, and that indicates that there
certainly is a different conversation about technology that is much
(07:11):
more closer to the European rights driven model than what
we've seen in the past.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
You right that this battle over digital quote will ultimately
determine the soul of the digital economy, defining what kind
of society we will live in for years and decades
to come, in a battle that the US nor the
EU can afford to lose. If we don't get this right,
then what.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
So what ultimately to me is at stake here? The
biggest battle is really about liberal democracy, and I think
the US and the EU should remember that liberal democracy
can be lost in one of two ways. So one
is if the US and EU will lose the horizontal
battle to China and the world is turning more authoritarian.
(08:01):
But also if the US and the EU lose the
vertical battle to the tech companies and fail to effectively
control them, because if that happens, then the true digital
empires are either the authoritarians or then the tech companies,
and neither solution is sustainable for anybody who believes in
(08:22):
liberal democracy.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
You know, it's interesting, Carol, I say this over and
over again, but if there's you know, there's not much
that unites Democrats and Republicans here in the US and Congress.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
But this does bring them together.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
It does at least the idea of regulating big tech
right quote unquote, regulating big tech the way they want
to do it is certainly different, and the reasons why
are different, but you know, they want to do it.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
It's a really good point. And I also feel like
there's a fair amount of streaming services out there, are
streaming series out there that reminds you when data takes over,
like kind of what happens to our world. Professor Bradford,
Thank you so much. Really appreciate the time with you.
A New Bradford Professor at Columbia Law School, Senior scholar
at Columbia Business School, an from New York City. Her
new book, Digital Empire, is the global battle to regulate
(09:02):
technology
You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Karl Messer and
Tim Stenebek on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
We've got a great guest to get into what's going
on when it comes to technology, but really the global
battle among the three dominant digital powers when it comes
to regulating the space and influencing it.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
It's the subject of a brand new book, Digital Empires,
The Global Battle to Regulate Technology, written by a new Bradford,
Professor at Columbia Law School and senior scholar at Columbia
Business School. The book a follow up to her book
The Brussels Effect, a term that she coined. She joins
us on a zoom here in New York City. It's
good to have you with us, professor, How.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Are you good? Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Well, thanks so much for joining us. It's so interesting.
We talked about regulating technology last week that Diana Henriquez,
who wrote a book about the Well's written many books,
but her most recent book is about the SEC and
the development of the SEC under FDR. And we asked
her what you know that what needs to be regulated
in this day and age, and without hesitation, she said
(01:02):
it was technology. And I'm wondering how are you looking
at that through the lens of your book, especially outside
of the United States.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Yeah. So, certainly is they growing consensus around the world
that technology needs rules and the governments do need to
step in, but there is no consensus what those rules
really ought to look like. So in the book, I
argue that there are three prominent ways to think about
governing technology. There is the American market driven way, there
(01:32):
is that Chinese state driven way, and then there's a third,
the European rights driven regulatory model.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Talk about the European one because that's kind of freshener
in our thoughts because of what Apple did with its
new USB C connector because that's the result of regulation.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Absolutely, and that was one of those manifestations of the
Brussels effect, whereby rules that are set in the European
Union find their way into the global production and global
conduct of the tech companies. But basically, unlike the Americans
that really have focused on free market, free internet and
sort of maximizing the opportunities for innovation, or the Chinese
(02:14):
and that really want to bring the state there to
leverage technology, including to maintain political control, the European rights
riven models starts from this presumption that digital revolution needs
to be human centric, the preservation of the democratic structures
of the society, the fundamental rights of the individuals take
(02:36):
the center stage, but also incorporates this notion of a
more fair digital economy so that we redistribute some of
the gains from the tech companies to the smaller players,
to users, and to the public at large.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
So, Professor Bradford, do you is it kind of going
to follow the same path as we've seen to some
extent with climate right and oversight, and also even I
feel like global regulatory oversight when it comes to markets,
it does feel like the EU leads away on a
lot of stuff.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
So that is exactly right. So the Europeans have consistently
just shown that they are much more comfortable with government
intervening and much more skeptical with the idea that markets
on their own, left to their own devices, would generate
optimal outcomes. So the Europeans have been the ford runners
when it comes to regulating food safety, consumer protection, the environment,
(03:35):
the battle to mitigate climate change, and now I think
one of the newest frontiers has been the regulation of technology,
where again the Europeans are showing the way.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Why is it so important that we be having this
discussion right now?
Speaker 3 (03:52):
So I think that if you just look at the
vast power of these tech companies, they have the economic
power they called power, informational power, cultural power. They're really
shaping the societies and the lives of individuals around the world.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
And I will say, just for a second, when we
had Diana henriquezon when we'd asked her who are the
power brokers back in the nineteen twenties, it was industrialists, right,
and she made the point of the power brokers today
are those that are in control of data, whether it's
Google or you know, Amazon, pick your company, but they
are the power brokers. But anyway, go ahead and continue.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
That is exactly right, and that is one of the
main concerns that the Europeans in particular take the view
that we cannot let these companies to be the power brokers,
that we need to then bind them to the rule
of law and subject they conduct to democratic oversights. So
we do need to bring the governments that are representing
the people back to the table and then sort of
(04:52):
directing the course of our digital economy.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Based on the books that you've written, the research that
you've done, the work that you've done, which approach is
the best?
Speaker 3 (05:02):
So look, I am a believer in the digital transformation
needing a liberal, democratic foundation, So there is no way
that I can endorse that the Chinese digital authoritarian model.
I think that is too oppressive. It infringes individual rights
and liberties and subjects population to massive and as surveillance.
(05:27):
So I have many issues with the Chinese model, even
though I must recognize that China has done really well
in devel developing technologies even without having freedom as the
foundation of the society. But if the Chinese model is
too oppressive, I think the American model can be viewed
as too permissive, and it has really failed to step
(05:50):
in to protect the fundamental rights to protect our data
and just placed too much of the trust in tech
companies that have then failed to reality task as guardians
of our data and protectors of the digital space. So
that really leaves the European model as the one that
I think best advances public interests and checks the corporate
(06:14):
power and ultimately then leads to aa more sort of
fear thriving digital society.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
So does the EU and the US align on this
because it sounds like that's what needs to happen.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
I think that is exactly right, that ultimately you would
need both the US and the EO to join forces
and align behind a sort of same set of principles
for that governance model to be effected. And I would
say that there is a shift underway in the US.
So the US itself is now starting to rethink its
(06:49):
technol libertarian commitments and starting to ask whether the markets
really are capable of governing the digital economy. And you
see the public opinion both shifting. You see that many
bills being proposed in Congress, and that indicates that there
certainly is a different conversation about technology that is much
(07:11):
more closer to the European rights driven model than what
we've seen in the past.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
You right that this battle over digital quote will ultimately
determine the soul of the digital economy, defining what kind
of society we will live in for years and decades
to come, in a battle that the US nor the
EU can afford to lose. If we don't get this right,
then what.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
So what ultimately to me is at stake here? The
biggest battle is really about liberal democracy, and I think
the US and the EU should remember that liberal democracy
can be lost in one of two ways. So one
is if the US and EU will lose the horizontal
battle to China and the world is turning more authoritarian.
(08:01):
But also if the US and the EU lose the
vertical battle to the tech companies and fail to effectively
control them, because if that happens, then the true digital
empires are either the authoritarians or then the tech companies,
and neither solution is sustainable for anybody who believes in
(08:22):
liberal democracy.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
You know, it's interesting, Carol, I say this over and
over again, but if there's you know, there's not much
that unites Democrats and Republicans here in the US and Congress.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
But this does bring them together.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
It does at least the idea of regulating big tech
right quote unquote, regulating big tech the way they want
to do it is certainly different, and the reasons why
are different, but you know, they want to do it.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
It's a really good point. And I also feel like
there's a fair amount of streaming services out there, are
streaming series out there that reminds you when data takes over,
like kind of what happens to our world. Professor Bradford,
Thank you so much. Really appreciate the time with you.
A New Bradford Professor at Columbia Law School, Senior scholar
at Columbia Business School, an from New York City. Her
new book, Digital Empire, is the global battle to regulate
(09:02):
technology
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