June 4, 2025 • 56 mins
Johanna Stadlbauer is an anthropologist working in researcher development at the University of Graz, recently made Head of Research Careers Campus Graz. Her mission is a more fun and kind academia. Johanna shares the experiences and challenges of her journey from a PhD to quitting a postdoc in anthropology, to doing NGO work part-time, and then coming back to academia for a researcher development role. Her work now is focused on creating a supportive and kind academic environment, with the aim to improve researcher well-being and foster a sense of community. She discusses establishing structures for postdoctoral researchers' support and community, and highlights initiatives like the writing retreat, Fiasco Fest, and peer mentoring, which aim to improve researcher well-being and foster a sense of community. Johanna is a role model for how to navigate a career path and your work role on your own terms. She is really clear on her own boundaries, and what she needs to feed herself and look after her work-life balance. She also reminds us the value of peer support, of telling people their contributions matter, and of taking the time to savour the good. She reminds us of the significance of agency, community support, and the need for transparency and understanding in academia.
00:00 CAL125 Johanna Stadlbauer
03:03 Introduction and Guest Background
03:56 Journey from Anthropology to Research Development
06:18 Postdoc Experience and Challenges
07:42 Deciding to Quit the PostDoc
12:05 Transition to NGO Work
15:57 Finding Balance and Setting Boundaries
19:47 Messaging in Academia
23:35 Permanent Contract and Current Role
29:27 Towards a Fun and Kind Academia and Experiences of Power Abuse
31:26 Finding Solutions and Positive Structures
33:31 Balancing Critique and Support in Academia
35:58 Empowering Postdocs and Addressing Structural Issues
40:12 The Importance of Community, Peer Support and Mentoring
49:39 Promoting Good Working Environments for Researcher Wellbeing
52:03 Personal Reflections and Final Thoughts
56:53 End
Related Links
Johanna's web page (English version)
Head of Research Careers Campus Graz
Researcher Development in Graz Blog
LinkedIn pages for Johanna, the PostDoc Office, and Research Careers Campus Graz
The Coalition for Advancing Research Assessment (CoARA)
Max Planck PhD Net
Balint Group Method
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Welcome to Changing Academic Life.
I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this isa podcast series where academics and
others share their stories, provideideas, and provoke discussions about what
we can do individually and collectivelyto change academic life for the better.
(00:31):
On your own terms.
That's not just a platitude,it's how Johanna Stadlbauer has
navigated her career to date.
I have the pleasure of presentingthis conversation with Johanna's,
an anthropologist by background,and currently heading up researcher
(00:51):
development at the Universityof Graz, where she's head of the
research careers campus Graz.
Johanna has a really interesting journeyherself from a PhD and a postdoc in
anthropology, to then deciding to quit thepostdoc because it wasn't working for her.
(01:12):
She then talks about working with variousNGOs and doing that work part-time because
of the health issues that had resultedfrom previous work experiences, and then
how she eventually came back to academiafor this researcher development role.
So her work now is squarelyfocused on creating a supportive
(01:35):
and kind academic environment.
She talks about how they're workingto establish various structures for
supporting postdoctoral researchersand for helping to create community.
And this includes initiatives likea writing retreat and a fiasco
fest that I really loved, andvarious peer mentoring initiatives.
(01:56):
All with the aim of creating betterworkplaces that will result in improving
research and researcher wellbeing, andalso fostering that sense of community.
I think Johanna is a role model herselffor how to navigate a career path with
integrity and authenticity and resilienceand defining work on your own terms.
(02:23):
She's really clear on her own boundariesand what she needs to do to feed herself
and to look after her own wellbeing.
And this conversation reminds us ofthe value of peer support, of clear
communication, of telling people theircontributions matter, that they matter,
(02:46):
and to take time to savor the good.
She also reminds us that weall do have some agency to
define work on our own terms.
Enjoy this conversation with Johanna.
Johanna, thank you so much forjoining me and I'm going to read
(03:08):
the first little paragraph fromyour webpage 'cause it says, I'm an
anthropologist working in researcherdevelopment at the University of Graz.
I'm head of the research careerscampus and my mission is a
more fun and kind academia.
So those strands point to what I'dreally love to explore with you.
(03:32):
First of all, what's the journeythat brought you from anthropology
to working in researcher development?
Thank you, Geraldine.
It's an honor because I reallylike your podcast and, it's
called Changing Academic Life.
So I think that's something weare both, invested in our own
ways and maybe even both as, witha love for anthropology as well.
(03:56):
And it's a big question, howdoes one go from anthropology
to a researcher development?
And I try to answer it now, butI always, feel or I have the
conviction that an anthropologydegree prepares you for every role.
And it's an asset to have in, every job.
(04:16):
Because I have so many friends who studiedwith me who, use their anthropology
skills in, I don't know, in theinnovation sector, in the business sector.
Many different roles.
And personally, I like to work withpeople who are very curious about humans.
And very aware of society and how,it shapes, and it's stratified like
(04:41):
how gender roles in society shapehow we interact with each other, how,
class and, our family background,shapes our pathways and, all the
different discriminations there are.
So I think that's, that's anasset to have in any kind of job.
(05:03):
And personally, I came into researcherdevelopment via equality work.
And I came to equality work viadoing gender studies in anthropology.
I have a background in thinking aboutmethods as well in anthropology.
Yeah.
that comes in handy if youcan do qualitative research.
(05:23):
Yeah.
what needs your target group have If youare serving a specific target group, you
know how to, find out, what they want and.
Through my previous roles.
I also know how to make a program andI know, how to develop offers, how to
make a concept for something and how toevaluate it and see if it has an impact.
(05:47):
So that's the short of it.
I love that you've just talked aboutreally clear skills, ways of thinking.
that can be transferable inlots of different, domains.
the fact that you've brought it here.
What about the decision process toget Into researcher development?
(06:09):
So did you do, you did a PhDin anthropology in, at Graz.
Yeah.
And did you do postdoc research?
How was that postdoc journey?
Yes.
So I studied in Graz andI, did some field work.
So for my, MA I did some fieldwork in New Zealand, which
(06:32):
I've told you about previously.
It's roughly the area where,
it's roughly near Australiaand a long way away.
In that it's quite a bit,quite far away from Austria.
And, for my PhD, I did fieldwork in Austria with expatriates.
So people who were herefor short term work stays.
(06:56):
So two, three years, four years,two years, and were very mobile.
had a life of, going to differentcompanies around the world.
And, I caught them at the timewhere they were in Austria.
And after that, a new anthropologyprofessor from Germany came to
Carinthia and, they, he wanted someonefrom Austria to familiarize him
(07:20):
with the Austrian academic cultures.
And so I got that job.
And so I did a postdoc for twoyears, in Carinthia, which is
a, it's a great university.
Everyone is really friendly there.
And I was let into all the workinggroups for equality and, my own
qualitative research network and so on.
But, after two years out of asix year contract, I realized,
(07:44):
This is, too strenuous.
So I have too little inspiration,for research projects.
And I have, too high workloadsbecause I was also responsible
for the curricular development.
So I had to plan the department's teachingprogram for the year and, give all
the students their degrees basically.
And so I had students inmy office all the time.
(08:06):
But, yes, but that wasn't
That sounds like a lot to ask ofa first, second year out postdoc.
Yeah.
But at that time it was only meand my boss, at the department,
and of course a brilliant secretarywho was basically doing my job.
I, did a lot of it, but she hadthe institutional knowledge.
(08:26):
that was brilliant.
I'm just curious, if the role had havebeen less of the teaching curriculum
development and more space for research,do you, could you imagine, I know it's
imagining a world that didn't happen, butcould you imagine that you may have been
able to get inspiration for research?
(08:49):
It might have been.
I had more brain space.
Yes.
Yeah.
But that's still somethingI'm very proud of.
I even advocated for myself, I went tothe vice director for staff and told
him that this is untenable, and then hereduced my teaching, which was, useful.
Yes.
and,
(09:10):
but I, just really lacked, I was in aslump after the PhD, basically, as is
apparently normal in academic careers.
Yes.
Who am I now?
Yeah.
I didn't have between conferences, my bosstelling me I need to apply for third party
funding this, curriculum development.
(09:32):
I had no inspiration for anysort of direction I wanted
to go in with my research.
I started a project, butI abandoned it gladly.
After I quit that job.
I always had this, question in theback of my mind, is that right for me?
And so I went to therapy andtalked about with the therapist
(09:56):
and said, I can't make this work.
Everyone is saying youneed to work 60 hours.
I cannot work 60 hoursand I don't want it.
And he said, then findyour own way to do it.
And then I just quit.
So
That's, that's brave.
Yeah.
But it's, yeah, I've, talked this throughwith colleagues and some of them said, the
(10:16):
whole university basically said it's bravebecause it's a very small university.
So it was, I got lots of callssaying, why did you quit from
the team, upwards and downwards.
And everyone was applauding mea little bit for this decision.
But I had a boyfriendthen who had his own flat.
And so I had a securefinancial background.
(10:39):
Yeah.
In that sense.
And I was then able to have ajob for one or two years where
I earned only 1,300 Euros.
So by having this livingspace basically, and
I had the feedback from other peoplewho aren't as financially secure in
academia, that it's actually not thatbrave, and who are still in academia
(11:00):
because that's the only way they canhave an income for the whole family.
Yeah.
which is that parents, sister and so on.
It's hard, isn't it?
And the, trade offs and, thecircumstances, they're not easy decisions.
If you didn't have that safety net,maybe you couldn't have done it and you
would, would've been like some otherpeople, as you just said, who stayed on,
(11:24):
then there's the cost of that untenable.
Yeah, I, I would stillhave done it pretty, yeah.
Because if you just have too muchthen, or you can't make it work then.
I've always been taught by mymother to leave things behind and
she has modeled that basically.
And so that's always my approach.
(11:47):
if it's more sad making than ishappy making, then I'm not doing it.
so I'm a bit uncompromising in that.
But it's, important to recognize alsothat, privilege that not everyone has
when they make the career decisions.
And then I thankfully found lots ofdifferent jobs through none of them
(12:07):
through, regular applications, butthrough networks that I already had.
so one woman from Carinthia knew,a man in Graz who ran, run an
NGO for youth and equality work.
And so I worked with him for a yearon a project on antisemitism that
was, From funded from a political,education body and from the municipality.
(12:33):
that was also a time when I hadmany health issues, I think, due to
having been so stressed out earlier.
So at that time, a chronicillness manifested itself.
So I had a 15 hour job and I wasable to go there, and do all of it,
and still be very chronically ill.
but that thankfully, got better overtime and these mini NGO contracts were
(12:59):
quite good for that because I didn'thave to be in the office all the time.
Nice.
So Nice.
And that gave me the start into thisNGO work, NGO research education
work, where you do needs analysis.
And then prepare educationalconcepts from them with this specific
(13:21):
background was antisemitism prevention.
and then I moved through a womanwho works at the university or
worked at the University of Graz inthe equality office for 30 years.
I think she connected me with anotherNGO, which is the Männer Beratung in Graz.
So the men's counseling centeralso, decades old institution,
(13:42):
which has a research path,which is also quite old already.
And they do lots of EU Daphneviolence preventative grants.
So they apply for grants a lot andhave about 10 to 15 ongoing projects,
which are funded by the EU or bydifferent health, funding bodies or
by municipality, province and so on.
(14:03):
Or even by people who contract them for,
institutions that have a problemwith violence, or sexual abuse, for
example, and need them to come inand do research and then find out
how to make the institution better.
I got that connection and they tookme on, in five different research,
(14:25):
project projects in a 15 hour contract.
So that was, lots ofbusiness trips nicely.
So I got to go, I got to go toSofia and to Southern Tyrol, and to,
Barcelona for all these EU projects.
Nice.
Yeah.
Very good.
But all of them were on the topic of,preventing sexual abuse against boys.
(14:46):
Or sexualized violence, and discriminationagainst boys and training people
who work with children to create anenvironment where these children can
tell them that this is happening.
So I did that for three years untilI couldn't take it anymore because
that's also a job where you wouldneed a lot of community with your
colleagues and a lot of, supervision.
(15:09):
And through this third party funding,framework, there wasn't really a lot of
time to spend time with the colleagues,in the office because it was, the
colleagues were all over Europe basically.
And, the people who headed the institutealso had quite bit on their plate.
(15:30):
So I quit that then, andthat there we come to 2020.
so that's just, another exampleof you being very reflective
of what's going on for me.
What do I need, what's working for menow and when is it not working anymore?
And time to go.
Like your mother.
(15:51):
Yeah.
Role model again.
Yeah.
And by that time I also had thischronic illness, so that taught me never
to do more than I think I can take.
Because I really, I. So that manifestedin 2016 and then, in 2020, I was
still, so much in the throes of itthat I always stated my boundaries
(16:15):
very clearly to every employer.
And I'm also really proud of, I've had,to, while I was working at the NGOI was
also working at the German Universityremotely to do also violence prevention.
And I, that was a, I think fourmonth, six month remote contract.
And.
I did a curative retreat duringthat because in the Austrian state
(16:36):
you can go on curative retreats,so for the chronic illness.
So I had a job in Germany, in theGerman system and a job in Austria, both
of them part-time and partly remote.
And I told everyone, I'm now going onthis curative retreat because I need it.
And I somehow made it work throughall that administration and both
(16:57):
employers were just happy with it.
And yeah.
So I was, basically on a journeysince 2016 to tell everyone my
boundaries and the conditions underwhich I want to work and, that's good.
Yeah.
You said, the people made itwork or were happy with it.
And you also, when you said beforethat you quit the first postdoc
(17:19):
job and So many people said, why?
and in the end were supportive in that.
Were you surprised by people support, wereyou anticipating more pushback or that
people would not want you to be holdingyour boundaries and, do what they wanted?
(17:39):
No.
yeah, I was neither surprised,nor did I anticipate that it
would be un uncomfortable.
Obviously my boss very much when hebrought me on as a postdoc saw himself
in the role as supporting my career.
And looking back, I canunderstand everything he did
as trying to be supportive.
Yes.
When I was, only 30 and not have,not having been in academia for
(18:01):
very long, I didn't recognize it.
And I recognized it more as him puttingpressure on me and reacted as such.
And, in that sense, I obviously,I felt very bad about quitting
this job after two years and he.
He was all on the journeywith me for a long time.
In fact, in that talk where I toldhim I quit, he said he would try
(18:26):
to negotiate a development contractfor me to keep me on for longer.
Yeah.
And I just said, no thank you.
And then obviously he told me, then I'mnot going to support you anymore, which.
Also wasn't necessary, but I managed,despite being so strong with my
boundaries, I think everyone, remembersme not in a, adversarial manner.
(18:49):
So he, still called me up two years laterto ask, can I come back for half a year?
Because someone has just gone on.
Oh, nice.
Yeah, it's nice.
So it's a just, a goodmessage that you can hold your
boundaries and make that work.
Yeah.
I think if you're generallya nice person to work with.
(19:10):
Yeah, And respectful of thepeople and, to let them know
it's also, yeah.
It's also just interesting, forpeople who are in leadership roles
or employing people like postdocs,that tension of wanting to support
people's career development.
And recognizing the pressuresof the current environment
(19:31):
and system that we're in.
And often that does, this inadvertentlytranslate into some pressures to
play the game more and work the longhours and tick all the boxes and
on that, if I had just had moreknowledge about how academia works,
and if he had just explained, whyhe wants me to do this, that and the
(19:54):
other, and in what way this wouldcontribute to my path, I might have
understood and not rejected it so much.
so he just said, you Johanna now it'stime, you're on the six year contract
to apply for third party funding.
And I just didn't understand.
I didn't understand that I nowneeded to be the PI of my own project
and I need to develop leadershipand I need to go out there with
(20:17):
my own ideas and be independent.
And he also explained none of it.
And there was also no structure inplace, like a postdoc office or,
something that would have drawn me into explain me these things somehow.
Yeah.
And he didn't really do much explainingbecause all of them in that generation,
they all learned by doing basically.
(20:38):
And I tried for the longesttime to just model what everyone
else was doing without reallyunderstanding why they were doing it.
Going to lots of conferences.
Okay.
That's good.
Not really having an intentionbehind it other than that
I saw what they were doing.
And then, you have your people who standup in front of, training for women,
(21:03):
career training for women, and say,you're going to work on the weekends.
It's going to be hard.
And so all of these messages I took onboard and thought, okay, some people say
this, so some people must also do this.
And where do I fit in that?
And that was, also what led me to quitbecause I thought, if there's no one
else who does it like I do it, who doesit to my abilities with weekends and
(21:27):
family time and, friends and going tothe sauna and stuff like that, then
how am I going to do this and howam, how will I be where I need to be
with all these impermanent contracts?
And yeah.
Yeah, but all of that was solvedvery quickly after I, I left this
(21:47):
job because despite having then thesemany, contract jobs, I, felt there's
so many people who want my skillsand they are also appreciative.
And the NGO world, is notshy with giving praise.
then the, then academia was for me, andthere's not a reviewer, around every
(22:08):
corner who you have to network with.
There's just people who are happy forthe mission, wanting to end violence, or
wanting to engage youth or, wanting theworld to be a much better place and they
celebrate everyone who comes on boardbasically, despite the obviously funding
(22:29):
situation being shit and stressing.
But, they, yeah, even that equalityoffice in Germany, they were, really,
really appreciative and said, so nicethat you are here with your skills.
And just, took me with my remotecontract and I got to meet
everyone in the university becauseI did a project on preventing
(22:52):
sexualized harassment on campus.
So I had to do interviews witheveryone from the president, to it
service to all the dean and so on.
And they just, welcomed me,as the strange Austrian.
And so lots of healingexperiences after academia.
Ah, good.
And, This stress about temporary contractsresolved itself a bit by me thinking, ah,
(23:17):
okay, I have something that actually isin demand, or there are things happening
for me and I have a good network.
but that doesn't mean that Iwasn't really happy when I got my
first permanent contract in 2021.
And what was your firstpermanent contract?
in 2020 then when I didn't want to workon, preventing sexualized abuse anymore,
(23:41):
another friend of mine said, oh, there'sa maternity cover at the University
of Graz to work with researchers.
And then I thought, oh, that'sgoing to be very traumatic.
I think I do that
Going back into the university.
Yeah.
I'm not sure if I've, resolved everythingfrom the last, since 2016, but I did
(24:03):
it anyway and did that job interview.
They are still, my colleagues are stillfondly remembering, when they interviewed
me that I said, I cannot work on a Friday,because that's when I get massages.
So take it or leave it.
And, sadly, I now have to work onFridays because I'm much better.
I have 40 hours now.
(24:23):
But, they nevertheless, took thismaternity cover and it was working
with, doctoral researchers and then.
And, actually already at the end of thisyear, the vice rector for Research, who
is now the president of the AustrianScience Fund, who we were working for, he
wanted to do something for postdoctoralresearchers and then we started a needs
(24:46):
assessment and, talking to a third ofall the postdocs, the university had.
And then together with him veryclosely, developing measures.
And by the time he got the call to becomethe president of the Austrian Science
Fund, that was all basically prepared.
And, someone needed togive me a permanent job.
(25:08):
they did it.
And, since then, since 2021, endof 2021, I've I had the joy for 40
hours a week on a permanent contractto build up this postdoc office.
And now five years, no.
Three, four years later, we establisheda new unit that now houses the doctoral
(25:28):
researcher services, the postdocoffice, and is also developing,
services for mid-career researchers.
And, I'm now its boss.
So lovely.
I'm very happy.
Oh, that's, just a lovely journey.
The holding your boundaries, the waythings work out, the way that you can
(25:51):
bring through the skills and knowledgeand expertise that you have and pointing
out along the way, like the criticalthings that we often don't think
about, that the conversations thatwe have with people are so important.
So no one told you the why becausewe just assume that everyone knows
because it's just, it just isthe environment that we are in.
(26:13):
So not understanding whysome of the things were being
asked or, suggested or pushed.
And then the messages that you weregetting were, well of course you've got to
work weekends and makes me really reflectabout how how we are messaging, And how
explicit we are with people to explain.
(26:35):
And also like how many times as aresearcher working in a university
did someone say to you, so nicethat you are here with your skills.
Not so many times.
And wouldn't that be wonderful if yourprofessor said to you so nice that you
are here with your skills, your skills.
(26:58):
I have this card still here, above meand that I got when I came to Luneburg
in Germany and that Christmas cardwhere it has that, we are so happy
that you're here with your skills.
And it's, even though it's a ChristianChristmas card for some reason because
you had it lying around, I, I stillhave it because it's so important to me
(27:19):
that I was able to make the switch andthat I was able to meet these people
who were healing me a little bit.
Yeah.
And it's such a small gesture and lookat the impact that it's still having.
The fact that you do have the card there,that it's something that you remember and
when you were talking about it, the wayyour face softened and lit up as well.
(27:42):
just remembering, I don't know, it'salmost like you were re-basking in
the glow of that appreciation, sucha small gesture, but so impactful.
Yeah.
And with these messages, I try not tostress any researchers out in my job now.
I don't know how good I am at that, but I,try to tell stories in my workshops about
(28:07):
people who make it work, 20 hours a week.
And many different stories of all thepeople I know who, because I'm now seeking
out these people who made their own path,that is not like this story of you have to
work weekends and you cannot have friends.
Yeah.
So I'm always looking for the storiesand then I'm telling them to people.
(28:28):
And I can also see the impact ofthis because I invited this friend
of mine, for example, who has always.
Worked in the same university andnow has a permanent job there.
And she comes from a,Gastarbeiter, or rather not a
Gastarbeiter, a refugee family.
And, I invited her to tell this to all ofour postdocs, at one of our, annual event.
(28:53):
And she actually inspired one person whoalso cannot be mobile because he cares for
his parents, to ask for a permanent job.
And he now has one.
That's probably wasn't theonly thing that inspired him.
Probably it's his, skillsand research brilliance and,
and his negotiation, prowess.
(29:14):
but I, saw he was talking toher afterwards, and so I'm,
thinking, yeah, that's a littlebit my contribution and yeah.
So when you talk about fun andkind academia, is that your
personal mission in your role?
Yeah.
That fun and kind.
(29:34):
That's the kindness aspect of it.
That will be more the be kind to yourself,
and seek out the people who arealso collaborative and, solidarity.
That was always what I tried, when Iwas working in academia, I did lots
of peer group work, so this peergroup for qualitative methods, alumni
(29:57):
work, everything that brought peopletogether, female accountability groups.
So I don't really like accountability,so I didn't work very much, but just
the female solidarity parts of it.
And, I tried that asfar as I could take it.
Basically, this is solidarity and I,found it ends where someone needs to
(30:19):
fulfill things, for their contracts.
and then they can't collaborateanymore because they need, people on a
higher level to collaborate with them.
Or other, yeah, actual instances ofpower abuse, for example, I had a
boss once who made me write a very badreview, of someone who she didn't like.
(30:42):
And that was my veryfirst publication ever.
She just said, put in this onesentence, and I just put it in
and, I obviously feel bad about it.
It was like this wasn't veryoriginal or something, so it
wasn't the worst thing ever.
But obviously, an instance of powerabuse because I was in my first job ever.
(31:04):
not going to go intomore details about this.
Yeah.
But.
Many times actually, I cried whenexperienced that other people aren't
as or cannot be or have been formedin such a way by the system that
they cannot be collaborative andthey cannot be, kind to each other.
Yeah.
And now, it's not that I'm taking revengeon the system, it's basically just that
(31:30):
I'm taking a solution focused approachand drawing out all the things where
people are nice to each other and wherestructures are working so that they can
be nice to each other where they areestablishing new structures, together.
And there are so manyinstances of this anyway.
When we talk, the postdoc office does alot of influencing, on LinkedIn and in
(31:53):
our workshops and public discussions andthrough speakers and so on, we always try
to acknowledge the, harming structuresor the bad things that are happening, but
also, and that they are structural, butalso the solutions that individuals find.
And that actually things like CoARA,big, movements where that are aimed
(32:16):
at changing the structures and it'snot, everything is not doom and gloom
and there are so many people who,get together and, form movements.
yes.
Yeah, that's so just fun and kind.
It's just focusing on the Yeah.
The nicer things thatmake it better for us.
Just for people who may not be familiarwith it CoARA is an initiative at
(32:40):
European level, and it's the Coalitionfor Advancing Research Assessment.
And they're part of really trying toshift some of the structural issues.
Yeah.
Reforming what we acknowledge as aresearch, good research performance.
Yeah.
So where doing things for youruniversity also counts and doing
(33:02):
things for the students also counts.
And doing things for society also countsas much as an impact factor and moving
away from that impact factor as to notpermit too much scientific fraud as well.
Yes.
So that's my understanding of it.
And also the.
It's very good at acknowledging thecollegiality aspect and the fact that
there, It's not the lone researcher,but there are multiple roles that
(33:25):
contribute to research outputs.
Now obviously now I work forthe Rectorate of a University,
I also can't go around and say you workingat the university is shit or working in
academia is shit, because first of all, Idon't believe working at the University of
Graz is shit because I enjoy quite a lot.
(33:46):
I know a lot of people who like it alot, but it wouldn't be, good, neither
for my mission nor for my employer if Itold everyone how harmful academia is.
Because I want the peopleto thrive in academia and I
want them to change academia.
And I, all of these, for example, femalemathematicians at our department, despite
(34:12):
the fact that they are all basicallycompeting with each other, you never
notice that because they just areso supportive, mentoring each other,
mentoring people in other countries,putting up, lunch, clubs, and, everything.
And.
So these are actually thepeople who are going in the
university committees and so on.
(34:33):
So they make it an a livable experience.
but there is a tension between speakingfor an employer, wanting your employer
to recruit great people who alsobenefit the collegial aspect of our
togetherness here at the university.
And to be seen by people asjust saying, everything is
great and we're so collegial.
(34:54):
And I think I, as an anthropologist,I know, everything is power relations
and everything is, structure, shapeshow we interact and And there's
many bad things going on in short.
But I also believe we have agencyto shape it, and I want people
to get together to, to, yeah.
(35:16):
So what do you think, you talkedabout solutions focus, like there
are structural issues and I thinkthat one of the things about the
anthropology background is sitting inthe middle of all that messy complexity.
So the structural issues and you talkedabout solutions focused and the agency.
So what do you think, that either youpromote through your office or that you
(35:41):
do, in your work, what are the key areasof agency that you think make a difference
or maybe some examples of initiatives?
I've, had to accept that I have limitedscope in my work, so I also have
to rely on the people I work with.
So the postdocs themselvesto do things for themselves.
(36:05):
And I can't change, many of the structureswhich they would want to change.
For example, if
things that postdocs said in 20 20,20 21 that they want changed, still
haven't changed because some of themare at the faculty level, for example,
where I have limited influence.
(36:28):
A very wise professor who's now aprofessor once told me, you can also rely
on the people to fight for themselves.
And that helped me a lot.
She's one of the creators of thenetwork against power abuse in academia.
So she has had the experience froma PhD candidate onwards that she was
able to actually establish structuresthat make academia better place.
(36:49):
So she, found PhD Net at Max Planck,and then she found that this network
against power abuse and she nowhas about a hundred ERC grants.
I'm, over exaggerating.
anyway, she is brilliant.
And that after three years of thepostdoc office where I saw, people,
the university still, people stillcome to me with the same complaints.
(37:13):
There's not much transparency.
Information isn't being passed down to me.
I'm actually being prohibitedfrom going into some committees.
I don't actually know how things work.
Yeah, it was a goodconversation with her to know.
That's not talking aboutany initiatives right now.
That's just talking about how I survivein my job, in which people, yeah
(37:35):
come to me with problems every day.
The problems that not necessarilystem from our university either,
that they had in their lastuniversity, and it challenges them
still, in their daily work here.
So I try to give competent advice.
For example, if you have, experiencedpower abuse in a former job, I can now
(37:55):
tell you five people who you can talk to.
So that's how I work.
by being accessible for all thebad things that can happen to you.
And then knowing how, who to connectyou with and knowing, having insider
knowledge basically into many differentthings, many different parts of the
researcher experience and then relyingon people to do it themselves basically.
(38:21):
And asking them to check back inwith me and report, but go out
and seek the solutions themselves.
And we have also, we have aconflict resolution contact point.
So the university has manystructures you can send people to.
There also know many structuresoutside the university.
That's now for conflict, but,The researcher experience
(38:44):
is much more than conflicts.
Yeah.
And I try to make myself as knowledgeablein all the things like publishing or
career development or anything else.
And in terms of, programs, we usedto run a peer mentoring program.
Now we have a workshop where youlearn how to give collegial advice
(39:04):
and support in a structured manner.
We have a fiasco fest, whichcelebrates failure and creates
(lovely) this community.
Yeah.
It's really funny that a psychologyprofessor thought it up and came to me
when we started the Postoc office andthen we made the concept, the two of us.
And it's, people sharing theirtops and flops and looking at the
(39:28):
top and flop CVs that they have.
And then, just drinking a little bitafterwards, as far as they're comfortable
and then burning all of their fiascos.
That's the short of it, but she givesobviously competent psychological
advice on how to prepare yourselffor the inevitable setbacks that
will be part of any career basically.
(39:49):
And that serves the purpose of alsogetting people together and talking
in a way that they don't usually talk.
Or maybe they don't have so many, areasin their own workplace where they, can
open up and can see, oh, okay, someoneelse is having exactly the same issues.
And that also happensat the writing retreat.
(40:11):
We have a yearly retreat forthree days where, which includes,
time in the sauna if you want.
So someone told me once, that's thefirst experience of academic sisterhood
that they, they had in the sauna at thewriting retreat with other researchers
that they've never seen before.
And but the writing retreat is actuallylike structured writing time with
(40:34):
a writing facilitator where you getthree meals a day and your schedule
is being, taken care of for you.
And she just tells you when towrite and she helps you with
any, issues that come, across.
And she makes you go out to exerciseor to take a walk and, Afterwards, it's
just, holidaying in this resort basically.
(40:56):
And these are all things that serveto form the community and people
will then get in WhatsApp groupstogether or just see each other again
and have seen each other previously.
And so we work a lot with thatresearcher wellbeing, through
researcher wellbeing, and community,having paperwork on their careers.
(41:16):
So I don't go around and hitthem on the head with the career
board or the career planning.
I just try to create spaces that arefirst educational for them or hit any
spot that they like needing to finish apaper or needing to know how to perform
in the interview for a professorship,but also do it with nice people.
(41:39):
And that's the approach basically.
I think I said three main popular.
Popular programs.
Can I dig in on a couple of those?
I love the Fiasco Fest.
That's brilliant.
And the writing retreat.
You said at the beginning you, youhave a program where you talk to
people about, you're not doing thepeer mentoring anymore, but you're
(42:04):
Training people in how todo the collegial advice.
Could you say a littlebit more about that?
yes, we, what could be atip or a trick for that?
Ah, okay.
the genesis of that is that forthree years we had peer groups, so
they spent a year with each other.
And that's also our approach.
We believe the community already hasknowledge and resources, and they
(42:26):
just need to be brought together.
Yeah.
they don't necessarilyneed to be taught anything.
they just need to connectwith each other to share that.
And there is a model that'scalled Kollegiale Fallberatung.
In French Canadian.
Collegial development collegial and inEnglish action items I think or something.
(42:48):
Action learning sets.
Learning.
Yes, exactly.
Yes.
Yeah.
So it's all basically the same concept.
Yeah.
And at the start of each peergroup, they were taught this,
method by a trainer, practically.
And then that's what theywould do in their sessions.
And now these peer groups.
(43:08):
So we have 350 postdocs and eightor so always applied for this.
And everyone from the other postdocoffices around the world always
said, wow, that's impressive.
No one applied.
Wouldn't apply for somethinglike this at our university.
But now it seems to be something weneed to wait for another two years
until we have the interest again.
(43:29):
So we had only fourpeople apply this year.
So what we offer now, isjust methods training.
how to sit together, raise an issue,and then, in a specific agenda,
go through the issues where thegroup develop solutions for you.
You are not allowed to say anything,and then you, allowed to react to
(43:50):
what they said, and then you couldtogether maybe map out the plan for
you to actually take action and then.
A week later, a month later, two monthslater, you meet the group again, and then
you, we can report how that issue went.
And we also use thisfor supervisor training.
So we have a group that's calledSupervisor Network, and some of them
(44:13):
were previous graduates of this peermentoring and some are just, rather
experienced university professors.
And they got all together to,discuss critical situations
from their supervisory practice.
And I, saw in that, they presentedit this year in April, that
doing this for three years hasinfluenced the university somehow.
(44:36):
Nice.
Towards more supportive supervisorypractices or dealing with situations
more, more constructively.
Just people have caught on to this ideaof you can do something with a peer group.
it's, there is a platform whereyou can find these peers and there
are tools and it's an acknowledgedconcept now in the method, in
(44:56):
the professional form of gettingtogether and improving our practice.
Basically.
And this is now a group made out of seniorpostdocs and established professors and,
I hope with this new method trainingthat also goes into all the faculties,
or all other universities where thepeople might go to and they, yes, they
(45:20):
have some topic be supervision, be it,I don't know, just career decisions
and then they can say, there's actuallystructured methods and we could meet
once a month or something like that.
And, so yeah, I think that has potential.
Yeah.
And it's, that's obviously was not me.
I wasn't the first personwho thought of the,
(45:40):
i'm actually an action learningset facilitator, trained.
Oh.
And it's brilliant to hear how thetransition from the more structured, you
meet, depending on what model you use,six sessions and there's the commitment.
And this sounds like it's taking theprinciples and working with the reality
of people being busy and letting theminterpret the principles to meet when
(46:04):
they want and as often as they want.
That's brilliant.
Yeah.
Maybe can you say it briefly aboutthe action learning sets, because
it's probably sounding betterwhen you, when it comes from you.
It is a peer mentoring process, isn't it?
And often the way it's moretraditionally set up, and I always
had the question in my mind abouthow well it works in academia to get
(46:27):
the commitment for people to turn up.
But normally you have five or six people,you have a facilitator who will role
model how to structure a conversation.
The people agree to get togetherin regular period, could be
once a month or whatever, maybefor about five or six meetings.
At the beginning, usually everyone goesaround and just says what they might
(46:51):
talk about, what could be an issue.
And then the group decideswhich one they focus on.
And then exactly the processthat you talked about.
Although what I was taught wasmore about instead of the group
coming up with solutions, the groupcoming up with the questions to
help the person thinks through.
And then at the end they can bring insome ideas or solutions themselves.
(47:15):
So anyway,
Yeah, that was what Ialso understood in Yeah.
Also that element where you arenot allowed to say anything.
Is that also in your action learning sets?
Where the person who brings the problem,they are responding to the questions and
they're not listening to other peoplejust talking about their own problems.
(47:36):
There's a round where you say, doesanyone want to bring a case for today?
Yes.
Basically, yeah.
And then you bring the case and thenpeople can ask many questions just if
they haven't understood and then theydiscuss without you involving yourself.
So in that, the way that I havelearned it, not the actual learning
set, but the colleague, yeah.
(47:56):
You sit there for about 10 minutes,15 minutes listening to the
people expound on what you do.
And also, Geraldine we did that, inour ethno psychoanalysis supervisory
group that we had for fieldwork, which was the Balint model.
Do you know the Balintmodel from psychotherapy?
(48:17):
No.
I thinks psychotherapists get together,to reflect on critical cases from
their work in the Balint group model.
We did that when I was a PhD candidateor when I did field work still.
We had a group with a supervisorwho was psychoanalytically trained
and also an anthropologist, andsomeone said, I had this interview.
(48:39):
I'm now going to tell you about it.
Or, I had this situation in my field work,and then the people are discussing it.
On the basis of emotionsthat this brought up.
So it was a way to make visiblerelationships in field work through
the emotions of other people who havejust heard what you were talking.
And you could then see somethinghappening in this group, that you
(49:03):
might have realized was present asa topic in your field work or was a
relationship issue in your field work.
And, this is what I did when I was aresearcher and it's, not dissimilar
say to what the peer groups are doing,but yeah, we have a facilitator come in
who does this, training in the methods.
(49:25):
I enjoy that element where otherpeople are talking about your
problem and you can lean back.
Yes.
See, ah, that's interesting.
Hadn't thought about that angle.
Yeah.
The other thing that I'd love to hear moreabout, you talked about the researchers'
wellbeing and, community building andthat was a point you brought up at the
end and some education around that.
(49:45):
So what are some of thekey planks of that one?
Oh, that's just, that was just to saythat I, don't say we are a career center.
We're, we are a center that strives tocreate, good environments for researchers
to feel well at work, basically.
Okay.
So the mission isn't foremostto develop your career.
(50:08):
The mission is to have a good workingenvironment and feel well in yourself.
And from that then, stemseverything else basically.
The concept would be take care ofyourself first, and, look at your
resources, have a focus on whatfeeds you, what, nurtures you.
(50:30):
Yesterday I heard someone saying, Genuss.
What's the word in English?
Joy?
Yeah.
But more you know, yeah.
this savor.
Yes.
Savoring.
Savoring.
And, that, that's my approach when Iget together with people in coaching.
So that's my approach.
We always have food for people,and in fact, people who live our
(50:53):
university say to me, thanks,Johanna, for all the free food.
And, but we never do an event thathas not any benefit for your career.
So everything is informationaland everything is networking
and everything is, actually veryimportant information for you.
But, it's around eating.
(51:15):
It's around being in nature.
It's around, Asking yourself, howlong hours can I work or what, do I
do to recharge and, where are otherpeople who can help me recharge?
And, what's my community and what areall the supportive environments I can map
(51:36):
out and how can I put them into place?
And how can I defend those boundarieswhen once I have identified what
feeds me, how can I maintain thatand do I have to, and then does it
become too stressful to maintain it?
And then can I just let it go?
Or yeah, what can I letgo of that stresses me.
(51:58):
yeah.
Nice.
So just in wrapping, what feeds you?
I like to go to the sauna.
That's my, actually mymain hobby in my life.
But what also feeds me is having,this very stable job where I have lots
of, space for creativity and lots ofagency, and we have lovely leadership,
(52:21):
which is lets us do what we wantbecause they always see it's good.
And the colleagues are really funny.
And I used to be often very alonebecause I was the only PhD at my
department then I was the only postdoc.
Yeah.
So all these peer groups I madewere also because I'm lonely and now
there's people who are very alignedwith what I do and from whom I could
(52:44):
learn a lot because they were alreadythere for a long time when I came.
And they are also really funny.
And so that, that feeds me, going towork, being able to set my own agenda
and being together with people who areyeah, just, nice and competent and,
and like taking obviously evenings,weekends sauna time, holidays, eating.
(53:08):
Oh, that sounds brilliant.
That sounds brilliant.
Yes.
Is there anything that youwant to say that you wanted
to say that we haven't said?
No, I made a few notes of talking points.
maybe just as an explainer of whyI didn't know how academia works is
because I didn't know anyone who workedin academia and I still have very
(53:29):
little friends who work in academia.
And my family are in the Austrianrailways or in the Austrian
steel works historically.
they were obviously likedpublic infrastructure but
weren't academically inclined.
Yeah.
So I'm also conscious of that.
I have to explain things now because noteveryone has the same background and.
(53:50):
Exactly.
I'm also, yeah.
Sometimes puzzling how I am now despitethe fact that I, suffered because I
didn't know the rules, I can now translatethese rules, make them more transparent.
But I'm still in an environmentthat has many hierarchies because
yeah, I'm now support staff.
(54:12):
And we like to say we feed the missionof research and not only researchers as
people, but often it's also noticeablethat there are hierarchies and sometimes,
the postdocs I work with are all brilliantand really appreciative as other PhD
candidates and many professors as well.
(54:34):
But sometimes you can notice,these hierarchies a little bit.
Yes.
University leadership, not much.
They don't seem to have any sortof, a need to, claim their status.
They're very,
They already firmly stand in it.
Yeah.
As well.
That wasn't a very good ending word.
(54:55):
But just to say, not everythingis happy all the time.
Yeah.
But that we do have a lot of agency.
You've pointed to the Yeah.
The multiple ways that we do have agency.
The ways that we can contribute toone another by not assuming people
know, by explaining, by reachingout, by saying we appreciate people.
(55:17):
And, also the power of community.
So much of what you've talked about isconnecting people and, the wisdom and
the expertise we all have and sharewhether it's of our fiascos, of our flops
and tops or whatever, like we, yeah.
And on your own terms, on yourown terms, as much as you can,
(55:40):
on your own terms.
That's a great, finish.
So thank you so much.
This has just been wonderful Johanna.
I really appreciate your time.
Thanks Geraldine.
Yes, that super that you attentivelylisten to me for an hour and gave
me the space to talk about myself.
That's also feeding me.
(56:01):
Oh, that's good.
Thank you.
You can find the summary notes, atranscript and related links for this
podcast on www.changingacademiclife.com.
You can also subscribe to ChangingAcademic Life on iTunes, Spotify.
(56:21):
And I'm really hoping that we canwiden the conversation about how
we can do academia differently.
And you can contribute to this by ratingthe podcast and also giving feedback.
And if something connected withyou, please consider sharing this
podcast with your colleagues.
Together we can make change happen.
Welcome to Changing Academic Life.
I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this isa podcast series where academics and
others share their stories, provideideas, and provoke discussions about what
we can do individually and collectivelyto change academic life for the better.
(00:31):
On your own terms.
That's not just a platitude,it's how Johanna Stadlbauer has
navigated her career to date.
I have the pleasure of presentingthis conversation with Johanna's,
an anthropologist by background,and currently heading up researcher
(00:51):
development at the Universityof Graz, where she's head of the
research careers campus Graz.
Johanna has a really interesting journeyherself from a PhD and a postdoc in
anthropology, to then deciding to quit thepostdoc because it wasn't working for her.
(01:12):
She then talks about working with variousNGOs and doing that work part-time because
of the health issues that had resultedfrom previous work experiences, and then
how she eventually came back to academiafor this researcher development role.
So her work now is squarelyfocused on creating a supportive
(01:35):
and kind academic environment.
She talks about how they're workingto establish various structures for
supporting postdoctoral researchersand for helping to create community.
And this includes initiatives likea writing retreat and a fiasco
fest that I really loved, andvarious peer mentoring initiatives.
(01:56):
All with the aim of creating betterworkplaces that will result in improving
research and researcher wellbeing, andalso fostering that sense of community.
I think Johanna is a role model herselffor how to navigate a career path with
integrity and authenticity and resilienceand defining work on your own terms.
(02:23):
She's really clear on her own boundariesand what she needs to do to feed herself
and to look after her own wellbeing.
And this conversation reminds us ofthe value of peer support, of clear
communication, of telling people theircontributions matter, that they matter,
(02:46):
and to take time to savor the good.
She also reminds us that weall do have some agency to
define work on our own terms.
Enjoy this conversation with Johanna.
Johanna, thank you so much forjoining me and I'm going to read
(03:08):
the first little paragraph fromyour webpage 'cause it says, I'm an
anthropologist working in researcherdevelopment at the University of Graz.
I'm head of the research careerscampus and my mission is a
more fun and kind academia.
So those strands point to what I'dreally love to explore with you.
(03:32):
First of all, what's the journeythat brought you from anthropology
to working in researcher development?
Thank you, Geraldine.
It's an honor because I reallylike your podcast and, it's
called Changing Academic Life.
So I think that's something weare both, invested in our own
ways and maybe even both as, witha love for anthropology as well.
(03:56):
And it's a big question, howdoes one go from anthropology
to a researcher development?
And I try to answer it now, butI always, feel or I have the
conviction that an anthropologydegree prepares you for every role.
And it's an asset to have in, every job.
(04:16):
Because I have so many friends who studiedwith me who, use their anthropology
skills in, I don't know, in theinnovation sector, in the business sector.
Many different roles.
And personally, I like to work withpeople who are very curious about humans.
And very aware of society and how,it shapes, and it's stratified like
(04:41):
how gender roles in society shapehow we interact with each other, how,
class and, our family background,shapes our pathways and, all the
different discriminations there are.
So I think that's, that's anasset to have in any kind of job.
(05:03):
And personally, I came into researcherdevelopment via equality work.
And I came to equality work viadoing gender studies in anthropology.
I have a background in thinking aboutmethods as well in anthropology.
Yeah.
that comes in handy if youcan do qualitative research.
(05:23):
Yeah.
what needs your target group have If youare serving a specific target group, you
know how to, find out, what they want and.
Through my previous roles.
I also know how to make a program andI know, how to develop offers, how to
make a concept for something and how toevaluate it and see if it has an impact.
(05:47):
So that's the short of it.
I love that you've just talked aboutreally clear skills, ways of thinking.
that can be transferable inlots of different, domains.
the fact that you've brought it here.
What about the decision process toget Into researcher development?
(06:09):
So did you do, you did a PhDin anthropology in, at Graz.
Yeah.
And did you do postdoc research?
How was that postdoc journey?
Yes.
So I studied in Graz andI, did some field work.
So for my, MA I did some fieldwork in New Zealand, which
(06:32):
I've told you about previously.
It's roughly the area where,
it's roughly near Australiaand a long way away.
In that it's quite a bit,quite far away from Austria.
And, for my PhD, I did fieldwork in Austria with expatriates.
So people who were herefor short term work stays.
(06:56):
So two, three years, four years,two years, and were very mobile.
had a life of, going to differentcompanies around the world.
And, I caught them at the timewhere they were in Austria.
And after that, a new anthropologyprofessor from Germany came to
Carinthia and, they, he wanted someonefrom Austria to familiarize him
(07:20):
with the Austrian academic cultures.
And so I got that job.
And so I did a postdoc for twoyears, in Carinthia, which is
a, it's a great university.
Everyone is really friendly there.
And I was let into all the workinggroups for equality and, my own
qualitative research network and so on.
But, after two years out of asix year contract, I realized,
(07:44):
This is, too strenuous.
So I have too little inspiration,for research projects.
And I have, too high workloadsbecause I was also responsible
for the curricular development.
So I had to plan the department's teachingprogram for the year and, give all
the students their degrees basically.
And so I had students inmy office all the time.
(08:06):
But, yes, but that wasn't
That sounds like a lot to ask ofa first, second year out postdoc.
Yeah.
But at that time it was only meand my boss, at the department,
and of course a brilliant secretarywho was basically doing my job.
I, did a lot of it, but she hadthe institutional knowledge.
(08:26):
that was brilliant.
I'm just curious, if the role had havebeen less of the teaching curriculum
development and more space for research,do you, could you imagine, I know it's
imagining a world that didn't happen, butcould you imagine that you may have been
able to get inspiration for research?
(08:49):
It might have been.
I had more brain space.
Yes.
Yeah.
But that's still somethingI'm very proud of.
I even advocated for myself, I went tothe vice director for staff and told
him that this is untenable, and then hereduced my teaching, which was, useful.
Yes.
and,
(09:10):
but I, just really lacked, I was in aslump after the PhD, basically, as is
apparently normal in academic careers.
Yes.
Who am I now?
Yeah.
I didn't have between conferences, my bosstelling me I need to apply for third party
funding this, curriculum development.
(09:32):
I had no inspiration for anysort of direction I wanted
to go in with my research.
I started a project, butI abandoned it gladly.
After I quit that job.
I always had this, question in theback of my mind, is that right for me?
And so I went to therapy andtalked about with the therapist
(09:56):
and said, I can't make this work.
Everyone is saying youneed to work 60 hours.
I cannot work 60 hoursand I don't want it.
And he said, then findyour own way to do it.
And then I just quit.
So
That's, that's brave.
Yeah.
But it's, yeah, I've, talked this throughwith colleagues and some of them said, the
(10:16):
whole university basically said it's bravebecause it's a very small university.
So it was, I got lots of callssaying, why did you quit from
the team, upwards and downwards.
And everyone was applauding mea little bit for this decision.
But I had a boyfriendthen who had his own flat.
And so I had a securefinancial background.
(10:39):
Yeah.
In that sense.
And I was then able to have ajob for one or two years where
I earned only 1,300 Euros.
So by having this livingspace basically, and
I had the feedback from other peoplewho aren't as financially secure in
academia, that it's actually not thatbrave, and who are still in academia
(11:00):
because that's the only way they canhave an income for the whole family.
Yeah.
which is that parents, sister and so on.
It's hard, isn't it?
And the, trade offs and, thecircumstances, they're not easy decisions.
If you didn't have that safety net,maybe you couldn't have done it and you
would, would've been like some otherpeople, as you just said, who stayed on,
(11:24):
then there's the cost of that untenable.
Yeah, I, I would stillhave done it pretty, yeah.
Because if you just have too muchthen, or you can't make it work then.
I've always been taught by mymother to leave things behind and
she has modeled that basically.
And so that's always my approach.
(11:47):
if it's more sad making than ishappy making, then I'm not doing it.
so I'm a bit uncompromising in that.
But it's, important to recognize alsothat, privilege that not everyone has
when they make the career decisions.
And then I thankfully found lots ofdifferent jobs through none of them
(12:07):
through, regular applications, butthrough networks that I already had.
so one woman from Carinthia knew,a man in Graz who ran, run an
NGO for youth and equality work.
And so I worked with him for a yearon a project on antisemitism that
was, From funded from a political,education body and from the municipality.
(12:33):
that was also a time when I hadmany health issues, I think, due to
having been so stressed out earlier.
So at that time, a chronicillness manifested itself.
So I had a 15 hour job and I wasable to go there, and do all of it,
and still be very chronically ill.
but that thankfully, got better overtime and these mini NGO contracts were
(12:59):
quite good for that because I didn'thave to be in the office all the time.
Nice.
So Nice.
And that gave me the start into thisNGO work, NGO research education
work, where you do needs analysis.
And then prepare educationalconcepts from them with this specific
(13:21):
background was antisemitism prevention.
and then I moved through a womanwho works at the university or
worked at the University of Graz inthe equality office for 30 years.
I think she connected me with anotherNGO, which is the Männer Beratung in Graz.
So the men's counseling centeralso, decades old institution,
(13:42):
which has a research path,which is also quite old already.
And they do lots of EU Daphneviolence preventative grants.
So they apply for grants a lot andhave about 10 to 15 ongoing projects,
which are funded by the EU or bydifferent health, funding bodies or
by municipality, province and so on.
(14:03):
Or even by people who contract them for,
institutions that have a problemwith violence, or sexual abuse, for
example, and need them to come inand do research and then find out
how to make the institution better.
I got that connection and they tookme on, in five different research,
(14:25):
project projects in a 15 hour contract.
So that was, lots ofbusiness trips nicely.
So I got to go, I got to go toSofia and to Southern Tyrol, and to,
Barcelona for all these EU projects.
Nice.
Yeah.
Very good.
But all of them were on the topic of,preventing sexual abuse against boys.
(14:46):
Or sexualized violence, and discriminationagainst boys and training people
who work with children to create anenvironment where these children can
tell them that this is happening.
So I did that for three years untilI couldn't take it anymore because
that's also a job where you wouldneed a lot of community with your
colleagues and a lot of, supervision.
(15:09):
And through this third party funding,framework, there wasn't really a lot of
time to spend time with the colleagues,in the office because it was, the
colleagues were all over Europe basically.
And, the people who headed the institutealso had quite bit on their plate.
(15:30):
So I quit that then, andthat there we come to 2020.
so that's just, another exampleof you being very reflective
of what's going on for me.
What do I need, what's working for menow and when is it not working anymore?
And time to go.
Like your mother.
(15:51):
Yeah.
Role model again.
Yeah.
And by that time I also had thischronic illness, so that taught me never
to do more than I think I can take.
Because I really, I. So that manifestedin 2016 and then, in 2020, I was
still, so much in the throes of itthat I always stated my boundaries
(16:15):
very clearly to every employer.
And I'm also really proud of, I've had,to, while I was working at the NGOI was
also working at the German Universityremotely to do also violence prevention.
And I, that was a, I think fourmonth, six month remote contract.
And.
I did a curative retreat duringthat because in the Austrian state
(16:36):
you can go on curative retreats,so for the chronic illness.
So I had a job in Germany, in theGerman system and a job in Austria, both
of them part-time and partly remote.
And I told everyone, I'm now going onthis curative retreat because I need it.
And I somehow made it work throughall that administration and both
(16:57):
employers were just happy with it.
And yeah.
So I was, basically on a journeysince 2016 to tell everyone my
boundaries and the conditions underwhich I want to work and, that's good.
Yeah.
You said, the people made itwork or were happy with it.
And you also, when you said beforethat you quit the first postdoc
(17:19):
job and So many people said, why?
and in the end were supportive in that.
Were you surprised by people support, wereyou anticipating more pushback or that
people would not want you to be holdingyour boundaries and, do what they wanted?
(17:39):
No.
yeah, I was neither surprised,nor did I anticipate that it
would be un uncomfortable.
Obviously my boss very much when hebrought me on as a postdoc saw himself
in the role as supporting my career.
And looking back, I canunderstand everything he did
as trying to be supportive.
Yes.
When I was, only 30 and not have,not having been in academia for
(18:01):
very long, I didn't recognize it.
And I recognized it more as him puttingpressure on me and reacted as such.
And, in that sense, I obviously,I felt very bad about quitting
this job after two years and he.
He was all on the journeywith me for a long time.
In fact, in that talk where I toldhim I quit, he said he would try
(18:26):
to negotiate a development contractfor me to keep me on for longer.
Yeah.
And I just said, no thank you.
And then obviously he told me, then I'mnot going to support you anymore, which.
Also wasn't necessary, but I managed,despite being so strong with my
boundaries, I think everyone, remembersme not in a, adversarial manner.
(18:49):
So he, still called me up two years laterto ask, can I come back for half a year?
Because someone has just gone on.
Oh, nice.
Yeah, it's nice.
So it's a just, a goodmessage that you can hold your
boundaries and make that work.
Yeah.
I think if you're generallya nice person to work with.
(19:10):
Yeah, And respectful of thepeople and, to let them know
it's also, yeah.
It's also just interesting, forpeople who are in leadership roles
or employing people like postdocs,that tension of wanting to support
people's career development.
And recognizing the pressuresof the current environment
(19:31):
and system that we're in.
And often that does, this inadvertentlytranslate into some pressures to
play the game more and work the longhours and tick all the boxes and
on that, if I had just had moreknowledge about how academia works,
and if he had just explained, whyhe wants me to do this, that and the
(19:54):
other, and in what way this wouldcontribute to my path, I might have
understood and not rejected it so much.
so he just said, you Johanna now it'stime, you're on the six year contract
to apply for third party funding.
And I just didn't understand.
I didn't understand that I nowneeded to be the PI of my own project
and I need to develop leadershipand I need to go out there with
(20:17):
my own ideas and be independent.
And he also explained none of it.
And there was also no structure inplace, like a postdoc office or,
something that would have drawn me into explain me these things somehow.
Yeah.
And he didn't really do much explainingbecause all of them in that generation,
they all learned by doing basically.
(20:38):
And I tried for the longesttime to just model what everyone
else was doing without reallyunderstanding why they were doing it.
Going to lots of conferences.
Okay.
That's good.
Not really having an intentionbehind it other than that
I saw what they were doing.
And then, you have your people who standup in front of, training for women,
(21:03):
career training for women, and say,you're going to work on the weekends.
It's going to be hard.
And so all of these messages I took onboard and thought, okay, some people say
this, so some people must also do this.
And where do I fit in that?
And that was, also what led me to quitbecause I thought, if there's no one
else who does it like I do it, who doesit to my abilities with weekends and
(21:27):
family time and, friends and going tothe sauna and stuff like that, then
how am I going to do this and howam, how will I be where I need to be
with all these impermanent contracts?
And yeah.
Yeah, but all of that was solvedvery quickly after I, I left this
(21:47):
job because despite having then thesemany, contract jobs, I, felt there's
so many people who want my skillsand they are also appreciative.
And the NGO world, is notshy with giving praise.
then the, then academia was for me, andthere's not a reviewer, around every
(22:08):
corner who you have to network with.
There's just people who are happy forthe mission, wanting to end violence, or
wanting to engage youth or, wanting theworld to be a much better place and they
celebrate everyone who comes on boardbasically, despite the obviously funding
(22:29):
situation being shit and stressing.
But, they, yeah, even that equalityoffice in Germany, they were, really,
really appreciative and said, so nicethat you are here with your skills.
And just, took me with my remotecontract and I got to meet
everyone in the university becauseI did a project on preventing
(22:52):
sexualized harassment on campus.
So I had to do interviews witheveryone from the president, to it
service to all the dean and so on.
And they just, welcomed me,as the strange Austrian.
And so lots of healingexperiences after academia.
Ah, good.
And, This stress about temporary contractsresolved itself a bit by me thinking, ah,
(23:17):
okay, I have something that actually isin demand, or there are things happening
for me and I have a good network.
but that doesn't mean that Iwasn't really happy when I got my
first permanent contract in 2021.
And what was your firstpermanent contract?
in 2020 then when I didn't want to workon, preventing sexualized abuse anymore,
(23:41):
another friend of mine said, oh, there'sa maternity cover at the University
of Graz to work with researchers.
And then I thought, oh, that'sgoing to be very traumatic.
I think I do that
Going back into the university.
Yeah.
I'm not sure if I've, resolved everythingfrom the last, since 2016, but I did
(24:03):
it anyway and did that job interview.
They are still, my colleagues are stillfondly remembering, when they interviewed
me that I said, I cannot work on a Friday,because that's when I get massages.
So take it or leave it.
And, sadly, I now have to work onFridays because I'm much better.
I have 40 hours now.
(24:23):
But, they nevertheless, took thismaternity cover and it was working
with, doctoral researchers and then.
And, actually already at the end of thisyear, the vice rector for Research, who
is now the president of the AustrianScience Fund, who we were working for, he
wanted to do something for postdoctoralresearchers and then we started a needs
(24:46):
assessment and, talking to a third ofall the postdocs, the university had.
And then together with him veryclosely, developing measures.
And by the time he got the call to becomethe president of the Austrian Science
Fund, that was all basically prepared.
And, someone needed togive me a permanent job.
(25:08):
they did it.
And, since then, since 2021, endof 2021, I've I had the joy for 40
hours a week on a permanent contractto build up this postdoc office.
And now five years, no.
Three, four years later, we establisheda new unit that now houses the doctoral
(25:28):
researcher services, the postdocoffice, and is also developing,
services for mid-career researchers.
And, I'm now its boss.
So lovely.
I'm very happy.
Oh, that's, just a lovely journey.
The holding your boundaries, the waythings work out, the way that you can
(25:51):
bring through the skills and knowledgeand expertise that you have and pointing
out along the way, like the criticalthings that we often don't think
about, that the conversations thatwe have with people are so important.
So no one told you the why becausewe just assume that everyone knows
because it's just, it just isthe environment that we are in.
(26:13):
So not understanding whysome of the things were being
asked or, suggested or pushed.
And then the messages that you weregetting were, well of course you've got to
work weekends and makes me really reflectabout how how we are messaging, And how
explicit we are with people to explain.
(26:35):
And also like how many times as aresearcher working in a university
did someone say to you, so nicethat you are here with your skills.
Not so many times.
And wouldn't that be wonderful if yourprofessor said to you so nice that you
are here with your skills, your skills.
(26:58):
I have this card still here, above meand that I got when I came to Luneburg
in Germany and that Christmas cardwhere it has that, we are so happy
that you're here with your skills.
And it's, even though it's a ChristianChristmas card for some reason because
you had it lying around, I, I stillhave it because it's so important to me
(27:19):
that I was able to make the switch andthat I was able to meet these people
who were healing me a little bit.
Yeah.
And it's such a small gesture and lookat the impact that it's still having.
The fact that you do have the card there,that it's something that you remember and
when you were talking about it, the wayyour face softened and lit up as well.
(27:42):
just remembering, I don't know, it'salmost like you were re-basking in
the glow of that appreciation, sucha small gesture, but so impactful.
Yeah.
And with these messages, I try not tostress any researchers out in my job now.
I don't know how good I am at that, but I,try to tell stories in my workshops about
(28:07):
people who make it work, 20 hours a week.
And many different stories of all thepeople I know who, because I'm now seeking
out these people who made their own path,that is not like this story of you have to
work weekends and you cannot have friends.
Yeah.
So I'm always looking for the storiesand then I'm telling them to people.
(28:28):
And I can also see the impact ofthis because I invited this friend
of mine, for example, who has always.
Worked in the same university andnow has a permanent job there.
And she comes from a,Gastarbeiter, or rather not a
Gastarbeiter, a refugee family.
And, I invited her to tell this to all ofour postdocs, at one of our, annual event.
(28:53):
And she actually inspired one person whoalso cannot be mobile because he cares for
his parents, to ask for a permanent job.
And he now has one.
That's probably wasn't theonly thing that inspired him.
Probably it's his, skillsand research brilliance and,
and his negotiation, prowess.
(29:14):
but I, saw he was talking toher afterwards, and so I'm,
thinking, yeah, that's a littlebit my contribution and yeah.
So when you talk about fun andkind academia, is that your
personal mission in your role?
Yeah.
That fun and kind.
(29:34):
That's the kindness aspect of it.
That will be more the be kind to yourself,
and seek out the people who arealso collaborative and, solidarity.
That was always what I tried, when Iwas working in academia, I did lots
of peer group work, so this peergroup for qualitative methods, alumni
(29:57):
work, everything that brought peopletogether, female accountability groups.
So I don't really like accountability,so I didn't work very much, but just
the female solidarity parts of it.
And, I tried that asfar as I could take it.
Basically, this is solidarity and I,found it ends where someone needs to
(30:19):
fulfill things, for their contracts.
and then they can't collaborateanymore because they need, people on a
higher level to collaborate with them.
Or other, yeah, actual instances ofpower abuse, for example, I had a
boss once who made me write a very badreview, of someone who she didn't like.
(30:42):
And that was my veryfirst publication ever.
She just said, put in this onesentence, and I just put it in
and, I obviously feel bad about it.
It was like this wasn't veryoriginal or something, so it
wasn't the worst thing ever.
But obviously, an instance of powerabuse because I was in my first job ever.
(31:04):
not going to go intomore details about this.
Yeah.
But.
Many times actually, I cried whenexperienced that other people aren't
as or cannot be or have been formedin such a way by the system that
they cannot be collaborative andthey cannot be, kind to each other.
Yeah.
And now, it's not that I'm taking revengeon the system, it's basically just that
(31:30):
I'm taking a solution focused approachand drawing out all the things where
people are nice to each other and wherestructures are working so that they can
be nice to each other where they areestablishing new structures, together.
And there are so manyinstances of this anyway.
When we talk, the postdoc office does alot of influencing, on LinkedIn and in
(31:53):
our workshops and public discussions andthrough speakers and so on, we always try
to acknowledge the, harming structuresor the bad things that are happening, but
also, and that they are structural, butalso the solutions that individuals find.
And that actually things like CoARA,big, movements where that are aimed
(32:16):
at changing the structures and it'snot, everything is not doom and gloom
and there are so many people who,get together and, form movements.
yes.
Yeah, that's so just fun and kind.
It's just focusing on the Yeah.
The nicer things thatmake it better for us.
Just for people who may not be familiarwith it CoARA is an initiative at
(32:40):
European level, and it's the Coalitionfor Advancing Research Assessment.
And they're part of really trying toshift some of the structural issues.
Yeah.
Reforming what we acknowledge as aresearch, good research performance.
Yeah.
So where doing things for youruniversity also counts and doing
(33:02):
things for the students also counts.
And doing things for society also countsas much as an impact factor and moving
away from that impact factor as to notpermit too much scientific fraud as well.
Yes.
So that's my understanding of it.
And also the.
It's very good at acknowledging thecollegiality aspect and the fact that
there, It's not the lone researcher,but there are multiple roles that
(33:25):
contribute to research outputs.
Now obviously now I work forthe Rectorate of a University,
I also can't go around and say you workingat the university is shit or working in
academia is shit, because first of all, Idon't believe working at the University of
Graz is shit because I enjoy quite a lot.
(33:46):
I know a lot of people who like it alot, but it wouldn't be, good, neither
for my mission nor for my employer if Itold everyone how harmful academia is.
Because I want the peopleto thrive in academia and I
want them to change academia.
And I, all of these, for example, femalemathematicians at our department, despite
(34:12):
the fact that they are all basicallycompeting with each other, you never
notice that because they just areso supportive, mentoring each other,
mentoring people in other countries,putting up, lunch, clubs, and, everything.
And.
So these are actually thepeople who are going in the
university committees and so on.
(34:33):
So they make it an a livable experience.
but there is a tension between speakingfor an employer, wanting your employer
to recruit great people who alsobenefit the collegial aspect of our
togetherness here at the university.
And to be seen by people asjust saying, everything is
great and we're so collegial.
(34:54):
And I think I, as an anthropologist,I know, everything is power relations
and everything is, structure, shapeshow we interact and And there's
many bad things going on in short.
But I also believe we have agencyto shape it, and I want people
to get together to, to, yeah.
(35:16):
So what do you think, you talkedabout solutions focus, like there
are structural issues and I thinkthat one of the things about the
anthropology background is sitting inthe middle of all that messy complexity.
So the structural issues and you talkedabout solutions focused and the agency.
So what do you think, that either youpromote through your office or that you
(35:41):
do, in your work, what are the key areasof agency that you think make a difference
or maybe some examples of initiatives?
I've, had to accept that I have limitedscope in my work, so I also have
to rely on the people I work with.
So the postdocs themselvesto do things for themselves.
(36:05):
And I can't change, many of the structureswhich they would want to change.
For example, if
things that postdocs said in 20 20,20 21 that they want changed, still
haven't changed because some of themare at the faculty level, for example,
where I have limited influence.
(36:28):
A very wise professor who's now aprofessor once told me, you can also rely
on the people to fight for themselves.
And that helped me a lot.
She's one of the creators of thenetwork against power abuse in academia.
So she has had the experience froma PhD candidate onwards that she was
able to actually establish structuresthat make academia better place.
(36:49):
So she, found PhD Net at Max Planck,and then she found that this network
against power abuse and she nowhas about a hundred ERC grants.
I'm, over exaggerating.
anyway, she is brilliant.
And that after three years of thepostdoc office where I saw, people,
the university still, people stillcome to me with the same complaints.
(37:13):
There's not much transparency.
Information isn't being passed down to me.
I'm actually being prohibitedfrom going into some committees.
I don't actually know how things work.
Yeah, it was a goodconversation with her to know.
That's not talking aboutany initiatives right now.
That's just talking about how I survivein my job, in which people, yeah
(37:35):
come to me with problems every day.
The problems that not necessarilystem from our university either,
that they had in their lastuniversity, and it challenges them
still, in their daily work here.
So I try to give competent advice.
For example, if you have, experiencedpower abuse in a former job, I can now
(37:55):
tell you five people who you can talk to.
So that's how I work.
by being accessible for all thebad things that can happen to you.
And then knowing how, who to connectyou with and knowing, having insider
knowledge basically into many differentthings, many different parts of the
researcher experience and then relyingon people to do it themselves basically.
(38:21):
And asking them to check back inwith me and report, but go out
and seek the solutions themselves.
And we have also, we have aconflict resolution contact point.
So the university has manystructures you can send people to.
There also know many structuresoutside the university.
That's now for conflict, but,The researcher experience
(38:44):
is much more than conflicts.
Yeah.
And I try to make myself as knowledgeablein all the things like publishing or
career development or anything else.
And in terms of, programs, we usedto run a peer mentoring program.
Now we have a workshop where youlearn how to give collegial advice
(39:04):
and support in a structured manner.
We have a fiasco fest, whichcelebrates failure and creates
(lovely) this community.
Yeah.
It's really funny that a psychologyprofessor thought it up and came to me
when we started the Postoc office andthen we made the concept, the two of us.
And it's, people sharing theirtops and flops and looking at the
(39:28):
top and flop CVs that they have.
And then, just drinking a little bitafterwards, as far as they're comfortable
and then burning all of their fiascos.
That's the short of it, but she givesobviously competent psychological
advice on how to prepare yourselffor the inevitable setbacks that
will be part of any career basically.
(39:49):
And that serves the purpose of alsogetting people together and talking
in a way that they don't usually talk.
Or maybe they don't have so many, areasin their own workplace where they, can
open up and can see, oh, okay, someoneelse is having exactly the same issues.
And that also happensat the writing retreat.
(40:11):
We have a yearly retreat forthree days where, which includes,
time in the sauna if you want.
So someone told me once, that's thefirst experience of academic sisterhood
that they, they had in the sauna at thewriting retreat with other researchers
that they've never seen before.
And but the writing retreat is actuallylike structured writing time with
(40:34):
a writing facilitator where you getthree meals a day and your schedule
is being, taken care of for you.
And she just tells you when towrite and she helps you with
any, issues that come, across.
And she makes you go out to exerciseor to take a walk and, Afterwards, it's
just, holidaying in this resort basically.
(40:56):
And these are all things that serveto form the community and people
will then get in WhatsApp groupstogether or just see each other again
and have seen each other previously.
And so we work a lot with thatresearcher wellbeing, through
researcher wellbeing, and community,having paperwork on their careers.
(41:16):
So I don't go around and hitthem on the head with the career
board or the career planning.
I just try to create spaces that arefirst educational for them or hit any
spot that they like needing to finish apaper or needing to know how to perform
in the interview for a professorship,but also do it with nice people.
(41:39):
And that's the approach basically.
I think I said three main popular.
Popular programs.
Can I dig in on a couple of those?
I love the Fiasco Fest.
That's brilliant.
And the writing retreat.
You said at the beginning you, youhave a program where you talk to
people about, you're not doing thepeer mentoring anymore, but you're
(42:04):
Training people in how todo the collegial advice.
Could you say a littlebit more about that?
yes, we, what could be atip or a trick for that?
Ah, okay.
the genesis of that is that forthree years we had peer groups, so
they spent a year with each other.
And that's also our approach.
We believe the community already hasknowledge and resources, and they
(42:26):
just need to be brought together.
Yeah.
they don't necessarilyneed to be taught anything.
they just need to connectwith each other to share that.
And there is a model that'scalled Kollegiale Fallberatung.
In French Canadian.
Collegial development collegial and inEnglish action items I think or something.
(42:48):
Action learning sets.
Learning.
Yes, exactly.
Yes.
Yeah.
So it's all basically the same concept.
Yeah.
And at the start of each peergroup, they were taught this,
method by a trainer, practically.
And then that's what theywould do in their sessions.
And now these peer groups.
(43:08):
So we have 350 postdocs and eightor so always applied for this.
And everyone from the other postdocoffices around the world always
said, wow, that's impressive.
No one applied.
Wouldn't apply for somethinglike this at our university.
But now it seems to be something weneed to wait for another two years
until we have the interest again.
(43:29):
So we had only fourpeople apply this year.
So what we offer now, isjust methods training.
how to sit together, raise an issue,and then, in a specific agenda,
go through the issues where thegroup develop solutions for you.
You are not allowed to say anything,and then you, allowed to react to
(43:50):
what they said, and then you couldtogether maybe map out the plan for
you to actually take action and then.
A week later, a month later, two monthslater, you meet the group again, and then
you, we can report how that issue went.
And we also use thisfor supervisor training.
So we have a group that's calledSupervisor Network, and some of them
(44:13):
were previous graduates of this peermentoring and some are just, rather
experienced university professors.
And they got all together to,discuss critical situations
from their supervisory practice.
And I, saw in that, they presentedit this year in April, that
doing this for three years hasinfluenced the university somehow.
(44:36):
Nice.
Towards more supportive supervisorypractices or dealing with situations
more, more constructively.
Just people have caught on to this ideaof you can do something with a peer group.
it's, there is a platform whereyou can find these peers and there
are tools and it's an acknowledgedconcept now in the method, in
(44:56):
the professional form of gettingtogether and improving our practice.
Basically.
And this is now a group made out of seniorpostdocs and established professors and,
I hope with this new method trainingthat also goes into all the faculties,
or all other universities where thepeople might go to and they, yes, they
(45:20):
have some topic be supervision, be it,I don't know, just career decisions
and then they can say, there's actuallystructured methods and we could meet
once a month or something like that.
And, so yeah, I think that has potential.
Yeah.
And it's, that's obviously was not me.
I wasn't the first personwho thought of the,
(45:40):
i'm actually an action learningset facilitator, trained.
Oh.
And it's brilliant to hear how thetransition from the more structured, you
meet, depending on what model you use,six sessions and there's the commitment.
And this sounds like it's taking theprinciples and working with the reality
of people being busy and letting theminterpret the principles to meet when
(46:04):
they want and as often as they want.
That's brilliant.
Yeah.
Maybe can you say it briefly aboutthe action learning sets, because
it's probably sounding betterwhen you, when it comes from you.
It is a peer mentoring process, isn't it?
And often the way it's moretraditionally set up, and I always
had the question in my mind abouthow well it works in academia to get
(46:27):
the commitment for people to turn up.
But normally you have five or six people,you have a facilitator who will role
model how to structure a conversation.
The people agree to get togetherin regular period, could be
once a month or whatever, maybefor about five or six meetings.
At the beginning, usually everyone goesaround and just says what they might
(46:51):
talk about, what could be an issue.
And then the group decideswhich one they focus on.
And then exactly the processthat you talked about.
Although what I was taught wasmore about instead of the group
coming up with solutions, the groupcoming up with the questions to
help the person thinks through.
And then at the end they can bring insome ideas or solutions themselves.
(47:15):
So anyway,
Yeah, that was what Ialso understood in Yeah.
Also that element where you arenot allowed to say anything.
Is that also in your action learning sets?
Where the person who brings the problem,they are responding to the questions and
they're not listening to other peoplejust talking about their own problems.
(47:36):
There's a round where you say, doesanyone want to bring a case for today?
Yes.
Basically, yeah.
And then you bring the case and thenpeople can ask many questions just if
they haven't understood and then theydiscuss without you involving yourself.
So in that, the way that I havelearned it, not the actual learning
set, but the colleague, yeah.
(47:56):
You sit there for about 10 minutes,15 minutes listening to the
people expound on what you do.
And also, Geraldine we did that, inour ethno psychoanalysis supervisory
group that we had for fieldwork, which was the Balint model.
Do you know the Balintmodel from psychotherapy?
(48:17):
No.
I thinks psychotherapists get together,to reflect on critical cases from
their work in the Balint group model.
We did that when I was a PhD candidateor when I did field work still.
We had a group with a supervisorwho was psychoanalytically trained
and also an anthropologist, andsomeone said, I had this interview.
(48:39):
I'm now going to tell you about it.
Or, I had this situation in my field work,and then the people are discussing it.
On the basis of emotionsthat this brought up.
So it was a way to make visiblerelationships in field work through
the emotions of other people who havejust heard what you were talking.
And you could then see somethinghappening in this group, that you
(49:03):
might have realized was present asa topic in your field work or was a
relationship issue in your field work.
And, this is what I did when I was aresearcher and it's, not dissimilar
say to what the peer groups are doing,but yeah, we have a facilitator come in
who does this, training in the methods.
(49:25):
I enjoy that element where otherpeople are talking about your
problem and you can lean back.
Yes.
See, ah, that's interesting.
Hadn't thought about that angle.
Yeah.
The other thing that I'd love to hear moreabout, you talked about the researchers'
wellbeing and, community building andthat was a point you brought up at the
end and some education around that.
(49:45):
So what are some of thekey planks of that one?
Oh, that's just, that was just to saythat I, don't say we are a career center.
We're, we are a center that strives tocreate, good environments for researchers
to feel well at work, basically.
Okay.
So the mission isn't foremostto develop your career.
(50:08):
The mission is to have a good workingenvironment and feel well in yourself.
And from that then, stemseverything else basically.
The concept would be take care ofyourself first, and, look at your
resources, have a focus on whatfeeds you, what, nurtures you.
(50:30):
Yesterday I heard someone saying, Genuss.
What's the word in English?
Joy?
Yeah.
But more you know, yeah.
this savor.
Yes.
Savoring.
Savoring.
And, that, that's my approach when Iget together with people in coaching.
So that's my approach.
We always have food for people,and in fact, people who live our
(50:53):
university say to me, thanks,Johanna, for all the free food.
And, but we never do an event thathas not any benefit for your career.
So everything is informationaland everything is networking
and everything is, actually veryimportant information for you.
But, it's around eating.
(51:15):
It's around being in nature.
It's around, Asking yourself, howlong hours can I work or what, do I
do to recharge and, where are otherpeople who can help me recharge?
And, what's my community and what areall the supportive environments I can map
(51:36):
out and how can I put them into place?
And how can I defend those boundarieswhen once I have identified what
feeds me, how can I maintain thatand do I have to, and then does it
become too stressful to maintain it?
And then can I just let it go?
Or yeah, what can I letgo of that stresses me.
(51:58):
yeah.
Nice.
So just in wrapping, what feeds you?
I like to go to the sauna.
That's my, actually mymain hobby in my life.
But what also feeds me is having,this very stable job where I have lots
of, space for creativity and lots ofagency, and we have lovely leadership,
(52:21):
which is lets us do what we wantbecause they always see it's good.
And the colleagues are really funny.
And I used to be often very alonebecause I was the only PhD at my
department then I was the only postdoc.
Yeah.
So all these peer groups I madewere also because I'm lonely and now
there's people who are very alignedwith what I do and from whom I could
(52:44):
learn a lot because they were alreadythere for a long time when I came.
And they are also really funny.
And so that, that feeds me, going towork, being able to set my own agenda
and being together with people who areyeah, just, nice and competent and,
and like taking obviously evenings,weekends sauna time, holidays, eating.
(53:08):
Oh, that sounds brilliant.
That sounds brilliant.
Yes.
Is there anything that youwant to say that you wanted
to say that we haven't said?
No, I made a few notes of talking points.
maybe just as an explainer of whyI didn't know how academia works is
because I didn't know anyone who workedin academia and I still have very
(53:29):
little friends who work in academia.
And my family are in the Austrianrailways or in the Austrian
steel works historically.
they were obviously likedpublic infrastructure but
weren't academically inclined.
Yeah.
So I'm also conscious of that.
I have to explain things now because noteveryone has the same background and.
(53:50):
Exactly.
I'm also, yeah.
Sometimes puzzling how I am now despitethe fact that I, suffered because I
didn't know the rules, I can now translatethese rules, make them more transparent.
But I'm still in an environmentthat has many hierarchies because
yeah, I'm now support staff.
(54:12):
And we like to say we feed the missionof research and not only researchers as
people, but often it's also noticeablethat there are hierarchies and sometimes,
the postdocs I work with are all brilliantand really appreciative as other PhD
candidates and many professors as well.
(54:34):
But sometimes you can notice,these hierarchies a little bit.
Yes.
University leadership, not much.
They don't seem to have any sortof, a need to, claim their status.
They're very,
They already firmly stand in it.
Yeah.
As well.
That wasn't a very good ending word.
(54:55):
But just to say, not everythingis happy all the time.
Yeah.
But that we do have a lot of agency.
You've pointed to the Yeah.
The multiple ways that we do have agency.
The ways that we can contribute toone another by not assuming people
know, by explaining, by reachingout, by saying we appreciate people.
(55:17):
And, also the power of community.
So much of what you've talked about isconnecting people and, the wisdom and
the expertise we all have and sharewhether it's of our fiascos, of our flops
and tops or whatever, like we, yeah.
And on your own terms, on yourown terms, as much as you can,
(55:40):
on your own terms.
That's a great, finish.
So thank you so much.
This has just been wonderful Johanna.
I really appreciate your time.
Thanks Geraldine.
Yes, that super that you attentivelylisten to me for an hour and gave
me the space to talk about myself.
That's also feeding me.
(56:01):
Oh, that's good.
Thank you.
You can find the summary notes, atranscript and related links for this
podcast on www.changingacademiclife.com.
You can also subscribe to ChangingAcademic Life on iTunes, Spotify.
(56:21):
And I'm really hoping that we canwiden the conversation about how
we can do academia differently.
And you can contribute to this by ratingthe podcast and also giving feedback.
And if something connected withyou, please consider sharing this
podcast with your colleagues.
Together we can make change happen.
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