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February 26, 2025 46 mins

This is Part 2 of my discussion with Matthew Barr and Oana Andrei who work together in the Education and Practice Section in the School of Computing Science at the University of Glasgow. Oana and Matt each share their personal experiences with mental health challenges. Oana shares her journey from postdoctoral research to becoming a lecturer, highlighting how she dealt with burnout by taking up Taekwondo. Matthew discusses his long-term management of depression and the importance of normalizing such conversations in academic settings. We also talk about their learning, teaching and scholarship career paths, the significance of reflective practice and how it has been integrated into their teaching methods. They also discuss their commitment to inclusion and diversity in education, alongside their passion for teaching and the innovative graduate apprenticeship degree program they have implemented that widens access by enabling work-based learning and student support. The episode offers valuable insights into the importance of personal wellbeing, the role of supportive workplace environments, and what a teaching-focussed path can involve.

Overview

00:29 Episode Introduction

02:00 Picking up on the question about mental health

02:46 Oana Shares Her Experiences With Burnout

08:05 Matt Shares His Experiences With Depression

12:45 Choosing Teaching Focussed Career Paths

16:36 Oana Moving From Research To Teaching Track

19:06 Promotion Criteria in a Learning, Teaching and Scholarship Track

24:14 Apprenticeship Degree Program

31:50 Doing a Master in Education

34:39 A Framework for Reflection

38:52 Wrapping Up

39:18 Revisiting Belonging

44:09 Thanks For The Podcast

46:27 End

Related Links

Oana Andrei, Lecturer (Ass Prof) Uni of Glasgow  webpage and LinkedIn profile 

Matthew Barr (Senior Lecturer) Uni of Glasgow webpage and LinkedIn profile

The reflective writing resources Matt mentioned:


Their paper on how the apprenticeship degree program might widen access to HE:

  • M. Barr, O. Andrei and M. Kallia, "Widening Access to Higher Education through Degree-level Apprenticeships in Software Engineering," 2023 IEEE Frontiers in Education Conference (FIE), College Station, TX, USA, 2023, pp. 1-8, doi: 10.1109/FIE58773.2023.10343199.

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Geri (00:05):
Welcome to Changing Academic Life.
I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this isa podcast series where academics and
others share their stories, provideideas, and provoke discussions about what
we can do individually and collectivelyto change academic life for the better.

(00:29):
Welcome to part two of my conversationwith Oana Ondrei and Matthew
Barr from Glasgow University.
In part one, we heard about whatgood leadership with care really
looks like, recognizing that everyoneis human and creating a sense of
belonging through everyday practices.

(00:50):
In part two here, we pick upon the being human theme and
the question of mental health.
Oana talks about how she dealt with herown burnout and Taekwondo figures in this.
And Matt shares his experiencesdealing with his long term depression.

(01:11):
We then shift to exploring their learning,teaching and scholarship career path.
How they got into this path,and how they go about navigating
criteria for promotion and so on.
And they discuss their reallystrong commitment to inclusion and
diversity in education alongsidetheir passion for teaching.

(01:32):
And we hear about their InnovativeGraduate Apprenticeship Degree
Program that widens access byenabling workplace learning.
It's a great conversation, and I reallylove the mutual respect and camaraderie
that we can hear as they talk together.

(01:52):
These are good colleagues.
I hope you enjoy this part too.
Can I come back to what yousaid, Matt, about your mental
health isn't always great?
And Oana, you said in your email tome about having previously during your

(02:14):
post doc phase experienced burnout.
Can you both talk a little bit more aboutthose sorts of issues and experiences?
Because I think we often don't normalisethem enough as These can be part of our,
like, everyday challenges dealing withmental health or when we are in, you

(02:37):
know, like, I'd be curious what werethe factors, Oana, that you thought
contributed to the burnout experience?

Oana (02:46):
So I had like two different experience.
First was the burnout before being alecturer and that was me being, um,
postdoctoral researcher being on atemporary contract really with a young
child and also being a young, like havinga young child being stressful enough.
And at some point it just like,added up and just blew out really.

(03:08):
And afterwards have being a lecturerbecause it was during the pandemic,
the stress of trying to do my bestupholding myself to very high standards

Geri (03:20):
Uh, Um,

Oana (03:20):
top of the pandemic lockdown.
Um, I, my son was, how was he?
Was like six, seven years old that time.
So homeschooling and everything else.
I was like every term, I wouldlike going through a bit of a
burnout, kind of like gradually.
Getting better at identifying whenI'm gonna burn out, not making

(03:43):
it less impactful, but still, um,yeah, I'm getting better at it now.
Uh, it's a sad story really to be gettingbetter at dealing with a burnout, but,
um, yeah, we keep learning and I thinkin the end I'm a better person because
of all this hardship I've been through

Geri (04:03):
Mm.

Oana (04:04):
as a parent, as a, as a person really, and also as
a, as a, um, educator here,

Geri (04:10):
Mm.

Oana (04:10):
to help our students when they're going through difficult times as well.

Geri (04:17):
What skills and techniques have you developed to help
you deal with it a bit more?

Oana (04:26):
So first of all is that I have to take care of myself, like
taking breaks and doing exercise.
So one fun story is like, I picked upwhen I was at my lowest point, um, as a,
back in 2018, um, My son was going, hewas five, he was taking Taekwondo classes,

(04:49):
and I was on the side, and the instructorsaid, Oh, would you like to, to try,
like, parents are welcome to, to join,and he's like, Oh, I don't know, maybe.
I went home, I searched,what is Taekwondo good for?
Obviously, I'm a researcher, I have toanalyze everything, is it good for sons?
I was, like, really at a bad point then.
Uh, so, okay, I was like, Whatever.
I'm gonna go for it.

(05:10):
There's no expectation whatsoeverfrom me, not like in the workplace.
So I just went for it.
And obviously, like a yeartime I went to a competition.
I said, Okay, I'll justgo for a competition.
It was in Glasgow andinternational competition.
I said, I've never I'venot a sporty person.
I've not been in the when Iwas young, and I went for it.

(05:32):
Just trying this stuff andnew things and Finding this.
Yes.
And I got the gold medal in sparring.

Geri (05:39):
Good on you.
Congratulations.

Oana (05:42):
It was in my age category and weight.
So, uh, it's been interesting.
And then went on and, um, again withthe pandemic and everything, I had to
slow down maybe with some training, butlast year in the summer, I got my black
belt, like first degree black belt, whichwas really stressful to go in there.

(06:02):
Um, but yeah, I've, uh, I've workedhard for that one and got some more
confidence in me trying new things.
And also my body as well, like,you know, certain age now,

Geri (06:14):
Mm.
And I can see you beamingthere as you talk about this.

Oana (06:19):
I'm proud of it.
Yeah.

Geri (06:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And was it something youdiscussed in the workplace?
So for the pandemic situation,you're already working with Matt.
Was that something you couldcome to the team and say, this
is what I'm going through?
How did you handle that aspect?

Oana (06:37):
Yeah, so at that time I was working as, uh, within the program and, uh,
graduate apprenticeship program, but
I wasn't as confident back then tocommunicate what I was going through.
Maybe a posteriori, I would have, Iwould say to my line manager and maybe
to Matt as well, like, yeah, like Ineed some, um, well, I could not take

(06:59):
time off because it was so intensive.
I could only like takeone day or something.
Just reducing maybe whatever Iwas doing and just doing the, uh,
bare minimum for some periods oftime to get my, my teaching really
done and all the admin work.
Um, but nothing going like furtherpublications, research or anything else.

(07:25):
But increasingly, I felt moreconfident as I, as I got more
familiar with the workplaceenvironment and the expectations.
And then, as I was saying,getting this sense of belonging,
longer sense in the, in the group.
Maybe a year after, I think Iremember I've I feel more confident

(07:46):
and more comfortable, really,

Geri (07:48):
hmm.

Oana (07:48):
more comfortable, speaking up and saying what works, what
doesn't for me or for the, for theprogram and the teaching, yeah.

Geri (07:58):
Yeah, lovely.

Oana (08:01):
And now I can say whatever I want.

Matt (08:04):
Yeah,

Geri (08:05):
And Matt, what about your own experiences?

Matt (08:10):
Yeah, I, I totally agree that we should be normalizing this, so I don't
mind talking about it, uh, in a sense,but you know, I've been medicated for
depression for, I just realized, 25 years,because, it was around about 2000 when
I was finishing my undergrad that itstarted, um, which may not have helped
me with the old undergrad, maybe thatwas my, uh, You know, um, I was doing a

(08:33):
bit of self medicating, as it were, youknow, at the time, but, um, it means that
I'm very conscious of the fact when I,it's, you know, it's depression, right?
So, if I hit a low,put it this way, right?
Um, work and interaction withpeople can take quite a toll.
you know, because you're putting on afront and I kind of joke to Oana that

(08:56):
I act a lot of the time and I do justgenerally I act as a competent academic,
you know, that, that's the role I play,but, uh, but in more, more sort of, um,
interactionally it's, I will put on agood face, make stupid jokes, try and
keep that consistent, that appearance.
But every so often you just,there's nothing left in the tank.

(09:19):
to put up that facade, you know, likewhen an actor's come off stage and they're
just broken, I'm like, I can't do that.
And that's when the mask slips.
And, you know, I might say somethingsnippy or the kind of thing that,
you know, I would have to own later.
And I noticed sometimes when I would gethome after work, because I would, I'd be

(09:39):
quite grumpy because I had, I had spent myenergy for the day on being nice, right?
Yeah,

Geri (09:46):
The work face.

Matt (09:47):
exactly.
Yeah.
And that is exhausting.
And I think on top of teaching,which again, to my mind is something
of a performance, you can be reallytired at the end of the day if
you've taught for a couple of hours.

Oana (09:59):
Definitely.
Yeah.

Matt (10:00):
And in the intervening period been pretending to be this, you know,
together, friendly, helpful person.
Right.
So by the end of the day, youcan be pretty, pretty drained.
So I need to be mindful of that inmy interactions with others, but
also mindful that they could also be.
in that situation, right?

(10:22):
Um, and that's why I really appreciatewhen someone like Oana is open and
honest with me now that I think it'sgreat that we have that kind of a
relationship because then, well, wecan kind of help each other be aware of
each other, you know, so I think that's

Geri (10:35):
Mm hmm.
Mm.
What do you do to look afteryourself, especially when the
energy tank is on empty or low?

Matt (10:48):
Yeah, I just got a glare from Oana there.
Um, apparently not enough.
Um,

Geri (10:53):
Mm.
Mm.
Mm.

Matt (10:54):
It is something I struggle with a little bit.
Um,
I don't know.
I think part of, part of the issue, andthis is going to sound really grim, I
realized, but you know, if you've beentreated for depression for, for so
long, you don't really enjoy anything.
Right?
So that sounds more grimthan I meant it to be.

(11:15):
What I think,
um, having a break from people, if I'mhonest, is sometimes just the best thing
I can do just to recharge the tank.
You know, I think that's, that's probablythe kindest thing I can do for myself.
And there were a couple of times,like when I was finishing my
PhD, you know, I was working fulltime as well as doing the PhD.

(11:37):
So, I would use that as an excuseto, well, for my birthday this year,
can I get a couple of nights in ahotel by myself so I and write up?
And, yes, I did write up.
I mean, that was, itwas, it was brilliant.
I, you know, that'sgreat, but also probably.
Thinking about it, I was justgetting a break from people.
Um, so I still quite like that idea.

(11:59):
I'm quite comfortable withmy own company, frankly.
I mean, I'm a bit of a, I wasgoing to use a bad word there.
I'm not a person I would want to hang outwith probably, but I'm fine on my own.
You know, um, so I think that's, that'sthe kindest thing I can do for myself.
I quite like doing work.
If I do take annual leave, I mightactually own work in a paper or something,
but that's fine because it's on my terms.

(12:21):
Um.
If that makes sense.
So that's the kindest thing I think.

Geri (12:25):
Mm.
Yeah.

Matt (12:27):
Okay.
I'm looking to Oana for approval.

Geri (12:34):
I like the look at the beginning about you're not doing enough.
Um,
to have it taken more seriously.

Oana (12:42):
So.
I hope so.

Geri (12:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I move us on, because I'm really curiousabout both of you choosing teaching and
learning focused career paths because inmany institutions, it's research that's,
that is sort of the gold standard andvalorized and you indicated Matt that

(13:05):
when you were going for promotion, itwas a harder route and it's clear from
both of you The passion that you havefor teaching and for the students
and, what made you choose that path?
What is it about it that you love?

Matt (13:26):
I think it took me a while to realize this, but I've always
enjoyed the teaching and there'ssomething about it's rewarding.
It's potentially, if it'snot too grand a thing to say,
it's changing people's lives.
So the reasons I've kind of touchedon, you know, that The good feedback
I've had or just having a goodteacher who clearly cares that

(13:46):
that can make all the difference.
So I think I was thinking back to this andactually the first time I taught was so I
barely scraped a degree first time around.
It was actually in geology.
Um, it's pretty random.
Um, I was mostly just drinkingand trying to date all the
girls in the class at the time.
So, I was not a good student.

(14:07):
But even then, there were a coupleof lecturers, I should say, who, I
mean, I wouldn't have tolerated me.
But they not only toleratedme, but tried to help.
You know, they were fantastic.
Um, uh, Tim Dempster, GordonCurrie, people like that.
Ian Allison, I doubt they're listening.
But if they are, you know,they were the people who have
stuck with me 25 years later.

(14:29):
However After that, Ididn't use my degree.
I went into IT support.
And, um, in my final year atuni, I was working in the library
here at, uh, doing IT support.
And I remember my girlfriend atthe time was, I could see her
out studying for our finals.
And I was sitting, working,doing my IT support job.

(14:49):
Tells you that it gives you aclue as to how that panned out.
Um, so anyway, I wentinto an IT support role.
But in a higher education institution.
And I very quickly, almost immediatelysaw an opportunity to teach.
Um, this was maybe 2000, 2001,something like that, probably 2001.
So it was before we had like Facebookand stuff like that, where people,

(15:12):
if they wanted to be an aspiringmusician, for example, a musician for
hire, they would have a Facebook page.
And it was a, it was a collegeof, or a university of, of
musicians and actors, right?
So it was, that was the line of work.
So I developed a little course, um,to teach those people how to make a
simple webpage, to promote themselves,get found in, in, was Google there?

(15:34):
I think Google had just started,but get found online, right?
And so they could, they could get work.
Um, and that was at the time wassomewhat novel, but that was That was
the first time I realized, actually,this is what I want to be doing.
I don't really care about buildingthe websites myself, right?
I'm more interested in,in, in the teaching.
And again, that only happenedbecause I had a supportive boss.

(15:55):
Like, you know, the head of IT supportwas very comfortable with, or very, um,
uh, friendly with the head of, um, financeor whatever it was for the institution.
And they managed to set it upthat I could do this, right?
They had the, the.
They created that opportunity.
So that was an early example of merealizing that I wanted to teach
and I think I just find it muchmore rewarding than the actual, what

(16:20):
in my case would be programming, Iguess, is the actual, actual work.

Geri (16:25):
And Oana, you were in research projects for a long time, as
you said, in the formal methods.
What was the trigger for youswitching to more of a teaching track?

Oana (16:36):
Yes.
Well, initially I startedteaching in Romania.
I was a, I had a tenuredposition there, um, back in 2004.
Yeah, it was February, 2004.
I was on research and teaching,basically, but then I went away to
France to do a PhD and then, yes, I'vebeen doing research for a long time,

(16:59):
but still I was looking for a lecturerposition, well, initially in France.
That's why I came here to get experienceabroad, to go back to France to
have a good, a better application.
To apply for a, for a job , inteaching in universities in, in France.
And then, yes, I've been doingresearch for a long time.

(17:20):
I think in a way it was convenientfor me as well, having a young child.
And I enjoyed the, the research I wasdoing, but still, I was looking for.
Um, jobs around here didn't particularlywanted to move and I've liked the
environment here at the University ofGlasgow and when in 2018, this opportunity

(17:45):
came, I've applied for different jobsunsuccessfully and then this opportunity
came for, um, what is called an LTSrole, learning, teaching and scholarship.
Which was relatively new back then.
So it's not just teaching, but it'salso scholarship, which basically I see
it as research in computing education.

(18:06):
I said, I enjoy that.
And I think my experience also as a momreally and as you say role model and
trying to teach my son lots of differentthings made me more interested in this
aspect of education or how people learnand I say yeah I'm gonna go for it

(18:27):
and that's how I've um landed the jobthis job and I'm still doing research.
I'm still doing someformal methods research.
I have a PhD student on it, onthis topic, but mostly it's on
computing education, uh, research.
So it's um, and I don't havethe stress of having to apply

(18:48):
for funding, research funding.
So that's, uh, that's good.

Geri (18:53):
That's a good thing.
Indeed.
So what, you've, you said you've got amatrix, a rubric for promotion criteria.
What sort of things are youaiming for to meet those criteria?

Oana (19:06):
Um,

Matt (19:10):
We can break it down into the sections of the, there's the esteem.

Oana (19:14):
Yes.
So the last one is the esteem.
Then there's, um,

Matt (19:17):
impact,

Oana (19:18):
impact.
Teaching and knowledge exchange, andthat's knowledge exchange and impact.
So I think the teachingpart has the most weight.

Geri (19:33):
Hmm.

Oana (19:35):
Which I'm struggling a little bit, as Matt was saying.
Like, I'm doing my job here.
Presumably well enough, but I'mnot developing like new programs.
I'm not doing amazing stuff,and that's where I'm a bit,
um, stressed about, let's say.
Uh, there's more expectation of being

(19:57):
very much involved in designing newlearning programs, new experiences or
whatnot, um, activities for students.
Um, and I've, I've only, well, maybetwo years ago started to get my head
above the water and be able to thinkmore broadly about these aspects.

(20:19):
My first, I was just like trying to learnhow everything works and doing my, my job.

Geri (20:25):
Yeah.
What is covered in impactwithin a teaching track?

Matt (20:31):
Yeah.
I mean, some of it's not dissimilarto impact on the research track, but
it's, it's maybe a little bit more aboutbeing outward facing doing engagement.
Um, so probably I mentioned theAda Scotland Festival that I run.
That's something that I wouldprobably claim under there because
it's reaching kids nationally, youknow, and it's involving lots of

(20:56):
external partners, sponsors andbusinesses and so on that are involved.
Um, in an ideal world, I have.
We have, we have one colleaguewho is publishing stuff that
is being picked up by teachers.
So, they're actually on the moretraditional research and teaching
track, but it's a perfect example ofhow pedagogy, pedagogical research can

(21:17):
have impact because the stuff that sheis designing is being picked up and
trialed by teachers in the classroom.
So that, that's a really niceexample of impact in our world.
But it doesn't have to be necessarilyYou know, four star research resulting
in industry take up, you know,it can be a little bit different.

(21:37):
So, um, it's tricky.
Again, it's one of those thingsthat's maybe less well understood in
our in on our particular job track.
Um, and I think Oana is being self selfdeprecating in terms of, you know, she is.
She's deputy directorof our program, right?
So she is doing the leadershipstuff, which is a big part of

(21:59):
the promotion criteria, right?
There you go.
Yeah.
You pull, you're doing the job.
Um,

Geri (22:04):
I'm pulling a face here to go, duh.

Matt (22:08):
yeah.
Yeah.
Um, somebody got a recognitionand rewards, uh, last year because
somebody was doing a reallygood job, you know, uh, yeah.
So

Oana (22:21):
I almost forgot that.
I remember last year I was, breakingdown at some point because I could not do
something and then oh my god and then Iadmitted to Matt and said, Oh, remember,
he said, Oh, I completely forgot this.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, okay.

Matt (22:35):
Yes.

Geri (22:36):
you needed that mirror again.

Matt (22:38):
Yes.
And there was there was irrefutableevidence that had gone to our head
of school, was signed off by probablythe head of college or whatever
said, yeah, this person can get therecognition and reward this year,
right, because they're doing a good job.
So um, yeah, that's the kind of evidencewe can put forward for promotion, right?

Geri (22:55):
It's great.
You've got a line manager boss whocan help remind you of all of the
evidence that you actually have.

Matt (23:04):
you help me with mine too?

Geri (23:08):
And so there are two areas that we could go in and whether
we cover both or one or the other.
So one is in focusing, having thisteaching focus track and having
this education and practice section,which is like formally saying this
is important in our school in,are there any particular teaching

(23:32):
innovations that you'd want to share?
And I noticed that you just had a book,for example, published on web based, uh,
work based learning in higher education.
And the other aspect, andthey may connect, is you both
clearly have a passion for.
Inclusion and diversity and Matt, you'rean amazing ally for a lot of these

(23:56):
gender based and inclusion initiatives.
And Oana, you have talked aboutbeing committed to these initiatives
in the past and in ongoingly.
So something around theteaching innovations and
the whole inclusion at work.

Matt (24:14):
Sure.
Yes.
One of the reasons I moved to computingscience from, from my previous
subject where I had the not so greatboss was the opportunity to work on
this apprenticeship program becauseit looked like an opportunity to
improve access to higher education,to improve inclusion, if you like.

(24:35):
Um, cause that's what I'd readabout apprenticeships because if
people aren't familiar with it.
You're doing your degree.
You will still get your degreein software engineering from
the university, but you're alsoworking and therefore getting paid.

Geri (24:47):
Ah, okay.

Matt (24:49):
Yeah, so that immediately removes or at least ameliorates a
sort of financial barrier for people.
Right?
So, and it also gives them a legup in terms of their career because
they're graduating with four yearswork experience as well as the degree.
Um, so that was what actually attractedme to do it in the first place.

(25:10):
And, It's not necessarily the focusfor our school, so we can take school
leavers with the highest possible gradescoming out of school, right, because
supply and demand, we don't need to bewidening access, right, as a school into
our subject area, because computing iscompetitive, um, and we can take the

(25:31):
straight A students, but that means thatall of our students are kind of quite
similar coming from particular backgroundsand it's not particularly inclusive
in some respects, in some respects.
Um, so the apprenticeship is kind ofalmost a way of improving access by
stealth because, um, we negotiated tohave a slightly lower entry tariff.

(25:54):
So the grades you have toget to get onto our program.
Are a little bit lower than theregular program, and the way that
I present that is, oh, it's sothat I can meet employers halfway.
If they see potential in someone,then they only have four B's, you
know, when the tariff is five A'sor something, then I can say yes.
But it's more than that, right?

(26:15):
It's also so we can get those peoplewho clearly have talents, clearly
have ability, but for whateverreason, which may not be anything
to do with their academic ability,have B's instead of A's, you know?
So, we have actually done one paperon this, and we could do more, on
how the program has widened access.

(26:37):
Things that it has done is there arepeople who were kind of forced to
go to university or sort of pushedtowards university without any
advice or any kind of, you know, theydidn't, maybe they had poor advice
from school or they were forced intoa subject they didn't want to do.
Um, I had one.
There was one girl, one female studenton our first cohort of apprentices

(26:59):
who told their careers teacherthey were, they like computers.
So the advice was, OK, then youshould do admin at university.
Do a degree in admin.
Right.
So that's what they did because theydid what their teacher told them.
Um, but then years later, you know,in our late 20s, she comes back
to do the apprenticeship with us.

(27:20):
And that's only possiblebecause at that stage in life.
You have more bills, you haveresponsibilities, um, the only
way that she could do that was byhaving a paid job at the same time.
So a lot of the students that wehave on the apprenticeship, not, we
have a mixture, but certainly it'smore varied than the regular program.
Some of them have tried universitybefore, um, and it hasn't worked out.

(27:42):
Often it's because they've had tobalance another job in order to
pay to get them through universitybecause of their socioeconomic
background and their responsibilities.
So they've been working in a pub orworking in McDonald's and just it
ends up that they drop out of unibecause they can't balance both.
Now they can come back to usand do this degree with us

(28:03):
with that financial security.
So that's important.
I think that both of usthat the program can.
can support those people,attract those people.
Um, and it seems to be working.

Geri (28:15):
Brilliant.
Yeah.
Oana, do you want to add anythingand point out any other sort
of innovations in teaching

Oana (28:31):
So the way this program is designed is to have more competency
based learning, uh, embedded into somecourses, especially the work based.
assessment courses.
These are year long courses in thefinal years, in the senior years,
where students are taking projects intheir workplace, um, mainly supervised

(28:55):
by, uh, their line managers in theworkplace, but also they have like a
light touch supervision with academics,uh, from our program in the university.
And While they're doing their, carryingout the work on their projects,
they also have to set up a portfoliowhere they evidence the competencies

(29:17):
they've achieved during theirprojects or in the workplace, really.
So we have some, um, framework.
Of competencies based on the moregeneral engineering framework in the UK.
And in addition, they also have towrite a reflective essay on how they've,
um, when they really reflect on howthey've achieved this competency.

(29:41):
So that helps them.
really know better, know themselvesbetter, know what are their strengths,
what are their weaknesses, especiallyas they go from one year to another,
they have two reflective essays.
They know from one year, okay,I've done this, I've achieved that.
Next year, okay, I'm going to work towardsthese new competencies, competencies in

(30:02):
terms of, as we call them, knowledge plusskills and professional dispositions.
Um, so this is, no other course, I think,in computer science where students can
be so reflective of their learning.
So I think it's very useful, especiallyfor, um, future or like already software

(30:24):
engineer practitioners if they, whenthey go into the workplace to know
their strengths, if they want to applyfor further, um, accreditations, they
can easily put something together andyeah, just know themselves better.
I think this is, I was new tothis reflective practice when I

(30:45):
got into this role of learning,teaching and scholarship, and I
really like it and embraced it.
I'm not as good because I'm formal methodsperson, bullet points and formulas.
I'm getting better at, at, at it.
So still a

Geri (31:00):
But it's the thinking behind it, isn't it?
Not how it's expressed on paper, that'sjust sort of the external manifestation.
Do you want to say any moreabout that reflective journaling?
Because sounds like you'realso trying to apply it to
yourself and your own own role.
Is that what you're saying?

Oana (31:21):
Yes.
Because, well, in the end, I'm, um,
at the University of Glasgow and manyuniversities in UK, like all of them,
you have to, take, um, what is it called?
P Cap.
It's a postgraduate

Matt (31:37):
certificate.
Certificate

Oana (31:38):
in teaching practice.
Uh, so I, I did that when I started,um, because I wasn't doing enough in the
first year while it was mandatory anyway.
And then because of

Geri (31:49):
In the pandemic?

Oana (31:50):
in the pandemic and because of my role I had to do some two more
courses and then I said okay if I cando more to get a postgraduate diploma
in academic practice and where I hadto be yes more reflective in different
aspects and also being um carrying outeducational research and then I said
okay I'll just go for it all because Idon't pay for it so I'm gonna I'm doing

(32:13):
a master in education so now it's thefinal year dissertation that I'm doing
at the moment, which I'm a bit behind.
I have to admit it's,it's really funny to be.
So when I started, I was a lecturerand a student at the same time.
Um, well, funny in the sense thatit's just brings me down to earth.

(32:35):
Seeing, understanding whatstudents are going through.
I've asked for many extensions for mycoursework, uh, in the past few years.
And even now, like yesterday, I met withmy supervisor for Master in Education and
I was like, oh my God, I didn't do much.
Okay, I'm gonna work harderfrom the next few months.
And I say, yeah, thisis what my students say.
The same, you know, it, it's, it's funny.

(32:57):
But um, yeah.
Still learning.

Geri (33:01):
So you just mentioned that, as a by the way, that on top of your day
job, you're doing a master's program

Oana (33:07):
Yeah.

Geri (33:08):
in education.

Oana (33:10):
Yeah.
Well, I've got my black belt now.
I can,

Geri (33:12):
You've got your black belt.

Oana (33:14):
I can do.

Geri (33:15):
this is your black belt in education.

Oana (33:18):
I'm not going to do a PhD in education.
No, that's fine.
I think

Matt (33:26):
that's really interesting though, but you've reflected on the fact that your
students are going through the same thing.
What I find, I totally just do notunderstand is how all of our lecturers
have been through this process wherethey've had to do this course and
have had pieces of work to turn in.
And they've invariably.
Drop the ball on some of them, butthey can't seem to make the connection

(33:48):
between that and their studentscoming and asking for an extension.
So particularly for our apprentices,because they're juggling work
and university, I've asked all ofour colleagues if they ask for an
extension, just give it to them.
It's like you doing your postgraduatecertificate, you're balancing two
things, and yet they're both compulsory.
You have to do them both.
Um, and the disconnect that peopleseem to have in their heads, that,

(34:11):
well, that's not the same as me, that'ssomething different, this is a bad
student, it's like, well, no, they're,they're, we're no better, frankly.
I mean, academics and deadlines isa whole podcast in itself, right?
It's, it's, I just can't understand whypeople don't have that empathy or that
reflective capacity to realize thatthere's probably a good reason for this.

(34:34):
It's not just because they've been lazyor their time management has been bad.
The time management.
I've seen in some colleaguesis astonishingly bad, right?
So, um, yeah, I just thought itwas interesting that Oana there
has reflected on that Um, and, uh,
realize that, yes, it's the samefor our students, you know, so I'm a

(34:56):
big fan of the reflective practice.
And it is weird that we do that so much ina computing science degree on a software
engineering degree, but I literallyteach it in the first week of first year.
I give them a framework for reflectionbecause it doesn't come naturally to
students from, particularly from thatkind of mindset or background, I think.
And see it in colleagues as well, right?

(35:16):
It's, um, but I'm, I assess thesefellowship applications, um, associated
with learning and teaching practice.
And you can spot the ones that have comefrom the hard sciences or the computing
science versus those from the humanitiesbecause the folks in humanities are
much more used to writing like that.
Um, whereas, you know, one wouldn'texpect a formal methods person

(35:40):
necessarily to take to that as well.
So I think it's a really usefulskill for everyone to have.

Geri (35:47):
And that's interesting because I was actually going to bring that up.
I, I always ask for a reflective componentas part of the courses I've taught.
And it's always a struggle withcomputer scientists or people from the
computer science background to you.
Hmm.
Hmm.
argue the value.
So I'm really curious, couldyou share a little bit about

(36:09):
the framework for reflection?
Because it sounds like it's good forstudents and it's good for all of us.
It could be a useful framework.

Matt (36:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, um, I can provide alink to it, which might

Geri (36:21):
Oh, excellent.
Thank

Matt (36:23):
because I can't remember exactly where I got it from
off the top of my head.
But, um, basically it gives,it gives the students, first of
all, a kind of, uh, phrase bank.
a sort of set of vocabulary to use,which, um, you know, doesn't, as you
know, I, I quite like writing, I quitelike words, so I don't struggle with
that necessarily, and I'm, I can easilyreflect in my shortcomings, that comes

(36:46):
naturally as well, um, but having aphrase bank where they can literally
construct sentences and then plug inthe details, and then I, I see that
as the kind of, uh, what do you callthem, the Uh, the stabilizers on a bike.
Eventually that can come off.
It's like the scaffolding and that,you know, once they've practiced
that, they'll be able to come upwith those sentences themselves.

(37:07):
But there's also sort of different formsof reflection we can introduce them to.
Sort of looking back,but also looking forward.
And making sure that they canclose the loop and say, well, this
is what I've learned from this.
So next time I will do that.
So, I mean, I can rattle through it all inhalf an hour in class, but it gives them
the tools just to make it less daunting.

(37:28):
Like, there's nothing moredaunting to a computing scientist
to say, here's a blank page.
Now write me some reflections.

Geri (37:35):
Yeah, yeah.

Matt (37:36):
an algorithm, I suppose, you know, a formula that they can
apply and really get used to it.

Geri (37:43):
Do you still have a reflective, a written reflective practice, Matt?

Matt (37:48):
Do you know, I don't actually.
Um, probably the last time I did it was,well actually that's not entirely true.
Probably the last time I went forpromotion I had to do a little
reflective piece and I will have todo it again if I go for the Principal
Fellowship of the HCA or something.
So I will have to do it again but there'snothing systemic, there's nothing in

(38:11):
place where I have to do it really.
Um, which is interesting.
I hadn't thought of that.

Geri (38:15):
Yeah.
But, but you do also soundnaturally reflective, you know,
in all that you've talked about.

Matt (38:23):
Yes.
Yes.
I just don't write it down, I guess.

Oana (38:25):
When we have the, at least I know, when we have the annual reviews, the,
that, that's where some reflection,a lot of reflection has to go in
there, uh, to see what went well,what didn't, and where to improve.
You got feedback from students, thenyou have feedback from a line manager,

(38:46):
and you have to put it all together

Geri (38:48):
Mm.

Oana (38:49):
move on to the next year.

Geri (38:52):
Lovely.
I want to keep talking, butI know we're up against time.
Um, are there any things that youwanted to say here that we haven't
talked about yet, that you just want to.
mention in closing.

Matt (39:11):
Sure, yeah, I think.
No, I think we've pretty much covered it.

Geri (39:19):
A short interjection here.
You'll recognize this next part frompart one, and I took the liberty of
including it in part one because Ithought it actually, went to the theme of
leadership that Matt was talking about.
And I want to repeat it here becauseI just think it's so important

(39:42):
about that sense of belongingand what we can do to create it.
So over to Matt.

Matt (39:54):
No, I think we've pretty much covered it.
I think that there's somethingabout, something that Oana brought
up to me before and she's broughtup today is that sense of belonging.
And it's so easy for us to destroy orat least damage that sense of belonging,
um, in ways that we don't intend.
Um, so I think that's really importantfor people to feel like they do belong.

(40:18):
I understand that.
It's part of that, psychologicalsafety and everything that
we talked about before.
But, um, there, there are thingsthat leaders can do that can
end up inadvertently damagingthat sense of, of belonging.
Um, again, speaking from experience inthe past, I remember having a leader, a

(40:38):
boss who kind of positioned themselvesbetween the higher ups and what the
team was doing and was maybe noteven consciously taking, essentially
taking credit for what you were doing.
So it felt like, and I don't think itwas intentional actually, really, if
I'm honest, but unless you reflect onthat and realize that that's how it's

(41:00):
being perceived, that this looks likeit's all your work, then that's going to
damage other people's sense of belonging.
They're going to feel like, well,what's the point in me doing this work?
What if no one knowsI'm contributing to it?
So you feel a little bitdisconnected from that.
Um, the other thing is a little bit moresubtle, I think, and it's this idea of

(41:22):
the perception of having a favorite.
Um, you know, I remember my line managerin one instance was kind of the boss's,
the head of department's favorite, right?
And that person did not wantto change that relationship.
So they didn't, sorry, my immediate linemanager didn't want to rock the boat, as
it were, or make themselves unpopular withthis person who thought they were amazing.

(41:46):
So that resulted in quite aspineless approach to management.
They, they would never advocate forthe team to the higher up because
they didn't want to cause trouble.
They just wanted to, you know, toenjoy their position of, of, of favor.
So that's something to watch out for.
But also, and this is, thisis where I have failed.
I haven't told Oana this,unless she's seen my notes.

(42:09):
But, um, A member of the team didsay to me that they were jealous of
how I treated Oana and, and others.
Um, that they perceived it asa little bit of favoritism.
Now, I was able to address that andexplain it's because we work so closely
on the program together that naturallywe're going to be working more closely
together than Someone who we don'teven teach the same courses, right?

(42:31):
So I was able to address it, but it was awake up call to me about how things can be
perceived Because that person immediatelythen feels a little bit more distant.
It damages that sense of belongingAnd I think that if I if they hadn't
mentioned that to me I don't thinkas reflective as I think I am I don't
think I would have picked up on thatSo, um, that's an interesting one.

(42:53):
It's easy to, it's easy to fix some thingsand think, well, I won't be like that,
but there's stuff happening that is sosubjective that I just don't know how, how
to address it before it becomes a problem.

Geri (43:05):
Yeah.
Part of it is what you've done alreadythough, isn't it, Matt, in creating
an environment where people feellike they belong, feel like you're
open and are able to bring it up.

Matt (43:21):
Yeah, that's true.
I at least they did admit to it.
Yes that I say that's good And I'm gladthey told me because it gave me a chance
to to you know Give my point of view andexplain why that might be the perception.
Yeah.

Geri (43:33):
Yeah.
Because as you said, wedon't often know how.
What other people are going through,because they're human as well, and they're
filtering their experiences through theirown background insecurities, past bosses,
um, yeah, there's lots, lots going on.
So yeah, it sounds like thatfoundation of a good, open,

(43:57):
supportive group is key for that.

Matt (44:00):
Yeah.
Yeah

Geri (44:02):
Yeah.
Oana, anything in wrapping up?

Oana (44:09):
Just to say I love your podcast episode and it's been very helpful
along the years listening to yourdiscussions with all your invite.
Yeah invited people.
And, um, yeah, it's, uh, it's beena, it's been a journey learning
about, like I've started in 2016.

(44:30):
I was thinking, when did Istart listening to podcasts?
And I went back to this andit's like 2016, I had a few.
So yours, because I was workingwith HCI people, I think that's
how I found about your podcasts.
Uh, yours was the one aboutuniversities, people and culture,
university, academic life.
And then I had others with mentalhealth as I was going through my ages

(44:51):
and then, uh, self help podcasts andhealth and well being in general.
So these are like some corepodcasts I've been following and
been very helpful along the years.
In some cases, likeextremely helpful, really.
So thank you.
Thank you again for your work.

Geri (45:10):
Thank you.
Thank you, Oana.
That's lovely to hear.
And I'm so grateful to have had thisconversation that Oana, that you reached
out, to point, point me to Matt and thattogether you've just been such wonderful
guests and sharing, and this will bereally useful for lots of other listeners.

(45:33):
So thank you for beingpart of it, both of you.

Matt (45:36):
Thank you.
Thank you for having us.

Geri (45:42):
You can find the summary notes, a transcript and related
links for this podcast on www.
changingacademiclife.
com.
You can also subscribe toChanging Academic Life on iTunes,
Spotify and Google Podcasts.
And I'm really hoping that we canwiden the conversation about how
we can do academia differently.

(46:03):
And you can contribute to this by ratingthe podcast and also giving feedback.
And if something connected withyou, please consider sharing this
podcast with your colleagues.
Together, we can make change happen.
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