March 7, 2025 • 21 mins
We dive into surprising data from PodMatch about how 9,000 podcasters market their shows, revealing a disconnect between the most popular tactics and those that actually drive growth.
Check out our Reddit thread for unique marketing ideas for your podcast!
Don't forget to send us your challenges to do something different just to talk about it on the podcast!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jordan (00:00):
Okay, so something I wanted to talk about today is a
post that Alex Sanfilippo fromPodmatch had posted recently.
He shared data based onresponses in his host quiz from
over 9,000 podcast hosts abouthow they market their shows to
grow listenership.
What was really interestingabout this and this is what Alex
(00:21):
pointed out is that what heconsiders to be the top
marketing tactics were notremotely in the top bracket.
So the things that podcasterswere saying that they used the
most were naturally talkingabout their podcast with friends
and family, which I feel likethat's really the stage that my
husband's in with his podcast.
Kevin (00:41):
He's talking to you a lot about it.
It comes up in everyconversation.
Way too much.
Jordan (00:48):
Asking guests to share episodes asking listeners to
share, which I actually like.
That one, creating still imageannouncements, not audiograms
for social media, and turningepisodes into short form video
were the top five.
Kevin (01:03):
That one is like audiograms.
I mean or if you have a videocomponent of the show, cutting
it up for social.
Okay, that's kind of what I'mthinking.
Jordan (01:10):
Yeah, that's kind of what I think, but, yeah, maybe
autograms, maybe talking headvideos, things like that.
I really agree with Alex thatthe top like tactics to really
move the needle on your podcastgrowth are not listed in there.
I really feel like being aguest on a podcast should be
number one.
Kevin (01:26):
Right, but just to clarify the question.
I think, if I'm reading thiscorrectly, the question is what
are the tactics that you use,not necessarily which ones are
the most effective for you right?
So let's clarify that pointright off the bat, and then I
think it starts to make a littlebit more sense, because the
ones that are showing up at thetop of the list are the ones
that are a little bit easier.
Alban (01:47):
Yeah.
Kevin (01:47):
Yeah, it hasn't always been super easy to create still
image announcements and postthem to social media, or even
audiogram type things or talkinghead videos.
But there's more and more toolscoming out that are making
those things easier and easier,and so I think people are
jumping onto those tools andusing them and doing some of
that stuff.
Asking listeners to sharethat's super easy.
Asking guests to share that'ssuper easy.
(02:09):
Talking to your friends andfamily about your podcast that's
sometimes annoyingly easy.
Alban (02:17):
Yeah, I'm looking at the question, Kevin.
How do you market your podcastto grow listenership Check?
All that apply Market yourpodcast to grow listenership
Check all that apply.
And so if I was going down thislist, I would not say that the
most effective things that we'vedone for Buzzcast has been
talking to friends and family,but I've done it, so I would
click that one.
And it's not the most effectivething that we ask listeners to
(02:39):
share this podcast, but we'vedone that, so I'd check that one
, and so I do think I wouldcheck a lot of the ones that are
near the top, because we'vetried them, we do them, you
almost do them, naturally, yeah,cause they're almost free,
right, right.
What's interesting is I mean,I've got a few takes on this,
but what is interesting is Alexis pointing out he's saying the
three that move the needle themost for him are one-on-one
(03:03):
outreach to his ideal listeners,being a guest on other podcasts
and creating a blog for eachepisode, and those are the three
things that have made thebiggest impact for him.
I don't think I find itsurprising the order that stuff
comes in on this question, justbecause you can check everything
.
Jordan (03:22):
Yeah.
Alban (03:22):
But I guess we should always remember there's three
different things here.
There's what do you do?
What do you find to beeffective?
And then there's this total,random third thing what do
random influencers in your spacetell you to do?
That is totally unrelated toany sort of evidence.
Jordan (03:39):
Yeah, yeah.
And what works for one personis not going to work for another
.
So I guess if you do hear a lotof like regurgitation of the
same tips over and over again,you're going to be like, oh well
, that's what these people did.
I mean, it's like, oh gosh, whodid you have Jordan Harbinger
on Buzzsprout Conversationsepisode and he spent like so
much money in advertising, inpodcast advertising, and that's
(04:02):
how he grew a show.
But that's not going to workfor like just the average person
, I think.
Alban (04:07):
Well.
So this is good.
Just this is you're justtouching on a really good
marketing point.
Yeah, and a lot of times peoplesay, oh, what should I do for
marketing?
And what they want to know is,what channel should I use?
And you know they hope thatyou'll say Facebook ads, you
turn it on.
And you just basically turn iton and all of a sudden you get
customers with big walletsfalling out and you're like, oh,
(04:28):
this worked.
Or they want to get sponsorednewsletters, and then you send
them the list of newsletters andboom, they turned on.
It works.
But the truth is that thechannels that work for one
business often do not work forother businesses.
The business types can bedifferent, the target market is
(04:48):
different, the brand positioningis different, and so what I try
to get people to consider is,first, who are you trying to
reach?
Who are these people?
And some podcasters?
When you talk to them, who isthe ideal listener?
They don't even know.
Yeah, they can't articulate whysomeone would listen to the
(05:09):
show.
If you can't articulate whysomeone would listen to the show
and who they are, it doesn'treally matter if you're spending
Jordan Harbinger levels ofmoney on growing your podcast
because there's no one out therewho really hears it and goes.
That's for me.
And then, once we have thisideal listener, now we have a
(05:33):
new problem, which is how do weget in front of that ideal
listener with something thatconvinces them to listen to the
podcast or convinces them to buyyour product or whatever it may
be.
It's why a lot of people, whenI talk to them about I'm like,
oh, I work in marketing be.
It's why a lot of people when Italk to them about I'm like, oh
, I work in marketing, they'relike, okay, advertising, because
their exposure to marketing isjust the piece of it that's
advertising.
They're like, oh, I watch TVand there's lots of commercials,
(05:54):
and so I see one of thechannels is paying money to get
in front of people.
But there's tons of channelsand they're often unique to the
specific audience that you'retrying to reach.
Kevin (06:06):
I agree.
I will say the one thing thatevery target audience for a
podcast has in common is thatthey listen to podcasts.
Right, it's much, much harderto convince somebody who doesn't
listen to podcasts yet at allin their life.
Maybe they don't even know whata podcast is.
So first understand what apodcast is and then start
carving out time in their life.
Maybe they don't even know whata podcast is.
So first understand what apodcast is and then start, you
(06:26):
know, carving out time in theirlife for podcasts to exist and
then figure out how to launch apodcast app on their phone and
then find your podcast Likethat's.
That's this whole long journey.
It's not that it's impossible.
It's just that that's probablyonly going to happen with the
closest people in your life.
You're only going to be able totake them on that journey, and
most of us want to grow ourshows beyond just the closest
people in our lives, and so thatis why us and a lot of other
(06:51):
people continue to return tothis idea of guesting on other
podcasts, because that wholehurdle is already out of the way
.
When you're promoting your showon another podcast, the only
people who are hearing it arepodcast listeners, people who
already have this figured outfor themselves.
They enjoy it, and so you'vealready done like 90% of the
hard work of finding podcastlisteners, right.
Jordan (07:13):
Yeah.
Kevin (07:13):
And now you're trying to find what shows can I go on that
I can add value to, so it makessense for me to be on that show
, and then somebody listening tothat show might connect with me
and want to hear my show here.
What would I talk about on myshow?
Alban (07:27):
Right, you've checked all three boxes.
You've said does this personeven know what a podcast is and
listen to it?
Yes, check.
Are they interested in actionfigures?
Well, it's an action figurepodcast and I do an action
figure podcast.
So, yes, they are interested inthe subject matter.
Check, okay.
Third, do I have a way ofgetting in front of them?
Oh, I'm on the podcast.
(07:47):
They already listened to.
Check number three.
And so you've got all threechecks.
You've got the chance.
You've actually got a bigchance, because you've got like
a 30 minute interview talkingabout your subject matter and if
people think, oh, this person'sinteresting, they are going to
be the easiest person in theworld to convince to come over
and listen to your podcast.
Jordan (08:07):
There is something you talked about earlier, kevin,
with like the amount of effort.
You know, these are like thetop things that basically
everyone can do because it takesthe least amount of effort.
I actually had a conversationwith Josh last night because he
was telling me you know, I'vebeen thinking about running some
ads on like Instagram and I waslike, why?
And he's like for the podcast,like to grow the podcast.
(08:27):
And I was just like, okay, youdon't have an Instagram account
for the podcast Like, you haveto do that.
First, you have to take thatfirst step of putting forth the
effort to like create thecontent for your Instagram
profile.
And then I was like and secondof all, you're not even
guaranteed to get in front oflike podcast listeners.
You need to be on otherpodcasts.
I'm like, if you're going tospend like ad money, do it on
(08:48):
Buzzsprout ads At least.
Then you're getting on otherpodcasts and you get an
opportunity for people to hearyour podcast.
Click on the link.
It's just, it's funny, becauseI think people do just get it in
their head Like oh well, thisis what people do, like they run
ads on social media and thenthey get their listeners and
that's it, and that's just notthe case.
Like, if you are going to be onsocial media, you have to put
in some serious work to createcontent, to promote your podcast
(09:10):
on social media.
Kevin (09:12):
I think it's surprising, but oftentimes, even for people
who don't have large budgets ora lot of expendable income, it
doesn't make sense.
But still, somehow we as humansare able to justify spending
money as a lighter lift,Guesting on somebody else's show
.
That's not easy, and evensometimes when you do a good
(09:36):
chunk of the work to make thathappen.
I've researched the shows thatI want to be on.
I've reached out to them, Ipitched myself.
They've accepted me.
Then you don't do the last half,which is how do I become a
really, really good guest?
I need to go back and listen toa whole bunch of their episodes
.
I need to see what other gueststhat they had on and which ones
(09:56):
did great and which onesweren't so great.
What made the great ones great?
What made the flat ones flat?
How am I the best guest thatwas ever on this episode?
How do I make it so that theperson who does this podcast
can't help but shout it from therooftops about how great of an
episode this is and you have tolisten to it?
That is a heavy lift.
It's a lot of work andsometimes, like I said, if
(10:16):
people don't even have a lot ofmoney, it's just easier for them
still to just be like I'm stillgoing to throw a hundred bucks
in this.
Jordan (10:20):
Do I have a hundred dollars of disposable income?
Kevin (10:22):
No, I don't, but it's a lot easier than you know is that
Instagram will not reject you.
Alban (10:27):
They will as long as that credit card clears, they go.
Great job.
I love what you're doing.
We're going to get this infront of people.
Proud of you Now podcast hosts.
Then you pitch yourself on tobe on their show and then you
have to go do the work and sendemails and they don't respond
(10:48):
90% of the time.
And then, half of them make itdifficult for you to sign up and
get a time.
All of that hurts and it'sdifficult, Like it's emotionally
hard and it's not fun, eventhough it may pay off well.
But Instagram and anyonewilling to take your money they
make it as easy as possible togo ahead and swipe the card and
(11:09):
start getting some people to atleast view what you worked on.
Jordan (11:14):
Yeah, yeah, I guess I didn't think about the fear of
rejection.
I think you have to be at leastlike a little bit delusional
when you send your pitches.
Just tell yourself that you'rethe best option for them and
they would be fools to notchoose you.
Kevin (11:26):
Well, there's a fear on both sides too, right Like what
if they say no, I'm going tofeel rejected.
What if they say yes?
Sometimes that's even morescary, like now I've got to,
I've got to show up, I've got tobe a good guest, I've got to do
a whole bunch of work, and thatcan be very anxiety inducing.
I remember the first time Ithink I've told this story
before, the first time I went onsmart passive income with Pat
(11:48):
Flynn.
He does hundreds of thousandsof downloads on popular episodes
which I didn't think anythingof.
That I was like great, I likePat, pat likes me, we're going
to get on and have aconversation and he's going to
share it on his podcast.
And then, a day before I wasgoing on that show, keena's like
oh, I've heard of that show,that's a really big show.
And I was like yeah, she's like, that's like you giving a
keynote in front of like an NFLsize crowd.
(12:09):
I was like, and immediatelywent to sleep.
Yeah, I immediately went intopanic mode.
I'm like oh my gosh, I don'twant to do this Terrible.
And so that was not a helpfulcomment, but scary on both sides
.
Alban (12:24):
Whenever people talk about money, spending money on
podcasting or any kind of amarketing growth, I always say,
like you know, we we it likethrowing gas on the fire.
Okay, Throwing gas on the fireis such a good image here
because if there isn't a fireyet, pouring gas on it will not
start a fire.
You only want to pour the gason a actual burning fire,
(12:47):
something that's actuallyworking already and so like.
If you want to put money intoInstagram ads, you're going to
have to create really good ads.
You know what makes really goodads on Instagram, Very similar
to what makes very goodInstagram posts.
So, you're already going to needto create the organic content.
Go and figure out which of myorganic posts are getting a lot
(13:08):
of traction and maybe they'reshort form video that highlights
my podcast.
That's going to become the adand you can get all the
experimentation out of the waywhich of these fires ever
catches on at all and which ofthem is just really stays really
small and it kind of fizzlesout.
Pour gas on the one.
That's working on its own andit's just an accelerant for what
(13:33):
you've done.
That's already working.
It's not going to be thecomplete strategy.
Kevin (13:36):
It's not going to be the complete strategy.
So the other two topics that helisted as needle movers for him
are one-on-one outreach toideal listeners, and I think I
like that because it's one ofthose things that we talked
about in our big marketingepisode that we did a couple
months ago.
We talked about doing things,when you're small, that are not
scalable, right.
Jordan (13:57):
Yeah.
Kevin (13:57):
If you're a Joe Rogan size podcast, does it make sense
for Joe to do one-on-oneoutreach to ideal listeners?
No, it doesn't at all.
Like you know, you're doinghundreds of thousands of
downloads per episode.
You're not looking for the nextone or two.
You know you're looking for thenext batch of 10,000, the next
batch of 20,000.
But when you're just startingout and you have seven people
(14:17):
who've downloaded your episode,you're looking for eight, you're
looking for nine, you'relooking for 10.
And so it is time intensive.
It's not scalable, but I dothink it can be effective for
podcasters when they're juststarting out or podcasters that
have a very niche topic that isvery specialized.
The more specific the targetaudience is for your podcast,
(14:39):
the more you should be able toidentify where those people are
online or in real life andconnect with them and share your
podcast with them.
I don't know if you guys haveanything to add to that, but the
last one was a full blog postfor each episode.
That can also be time intensive, which, again, is probably why
I feel like it's further down onthe list.
It's not easy to write a blogpost, or it hasn't been
historically.
(14:59):
Now there's some great AI tools.
There's co-host AI.
If you're a Buzzsprout customerthat generates a blog post for
you, that with very littleeffort, you can copy and paste
that and you can tweak it alittle bit just to make it your
own and publish that.
That's great SEO fuel forpeople who are searching for
stuff that you're talking aboutand maybe they find you, you
know, through your website,through your blog posts.
Then they listen to an episode.
(15:19):
They end up being a subscriber.
That is more scalable, but it'salso a little bit more time
intensive.
Jordan (15:25):
Yeah, so if you're having trouble getting your
podcast to grow or you feel likeyou're kind of like stuck or at
a plateau, like maybe thinkabout what methods that you're
using to market your podcast.
Are you just going the easiestroute or are you willing to put
in a little bit of time andeffort for these things that
like actually move the needle?
So I think that was a greatconversation.
Thanks, guys.
Alban (15:45):
Yeah, and if anybody wants ideas, we still have a
great Reddit thread where tonsof people are sharing about
their podcast and they're alsoresponding.
We're responding with uniquemarketing ideas for everybody,
but you'll just see tons ofideas in there and it will
probably help you come up withsome experiments you can run on
your show.
So we'll link that in the shownotes.
(16:06):
Come over, we'd love to chat.
Jordan (16:08):
And just a reminder we still need some responses for
our sound off question or, Iguess, sound off challenge,
where we asked you to challengeus to do something, just so we
can talk about it on the podcast.
So be sure to tap the Texasshow link in the show notes and
until next time, keep podcasting.
Kevin (16:34):
Surprise, surprise.
We're going to do a post-showon a quick cast Not so quick
after all, jordan.
I hope you, I, I want you to dolike like a three or four
seconds of like blank audio atthe end of that episode.
Okay, just like just an awkwardamount of of dead air.
Okay, so that only the peoplewho are really committed to
listening to the show.
Jordan (16:53):
Get to hear the post show so for the ones that are
like stuck washing their dishesand like can't dry their hands
off fast enough and they're likeno remember when cds used to
put like hidden tracks oh, thehidden track, and it would be
like five minutes of blank audioand you're like, what is this?
Kevin (17:08):
oh, I gotta, I gotta, you just like, let it keep playing,
and then a new song's there,yeah yeah all right hidden track
on the quick cast only becauseI want to know Albin, you ran
this, the Gate River run,jacksonville's biggest run.
It is the world.
I think it's the.
Is it the US World Championshipfor 15K?
It's a huge race in town.
Alban (17:28):
I love that we have a 15K that's big, because we get to
say it's like the world'slargest or the nation's largest
15K.
Jordan (17:36):
Wait, is it actually?
Alban (17:37):
Yeah, yes, because no one runs 15k.
Oh, I think it's just an odddistance.
Uh, people either run maybe 10kor they run a half marathon,
marathon, yeah, and it's kind ofin the middle of those two all
right.
Kevin (17:50):
So albin ran it last sunday.
I ran it last sunday.
We talked about your goal forthis year being crossing the
finish line with a bigger smilethan you have previously.
Is that true?
You ran it last time.
That's what I said your goalshould be.
Alban (18:06):
I think I need to go see if I can find the photo from
last year, because there was nota smile at the end of this one.
I have a photo of me crossingthe finish line and I look like
I'm about to die, which isaccurate.
It was probably the hardestrace of my life.
Jordan (18:23):
Why was it different from last year?
Alban (18:24):
Oh, I ran way, way, way faster, so it's 9.3 miles.
I think I'm about in the sameshape I was last year and I ran
it 13 minutes faster.
So hour 13 versus hour 26.
Hour 13.
Kevin (18:41):
So it's just under eight minutes right Under, yeah, under
eight minute miles 750something.
Alban (18:48):
And that's fast.
I mean it's way fast for me,it's way faster than I thought I
could run.
I started out kind of near thefront and my friend's there and
I'm like, oh, I'm going to tryto run without headphones.
He goes, oh, let's run together.
I'm wearing a suit, he'swearing a full suit, like as a
joke.
Yes, yeah, this guy, he writesall these goals and he has all
(19:14):
these goals which he has hislist of all his goals and
they're all like legit, normal,very ambitious goals.
He also had run a race in a suitin that list.
Jordan (19:22):
I don't see what's not ambitious about that.
Kevin (19:25):
He didn't want to choose, like the one mile fun run,
turkey run, to run in the suithe wanted to run the big 15K.
Alban (19:32):
So, I'm like, all right, this guy's way better shaped
than me, but I'm running noheadphones.
That's my goal.
He's running suit whatever,we'll stick together for like a
mile and he's running.
He runs a seven minute mile inthe beginning.
He probably can run close tosix the whole way.
So we run seven together andhe's getting hot and I'm getting
totally burned out and I keepthinking I'm going to make it to
(19:55):
5K.
Okay, I make it another mile.
I ended up sticking with himthe whole time really because I
was like I can't let a person ina full suit and tie run ahead
of me.
I have to keep up with him.
And we had a blast.
It was very, very hard, but wehad a really good time.
(20:15):
We just missed top 10% of therunners, so we didn't get a hat.
Jordan (20:19):
Oh man.
Alban (20:20):
Maybe, maybe in the future maybe next year?
Jordan (20:23):
Did you keep your promise about, like, not having
all your gadgets and gizmos allover?
Alban (20:28):
No, this is.
I wore a watch so that, uh, mywife and daughter could see
where I was, in case they cameand saw me on the racetrack, and
so they were going to try tosee where I was at any given
point.
But no podcast, no music.
Just listen to the sounds of Idon't know people running the
crowd.
Kevin (20:47):
It is a big crowd, no matter how fast or slow you run,
you're.
There's a lot of people who runthat race, and so it's a fun
one that you're being cheered onall along the way.
Alban (20:55):
Yeah, a lot of.
I mean I think I saw nobody.
I knew because everybody wasyelling hey, the guy in the suit
, the guy in the suit.
So even friends who I knowwhere they watched the race.
I was like oh, I didn't see you.
And they're like yeah, I didn'tsee you either.
And I'm like did you see a guyrunning in a suit?
Like, oh, that guy was awesome.
Jordan (21:12):
I was like yeah, I was right.
Next, to him.
Kevin (21:14):
That was my friend.
Okay, so something I wanted to talk about today is a
post that Alex Sanfilippo fromPodmatch had posted recently.
He shared data based onresponses in his host quiz from
over 9,000 podcast hosts abouthow they market their shows to
grow listenership.
What was really interestingabout this and this is what Alex
(00:21):
pointed out is that what heconsiders to be the top
marketing tactics were notremotely in the top bracket.
So the things that podcasterswere saying that they used the
most were naturally talkingabout their podcast with friends
and family, which I feel likethat's really the stage that my
husband's in with his podcast.
Kevin (00:41):
He's talking to you a lot about it.
It comes up in everyconversation.
Way too much.
Jordan (00:48):
Asking guests to share episodes asking listeners to
share, which I actually like.
That one, creating still imageannouncements, not audiograms
for social media, and turningepisodes into short form video
were the top five.
Kevin (01:03):
That one is like audiograms.
I mean or if you have a videocomponent of the show, cutting
it up for social.
Okay, that's kind of what I'mthinking.
Jordan (01:10):
Yeah, that's kind of what I think, but, yeah, maybe
autograms, maybe talking headvideos, things like that.
I really agree with Alex thatthe top like tactics to really
move the needle on your podcastgrowth are not listed in there.
I really feel like being aguest on a podcast should be
number one.
Kevin (01:26):
Right, but just to clarify the question.
I think, if I'm reading thiscorrectly, the question is what
are the tactics that you use,not necessarily which ones are
the most effective for you right?
So let's clarify that pointright off the bat, and then I
think it starts to make a littlebit more sense, because the
ones that are showing up at thetop of the list are the ones
that are a little bit easier.
Alban (01:47):
Yeah.
Kevin (01:47):
Yeah, it hasn't always been super easy to create still
image announcements and postthem to social media, or even
audiogram type things or talkinghead videos.
But there's more and more toolscoming out that are making
those things easier and easier,and so I think people are
jumping onto those tools andusing them and doing some of
that stuff.
Asking listeners to sharethat's super easy.
Asking guests to share that'ssuper easy.
(02:09):
Talking to your friends andfamily about your podcast that's
sometimes annoyingly easy.
Alban (02:17):
Yeah, I'm looking at the question, Kevin.
How do you market your podcastto grow listenership Check?
All that apply Market yourpodcast to grow listenership
Check all that apply.
And so if I was going down thislist, I would not say that the
most effective things that we'vedone for Buzzcast has been
talking to friends and family,but I've done it, so I would
click that one.
And it's not the most effectivething that we ask listeners to
(02:39):
share this podcast, but we'vedone that, so I'd check that one
, and so I do think I wouldcheck a lot of the ones that are
near the top, because we'vetried them, we do them, you
almost do them, naturally, yeah,cause they're almost free,
right, right.
What's interesting is I mean,I've got a few takes on this,
but what is interesting is Alexis pointing out he's saying the
three that move the needle themost for him are one-on-one
(03:03):
outreach to his ideal listeners,being a guest on other podcasts
and creating a blog for eachepisode, and those are the three
things that have made thebiggest impact for him.
I don't think I find itsurprising the order that stuff
comes in on this question, justbecause you can check everything
.
Jordan (03:22):
Yeah.
Alban (03:22):
But I guess we should always remember there's three
different things here.
There's what do you do?
What do you find to beeffective?
And then there's this total,random third thing what do
random influencers in your spacetell you to do?
That is totally unrelated toany sort of evidence.
Jordan (03:39):
Yeah, yeah.
And what works for one personis not going to work for another
.
So I guess if you do hear a lotof like regurgitation of the
same tips over and over again,you're going to be like, oh well
, that's what these people did.
I mean, it's like, oh gosh, whodid you have Jordan Harbinger
on Buzzsprout Conversationsepisode and he spent like so
much money in advertising, inpodcast advertising, and that's
(04:02):
how he grew a show.
But that's not going to workfor like just the average person
, I think.
Alban (04:07):
Well.
So this is good.
Just this is you're justtouching on a really good
marketing point.
Yeah, and a lot of times peoplesay, oh, what should I do for
marketing?
And what they want to know is,what channel should I use?
And you know they hope thatyou'll say Facebook ads, you
turn it on.
And you just basically turn iton and all of a sudden you get
customers with big walletsfalling out and you're like, oh,
(04:28):
this worked.
Or they want to get sponsorednewsletters, and then you send
them the list of newsletters andboom, they turned on.
It works.
But the truth is that thechannels that work for one
business often do not work forother businesses.
The business types can bedifferent, the target market is
(04:48):
different, the brand positioningis different, and so what I try
to get people to consider is,first, who are you trying to
reach?
Who are these people?
And some podcasters?
When you talk to them, who isthe ideal listener?
They don't even know.
Yeah, they can't articulate whysomeone would listen to the
(05:09):
show.
If you can't articulate whysomeone would listen to the show
and who they are, it doesn'treally matter if you're spending
Jordan Harbinger levels ofmoney on growing your podcast
because there's no one out therewho really hears it and goes.
That's for me.
And then, once we have thisideal listener, now we have a
(05:33):
new problem, which is how do weget in front of that ideal
listener with something thatconvinces them to listen to the
podcast or convinces them to buyyour product or whatever it may
be.
It's why a lot of people, whenI talk to them about I'm like,
oh, I work in marketing be.
It's why a lot of people when Italk to them about I'm like, oh
, I work in marketing, they'relike, okay, advertising, because
their exposure to marketing isjust the piece of it that's
advertising.
They're like, oh, I watch TVand there's lots of commercials,
(05:54):
and so I see one of thechannels is paying money to get
in front of people.
But there's tons of channelsand they're often unique to the
specific audience that you'retrying to reach.
Kevin (06:06):
I agree.
I will say the one thing thatevery target audience for a
podcast has in common is thatthey listen to podcasts.
Right, it's much, much harderto convince somebody who doesn't
listen to podcasts yet at allin their life.
Maybe they don't even know whata podcast is.
So first understand what apodcast is and then start
carving out time in their life.
Maybe they don't even know whata podcast is.
So first understand what apodcast is and then start, you
(06:26):
know, carving out time in theirlife for podcasts to exist and
then figure out how to launch apodcast app on their phone and
then find your podcast Likethat's.
That's this whole long journey.
It's not that it's impossible.
It's just that that's probablyonly going to happen with the
closest people in your life.
You're only going to be able totake them on that journey, and
most of us want to grow ourshows beyond just the closest
people in our lives, and so thatis why us and a lot of other
(06:51):
people continue to return tothis idea of guesting on other
podcasts, because that wholehurdle is already out of the way
.
When you're promoting your showon another podcast, the only
people who are hearing it arepodcast listeners, people who
already have this figured outfor themselves.
They enjoy it, and so you'vealready done like 90% of the
hard work of finding podcastlisteners, right.
Jordan (07:13):
Yeah.
Kevin (07:13):
And now you're trying to find what shows can I go on that
I can add value to, so it makessense for me to be on that show
, and then somebody listening tothat show might connect with me
and want to hear my show here.
What would I talk about on myshow?
Alban (07:27):
Right, you've checked all three boxes.
You've said does this personeven know what a podcast is and
listen to it?
Yes, check.
Are they interested in actionfigures?
Well, it's an action figurepodcast and I do an action
figure podcast.
So, yes, they are interested inthe subject matter.
Check, okay.
Third, do I have a way ofgetting in front of them?
Oh, I'm on the podcast.
(07:47):
They already listened to.
Check number three.
And so you've got all threechecks.
You've got the chance.
You've actually got a bigchance, because you've got like
a 30 minute interview talkingabout your subject matter and if
people think, oh, this person'sinteresting, they are going to
be the easiest person in theworld to convince to come over
and listen to your podcast.
Jordan (08:07):
There is something you talked about earlier, kevin,
with like the amount of effort.
You know, these are like thetop things that basically
everyone can do because it takesthe least amount of effort.
I actually had a conversationwith Josh last night because he
was telling me you know, I'vebeen thinking about running some
ads on like Instagram and I waslike, why?
And he's like for the podcast,like to grow the podcast.
(08:27):
And I was just like, okay, youdon't have an Instagram account
for the podcast Like, you haveto do that.
First, you have to take thatfirst step of putting forth the
effort to like create thecontent for your Instagram
profile.
And then I was like and secondof all, you're not even
guaranteed to get in front oflike podcast listeners.
You need to be on otherpodcasts.
I'm like, if you're going tospend like ad money, do it on
(08:48):
Buzzsprout ads At least.
Then you're getting on otherpodcasts and you get an
opportunity for people to hearyour podcast.
Click on the link.
It's just, it's funny, becauseI think people do just get it in
their head Like oh well, thisis what people do, like they run
ads on social media and thenthey get their listeners and
that's it, and that's just notthe case.
Like, if you are going to be onsocial media, you have to put
in some serious work to createcontent, to promote your podcast
(09:10):
on social media.
Kevin (09:12):
I think it's surprising, but oftentimes, even for people
who don't have large budgets ora lot of expendable income, it
doesn't make sense.
But still, somehow we as humansare able to justify spending
money as a lighter lift,Guesting on somebody else's show
.
That's not easy, and evensometimes when you do a good
(09:36):
chunk of the work to make thathappen.
I've researched the shows thatI want to be on.
I've reached out to them, Ipitched myself.
They've accepted me.
Then you don't do the last half,which is how do I become a
really, really good guest?
I need to go back and listen toa whole bunch of their episodes
.
I need to see what other gueststhat they had on and which ones
(09:56):
did great and which onesweren't so great.
What made the great ones great?
What made the flat ones flat?
How am I the best guest thatwas ever on this episode?
How do I make it so that theperson who does this podcast
can't help but shout it from therooftops about how great of an
episode this is and you have tolisten to it?
That is a heavy lift.
It's a lot of work andsometimes, like I said, if
(10:16):
people don't even have a lot ofmoney, it's just easier for them
still to just be like I'm stillgoing to throw a hundred bucks
in this.
Jordan (10:20):
Do I have a hundred dollars of disposable income?
Kevin (10:22):
No, I don't, but it's a lot easier than you know is that
Instagram will not reject you.
Alban (10:27):
They will as long as that credit card clears, they go.
Great job.
I love what you're doing.
We're going to get this infront of people.
Proud of you Now podcast hosts.
Then you pitch yourself on tobe on their show and then you
have to go do the work and sendemails and they don't respond
(10:48):
90% of the time.
And then, half of them make itdifficult for you to sign up and
get a time.
All of that hurts and it'sdifficult, Like it's emotionally
hard and it's not fun, eventhough it may pay off well.
But Instagram and anyonewilling to take your money they
make it as easy as possible togo ahead and swipe the card and
(11:09):
start getting some people to atleast view what you worked on.
Jordan (11:14):
Yeah, yeah, I guess I didn't think about the fear of
rejection.
I think you have to be at leastlike a little bit delusional
when you send your pitches.
Just tell yourself that you'rethe best option for them and
they would be fools to notchoose you.
Kevin (11:26):
Well, there's a fear on both sides too, right Like what
if they say no, I'm going tofeel rejected.
What if they say yes?
Sometimes that's even morescary, like now I've got to,
I've got to show up, I've got tobe a good guest, I've got to do
a whole bunch of work, and thatcan be very anxiety inducing.
I remember the first time Ithink I've told this story
before, the first time I went onsmart passive income with Pat
(11:48):
Flynn.
He does hundreds of thousandsof downloads on popular episodes
which I didn't think anythingof.
That I was like great, I likePat, pat likes me, we're going
to get on and have aconversation and he's going to
share it on his podcast.
And then, a day before I wasgoing on that show, keena's like
oh, I've heard of that show,that's a really big show.
And I was like yeah, she's like, that's like you giving a
keynote in front of like an NFLsize crowd.
(12:09):
I was like, and immediatelywent to sleep.
Yeah, I immediately went intopanic mode.
I'm like oh my gosh, I don'twant to do this Terrible.
And so that was not a helpfulcomment, but scary on both sides
.
Alban (12:24):
Whenever people talk about money, spending money on
podcasting or any kind of amarketing growth, I always say,
like you know, we we it likethrowing gas on the fire.
Okay, Throwing gas on the fireis such a good image here
because if there isn't a fireyet, pouring gas on it will not
start a fire.
You only want to pour the gason a actual burning fire,
(12:47):
something that's actuallyworking already and so like.
If you want to put money intoInstagram ads, you're going to
have to create really good ads.
You know what makes really goodads on Instagram, Very similar
to what makes very goodInstagram posts.
So, you're already going to needto create the organic content.
Go and figure out which of myorganic posts are getting a lot
(13:08):
of traction and maybe they'reshort form video that highlights
my podcast.
That's going to become the adand you can get all the
experimentation out of the waywhich of these fires ever
catches on at all and which ofthem is just really stays really
small and it kind of fizzlesout.
Pour gas on the one.
That's working on its own andit's just an accelerant for what
(13:33):
you've done.
That's already working.
It's not going to be thecomplete strategy.
Kevin (13:36):
It's not going to be the complete strategy.
So the other two topics that helisted as needle movers for him
are one-on-one outreach toideal listeners, and I think I
like that because it's one ofthose things that we talked
about in our big marketingepisode that we did a couple
months ago.
We talked about doing things,when you're small, that are not
scalable, right.
Jordan (13:57):
Yeah.
Kevin (13:57):
If you're a Joe Rogan size podcast, does it make sense
for Joe to do one-on-oneoutreach to ideal listeners?
No, it doesn't at all.
Like you know, you're doinghundreds of thousands of
downloads per episode.
You're not looking for the nextone or two.
You know you're looking for thenext batch of 10,000, the next
batch of 20,000.
But when you're just startingout and you have seven people
(14:17):
who've downloaded your episode,you're looking for eight, you're
looking for nine, you'relooking for 10.
And so it is time intensive.
It's not scalable, but I dothink it can be effective for
podcasters when they're juststarting out or podcasters that
have a very niche topic that isvery specialized.
The more specific the targetaudience is for your podcast,
(14:39):
the more you should be able toidentify where those people are
online or in real life andconnect with them and share your
podcast with them.
I don't know if you guys haveanything to add to that, but the
last one was a full blog postfor each episode.
That can also be time intensive, which, again, is probably why
I feel like it's further down onthe list.
It's not easy to write a blogpost, or it hasn't been
historically.
(14:59):
Now there's some great AI tools.
There's co-host AI.
If you're a Buzzsprout customerthat generates a blog post for
you, that with very littleeffort, you can copy and paste
that and you can tweak it alittle bit just to make it your
own and publish that.
That's great SEO fuel forpeople who are searching for
stuff that you're talking aboutand maybe they find you, you
know, through your website,through your blog posts.
Then they listen to an episode.
(15:19):
They end up being a subscriber.
That is more scalable, but it'salso a little bit more time
intensive.
Jordan (15:25):
Yeah, so if you're having trouble getting your
podcast to grow or you feel likeyou're kind of like stuck or at
a plateau, like maybe thinkabout what methods that you're
using to market your podcast.
Are you just going the easiestroute or are you willing to put
in a little bit of time andeffort for these things that
like actually move the needle?
So I think that was a greatconversation.
Thanks, guys.
Alban (15:45):
Yeah, and if anybody wants ideas, we still have a
great Reddit thread where tonsof people are sharing about
their podcast and they're alsoresponding.
We're responding with uniquemarketing ideas for everybody,
but you'll just see tons ofideas in there and it will
probably help you come up withsome experiments you can run on
your show.
So we'll link that in the shownotes.
(16:06):
Come over, we'd love to chat.
Jordan (16:08):
And just a reminder we still need some responses for
our sound off question or, Iguess, sound off challenge,
where we asked you to challengeus to do something, just so we
can talk about it on the podcast.
So be sure to tap the Texasshow link in the show notes and
until next time, keep podcasting.
Kevin (16:34):
Surprise, surprise.
We're going to do a post-showon a quick cast Not so quick
after all, jordan.
I hope you, I, I want you to dolike like a three or four
seconds of like blank audio atthe end of that episode.
Okay, just like just an awkwardamount of of dead air.
Okay, so that only the peoplewho are really committed to
listening to the show.
Jordan (16:53):
Get to hear the post show so for the ones that are
like stuck washing their dishesand like can't dry their hands
off fast enough and they're likeno remember when cds used to
put like hidden tracks oh, thehidden track, and it would be
like five minutes of blank audioand you're like, what is this?
Kevin (17:08):
oh, I gotta, I gotta, you just like, let it keep playing,
and then a new song's there,yeah yeah all right hidden track
on the quick cast only becauseI want to know Albin, you ran
this, the Gate River run,jacksonville's biggest run.
It is the world.
I think it's the.
Is it the US World Championshipfor 15K?
It's a huge race in town.
Alban (17:28):
I love that we have a 15K that's big, because we get to
say it's like the world'slargest or the nation's largest
15K.
Jordan (17:36):
Wait, is it actually?
Alban (17:37):
Yeah, yes, because no one runs 15k.
Oh, I think it's just an odddistance.
Uh, people either run maybe 10kor they run a half marathon,
marathon, yeah, and it's kind ofin the middle of those two all
right.
Kevin (17:50):
So albin ran it last sunday.
I ran it last sunday.
We talked about your goal forthis year being crossing the
finish line with a bigger smilethan you have previously.
Is that true?
You ran it last time.
That's what I said your goalshould be.
Alban (18:06):
I think I need to go see if I can find the photo from
last year, because there was nota smile at the end of this one.
I have a photo of me crossingthe finish line and I look like
I'm about to die, which isaccurate.
It was probably the hardestrace of my life.
Jordan (18:23):
Why was it different from last year?
Alban (18:24):
Oh, I ran way, way, way faster, so it's 9.3 miles.
I think I'm about in the sameshape I was last year and I ran
it 13 minutes faster.
So hour 13 versus hour 26.
Hour 13.
Kevin (18:41):
So it's just under eight minutes right Under, yeah, under
eight minute miles 750something.
Alban (18:48):
And that's fast.
I mean it's way fast for me,it's way faster than I thought I
could run.
I started out kind of near thefront and my friend's there and
I'm like, oh, I'm going to tryto run without headphones.
He goes, oh, let's run together.
I'm wearing a suit, he'swearing a full suit, like as a
joke.
Yes, yeah, this guy, he writesall these goals and he has all
(19:14):
these goals which he has hislist of all his goals and
they're all like legit, normal,very ambitious goals.
He also had run a race in a suitin that list.
Jordan (19:22):
I don't see what's not ambitious about that.
Kevin (19:25):
He didn't want to choose, like the one mile fun run,
turkey run, to run in the suithe wanted to run the big 15K.
Alban (19:32):
So, I'm like, all right, this guy's way better shaped
than me, but I'm running noheadphones.
That's my goal.
He's running suit whatever,we'll stick together for like a
mile and he's running.
He runs a seven minute mile inthe beginning.
He probably can run close tosix the whole way.
So we run seven together andhe's getting hot and I'm getting
totally burned out and I keepthinking I'm going to make it to
(19:55):
5K.
Okay, I make it another mile.
I ended up sticking with himthe whole time really because I
was like I can't let a person ina full suit and tie run ahead
of me.
I have to keep up with him.
And we had a blast.
It was very, very hard, but wehad a really good time.
(20:15):
We just missed top 10% of therunners, so we didn't get a hat.
Jordan (20:19):
Oh man.
Alban (20:20):
Maybe, maybe in the future maybe next year?
Jordan (20:23):
Did you keep your promise about, like, not having
all your gadgets and gizmos allover?
Alban (20:28):
No, this is.
I wore a watch so that, uh, mywife and daughter could see
where I was, in case they cameand saw me on the racetrack, and
so they were going to try tosee where I was at any given
point.
But no podcast, no music.
Just listen to the sounds of Idon't know people running the
crowd.
Kevin (20:47):
It is a big crowd, no matter how fast or slow you run,
you're.
There's a lot of people who runthat race, and so it's a fun
one that you're being cheered onall along the way.
Alban (20:55):
Yeah, a lot of.
I mean I think I saw nobody.
I knew because everybody wasyelling hey, the guy in the suit
, the guy in the suit.
So even friends who I knowwhere they watched the race.
I was like oh, I didn't see you.
And they're like yeah, I didn'tsee you either.
And I'm like did you see a guyrunning in a suit?
Like, oh, that guy was awesome.
Jordan (21:12):
I was like yeah, I was right.
Next, to him.
Kevin (21:14):
That was my friend.
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