Podcasts Finally Added To YouTube Music!

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In this episode, Alban shares everything YouTube announced at Hot Pod Summit, the hosts talk about why NPR's student guide to podcasting should be integrated into broadcasting curriculum, and why podcasting is the loneliest medium.

View the DISCUSSION THREAD on Twitter!

HOT POD SUMMIT
Alban attended his first Hot Pod Summit in New York this year.

PODCASTS ON YOUTUBE MUSIC
YouTube announced that podcasts are coming to YouTube Music. They're looking at having a cross-platform experience with both video and audio-only podcasts. See if your channel was selected to add podcasts early!

BUZZSPROUT CONVERSATIONS: HOW TO GROW YOUR PODCAST IN 2023
Alban had a great interview with Ross from Smells Like Humans.
Listen to the episode on this feed, or watch it on YouTube!

NPR GUIDE TO STUDENT PODCASTING
For five years, NPR has created Teaching Podcasting: A Curriculum Guide for Educators and Starting Your Podcast: A Guide For Students in which they divided learning podcasting into lesson stages.

FOLLOW-UP: KEYBOARD CAT
Thanks to Sara Rosett of Wish I'd Known Then for doing a deep dive (so we didn't have to). Her research has led us to believe that yes, Keyboard Cat was compensated for the Super Bowl commercial. 
The Legend of Keyboard Cat
Meme Manager: Ben Lashes

POST SHOW: THE CONTENT IS THERE IS NO CONTENT
YouTube's Live Animals - LIVE! Page
The Frod Frog House Saga (There is now a Live FrodCam on Twitch as well!)
Emily Zugay's Brand Redesigns

Alban (50%), Kevin (26%), Jordan (22%), Ross (1%) 

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Thanks for listening and Keep Podcasting!

Episode Transcript

Kevin (00:00):
This is just a podcaster moment, I was running, listening

(00:03):
to a podcast and you know,sometimes like, it's a podcast
thing, especially like if you'relistening to old school
podcaster and I was at the time,how, like, when they say
something good or whatever,they'll ding the bell. No.
Right? You know, this is like apodcast thing like old school
podcasters. Like the people whoare just starting out in
podcasting, they used to, like,have a bell

Alban (00:20):
Jordan have you heard of this?

Kevin (00:21):
Like, when you got a hotel, the little silver bell
that's sitting on the desk,they'd put one of those on their
desk. And like, if you saidsomething good, like, that's
like how they'd give you likeapplause on the show, like
thinking that's so weird. Yeah,it's a podcast thing.
I don't think this was a thing.
It was a thing. And it still isa thing for people who are old
Thanks for the applause, dude.
school podcasters, they stillkeep the bell around. Anyway,
I'm listening to one of theseold school podcasts of recent
episodes. They're still goingand they ding the bell

(00:43):
sometimes. And so I'm joggingdown sidewalk, and I'm listening
the show, and they're justtalking. And then there's bells,
ding, ding, ding. And I'm like,That's a weird moment to think
the bell, keep running. Ding,ding, ding. Like, why do they
keep dinging the bell? Thensomebody goes on your left, and
I turned left, and there's abike behind me. And he's ringing

(01:03):
his bell. He's like, trying toget me out of the way.
I totally thought it was in mypodcast.

Jordan (01:16):
So Alban, last week, you went to Hot Pod Summit in New
York City. It seemed like areally great conference. From my
view on social media. I wasseeing it all over the place. So
I'm really interested to hearabout your experience with it.
Like what were some highlights?

Alban (01:30):
Hot Pod's a different conference. So most of the
conferences we go to are focusedon creators. They're focused on
the people who actually createshows, mostly longtail shows,
you know, not the NPR of theworld, but people who have other
jobs. And I think like Hot podfelt like lots of producers,
lots of industry insiders, lotsof people that like when someone

(01:52):
says, What do you do for aliving, they have to say
podcasting. Like that's theirfull thing. So it's a different
conference than we've normallydone. And this is the first time
we've ever gone. So I can'trelate it to other years. But
there's some announcements, Ihad to meet lots of cool people
I met Nilay Patel, the host ofDecoder, who last episode, I had

(02:13):
to cut off from my podcast feed,right?

Jordan (02:16):
Yeah, I was gonna say like, that was probably like a
huge moment for you. Because youknow, it was revealed last
episode, that Decoder is one ofyour favorite podcasts.

Kevin (02:24):
So did you open the conversation with that? Hey, I
just deleted you.

Alban (02:29):
that that is something for me to work on.

Kevin (02:36):
Do you just start revealing all this stuff you
know about them way too soon?

Alban (02:40):
I'll be honest, Kevin, that does come into my brain.
Not to like a great extent, butlike we've met listeners of this
show. I know on the other side,like it is a little bit
unnerving to know, oh, thesepeople know about stuff we
talked about. And then you'relike, what did I accidentally
reveal over hundreds ofepisodes? Then all of a sudden,
on the other side? I'm like, Oh,I love the podcast. And I think

(03:04):
you do a great job with this.
And let me tell you about this.
And they're like, Okay.

Jordan (03:09):
Yeah, I feel like I'm like slowly working up to go say
hi to Payne Lindsey at podcastmoment, because he was at
Podcast Movement in Dallas, andI was too scared to go say hi,
because I'm a really big fan.
And I know he's gonna be atPodcast Movement Evolutions. So
I gotta I gotta work up to it. Ifeel it.

Alban (03:25):
I think part of it is like, I think they just want to
be treated like normal people.

Kevin (03:29):
No, I disagree. No. I think they want to be treated
like super celebrities.

Jordan (03:34):
No

Kevin (03:35):
Yeah, that's what they want.

Jordan (03:36):
They want you to fangirl.

Kevin (03:39):
I mean, they're podcasters. Nobody treats him
like somebody. Nobody recognizeshim in a restaurant. So I think
just to give them thatexperience for once in their
life.

Jordan (03:46):
Oh, my gosh, you're right. Like that would be so
cool.

Alban (03:49):
Do you think that would be cool?

Jordan (03:50):
Yeah.

Alban (03:51):
If somebody came up to you at like a Chili's. And
they're like, oh, my gosh,Jordan,I've been listening to
you for years.

Jordan (03:57):
I'd never be at a Chili's. But if I was in like
the VIP section of-

Kevin (04:04):
Yeah, and somebody pushes the velvet rope aside and forces
their way to you.

Jordan (04:08):
No, but if someone like came up in like, let's say, I
was at like, the mall orsomething, and someone's like,
Oh, hey, you're Jordan. Like, Ilove this podcast, or I love
whatever, I would be pumped.

Alban (04:19):
I think I would be like, a little bit surprised. It would
be like,

Kevin (04:24):
Yeah, but surprised in the best way. Yeah, this is what
podcasters want. They want toconnect with their fans, and
they never get a chance to do ittrue.

Alban (04:30):
Well, I can tell you, from my experience, nobody wants
to connect to me as a fan. WhenI show up as the fan and I'm
like, I love your show. They'relike red flag, like get this guy
away. That has been myexperience. I've had now two of
those. So

Kevin (04:45):
That might just be how you feel because you didn't go
all in with it. Like if you haveyou have to rush them you have
to be like, sweating and youhave to be very nervous. You
have to like demand a selfie andlots of hugs and just go nuts
and then you've got to pullother people in. Look, look, do
you see who this is?

Alban (05:00):
Do you want to know an interesting story I learned
Yeah, but that's an extremeexample. But I do think it could
yesterday about fans in like the70s, like late 70s. Stephen King
is now a best selling author,but still, like small enough
be a goal of yours that if youmeet the podcasts, or that you'd
that he doesn't have a securitydetail. And he like walks out of
this late night show. And allthese people are there to see
him and like, one guy's like, Igot to get a photo, I gotta get

(05:20):
a photo. And he's like, lookskind of nuts. Nuts enough that
Stephen King remembers it yearslater, and he writes it down.
You know, Hey, from Steven toMark. And it was weird enough
that he remembered his name wasMark Chapman. And then like,
six, seven years later, JohnLennon was killed by Mark
Chapman after getting hissignature. And then so that ends

(05:41):
up being when Stephen King islike, I'm going to write a book
about an author who getskidnapped by one of his fans. So
after I had this weirdexperience, where I feel like I
came off a little bit weird,then I'm like, looking at
stories of authors that pay usthat I'm like, yeah, that's,
that's no, that's how I seefandom. So I feel like I'm a bit

(06:01):
wary about their rushing, Kevin.
like that after yourinteraction, it's so memorable,
that they have to write yourname down.

Jordan (06:13):
Like, look out for them.

Alban (06:20):
If they're writing it down, like, oh, this person's a
good person to go chat with,that'd be great.

Kevin (06:25):
I don't think we need to get into why they're writing it
down as long as they write itdown.

Alban (06:30):
Be like, Hey, add this person to the like, Do not
contact list like see if we canmake sure we get a restraining
order set up. Anyway, so it wasa good conference. And the big
moment for the event, at leastfor me was so in the afternoon,
there's going to be a talk aboutdo you need to make video for
your podcast? And then like thetalk right before it is, hey,

(06:53):
it's gonna be a conversationwith chi Chao, head of YouTube,
podcasting, and Steve McClendon,who's the podcast product at
Google. So kind of the Googleside and the YouTube side, and
they get up and they're like,Okay, so I guess we'll make an
announcement. The announcementis that podcasts are coming to
YouTube music in like, a coupleof weeks. Okay, let's chat about

(07:15):
that. And then they just startedtelling us all sorts of plans
about what's going to happen.
And I was like, Man, I wouldlove to be the person who's
about to moderate this talkabout video podcasting, because
the interest levels just wentthrough the roof.

Jordan (07:28):
It was a big deal. I mean, it just kind of like blew
up on Twitter and on the likenew spaces and stuff like that,
because it's not like the otherannouncements that YouTube has
made where it's like, yeah, likevideo podcasting, video
podcasting, because they leanedmore into possibly supporting
like RSS and all these thingsthat we were like, Oh, please,
please YouTube, do this.

Alban (07:48):
I mean, have gone to like multiple of these YouTube
announcement talk. I mean, notannouncement, because every time
it seems like there's gonna bean announcement, and then I go,
and they're interviewingsomebody who has a podcast on
YouTube. And they're basicallyasking them, What do you love
about YouTube, and then they runthrough the comments section is
awesome. And there's like sevenways to monetize on YouTube. And

(08:10):
people love seeing the video.
And it's interesting, becausethen people go and they listen
to it and audio. And like, Iheard this at podcast move
evolutions, I went to a versionof this in London at the podcast
show, we went to PodcastMovement, and they had a similar
talk. And, you know, most ofthem kind of felt like, we're
not ready to say anything. Andthis is a real announcement. So
YouTube music is like a separateapp to listen to music. And when

(08:34):
podcasts come now, it's gonna bean audio first experience.
There'll be backgroundlistening. So you can like lock
your phone and still listen topodcasts, library controls. And
at some point, though, I'm notsure how far out this is. Their
goal is to have a unifiedexperience. So Jordan, remember
when we went to PodcastMovement, and somebody talked

(08:56):
about like, oh, you know, Ialways tell people, if they're
watching, make sure yousubscribe to the podcast and
Kai, Chuck, like, interruptshe's like, yeah, that's not
that's great. Like, I don't lovethat we're doing that, that
people have to run off to Appleand Spotify to listen. Well,
their goal now is we want tohave a unified experience where
someone might start watching avideo, and then you drive into

(09:16):
work, and you like, listen toit. And then you watch maybe
your lunch break, and then youfinish on drive home, like it's
kind of a back and forthexperience, kind of similar to
what Spotify is trying to donow.

Kevin (09:29):
So are you saying that all the content that will be
available on YouTube music willalso be available on YouTube

Alban (09:34):
I did not understand that for sure. Because they said the
proper?
Yeah, if YouTube sticks withwhat they've done in the past,
announcement is, is coming toYouTube music. But then when
they talk about a unifiedexperience, they talked about a
lot of stuff focusing onYouTube. It sounded like there
so you have to reach a certainlevel of engagement before you
is going to be stuff on YouTubeas well. So I didn't get 100%
qualify for monetization. Butthat doesn't necessarily mean
clarification there. They didmention that they're looking at
that they don't monetize youbefore them, they just don't pay

(09:57):
ways to support RSS. So this wasSteve Mclendon, and he said
you anything. Right, they mightstill put ads or other stuff,
initially, they're going to tryto use RSS to bring shows into
you're just not going to get ashare of it until you reach a
YouTube. So that would be reallygood. If we're trying to help
everybody on Buzzsprout get in,does sound like there's some
plans for that, though, thoseseem further away than this
YouTube Music announcement,there's audio ads that are going

(10:20):
to be coming to YouTube andpodcasts on YouTube music. So
they said they paid out, I think$50 billion over the last three
years to creators. So it'll bevery cool. If we can see some of
that money start flowing to theaudio content.
certain level of engagement. Andthen they'll start sharing

(10:50):
revenue with you.
Yeah, those numbers feel a biteasier when we're talking about
like podcasts versus video. So Iforget now what the exact number
was on YouTube is like, we hadlike 1000 subscribers and like
4000 hours of watch time.

Kevin (11:04):
I think it was 4000 hours of watch time. And it might have
been in a certain period of timetwo or 3000 subscribers, that's
back when we're okay.

Alban (11:12):
So it was an "or".

Kevin (11:13):
Yeah, it was an "or".

Alban (11:14):
Well, listen time is so much higher, when we do the same
piece of content we have as aYouTube video. And as a podcast.
And people who listen to thepodcast, they're listening for
40 minutes plus, sometimes, youknow, pretty standard, they're
we're getting really long listentimes. And if that's the case,
then I could see it'd be mucheasier getting to that amount of

(11:35):
engagement. So whatever thatengagement number is 5000 out
4000 hours and you know, threemonth period, or whatever it is,
I think that'll be quite a biteasier to hit if they use a
similar metric. Now, it may bedifferent because ad load on
five minute videos on YouTube isa little bit easier to stick two
ads in front of it. But if youdid two ads every five minutes
on a podcast like that would beway too intense.

Jordan (11:57):
I wonder what their plan is for that. Like if they're
going to make adjustments forpodcasts.

Alban (12:02):
And they have to have the ads too. Yeah, like I'm not sure
if there's enough ads right nowenough people are trying to run
ads that YouTube could say, Hey,we've every podcast and anybody
that watches them on YouTube,we're going to stick to ads
every five minutes. And don'tworry, we have like unlimited
Hello Fresh and like better helpads and they're just gonna keep
flowing in.

Jordan (12:22):
Oh, that would suck.
Man, thinking about that thoughwith like, having host read ads
you know, as that are like bakedin to a podcast. And on top of
that you have like YouTube ads.
Ah, it sounds like a nightmare.
I don't know why people listenon YouTube.

Kevin (12:37):
Yeah, that's the weird thing, right is like right now
all the content that's onYouTube, you have no choice but
to either pay YouTube to getYouTube premium to get rid of
the ads, or you put up with theads, because that contents not
available anywhere else. It'slike everything that's on
YouTube is exclusive. But in thepodcast world that's different,
especially if they do RSSingestion. Like you will have
the option of going listening onApple podcasts or Spotify, or

(12:58):
any third party independentpodcast player. And you'll get
the same content without an ad.
I Spotify is a little different.
They might put some ads, youknow, pre and post, but they're
definitely not putting them inthe middle of podcast episodes.
I don't know what YouTube's planis around that. But I'm sure
they're sensitive to that. Like,obviously, if the ad load is too
high, you might find somethingthat you'd like there or use
their discoverability featuresto find new shows. But then you

(13:18):
probably move off platformpretty quickly, which exactly
what Kai said is like, we do notwant them to move on platform.

Jordan (13:24):
I kind of wonder if that is what they're going to do.
Because YouTube announced thatthere are some creators that are
able to designate their videosas podcasts like they're
integrating a podcast tab ontothe YouTube channel. And some
creators are being selected tobe able to experiment with this
right now. And so if you candesignate certain, like videos

(13:47):
or audio or something like that,as a podcast, I wonder if that's
gonna kind of flag it in theYouTube system. Like don't put
ads in the middle of this.

Alban (13:55):
So one thing, they did talk about that experiment a
little bit. So it sounds likethey're doing two things. I
mean, their flat gang playlistsas a podcast, and then they're
using that to populate thisslash podcast page, YouTube
slash podcast page. I've seen alot of our stuff show up there.
So they're definitelyassociating us with podcasting.

(14:16):
So no more like tutorial videosthat were showing up there on
the podcast page. Yeah. And thenthere was also some content. You
know, it was like someBuzzsprout conversation. So
those were true. You know, Iwould say it was podcasting
content, like those are actualpodcast interviews. So they're
pulling that in. And they said,they're running that experiment
so that they could get better atdesignating videos as podcasts

(14:38):
like which ones are podcastswhich aren't. So there might be
also some decision around like,hey, when do we put in ads or
not? But they're definitelytrying to help recommend like
people who are listening topodcasts on YouTube or watching
podcasts on YouTube, they willstart getting more of that type
of content.

Kevin (14:54):
So Alban, did they talk at all about like, what they're
going to do with stats andstuff? Because it sounds like
even if they do RSS ingestThey're going to be re-hosting,
right. So like on the Buzzsproutside, we wouldn't see those
plays, where they give us a wayto bring some of those in to
Buzzsprout to display in thestats dashboard, or they want
just people to log into theirYouTube dashboard to see that

Alban (15:12):
So I don't remember if it was Kai, or Steve that said
stuff.
this, but they started runningthrough all the stats that I
guess they were thinking about.
So we're basically like, hey,it's everything that said,
YouTube studio, how many plays?
Where did those plays come fromdemographic data play through
data? So you can see like, dropoff points? What features inside

(15:32):
of YouTube? Are people using tofind your content? What language
are people using, you know, orlistening? I guess that's really
only for video where they'retranscribing and then
translating on the fly. Butbasically everything that's in
the YouTube studio, the shortname and all that stuff. And
then they were like, and whatother steps would people want?
And I was like, like, those arethe stats. You know, for years,

(15:52):
all that we're getting on thepodcasting side are the user
agent and the IP address. And sowe kind of figure out stuff
about the displays, but we don'tget to know play through data.
And we don't get to knowdemographic data. The benefit
with Google is this is all firstparty data for them because
you're logged into an account,and you've given them a credit
card, so they know who you are.
You've already shared all thatwith them. So they're able to

(16:13):
say like, oh, yeah, this is a 36year old male. Okay,
interesting. And they can sharethat over to you.

Jordan (16:20):
So with Google podcasts, I know that recently, like it
had disappeared, and then itcame back. And so I'm not sure
if YouTube Music is going to bereplacing Google podcasts, or is
that staying in there? Did theytalk about that at all?

Alban (16:33):
I feel like the fact that Steve was on stage. You know, he
answered that question. I mean,just as a traditional
podcatcher, I like that they'reusing the formal name
podcatcher. Instead, it's a itis a traditional podcatcher. And
it serves a different audience.
So it's still there. You know,they killed off Google Play a
long time ago, Google Playmusic, podcasts, and then they
made Google podcasts, they'renot just going to drop this and

(16:56):
now go over to YouTube music. Soit sounds like both of those
will still be alive. And onething that's kind of interesting
for us, in particular, as peoplewho have a YouTube channel,
there was a period where we wereuploading video versions of
Buzzcast, to our YouTubechannel, we're uploading all
sorts of different content. Andwe talked to somebody who, you

(17:18):
know, knew a lot about YouTubewas like, you're probably
confusing the algorithm a bitwith all these different content
types. So split it up intochannels. And so you'll notice
like a lot of really bigcreators have tons of different
channels. One thing they saidwas, there is a possibility
someday that your YouTubechannel could have like a

(17:38):
podcast tab. So that'd be kindof a cool thing to do. Like you
go see your biggest creators,the ones that you really enjoy.
And then you know, videos andshorts. And now there's also
tablets. And if you want tolisten to or watch a long
podcast, here it is.

Jordan (17:53):
When I was looking into the beta testing of the, you
know, assigning new podcastslike in your YouTube studio,
when I was looking into that, itsounded like a channel could
have multiple different podcasttabs from what they were saying,
which that would be really cooltoo. Like, one channel could
have multiple podcasts assignedto it.

Alban (18:14):
That'd be interesting.
Yeah, I didn't, I didn't hearthem say anything about that.
But I would trust all the stuffthat you're reading, probably
more than I would trust mymemory of this.

Jordan (18:23):
But you're trusting my memory of me reading it.

Kevin (18:27):
I'm wondering about all these services that exist out
there, like Headliner beingprobably one of the biggest ones
that were a big part of theservice that they offer is to
take an audio file, create avideo out of it, and then push
it to YouTube? Is this adeathblow for somebody like
headliner?

Alban (18:39):
I don't know. I mean, I think there's some podcasts that
are going to be in YouTube musicin like a few weeks. And so my
guess is those are ones that arealready have like a video
component on YouTube proper. Andso I'm thinking of like the
Huberman lab, or something, thateverything is already there.

Kevin (18:59):
Well, when you say everything is already there, you
mean, there is a video versionof that?

Alban (19:02):
Correct.

Kevin (19:03):
But there's not like an audio only version. And I'm not
familiar with YouTube music. Solike, in YouTube music is there,
I heard that there's like atoggle, where, like, if there's
a music video associated withit, you can like toggle the
video on and off, but like,

Alban (19:15):
I've never used YouTube music. Maybe I should have done
that as some prep. But yeah,I've never used it. I wonder if
I have access? Because I pay forYouTube itself, like YouTube
premium. So I don't watch theads.

Kevin (19:27):
Yeah, my understanding.
And maybe we shouldn't even besaying this since I don't know.
It's, it's in fact, because Ihaven't used it either.

Alban (19:33):
This is a podcast, you're allowed to like only be 80%
right. I think that's allowed.

Kevin (19:38):
We'll operate in that window of grace. But my
understanding is that there's atoggle to flip back and forth
between if there's videoassociated, I want to see it and
I can turn it off if I'm likedriving in my car or something
or I'm operating in lock screenmode. And so I think a lot of
the music that's on there. Theydo have like a video version of
that same song, but by default,it's like a music first. It's an
audio first experience and thenyou have to do something to it.

(20:00):
want the video to pop up? And sowhen you say like Huberman lab
already has everything thatexists, but I don't know if
they're separate files, or ifYouTube would just take that
video and just play the audiotrack only, I don't know how
that how that all comestogether. But I guess that's
what we're gonna have to waitand see.

Alban (20:13):
This just sounds like kind of like a technical problem
for Google to figure out. Whatdo you think they're doing? If
I'm watching a video on YouTube,and I locked my screen? Am I
still downloading that full bigvideo? And it's my phone's just
utilizing the audio? Or is itactually flipping it to a
different file?

Kevin (20:30):
I don't know. But I would assume that somebody that scale
of YouTube would have figuredout a way to switch the stream.
Because that's a big chunk ofbandwidth that's not necessary
at that point. And I know theyalready automatically up and
down sample the video qualitydepending on your connection
speed, right? So if you'realready doing that, it's very
similar technology to be ableto, oh, I turned off the stream.
I don't need this part of thedata anymore. Just start sending

(20:52):
me the audio stream. Yeah, thatmakes sense. Well, we will see,
we will see, I mean, it soundslike anytime a big player enters
the industry, the mostoptimistic view is that they're
going to introduce new people,to podcasts. And that's always a
good thing. And so that happenedwith Spotify, despite the fact
that we do talk about from timeto time some things that Spotify
are doing that we don't love.
And no one will argue thebenefit that they brought to

(21:13):
podcasting overall, which theyintroduced a lot more people to
podcasting and and so,optimistically I hope YouTube
can do the same thing. And makea lot more people, fans of
podcasts and listeners, whoknows where those people choose
to listen, whether they stickwith listening on YouTube, or
they move off to another app, aslong as they're listening.
Ultimately, that's, that's thegoal. Like we're creating
content we're putting out in theworld, and we want people to

(21:34):
listen to it and benefit fromit, whether it's learning or
entertainment or whatever. Andalso as podcasters, we have
control. So if YouTube startsdoing something with our content
that we don't love, we don'thave to put our content there.
And so podcasting is great, andit's gonna continue to thrive.
And this hopefully, is justanother way to get more people
excited about podcasts.

Jordan (21:58):
We released on YouTube, a video of Buzzsprout
conversation between Alban andRoss from the Smells Like Humans
podcast, and this is such agreat conversation. So we're
going to be dropping it as abonus episode in the Buzzcast
feed this week.

Ross (22:16):
I feel like it's a pretty lonely performance medium,
because you don't get anyfeedback, you have no audience
reaction, and my whole life hasbeen geared toward reading the
audience. Is this working? Isthis not working as a podcast?
Other than seeing what downloadsyou get? You don't really know
if people like it? You know,it's it's kind of it's kind of

(22:38):
weirdly isolating in a way. AndI wish I wish there was more of
that feedback. So that feedbackwhenever I get it keeps me
going. That's the only thingright now. Well, that and the
millions of dollars I'm making?
Did we? Was I supposed tomention that? Yeah.

Jordan (22:56):
There was so many things in this conversation that I
thought were just of such value,especially how Ross talked a lot
about how isolated podcastingcan feel. And there were all
these themes that he talkedabout with like isolation or,
you know, speaking into like avoid, and it was so funny
hearing him talk about that,because I was just like, wow,

(23:16):
I've been in that exact place,I've felt that exact thing. If I
don't get feedback from people,even with like, however many
downloads, it just feels solonely to be a podcast, or
sometimes, which I think is kindof a unifying thing. And it
makes you feel less lonely. Whenyou hear people talk about that.

Kevin (23:33):
Yeah. And it's hard to connect with your audience. I
mean, we've we've been runningexperiments lately, with
starting Twitter threads. Forevery episode, we put this value
for value lightning paymentsystem into Buzzcast. So that
people can send us booths andinteract with us that way, we've
asked people to email us andit's pretty easy to know how to
email us because if you don'tknow the email address for the
show, you can always [e-mail]. And

(23:54):
it'll get to us. And so evenwith all those avenues of
connecting with our audience, itdoes still feel lonely
sometimes, like, that's why weget so excited when we go to a
conference. And people come upand they say, Hey, I listen to
your show. And this was great,and yada, yada. That is hard,
especially like for mostpodcasters that don't get to
attend conferences. And if theydo attend a conference or just
walking around with a namebadge, they don't have a booth
that people can come find them.
A lot of people don't haveTwitter threads, some people are

(24:16):
not into the lightning stuff, ortheir audience isn't like
bleeding edge tech enough toeven use it if they did it. So
it can be hard. And I think it'ssomething that we need to just
remember like as podcasters it'sthere's nothing wrong with you.
There's nothing broken about howyou're doing it. It says this is
something that we all strugglewith as podcasters and any
avenue that you have, with,like, however you interact with

(24:37):
people online, whether it beprimarily email, if there's a
special social channel thatyou'd like, whether it be
Instagram, or Tiktok, orFacebook, or Twitter or
whichever one, like pointingpeople to that. Yeah, I feel for
him, it can't be lonely and thatthat did strike a chord with me
as well.

Alban (24:54):
Yeah, I mean, we've tried a lot of stuff to get more
interaction with people wholisten to this podcast and I I
always really enjoy it like nomatter, especially when just
kind of somebody who's new, youknow, we have kind of like our
five people who always send us aboost every week. And so we've
got a little community there.
And then when we started postingon Twitter, there was like a
whole new group of people thatwe'd never engaged with. And

(25:14):
then we went to pod fest, westarted meeting a bunch of
people who we'd never metbefore, who listened to the
show. So there's so manydifferent avenues. But we're in
the world of podcasting. And onthe whole, like, we have a good
listenership a few 1000, thatepisode or listening, where if
you've got a show, that's, youknow, maybe only 150, you could

(25:34):
be at the numbers where you haveone or two reviews on Apple, and
you don't really get manyemails, and you don't have a
sponsor. And there's somethingemotional about that. Like,
there's something you feelemotionally, there's almost
like, Is this even real? Like,am I just talking to nobody, you
know, I pick up a phone eachweek, and I make a call and I

(25:55):
leave a voicemail, but like,same and listen to the
voicemail. And so all thoseinteractions means so much to
people, because it's not justyour time, and your effort and
the value, then all the content,blah, blah, blah. It's also just
like, it's an emotional thingthat you're doing to like,
you're putting yourself outthere, and you're sharing your
opinions. And we desperatelywant to know, there's people who

(26:16):
find it valuable. And so Ialways recommend if there's a
show you like, reach out to thecreators and let them know,
don't go across the podcastingconference. But you know, send
them in email. My experience hasalways been that people are very
receptive when you do that.
Absolutely.

Jordan (26:34):
I mean, it's wild. I know, some podcasters that, you
know, they'll they'll get like acouple 100 downloads of their
podcast episode. And they justhave like a huge community. They
have people writing in andinteracting with them all the
time. And then there's otherpodcasters, who get like, 10s of
1000s of downloads everyepisode, and it's crickets. And

(26:55):
so it's something that everyoneexperiences, and no matter how
big your podcast is, and I thinkyou alluded to that in the
interview Alban, and it was, Ifelt that very deeply, because
on my personal podcast, there'sthere's so many downloads, but I
have the least interactiveaudience. I don't know, I can
even dream of having. Likenobody writes in.

Alban (27:16):
Kind of makes sense, though, right? Most of the
people who are listening to yourpodcast or off a lot of them are
people who are like, Alright,I'm winding down for the night,
I'm getting ready to go to bed.

Jordan (27:25):
Yeah, it's like once a year that I get an email. And it
goes into, I have a littlefolder in my email inbox and
it's just labeled fan mail. Andit's like, four emails. And it's
just a meaningful thing. Andlike, when I'm feeling really
bad, I'll just read those.

Alban (27:40):
I met somebody this weekend, after Hot Pod, I stayed
for this other conference. Sothis was not a work thing. This
was just people who are writingonline, and I knew a handful of
people's names. So I went, andsomebody I met there, she just
launched a clothing brand. Andshe was like, every single
comment that was like writingand telling me how awesome the

(28:00):
shirt was how much I loved it.
She was like, I screenshottedevery one of them. Well, and I
have so many examples. Like I'vesaved plenty of these examples
for people of creators who arelike, I do need the positive
affirmation. You know, even ifit's a really big show, it's not
like egotistical for them towant to hear, yes, this actually
lands because during aconversation, I can look and

(28:22):
see, oh, somebody enjoys this,or they're not into it anymore.
We're podcasting. We don't getthat immediate feedback. And so
we are really desperate to getit. And I think is part of the
audience. Like, that's kind ofthe deal, right? Like, if we're
getting something for free, andwe really enjoy it, I think the
least we can do is reach out andsay, Hey, thumbs up, like, that
was a great episode. I reallyappreciate it.

Jordan (28:45):
I always preferred stage to like film acting. And it's
because stage had the instantgratification. You know, I could
hear if the audience waslaughing, I could hear if
audience was like clapping orlike really into it and stuff
like that. And Ross talks aboutthis too, because he, you know,
has experience in theater. Andit's so funny because like, I

(29:05):
tried doing, like film thingslike that, and I hated it.
Because you do all this work.
And then just like nothing,you'd get nothing. And now that
I'm thinking about it, likethat's so similar to podcasting,
where it's similar to film likeyou do all this work, you put it
out and then you don't know howpeople are gonna react to it.

Kevin (29:22):
Yeah, should be a new feature of like Riverside or
Squadcast, it uses AI to detecta joke. And then it
automatically inserts like alaugh track behind you.

Jordan (29:30):
It rings a bell

Kevin (29:32):
Rings the bell, get that audience laugh track in there.
It'd be great. I would turn thaton every time we record. You
guys meet make some really goodpoints. I mean, podcasting is a
different beast. It's very muchconsumed, like on demand and
like a passive listeningexperience. And so I think about
oftentimes I'm listening to apodcast and I want to contribute
to the conversation. So I wantto say something like that is a

(29:53):
really good point. Or I want tolike share a little bit of
knowledge that I have aboutsomething they're talking about
or something but even if theyare avenues do that even if
they're I know there's a Twitterthread associated with this
episode or I know that they'reusing the boosting system. So I
could drop in a comment, I mightbe in the middle of a run, I
might be on a drive. That'susually where I am, when I'm
listening to stuff. I'm notsitting at a computer watching
something. And so I know there'sbeen a lot of excitement around

(30:16):
this possibility of having crossapp comments in podcasting. And
I do think it's good. I'm not,I'm not saying it won't be. But
I don't think it's going to bethe same engagement that we see
on like YouTube videos, becausewhen you're in, you're engaged
in a YouTube video, you're fullyengaged. Even if you're watching
on your mobile device, it'sstill your full attention is on
that video. And so nobody'sWell, hopefully, nobody is
watching YouTube videos whenyou're driving a car. And you

(30:38):
might be a passenger in a car,but you have the ability to give
it your full attention. Oryou're watching it behind a
computer so I can drop a commentthat's easy to do. And in the
podcasting world, regardless ofhow good the technology becomes,
I just don't think it's going toever have the same level of
engagement because we areusually doing other things while
we're listening to podcasts.

Alban (30:55):
Yeah, I think that's actually why these video
podcasts have been, you know,relatively popular. Remember,
that was like the first thing.
When Joe Rogan went to Spotify,he was like, Man, I really miss
the comment section on YouTube.
Because, you know, while most ofhis plays were happening on the
podcast, he wasn't gettingfeedback on those, but being
able to go to that video, andthen scroll down. And people

(31:18):
were like, Oh, my gosh, what anincredible point where she said
this, and you could link to it.
And then other people are likegoing back and forth. And you
know, talking about it. There'stons of jokes and stuff, I'm
sure that had to be reallyaffirming as a creator to go in
and see that, especially if youhave a background at comedy.
You're used to getting tons offeedback from the audience. And
then you go to podcasting. Andit's almost zero except for you

(31:40):
too. And so I think that wasprobably really important.

Jordan (31:48):
So I didn't know this.
But for the last like fiveyears, NPR has been doing a
student podcast challenge inwhich teachers are able to have
their students learn how tocreate a podcast and submit the
podcast to NPR for like acompetition. And they have two
versions of the competition,like they have a college
version. And then they also havegrades five through 12. When I
was looking into it, I saw thatthey had created NPR had created

(32:11):
a curriculum for teachers andthen also created sort of like a
learn on your own curriculum forkids. And what's really cool
about this is they broke it upinto like different lesson
plans. And they have like howlong these lessons are going to
take. So the teachers canintegrate teaching, like how to
start a podcast into their classday and things like that. So

(32:32):
they have like a podcastingoverview that takes like 60
minutes, and then they have likechoosing a topic and playing the
story. And what's really cool,if you look at these is that
they have pulled examples, likethey tell the teacher, like have
the students listen to fiveminutes of this podcast, and
then discuss it. And here's thethings that you can discuss. I
was looking at this and I wasjust like, Man, this would

(32:52):
actually be really fun to dowith my kids.

Kevin (32:55):
Yeah, that's amazing. I think you know, so many,
especially high schools havelike curriculum around media or
video. I mean, they've beendoing it since I was in high
school, there was like a videoclass you could take in my high
school. So that's like oldschool, VHS, huge camcorders
that we could barely hold on ourshoulders. You know, think about
how far the technology has comein that time. But I know most
schools are doing some sort ofvideo classes. And some of them

(33:18):
take it to the extreme wherethere's like a morning video
show every morning that the kidswatch when they get into school.
And that's like how they domorning announcements. But I've
heard very few schools that areactually publishing a podcast.
It's something I talked to mykids about doing at their high
school. Like there's so manygreat sports things that you
could cover and news aroundschool and upcoming events. So
yeah, have like a weekly podcastthat you could be doing your
school. It's so easy. It's likewhy are we teaching kids video,

(33:40):
like the first step should belike teaching them really good
audio production. And then likethe, you know, 102 class or the
201 class, could be you moveinto video if you're interested
in doing that. Yeah, and I thinkit's so much easier. And it can
be longer to like those videoshows. Since the production
value is so high, it's so hardto edit, edit video and
everything. You have to cut itall down and fit it into two or
three minutes. But like a weeklypodcast for what's going on at

(34:00):
your school, you could do a fullinterview with like, you know,
the girl who scored you know,this amazing goal at the
lacrosse game last week orsomething. And so she could tell
a little bit of her lacrossejourney, or something like I
just love giving people theopportunity to learn a skill,
learn a little bit aboutjournalism, learn about how like
doing a good interview. Andpodcasting facilitates that so
well, so much easier than whereall the focus right now seems to

(34:22):
be around printing this videoproductions in high school. So I
love that they're putting thistogether and I hope teachers
grab a hold of it.

Jordan (34:28):
I had discovered that NPR has like an NPR training and
it's really geared towards likejournalism in a video or radio
kind of space. And it wasn'tlike there are some things you
can take away for podcasting,certainly. But the thing that
was so cool about thiscurriculum that they created is
that you know it is only forpodcasting and so they have

(34:49):
information in there like how toget good tape. They have
information on like how to askreally good interview questions
and like how to practiceinterviewing and things to do
before you go to an interviewduring the interview, and then
after the interview, like juststeps, they have like a
checklist of steps that you needto take to make sure that you
get a really good interview. Andthere's just so many things like
that, that are just wonderful toread through.

Alban (35:11):
And you're you're learning from people who have a
journalism background, they've abroadcast background, you know,
there's a lot of stuff thatpodcasts he has made so much
more accessible. But there are alot of skills that we really
could learn from people who werenot classically trained, but
were actually trained ininterview styles and, you know,

(35:31):
actually worked in a realstudio. Like there's tons of
stuff that amateur podcasterslike ourselves that we have not
really learned, we may know,like, hey, it doesn't have to be
a big deal. Just get a Samsungcue to you. We're very good at
taking the barriers down. Butyou know, somebody who's done
1000s of interviews over theyears could tell you, Oh, here's

(35:53):
how I warm guests up and getthem into a mood to actually
talk about something. So theyactually talk to Nilay Patel
about was about how actually, alot of Decoder is built around
the fact that he's talking topeople who always have media
training. You know, I've neverinterviewed somebody who had
media training, who was tryingto only answer the questions
they wanted to. And so I askedher a couple of questions about

(36:13):
the show. And he was like, oh,it's pretty much because I know,
I'm only getting 20 minutes, andit's super locked in what
they're gonna talk about. And soI have to do the intro and do
certain questions to like, kindof pull the rest of the story
out. But those are things thatdo not occur to us maybe as a
bit more on the hobbyist side ofpodcasting.

Jordan (36:32):
There was something similar. I actually listened to
it quite a while ago, it'scalled Gimlet Academy and Gimlet
did something sort of similar.
So I think if you looked at thisNPR guide, and then you also
were to supplement that with theGimlet Academy podcast, you
know, I think it's like sixepisodes or something like that.
But they go through the processof how they create these

(36:53):
documentary style podcasts. And,you know, they go through, like,
here's how to pitch a goodpodcast, here's how you name it.
Here's how you get good tapewith like interviews and like,
we have to make sure that we getthese stories. And we go into
these interviews with like apunch list of things that we
need to have in order to likeshape this narrative. And it was
also really interesting tolisten to that

Alban (37:17):
How the news admits that they shaped the narratives?
Yeah, I agree.

Jordan (37:22):
So if you want to look at the NPR guide to student
podcasting, they have thecurriculum guide for educators
and then also the guide forstudents. I will have links in
the show notes. We have someBuzzboosts. First is from Mere
Mortals podcast, I'm 100%, nonton Spotify Premium. Any tips for

(37:43):
getting access to Adobe Podcastbeta? I signed up for it but no
dice. Oh, I'm surprised by that.

Alban (37:48):
Yeah, that was actually my experience as well. So I
signed up for Adobe Podcastbeta, and I didn't get access. I
wonder if it's because you guyscan see the you use Audition?
Did you have to log in with yourlike Adobe account when you
submitted it?

Jordan (38:02):
I did. So maybe that was it. But I didn't have that
before. Back when it was projectShasta, they said that they
would email me when the beta wasready. And they never did that.
So I just assumed it was open toeverybody. So I guess it's kind
of a correction to last episodewhen I said that I thought it
was available to everybody,because obviously it's not. So

(38:24):
maybe if you have an Adobeaccount, like a paid Adobe
account, it expedites theprocess, but I'm not really
sure. Alban, don't you have apaid Adobe account?

Alban (38:32):
I don't think so. Maybe I do. That's not a good sign.
Because I don't use it.

Jordan (38:36):
It's expensive too, so.
And then he continues. Oh, anddid you say transcripts were
generated within as well,Jordan? Does this mean you can
export them as SRTs? Kyrin.
Actually, you cannot generatetranscripts within Adobe podcast
beta, which is what I thoughtwas really strange because it
transcribes the audio for you toedit as a sort of word document

(38:58):
format. So the fact that youcan't export the transcribed
audio as a transcription is veryweird to me. So yeah, at this
point, no, but hopefully, in thefuture, you could do that.

Kevin (39:08):
Yeah, that sounds like just something they just didn't
get to yet. But that's kind of ano-brainer feature. Right? Yeah.
So it'll be out at some point.

Alban (39:13):
And then we've got three boosts from Dave Jones. I
actually thought this was superinteresting. Do you guys notice
the dates? So Dave has his firstboost. 13 days ago, two of them,
and then one that's 10 days ago?
So it's interesting to see thatyou know, he took a little
break.

Kevin (39:29):
Yeah, he couldn't make it through the whole episode.

Alban (39:33):
Yeah I gotta save it for later.

Kevin (39:34):
Got to go like, get some Gatorade or something was
wearing them out.

Alban (39:37):
So really love subscriptions. well designed.
Great job, guys. Thank you,Dave. Key to keeping your CPA
happy. So remember, we had thiswhole conversation about doing
your taxes, and Dave Jones worksat a CPA. The key to keeping
your CPA happy is to give themall your stuff w 210 99 Five
February 15. So they go aheadand create your tax return in

(39:58):
their system. And then feed themthe rest as you get it, so it
makes it easier on them.

Kevin (40:04):
That would have been helpful. I guess he said that
about 13 days ago. I missed thedeadline.

Alban (40:08):
Yeah, I have as well.
Wait, he said to on thedeadline. So the deadline Yeah,
it didn't give us much chanceDave. And then he's another one.
This was 5150 sat so it's real.
And he just says Jordan, Don'tyou dare.

Kevin (40:24):
Yeah, I could not agree more.

Alban (40:26):
I wish we had the time saved here. We could go figure
out what do Jordan What do youknow what this is?

Jordan (40:32):
I kn ow exactly what this is, because Kevin.

Alban (40:35):
What is it?

Jordan (40:36):
Um, so I don't have the timestamp exactly. But it was
when I was talking about thehost images on Apple and I had
mentioned why do they not justadd it? And Kevin said, Don't
you dare.

Alban (40:50):
You're like they just have to add it to Apple. And
Kevin's like, No, never! So DaveJones is with him.

Jordan (40:56):
Sorry.

Kevin (40:58):
Yep. And then Moritz from Alby sent 10,000 SATs thank you
and so curious about Spotifyconspiracy theory doesn't hold
up any reports from listeners?
Do we know more?

Alban (41:08):
The thing about conspiracy theories is you don't
need any data to back it up. Youjust need a strongly held
opinion.

Jordan (41:15):
Yeah, we didn't we didn't get anyone else following
up on that. So I think we mighthave to go back to Kevin's
initial plan of like cancelingour Spotify subscription to test
it out.

Alban (41:27):
I mean, we had the follow up for mere mortals podcast that
said that when Kirin actuallydid listen to the show he wasn't
getting a lot of ads and thenfollowed up said yeah, I'm not
actually on Spotify PremiumYeah, so that's what the
conspiracy theory UFOsconfirmed.

Kevin (41:41):
Yeah, I think at the worst it's plausible, but um,
it's probably confirmed

Alban (41:45):
Then we had some people reach out on Twitter so
remember, we had this wholeconversation around Kevin has a
another conspiracy theory thatmaybe the guy who had the cat
that played the keyboard thatgot the you know, they use this
on YouTube then made like aSuperbowl ad out of it. Kevin's
like, well, wouldn't it beterrible if you didn't get

(42:05):
money? Money? Yeah, well, Sararasa who hope we're pronouncing
your name correctly, said I betthey did. Schmidt has had a meme
manager for years. Then now meanmanager for the lights of nine
cat Grumpy Cat RidiculouslyPhotogenic guy. And Success Kid
offered help the Creator makethe most of his digital fame. So

(42:26):
there is no such thing as a mememanager out there. And Sara
followed up owning your own IPis important. That's why I love
being indie. And in bookpublishing, and podcasting, and
also I love Buzzsprout whichmakes podcasting so easy. So
thank you, Sarah. We appreciateyou.

Kevin (42:41):
Yeah, thank you. I did not know meme manager was a job.
Like, I gotta make sure my kidsdon't realize this or they're
all gonna want to be a mememanager.

Jordan (42:49):
Yeah, this led me down like a little bit of a rabbit
hole. I was reading through it.
And then when they werementioning the memes that he
managed, I would go and likelook them up, because I couldn't
remember exactly who they werebecause there's like that like
no, your meme website. Holyrabbit trail like it was. It was
not good. The other thing thatthat was really interesting from
what Sarah link to on theMashable article is that

(43:11):
Keyboard Cat is actually likethree cats what or became three
cats. Yeah. So you have Fatso,who was the initial one in the
video and then in the viralvideo and then after Fatso, came
bento and then now skinny. Sohe's still making these videos
of like Keyboard Cat, but it'sdifferent cats.

Alban (43:33):
This is like how the University of Georgia has like
had, you know, 12 Ugas becausethey pass on and then they get a
new dog.

Jordan (43:40):
What's an Uga?

Alban (43:41):
Uga is the University of Georgia. UGA. We have a dog
named Uga as the mascot.

Kevin (43:47):
Something similar happened at Notre Dame, except
leprechauns live much longerthan dogs. So they've only had
two.

Alban (43:56):
Another piece of feedback from family history drama
podcast. Without magic masteringI would be a lost cause a lost
cause. There's so much to learnto be a peak performer as a solo
podcast or audio tracksproductions, equipment, smarts,
etc. If I wasn't passionateabout my content, I would
absolutely hate this learningcurve. Thank you so much. Like

(44:16):
Kevin said, I love that this ishappening in more and more
products, the Shasta productfrom Adobe magic mastering off
on a list goes on. I think it'sgonna be more and more trying to
use AI and algorithms to cleanup audio to improve you know,
making the learning curve alittle bit easier, so that
people can share podcaststhey're passionate about without

(44:38):
devoting so much time to makingit really, really easy to use.
So glad it's been helpful toyou.

Jordan (44:42):
Thanks everyone for the boosts and the feedback and keep
podcasting. Yesterday I wasdoing my like research on like
the YouTube podcast pages. And Inoticed that YouTube actually
has like an entire pagededicated to Live animals cams.

Kevin (45:01):
Yes.

Jordan (45:01):
And I was just so excited. I actually got weepy. I
watched otters at the Seattlezoo for like, way too long. And
they were just like playing onthe screen while I was like
working. And it was so cutebecause they were just like
rolling.

Kevin (45:13):
Yeah. So I took this, I saw that same thing. I can't
remember where I saw it. But nowthat you say it, I remember it.
And I remember thinking aboutit. Like, there's this all this
to do about YouTube adding apodcast section, and like, how
this is such a big thing for theindustry. And then a couple of
weeks later, I'm like, they alsohave a whole section dedicated
to live animal cams. It's justlike, womp womp.

Alban (45:39):
They're all huge, dude.
They're all blowin' up.

Kevin (45:41):
But I can't believe that there's no and I like when I
heard that I hadn't done Ihadn't clicked on it and looked
at live animal cams, but likethat that is appealing to me in
some way. I do want to watchsome live animal cams.

Jordan (45:52):
It's really cool. The panda one is like very solid.
The panda cam is pretty great.

Alban (45:57):
Jordan reviews animal cams.

Jordan (45:59):
I do! The pandas are very cute. They stick out their
tongues a lot, and they get fedbamboo is very cute. And the
otters are pretty adorable. Andthen there's also this animal
cam, it's a trail cam and likeDenmark, and the guy puts out
food and so you get these likecute badgers and foxes all in
the camera together. And they'rejust like scavenging and it's so

(46:19):
cute.

Alban (46:20):
Did you guys see this Frod video?

Jordan (46:22):
No.

Alban (46:23):
Okay, so,

Kevin (46:24):
Like there's a lot of fraud videos.

Alban (46:26):
No, no Frod. Oh, F-R-O-D, it's frog misspelled. Okay, so
this guy on Tiktok like the topof his fence, like the little
insert the cap was missing. Andhe realized there was a frog
living Oh, yeah. And so he wentand 3d printed a little house.
And he like stuck it on. Andhe's like, Okay, this is
everyone's gonna love this. Andhe posts on you tick tock. And

(46:48):
all he gets is like trashed.
Like, yeah, he doesn't like itbecause he can't get in like,
there needs to be steps gettingin there. There needs to be like
this and this and they starttelling them all the stuff that
he's like, all right, and hegoes, he creates a whole new one
that's even more elaborate, putsit up. And then all the
comments, go back like, Are youkidding? There's not even a
pool! And it's iteration afteriteration. He makes this ultra

(47:08):
elaborate 3d printed frogparadise on his fence. And then
like, there's all these frogshanging down and they have
tadpoles. They've got likepossums coming in to drink the
frog water. Like, it just keptgetting bigger and bigger. And

(47:29):
like, I love it so much. Becausethe guy is engaging with his
audience so hard like anythingthey said. They're just being
like, in my opinion, some are.
Some are nice, but some are justlike trolling. Yeah, it was
like, great idea, guys. Youwon't need to go build that too.
It was one of my favorite videosI've seen in a long time.

Jordan (47:52):
That's kind of the magic of like internet. I love it when
they embrace the silly.

Alban (47:56):
Yes.

Jordan (47:56):
Just like that's when like magic happens when you stop
caring about what people think.
And you go like, Yeah, let's dothat.

Alban (48:04):
While you're totally engaging your with your audience
and taking them seriously. Ithink a lot of times people are
like, I'm the creator, you'rethe listener, you're the
watcher, I'm doing the thingyou're not. There's some
creators that are like, Yeah,okay, the person who happens to
be shooting the video, but we'rein this together. Like, of
course, there needs to be aninfinity pool on this frog's

(48:25):
house. Of course, like an idiot.
We're not thinking of that.

Kevin (48:28):
But you know, I wonder I saw I saw that first short
video, right? I'm thinking theYouTube short or something. I
saw the first one. I didn'tfollow the rabbit trail. So I
didn't get all the way to thefrog paradise. But I remember
thinking when I watched thatfirst one, the little house that
he made did not have like anentryway for the frog. There was
no hole at the bottom for thefrog to get in. And so it makes
me think like if he had actuallybuilt a better house from day

(48:51):
one for the frog, it wouldn'thave worked like it probably
wouldn't have gotten nearly asfar. But it had this like
completely obvious flaw. Right?
And you wonder if he wasintentional about it. I mean,
maybe probably not. But maybelike what a genius if he was
intentional about it to drivesome interaction. But it's
almost like if you're doing apodcast episode, and you
intentionally like mispronouncea word over and over and over

(49:11):
and over again in here and yourepisode, like you are going to
get feedback. Yes, like peoplesomeone's gonna write in. And
then you can lean into that. Andthen you can like, correct that
word and say, I'm sorry, butthen you start saying another
word incorrectly or somethingelse. Like, I wonder if there's
ways to generate interest andengagement through these, like
obvious oversights.

Alban (49:31):
100% So I read an article about this, Kevin.

Kevin (49:34):
Every time I share like an idea, you're always like,
Yes, I read something aboutthat. Let's go!

Alban (49:39):
This was so incredible to me. There's this whole, Have you
seen this genre content that islike non content, it will always
say things like, I can't believehe did that. And there's a video
of somebody like walking on thebeach, and there's nothing else
nothing else happens. And thenthere's all these people
commenting like, this is stupid,nothing happened, but then
there's some people who willcomment it oh my gosh, it took

(50:01):
me like six watches to get it.
So then people are watching it.

Kevin (50:05):
Once you see this, you can't unsee yeah,

Alban (50:07):
there's all these versions. And a lot of them,
they put something strange inthe video. So people are kind of
like, Wait, there's somethinghappening here. And like, we
have this sense that we have tofigure it out. But there's
nothing there. It's just thecontent is the fact that there
is no content. And one of thethings those videos often have

(50:28):
is things intentionally donewrong. So there's a whole genre
of them about math problems. Andthey always hit the math problem
wrong. They put together arecipe, and they tell you what
to do with the recipe, like foureggs, and then they put in three
eggs. And people were like, Whatthe hell like where's the
quarterback? Well, they just setyou up to dunk on them. But that

(50:50):
dunk isn't a dunk like you thinkyou didn't make fun of them.
Instead, you engaged with thestupid non content, so that it
went viral. And there's a wholegenre and

Kevin (51:00):
I think we use a version of that on this show.
Oftentimes, we all break intolaughter and everyone's like,
where's the joke? There'snothing funny.

Alban (51:06):
Yeah, well, that's your laughter button or whatever,
ding ding ding!

Kevin (51:11):
My laugh track

Jordan (51:12):
Oh, my gosh.
It reminds me of that girl. Shewent viral on like, Tiktok for
redoing logos for brands. Haveyou seen her? No, she Oh, it's
so funny. She is like deadserious. Like she went to like
to school for design. And thisis how she'd redo the like, this
brand's logo and stuff likethat. And she went super viral
for it. Because like the designsare trash. And it's so funny,

(51:35):
because some of these brandshave actually embraced it. Like
she gets like free stuff fromlike Microsoft because she redid
like the Windows brand. It'slike terrible.

Alban (51:46):
I want to check it out.
It's like the graphic design ismy passion meme.

Kevin (51:50):
Yeah, I love it. So I think we put the challenge out
to podcasters like, try toembrace your next episode, try
to embrace either, like anobvious error or some non
content tactics and like, let'ssee, let's see if that drives
audiences.

Alban (52:02):
I think these non-content tactics are like terrible.

Jordan (52:05):
Don't Don't knock it till you try it. Okay.

Kevin (52:07):
Well, maybe the non content is not a good one. But I
like the idea. I like the ideaof having an obvious flaw and
something that you do that justforce it's like so agitating to
the people listening that theyhave to engage with you. And it
should be it should be harmless.
Like you don't want to like makeup rumors or, you know, oh my
gosh, think about if you spentlike started creating conspiracy
theories that had no no merit.
That'd be terrible. So don't dothat.

Alban (52:32):
No, no, it's dunked on any of your stupid conspiracy
theories yet. These people areprobably starting to take them
seriously.

Kevin (52:40):
That's true. No one has dunked on. Yeah, well give
people something to talk aboutand comment and let's see what
happens.