September 18, 2024 • 46 mins
Update 22 Sept 2024: It is with deep sadness that I share Liam passed away this morning. May we honour his memory and his generosity in sharing his reflections by always reminding ourselves about what and who is really important.
Liam Bannon is a Professor Emeritus and founder and director of the Interaction Design Centre at the University of Limerick in Ireland. In April 2024 I released a conversation with Liam Bannon recorded in 2017 about his career, ending with a hint about some health issues.
This is a follow up conversation with Liam from Sept 2024 where he shares his profound reflections on life, health, and academia, amid dealing with terminal cancer. Recorded from his hospital bed, Liam shares his journey since his 2015 stage-four lung cancer diagnosis and subsequent health challenges, including a brain tumour. Emphasising the importance of appreciating life, paying attention to how and with whom we spend it, and maintaining meaningful relationships, Liam offers invaluable insights on managing career pressures, the costs of neglecting personal connections, and the significance of staying true to one's values. Despite audio quality issues, this deeply personal and reflective conversation is a poignant reminder to reassess our priorities and strive for a life balanced between professional aspirations and personal well-being, and prioritising relationships.
Here is a pdf file of the transcript. There is also a transcript embedded with the audio that you can follow along with.
Overview:
00:29 Episode introduction
07:25 Liam’s health journey
12:11 Reflections on professional connections & relationships
21:22 Being reflective about
25:37 Contributions & tradeoffs
31:04 Asking what do you want to do with your life
33:48 Prioritising people & relationships
38:50 Taking stock, taking holidays, being true to yourself
44:32 Wrapping up
46:16 End
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Geri (00:05):
Welcome to Changing Academic Life.
I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick and this isa podcast series where academics and
others share their stories, provideideas and provoke discussions about what
we can do individually and collectivelyto change academic life for the better.
Liam (00:29):
it can actually give you an appreciation of life, and of the fact
that you don't know how much life youhave, but you should pay attention to how
you spend it, and who you spend it with.
Geri (00:48):
And that's Liam Bannon.
Who's just talking about.
"You don't know how much lifeyou have, but you should pay
attention to how you spend it.
And who you spend it with?"
I'm really happy to finallybe able to bring part two of a
conversation with Liam Bannon.
Hopefully you will have already listenedto part one of our conversation that
(01:12):
was released in April, 2024, but itwas actually a conversation from 2017.
And.
And at the end of that conversation, Liamdid allude to the fact that there was
some health issues that he had going on.
So, what he's been reflecting onin this episode is the implications
(01:34):
of what he's been going through.
And he wanted this to befrom the heart as well.
He explains to us at the beginningthat in 2015, he had a very serious
cancer diagnosis for lung cancer.
That was supposed to have beenstage four and terminal then.
(01:56):
And he's also had some subsequent issueswith a brain tumor along with the lung
cancer . And yet here he is now in 2024.
However, we are recording thisinterview from his hospital
bed and he's on oxygen therapy.
Because he's had some subsequent issuesarise with both the lung and the brain.
(02:22):
Part of being in hospital, for whateverreason, we weren't able to connect
via Zoom or some other better qualityplatform for recording the audio.
And as a compromise, we'vebasically just recorded open
audio from a what's app call.
And.
(02:43):
So I do apologize in advance thatsome parts of the audio will be quite
difficult to hear or understand.
You will have heard some of thisin the excerpt at the beginning.
And Liam also wanted to make sure thatI explained that his voice quality
has been affected by the lung cancer.
(03:04):
So it's a lot more strangulatedand hoarse than normally.
So this in combination with the moreopen audio quality isn't the best
quality, but the content is really gold.
Because of that where relevant or Ithink with where there is a particularly
important things that Liam saying,I've tried to repeat or contextualize
(03:27):
what he's said so it makes it easier tolisten to, and there were other parts
that just weren't listenable to at all.
So I've just summarized them briefly.
And this is one episode, where youmay find it particularly useful to
follow the transcript along withthe audio that you can access, by
your podcast app or on the web page.
(03:51):
Liam also sent me a textafter the call about something
that he forgot to comment on.
And I can read thatdirectly now from his text.
"One thing I did not comment on remy illness was how my brain tumor
began to affect all my faculties,perceptual, cognitive affective.
(04:14):
In a very serious way in mid 2001.
And I was very lucky to have a craniotomy,to completely remove the tumor in
Jan 2022, restoring all my facultiessince January, 2022, spending 2022
and 2023 to rehabilitate physically.
(04:36):
Recovering my mental facultieswas an amazing experience."
End of quote.
. And that's a direct read from the textsthat he sent and what I think you hear
there is the appreciation for life thathe now has based on this experience with
(04:57):
his health, that even though he's talkingabout really serious craniotomy brain
tumor rehab, the appreciation for havinga couple of good years, with the rehab
and getting back some of those faculties.
And that's some of the mainthemes of what we talk about here.
A lot of it is about the perspectivethat can be really important to take,
(05:23):
a stepping back from the day-to-dayminutiae and challenges and problems, and
really stepping back and thinking about.
What is it that's important.
And.
The trade offs that we might make for ourcareer when we focus on the day-to-day
or we don't take that time to step backand that the costs of that and for
(05:48):
Liam, he talks about those costs interms of some of the relationship costs.
And particularly, I encourage youto listen through to the end because
he just has some really quite deepand compelling things to say about
about that stopping, reflecting,thinking about what's important.
(06:10):
Uh, putting a focus on therelationships and the people.
And just really being true to yourself.
So I really want to thank Liam and forbeing prepared to have this conversation
for his honesty and vulnerability in it.
And I hope that.
(06:31):
It's a salient reminder to all ofus that we do have a limited time
on this earth and it's, I knowit's something, not something that
we all often want to think about.
But how we can perhaps learnfrom people who've gone through
this in a really hard way.
To make better decisions now while we can.
(06:54):
To live a life that is meaningful,that is about people and
connections that are so important.
So I thank you for your patiencein advance for listening to this
and persisting despite the audio.
As I said, I hope that my littleinterjections might help clarify
some parts where it's not so clearand do stick with it to the end,
(07:16):
because it's really worthwhile.
Thank you, Liam.
It's really great that we've beenfinally able to connect and we've
not got the ideal technical setup.
So we'll just see how we go here.
When we finished the last conversationthat we had that I released, you
(07:41):
alluded to some different healthissues that had been going on for you.
Do you want to just elaborate a littlebit and give some context for that?
Liam (07:53):
Yes, well, just to keep it fairly brief, because I could
spend a couple of hours on it.
Um, but anyway, the basic thing is thatwhen I talked , it was back in 2017.
I'd already been involved, um, inquite a major set of issues connected
(08:16):
with my health, because, um, in 2015.
Um, I was actually working in, in Brazil.
I was a visiting professorat the university there, the
Federal University in Rio.
And I was actually just about to go thereagain, and I, um, did a health check,
(08:40):
and was kept in for observation, anda few days later, from zero, and like,
thinking I was fine, I was told therewas some issues, and then I was told I
had cancer, and then I was told, Quitesoon after that, in a day or two, that
actually was quite serious, and then it'sstage three, and the next thing I was
(09:02):
told, it's actually, no, it's stage four
I was actually, um, told it was terminal.
That was the actual word, um, and so itwas kind of, uh, quite jarring in terms of
there I was going along, or moving along.
And suddenly this happened.
(09:23):
So it's, it's suddenly, uh, yeah,and then I was told initially at
that time, but I actually, I was toldbasically, I wasn't given a specific
.time periods in like, but it was, I mean, it was get your things in
order, um, there's not much we cando, yeah, I mean, that's certainly,
that's, uh, a change, or a stop to yourplans, or whatever you might be doing.
(09:51):
Yeah, I mean , I had to cancelgoing back to Rio at that stage.
I didn't, I haven't been back there since.
So from October 2015 untilnow, that is, uh, September.
in 2024.
(10:11):
I've actually beendealing with the cancer.
Now that doesn't mean that I'm inthe hospital every day, but it's
meant that I've been, I've had this.
I've had this, uh, swordof Damocles over me.
So you're never quite sure, um, howyou're going to feel or what's happening.
(10:36):
So in between this time, in thoseseveral years, I've actually had
periods where I've been reasonablyalmost healthy, I would say.
But then there are other times when I getquite sick and I also So I was technically
diagnosed with, uh, uh, lung cancer,and, um, that's the major primary cancer.
(11:04):
But then, sometime later, Iwas, um, given that it was stage
4 and potentially had spread.
They found that I had a, uh, tumor inmy brain, so that became another issue.
And that tumor actually, um, they thendid radiation on that, and and after
(11:31):
doing the radiation, I had after effectsfrom that, which, um, meant I was getting
seizures, and intermittent seizures
.But they were recurrent, and that meant it affected my ability to drive.
And I live in a house, but noton a public transport route.
(11:54):
And I'm living alone,since my cancer diagnosis.
So, yes.
So secondly, Everyday lifebecomes quite different.
Geri (12:07):
Yeah, I cannot imagine.
Liam (12:12):
So I think in terms of my work, well, I just connected
with, um, my academic work.
I had already been, I had moved out ofmy, which taken retire early retirement
from my, my Limerick position..
And, uh, I was doing, um,various visiting placements.
(12:38):
I was taking visiting positions.
Um, In different parts of the world.
And, uh, well, so I, in that sense,it's, I wasn't leaving my regular job.
Yeah.
I used to have.
So, that in one sense meant, well, it wasgood and bad, I guess, because, it was
(13:02):
bad in that you didn't have your, yourown, or your, local network, or the people
you've been with, or your work colleaguesreally, because I wasn't in a workplace.
And the people I've been visitingin Brazil are not around.
I've seen maybe one ofthem, since that time.
(13:24):
It's uh, yeah, so actually that'sone of the difficulties and when
you're working or like I've been alsoconnected in internationally a lot
and I got a lot of um, satisfactionout of my international collaboration.
(13:44):
And that's both the academic work.
Um, but also the social, in thesense that you're meeting people
at conferences and workshops, etc.
And these are people that I'vebeen meeting, say, in some of
the CSCW cases since around 88,the very early days of CSCW.
(14:11):
Mm, yeah.
So they have been my workcolleagues for many years.
20 years or something more and, uh,yeah, so suddenly not being able to
give talks at conferences or meetpeople has actually been, uh, I would
(14:33):
say quite a difficult experience.
I mean, cause I've actually, youknow, inevitably people are busy and
they have their own private livesand family life and so they're not.
In contact or they don't see me.
I'm not physically at the meetingswhere the people are meeting also.
(14:59):
So this, yes, it makes mereflect a bit more on just the,
ephemerality of, of relations.
Even though I, like I thought I had avery strong, HCI and PDA, Participative
Design and CSCW and Interaction Design.
(15:23):
They're actually somewhatdistinct communities.
Especially in Europe where I'vebeen working in space mainly.
Um, but it was quite, you know,I knew people in those for over
20 years, you know, or more.
Yeah, yeah.
And then, suddenly, just kind of prettymuch disappeared because I wasn't there.
(15:50):
. Geri: They are interesting reflections about the local
global tradeoffs that we make.
'cause it is one of the thingsthat we, many of us love about the
academic life is the mobility thatwe have to work in different places
and travel in to different places.
And you talked about that lasttime where you worked and traveled
(16:13):
an enormous amount and theinternational networks that we have.
But what you're pointing to is the qualityof the relationships is, um, put into
sharp contrast, I guess, in that whenyou get to the situation like you've
been dealing with in these last years.
Yes, yes.
I mean, I was saying about, how much I'velearned from all the different places
(16:39):
I've been um, the people I've met, andthen say, from, say, 2000 or so, or the
late 90s on, I did a lot of mentoring,um, work and talks in different places,
and so was the, the, um, possibility ofbeing able to talk with other people,
(17:02):
being able to give your perspective.
In my case, a kind of more human centeredone, and that encouraged people to look
at Things a little bit differently maybethan the mainstream, but I appreciate
it so, and so the opportunity to beable to do that in different places was
(17:24):
something that I, I enjoyed very much.
It's always very much not justthe everyday or like the academic
interactions when you're withpeople in different places, but,
uh, it's just, yeah, the silencing.
(17:45):
. I'm not trying to make it sound
like, uh, or I'm notaccusing anybody of anything.
It's not.
People are, you know, involved in,you know, they have their family.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Most people do and they havechildren and there's a lot of.
(18:06):
It's very, very difficult, Ithink, you know, for anybody.
I don't actually, I can remember,I don't say it in my 30s or even
early 40s, thinking, I don't knowhow young academics with families,
you know, and partners and children,babies, how the hell do they do it?
How people are able tojuggle all of these things.
(18:30):
And maybe in a sense, the answer isyou have to, you know, be careful.
And I don't know how, giventhe career, um, difficulties in
developing your careerin the world these days.
I mean, in academia especially, I reallythink, I mean, I feel for young academics
(18:54):
because I think it's, uh, the pressuresthey're under are quite, quite enormous.
I honestly think it's, um, you know, I'vetalked to some people about this, younger
people, um, where they're reflecting onWhat can they do or can they, is this
(19:16):
this academic role the right one forthem because of some of these pressures?
I'm thinking if they did some other,I'm not saying necessarily, I mean
in many different parts, or kinds ofworkplace, there are different pressures
and I'm not saying there's no pressuresin other areas of the workplace.
There are, but in somecases they can be different.
(19:42):
Yeah, I think sometimes the pressureyou have as an academic is that, uh,
You just put on yourself in a way.
So in some sense it's not necessarilythe manager who is forcing
you to stay on on the weekend.
It's actually you are taking onanother reviewing responsibility yet
(20:06):
another, uh, journal editorship, yes.
Et cetera, you know?
Yes.
And, and then you've got friends whoare asking you to review their papers
and you don't want to let them down.
And, and so it means, I mean, I certainly,and again, I'm not trying to play what
(20:27):
we say in Irish, in the Irish language'An Béal Bocht', which means the
poor mouth and like sounding poor me.
. But I mean, there is a sense when I look.
back and think when I came back toLimerick, which at the time there was
a holiday over 20 years when, and thatdoesn't mean, I'm not saying that,
(20:51):
nobody said I couldn't take a holiday.
You had students, you had projects,you had, um, uh, postdocs, visitors,
you'd, like, so you just end uptaking on Way more in a sense.
If, if you actually did have a, amanager in the classical sense, I
(21:14):
think they would be able to, in somecases, say, you're taking on too much.
Yes.
You know, cut down a bit.
Geri (21:22):
So you're pointing to the fact that we have to be a lot more
personally responsible and reflectiveof the choices that we're making.
Liam (21:32):
Yes, exactly.
Geri (21:33):
But how do we get, how do we get that perspective?
Liam (21:38):
Well, it's really difficult when you're in the middle of, it's a
bit like, you know, if you're in themiddle of a rushing crowd and you're
trying to get your feet to the floor.
You want to stay.
I need to stop.
It's very difficult.
Because everything is moving around you.
And also some of the people thatyou might want to talk to or to find
(22:02):
as people that might give you somestability or a way of thinking about
or perspective on the situation.
It's not always easy to findthose people, first of all.
Geri (22:17):
Because we're all probably caught up in the same mad rush.
Yeah.
Liam (22:23):
Yeah.
Geri (22:24):
Yeah.
Liam (22:24):
So it's quite, it's quite difficult.
And for many people too, if they're inthat, it makes it difficult for them
to, to actually say to another person,well, Perhaps this isn't for you.
So on the one hand, you have the problemthat some cases, people who are academics,
(22:46):
given that they do have a commitmentto it, it's hard for them to sometimes
allow some people to go away or, youknow, to lose them because you feel that
they are intellects that might flourish.
Yeah.
But on the other hand, I don't know, Imean, I guess myself, I, I never thought
(23:10):
of it in a sense, I never thought ofmyself as a career academic, you know.
But the part of me that had a free spirit.
I was
Geri (23:22):
just going to say, you're always, you know, the opposite in
the sense of doing your own thing andnot playing the game so classically.
Liam (23:34):
Yeah, but you get caught up and in the end you, I mean, yes, it's quite
difficult, um, and so there was aperiod then for about 20 years when I,
I was inside in a way, and it was onlythen when I, I took early retirement
that, that was the deliberate, Itwasn't really retirement in a sense.
(23:57):
I mean, I stopped myposition because I was tired.
I just, um, I wanted to change.
I was getting more and moreinto a managerial, directorial
role and I, that wasn't reallywhat I thought I wanted to do.
Uh, I want it to be more,
I can remember speaking,looking at some of my group.
(24:19):
who were having kind of a lunch outsidemy office, and I was realizing, you
know, I'm getting Separated from my group.
I'm not actually doing work with them,you know Like just leading them in a way.
I mean, you're mentoringsome of those people.
Yes.
(24:39):
But in some cases, I wasn'tactually doing as much of that.
And I was actually traveling anddoing other international commitments.
And I started to feel thisis getting a bit strange.
The relation between, um, My group,ostensibly, in one place, and
(25:02):
the work I was doing so it justmade me reflect and move away.
I decided then I decided I wouldtake early retirement at fifty five.
Which is quite young, but I wantedjust to be able to take on different
challenges and just, or pick up ondifferent things and not feel pushed
(25:27):
or entrained into a particular way.
So I cut back on, on the international,you know, editorial things and challenges.
Geri (25:37):
So, what are the things that when you look back that you remember as
really important for you and what you'rereally proud of, because what you've
also pointed to is there have beentrade offs in all of these decisions,
but I'm just curious about, you know,given all the trade offs, what are
the things you'd celebrate about it?
Liam (25:56):
It's interesting, I can remember even back when I was a
post doc and I wanted to write, tomake a contribution at some level,
I wasn't necessarily looking to be abig professor at some big university
(26:17):
or anything, that wasn't my goal.
But I wanted to, I felt I wanted to tryand write or have something published that
some people who I was kind of had someacademic, , respect for felt was okay.
(26:39):
So that was the idea.
Like if I'd made that, I would be okay.
I didn't really care about gettinga hundred plus publications.
Geri (26:55):
So even though you haven't chased the numbers or the publications, I
can say from being a member of thosecommunities that your work has been
incredibly impactful because It'sbrought new perspectives, it's created
new links, and I think looking atthe citations for some of your top
cited papers , lots of other peoplehave found them impactful as well.
(27:19):
And Liam goes on to describe here someof the interactions that he had with
lots of people going back to the 1980sand his time in the U S and also
talking about coming back to Europeand working with some of the European
networks and the audio was just alittle bit too hard to understand.
So I've, given you the summaryhere and we'll pick up again.
Liam (27:43):
But there was a lot of energy and intellectual energy.
And also it so happened that therewere a lot of, uh, people who got on
really well with each other personally.
Geri (27:58):
So that, that points back to all of those international networks and
professional relationships that youhad that you also reflected on in the
beginning about there's some of thetrade offs that you make because they're
more, distributed and tied to the work.
I'm, I'm also just curious what would be.
(28:18):
How would you talk to your youngerself now based on the reflections you
have from this perspective and whatyou've been going through in terms
of choices, decisions, trade offs?
Liam (28:32):
I don't know.
Sometimes I think,
Geri (28:35):
And again, the audio just really wasn't very clear at all, but Liam was
talking about how he actually reallywanted to go traveling and really enjoyed
his post-doc and not being over burdenedwith teaching duty and meeting, lots
of interesting people in computing andcognitive science and communication and
(28:56):
sociology and anthropology, and it justbeing a wonderful few years for him.
And we pick up with Liam again,as he then goes to the question
of, well, what about settling?
Liam (29:14):
So, you can do that.
The question then becomes,well, what about settling?
And I mean, I have to, uh,that's an issue, I guess.
Because there's some people I know, whenI went to Canada initially, I have Irish
friends who are doing their PhDs, but theywere very clear either they were going
(29:35):
to go back to Ireland, or they weren't,they were going to go stay in Canada.
That was, you know, they're going tomake a life, that's what they decided,
and then they'd ask me, what am I doing,and well I don't know really, maybe
I'll go down to California, maybe I'll,
Geri (29:54):
And Liam goes on to talk about that he was thinking about where to go next or
where not to go and ended up making thedecision to come back to Europe and not
specifically to Ireland, but then it notalways being easy to get your wishes, to
match up to the opportunities that wereavailable or the dream of what you'd like.
Liam (30:18):
It ended up, there were some interesting job opportunities in
Scandinavia, and the work they weredoing was interesting, so I, on that
side, I was interested to go there,but it wasn't necessarily the, uh, the
place that I was expecting to go to.
It's kind of ironic that I'm, youknow, when I look back on it now.
(30:43):
My time there between 1988 and 93,so it was, uh, five, six years.
But I made a lot of contact and goodfriends there who I know quite well.
And that's still, in a sense, it'salmost my home community in some way.
Even after 20 years away.
Geri (31:05):
Liam then picks up on the question of what advice to give and,
and that it made him think about a fewpeople that he's talked with privately
when they'd been questioning theirown motivations and career choices.
And these are people who are20, 30 years younger than him.
And his own reflection was that hedidn't rethink this often enough.
Liam (31:31):
This time I was in California, about going back, I had this idea that I would
like to get back to Europe and that wasan override goal, but I'm just thinking
in terms of some of these other peopleI've talked with, um, it was cases where
(31:52):
they were questioning, they had other, um,interests at times, but they weren't sure
the academic path was the one for them.
Given the pressures thereare on the younger academics
or with families, whatever.
I mean, I certainly, um, thoughtthat I was cautioning them against
(32:19):
it completely, but I certainly wassaying, you know, you really Need to
think about this and then, you know,go with what you feel inside yourself.
Yeah.
Are you really feeling this isreally motivating me or not?
Geri (32:39):
So just to repeat what Liam said there, because I
think it was so important.
Liam proposed that you really need tothink about this and you need to go
with what you feel inside yourself.
Are you really feeling likethis is motivating me or not?
And he goes on to talk about.
(32:59):
People, even in their thirtiesnow starting to feel this kind of
overburden and feeling the pressures.
And he talked about the challengesof teaching these days and the.
Uh, increasing demands from studentsthat are being placed on academics.
And what he also sees as some of the lackof respect and some of the breakdown of
(33:20):
traditional values and talking about it,becoming a bit of a rat race in some ways.
And then he poses thequestion . What's the goal.
What do you want to do with your life?
Liam (33:35):
You know, what's, what's the goal, you know.
What do you want to do with your life?
Um, what, what can yousee at the end of it?
It's, uh.
Geri (33:48):
And for you now, like, how do you reflect on what's
important in your life now?
Liam (33:57):
Well,
that's a difficult one, I must say.
Um,
I have quite a few.
I sometimes feel a bit like, uh, acartoon road runner, and he's going
(34:18):
along over the cliff, you know, I mean,
well, we're all terminalin one sense, you know?
We all, we, we, we will die.
But, uh, there's, forsome of us it may be, um.
to happen sooner.
And then, well, actually,it's sort of amazing that I'm
(34:39):
still, um, given my prognosis
Geri (34:44):
yes, stage four in 2015, and here we are September 2024.
That's really amazing.
Liam (34:52):
Well, there is, um, yeah, I have, I do have regrets because I, In
some cases, I didn't, yes, I didn'tprioritize maybe my relations and
my personal relations with peopleas much as I should have at times.
(35:15):
I let things move along.
Geri (35:19):
I think it's interesting that Liam goes on now to talk about
some of the issues around thoserelationships with people and not
perhaps giving them the priority thathe now reflects on as being important.
Liam (35:38):
I can remember when I was traveling and I took this time out this year.
In 1985,
86, in Asia, and I rememberthe people talking to me then.
I was actually, wasn't thatyoung, I mean, well, 31 or 2.
But I can remember asking me, you know,where I was from, and how old I was, and
(36:02):
then they'd say, Are you married yet?
And I'd be thinking, wow.
No, I don't, no, notyet, not yet, you know.
And have you children?
No, not yet.
No, I was going to takecare of you in your old age.
No, I'm kind of, we have, we havethings for that in the West, you know,
(36:24):
but actually, the reality is At theend of the day, sometimes, family
has become quite, quite important.
And if you haven't been around them,then no, you're not, they're not there.
Because you've physically movedand lost those connections.
In some cases, it's not soeasy to reconnect, you know.
(36:52):
So, yes, I've, I've had to handle orcome to terms with some of those lack
of choices, you know, in some caseswhere I, I didn't, well, I did some
decisions, but I didn't make all ofthem, you know, or I let things slide
a bit, or wasn't pushed on things.
(37:14):
And, and those have, um, I guessmaybe part of me was feeling out
there was this continuing explorersort of role, you think of the
Arctic Explorers in the early 1900s.
You know, like some of the people,even in their 60s, they're still out.
(37:39):
You know, whether it's on ships oron, on airplanes up in the Arctic.
And sometimes they end up dying upthere, like it's, you know, they crack.
But in a way, it's, it's almostlike that's the fitting end
for the, for the explorer.
But, uh, have a.
I had a sense that I would be In someways, yeah, traveling, mentoring, being
(38:06):
in different communities, hopefullyin that kind of, for me, being able
to hopefully contribute something, um,as I was older in different settings,
different communities, but actuallybecause of my mobility problems, I'm
(38:27):
actually not been able to travel even.
Yeah.
That is something I really miss.
I miss being able to see people,being able to see places.
Yeah.
And the idea, you know, to be ableto just hike a mountain or swim.
(38:49):
So I miss it.
Geri (38:52):
And Liam will continue on now and remind us that it's important that every
now and then we stop and take stock.
And also he reminds usto take our holidays.
So I let Liam pick that up.
Liam (39:08):
So I think that's another thing every so often that
they take stock, you know.
Whether you have it, it's a holiday periodor And take your holidays, by the way.
Yes.
If you're not Get out of where you are.
I mean, I took a few days at theend of the conference or whatever.
I didn't really get out of the setting.
(39:29):
And I .... It's gonna allow yourselfto think of where you're at, who
you're with at the time, what'simportant in your life, you know?
Yeah.
It's one of the parts of it, it'sironic, but people say there's a
lot about getting a serious cancer,which is very often it can be.
(39:55):
In some ways, I mean, it's, you know,it's ridiculous in one sense, but it
can actually give you an appreciationof life, and of the fact that you
don't know how much life you have, butyou should pay attention to how you
spend it, and who you spend it with.
Geri (40:18):
And if I can just repeat that, because I know it was a bit hard
to hear, but I think so important.
So he was talking about taking holidaysand allowing yourself time to think
about where you're at who you're with atthe time what's important in your life.
And reflecting on the fact thatwhen you get a serious cancer
(40:41):
diagnosis, Uh, it can actually giveyou a real appreciation of life.
And the fact that you don't knowhow much life you will have.
But you should pay attentionto how you spend it.
And who you spend it with
Liam (41:04):
and not to just suddenly be grumbling about the day to
day things that are going on.
But, um, really prioritize and rememberand remind yourself every so often,
about, the fact that you're If you arein good health, the fact that you have
(41:24):
a partner who you care about and caresabout you, hopefully, and potentially
have, have, um, family or children orwhatever that is there in your life,
those are so, so important relative.
To, like, at the end of the day, whatis going to be important in terms
(41:49):
of your, your legacy, and you know,I mean, I, it's nice to think that,
To people who remember something that Iwrote or, or maybe even just words, like I
said when we talked, um, that potentiallyshifted how they thought about the
(42:11):
field, you know, I'm not trying to expecteverybody on everything I say to come
from to change the world or anything.
Geri (42:19):
Again, just to repeat what Liam said for emphasis and to help for clarity.
He talked about, Not to begrumbling about the day-to-day
things that are going on.
But to really prioritize and remember,and remind yourself every so often.
About the fact that if you're ingood health and the fact that you
(42:41):
have a partner who cares about youand you care about, and potentially
maybe family or children, whateverthere is in your life, these are
the things that are so important.
Relative to other thingsthat, may be about.
People rememberingsomething that you wrote.
(43:05):
So he then goes on in the next bitthat you'll hear and talks about the
importance of then just being true toyourself, to your own values and living
in the way that you want to live.
And treating other people like theway you would like to be treated.
And at the end of the day, you can'tgo far wrong and people will respect
(43:28):
you at a personal level in terms ofhow you live your life and how you
interact with others and treat others.
So you'll hear Liam saythis in his own words.
Liam (43:40):
Um, I think sometimes, yeah, just, um, just try to be true to yourself.
Ultimately.
To, to your own values.
And try to live in the way thatyou want to live that you wish and
should be treated, treat other peoplelike the way you would like to be.
(44:03):
I think that's, at the end of theday, you can't go far wrong and people
will respect you at a personal level.
In terms of how you live your life and howyou interact with others and treat others.
Geri (44:18):
It's a really important reminder about just keeping Keeping
things in perspective and, as yousaid, taking the time to remind
ourselves about what is important.
Liam (44:30):
Indeed.
Geri (44:32):
Yeah.
And on that note, I'lllook at wrapping up.
Is there anything that you wouldwant to say just in closing, Liam?
Liam (44:43):
I've probably said more than enough.
Geri (44:47):
Well, thank you very much.
And, Are you okay to say thatyou are actually recording this
from hospital wearing oxygen?
I'm, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Liam (44:59):
I've been waiting for somebody to crack in and pull me off.
Geri (45:05):
They've been very respectful.
It worked out well given all thehiccups we had trying to connect.
Liam (45:12):
Yeah.
Geri (45:13):
So thank you.
Liam (45:16):
Nice to talk with you.
Yeah.
Geri (45:18):
Thank you, Liam, and all the best.
Liam (45:21):
Thank you very much.
Take care.
Geri (45:26):
You can find the summary notes, a transcript and related
links for this podcast on www.
changingacademiclife.
com.
You can also subscribe toChanging Academic Life on iTunes,
Spotify and Google Podcasts.
And you can followChangeAcadLife on Twitter..
(45:47):
And I'm really hoping that we canwiden the conversation about how
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And you can contribute to this by ratingthe podcast and also giving feedback.
And if something connected withyou, please consider sharing this
podcast with your colleagues.
Together, we can make change happen.
Welcome to Changing Academic Life.
I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick and this isa podcast series where academics and
others share their stories, provideideas and provoke discussions about what
we can do individually and collectivelyto change academic life for the better.
Liam (00:29):
it can actually give you an appreciation of life, and of the fact
that you don't know how much life youhave, but you should pay attention to how
you spend it, and who you spend it with.
Geri (00:48):
And that's Liam Bannon.
Who's just talking about.
"You don't know how much lifeyou have, but you should pay
attention to how you spend it.
And who you spend it with?"
I'm really happy to finallybe able to bring part two of a
conversation with Liam Bannon.
Hopefully you will have already listenedto part one of our conversation that
(01:12):
was released in April, 2024, but itwas actually a conversation from 2017.
And.
And at the end of that conversation, Liamdid allude to the fact that there was
some health issues that he had going on.
So, what he's been reflecting onin this episode is the implications
(01:34):
of what he's been going through.
And he wanted this to befrom the heart as well.
He explains to us at the beginningthat in 2015, he had a very serious
cancer diagnosis for lung cancer.
That was supposed to have beenstage four and terminal then.
(01:56):
And he's also had some subsequent issueswith a brain tumor along with the lung
cancer . And yet here he is now in 2024.
However, we are recording thisinterview from his hospital
bed and he's on oxygen therapy.
Because he's had some subsequent issuesarise with both the lung and the brain.
(02:22):
Part of being in hospital, for whateverreason, we weren't able to connect
via Zoom or some other better qualityplatform for recording the audio.
And as a compromise, we'vebasically just recorded open
audio from a what's app call.
And.
(02:43):
So I do apologize in advance thatsome parts of the audio will be quite
difficult to hear or understand.
You will have heard some of thisin the excerpt at the beginning.
And Liam also wanted to make sure thatI explained that his voice quality
has been affected by the lung cancer.
(03:04):
So it's a lot more strangulatedand hoarse than normally.
So this in combination with the moreopen audio quality isn't the best
quality, but the content is really gold.
Because of that where relevant or Ithink with where there is a particularly
important things that Liam saying,I've tried to repeat or contextualize
(03:27):
what he's said so it makes it easier tolisten to, and there were other parts
that just weren't listenable to at all.
So I've just summarized them briefly.
And this is one episode, where youmay find it particularly useful to
follow the transcript along withthe audio that you can access, by
your podcast app or on the web page.
(03:51):
Liam also sent me a textafter the call about something
that he forgot to comment on.
And I can read thatdirectly now from his text.
"One thing I did not comment on remy illness was how my brain tumor
began to affect all my faculties,perceptual, cognitive affective.
(04:14):
In a very serious way in mid 2001.
And I was very lucky to have a craniotomy,to completely remove the tumor in
Jan 2022, restoring all my facultiessince January, 2022, spending 2022
and 2023 to rehabilitate physically.
(04:36):
Recovering my mental facultieswas an amazing experience."
End of quote.
. And that's a direct read from the textsthat he sent and what I think you hear
there is the appreciation for life thathe now has based on this experience with
(04:57):
his health, that even though he's talkingabout really serious craniotomy brain
tumor rehab, the appreciation for havinga couple of good years, with the rehab
and getting back some of those faculties.
And that's some of the mainthemes of what we talk about here.
A lot of it is about the perspectivethat can be really important to take,
(05:23):
a stepping back from the day-to-dayminutiae and challenges and problems, and
really stepping back and thinking about.
What is it that's important.
And.
The trade offs that we might make for ourcareer when we focus on the day-to-day
or we don't take that time to step backand that the costs of that and for
(05:48):
Liam, he talks about those costs interms of some of the relationship costs.
And particularly, I encourage youto listen through to the end because
he just has some really quite deepand compelling things to say about
about that stopping, reflecting,thinking about what's important.
(06:10):
Uh, putting a focus on therelationships and the people.
And just really being true to yourself.
So I really want to thank Liam and forbeing prepared to have this conversation
for his honesty and vulnerability in it.
And I hope that.
(06:31):
It's a salient reminder to all ofus that we do have a limited time
on this earth and it's, I knowit's something, not something that
we all often want to think about.
But how we can perhaps learnfrom people who've gone through
this in a really hard way.
To make better decisions now while we can.
(06:54):
To live a life that is meaningful,that is about people and
connections that are so important.
So I thank you for your patiencein advance for listening to this
and persisting despite the audio.
As I said, I hope that my littleinterjections might help clarify
some parts where it's not so clearand do stick with it to the end,
(07:16):
because it's really worthwhile.
Thank you, Liam.
It's really great that we've beenfinally able to connect and we've
not got the ideal technical setup.
So we'll just see how we go here.
When we finished the last conversationthat we had that I released, you
(07:41):
alluded to some different healthissues that had been going on for you.
Do you want to just elaborate a littlebit and give some context for that?
Liam (07:53):
Yes, well, just to keep it fairly brief, because I could
spend a couple of hours on it.
Um, but anyway, the basic thing is thatwhen I talked , it was back in 2017.
I'd already been involved, um, inquite a major set of issues connected
(08:16):
with my health, because, um, in 2015.
Um, I was actually working in, in Brazil.
I was a visiting professorat the university there, the
Federal University in Rio.
And I was actually just about to go thereagain, and I, um, did a health check,
(08:40):
and was kept in for observation, anda few days later, from zero, and like,
thinking I was fine, I was told therewas some issues, and then I was told I
had cancer, and then I was told, Quitesoon after that, in a day or two, that
actually was quite serious, and then it'sstage three, and the next thing I was
(09:02):
told, it's actually, no, it's stage four
I was actually, um, told it was terminal.
That was the actual word, um, and so itwas kind of, uh, quite jarring in terms of
there I was going along, or moving along.
And suddenly this happened.
(09:23):
So it's, it's suddenly, uh, yeah,and then I was told initially at
that time, but I actually, I was toldbasically, I wasn't given a specific
.time periods in like, but it was, I mean, it was get your things in
order, um, there's not much we cando, yeah, I mean, that's certainly,
that's, uh, a change, or a stop to yourplans, or whatever you might be doing.
(09:51):
Yeah, I mean , I had to cancelgoing back to Rio at that stage.
I didn't, I haven't been back there since.
So from October 2015 untilnow, that is, uh, September.
in 2024.
(10:11):
I've actually beendealing with the cancer.
Now that doesn't mean that I'm inthe hospital every day, but it's
meant that I've been, I've had this.
I've had this, uh, swordof Damocles over me.
So you're never quite sure, um, howyou're going to feel or what's happening.
(10:36):
So in between this time, in thoseseveral years, I've actually had
periods where I've been reasonablyalmost healthy, I would say.
But then there are other times when I getquite sick and I also So I was technically
diagnosed with, uh, uh, lung cancer,and, um, that's the major primary cancer.
(11:04):
But then, sometime later, Iwas, um, given that it was stage
4 and potentially had spread.
They found that I had a, uh, tumor inmy brain, so that became another issue.
And that tumor actually, um, they thendid radiation on that, and and after
(11:31):
doing the radiation, I had after effectsfrom that, which, um, meant I was getting
seizures, and intermittent seizures
.But they were recurrent, and that meant it affected my ability to drive.
And I live in a house, but noton a public transport route.
(11:54):
And I'm living alone,since my cancer diagnosis.
So, yes.
So secondly, Everyday lifebecomes quite different.
Geri (12:07):
Yeah, I cannot imagine.
Liam (12:12):
So I think in terms of my work, well, I just connected
with, um, my academic work.
I had already been, I had moved out ofmy, which taken retire early retirement
from my, my Limerick position..
And, uh, I was doing, um,various visiting placements.
(12:38):
I was taking visiting positions.
Um, In different parts of the world.
And, uh, well, so I, in that sense,it's, I wasn't leaving my regular job.
Yeah.
I used to have.
So, that in one sense meant, well, it wasgood and bad, I guess, because, it was
(13:02):
bad in that you didn't have your, yourown, or your, local network, or the people
you've been with, or your work colleaguesreally, because I wasn't in a workplace.
And the people I've been visitingin Brazil are not around.
I've seen maybe one ofthem, since that time.
(13:24):
It's uh, yeah, so actually that'sone of the difficulties and when
you're working or like I've been alsoconnected in internationally a lot
and I got a lot of um, satisfactionout of my international collaboration.
(13:44):
And that's both the academic work.
Um, but also the social, in thesense that you're meeting people
at conferences and workshops, etc.
And these are people that I'vebeen meeting, say, in some of
the CSCW cases since around 88,the very early days of CSCW.
(14:11):
Mm, yeah.
So they have been my workcolleagues for many years.
20 years or something more and, uh,yeah, so suddenly not being able to
give talks at conferences or meetpeople has actually been, uh, I would
(14:33):
say quite a difficult experience.
I mean, cause I've actually, youknow, inevitably people are busy and
they have their own private livesand family life and so they're not.
In contact or they don't see me.
I'm not physically at the meetingswhere the people are meeting also.
(14:59):
So this, yes, it makes mereflect a bit more on just the,
ephemerality of, of relations.
Even though I, like I thought I had avery strong, HCI and PDA, Participative
Design and CSCW and Interaction Design.
(15:23):
They're actually somewhatdistinct communities.
Especially in Europe where I'vebeen working in space mainly.
Um, but it was quite, you know,I knew people in those for over
20 years, you know, or more.
Yeah, yeah.
And then, suddenly, just kind of prettymuch disappeared because I wasn't there.
(15:50):
. Geri: They are interesting reflections about the local
global tradeoffs that we make.
'cause it is one of the thingsthat we, many of us love about the
academic life is the mobility thatwe have to work in different places
and travel in to different places.
And you talked about that lasttime where you worked and traveled
(16:13):
an enormous amount and theinternational networks that we have.
But what you're pointing to is the qualityof the relationships is, um, put into
sharp contrast, I guess, in that whenyou get to the situation like you've
been dealing with in these last years.
Yes, yes.
I mean, I was saying about, how much I'velearned from all the different places
(16:39):
I've been um, the people I've met, andthen say, from, say, 2000 or so, or the
late 90s on, I did a lot of mentoring,um, work and talks in different places,
and so was the, the, um, possibility ofbeing able to talk with other people,
(17:02):
being able to give your perspective.
In my case, a kind of more human centeredone, and that encouraged people to look
at Things a little bit differently maybethan the mainstream, but I appreciate
it so, and so the opportunity to beable to do that in different places was
(17:24):
something that I, I enjoyed very much.
It's always very much not justthe everyday or like the academic
interactions when you're withpeople in different places, but,
uh, it's just, yeah, the silencing.
(17:45):
. I'm not trying to make it sound
like, uh, or I'm notaccusing anybody of anything.
It's not.
People are, you know, involved in,you know, they have their family.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Most people do and they havechildren and there's a lot of.
(18:06):
It's very, very difficult, Ithink, you know, for anybody.
I don't actually, I can remember,I don't say it in my 30s or even
early 40s, thinking, I don't knowhow young academics with families,
you know, and partners and children,babies, how the hell do they do it?
How people are able tojuggle all of these things.
(18:30):
And maybe in a sense, the answer isyou have to, you know, be careful.
And I don't know how, giventhe career, um, difficulties in
developing your careerin the world these days.
I mean, in academia especially, I reallythink, I mean, I feel for young academics
(18:54):
because I think it's, uh, the pressuresthey're under are quite, quite enormous.
I honestly think it's, um, you know, I'vetalked to some people about this, younger
people, um, where they're reflecting onWhat can they do or can they, is this
(19:16):
this academic role the right one forthem because of some of these pressures?
I'm thinking if they did some other,I'm not saying necessarily, I mean
in many different parts, or kinds ofworkplace, there are different pressures
and I'm not saying there's no pressuresin other areas of the workplace.
There are, but in somecases they can be different.
(19:42):
Yeah, I think sometimes the pressureyou have as an academic is that, uh,
You just put on yourself in a way.
So in some sense it's not necessarilythe manager who is forcing
you to stay on on the weekend.
It's actually you are taking onanother reviewing responsibility yet
(20:06):
another, uh, journal editorship, yes.
Et cetera, you know?
Yes.
And, and then you've got friends whoare asking you to review their papers
and you don't want to let them down.
And, and so it means, I mean, I certainly,and again, I'm not trying to play what
(20:27):
we say in Irish, in the Irish language'An Béal Bocht', which means the
poor mouth and like sounding poor me.
. But I mean, there is a sense when I look.
back and think when I came back toLimerick, which at the time there was
a holiday over 20 years when, and thatdoesn't mean, I'm not saying that,
(20:51):
nobody said I couldn't take a holiday.
You had students, you had projects,you had, um, uh, postdocs, visitors,
you'd, like, so you just end uptaking on Way more in a sense.
If, if you actually did have a, amanager in the classical sense, I
(21:14):
think they would be able to, in somecases, say, you're taking on too much.
Yes.
You know, cut down a bit.
Geri (21:22):
So you're pointing to the fact that we have to be a lot more
personally responsible and reflectiveof the choices that we're making.
Liam (21:32):
Yes, exactly.
Geri (21:33):
But how do we get, how do we get that perspective?
Liam (21:38):
Well, it's really difficult when you're in the middle of, it's a
bit like, you know, if you're in themiddle of a rushing crowd and you're
trying to get your feet to the floor.
You want to stay.
I need to stop.
It's very difficult.
Because everything is moving around you.
And also some of the people thatyou might want to talk to or to find
(22:02):
as people that might give you somestability or a way of thinking about
or perspective on the situation.
It's not always easy to findthose people, first of all.
Geri (22:17):
Because we're all probably caught up in the same mad rush.
Yeah.
Liam (22:23):
Yeah.
Geri (22:24):
Yeah.
Liam (22:24):
So it's quite, it's quite difficult.
And for many people too, if they're inthat, it makes it difficult for them
to, to actually say to another person,well, Perhaps this isn't for you.
So on the one hand, you have the problemthat some cases, people who are academics,
(22:46):
given that they do have a commitmentto it, it's hard for them to sometimes
allow some people to go away or, youknow, to lose them because you feel that
they are intellects that might flourish.
Yeah.
But on the other hand, I don't know, Imean, I guess myself, I, I never thought
(23:10):
of it in a sense, I never thought ofmyself as a career academic, you know.
But the part of me that had a free spirit.
I was
Geri (23:22):
just going to say, you're always, you know, the opposite in
the sense of doing your own thing andnot playing the game so classically.
Liam (23:34):
Yeah, but you get caught up and in the end you, I mean, yes, it's quite
difficult, um, and so there was aperiod then for about 20 years when I,
I was inside in a way, and it was onlythen when I, I took early retirement
that, that was the deliberate, Itwasn't really retirement in a sense.
(23:57):
I mean, I stopped myposition because I was tired.
I just, um, I wanted to change.
I was getting more and moreinto a managerial, directorial
role and I, that wasn't reallywhat I thought I wanted to do.
Uh, I want it to be more,
I can remember speaking,looking at some of my group.
(24:19):
who were having kind of a lunch outsidemy office, and I was realizing, you
know, I'm getting Separated from my group.
I'm not actually doing work with them,you know Like just leading them in a way.
I mean, you're mentoringsome of those people.
Yes.
(24:39):
But in some cases, I wasn'tactually doing as much of that.
And I was actually traveling anddoing other international commitments.
And I started to feel thisis getting a bit strange.
The relation between, um, My group,ostensibly, in one place, and
(25:02):
the work I was doing so it justmade me reflect and move away.
I decided then I decided I wouldtake early retirement at fifty five.
Which is quite young, but I wantedjust to be able to take on different
challenges and just, or pick up ondifferent things and not feel pushed
(25:27):
or entrained into a particular way.
So I cut back on, on the international,you know, editorial things and challenges.
Geri (25:37):
So, what are the things that when you look back that you remember as
really important for you and what you'rereally proud of, because what you've
also pointed to is there have beentrade offs in all of these decisions,
but I'm just curious about, you know,given all the trade offs, what are
the things you'd celebrate about it?
Liam (25:56):
It's interesting, I can remember even back when I was a
post doc and I wanted to write, tomake a contribution at some level,
I wasn't necessarily looking to be abig professor at some big university
(26:17):
or anything, that wasn't my goal.
But I wanted to, I felt I wanted to tryand write or have something published that
some people who I was kind of had someacademic, , respect for felt was okay.
(26:39):
So that was the idea.
Like if I'd made that, I would be okay.
I didn't really care about gettinga hundred plus publications.
Geri (26:55):
So even though you haven't chased the numbers or the publications, I
can say from being a member of thosecommunities that your work has been
incredibly impactful because It'sbrought new perspectives, it's created
new links, and I think looking atthe citations for some of your top
cited papers , lots of other peoplehave found them impactful as well.
(27:19):
And Liam goes on to describe here someof the interactions that he had with
lots of people going back to the 1980sand his time in the U S and also
talking about coming back to Europeand working with some of the European
networks and the audio was just alittle bit too hard to understand.
So I've, given you the summaryhere and we'll pick up again.
Liam (27:43):
But there was a lot of energy and intellectual energy.
And also it so happened that therewere a lot of, uh, people who got on
really well with each other personally.
Geri (27:58):
So that, that points back to all of those international networks and
professional relationships that youhad that you also reflected on in the
beginning about there's some of thetrade offs that you make because they're
more, distributed and tied to the work.
I'm, I'm also just curious what would be.
(28:18):
How would you talk to your youngerself now based on the reflections you
have from this perspective and whatyou've been going through in terms
of choices, decisions, trade offs?
Liam (28:32):
I don't know.
Sometimes I think,
Geri (28:35):
And again, the audio just really wasn't very clear at all, but Liam was
talking about how he actually reallywanted to go traveling and really enjoyed
his post-doc and not being over burdenedwith teaching duty and meeting, lots
of interesting people in computing andcognitive science and communication and
(28:56):
sociology and anthropology, and it justbeing a wonderful few years for him.
And we pick up with Liam again,as he then goes to the question
of, well, what about settling?
Liam (29:14):
So, you can do that.
The question then becomes,well, what about settling?
And I mean, I have to, uh,that's an issue, I guess.
Because there's some people I know, whenI went to Canada initially, I have Irish
friends who are doing their PhDs, but theywere very clear either they were going
(29:35):
to go back to Ireland, or they weren't,they were going to go stay in Canada.
That was, you know, they're going tomake a life, that's what they decided,
and then they'd ask me, what am I doing,and well I don't know really, maybe
I'll go down to California, maybe I'll,
Geri (29:54):
And Liam goes on to talk about that he was thinking about where to go next or
where not to go and ended up making thedecision to come back to Europe and not
specifically to Ireland, but then it notalways being easy to get your wishes, to
match up to the opportunities that wereavailable or the dream of what you'd like.
Liam (30:18):
It ended up, there were some interesting job opportunities in
Scandinavia, and the work they weredoing was interesting, so I, on that
side, I was interested to go there,but it wasn't necessarily the, uh, the
place that I was expecting to go to.
It's kind of ironic that I'm, youknow, when I look back on it now.
(30:43):
My time there between 1988 and 93,so it was, uh, five, six years.
But I made a lot of contact and goodfriends there who I know quite well.
And that's still, in a sense, it'salmost my home community in some way.
Even after 20 years away.
Geri (31:05):
Liam then picks up on the question of what advice to give and,
and that it made him think about a fewpeople that he's talked with privately
when they'd been questioning theirown motivations and career choices.
And these are people who are20, 30 years younger than him.
And his own reflection was that hedidn't rethink this often enough.
Liam (31:31):
This time I was in California, about going back, I had this idea that I would
like to get back to Europe and that wasan override goal, but I'm just thinking
in terms of some of these other peopleI've talked with, um, it was cases where
(31:52):
they were questioning, they had other, um,interests at times, but they weren't sure
the academic path was the one for them.
Given the pressures thereare on the younger academics
or with families, whatever.
I mean, I certainly, um, thoughtthat I was cautioning them against
(32:19):
it completely, but I certainly wassaying, you know, you really Need to
think about this and then, you know,go with what you feel inside yourself.
Yeah.
Are you really feeling this isreally motivating me or not?
Geri (32:39):
So just to repeat what Liam said there, because I
think it was so important.
Liam proposed that you really need tothink about this and you need to go
with what you feel inside yourself.
Are you really feeling likethis is motivating me or not?
And he goes on to talk about.
(32:59):
People, even in their thirtiesnow starting to feel this kind of
overburden and feeling the pressures.
And he talked about the challengesof teaching these days and the.
Uh, increasing demands from studentsthat are being placed on academics.
And what he also sees as some of the lackof respect and some of the breakdown of
(33:20):
traditional values and talking about it,becoming a bit of a rat race in some ways.
And then he poses thequestion . What's the goal.
What do you want to do with your life?
Liam (33:35):
You know, what's, what's the goal, you know.
What do you want to do with your life?
Um, what, what can yousee at the end of it?
It's, uh.
Geri (33:48):
And for you now, like, how do you reflect on what's
important in your life now?
Liam (33:57):
Well,
that's a difficult one, I must say.
Um,
I have quite a few.
I sometimes feel a bit like, uh, acartoon road runner, and he's going
(34:18):
along over the cliff, you know, I mean,
well, we're all terminalin one sense, you know?
We all, we, we, we will die.
But, uh, there's, forsome of us it may be, um.
to happen sooner.
And then, well, actually,it's sort of amazing that I'm
(34:39):
still, um, given my prognosis
Geri (34:44):
yes, stage four in 2015, and here we are September 2024.
That's really amazing.
Liam (34:52):
Well, there is, um, yeah, I have, I do have regrets because I, In
some cases, I didn't, yes, I didn'tprioritize maybe my relations and
my personal relations with peopleas much as I should have at times.
(35:15):
I let things move along.
Geri (35:19):
I think it's interesting that Liam goes on now to talk about
some of the issues around thoserelationships with people and not
perhaps giving them the priority thathe now reflects on as being important.
Liam (35:38):
I can remember when I was traveling and I took this time out this year.
In 1985,
86, in Asia, and I rememberthe people talking to me then.
I was actually, wasn't thatyoung, I mean, well, 31 or 2.
But I can remember asking me, you know,where I was from, and how old I was, and
(36:02):
then they'd say, Are you married yet?
And I'd be thinking, wow.
No, I don't, no, notyet, not yet, you know.
And have you children?
No, not yet.
No, I was going to takecare of you in your old age.
No, I'm kind of, we have, we havethings for that in the West, you know,
(36:24):
but actually, the reality is At theend of the day, sometimes, family
has become quite, quite important.
And if you haven't been around them,then no, you're not, they're not there.
Because you've physically movedand lost those connections.
In some cases, it's not soeasy to reconnect, you know.
(36:52):
So, yes, I've, I've had to handle orcome to terms with some of those lack
of choices, you know, in some caseswhere I, I didn't, well, I did some
decisions, but I didn't make all ofthem, you know, or I let things slide
a bit, or wasn't pushed on things.
(37:14):
And, and those have, um, I guessmaybe part of me was feeling out
there was this continuing explorersort of role, you think of the
Arctic Explorers in the early 1900s.
You know, like some of the people,even in their 60s, they're still out.
(37:39):
You know, whether it's on ships oron, on airplanes up in the Arctic.
And sometimes they end up dying upthere, like it's, you know, they crack.
But in a way, it's, it's almostlike that's the fitting end
for the, for the explorer.
But, uh, have a.
I had a sense that I would be In someways, yeah, traveling, mentoring, being
(38:06):
in different communities, hopefullyin that kind of, for me, being able
to hopefully contribute something, um,as I was older in different settings,
different communities, but actuallybecause of my mobility problems, I'm
(38:27):
actually not been able to travel even.
Yeah.
That is something I really miss.
I miss being able to see people,being able to see places.
Yeah.
And the idea, you know, to be ableto just hike a mountain or swim.
(38:49):
So I miss it.
Geri (38:52):
And Liam will continue on now and remind us that it's important that every
now and then we stop and take stock.
And also he reminds usto take our holidays.
So I let Liam pick that up.
Liam (39:08):
So I think that's another thing every so often that
they take stock, you know.
Whether you have it, it's a holiday periodor And take your holidays, by the way.
Yes.
If you're not Get out of where you are.
I mean, I took a few days at theend of the conference or whatever.
I didn't really get out of the setting.
(39:29):
And I .... It's gonna allow yourselfto think of where you're at, who
you're with at the time, what'simportant in your life, you know?
Yeah.
It's one of the parts of it, it'sironic, but people say there's a
lot about getting a serious cancer,which is very often it can be.
(39:55):
In some ways, I mean, it's, you know,it's ridiculous in one sense, but it
can actually give you an appreciationof life, and of the fact that you
don't know how much life you have, butyou should pay attention to how you
spend it, and who you spend it with.
Geri (40:18):
And if I can just repeat that, because I know it was a bit hard
to hear, but I think so important.
So he was talking about taking holidaysand allowing yourself time to think
about where you're at who you're with atthe time what's important in your life.
And reflecting on the fact thatwhen you get a serious cancer
(40:41):
diagnosis, Uh, it can actually giveyou a real appreciation of life.
And the fact that you don't knowhow much life you will have.
But you should pay attentionto how you spend it.
And who you spend it with
Liam (41:04):
and not to just suddenly be grumbling about the day to
day things that are going on.
But, um, really prioritize and rememberand remind yourself every so often,
about, the fact that you're If you arein good health, the fact that you have
(41:24):
a partner who you care about and caresabout you, hopefully, and potentially
have, have, um, family or children orwhatever that is there in your life,
those are so, so important relative.
To, like, at the end of the day, whatis going to be important in terms
(41:49):
of your, your legacy, and you know,I mean, I, it's nice to think that,
To people who remember something that Iwrote or, or maybe even just words, like I
said when we talked, um, that potentiallyshifted how they thought about the
(42:11):
field, you know, I'm not trying to expecteverybody on everything I say to come
from to change the world or anything.
Geri (42:19):
Again, just to repeat what Liam said for emphasis and to help for clarity.
He talked about, Not to begrumbling about the day-to-day
things that are going on.
But to really prioritize and remember,and remind yourself every so often.
About the fact that if you're ingood health and the fact that you
(42:41):
have a partner who cares about youand you care about, and potentially
maybe family or children, whateverthere is in your life, these are
the things that are so important.
Relative to other thingsthat, may be about.
People rememberingsomething that you wrote.
(43:05):
So he then goes on in the next bitthat you'll hear and talks about the
importance of then just being true toyourself, to your own values and living
in the way that you want to live.
And treating other people like theway you would like to be treated.
And at the end of the day, you can'tgo far wrong and people will respect
(43:28):
you at a personal level in terms ofhow you live your life and how you
interact with others and treat others.
So you'll hear Liam saythis in his own words.
Liam (43:40):
Um, I think sometimes, yeah, just, um, just try to be true to yourself.
Ultimately.
To, to your own values.
And try to live in the way thatyou want to live that you wish and
should be treated, treat other peoplelike the way you would like to be.
(44:03):
I think that's, at the end of theday, you can't go far wrong and people
will respect you at a personal level.
In terms of how you live your life and howyou interact with others and treat others.
Geri (44:18):
It's a really important reminder about just keeping Keeping
things in perspective and, as yousaid, taking the time to remind
ourselves about what is important.
Liam (44:30):
Indeed.
Geri (44:32):
Yeah.
And on that note, I'lllook at wrapping up.
Is there anything that you wouldwant to say just in closing, Liam?
Liam (44:43):
I've probably said more than enough.
Geri (44:47):
Well, thank you very much.
And, Are you okay to say thatyou are actually recording this
from hospital wearing oxygen?
I'm, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Liam (44:59):
I've been waiting for somebody to crack in and pull me off.
Geri (45:05):
They've been very respectful.
It worked out well given all thehiccups we had trying to connect.
Liam (45:12):
Yeah.
Geri (45:13):
So thank you.
Liam (45:16):
Nice to talk with you.
Yeah.
Geri (45:18):
Thank you, Liam, and all the best.
Liam (45:21):
Thank you very much.
Take care.
Geri (45:26):
You can find the summary notes, a transcript and related
links for this podcast on www.
changingacademiclife.
com.
You can also subscribe toChanging Academic Life on iTunes,
Spotify and Google Podcasts.
And you can followChangeAcadLife on Twitter..
(45:47):
And I'm really hoping that we canwiden the conversation about how
we can do academia differently.
And you can contribute to this by ratingthe podcast and also giving feedback.
And if something connected withyou, please consider sharing this
podcast with your colleagues.
Together, we can make change happen.
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