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February 12, 2025 43 mins

This is part 1 of my discussion with Matthew Barr and Oana Andrei who work together in the Education and Practice Section in the School of computing science at the University of Glasgow. It was the experiences of Matt as head of Section that led Oana to suggest he would be good to talk to. Together they share their experiences of what makes for good academic leadership and change, including the psychological safety and sense of belonging of members, the impact of everyday micro-interactions, and fostering a supportive environment. Matt discusses his approach in leadership, such as seeking feedback for self-improvement and actively supporting staff promotions. Oana also shares her perspective on the importance of belonging and mentorship in academic settings and the experience of good leadership. Their insights provide a meaningful look at how we can transform academic work culture for the better. 

 Overview:

00:29 Episode Introduction

01:52 Welcome

02:28 Oana's Journey and Career

03:46 Matt's Journey and Career

06:13 Leadership and Management Insights

10:00 Creating a Supportive Work Environment

13:29 Supporting Promotion for a Learning, Teaching and Scholarship Track

21:23 Micro Actions That Can Make All The Difference

25:16 Being a Role Model in How We Handle Bad Days

28:45 Learning From Experience What Not To Do

36:44 Taking Care For Belonging

41:20 Linking to Part 2

43:14 End 

Related Links

Oana Andrei, Lecturer (Ass Prof) Uni of Glasgow  webpage and LinkedIn profile 

Matthew Barr (Senior Lecturer) Uni of Glasgow webpage and LinkedIn profile

Role modelling paper mentioned by Matt:


Mark as Played
Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Geri (00:05):
Welcome to Changing Academic Life.
I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this isa podcast series where academics and
others share their stories, provideideas, and provoke discussions about what
we can do individually and collectivelyto change academic life for the better.

(00:29):
After my psychological safety episodelast year, I received an email from Oana
Andrei from the University of Glasgowsuggesting I might want to talk with
her wonderful colleague, Matthew Barr.
Matt is head of the Education andPractice section in the School of
Computing Science at the University ofGlasgow, where he also leads the Graduate

(00:51):
Apprenticeship in Software Engineeringprogram that both he and Oana work on.
Oana is a lecturer there.
I decided it could be great to talk tothem together, and thankfully they agreed.
And we had such a rich conversationthat I decided to split it into

(01:12):
two because there were so manydifferent topics to share there.
Part one here that you'll listento is a wonderful conversation,
I think, showcasing whatleadership with care looks like.
It reminds us of the realitythat we're all humans.

(01:32):
And it also reminds us that our everydaymicro interactions can make a big
difference for people for good or for bad.
So I hope you enjoy this conversation aspart one and look forward to part two.

(01:52):
I'm very excited today to havetwo people with me and that's
Matthew Barr and Oana Andrei, whoare from University of Glasgow.
And this conversation came aboutbecause Oana contacted me without
Matt knowing to say, he would be agreat person to speak to because he's
an amazing leader and manager andhas had a really interesting career.

(02:15):
So I thought it would be interesting totalk to both of you first, do you want
to just briefly introduce yourselves?

Oana (02:24):
Yeah, I'll start.
Thank you, Geri, for having us here.
I'm Oana, I'm a lecturer inthe School of Computing Science
at the University of Glasgow.
And I've been here, in fact, almost 16years ago, like this month, next week.
Um, but I had a long stint as apostdoc for almost 10 years or so.

(02:45):
Um, And then in 2020, I startedmy role as a lecturer on learning,
teaching and scholarship track.
And so it's been four yearsand a half being teaching here.
Um, previously I've done my PhDin France on formal methods again.
And, uh, before that I come from Romania.

(03:07):
I've lived there for 25 years,studied there, and that's where I
got into formal methods, really.
That was also teaching at the Universityof, um, Alexandru Ioan Cuza Iași um,
before moving to doing my PhD in France,and then somehow I landed here in Glasgow.
Um, initially just for a year and a half,but life happened and just stayed here.

Geri (03:30):
that?
Yeah.
Yes, we came over from Australia in 2001for what we thought would be a year.
And we're still in Europe.
Um, Matt, thank you, Oana.

Matt (03:45):
Yeah.
Thanks, Geri.
Um, yeah, so I'm Matt.
I am also based in the School ofComputing Science here at Glasgow.
I've been in the city of Glasgow since 97.
I'm originally from, from Belfast.
My accent wanders a little bit.
Um, but, and I've been at theuniversity for about 17 years,
but not always in this department.

(04:07):
Uh, something we might pick up onlater, but together with Oana, um, I
run our apprenticeship degree program.
So a work based degree program in softwareengineering, and I wear some other hats
as well, but that's probably enough.

Geri (04:22):
Just mention some of those hats, briefly,
.Matt: Yes.
So, until the 1st of January, I wasdirector of education for SICSA, which is
the organization that represents all ofthe computing science schools in Scotland.
So, uh, 14 universities.
Um, and I also founded the Ada ScotlandFestival, which is about getting more

(04:44):
girls into computing science and tech.
And that's been going for five years now.
And that also is related to a shortterm role where I'm the local chair for
the Lovelace Colloquium, which is anevent that we'll have here in April.
Um, and that's also about encouragingwomen to study computing science by giving

(05:06):
them an opportunity to present their work.
Is there anything else?
Mm hmm.

Oana (05:11):
Head of section?

Matt (05:12):
Oh yes, um,

Geri (05:14):
ha ha.

Matt (05:16):
Yes, somehow I'm also head of section, which technically
means me one as boss, but, um,obviously I've forgotten that.
One as the real boss.

Geri (05:24):
which is why we, why we're here in the first place.

Matt (05:28):
Yes.
Yes, so, um, that's been abouta year and a half, I think.

Geri (05:33):
Mm.

Matt (05:34):
So I took over the head of section about a year and a half ago, it was
the computing education section, butwe staged a little, I don't want to
say coup, but there was a maneuver,uh, where we brought in the software
engineering lab as well and combined thatinto an education and practice section.
So that's, that's what I'm head of.

Geri (05:55):
I think it's interesting that you forgot about the head of school, because
it says a lot about what your values are.
Actually.
I mean, how do you interpret that?

Matt (06:06):
Yeah, I mean, when it's pointed out to me and I see Oana smiling, I realized
that it probably does, um, say something.
But then I forgot that that'skind of the point of the of the
podcast, right, is about leadership.
And I wouldn't be here if, if I wasn'tin, you know, it didn't have that
relationship with Oana and the team.
So yes, um, I'm not sure.

(06:28):
It still feels a little bitfunny introducing yourself
as head of section, right?
Or saying that you're someone's boss.
It's kind of weird.
So maybe I avoid it.

Geri (06:37):
it's not been your career ambition

Matt (06:41):
No, no, no.
Yeah.
It feels a bit strange.

Geri (06:46):
There's so many things in your introductions that I want to follow up on.
But given that the trigger for thiswas the email that you sent Oana,
what was it, or what is it aboutMatt's leadership and line management?
Because you said he's an amazingeducator, mentor, ally and supporter.

(07:09):
What is it about Matt thatprompted you to contact me?

Oana (07:15):
So I was thinking about this.
First of all, it was the episode from,I took a note here, like the 30th of
October on fostering psychologicalsafety and research environment.
As I was listening to it.
Yeah, it feels like what's happeninghere, how I perceive it in the
workplace Um, translating that intowhy, like, trying to understand why

(07:43):
I experienced this psychological safetyis, it's the way that Matt has been,
um, I don't know, maybe unknowinglybuilding up this sense of belonging to
everyone in, in, first of all, in thegraduate apprenticeship program where I
first met him, when I started as a, uh,a lecturer four and a half years ago.

Geri (08:06):
Mm-hmm

Oana (08:07):
Um, it has been, um, an excellent introduction for me to,
it, it was during the pandemic time.
It was the first year of COVID, andit's been immensely stressful with the
lockdowns, me homeschooling and all thestress and teaching online and everything.
But the team that Matt, uh, settogether around Teaching and supporting

(08:31):
the students has been really great.
And I've increasingly got this sense ofbelonging that I've missed before that.

Geri (08:42):
Mm hmm.

Oana (08:44):
And it was
I think as a researcher, as I was apostdoctoral researcher before, it
felt more lonely to be a researcher onmy own, even though I'm working with
some people, but getting to be in ateam, having this meaningful job of

(09:04):
supporting students and teaching themand designing learning, it created
this sense of belonging that really,um, made me feel at home really here.
And, um, and then, yeah, I was lookingat Matt doing all these amazing things.
Like, how does he have time to do this?
And what drives him?
What's the Matt is nodding here.

Geri (09:24):
I know, they're sitting together here and I know it can
be tricky, Matt, to hear this.
So I appreciate that you'rebravely sitting there.
Go on,

Oana (09:37):
so this, him supporting girls and women in computing science has also been
an inspiration and also leading thisnew section in the school and putting
his footprint or trying to bring peopletogether in, um, in a new combination.
It's been interesting tosee and inspiring as well.

Geri (10:00):
I'm curious, can you give us any specific examples of what Matt
does that leads to those sorts offeelings of belonging and I also
really heard about the meaningfulnessof the work that you're doing.
You talked about meaningful job.

Oana (10:19):
Yes.
So, um, first of all is communication.
there's a lot of communication.
We use Microsoft Teams, say, and,um, we have channels dedicated
for communication meetings.
People are free to speak up their mind.
If there's something he just puthis foot on the door and said,
I have to do this right away.

(10:39):
Because of that and that we have tomeet some targets to help students.
One.
So that's that comes from, um,the him being program director.
Another aspect would be.
So yeah, one year into him being the headof section, he sent an email to everyone.

(11:03):
I want to gather some feedback,anonymous feedback about what he's doing.
Oh, that's interesting.
I can just give it not anonymously, but

Geri (11:09):
Mm.
Mm.

Oana (11:12):
so that's not something I've seen before.
And that shows a sense of, um, Humilityand also respect to others opinions
and taking out, um, advice fromeveryone in the team on how to become
a better leader, but also how to makethe team or the section even better.

Geri (11:37):
Wow.
That is really unusual.

Matt (11:42):
It was quite wracking.

Geri (11:43):
what do you want to say in your own defense here?

Oana (11:46):
We did not get any feedback from your collective feedback, so I don't
know what you did with that feedback.

Matt (11:52):
It was positive, thankfully, but I was extremely
nervous about putting that out.
I just thought it was, but itfelt like the right thing to do.
My pitch for taking over as head ofsection was that I wanted to support
people, that that was at the core of it.
And, um, and that means, you know,a laser like focus on promotion,

(12:14):
making sure everybody's happy, andum, moving away a little bit from,
you must turn in this paper, or acertain number of papers per year.
It's more about making surepeople have what they need.
Um, and it occurred to me that, youknow, if I was serious about that, If
I was serious about doing a good jobas a leader, I should actually ask
the people who were affected by it.

(12:34):
So, um, I actually did this, I was askedto do this once before on a leadership
program that I was enrolled on through theuniversity, which, um, it's the one time
I've had some good CPD, I think, Certainlyit was at the better end of the CPD scale.
Um,

Geri (12:52):
CPD being continuing professional development.

Matt (12:55):
Pardon me.
Yes, that's right.
Yes, training.
Yes, on the job training.
And, I found it really insightful, right?
I actually found it quite, um,overwhelming, the kind of feedback I got.
That was true 360 feedback.
In that case, it was, you know,people above me, people I work with,
you know, and all the rest of it.
So this was focused more on justthe people that report to me just to

(13:17):
check that I was doing okay, becausewho else is going to know, right?
Who's going to know better than the peoplewho are actually having to put up with me?
So that was, that wasthe thinking behind it.

Geri (13:27):
Right.
Oana?

Oana (13:29):
that reminds me one thing I appreciated um, in Matt's, uh,
leadership here is the support hegives to everyone in the team about on
mentoring, not mentoring on promotion.
And, as he has this expression of liftingpeople up, but also what I think is
he's meeting people where they are, andthen trying to lift them up from there.

(13:54):
And, thinking about my progressionhere on my work in terms of promotion.
It's been definitely more focused.
And that's been very helpful.
I wasn't thinking well, I wasjust surviving really in the
first couple of years becauseof the pandemic and everything.
And then, at the right time we hadthese discussions about promotions

(14:15):
and that's how we have to focus andvery supportive in those discussions.

Geri (14:24):
So the discussion about the promotion, how do you conduct that, Matt?
Like, how do you gointo those discussions?

Matt (14:34):
It's quite pragmatic.
So, Oana mentioned that when she washired as a lecturer, she was on our
learning, teaching and scholarshiptrack, which is the teaching focused
track, um, as opposed to the moretraditional research and teaching track.
Um, and I'm on that too.
And, I get the sense that because it'sless well developed, less well understood,

(14:56):
there are fewer opportunities for peopleto develop and to be promoted, right?
So, from my own experience, when Iwent from, you know, lecturer to senior
lecturer, for example, I knew that itwas quite difficult to pull together the
evidence and to persuade more experienced,like, professors who had come up through
the more traditional route just to,right, it's, it's, yeah, I'm sure it's

(15:18):
a, It's a fairly common issue, I think,um, so with that in mind, and this is
something when I was reflecting onwhat I'd done for this interview, my own
experience there has come into it, right?
So, um, you can do twothings with your experience.
You can learn from it and apply itto other people, or you can pull
up the ladder behind you, right?

(15:39):
And we may come on to it later,but there's one person that came
to mind, um, in my experience, whopulled the ladder up behind them.
And I was like, no, that'snot what I'm going to do.
Um, I don't want to bethat kind of leader.
So whenever we sit down and wehave these scheduled meetings,
we get the motion criteria out.
We have the matrix there.
It's absolutely.

(16:00):
As I said, it's pragmatic, right?
We just need to, what do we needto do to get you to the next grade?
And the thing about that ispeople are doing excellent work.
Someone like Oana isdoing tons of great stuff.
And it's just, part of thatconversation is just pointing that
out and putting it in the appropriatebox to show, look, You're on track.

(16:20):
Um, a lot of what we do on the teachingtrack is it feels like, well, it's
just our jobs, but actually, you know,often we're going above and beyond
or even just doing a good job, right?
So people don't thinknecessarily to document that.
So they don't think theyhave a promotion case.
Um, so it's about teasing that stuff outand then it's about filling the gaps.

(16:43):
So one of the things we can do is.
I mean, it's not like I'm not in agreat position of influence like some
of the professors you've had on inthe past, Geri, but I still have some
influence, or at least I'm at thepoint in my career where I don't care.
I can stick my neck out andorchestrate an invited talk, right?
I've got the brass neck that I can say,I know someone who'd be really great.

(17:07):
to come and speak to your staff,come and speak to your colleagues.
How about you invite them?
Because that's one of thecriteria for promotion, right?
It's like, it's a, uh, is it esteem?
Or it's, it's, it's a box that you,we can tick, but that's something I
can easily engineer with no effort.
But even five years ago, I wouldn't havefelt comfortable doing that, you know?
So, um, now I can reach out to peopleand create those opportunities.

(17:30):
Um, so we, we, we come up with a plan.
We try to do it together.
We do things like we work on publicationson pieces of scholarship together.
So, you know, if I'm thinking of doingsomething, why not get three or four
people from the team involved and thenwe all get a publication out of it.
Um, and then

Oana (17:49):
Yeah, that has been very useful.
Getting me on board a couple of years ago.
It's like, Oh, why not?
And some of us, would you liketo get on board on this paper?
I'm going to do most of the work, butjust seeing or me seeing the behind
the scene, how to pull out the stringsand everything has been very useful
and very encouraging, motivating.

(18:09):
Like I can do that aswell if I have the time.
So that's been again something

Geri (18:15):
mm, mm,

Oana (18:17):
appreciate very much.

Matt (18:18):
Yeah, and it's great for me, too, because I get smart cookies
like Oana me with my papers, right?
And someone who can You know,bring their experience to bear and
point out what doesn't work, right?
It's, um, we were working on, wewere working on an experience report.
Hope you don't mind me saying this.
And, uh, well, I know it was quitefrank in, in her response saying, I

(18:39):
don't think this works in a sense.
And I was like, great.
Okay.
Better fix it then.
Um, but that's brilliant.
Right?
So yes, three or four of us are goingto have our names in that paper if it
gets accepted, but it works both ways.
Like, it's great for me too.
So.

Oana (18:54):
Yeah, I'm new to the scholarship of learning and teaching
and writing educational papers.
I still have my 20 years background offormal methods, theoretical computer
science, so it's, um, I'd say I bring anew perspective to this, but I'm getting
more into the education side of things.
Yeah.

Geri (19:15):
Yeah,

Matt (19:16):
Luckily I don't really have a discipline, so I don't have any hangups
jumped around all over the place.

Geri (19:23):
which will be interesting to come to, but, um, Matt, I heard you
talk about lots of different rolesthat you play and I'm going to see if I
can summarize them or play them back.
So, um,

(19:44):
there's your basic stance coming intoit, which is really about how can I
support people and how can I help?
them.
And, and everything thatyou do is oriented to that.
And even to the point of puttingout a request for anonymous
feedback, where you don't knowwhat's going to come back at all.
But that genuine saying to people, Iwant to do a good job at supporting you.

(20:07):
That's a really important message.
I like the way you talked about, andI'm going to use my own words here
of holding up a mirror in a way toOana to say, this is what you're good
at, because people get lost in thedetails and don't see the day to day.
Um, you talked about playing a sponsorrole, in promoting her and using your

(20:28):
networks to help her achieve those sortsof commitments, as well as That really
lovely, um, uh, you know, and I knowthat one of your programs is a graduate
apprenticeship program, but almost thatapprenticeship model in bringing people
together to collaborate on a project.
And it's not strictly master apprentice.

(20:48):
It's, as Oana said, coming withdifferent background and experiences.
And then the way you also wereclear that you accepted, well,
I think it's significant.
It says something about therelationship that Oana felt able to
say about the, the experience report.

(21:09):
This isn't working.
There are many leadershiprelationships where you would
not be comfortable saying that.
And that you said, Oh, great feedback.
Let's see what we can do with this.
So, I just thought theywere worth pulling out.
And I also heard, you said about justcontacting someone to say I've got this

(21:31):
great person who could come and giveyou a talk and it didn't take much time.
And that's the other thingthat these really small micro
moments that don't take much time

Matt (21:42):
Yes,

Geri (21:43):
can just be so impactful.
Mm

Matt (21:45):
yes.
In some ways, again, thinking aboutthis in advance, it's quite terrifying
that those little interactions, thoselittle actions can make a difference.
Because it goes both ways, right, youcould do something that seems innocuous
to you and it could set someone off,um, on a very, on a different path.
And I've experienced that myself.
Um, you know, even little bits offeedback can make all the difference.

(22:10):
Um, something that occurred tome was, and Oana has mentioned
this about student support.
A lot of what we do to support ourstudents and the way we interact
with our students is directlyapplicable to how we treat our team,
how we treat our colleagues, it'srecognizing that those people are
individuals that those are people.
And I think what's very easy when itbecomes your job to sort of treat.

(22:33):
them as a target or a taskand lose that people focus.
Um, because every failure and everysuccess and every up and down that I feel
or one feels can be felt by everyone else.
And you know, when you start to boilit down to think, well, I've got 13, 14
annual review interviews to do this year.

(22:53):
It's not a number.
Each one of those is an individual person.
And that's the way we shouldbe treating our students.
And that applies also to our staff.
And.
I was thinking back to my student career.
I was a terrible undergraduate student.
Um, um, uh, you know, I, I cameback and did a master's later
to try and, make up for that.
And I did.

(23:15):
But even during that period, it'sthe, it's the, it's the lecturers,
the teachers who went the extra mile.
I could see that they cared.
And that's what inspired me to actuallydo some work, you know, and even when I
came back to do my master's here in thisschool, actually, I can still remember
20 years later getting a particular pieceof positive feedback from a lecturer

(23:36):
called John O'Donnell, you'll, one Imight know, um, that I still remember now.
And it was a piece of writing.
It wasn't technical.
I mean, I'm not, The world'sgreatest programmer, right?
I'm better with words, but I stillremember his feedback on that written
piece of work, and, you know, that madeall the difference, potentially to my
career, because later on, maybe I'mjumping ahead here a little bit, but

(24:00):
I was, I was working, as a systemsor research systems developer, but
teaching on the side, because I wantedto, and that was my way into teaching.
And then a lectureship came up in myown department, in my own subject area,
where I was teaching and where I hadreceived a teaching award from the
university, but I was told I wasn'tallowed to apply for the lectureship

(24:21):
because I didn't have a PhD, right?
So, this is a long way of sayingthat I don't think I would have
had the confidence, potentially,to even think about doing a PhD if
it hadn't been for that little bitof feedback, you know what I mean?
It's that terrifying thing, thatlittle, um, It's not quite a sliding
doors moment, but it's that sort of,you know, that little moment where

(24:42):
something has stuck, and then yearslater, it's had a huge impact on my life.
Um, if that makes sense.
So I think if you think about feedbackto staff as well as feedback to
students, it can be transformationaland By the same token, potentially
damaging if you're not careful.

Geri (25:01):
Yeah, totally.
And the, the fact that the impact,as you said, is years on, like
invites us to always bring careto our interactions, doesn't it?

Matt (25:16):
Yes, um, yes, I've done some work with role modeling with
some colleagues, Virginia Grandeand, uh, Päivi Kinnunen and others.
And it's about what we rolemodel as educators and that
means also leaders as well.
So it's role modeling interactions,role modeling emotions and, and so on.
I guess we do it asparents as well, right?

(25:38):
It's what you role model is what's goingto, people are going to pick up on.
I think that's really important to, tobear in mind, but it's not always easy.
As reflective andempathetic as you can be.
Um, we all have bad days.
You know, and I think, um,there's two sides to that.
There's being mindful that theperson you're talking to could be

(25:59):
having a bad day, could be, you know,some kind of mental health concern
or something going on at home.
And so maybe they've droppedthe ball on something, but
it's because of something else.
But also, and this is where Istruggle a little bit, we didn't
talk about this in advance, but, um,if I'm having a bad day, right, my
mental health isn't always great.

(26:22):
And You really need to keep an eyeon that because that can affect my or
cloud my interactions with the team.
Um, we can maybe talk about thata little bit more, but yeah.

Oana (26:34):
We experienced this in the team and.
Then Matt came back and apologized.
I've done this the same.
So again, realized I wasn't, uh, yeah,I let my non work stuff, make me feel
a bit more snappy, a bit more snappyin interactions with colleagues.
So then acknowledging it and then justadmitting to everyone and apologize.

(27:01):
So that's, yeah, I think it's important.

Geri (27:04):
Hmm.
The permission to be human, tohave your good and bad days.

Matt (27:09):
Yeah, absolutely.

Geri (27:11):
Oana, do you want to say any more about anything else in response
to what Matt's just been talking about?

Oana (27:21):
So I wanted to mention also his, uh, contributions and I think it's just
dedication really to everything that, um,we have this award in the UK called Athena
Swan, which is more related to, to, EDI,so Equality, Diversity and Inclusion.
And he's been a great contributorin the school as well.

(27:43):
Um, Like whenever I go to meetings, you'llsay, people say, Oh yeah, Matt did that.
Matt introduced this.
Matt did that.
And, we have to ask Matt.

Geri (27:51):
Mm.
Mm.

Oana (27:54):
Um, so it's selfless involvement and bringing up new ideas of let's do this.
Let's see if it works or not.
Let's see how we can support people aroundus, um, to be more inclusive, workplace.
And I know I've been on the Athena Swana long time ago and then came back to it.

(28:18):
Um, so we have, I'm lookingfor inspiration in this,
um, in this area here.
Yeah.

Geri (28:27):
I want to come back to that.
, um,
you also talked about, in this spiritof there's the ideal of how we might want
to show up and the reality of just beinghuman and maybe having good and bad days.
And you also talked about pastexperiences, say with a colleague

(28:49):
who pulled up the ladder and,and also the ways in which you
learn from your own experiences.
Maybe people aren't familiar withthe pulling up the ladder to phrase.
So it could be interestingjust to unpack that.
And I'm just curious about, you know,in terms of the pulling up the ladder
and other experiences, what are some ofthe behaviors that you've experienced

(29:11):
that you won't do, like, or the evenmistakes you've made that you're
trying not to do, because I thinkthere are learning points as well.

Matt (29:20):
Yeah.
I can start with the pulling up theladder example, by which I mean, once
someone has got onto the lifeboat or ontothe ship, they can pull up the ladder
behind them and no one else can follow.
Right.
So once they're okay,then they don't care.
They, they almost put a barrier up.
Um, and so, um, Some of thebest bosses I've had have, for

(29:43):
example, been supportive of myteaching ambitions, for example.
When I was working as a systemsdeveloper, I had a great boss who
knew, who understood that to get thebest out of someone, allowing them
to do at least some of what theywant to do is probably a good idea.
Uh, and they went to great lengthsto make sure that I could do that.
They also allowed me to embark on aPhD while I was working full time,

(30:05):
which was great because You know, oneof the perks of being working at a
university, I guess, is that you canenroll in a PhD and not have to pay
fees, which was quite nice, right?
Um,

Geri (30:15):
are, just to clarify, you are a software developer within the university?

Matt (30:20):
that's right, yeah, for research projects, but um, I was also teaching on,
on the side, um, just because I wanted to.
And then when it became clear that Iwouldn't be able to advance that aspect
aspect of my career teaching withouta PhD, um, I asked if I could start
doing one and, It was focused on gamebased learning for higher education.

(30:41):
So, um, again, it's learning, right?
Again, you can see theinterest in learning there.
So that boss was great.
Then I had another boss at another time.
Who, we would probably call themmicroaggressions now, I would say, but
was when they came in, they really didn'tlike the group I was part of, I wasn't

(31:01):
the lead of it by any means, but they madeit very clear that we weren't wanted and
gradually people would leave or be pushed.
And, all of us are still thinking aboutthat every time that group of friends meet
up, you know, 10 years later, we endedup just talking about this person again.
Right.
And it's really scarredsome people, I think.

(31:23):
So, yeah, I need to be careful what Isay, of course, but, uh, I can feel Oana
tensing, thinking, what's he gonna say?
Um, so that's the personthat told me I needed a PhD.
I later found out that theydidn't have a PhD, right?
But they had got in and becameprofessor, and that's what I meant
about the, the rolling up the ladder.

(31:43):
They were finding ways to say no,rather than finding ways to say yes,
which is what the other boss was doing.
They were finding ways ofsaying yes, within reason.
This person was expending energy onsaying no, if you know what I mean.
They were finding ways to say no.
Um, and so that'ssomething I've picked up.
I think I want to try and finda way of saying yes to things.

(32:04):
The danger is saying yes to things thatyou can't do support or can't make happen.
That's, I need to be careful about that.
But, um, saying yes as muchas possible is a big plus.
One of the things that happened duringthat period was that this person, we
were, we were being mistreated, right?
Um,

(32:26):
and I, I reported, I came and I wentand spoke to someone senior about that.
Um, and I used the bullying word.
This is where it gets a little bitiffy, but we can always cut it, right?
Um, and the response I got, Istill remember this from the,
from the senior person I spoketo, was a sort of slight smirk.

(32:48):
Um, a sort of patronizing smirk at saying,Oh, but bullying's a very big word.
Like, yes, I know.
Uh, look, I'm quite upset.
I'm visibly upset.
I'm a grown man sitting here,quite upset in your office.
Do you think I'm making,using that word lightly?
Do you think I don't understand?
Um, and that has never left me.

(33:11):
So I think that as

Geri (33:12):
What that, that response,

Matt (33:14):
that response, that Yeah,

Geri (33:17):
was it a skeptical, not believing, like how do you

Matt (33:22):
I think it was,

Geri (33:24):
interpret where they were coming from?

Matt (33:26):
think it was skeptical and dismissive, I think partly because they
just didn't, maybe they didn't believe me.
That's one thing.
Or maybe they thought I wasbeing silly or overreacting.

Oana (33:38):
You know what gaslighting is?

Matt (33:39):
Gaslighting, yeah, that'll come up again, I think.
But yes, maybe sort of gaslighting.
There's also maybe the possibilitythat it would have been a massive
inconvenience for them if this othersenior person I was talking about Was was
behaving this way, and they were right.
So nothing happened with that.
It was dismissed out of hand.
Um, I think there are systems inplace, certainly this university now

(34:03):
where I could have dealt with thatthrough other channels, you know, so,
um, and this happened another timewith another boss where a colleague.
I observed another colleague,you know, essentially bullying or
certainly mistreating other colleagues.
And one of those other colleagues,one of my peers, just confided in me
one day how it was making them feel.

(34:25):
And so I felt obliged to takethat up with with the boss
and, um, nothing ever happened.
If anything, the person who wasbehaving badly was probably, you know,
exalted in more ways, you know, andthat's my perception on it, right?
There'll be different perceptions.
It's all subjective.

(34:45):
That was how I perceived that, howthat played out, that what I had
brought to the table did not fit.
what the person wanted to hear andtherefore it was swept under the carpet.
It has fundamentally changed myrelationship with both the person
who was behaving poorly and theperson to whom I reported it.
Um, I have no respect for eitherof them to some degree, or I have

(35:10):
little respect for either of them.
If I find myself in that position wheresomeone on the team was to come to me,
someone visibly upset, someone who'smaybe even sticking their neck out by
I'm saying, bringing this difficulttopic to my attention, if I don't at
least respond to that, I have failed.
You know, at the very least thatperson should go away knowing that

(35:31):
I've listened and I will consider it.
To dismiss that stuff outof hand is not acceptable.

Geri (35:39):
No.

Matt (35:40):
So that's, that's something I've learned from a negative experience or two.
So I would, I would certainlyhope I don't end up like that.

Geri (35:48):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Oana, do you have anything to add orto say from your own experiences or
just reflecting on the, what Matt said?

Oana (35:59):
So this is to show again that in universities.
There's a wide spectrum of experiencesand can only hope that it's going
to get better and people stand upfor themselves, for the others.
So we have this term bystander, activebystander now, so don't let things

(36:20):
um, slip away for fear of, you know,um, having repercussions on yourself.
Um, so yeah, standing upfor for one another as well.

Geri (36:32):
And as you said, there are, there are changes happening where you said
there are mechanisms now to reportthat and hope to have it taken more

Oana (36:40):
so.
I hope so.

Geri (36:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Again, just illustrative of
care in our relationships and notunderestimating the huge impact a small
action can have, positive or negative.
And the fact that you all stilltalk about it years, years later,

(37:03):
when you meet up says a lot.
Yeah.
So what sort of colleague dowe want to be for each other?
How do we want people to talk about us?

. Matt (37:15):
I think that there's something about, something that Oana brought
up to me before and she's broughtup today is that sense of belonging.
And it's so easy for us to destroy orat least damage that sense of belonging,
um, in ways that we don't intend.
Um, so I think that's really importantfor people to feel like they do belong.

(37:37):
I understand that.
It's part of that, psychologicalsafety and everything that
we talked about before.
But, um, there, there are thingsthat leaders can do that can
end up inadvertently damagingthat sense of, of belonging.
Um, again, speaking from experience inthe past, I remember having a leader, a

(37:57):
boss who kind of positioned themselvesbetween the higher ups and what the
team was doing and was maybe noteven consciously taking, essentially
taking credit for what you were doing.
So it felt like, and I don't think itwas intentional actually, really, if
I'm honest, but unless you reflect onthat and realize that that's how it's

(38:19):
being perceived, that this looks likeit's all your work, then that's going to
damage other people's sense of belonging.
They're going to feel like, well,what's the point in me doing this work?
What if no one knowsI'm contributing to it?
So you feel a little bitdisconnected from that.
Um, the other thing is a little bit moresubtle, I think, and it's this idea of

(38:41):
the perception of having a favorite.
Um, you know, I remember my line managerin one instance was kind of the boss's,
the head of department's favorite, right?
And that person did not wantto change that relationship.
So they didn't, sorry, my immediate linemanager didn't want to rock the boat, as
it were, or make themselves unpopular withthis person who thought they were amazing.

(39:05):
So that resulted in quite aspineless approach to management.
They, they would never advocate forthe team to the higher up because
they didn't want to cause trouble.
They just wanted to, you know, toenjoy their position of, of, of favor.
So that's something to watch out for.
But also, and this is, thisis where I have failed.
I haven't told Oana this,unless she's seen my notes.

(39:27):
But, um, A member of the team didsay to me that they were jealous of
how I treated Oana and, and others.
Um, that they perceived it asa little bit of favoritism.
Now, I was able to address that andexplain it's because we work so closely
on the program together that naturallywe're going to be working more closely
together than Someone who we don'teven teach the same courses, right?

(39:50):
So I was able to address it, but it was awake up call to me about how things can be
perceived Because that person immediatelythen feels a little bit more distant.
It damages that sense of belongingAnd I think that if I if they hadn't
mentioned that to me I don't thinkas reflective as I think I am I don't
think I would have picked up on thatSo, um, that's an interesting one.

(40:12):
It's easy to, it's easy to fix some thingsand think, well, I won't be like that,
but there's stuff happening that is sosubjective that I just don't know how, how
to address it before it becomes a problem.

Geri (40:24):
Yeah.
Part of it is what you've done alreadythough, isn't it, Matt, in creating
an environment where people feellike they belong, feel like you're
open and are able to bring it up.

Matt (40:40):
Yeah, that's true.
I at least they did admit to it.
Yes that I say that's good And I'm gladthey told me because it gave me a chance
to to you know Give my point of view andexplain why that might be the perception.
Yeah.

Geri (40:52):
Yeah.
Because as you said, wedon't often know how.
What other people are going through,because they're human as well, and they're
filtering their experiences through theirown background insecurities, past bosses,
um, yeah, there's lots, lots going on.
So yeah, it sounds like thatfoundation of a good, open,

(41:16):
supportive group is key for that.

Matt (41:19):
Yeah.
Yeah

Geri (41:23):
Can I come back to what you said, Matt, about your
mental health isn't always great?
And Oana, you said in your email tome about having previously during your
post doc phase experienced burnout.
Can you both talk a little bitmore about those sorts of issues

(41:48):
I'll pick up on this question whenI start off again in part two,
which will be out in two weeks time.
Apart from talking about their experienceswith burnout and depression, we'll
also be talking about their work aspart of the learning, teaching and
scholarship track, and their interestinginnovative apprenticeship degree program.

(42:15):
And there are lots of themes aroundaccess and inclusion there, as
well as allyship and mentorship.
So there's so much moreto come in part two.
You can find the summarynotes, a transcript and related
links for this podcast on www.

(42:36):
changingacademiclife.
com.
You can also subscribe toChanging Academic Life on iTunes,
Spotify and Google Podcasts.
And I'm really hoping that we canwiden the conversation about how
we can do academia differently.
And you can contribute to this by ratingthe podcast and also giving feedback.
And if something connected withyou, please consider sharing this

(42:58):
podcast with your colleagues.
Together, we can make change happen.
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