January 10, 2024 • 38 mins
Dr Katta Spiel is an Assistant Professor at TU Wien, a recent ERC Starting Grant recipient, and a good colleague of mine. In part two of our conversation, Katta discusses being neurodivergent, and experiences with ADHD, and being an activist for change with an example of how gender is dealt with in research, and about 'epistemic plurality and the importance of making space for different ways of being and knowing. They conclude by advocating for respectful curiosity about individual experiences and allowing others space to perform their best work. They also argue for a lab culture where personal needs can be discussed and respected, suggesting this encourages more open dialogue and a supportive environment.
This conversation picks up from Part one where Katta shared their experiences on topics like career uncertainty, proposal rejections, coming out as queer, chronic health issues, being successful, and notions of normativity.
Overview:
[00:00:00] Introduction
[00:01:56] Personal Journey with Neurodivergence
[00:06:42] Strategies for Navigating Neurodivergence
[00:10:05] Dealing with a world not made for Neurodivergence
[00:15:39] Creating a Supportive Environment for Neurodivergence
[00:20:12] The Intersection of Neurodivergence and Activism
[00:26:19] Embracing different ways of being and knowing
[00:33:27] Final Thoughts on Neurodivergence and Inclusivity
[00:35:44] My final reflections
[00:38:06] End
Related links:
Katta's personal web page, TU Wien web page, LinkedIn page, and announcement about their ERC Starting Grant
Gender paper: Katta Spiel, Oliver L. Haimson, and Danielle Lottridge. 2019. How to do better with gender on surveys: a guide for HCI researchers. interactions 26, 4 (July-August 2019), 62–65. https://doi.org/10.1145/3338283
Hanne de Jaegher https://hannedejaegher.net
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Geri (00:05):
Welcome to Changing Academic Life.
I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this isa podcast series where academics and
others share their stories, provideideas, and provoke discussions about what
we can do individually and collectivelyto change academic life for the better.
(00:29):
Welcome to part two ofmy conversation with Dr.
Katta Spiel.
Katta is an assistantprofessor at TU Wien.
And, also a recent recipient of an ERCstarting grant, which in the European
context is a very prestigious grant.
And Katta's also a very good colleagueof mine for a number of years.
(00:51):
In part, one of myconversation with Katta.
They talk about their experiencesaround career uncertainty as
a postdoc before they got thiscurrent tenure track position.
And other issues like dealing withrejection of proposals coming out as
queer dealing with chronic health issues.
And we end up there talkingabout normative approaches
(01:13):
to technologies and bodies.
We go on here in part two whereKatta talks about their personal
journey with being diagnosedwith ADHD, being neurodivergent.
And what it's like negotiatingliving in a world that doesn't really
make space for different ways ofknowing and different ways of being
and for different types of bodies.
(01:35):
And also talking about, being anactivist and feeling that sense of
injustice around many of these issuesand trying to make that difference.
And ending with an encouragementfor us all to be curious about the
different ways of being and knowing.
So.
enjoy part two of this conversation.
(01:56):
It brings up this notion of what weassume is normative, approaches to
all sorts of things, whether it'sAcademia, gender filling in on forms,
goals for fitness trackers and so on.
Yeah.
And you also talk aboutbeing neurodivergent.
(02:18):
Yes.
And I, I'm sitting here watching Katta,do cross stitching as, as we're speaking.
Katta (02:26):
Yeah.
In this case, yeah, um, now, I've beendoing that recently again, um, because I
felt it was more portable than knitting.
Um, so, this is something thataccompanies me actually my entire,
like, school career and life.
When I was, uh, in primary school,in second grade, I was apparently so
hard to handle that they gave me booksto read and were like, this makes no
(02:49):
sense how you retain anything else.
But like, apparently it wentbetter when I read books in class.
Then I was like more attentive.
Um, and that like was The case forthe longest time that I was just
reading books in class and then
Geri (03:09):
while listening to the teacher Yeah, whatever concept
they were trying to explain.
Katta (03:13):
Yeah, and then
Geri (03:14):
so again the normative account of what attention is
Katta (03:17):
And then during my whole studies I was knitting Basically, once I dare to.
Um, and, uh, and I didn't even knowI was neurodivergent at that point.
I just did these things.
And now I just know what the reason forthat is, but I still do these things.
Maybe sometimes I allowthem more readily to me.
(03:38):
Because, like, I guess I would try and,and I, I would try and get through, like,
student meetings without doing that.
But now I just keep telling my students,like, I will pay more attention and be
more concise and more helpful for youif you let me do a thing next to it.
Yeah.
Like I will make more sense to you.
We will have a better relationshipand it will just be a better
(03:59):
interactive experience for you.
Mm-Hmm.
. And it's actually surprising meeven like how well that is accepted.
I mean, I also openly talk about it.
I think it's really important tokind of like for students to have
that, I don't wanna say role model,but like you are kind of put in
that position, so you have to.
Just like, whether you want or not, youjust have to kind of like, relate to that.
(04:23):
And, it does, there is a special flex inbeing like, I have a learning disability.
Geri (04:29):
So, how do you characterize your neurodivergence?
Like, learning disability?
Katta (04:33):
No, but that's how it's Characterized from the outside, right?
Mm-Hmm.
. And then I play with that.
Mm-Hmm.
. But I see it as a difference.
It's just a difference of processing,of engaging with like, I mean,
dopamine levels are, as far asI understood, dopamine levels
are, uh, lower, for example.
And there are like neurologicaldifferences, but I don't wanna like, you
know, value that one way or the other.
(04:56):
I do identify as disabled dueto like a bunch of things.
Um, and that being one of them.
But that's more in terms of likehow I encounter a world that expects
me to be different than how I am.
And that's also how I identifydisability ultimately.
So, yeah.
(05:17):
And with that, yeah.
I do, like, with the learningdisabled, that's just a flex, right?
Because like, that, thatkind of is supposed to show.
the irony behind defining it as such,because I'm like, in this classic
academic context, I seem to besuccessful enough to kind of like reach
(05:39):
a stage where this becomes ironic.
I mean, it's helpful with like, Iraise a child and like, um, when I
meet other parents and they keep onbeing like, Oh yeah, we have like,
we're discussing ADHD and whatever.
And, and they don't necessarilyknow that I have ADHD myself.
I can come out and be like, yeah, well,I have an ADHD too, and it's fine, and
I work at a university, and they'relike, you can see how they just relax,
(06:02):
like, immediately, of like, oh god, mychild can have academic success and all
that, and then I try to explain, youknow, some strategies that might help,
either from personal experience or fromliterature, and like, ultimately, just
working with the child, I guess, um,and how they can learn, and usually,
that, if you manage to have That as asource of dopamine, then like learning.
(06:30):
Then you call them.
Geri (06:32):
And you do?
Katta (06:34):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, studying again.
Geri (06:41):
Studying again.
Yeah.
Yeah..
So what, what are some of thestrategies that have worked for you?
You've already talked about doingsomething with your hands while
you're talking or listening, you know,what other ways have you been able
to work with, who you are and yourparticular ways of engaging in the
(07:01):
world to achieve this level of success
Katta (07:08):
If only I knew.
No, it's not quite as like Ido some things that I guess.
I mean, I know of a lot of strategiesof how you plan yourself because I
tried a lot and they have usually notstuck and I have to change them all
the time and how I structure my life.
But that means I know a lot of ways ofstructuring my life, which is useful to
students, I guess, because, like, I canmake a whole range of different offers.
(07:28):
I'm like, You could try this.
It doesn't work.
You could try this.
I mean, I I've been through a lot.
And it keeps on changing.
I've recently tried now with another thingand it's like, you know, that's fine.
I have accepted that about myself, thatnothing will work and, uh, only, uh, or
only if I do everything, so to speak.
Like, at some, at differentpoints, different things will work.
(07:50):
That is maybe the morepositive way to phrase that.
But also, um, yeah, it's, uh, I havetrouble like, you know, making choices
between roughly equally importantthings and that's really hard because
then, then deadlines are motivators,of course, like, cause the urgency that
(08:12):
something takes does factor in, butsometimes it has to be really, really
urgent to, to kind of, like, kick in.
Um, and you don't want to have that andyou don't want to sit around either.
But like sometimes there'sparalysis of like, what do I do now?
Because like emails, are they important?
Or is like this other thingimportant that will put me in a
better position in the long term?
Or like, how do I do this?
(08:33):
How do I do that?
Is this important now?
Actually, you should be continuouslydoing this so that, you know,
for example, I do actually tryand update my CV once a month.
So that I don't have to doit all at once because I know
that would even be worse then.
But you know, some months I justlike move it to the next month as
(08:55):
a task because like it doesn't feelthat much, like, that relevant.
But, um, still.
Sometimes it's just difficultand then I roll a die.
And so I have differentways of rolling a die.
I have physical die.
I have a die app on my watch.
I have a die app on my phone.
A serious, a serious rolling a die.
I have a Python script onmy computer that helps me.
(09:20):
Yeah, I'm not into gambling, butfor that I do have a lot of die.
And then I have like intricate systemsof like what specific numbers mean.
And like I still haven't figuredout, like cause I use six
sided die for the connoisseur.
But like sometimes Idid not know all this!
Yeah, I see.
Um, hiding it well.
(09:41):
No.
Um, but like I have a six sideddie and um, I uh, I still haven't
figured out well how to dealwith it when I have five options.
But I still feel that is the best die.
12 sided die might be better,but like for now, 6 sided die.
I've been, been holding on tothat for like at least 15 years.
(10:01):
So that is the most stablething that I've done.
Just like rolling die all the time.
Geri (10:05):
I mean, across all that you've talked about, would it be fair to say this
has been a journey of self acceptance?
Getting to know yourself,
Katta (10:21):
I mean, I got diagnosed late ish, like, um, I think I was
30 or so with ADHD, with ADHD.
Yeah.
Um, or a bit earlier, butlike around that time and, um.
And to an extent, yeah, selfacceptance, but like, it wasn't
(10:44):
even about self acceptance, butmore like accepting, accepting that
the world isn't made differently.
Like, cause I have, there's this questionwhen you get diagnosed or whether you
have an, an exaggerated need for justice.
First of all, I don't think you can havean exaggerated need for justice because
either you have a need for justice oryou don't, but like, it's not, that is,
(11:05):
that is kind of black and white, right?
Like, you know, what is justice thenlike more nuanced, but like, whether
you are for it or not, it's notnecessarily like, what is that even?
Like, anyway, um, but, uh, Besidesthat, completely weird question, um,
it was interesting, um, Because that,that, that is also like sometimes where
(11:30):
drive comes like of like, oh, thisisn't fair towards me and then like,
or towards someone else or whatever.
And I mean, that's a driverfor change and a lot of like
source for a bunch of activism.
But, um, but kind of like accepting thatI have to find a way of dealing with that.
Yeah.
Um, because like, it will beeven more unfair if I keep on
(11:51):
trying to change something that Icannot or like figuring out like.
Or trying to change my way of likeengaging with that to a point where,
you know, and I had some, some badstrategies apparently developed
over the years as well, like, um,which are just not necessarily super
helpful then for me or anyone else.
(12:15):
And we're, and so what the diagnosisbrought was kind of like going
from reacting to acting more.
Um, like I kept on saying.
back then, um, that to an extent, uh,medication allowed me to figure out how I
could be the person that I wanted to be.
And not just like, you know, tryingto survive in some kind of state.
(12:37):
Um, and that's kind ofa big thing, I guess.
Geri (12:42):
Cause you did talk about being quite reflective before in
terms of strategies and what'sgoing on and What's a priority now?
Very deliberately thinkingthrough these things in a way
that maybe many of us don't.
Katta (12:58):
Well, because like Because we stay reactive.
Oh no, I was like,because I have to, right?
Yeah.
Because it's not going to behappening implicitly either.
Geri (13:09):
I don't know whether this is the right way to ask the question,
but then What strengths has thisgiven you or highlighted for you
Katta (13:19):
Well, to an extent, the thing of like, you know, staying curious.
Like, I'm definitely notnecessarily what you would call a
specialist in like only one area.
I'm like more of a generalist.
I'm not super generalist,
So I think I'm more, I have theadvantage of drawing on more things,
(13:42):
like in keeping by necessity, um,so to speak, uh, more threads.
Uh, in parallel, and so I sometimes seeconnections that are not that available to
others, at least it seems, but also likeothers have access to connections that I
don't necessarily have and, and I'm veryappreciative of them sharing them as well.
(14:02):
Like, this is not, I'm nottrying to say like, you know,
um, that this is only a me thing.
It's, it's very much like,happening in other cases as well.
Uh, and, um, besides that, uh, I do see
I mean, ultimately, um, it's just likeI had to make this work for me, but
(14:26):
also like ultimately everybody has to,I mean, to some extent it's easier or
like it's, I guess it's easier or notas easy for others, but I actually don't
have any insight into that as well.
So I don't know necessarily how to talkabout this without being too presumptuous.
(14:47):
Um, Because, like, people have their ownstruggles and, um, and then I have a lot
of students who are just neurodivergentand so we do share the same kind of,
like, insights, but, um, but even withthose who at least do not identify as
neurodivergent, I feel like there is,like, you know, collaboration at some
(15:09):
point and, like, they, um, I mean, thatmight just be the group that has been
kind of, like, Amalgamizing around me.
But like, yeah, I don't know.
I don't want to be presumptuous andI feel like everybody has to work
around getting this thing to work.
And I, um, I maybe had to doit more explicitly than others.
(15:31):
Sometimes it feels certainly that way.
Or I might just like have nofilter and talk about it all
the time or what have you.
Geri (15:39):
So you don't operate in a vacuum, of course, you know,
you're part of this group.
I remember.
sitting at my table in my officewhere you said, Oh, by the way, I'm,
you know, I'm queer or whatever.
And, and also talking about when youwere diagnosed with ADHD, what did I do?
What did we do that was good andsupportive for you in that position?
(16:03):
And what could we have done?
What could I have donethat could have been?
better or more supportive.
Katta (16:10):
You took a whole lot of time until you learned my pronouns.
Geri (16:13):
Well, and I can't believe I misgendered you here.
I thought I was doing really well.
And I, , I remember saying to you,you know, like I've had 60 years of,
Conditioning, for a particular way ofspeaking and it's taking a while, but
Katta (16:28):
You can decide whether you leave that in, but there was this
moment where you were at some retreatin Canada that was led by a non
binary person and you came back andbasically tried to explain how being
non binary is to me and I was like, wow.
I felt a little bit like,you know, I prepared you for
this, let's say it that way.
That was a moment.
(16:51):
But like, see, that I can say thesethings, and like, I mean, you can decide
whether you leave it in or not, but um, Ican say these things, that is a, like, I
feel like you just like, you didn't haveto understand things to make them work.
And so, for example, What I reallyappreciated, I had this nervous breakdown
at one point before I was diagnosed,right, when I was sitting in your office
and was basically like, I can't do thisanymore, I am doing a PhD, I only have one
(17:16):
thing to do, I don't know what is wrongwith me, but like, I cannot, it's, it's
breaking me, quite literally, like itwas really bad, and I think I cried even,
like I had a full on mental breakdown.
And you were just like, okay,I have this other job for you.
Like you, I guess you didn't understandbecause like, I don't know, maybe you did.
Did you understand before?
I don't, I don't know.
I'm now questioning everything.
(17:37):
Yeah, exactly.
Like, right, like Ididn't know what was up.
Um, I was just like, OhGod, I need another job.
At least the second thing to do.
And, cause I also did that all the time.
Like, even during my studies, eitherI studied two things or I was in city
council as well or what have you.
And.
It was just, yeah, and you just gaveme another job and then I was like
happier and later I got diagnosed,but, um, but like these things of just
(18:00):
accepting people without having theneed to fully, like, understand that
and make sense of it for yourself andlike just being like, okay, this is
what a person needs and I don't needto, like, how can I work towards that?
I think that is great interms of an environment.
I just also needed to say something thatyou didn't do well, because otherwise
it would seem like I suck up to you.
(18:21):
And
Geri (18:23):
I demonstrated it very clearly earlier in the conversation.
For people who are in research groupswho may be leading groups or whatever,
do you have any particular advicefor them about how they might best
support people who are starting torecognize Whether it's neurodivergence
(18:46):
or, um, gender diversity issues.
Katta (18:51):
Well, just like, yeah, doing that.
Like, not trying to figure outwhat it means for them actually
beforehand, but like, rather beingin conversation and like, yeah.
Um, like, um, taking, taking themseriously when they say these things
and not being dismissive about it.
(19:12):
Um, yeah.
Geri (19:14):
Because they are life experiences, like, you've dealt with such a range of
things that you've just talked about, Idon't know, not, certainly not glibly,
but you've just talked about as matterof factly, rather, is probably a better
word, that I have no experience of.
(19:35):
And it sounds overwhelming to havegone through all that, and in awe of.
All that you've been all that you've doneand achieved and also more particularly,
I think the contributions of what you'vegiven back because in the middle of all
(19:55):
of the work that you've done to, to getto the awards and the achievements and the
grants that you've got the huge service.
You know, you talked aboutfeeling like something's not
fair, being a driver for change.
You've been really active inthat You do do a lot of peer
support and, also activism.
You talked about writing an article,like being upset about, the way gender
(20:16):
is represented in papers and writingan article about how we should talk
or co authoring an article abouthow we should talk about gender.
Katta (20:24):
That sounds almost prescriptive.
So I didn't mean itprescriptive, but like, yeah.
Like, the main message of that articleis that people should think about,
like, how, what they want to knowabout gender, why they want to know
it, and like, which groups, what isthe group conceptualization of gender.
And then we make an offer thatwill, like, you know, be useful for
(20:46):
a bunch of, like, default cases,but like, my main thing was always,
like, you need to think about this.
Because also the language keepson changing and, um, the kind of,
like, good practices around that.
Yeah.
Geri (21:00):
So it's more of an invitation to people to really be much
more thoughtful and reflective.
Katta (21:03):
Yeah, I guess.
Geri (21:05):
And you also mentioned that this was written with the
authors whose initial paper
Katta (21:09):
you Yeah, with some of them.
Yeah.
Yeah, um, Daniela Lottridge and OliverHaimson were the co authors on that one.
Um, and they are two ofthe original authors.
And it was just a paper where they kindof, it's a very good paper actually.
I mean they show how, um, how differentgroups conceptualize gender differently.
(21:32):
And so with the same way of asking gender,in that case a free text form field,
they got wildly different responsesum, between fantasy football players.
Which is a thing that mendo in the US like cis men.
It's apparently very male coded.
I have no idea how that works.
I only from that paper, Iknow that it even exists.
(21:53):
But, uh, and Tumblr userswho are notoriously queer.
Um, and so it was just like, you know, inthe one, in the first case, they got a lot
of like, but I'm a man, you can see that,like, why are you even asking me that way?
And like, why is there a freetext, or whatever, silly answers.
And then the other one, there was like,you know, nuance kind of like ways of
describing your gender and getting reallydown to like a very like descriptive
(22:16):
way and even thank yous and all that.
Um, or like, you know, just the gender.
Um, but you had that kind of like palpabledifference between kind of being thankful
and, and for the opportunity to selfexpress gender and the other one of like,
why do you make me think that is a bitmean as an interpretation on my end,
but like sometimes it feels like that.
(22:36):
Anyway, um, and that was really cool,like how they showed that you have
to have nuance about these groupsand, um, and who you ask with, uh,
and who you are asking about gender.
Um, and then.
They come to, they came to the conclusionthat, um, you should have like female,
(22:57):
male, or men, uh, woman, man, and other.
And I was like, why do youkeep literally othering us?
Like, that's not necessarily agreat choice of words, uh, I feel.
And like, it got me, it was a bitmad, cause like I, I like these
people and I was like, I expectedbetter from you, I thought you
had more understanding on that.
(23:18):
That was, I think, literallysomething I said and they do.
And um, and then I really like that,um, that revised, uh, recommendation.
First of all, it doesget a lot of attention.
That was not what I expected becauseit's just an interactions article
that doesn't go fully throughpeer review or anything, but, um.
(23:39):
But, uh, just that it also we have madethat part of like the article that you
have that continuous interaction, um,with things, which is maybe something
that I should say in terms of like,because I have the feeling that a
lot of people within our community.
So how do I phrase that?
So I've also been publiclyattacked or semi publicly for
(24:02):
being like, you know, for beingdiscriminatory towards white men.
Um, which, uh, which I'm sayingin this tone because that is
not how discrimination works.
But, um, Anyway, uh, I've been attackedfor that publicly and I also sometimes
encounter people who are like, Well,of everything that I heard of you, it's
(24:26):
surprising that you're such a nice person.
Which I'm like, firstof all, I'm not nice.
But also, like, I'm notsure what they heard.
Because like, it always comes up,I was like afraid of meeting you.
And I'm like, why though?
Because like, I'm not sure.
But it seems kind of like, thereseems to be an image around.
That, you know, where I'm justoverly critical about things.
And I do express critique prettybluntly and pretty harshly.
(24:49):
That's fair.
But it's always towards the thing, right?
Like, that doesn't mean thatI'm not willing to talk.
That doesn't even meanthat I mean that I'm right.
But I do feel these things very strongly.
And so I do kind of like put them outthere very strongly in the ways that I,
you know, kind of like engage with them.
(25:10):
But that doesn't mean that those arefixed or like set in stone either.
And like sometimes I feel itdoesn't come across that there is
more flexibility attached to that.
And I am not sure how to fixthat or whether it needs fixing.
But yeah, I think this articleparticularly is a good example of
(25:30):
what can happen when you, when youengage with critique that was brought
upon very bluntly, um, in a, in aproductive way that I think was then
beneficial to all of us ultimately.
Geri (25:42):
So I I previously hadn't I, hadn't ever thought about other as othering.
For me, it was good gestureabout non, like recognizing that
there are more than two genders.
So I guess it's a learningjourney for all of us as well.
Yeah, that's fine.
I sort of also feel like a lot ofthis is changing as we go along and
as we're all learning and norms arechanging and cultural differences.
Katta (26:09):
There are articles that I wrote where I describe autism in ways that
make me feel ashamed about myself.
Yeah.
And now it is.
And like, this is fine.
I do, like, it's not fine.
It's not fine, um, in that regard,but like, I also look at that and I'm
like, Okay, if I wouldn't have theneed or kind of like the feeling that
(26:30):
I would have done better since then.
Like.
What would it mean if I wouldn'tbe ashamed of some of the things
that I did earlier because thatwould mean that I've never developed
either and I haven't learned.
Yeah, and so I'm looking forwardto be ashamed about this interview.
Geri (26:45):
Yeah , well, and I think that's a really important point for all of us.
You know, like, we're human andwe're on a learning journey together.
And how do we Make space for all sortsof people and ways and working out how to
practically do that how to talk about it
Katta (27:07):
But like in the words of Hanne De Jaegher, just
like letting them be as good.
Mmm.
Yeah It's also how they can do theirbest work I feel no Yeah, like just
experiencing that with some of my studentswho have made who like appreciate and,
just letting people be is, I think, agood way of allowing them to, um, to do
(27:32):
their best work and kind of engage with,with like the knowing part of it all.
Because like, the thing is, like, Italk about this activism and I talk
about all these things, but ultimatelyto me, that is also about kind of the.
fancier said, like epistemic plurality oflike the different ways of knowing because
like these different bodies have just likedifferent ways of engaging with the world.
And if we wouldn't have that space forthese different bodies, we would lose
(27:54):
out on so many perspectives and withinlike, you know, within more classical
terms, you could describe that astriangulation and like just like making
sure you have these different insightsand like these different ways of engaging.
And that ultimately makes for betterresearch and for better science.
And that is like my driver there as well.
Like, it's not just like, youknow, Oh, justice is great.
(28:14):
Justice is great, I guess.
But like, also, um, it's just,this is the job that we're doing.
Oops.
Geri (28:26):
So that knock at the door was for, your next meeting.
So in, in looking at wrapping up, um,I don't know, I feel like you have
so much to talk about and so much toshare and your openness about who
you are, your generosity and sharingthat, The fact that you are straight
(28:50):
and direct and that you challenge ushelps us all to be better and helps us
all to be in different ways as well.
And I think that there are probably10 million other things that
I will want to have asked you.
But what are the things that youwould like to say just in wrapping up?
Katta (29:11):
I don't know.
Like, I know, um, like, I feel, Isaid, like, I didn't go into this,
like, with a particular agendaof, like, sharing this or that.
I think it's, um, I think ifthere's anything, then it's kind
of like, you know, um, that, thatpeople shouldn't be afraid about.
(29:34):
Figuring out who they are, becauselike, that is actually a nice
thing to, to kind of like, do, no?
Mmm.
Like, also, um, Also like,recognizing when that might differ.
Uh, no, not even that.
Like, when that, I was justthinking, like, recognizing when that
differs, because that was one of themotivators, like, after my diagnosis.
(29:56):
So then, kind of like, two things.
But no.
Maybe also just be curious about who theseother people are, to an extent, right?
Like,
Geri (30:05):
Respectful curiosity.
Katta (30:06):
Respectful.
Like, um, because there are kind oflike questions that are invasive.
But, oh, I wanted to, previously Iwanted to add, like, there are a bunch
of people who make experiences that Ihave absolutely no idea how that is.
Um.
For example, like, I am hearing, so Idon't have any kind of insight into how
(30:27):
a deaf lived experience is, but also,I have never been pregnant, and I will
never be pregnant, so, like, I don'tknow how that is, and that seems like a
huge thing, I'm like, you know, kind oflike, you know, other people growing,
like, a life in their own body, thatmust be hard, like, seems, seems like
a big thing, um, and, like, And, andI'm bringing this example in particular
(30:48):
because that is so clearly somethingthat only specific people experience
and that we all have kind of a blaséunderstanding about it as a difference.
And that is kind of like how Iwish that we would engage with
like how people are different.
Being a bit curious, being supportive,but also like just like acknowledging
that that is the case and that's it.
Geri (31:06):
I don't know if we have time just for a quick comment.
One of the things that.
I feel is a tension is the thing ofthe work that you've often talked
about needing to do to educatepeople and, our response, people's
responsibility to be curious, respectfullycurious and educating themselves.
Katta (31:29):
Yeah, but I mean, if you have a culture at your lab.
Where you talk about your needs, right?
And where you accept those needs.
And where people feel free to kindof like say, I don't know, actually.
Like, um, I mean we have people here atthe institute, which is great, who have
like the sign at their door, who are like,if this door is closed then slack us if
you need anything but don't just barge in.
(31:51):
Because they need that space, but theyalso feel comfortable just saying that.
And I feel like it doesn'talways have to be asking.
Um, it can just be acceptingand that letting be.
And, um.
But if you have a culture where peoplecan have the freedom to reflect on what
they need and then actually ask for it, orkind of like, you know, set the parameters
(32:12):
so that they get that, that is great.
How to kind of like, you know,actually facilitate that and like
how that makes it work, you aremuch more the expert on that.
I'm just trying to emulate that.
Um, ultimately, yeah, just,um, yeah, showing an interest.
(32:34):
Like it doesn't, like, at least the thingis like if you do it strategically, so
to speak, I don't feel it makes sense andthen it, the whole purpose is gone again.
Mm.
Because I had that once, um, I hada colleague who kept on asking me
questions about things that I had thefeeling that I, they had an answer and
they just wanted me to get there myself.
(32:56):
And, and I totally getwhere that comes from.
And that is good advice that youask people to kind of like come to
their own solutions, but you alsoneed to be prepared that those
might be different from your own.
And they weren't necessarily always.
And so.
So, in that regard, like, that's kind oflike, you know, that's what I mean with
like, don't be too strategic about it.
It needs to come from a placewhere you kind of like, you
(33:18):
know, just want to do that.
Um, where you are then kind of like withthis example, when you want to know about
these other answers that are out there.
Geri (33:27):
So a lovely invitation to end on for people.
I don't know, because we're alldifferent in different ways.
Yeah.
And some, you know, there's somethat maybe fit more of a normatively
oriented model than bodies and waysof being, but whatever that might
mean, is there anything normative?
Katta (33:46):
And again, like they probably, probably not, right.
But like in terms of normative, butlike, that doesn't mean they had it easy.
That means sometimes they had like, um,Like privileges are difficult to kind of
understand, but because like we're notactively, or we're not necessarily taught
to actively reflect on them, or sometimesit's just like something we notice.
(34:09):
Like car drivers don't notice theentire infrastructure that is up for
them that we chose over public transit.
I mean, not here, but like, youknow, there, there's just access
provided in some ways and thenyou often don't think about it.
To come back to that previous thingand then you don't have to think
about it because it's just thereand then that friction of not being
afforded it is sometimes more palpable.
(34:32):
And, and, you know, a lot of people,um, might not experience specific
kinds of access frictions, but thatdoesn't mean that they experience none
or that, you know, um, their, theirstruggles aren't relevant as struggles.
So I would sometimes.
(34:52):
Like to, um, kind of like have,like I would like to see a
bit more solidarity sometimes.
So for example, with cis women, Isometimes have the feeling that they,
um, that they limit the term of theirwomanhood, but also like the term
of their solidarity in ways that areunhelpful to everyone and then they
(35:14):
just reproduce patterns of power thatare harmful ultimately to them as well.
Or, um.
Or that sometimes we kindof like try to override, um,
others experiences with our own.
Geri (35:29):
Lots of food for thought.
Thank you very much, Katta.
Glad we finally did getto sit down and chat.
Katta (35:35):
And now you know about the die.
Geri (35:36):
And now I know about the die.
And the six sided die,that I didn't know that.
Great.
Thank you.
And that's the end of myconversation with Katta.
So much food for thought there.
And what I find really amazing isI've worked with Katta for years and.
I guess we talked here in away that we don't often talk
(35:59):
day to day and it reminds me.
That it's worth taking time to sitdown and chat with colleagues and
getting to know them in a differentway beyond the day-to-day conversations
that we might normally have.
And I love Katta's call out to usjust to allow people space, to be.
(36:21):
And embracing the fact that thereare very different ways of being
and knowing, And accepting that.
And that doesn't just mean about thebigger labeled ways in the, in the neuro
divergent ways that, gender specific waysthat Katta has talked about Katta also was
very generous in pointing to ways that.
(36:41):
We're all different and havedifferent experiences that
we often don't think about.
So I leave that with usas for myself as well.
As a prompt.
Just to be more reflective about theways in which we're all different.
And being curious about that in arespectful, way, and in a way that's
(37:04):
about the curiosity, aiming to allowthe space for people to be themselves.
And as Katta said, wherethey can do their best work.
You can find the summarynotes, a transcript and related
links for this podcast on www.
changingacademiclife.
(37:25):
com.
You can also subscribe toChanging Academic Life on iTunes,
Spotify and Google Podcasts.
And you can followChangeAcadLife on Twitter.
And I'm really hoping that we canwiden the conversation about how
we can do academia differently.
And you can contribute to this by ratingthe podcast and also giving feedback.
(37:46):
And if something connected withyou, please consider sharing this
podcast with your colleagues.
Together, we can make change happen.
Welcome to Changing Academic Life.
I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this isa podcast series where academics and
others share their stories, provideideas, and provoke discussions about what
we can do individually and collectivelyto change academic life for the better.
(00:29):
Welcome to part two ofmy conversation with Dr.
Katta Spiel.
Katta is an assistantprofessor at TU Wien.
And, also a recent recipient of an ERCstarting grant, which in the European
context is a very prestigious grant.
And Katta's also a very good colleagueof mine for a number of years.
(00:51):
In part, one of myconversation with Katta.
They talk about their experiencesaround career uncertainty as
a postdoc before they got thiscurrent tenure track position.
And other issues like dealing withrejection of proposals coming out as
queer dealing with chronic health issues.
And we end up there talkingabout normative approaches
(01:13):
to technologies and bodies.
We go on here in part two whereKatta talks about their personal
journey with being diagnosedwith ADHD, being neurodivergent.
And what it's like negotiatingliving in a world that doesn't really
make space for different ways ofknowing and different ways of being
and for different types of bodies.
(01:35):
And also talking about, being anactivist and feeling that sense of
injustice around many of these issuesand trying to make that difference.
And ending with an encouragementfor us all to be curious about the
different ways of being and knowing.
So.
enjoy part two of this conversation.
(01:56):
It brings up this notion of what weassume is normative, approaches to
all sorts of things, whether it'sAcademia, gender filling in on forms,
goals for fitness trackers and so on.
Yeah.
And you also talk aboutbeing neurodivergent.
(02:18):
Yes.
And I, I'm sitting here watching Katta,do cross stitching as, as we're speaking.
Katta (02:26):
Yeah.
In this case, yeah, um, now, I've beendoing that recently again, um, because I
felt it was more portable than knitting.
Um, so, this is something thataccompanies me actually my entire,
like, school career and life.
When I was, uh, in primary school,in second grade, I was apparently so
hard to handle that they gave me booksto read and were like, this makes no
(02:49):
sense how you retain anything else.
But like, apparently it wentbetter when I read books in class.
Then I was like more attentive.
Um, and that like was The case forthe longest time that I was just
reading books in class and then
Geri (03:09):
while listening to the teacher Yeah, whatever concept
they were trying to explain.
Katta (03:13):
Yeah, and then
Geri (03:14):
so again the normative account of what attention is
Katta (03:17):
And then during my whole studies I was knitting Basically, once I dare to.
Um, and, uh, and I didn't even knowI was neurodivergent at that point.
I just did these things.
And now I just know what the reason forthat is, but I still do these things.
Maybe sometimes I allowthem more readily to me.
(03:38):
Because, like, I guess I would try and,and I, I would try and get through, like,
student meetings without doing that.
But now I just keep telling my students,like, I will pay more attention and be
more concise and more helpful for youif you let me do a thing next to it.
Yeah.
Like I will make more sense to you.
We will have a better relationshipand it will just be a better
(03:59):
interactive experience for you.
Mm-Hmm.
. And it's actually surprising meeven like how well that is accepted.
I mean, I also openly talk about it.
I think it's really important tokind of like for students to have
that, I don't wanna say role model,but like you are kind of put in
that position, so you have to.
Just like, whether you want or not, youjust have to kind of like, relate to that.
(04:23):
And, it does, there is a special flex inbeing like, I have a learning disability.
Geri (04:29):
So, how do you characterize your neurodivergence?
Like, learning disability?
Katta (04:33):
No, but that's how it's Characterized from the outside, right?
Mm-Hmm.
. And then I play with that.
Mm-Hmm.
. But I see it as a difference.
It's just a difference of processing,of engaging with like, I mean,
dopamine levels are, as far asI understood, dopamine levels
are, uh, lower, for example.
And there are like neurologicaldifferences, but I don't wanna like, you
know, value that one way or the other.
(04:56):
I do identify as disabled dueto like a bunch of things.
Um, and that being one of them.
But that's more in terms of likehow I encounter a world that expects
me to be different than how I am.
And that's also how I identifydisability ultimately.
So, yeah.
(05:17):
And with that, yeah.
I do, like, with the learningdisabled, that's just a flex, right?
Because like, that, thatkind of is supposed to show.
the irony behind defining it as such,because I'm like, in this classic
academic context, I seem to besuccessful enough to kind of like reach
(05:39):
a stage where this becomes ironic.
I mean, it's helpful with like, Iraise a child and like, um, when I
meet other parents and they keep onbeing like, Oh yeah, we have like,
we're discussing ADHD and whatever.
And, and they don't necessarilyknow that I have ADHD myself.
I can come out and be like, yeah, well,I have an ADHD too, and it's fine, and
I work at a university, and they'relike, you can see how they just relax,
(06:02):
like, immediately, of like, oh god, mychild can have academic success and all
that, and then I try to explain, youknow, some strategies that might help,
either from personal experience or fromliterature, and like, ultimately, just
working with the child, I guess, um,and how they can learn, and usually,
that, if you manage to have That as asource of dopamine, then like learning.
(06:30):
Then you call them.
Geri (06:32):
And you do?
Katta (06:34):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, studying again.
Geri (06:41):
Studying again.
Yeah.
Yeah..
So what, what are some of thestrategies that have worked for you?
You've already talked about doingsomething with your hands while
you're talking or listening, you know,what other ways have you been able
to work with, who you are and yourparticular ways of engaging in the
(07:01):
world to achieve this level of success
Katta (07:08):
If only I knew.
No, it's not quite as like Ido some things that I guess.
I mean, I know of a lot of strategiesof how you plan yourself because I
tried a lot and they have usually notstuck and I have to change them all
the time and how I structure my life.
But that means I know a lot of ways ofstructuring my life, which is useful to
students, I guess, because, like, I canmake a whole range of different offers.
(07:28):
I'm like, You could try this.
It doesn't work.
You could try this.
I mean, I I've been through a lot.
And it keeps on changing.
I've recently tried now with another thingand it's like, you know, that's fine.
I have accepted that about myself, thatnothing will work and, uh, only, uh, or
only if I do everything, so to speak.
Like, at some, at differentpoints, different things will work.
(07:50):
That is maybe the morepositive way to phrase that.
But also, um, yeah, it's, uh, I havetrouble like, you know, making choices
between roughly equally importantthings and that's really hard because
then, then deadlines are motivators,of course, like, cause the urgency that
(08:12):
something takes does factor in, butsometimes it has to be really, really
urgent to, to kind of, like, kick in.
Um, and you don't want to have that andyou don't want to sit around either.
But like sometimes there'sparalysis of like, what do I do now?
Because like emails, are they important?
Or is like this other thingimportant that will put me in a
better position in the long term?
Or like, how do I do this?
(08:33):
How do I do that?
Is this important now?
Actually, you should be continuouslydoing this so that, you know,
for example, I do actually tryand update my CV once a month.
So that I don't have to doit all at once because I know
that would even be worse then.
But you know, some months I justlike move it to the next month as
(08:55):
a task because like it doesn't feelthat much, like, that relevant.
But, um, still.
Sometimes it's just difficultand then I roll a die.
And so I have differentways of rolling a die.
I have physical die.
I have a die app on my watch.
I have a die app on my phone.
A serious, a serious rolling a die.
I have a Python script onmy computer that helps me.
(09:20):
Yeah, I'm not into gambling, butfor that I do have a lot of die.
And then I have like intricate systemsof like what specific numbers mean.
And like I still haven't figuredout, like cause I use six
sided die for the connoisseur.
But like sometimes Idid not know all this!
Yeah, I see.
Um, hiding it well.
(09:41):
No.
Um, but like I have a six sideddie and um, I uh, I still haven't
figured out well how to dealwith it when I have five options.
But I still feel that is the best die.
12 sided die might be better,but like for now, 6 sided die.
I've been, been holding on tothat for like at least 15 years.
(10:01):
So that is the most stablething that I've done.
Just like rolling die all the time.
Geri (10:05):
I mean, across all that you've talked about, would it be fair to say this
has been a journey of self acceptance?
Getting to know yourself,
Katta (10:21):
I mean, I got diagnosed late ish, like, um, I think I was
30 or so with ADHD, with ADHD.
Yeah.
Um, or a bit earlier, butlike around that time and, um.
And to an extent, yeah, selfacceptance, but like, it wasn't
(10:44):
even about self acceptance, butmore like accepting, accepting that
the world isn't made differently.
Like, cause I have, there's this questionwhen you get diagnosed or whether you
have an, an exaggerated need for justice.
First of all, I don't think you can havean exaggerated need for justice because
either you have a need for justice oryou don't, but like, it's not, that is,
(11:05):
that is kind of black and white, right?
Like, you know, what is justice thenlike more nuanced, but like, whether
you are for it or not, it's notnecessarily like, what is that even?
Like, anyway, um, but, uh, Besidesthat, completely weird question, um,
it was interesting, um, Because that,that, that is also like sometimes where
(11:30):
drive comes like of like, oh, thisisn't fair towards me and then like,
or towards someone else or whatever.
And I mean, that's a driverfor change and a lot of like
source for a bunch of activism.
But, um, but kind of like accepting thatI have to find a way of dealing with that.
Yeah.
Um, because like, it will beeven more unfair if I keep on
(11:51):
trying to change something that Icannot or like figuring out like.
Or trying to change my way of likeengaging with that to a point where,
you know, and I had some, some badstrategies apparently developed
over the years as well, like, um,which are just not necessarily super
helpful then for me or anyone else.
(12:15):
And we're, and so what the diagnosisbrought was kind of like going
from reacting to acting more.
Um, like I kept on saying.
back then, um, that to an extent, uh,medication allowed me to figure out how I
could be the person that I wanted to be.
And not just like, you know, tryingto survive in some kind of state.
(12:37):
Um, and that's kind ofa big thing, I guess.
Geri (12:42):
Cause you did talk about being quite reflective before in
terms of strategies and what'sgoing on and What's a priority now?
Very deliberately thinkingthrough these things in a way
that maybe many of us don't.
Katta (12:58):
Well, because like Because we stay reactive.
Oh no, I was like,because I have to, right?
Yeah.
Because it's not going to behappening implicitly either.
Geri (13:09):
I don't know whether this is the right way to ask the question,
but then What strengths has thisgiven you or highlighted for you
Katta (13:19):
Well, to an extent, the thing of like, you know, staying curious.
Like, I'm definitely notnecessarily what you would call a
specialist in like only one area.
I'm like more of a generalist.
I'm not super generalist,
So I think I'm more, I have theadvantage of drawing on more things,
(13:42):
like in keeping by necessity, um,so to speak, uh, more threads.
Uh, in parallel, and so I sometimes seeconnections that are not that available to
others, at least it seems, but also likeothers have access to connections that I
don't necessarily have and, and I'm veryappreciative of them sharing them as well.
(14:02):
Like, this is not, I'm nottrying to say like, you know,
um, that this is only a me thing.
It's, it's very much like,happening in other cases as well.
Uh, and, um, besides that, uh, I do see
I mean, ultimately, um, it's just likeI had to make this work for me, but
(14:26):
also like ultimately everybody has to,I mean, to some extent it's easier or
like it's, I guess it's easier or notas easy for others, but I actually don't
have any insight into that as well.
So I don't know necessarily how to talkabout this without being too presumptuous.
(14:47):
Um, Because, like, people have their ownstruggles and, um, and then I have a lot
of students who are just neurodivergentand so we do share the same kind of,
like, insights, but, um, but even withthose who at least do not identify as
neurodivergent, I feel like there is,like, you know, collaboration at some
(15:09):
point and, like, they, um, I mean, thatmight just be the group that has been
kind of, like, Amalgamizing around me.
But like, yeah, I don't know.
I don't want to be presumptuous andI feel like everybody has to work
around getting this thing to work.
And I, um, I maybe had to doit more explicitly than others.
(15:31):
Sometimes it feels certainly that way.
Or I might just like have nofilter and talk about it all
the time or what have you.
Geri (15:39):
So you don't operate in a vacuum, of course, you know,
you're part of this group.
I remember.
sitting at my table in my officewhere you said, Oh, by the way, I'm,
you know, I'm queer or whatever.
And, and also talking about when youwere diagnosed with ADHD, what did I do?
What did we do that was good andsupportive for you in that position?
(16:03):
And what could we have done?
What could I have donethat could have been?
better or more supportive.
Katta (16:10):
You took a whole lot of time until you learned my pronouns.
Geri (16:13):
Well, and I can't believe I misgendered you here.
I thought I was doing really well.
And I, , I remember saying to you,you know, like I've had 60 years of,
Conditioning, for a particular way ofspeaking and it's taking a while, but
Katta (16:28):
You can decide whether you leave that in, but there was this
moment where you were at some retreatin Canada that was led by a non
binary person and you came back andbasically tried to explain how being
non binary is to me and I was like, wow.
I felt a little bit like,you know, I prepared you for
this, let's say it that way.
That was a moment.
(16:51):
But like, see, that I can say thesethings, and like, I mean, you can decide
whether you leave it in or not, but um, Ican say these things, that is a, like, I
feel like you just like, you didn't haveto understand things to make them work.
And so, for example, What I reallyappreciated, I had this nervous breakdown
at one point before I was diagnosed,right, when I was sitting in your office
and was basically like, I can't do thisanymore, I am doing a PhD, I only have one
(17:16):
thing to do, I don't know what is wrongwith me, but like, I cannot, it's, it's
breaking me, quite literally, like itwas really bad, and I think I cried even,
like I had a full on mental breakdown.
And you were just like, okay,I have this other job for you.
Like you, I guess you didn't understandbecause like, I don't know, maybe you did.
Did you understand before?
I don't, I don't know.
I'm now questioning everything.
(17:37):
Yeah, exactly.
Like, right, like Ididn't know what was up.
Um, I was just like, OhGod, I need another job.
At least the second thing to do.
And, cause I also did that all the time.
Like, even during my studies, eitherI studied two things or I was in city
council as well or what have you.
And.
It was just, yeah, and you just gaveme another job and then I was like
happier and later I got diagnosed,but, um, but like these things of just
(18:00):
accepting people without having theneed to fully, like, understand that
and make sense of it for yourself andlike just being like, okay, this is
what a person needs and I don't needto, like, how can I work towards that?
I think that is great interms of an environment.
I just also needed to say something thatyou didn't do well, because otherwise
it would seem like I suck up to you.
(18:21):
And
Geri (18:23):
I demonstrated it very clearly earlier in the conversation.
For people who are in research groupswho may be leading groups or whatever,
do you have any particular advicefor them about how they might best
support people who are starting torecognize Whether it's neurodivergence
(18:46):
or, um, gender diversity issues.
Katta (18:51):
Well, just like, yeah, doing that.
Like, not trying to figure outwhat it means for them actually
beforehand, but like, rather beingin conversation and like, yeah.
Um, like, um, taking, taking themseriously when they say these things
and not being dismissive about it.
(19:12):
Um, yeah.
Geri (19:14):
Because they are life experiences, like, you've dealt with such a range of
things that you've just talked about, Idon't know, not, certainly not glibly,
but you've just talked about as matterof factly, rather, is probably a better
word, that I have no experience of.
(19:35):
And it sounds overwhelming to havegone through all that, and in awe of.
All that you've been all that you've doneand achieved and also more particularly,
I think the contributions of what you'vegiven back because in the middle of all
(19:55):
of the work that you've done to, to getto the awards and the achievements and the
grants that you've got the huge service.
You know, you talked aboutfeeling like something's not
fair, being a driver for change.
You've been really active inthat You do do a lot of peer
support and, also activism.
You talked about writing an article,like being upset about, the way gender
(20:16):
is represented in papers and writingan article about how we should talk
or co authoring an article abouthow we should talk about gender.
Katta (20:24):
That sounds almost prescriptive.
So I didn't mean itprescriptive, but like, yeah.
Like, the main message of that articleis that people should think about,
like, how, what they want to knowabout gender, why they want to know
it, and like, which groups, what isthe group conceptualization of gender.
And then we make an offer thatwill, like, you know, be useful for
(20:46):
a bunch of, like, default cases,but like, my main thing was always,
like, you need to think about this.
Because also the language keepson changing and, um, the kind of,
like, good practices around that.
Yeah.
Geri (21:00):
So it's more of an invitation to people to really be much
more thoughtful and reflective.
Katta (21:03):
Yeah, I guess.
Geri (21:05):
And you also mentioned that this was written with the
authors whose initial paper
Katta (21:09):
you Yeah, with some of them.
Yeah.
Yeah, um, Daniela Lottridge and OliverHaimson were the co authors on that one.
Um, and they are two ofthe original authors.
And it was just a paper where they kindof, it's a very good paper actually.
I mean they show how, um, how differentgroups conceptualize gender differently.
(21:32):
And so with the same way of asking gender,in that case a free text form field,
they got wildly different responsesum, between fantasy football players.
Which is a thing that mendo in the US like cis men.
It's apparently very male coded.
I have no idea how that works.
I only from that paper, Iknow that it even exists.
(21:53):
But, uh, and Tumblr userswho are notoriously queer.
Um, and so it was just like, you know, inthe one, in the first case, they got a lot
of like, but I'm a man, you can see that,like, why are you even asking me that way?
And like, why is there a freetext, or whatever, silly answers.
And then the other one, there was like,you know, nuance kind of like ways of
describing your gender and getting reallydown to like a very like descriptive
(22:16):
way and even thank yous and all that.
Um, or like, you know, just the gender.
Um, but you had that kind of like palpabledifference between kind of being thankful
and, and for the opportunity to selfexpress gender and the other one of like,
why do you make me think that is a bitmean as an interpretation on my end,
but like sometimes it feels like that.
(22:36):
Anyway, um, and that was really cool,like how they showed that you have
to have nuance about these groupsand, um, and who you ask with, uh,
and who you are asking about gender.
Um, and then.
They come to, they came to the conclusionthat, um, you should have like female,
(22:57):
male, or men, uh, woman, man, and other.
And I was like, why do youkeep literally othering us?
Like, that's not necessarily agreat choice of words, uh, I feel.
And like, it got me, it was a bitmad, cause like I, I like these
people and I was like, I expectedbetter from you, I thought you
had more understanding on that.
(23:18):
That was, I think, literallysomething I said and they do.
And um, and then I really like that,um, that revised, uh, recommendation.
First of all, it doesget a lot of attention.
That was not what I expected becauseit's just an interactions article
that doesn't go fully throughpeer review or anything, but, um.
(23:39):
But, uh, just that it also we have madethat part of like the article that you
have that continuous interaction, um,with things, which is maybe something
that I should say in terms of like,because I have the feeling that a
lot of people within our community.
So how do I phrase that?
So I've also been publiclyattacked or semi publicly for
(24:02):
being like, you know, for beingdiscriminatory towards white men.
Um, which, uh, which I'm sayingin this tone because that is
not how discrimination works.
But, um, Anyway, uh, I've been attackedfor that publicly and I also sometimes
encounter people who are like, Well,of everything that I heard of you, it's
(24:26):
surprising that you're such a nice person.
Which I'm like, firstof all, I'm not nice.
But also, like, I'm notsure what they heard.
Because like, it always comes up,I was like afraid of meeting you.
And I'm like, why though?
Because like, I'm not sure.
But it seems kind of like, thereseems to be an image around.
That, you know, where I'm justoverly critical about things.
And I do express critique prettybluntly and pretty harshly.
(24:49):
That's fair.
But it's always towards the thing, right?
Like, that doesn't mean thatI'm not willing to talk.
That doesn't even meanthat I mean that I'm right.
But I do feel these things very strongly.
And so I do kind of like put them outthere very strongly in the ways that I,
you know, kind of like engage with them.
(25:10):
But that doesn't mean that those arefixed or like set in stone either.
And like sometimes I feel itdoesn't come across that there is
more flexibility attached to that.
And I am not sure how to fixthat or whether it needs fixing.
But yeah, I think this articleparticularly is a good example of
(25:30):
what can happen when you, when youengage with critique that was brought
upon very bluntly, um, in a, in aproductive way that I think was then
beneficial to all of us ultimately.
Geri (25:42):
So I I previously hadn't I, hadn't ever thought about other as othering.
For me, it was good gestureabout non, like recognizing that
there are more than two genders.
So I guess it's a learningjourney for all of us as well.
Yeah, that's fine.
I sort of also feel like a lot ofthis is changing as we go along and
as we're all learning and norms arechanging and cultural differences.
Katta (26:09):
There are articles that I wrote where I describe autism in ways that
make me feel ashamed about myself.
Yeah.
And now it is.
And like, this is fine.
I do, like, it's not fine.
It's not fine, um, in that regard,but like, I also look at that and I'm
like, Okay, if I wouldn't have theneed or kind of like the feeling that
(26:30):
I would have done better since then.
Like.
What would it mean if I wouldn'tbe ashamed of some of the things
that I did earlier because thatwould mean that I've never developed
either and I haven't learned.
Yeah, and so I'm looking forwardto be ashamed about this interview.
Geri (26:45):
Yeah , well, and I think that's a really important point for all of us.
You know, like, we're human andwe're on a learning journey together.
And how do we Make space for all sortsof people and ways and working out how to
practically do that how to talk about it
Katta (27:07):
But like in the words of Hanne De Jaegher, just
like letting them be as good.
Mmm.
Yeah It's also how they can do theirbest work I feel no Yeah, like just
experiencing that with some of my studentswho have made who like appreciate and,
just letting people be is, I think, agood way of allowing them to, um, to do
(27:32):
their best work and kind of engage with,with like the knowing part of it all.
Because like, the thing is, like, Italk about this activism and I talk
about all these things, but ultimatelyto me, that is also about kind of the.
fancier said, like epistemic plurality oflike the different ways of knowing because
like these different bodies have just likedifferent ways of engaging with the world.
And if we wouldn't have that space forthese different bodies, we would lose
(27:54):
out on so many perspectives and withinlike, you know, within more classical
terms, you could describe that astriangulation and like just like making
sure you have these different insightsand like these different ways of engaging.
And that ultimately makes for betterresearch and for better science.
And that is like my driver there as well.
Like, it's not just like, youknow, Oh, justice is great.
(28:14):
Justice is great, I guess.
But like, also, um, it's just,this is the job that we're doing.
Oops.
Geri (28:26):
So that knock at the door was for, your next meeting.
So in, in looking at wrapping up, um,I don't know, I feel like you have
so much to talk about and so much toshare and your openness about who
you are, your generosity and sharingthat, The fact that you are straight
(28:50):
and direct and that you challenge ushelps us all to be better and helps us
all to be in different ways as well.
And I think that there are probably10 million other things that
I will want to have asked you.
But what are the things that youwould like to say just in wrapping up?
Katta (29:11):
I don't know.
Like, I know, um, like, I feel, Isaid, like, I didn't go into this,
like, with a particular agendaof, like, sharing this or that.
I think it's, um, I think ifthere's anything, then it's kind
of like, you know, um, that, thatpeople shouldn't be afraid about.
(29:34):
Figuring out who they are, becauselike, that is actually a nice
thing to, to kind of like, do, no?
Mmm.
Like, also, um, Also like,recognizing when that might differ.
Uh, no, not even that.
Like, when that, I was justthinking, like, recognizing when that
differs, because that was one of themotivators, like, after my diagnosis.
(29:56):
So then, kind of like, two things.
But no.
Maybe also just be curious about who theseother people are, to an extent, right?
Like,
Geri (30:05):
Respectful curiosity.
Katta (30:06):
Respectful.
Like, um, because there are kind oflike questions that are invasive.
But, oh, I wanted to, previously Iwanted to add, like, there are a bunch
of people who make experiences that Ihave absolutely no idea how that is.
Um.
For example, like, I am hearing, so Idon't have any kind of insight into how
(30:27):
a deaf lived experience is, but also,I have never been pregnant, and I will
never be pregnant, so, like, I don'tknow how that is, and that seems like a
huge thing, I'm like, you know, kind oflike, you know, other people growing,
like, a life in their own body, thatmust be hard, like, seems, seems like
a big thing, um, and, like, And, andI'm bringing this example in particular
(30:48):
because that is so clearly somethingthat only specific people experience
and that we all have kind of a blaséunderstanding about it as a difference.
And that is kind of like how Iwish that we would engage with
like how people are different.
Being a bit curious, being supportive,but also like just like acknowledging
that that is the case and that's it.
Geri (31:06):
I don't know if we have time just for a quick comment.
One of the things that.
I feel is a tension is the thing ofthe work that you've often talked
about needing to do to educatepeople and, our response, people's
responsibility to be curious, respectfullycurious and educating themselves.
Katta (31:29):
Yeah, but I mean, if you have a culture at your lab.
Where you talk about your needs, right?
And where you accept those needs.
And where people feel free to kindof like say, I don't know, actually.
Like, um, I mean we have people here atthe institute, which is great, who have
like the sign at their door, who are like,if this door is closed then slack us if
you need anything but don't just barge in.
(31:51):
Because they need that space, but theyalso feel comfortable just saying that.
And I feel like it doesn'talways have to be asking.
Um, it can just be acceptingand that letting be.
And, um.
But if you have a culture where peoplecan have the freedom to reflect on what
they need and then actually ask for it, orkind of like, you know, set the parameters
(32:12):
so that they get that, that is great.
How to kind of like, you know,actually facilitate that and like
how that makes it work, you aremuch more the expert on that.
I'm just trying to emulate that.
Um, ultimately, yeah, just,um, yeah, showing an interest.
(32:34):
Like it doesn't, like, at least the thingis like if you do it strategically, so
to speak, I don't feel it makes sense andthen it, the whole purpose is gone again.
Mm.
Because I had that once, um, I hada colleague who kept on asking me
questions about things that I had thefeeling that I, they had an answer and
they just wanted me to get there myself.
(32:56):
And, and I totally getwhere that comes from.
And that is good advice that youask people to kind of like come to
their own solutions, but you alsoneed to be prepared that those
might be different from your own.
And they weren't necessarily always.
And so.
So, in that regard, like, that's kind oflike, you know, that's what I mean with
like, don't be too strategic about it.
It needs to come from a placewhere you kind of like, you
(33:18):
know, just want to do that.
Um, where you are then kind of like withthis example, when you want to know about
these other answers that are out there.
Geri (33:27):
So a lovely invitation to end on for people.
I don't know, because we're alldifferent in different ways.
Yeah.
And some, you know, there's somethat maybe fit more of a normatively
oriented model than bodies and waysof being, but whatever that might
mean, is there anything normative?
Katta (33:46):
And again, like they probably, probably not, right.
But like in terms of normative, butlike, that doesn't mean they had it easy.
That means sometimes they had like, um,Like privileges are difficult to kind of
understand, but because like we're notactively, or we're not necessarily taught
to actively reflect on them, or sometimesit's just like something we notice.
(34:09):
Like car drivers don't notice theentire infrastructure that is up for
them that we chose over public transit.
I mean, not here, but like, youknow, there, there's just access
provided in some ways and thenyou often don't think about it.
To come back to that previous thingand then you don't have to think
about it because it's just thereand then that friction of not being
afforded it is sometimes more palpable.
(34:32):
And, and, you know, a lot of people,um, might not experience specific
kinds of access frictions, but thatdoesn't mean that they experience none
or that, you know, um, their, theirstruggles aren't relevant as struggles.
So I would sometimes.
(34:52):
Like to, um, kind of like have,like I would like to see a
bit more solidarity sometimes.
So for example, with cis women, Isometimes have the feeling that they,
um, that they limit the term of theirwomanhood, but also like the term
of their solidarity in ways that areunhelpful to everyone and then they
(35:14):
just reproduce patterns of power thatare harmful ultimately to them as well.
Or, um.
Or that sometimes we kindof like try to override, um,
others experiences with our own.
Geri (35:29):
Lots of food for thought.
Thank you very much, Katta.
Glad we finally did getto sit down and chat.
Katta (35:35):
And now you know about the die.
Geri (35:36):
And now I know about the die.
And the six sided die,that I didn't know that.
Great.
Thank you.
And that's the end of myconversation with Katta.
So much food for thought there.
And what I find really amazing isI've worked with Katta for years and.
I guess we talked here in away that we don't often talk
(35:59):
day to day and it reminds me.
That it's worth taking time to sitdown and chat with colleagues and
getting to know them in a differentway beyond the day-to-day conversations
that we might normally have.
And I love Katta's call out to usjust to allow people space, to be.
(36:21):
And embracing the fact that thereare very different ways of being
and knowing, And accepting that.
And that doesn't just mean about thebigger labeled ways in the, in the neuro
divergent ways that, gender specific waysthat Katta has talked about Katta also was
very generous in pointing to ways that.
(36:41):
We're all different and havedifferent experiences that
we often don't think about.
So I leave that with usas for myself as well.
As a prompt.
Just to be more reflective about theways in which we're all different.
And being curious about that in arespectful, way, and in a way that's
(37:04):
about the curiosity, aiming to allowthe space for people to be themselves.
And as Katta said, wherethey can do their best work.
You can find the summarynotes, a transcript and related
links for this podcast on www.
changingacademiclife.
(37:25):
com.
You can also subscribe toChanging Academic Life on iTunes,
Spotify and Google Podcasts.
And you can followChangeAcadLife on Twitter.
And I'm really hoping that we canwiden the conversation about how
we can do academia differently.
And you can contribute to this by ratingthe podcast and also giving feedback.
(37:46):
And if something connected withyou, please consider sharing this
podcast with your colleagues.
Together, we can make change happen.
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