November 27, 2024 • 64 mins
Özge Subaşı is the Director of Futurewell: CoCreation and Wellbeing Group in the Media and Visual Arts Department at Koç University in Turkey. In this episode, Özge shares a journey from industrial design to interaction design, with a focus on diversity, inclusion, and justice. The work with visually impaired children and older people significantly influenced Özge's transition into human-centered design. Özge's story reflects a life of multiple relocations—whether moving schools as a child, transitioning disciplines, or navigating new countries and cultures. Özge describes “always coming from somewhere and not being in the system.”
The episode emphasizes the importance of holding true to core values, such as listening without prejudgment, fostering open communication, and caring for both the individual and the community. Özge's practical examples illustrate how these values influence research and teaching choices, as well as navigating trade-offs, particularly while completing an evaluation document. The discussion also addresses challenges with Özge's depression during the academic journey and strategies for maintaining personal wellbeing. Additionally, the episode highlights some difficulties faced by academics in Türkiye, including engaging with the international community and managing issues related to travel and visas.
Özge's commitment to personal values, to trying different ways of being an academic researcher, and to fostering an empathetic and inclusive work culture is really inspiring.
Overview
00:00 Intro
00:29 Episode Introduction
03:37 Introduction and Background
04:39 Early Career and Education
08:10 Transition to Interaction Design
11:50 Values and Philosophy
14:15 Challenges in Academia
18:07 Building a Collaborative Culture
26:37 Balancing Academic Expectations
34:42 Navigating Academic Trade-offs
36:04 Embracing Personal Values
38:36 Prioritizing Mental Health
42:26 Building Supportive Environments
47:00 Challenges in Academia
53:45 International Collaboration and Travel
01:02:22 Concluding Thoughts
01:04:36 End
Related Links:
Futurewell: CoCreation and Wellbeing Group, Media and Visual Arts Department, Koç University
Özge’s LinkedIn page
Özge on Instagram @allthefooldays (personal page on food & family) and @sozges on X
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Geri (00:05):
Welcome to Changing Academic Life.
I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick and this isa podcast series where academics and
others share their stories, provideideas and provoke discussions about what
we can do individually and collectivelyto change academic life for the better.
(00:31):
Do you ever think, you knowsomeone well, because you've worked
with them for a number of years.
Well, that's what I thought when Iinvited Özge Subaşı onto the podcast.
Özge and I worked together inVienna from about 2010 to 2018.
Özge is now in Istanbul inTurkey Or Türkiye in Turkish.
And is the director of 'Futurewell: co-creation and wellbeing' group (00:56):
undefined
in the media and visual artsdepartment at Koç University there.
I thought it would be really interestingto talk to Özge about the challenges
of trying to navigate academia andprofessional engagement, working
in a different cultural context.
(01:18):
And also with the particular traveland financial constraints in Turkey.
But the conversation endedup being so much more.
And I learned things aboutÖzge that I never knew.
Özge's story reflects a lifeof multiple relocations.
Whether moving schools as a child.
(01:41):
Or transitioning disciplines.
Or navigating new countries and cultures.
Özge describes this as"always coming from somewhere
and not being in the system".
Throughout all of this though Özgealso demonstrates a really strong
(02:01):
sense of personal core values.
And the importance ofholding true to them.
And they're values likelistening without pre-judgment.
Fostering open communication.
And bringing a deep care for theindividual, the community, the
environment, and so much more.
(02:25):
And Özge gives us lots of practicalexamples of how these values influence
research and teaching choices.
As well as navigating the trade-offs.
Particularly coming to the fore whilecompleting an evaluation document.
Özge also shares very openly aboutthe challenges dealing with depression
(02:50):
during the academic journey.
And strategies for maintainingpersonal wellbeing.
And we discussed the challengesfaced by academics in Turkey.
In particular, engaging withan international community.
And specific issues related tointernational travel and visas and how
(03:11):
students can be particularly impacted.
So I hope you find thisconversation as inspiring as I did.
In seeing Özge'scommitment to core values.
To trying different ways ofbeing an academic researcher.
And to fostering an empatheticand inclusive work culture.
(03:37):
Welcome Özge (Hi) And as fulldisclosure, we should just say that
we did work together a number ofyears ago, so know each other well.
And I just also had the pleasureof visiting with you in Turkey
. Can you set us up a little bit about your background?
Özge (03:59):
Yes, uh, I am Özge and I am working in the interaction design
area with, um, a lot of diversity,inclusion, and justice, topics.
And I have a background actually inthe arts, more in, in industrial
design, but more with artisticperspectives when people use design
(04:24):
to tell, , let's say artistic stories,and not necessarily to sell things.
This is where I started.
And, then I moved more andmore to the human perspectives,
and tried to combine it
Geri (04:39):
So what, how did that shift happen?
Because, you know, when CV, it'svery much industrial design for
your bachelor's and master's.
And.
Design anthropology for your PhD.
So that seems a shiftinto interaction design.
Özge (04:56):
Yes, actually, at the time I studied, like, back in the 90s,
I don't remember even the, theinteraction design word existed or not.
I remember, maybe, whowas it, in, in Atlanta, the
ubiquitous word came just true.
Um, it was, those times.
(05:16):
And I did have an interest inunderstanding people and how I can
bring it back to what I was tryingto do, but there was no space.
Just to give an example, in mybachelor's, I worked with blind and
visually impaired children for a termwhere I spent really two or three
days a week in a school with them.
(05:39):
And, uh, while it started truly to, tobuild something that is helpful for them,
like for their educational development.
It turned out that I was learningmore and more from them and I was
more and more inspired from them.
Um, but there was no space inmy education back at that time.
(06:00):
So I was doing some extra artisticcourses in my Bachelor, but the project
ended, uh, as a toy design for them
Geri (06:08):
mm
Özge (06:09):
But then I moved to, uh, to master's where I studied more of cultural
studies and design anthropology andstep by step and implemented them into
my work and started doing more andmore interventions were like, about
performance on the street or a smallexhibition on an unexpected space,
(06:33):
things like that to, to see how I canuse this design early skills to disrupt
a little bit of these prejudgments.
It all started moreorganically, basically.
Geri (06:44):
Yeah.
And you can also see the red threadsthat I can see today, like the fact
that in your bachelor's, the workwith the blind and visually impaired
students is something that seemed to.
I don't know, energize you or youfind important and when you introduce
yourself, you talked about diversity,inclusion, and justice, and Yeah.
(07:08):
They seem like really strongred threads through it all.
Özge (07:13):
Embarrassingly, the first time I, I was meeting with these
students, these children, they werelike seven to nine years old, maybe.
I was expecting to give themsomething, like, because they're
blind, they're visually impaired,and I can build something for them
so that they can enjoy, you know.
But then I realized that they weregossiping around things we are doing.
(07:35):
Like, you know, the other studentswork, actually it's too easy, but they
are just behaving as if it's fun.
Things like, and then I started to diveinto that world and understand that it's
more, you know, they are children first,and then they have these differences.
Geri (07:55):
Hmm.
Özge (07:56):
And their word built on, like, their language built on it.
Geri (07:59):
Hmm.
Well, that's interesting.
Özge (08:02):
So embarrassing, but good learning.
Geri (08:05):
good learning.
Yeah.
So after your PhD, you then worked indifferent projects, bringing more of
this designerly perspective and morefrom the interaction design contribution?
Özge (08:24):
Now, CVs, I need to give this, opinion here, maybe.
CVs are written in a certain waythat makes things look successful.
But I think a lot of things onmy CV just came out of necessity.
Like I wanted to do more artisticresearch and I applied to
(08:47):
around 400 jobs as an internship
Geri (08:50):
how many did you say?
400?
Özge (08:54):
over a period of a year maybe.
But it was like the answers wereeither we don't have any openings or.
We would love to work with you,though we don't have any money.
Um, and then, and I didn't haveany money and I needed a job
that would pay my rent basically.
So, uh, around that time, my partnerjust told me, because he's also
(09:19):
from software informatics, told methat, you know, there are people.
People in the software and technologyarea, they're trying to do something
similar to what you are looking for.
Maybe look with these words.
And then he gave me a kind of a bookabout user experience, or he suggested
me the word and I found the book.
(09:40):
And this is how I moved tothis area, basically, because
actually I needed a job, a visa,
Geri (09:45):
mm
Özge (09:45):
and I needed to keep going, but I also didn't want to leave the
things that I want to proceed with.
Um, yeah.
And then the next step in my first jobas a user researcher, user experience
designer in a company where they weredoing more research oriented projects,
(10:06):
uh, people didn't want to take theprojects like, that looked heavier,
like, you know, caregivers for Alzheimer'sdisease or, you know, projects with,
um, I don't know, cancer systemsfor several health issues, et cetera.
(10:27):
I was like, I was maybe oneof the people in the group who
were like, Oh, give them to me.
I love them type of thing.
And it just, you know, I wasthere doing the thing I imagined.
I remember my first week readingbooks about ethnography and how
to put them into technology.
And I was like, am I in adream they're paying for this.
(10:48):
Like, you know,
Geri (10:50):
It's, it's interesting, isn't it, the serendipitous ways that things
happen and the ways you clearlyidentified with the strand of work.
in this job that you tookfor pragmatic reasons of visa
and just getting an income.
And this was when youwere living in Vienna.
And still through that, even thoughit was more pragmatic, you were
(11:14):
still able to find a path that youconnected with and a contribution
that you could really care about.
Özge (11:23):
that that is really how it, it went.
And I sometimes when I look like,I always try to transfer these type
of stories to my PhD students whenthey're super demoralised because
you don't know what will happen next.
Just, you know, stick with the valuesyou have and do your best in the
(11:43):
situation where you are more or less.
And I'm still doing that, moreor less that stayed with me.
Geri (11:50):
So what are the values that you have?
Özge (11:52):
Oh, it's hard to count when just, you know, say one, two, three.
Um, but I think, uh, it's importantto listen to more than talk to.
And I think it's almost againstthe education I received.
Because designers are educated in a waythat, you know, that typical, um, wrong
(12:18):
quotation from Harry Ford, if we askthem, they would ask for horses, etc.
Um, and like all my work and say,success builds on listening, basically.
And listening without prejudgments, maybeas much as, I mean, it's impossible
because we are all biased, but, but liketrying to listen, um, and then maybe care
(12:45):
for like, not only for the self, but carefor the environment, care for the others.
I mean, if things do not come back toyou as benefits, you still need to care.
It's a fundamental thingin my group as well.
Um, and then also,culturally I am raised in a.
(13:11):
culture where things are more communaland collective than individual.
And I see quite a lot.
And then I lived in different countriesmore than 15 years, where individualistic
values were much more prioritized.
Um, and almost like, you know, purecollectivity was sometimes set aside.
(13:38):
So I think collective valuesover individual values and
collective goals, let's say.
And then from there, we can, of course,always move to diversity inclusion
Geri (13:52):
Mm.
Yeah.
Özge (13:55):
And also open communication.
This is very important, like,really open, direct communication.
And I'm more struggling now in Turkeyabout this than back in Austria, although
it was another language and so on.
Geri (14:12):
Oh, can you say more about that?
Because you eventually movedback to Turkey from living in
Austria and you have a lab there.
in the media and visual artsdepartment that is called future well
(14:35):
that we can come to in a tick andthat's interesting that future well
also reflects some of those values.
So you're in Turkey and you saidthat the open communication and being
direct is more challenging in Turkey.
Özge (14:51):
Yeah, The culture in Turkey builds a lot on indirect communication.
Um, although, most of my colleagueshere, as well as students, they
come from more European and U.
S.
education systems.
The culture is still there.
People tend to not to say,sorry or I made a mistake.
(15:15):
And really avoid it by silence this inreturn as a leader, uh, comes back to
where you can also not say, uh, can wereconsider redoing this just because
you see doesn't fit or something.
It's just like, this was one of theearliest feedbacks from my students.
Where they said, you know, they arenot used to this type of communication,
(15:41):
just because, they first perceivedit as a power relation, whereas
I was trying to build an opencommunication and a space for growth.
This very much reflects one littleanecdote here like my PhD students
are very well connected to their jurymembers, because of the system we
(16:01):
have here, and they have six monthlymeetings where they present progress.
And to be honest, their juries werea little bit, not aggressive, but
like, you know, openly criticizingthem so that they can learn at home.
can make their mistakes at home.
So, that when they are therein the job market, they know
(16:24):
their weaknesses or et cetera.
And then I was sending mystudents to other juries.
And they were like, oh, you know,there was a big mistake about
methodology and no one mentionedit, you know, this type of thing.
Um, even in scientific,
Geri (16:40):
Were your juries more open?
Were they not Turkish?
Is that what you're saying?
Özge (16:46):
Maybe you know, a jury is made out of people and people we invited,
and We had, thanks to, you know, lovelyHCI community members like Angelica
Strohmeyer, Sarah Fox, um, sitting inour juries, many more actually, Maria
Menendez, Avsar Gürpınar, and so on.
(17:08):
And they're all these people whoare struggling with different
things, and then they were reallyopen about Um, the weaknesses, the
Geri (17:16):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Özge (17:17):
face, and and off the record at the end of each meeting.
They were always like,Oh, it's a great growth.
Uh, you know, congratulations,but it's just the last sentences.
Geri (17:28):
So it was the fact that they engaged openly and honestly with
the realities of the work as theyperceived it and the students aren't
used to that culturally in that moredirect, and took it more personally?
Özge (17:44):
In the beginning, yes, but after some juries seeing each others and, you
know, seeing how it all goes like that,I think they cannot do otherwise now.
They are more skeptical if I, youknow, they write back to me like,
uh, I don't see many revisions.
Is it okay?
Did you have a real chance to check it?
So, you know, things changein time very, very easily.
(18:07):
I also started implementing this,not implementing, but doing it more
in the group because I took overdepartment coordinatorship in the
media and visual arts department.
And this is much more senior people and,with their own interests, work cultures.
But I try to communicate everythingopenly and like to everyone equally
(18:31):
And I think this also creates someconfusion from time to time, but now
everybody is kind of okay with it.
In the beginning, I think they werelike, okay, what are you up to?
Because it doesn't sound like the waywe do it or the way it was done before.
now everyone is happy because there isone document you can always go back and
see what the decisions were made and why
Geri (18:53):
Mm.
Özge (18:55):
More transparency never harms, basically.
Geri (18:57):
Yeah.
So you talked about building a spacefor growth, and that talks about time
to, to do the building, and you'redoing that with both your students
and in your interactions with theother faculty in the department.
Özge (19:13):
I am trying but as you know, the universities, I think, wherever you
are, they're not built in a way that,initiates this type of open discussions
all the time, or, I mean, although thatwe say so, it's really hard, uh, within
the systems of systems to try out thesekind of things, because everything
(19:35):
is more and more efficiency basedand documented in a particular way.
So it's really hard to keep thisgrowth approach up to date.
It's another effort, actually.
Geri (19:48):
It sort of reflects what you said about the CV, that the CV is a
particular telling of the career thatdoesn't include the 400 applications
that you send out or all the problemsand there's a way in which the, um,
Özge (20:03):
Yeah.
Geri (20:03):
processes also have this sort of a sanitized view of how work gets done.
Özge (20:09):
Actually at the Futurewell page and we are not doing it very diligently
nowadays, but we did in during thepandemic like we also recorded our
rejections to the Futurewell CV, orwe also recorded things like, you know,
someone did a embroidery session inthe city and enjoyed it or things like
(20:33):
that, because we just thought, okay,if no one gives credit to that, we
will give credit to that as a group.
We will value that.
And it actually brought us students.
Who were more like, I saw youare doing this type of thing.
And I actually didn't know this existedin this department or things like that.
I met many students like that.
(20:55):
So maybe they are just one or twopercentage of all students, this
doesn't mean that they're lessvaluable or their values are less
relevant to the design or arts.
Geri (21:08):
I love that you're trying to give that visibility so that it's
not just the sanitized, tick box,efficiency based version, because the
rejections reflect work, don't they?
And, running, a craft sessionin the city reflects work.
Özge (21:26):
Exactly.
And it's also a lot about growth.
You know, if you put things tojournals, uh, that you know, or to
conferences that you are co organizing,it's just, you know how it works.
Maybe it says superfits.
Uh, but for interdisciplinarity andfor searching new areas to grow, um,
(21:47):
usually you need to try and get rejected.
People react to things that they don'tknow, and maybe it's a part of your role
to push the boundaries a little bit more.
Each time, and I should say, my life onlybenefited from that in the last 20 years.
I mean, although it was really hard inthe beginning, like all these rejections,
(22:10):
I'm very happy that I attended designanthropology courses in Vienna.
I'm very happy that I met my ownboundaries, the wrong education
sometimes that I received.
I, I'm so happy to have faced that.
Geri (22:30):
Or what?
Like what came outta that?
Mm.
Özge (22:36):
I think I'm more like, I always ask the question to
myself, why am I doing this?
Is it like our very best, for instance,When we can measure and optimize every
aspect of our health, is it like thevery best thing to do or, the typical
question like, who will take careof me when I'm old, for instance,
(23:00):
um, I'm asking the question, wouldlife be more fulfilling if we know.
How we will be cared aswe age, like daily care.
And then when I really sit and thinkabout these things and read things around
these topics, I realized that it's notthese certain answers or perfection.
It's the way that goes to that place.
(23:22):
And I think as designers, weneed to take responsibility
about how we design that path.
Designers are more powerful in thatsense, because it touches every day of
every person, like there is no singleday in an urban life, especially that
you don't touch something designed.
(23:44):
Basically.
And so, you know, the new question ofAI, and it was always like that, the new
technologies, maybe we won't need design.
Then I start questioning more and more.
Okay, but like we're designing them,you know, because like the way they are
designed, they actually shape our worlds.
(24:08):
and then if we reflect on our ownbias, and then if we as educators, as
trainers, educate people in a way thatthey reflect on their bias, then we will
end up with better designs eventually.
I mean, it should happen like thatbecause there will be less feminist
(24:29):
activists visualized in AI with amustache, for instance, like the less
feminist activists from Turkey, youknow, this, this is a story we just
wrote some text to AI in the earlydays to figure out how it is perceived
when there is a Turkish context to that.
And all you receive islike, a lot of textiles.
(24:50):
And if it's feminism, kind of a femalelooking bodies with moustache and, hair.
I don't know why.
So this is a product ofbias thinking possibly.
Geri (25:03):
As you said, that's designed still, and not good.
Özge (25:11):
Actually, that thing, most of the things such like cultural
differences, that they can be fixed.
They can be easy fixes to them becausethey're not evil in, in, in, itself, it's
just learned and you can unlearn them.
But then, I think it was in June, Iwas listening to Sasha Costanza-Chock.
And they were talking about, thenecropolitics of technology, you know,
(25:34):
when technology intendedly kills people.
Like in the war situationor something like that.
Who is responsible for that?
Or what is the responsibilityof the designer at that point?
And if you start saying there isno responsibility because they
were just programming, they werejust designing, I'm not sure if
(25:55):
you're standing on the right spot.
We should question that and then we shouldreally build our practices around that.
The values I told like communityvalues and like humanity values.
Um, and then I think you won'tfind many designers who want
to design for necropolitics.
Geri (26:16):
How do you reflect on having these values and having these concerns
and to the extent in which academicculture that you are in, enables
them or not, like, how does it fit?
Özge (26:37):
I want to take it from scratch here and reflect back to my re relocation
experience, basically, because Ithink it connects back very well.
Like, academia, can we call it academia,like the primary school, I don't know, but
you know the education and the academia,let's say, never accepted my path.
(27:02):
Because as a small child inprimary school, I needed to change
school and cities five times.
So each year I studied backand forth between two schools.
And it was the relocation experience andmy teachers were accepting me, et cetera.
You know, that there was no big traumatraumatized memories from that time.
(27:23):
But imagine I'm, I was like6-11 years old in this period.
And relocating due tomy mom's work situation
Geri (27:31):
Mm.
Özge (27:32):
Out of necessity, changing all the friends, et cetera, and
struggling to get accepted by thesystem, by my friends, by my teacher.
And then, I moved toanother city to study.
And then I moved to U.
S.
for a period, uh, and then movedback to Istanbul, another city I did,
I was not living, uh, before then.
(27:55):
And then I moved to Vienna.
And throughout all these relocationexperience, I don't remember a time,
academic, non academic, or anyother systems accepting my path,
because I was always coming fromsomewhere, and I was not in the system.
Um, and people were actually tryingto help me fit into that system.
(28:20):
You know, they were trying, oh, youknow, you don't have this, but maybe
we can solve this problem like that.
And I think this adaptation gave me aspecific understanding about academic
expectations, how they are set.
And how I can move in it.
I think this comes from this relocationexperience because I was a designer,
(28:42):
I was an artist, like, you know,I had graduation certificates
from artistic universities, andthen I worked in technical areas.
Geri (28:51):
Mm.
Özge (28:52):
You know, all these things, they may seem seamless, but actually they are not.
You know, the paperwork says you needan engineering graduation certificate
in order to, I don't know, supervisea student or something like that.
And thanks to many, many people whovoluntarily helped me, who just took all
(29:13):
these hundreds pages of documentationand then went through them to find that
particular sentences that would help me.
I think I learned how to move, and it alsocomes back to the academic expectations.
Like, I am doing this yearlyevaluations in my university, um,
like I'm filling in these forms aboutexpertises, and, and how well I did.
(29:39):
And all I am doing is basicallytrying to fill in things I have done.
In the wording, they ask for more or less.
Geri (29:49):
Mm.
Özge (29:50):
Of course, it just gives you a structure.
Like, you need funding.
You need publications at certain venues.
You need good quality of teaching.
But I'm not against them.
They are not against my basic values.
The problem is how you balance them.
Like, one example is, like, when Ifirst arrived here, I already was
(30:12):
very experienced in, European projectsand how to build projects, etc.
But, and like pandemic just shortlyafter I came to Turkey, I realized
that it will be a hard path to takea project and lead it in a system that
I'm not familiar with where you needto circulate paperwork much more, etc.
(30:37):
So I opted for smaller grants.
I looked at what I have in hand.
I already got funding forPhD students from the school.
So I looked for travel money.
And then I looked for material moneyand I skipped the human resource part
and bigger projects, which comes witha lot of travels, which comes with a
(30:59):
lot of documentation and reporting.
Actually, it helped like this decision.
Helped me cut maybe, I don't know,a lot of hours invested in it.
Geri (31:11):
Uh,
Özge (31:11):
So this
Geri (31:12):
a lot of hours in the admin overhead sort of management side and
you use those hours instead to do?
Özge (31:22):
Uh, I used it more to build this culture, of collaborating with
people, um, in the neighborhoods andopen communication, setting more open
design culture and also of coursesupporting my students in their work,
(31:42):
and like more quality writing, freewriting, like, because if you have
a project, there are certain thingsyou need to write in a particular
area for a particular conference.
And this is not always your favorite paperto write, but you need to write them too.
So in my case, we werereally working on papers.
You know, literature reviews, even ifthey are not accepted, we were working on
(32:05):
literature reviews, for a longer period.
They were rejected, but like, it was funto deeply engage with an area, without
the pressure of delivering a report,delivering a particular paper and so on.
And it was not many, many hours,but the hours invested into these
(32:28):
readings instead of the hours investedinto a report, a technical report.
Geri (32:35):
I love that this has been a very deliberate choice, like a strategic choice
to say, this could give me a tick, a bigtick, because, you know, a big funding,
but the cost of getting that is notbeing able to do all these other things.
And I see again reflected the valuesthat you talked about before in terms of
(33:00):
the open communication and the communityaspects in what you're doing, and the care
aspects in looking after your students.
How are you, what's the trade off beenthough in doing that now that you're
trying to write your evaluation document?
Özge (33:17):
The trade off as of course, big, uh, when it comes to, I don't know, promotions
or, , a space negotiation or, I don'tknow, things that comes to an end.
where you need material things fromothers, especially from the leaders
of your university, of your area, etc.
(33:40):
But in return, I was ableto, uh, serve in communities.
I always wanted to serve like, you know,SIGCHI ethics community, accessibility,
like, uh, community access SIGCHI.
Um, and then I served asassociate chair and in other
roles in many conferences where.
(34:01):
I really met friends online fromtime to time, like friends and
colleagues, let's say, onlineand was able to exchange ideas.
And this helped me stay on trackthroughout the years because like
Turkey is a bit of disconnected.
Um, I need three hours to theairport if I use public transport.
(34:26):
And back in Vienna, it was like a 10minute walk on an accessible pedestrian,
uh, pathway and then a 12 minutetrain to the airport from my place.
Um,
Geri (34:41):
to three hours.
Özge (34:42):
yeah, and then pandemic, of course, two years of pandemic
in between, independent of that.
So this gave me the opportunity totalk to people that I want to talk to.
And to be a part of serviceroles that I want to be part of.
And the trade off is the other things.
But, I mean, academics do notalways like to cite popular figures.
(35:07):
But, there is this saying from DouglasAdams, Life is wasted on the living.
Um, I love it.
I mean, if you think through that,a bit deeply, you know, my choice
brought me people and conversation, deepconversation, that I'm interested in.
And it took away material things that Ionly need to proceed, with other things.
(35:36):
They were intermediary.
I didn't get a space, a proper space.
So I opened my own office tomy students as an office.
It was not a big, big, you know,big, big, big thing for me.
Geri (35:49):
So you didn't get your own separate lab space, you
Özge (35:52):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Things like that.
And, um, but it was not, Iwould do it the same way I did,
basically, after six years.
I'm not sorry about that.
Geri (36:03):
mm
Özge (36:04):
Um, and it just gave me a chance to think more about what do I need.
But how, how I fit them into my reportsnow or yearly or five in five years.
I don't.
I report the things that I have made, andwrite really always openly about why they
(36:28):
are relevant and why they are important.
Um, and then if people in leadershipdo not believe in these things.
I always try to give them examplesand references from outside of
Turkey, uh, or from other places thanthese leaders would find successful.
(36:50):
And I'm just trying to open thistype of communication more or less.
Geri (36:54):
Mm.
Özge (36:56):
Let's see how it turns out.
Geri (37:00):
I mean, in a lot of what you've talked about, you've always been trying
to find ways of being true to you.
Mm-Hmm.
Özge (37:14):
I think it's also, it comes back to a disability I own.
Basically, I was diagnosedwith depression, I don't know,
some people call it disability,some not, but, uh, I claim it.
Uh, and this was back when Iwas studying on my bachelors.
And then, um, and after treatment,like medical treatment more.
(37:40):
Uh, it came back when I was writing myPhD, and at that time, when, when you
have something like this, they, if youare good enough, it's not that severe,
they just can give you some tests tofigure out how to deal with it, et cetera.
And then I realized what, like towardsthe end of the treatment, second round
(38:02):
of, you know, treatments with therapy.
I realized that I can only act well.
Uh, when I am true to my values, um, andthen I said, I will prioritize my mental
health, and just, you know, if it'sthe only way, then it's the only way.
(38:23):
I think it just comes from there.
It's not like, oh, you know, Ihave values and I implemented them,
but it just comes from a personalstudy, uh, story to my opinion.
Geri (38:36):
What do you do to look after your mental health now?
Özge (38:39):
I do, what do I do?
Um, I keep space between stressful things.
Like, instead of planning stressfulmeetings on the same day, I put one
meeting a day and then keep space forless stressful and more fun things things.
as much as I can.
I walk in the woods.
(39:01):
It's a bit of a privilege ofliving very outside of the city.
I walk, every day, at least 30 minutes.
Cats are great in Istanbulfor the mental health.
Like, uh, you know, you can tryto walk with a cat, all the time.
And, and of course, I surround myselfwith people who understands me.
(39:23):
I actually give thisadvice to many people.
that you should work people, withpeople, whom you can get along with
and prioritize this more than the topic.
That's my understanding.
Like rather than really jumping into everydiversity inclusion topic that happens
(39:43):
in the school and around me, I reallywork with people, uh, who are working
on diverse topics, but we're reallyinterested into building this forward.
In a, say, in a less relevant area,like a high tech, a new high technology
thing, augmented reality, I don't know,something like that, you know, or, hybrid
(40:07):
type textiles, or things like that.
Geri (40:12):
So not being driven by playing the game in a way, but being
driven by staying true to yourself.
Özge (40:20):
We're still playing the game.I mean, it's really hard to say, oh,
I'm out of the game, by the way.
It's, it's, it's impossible.
Especially on my age where Istill need to work another 20
years to my official retirement.
So, I try to find potentials, likepotential places within the game where
(40:42):
it's pretty untouched and, maybe youcan go in and try something different
because no one is really interested in to.
I mean, I, I take thesekind of risks, let's say,
Geri (40:56):
Have you got an example?
Özge (41:00):
um, maybe for instance, things that I do with the city councils here
in Istanbul, uh, we look into, look intotopics where you cannot easily convert to
money or technology or, you know, and Iwent to them just based on my interest.
(41:23):
Um, but from this communication and fromthe initial more, um, let's say mainstream
workshops we have done about accessibilityof the city, is the city accessible
to everyone, or is it safe for women?
We moved to a communication where wecan talk about, non human potentials
(41:48):
of the city, what do we have, whatabout the green areas in the city,
and like one of my students is workingon this topic as a PhD, and it really
organically grow from that collaborations,communications, tools we have used.
So we didn't really build onaccessibility issue and said, uh,
(42:09):
okay, let's build an app that showsall the accessible spots in the city.
But we went with this relationshipsand, um, tried things that
were not in their agenda.
Geri (42:23):
Sounds good.
Can I go back to the depression andduring the PhD and writing that up?
So you were working with us at thatpoint, when you were writing up your PhD.
Okay.
Özge (42:44):
writing a PhD was a long journey.
And so I think it was before that.
It was before that it was even beforemy job Before the university, I had a
long period where I wrote my PhD andI'm writing a PhD in an art university.
It's a very free space.
(43:05):
I was not funded by my PhD, butI was doing research and teaching
assistantship on different schools.
Um, and it was that time, it cameback and it, it used to do with many
things, I think, because like, mentalhealth can go really worse very easily.
(43:28):
Actually, we don't realize thatuntil it is at a certain stage that
it can be diagnosed, more or less.
Geri (43:37):
yeah,
Özge (43:38):
Did you want to ask a particular thing?
Geri (43:41):
I think I was
wanting to reflect on myself becauseI was head of the group that you
were in and we were working togetherfrom 2000 10 basically until 18.
And I never knew that, that youhad a background with depression.
(44:05):
And I just wonder, is theresomething that I could have done
differently as leader of the group to
make it okay to talk about or, youknow, um, yeah, or just could I have
done different things to support you.
Özge (44:28):
It was like the period before I was working at the university.
And thank you, but I think you'vedone really well always, all the time.
It's, it's nice to have someonewho you can cry with, love
with, and then work together.
It's a very accommodatingenvironment for, for someone like me.
(44:49):
Um, I think the time I had that Itwas more of, um, a lot of things
coming all together, includinga kind of an asocializing.
Uh, and at that time I was like,I said, loosely connected to work
environments, loosely connected to school.
I was not a student anymore, butnot a part of a community as well.
(45:16):
And I think, being relocated,dealing with all types of issues
around that, all added up to that,together with the stress of, about
your future, about your, um, familysituation, that you cannot really help.
You know, things pile up together, andif you are already a bit vulnerable in
(45:37):
the beginning, it can easily get worse.
Geri (45:39):
Mm, Mm, Mm.
Özge (45:44):
And, um, and also like, um, having therapy in a language that you
are on B2 level is not super helpful.
It was the times where you wouldn't.
receive help in Turkish, forinstance, in, in Austria.
I think it's different now, by the way.
Um, and it's a good thing.
(46:05):
And school support was really loose.
Um, I remember, I don'tknow if it's any better.
It's a slightly bit better at ourplace now, but still, you don't
have one door, that you can knockwhen you're not feeling all right.
You know, it's still.
Um, and this is something that we,we do at Futurewell, by the way.
(46:25):
You can just come over and havea cup of tea with us and we can
just chat and we prioritize that.
Geri (46:34):
Mm.
Özge (46:34):
because I mean, half an hour of a tea drinking will not really
make me less successful, I believe.
Uh, yeah.
Geri (46:44):
So it's, it's not a big cost.
So that connects nicely to whatyou've done in leading your own
group, where you've set up thisculture statement, for the group
about how you look after wellbeing.
Do you wanna talk aboutthat a little bit more?
Özge (47:04):
Yes.
Starting from the early times, forFuturewell, but also like maybe
my time at IGW, uh, as well.
I was more like,
Geri (47:15):
IGW, being the group that we worked in together, just for
Özge (47:20):
Uh, uh, yeah, I think I just realized that I was seeing.
clearly that people were struggling.
You know, it's, it's sometimes they evencalled my room, the dark room, to cry.
Some people in the group, becauseit was at the end of the corridor.
It's super disconnected.
So if you go and cry there, no oneapart from me will know about it.
(47:44):
I don't know if it may, it was really,you know, extra inclusive or something,
but I remember we joked about that.
Um, so.
I wanted to have the samething in my group as well.
It should be a place where people canopenly talk about their problems, um,
more than small chitchat, maybe even.
(48:06):
Um, so we didn't hang anything on thedoor, but if you know it, um, You know
it like if you just come to the roomfor another purpose and like you are a
little bit shaking people first ask youto sit down and have a tea and then we
will talk about whatever you want to aska little bit later and people usually
(48:29):
sit and after having their tea theythey either tell or sit in silence.
But you understand that they don't cometo that room just because they want
to ask for a signature or something.
Sometimes, you know,there's more connection.
Geri (48:43):
Mm.
Özge (48:44):
Um, so, another thing was like to really reflect on things at the time.
Like, when COVID came, for instance,uh, most people kept working.
Like, they just moved to Zoomand kept working like before.
(49:04):
And we said, okay.
It will be hard times, because, you know,it sounds like it will be hard times.
What about having a short checkin every day, where we talk about
just the day, and if people wantto have questions, then they can.
Want to ask questions, they can.
(49:26):
And things like that.
I cannot give a recipe for thesekind of caring acts, uh, let's say.
Um, but it's, it all reflected.
to our teaching, for instance, lateron, to more importantly, to our remedial
exams, amnesty exams, you know, I don'tknow if you have them, but in Turkish
culture, in Turkish system, if you fail aclass, you can receive some extra exams.
(49:56):
If you fail a couple of classes, butyou are in the situation of graduation,
you can, get, uh, other types of exams,just all at the same week, et cetera.
And, these are like traditionalexams and some people have.
stress about this because theexams decide their future more or
(50:17):
less if they can graduate or not.
So I was just, building them differently.
Like I was talking to students andgiving them the option that they can
submit in advance and if I, if they fail,they can resubmit a better version or
because you cannot extend the deadline.
The deadline is centralBut you can start earlier.
(50:41):
Things like that.
And, um, I think thisaccommodated a lot of people.
A lot.
I mean, I don't know, but at leastthis accommodated the people who
were on our door and asking for help.
I cannot say a lot of people,but it helped some people.
Another thing is like, um, thephysical access basically, If you
(51:02):
cannot get physical access, you canactually, um, get collaborative access.
If you don't have the opportunityto put a stairs to somewhere, You can
have the person, yeah, hold them andhave them jump or, you know, there are
different types of access and it wasa lot of understanding these things,
(51:24):
learning and trying to accommodate.
One, one, one simple thing is like, oneof my colleagues with wheelchair, he
told me that he cannot come to my room.
And I didn't know why, because my roomis just next to the elevator and it's
one of the most accessible places.
And later on he said, uh, becauseI have accumulated artistic
(51:46):
stuff, stuff behind the door.
The door is not fully opening.
And I was like, you know,this is intersectional.
My artistic practice and theirmaterial conflicts with this.
Um, but you know, learning how torestructure your environment in a
way, just putting just very smallthings, open communication allows
(52:08):
you to correct them a little
Geri (52:10):
Mm.
Özge (52:11):
And, and grow your, um, empathy.
Geri (52:15):
Yeah.
Özge (52:16):
Because you start looking at where are the other things, where are
the other doors that are not fullyopening or, uh, or when I am working,
with disabled students and they cannotfind my room or the class where we
are teaching, then you know that the,braille maps are not perfectly working.
(52:36):
Because we have braille maps.
Basically, we have greataccessibility support in our campus.
In contrary to common belief, uh,it's an awarded, like, accessibility
awarded campus, basically.
But still, it doesn't mean that peoplecan use them easily, can find these
maps easily, um, and things like that.
Geri (52:55):
Mm.
Yeah.
And, and more lovely examples of theway you enact care, you know, like you
live out your care value on a day today, both in how you engage in your
teaching and using the space you haveto innovate or interpret the central
(53:18):
rules about deadlines, to supportstudents and also just The openness
to respond to students needs as theycome up and to keep growing yourself.
In just looking at wrapping up.
Are there any things that we haven'ttalked about that you'd like to talk
(53:41):
about or share while we're here?
Are there any things about, I don'tknow, any particular sort of challenges
around working in Turkey with, say theeconomic constraints there and trying
to engage in an international community?
Because you talked before, for example,about Participating in some online
(54:04):
committees and professional serviceroles, and they sounded like they
were roles that you could play outonline, and I know that a lot of our
communities also encourage, rely on,reward physical travel, for example.
Özge (54:22):
Uh that's a good point that we can talk about.
I think there are a couple of thingsthat many people whom you also
talk with, who are not living inEurope or US, um, tell the same.
There are differences.
They are not necessarily weakness orstrength, but there are different things.
(54:43):
Like one issue is that doesn'tapply to me, but that applies to
my team members or my colleagues.
Most of the time, thevisa issue, for instance,
Geri (54:52):
Um, Uh, Um,
Özge (54:52):
It's not only the travel.
I mean, most people would just say,okay, I will travel three hours and it's
a bit of a harder task than 20 minutes.
Though, if you're living in Turkey, Andwe work on a very sharp political climate.
We struggle, and in Istanbul westruggle, with megacity problems
(55:14):
and in comparison, like, you know,commute to the airport is a fun
activity you would do for three hours.
It's not the problem.
But then the visa issue, like the lowacceptance of visas, for instance,
currently in Europe, Was a big dealfor us because like two of my students
(55:35):
on two different times were rejectedwith an accepted conference paper.
And this can be end of their career.
They're PhD students and we barely putthe money together as a, um, research
group, um, they got funding from theconference organizers, for instance,
(55:58):
thanks to everyone who supported this typeof travel funding, because we really, I
mean, we couldn't pay anything about, youknow, about the entrance fees, et cetera.
Another point, but then the visa costs,they, their families take care of it
and sometimes our graduate school, ofcourse, and then the visa is rejected.
(56:18):
Think about the monetary aspect, theeffort they put in and the irrelevance
of such a paperwork to their life.
PhDs or to their paper writing.
And then they really need todeal with on a daily basis.
This means even if their visasare approved, they can only book
on very last minute flights,which is much more expensive.
(56:40):
They can only book in a hotel onthe very last days, which means they
usually live outside and cannot reallybe part of the cultural activities.
This is a huge, huge burden for us.
All the time.
I said my students and my team.
Um, were lucky and travel funding.
(57:04):
But if you don't have travel funding,I mean, they have a bit of a budget
here, but like the expectationof interaction design area of
publishing, it's just really a lot.
And if they want postdoc positions,they need to publish, they need
to be present, they need to attendthe workshops to make friends.
(57:24):
Um, and it's impossible because like,you know, Euro versus Turkish Lira.
The money that we get as salaries or assupport, it just like melts so easily.
it's impossible to keeppace with that as well.
Um, for me, the most, most challengingthing, but not a big, big challenge
(57:50):
in comparison to two things that Imentioned is usually the time zones.
Like when you have servicemeetings, of course, people want
to have them towards the end oftheir day, like as a last thing.
So end of your day at five o'clock or 4.
30 in Europe is my dinner more or less.
Geri (58:10):
Mm,
Özge (58:11):
Um, but I mean, people were so accommodating.
For instance, StaceyBranham and Sarah Volks.
I mean, they wanted to take 6am in themorning sometimes so that our students
are not presenting in the middle ofthe night or, you know, and I just
really, I, I was so taken care of.
I couldn't really say, uh, it was abig problem, but in general, let's say
Geri (58:34):
yeah.
Özge (58:35):
that people need to take care of more or
Geri (58:37):
Mm,
Özge (58:39):
Uh, and, of course my university and other universities in Turkey
who are struggling for success.
Um, they are evaluated with U.
S.
systems, like, they are competingfor the same ranking as the U.
S.
schools.
And this puts a pressureon everything that they do.
(59:02):
Um, everything has to be a kind of a U.
S.
like, for instance, me being evaluatedby 12 international professors to keep
my position, or, you know, and then eachprofessor in tenure track has the same.
And think about the amount of servicework the deans have to do, the
coordinator has to do, coordinatorshas to do, and the number of letters
(59:26):
the international people need to write.
So these type of things.
Um, I think that I cannot change, butI'm looking and observing them closely
and try to find potential to, to raisevoice maybe because they don't seem
very fitting and uh, and accommodating.
(59:46):
But on the other hand, I don'thave any other solution because
like it comes from a global system.
They try to be like, myuniversity is in top 500.
Um, in, and it's a research one universitywith a lot of ERC grants, and this is a
huge success for a university from Turkey,with all the struggles piling together.
(01:00:10):
Um, so they are trying to keep theirspace, I mean, uh, keep their spot
and they're playing the game and itreflects back to us more or less.
Geri (01:00:22):
mm,
Özge (01:00:22):
This is a lot of things.
And one last thing.
I want to see more peopletraveling to Turkey.
That would be nice.
I think none of the majorconferences were held in Turkey, and
people were not that frequently.
I mean, our department is, uh,having guest speakers every year,
(01:00:45):
international guest speakers.
Um, but.
The more people invest into othercountries, not only Turkey, the
more connected we are, and thenthe less biased, the less biased
everyone is, like, you know.
So that the less tension we haveacross countries and I think this can
(01:01:07):
only help having a more inclusive,uh, interaction design area.
I don't know
Geri (01:01:14):
And it's, it's growing the empathy that you talked about
before, isn't it, in, in doing that?
Özge (01:01:20):
exactly, I mean, just commuting three hours from the airport helps
understanding why you don't, whythe other person is just a bit not
wishing to travel that frequently.
Geri (01:01:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I know that being in Vienna, I can popup to Denmark for a meeting for the day
and come back the same day because asyou said, the app was really accessible
and that's just not an option you have.
Yeah.
Özge (01:01:47):
no, just, uh, yeah, but it's cutting travel.
Cutting travel is a learning as well.
Geri (01:01:56):
And, well, uh, yes, and cutting travel is a learning.
So there's some ways in which maybe theincreasing emphasis on sustainability and
the increasing critical reflection we'reseeing around the amount of academic
travel, and whether that's a good thingor not, can also be an inclusive measure
that may result in other initiativesthat could help countries where it is a
(01:02:19):
little bit more difficult to travel from.
Özge (01:02:21):
Um,
Geri (01:02:23):
Yeah, Özge we should wrap up and thank you so much for giving me
this time and just for sharing yourperspectives and I really appreciate you
and your commitment to staying true towho you are and really navigating that
(01:02:43):
path through and making it work and evenwhere there are trade offs, you know,
you, you articulated those trade offsin a way that were constructive still.
And, you show an example of how youcan make those trade offs and still
feel good, and still make them work.
Özge (01:03:05):
I think, I should thank to you and people like you, uh, who are
trying to open these conversationsto public, who are trying to
accommodate them all the time.
Because I think this gave methe power to look into the
dark and weak sides of things.
(01:03:26):
Um, just an accommodating environmentand community really helps to reflect.
On these things, so if it's asuccess, it's a collaborative one, for
Geri (01:03:36):
and we're all part of that community in creating that space for one another.
So thank you, and it's good.
Özge (01:03:45):
Thank you.
Geri (01:03:49):
You can find the summary notes, a transcript, and related
links for this podcast on www.
changingacademiclife.
com.
You can also subscribe toChanging Academic Life on iTunes,
Spotify, and Google Podcasts.
And I'm really hoping that we canwiden the conversation about how
we can do academia differently.
(01:04:10):
And you can contribute to this by ratingthe podcast and also giving feedback.
And if something connected with you,please consider sharing this podcast
with your colleagues together.
We can make change happen.
Welcome to Changing Academic Life.
I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick and this isa podcast series where academics and
others share their stories, provideideas and provoke discussions about what
we can do individually and collectivelyto change academic life for the better.
(00:31):
Do you ever think, you knowsomeone well, because you've worked
with them for a number of years.
Well, that's what I thought when Iinvited Özge Subaşı onto the podcast.
Özge and I worked together inVienna from about 2010 to 2018.
Özge is now in Istanbul inTurkey Or Türkiye in Turkish.
And is the director of 'Futurewell: co-creation and wellbeing' group (00:56):
undefined
in the media and visual artsdepartment at Koç University there.
I thought it would be really interestingto talk to Özge about the challenges
of trying to navigate academia andprofessional engagement, working
in a different cultural context.
(01:18):
And also with the particular traveland financial constraints in Turkey.
But the conversation endedup being so much more.
And I learned things aboutÖzge that I never knew.
Özge's story reflects a lifeof multiple relocations.
Whether moving schools as a child.
(01:41):
Or transitioning disciplines.
Or navigating new countries and cultures.
Özge describes this as"always coming from somewhere
and not being in the system".
Throughout all of this though Özgealso demonstrates a really strong
(02:01):
sense of personal core values.
And the importance ofholding true to them.
And they're values likelistening without pre-judgment.
Fostering open communication.
And bringing a deep care for theindividual, the community, the
environment, and so much more.
(02:25):
And Özge gives us lots of practicalexamples of how these values influence
research and teaching choices.
As well as navigating the trade-offs.
Particularly coming to the fore whilecompleting an evaluation document.
Özge also shares very openly aboutthe challenges dealing with depression
(02:50):
during the academic journey.
And strategies for maintainingpersonal wellbeing.
And we discussed the challengesfaced by academics in Turkey.
In particular, engaging withan international community.
And specific issues related tointernational travel and visas and how
(03:11):
students can be particularly impacted.
So I hope you find thisconversation as inspiring as I did.
In seeing Özge'scommitment to core values.
To trying different ways ofbeing an academic researcher.
And to fostering an empatheticand inclusive work culture.
(03:37):
Welcome Özge (Hi) And as fulldisclosure, we should just say that
we did work together a number ofyears ago, so know each other well.
And I just also had the pleasureof visiting with you in Turkey
. Can you set us up a little bit about your background?
Özge (03:59):
Yes, uh, I am Özge and I am working in the interaction design
area with, um, a lot of diversity,inclusion, and justice, topics.
And I have a background actually inthe arts, more in, in industrial
design, but more with artisticperspectives when people use design
(04:24):
to tell, , let's say artistic stories,and not necessarily to sell things.
This is where I started.
And, then I moved more andmore to the human perspectives,
and tried to combine it
Geri (04:39):
So what, how did that shift happen?
Because, you know, when CV, it'svery much industrial design for
your bachelor's and master's.
And.
Design anthropology for your PhD.
So that seems a shiftinto interaction design.
Özge (04:56):
Yes, actually, at the time I studied, like, back in the 90s,
I don't remember even the, theinteraction design word existed or not.
I remember, maybe, whowas it, in, in Atlanta, the
ubiquitous word came just true.
Um, it was, those times.
(05:16):
And I did have an interest inunderstanding people and how I can
bring it back to what I was tryingto do, but there was no space.
Just to give an example, in mybachelor's, I worked with blind and
visually impaired children for a termwhere I spent really two or three
days a week in a school with them.
(05:39):
And, uh, while it started truly to, tobuild something that is helpful for them,
like for their educational development.
It turned out that I was learningmore and more from them and I was
more and more inspired from them.
Um, but there was no space inmy education back at that time.
(06:00):
So I was doing some extra artisticcourses in my Bachelor, but the project
ended, uh, as a toy design for them
Geri (06:08):
mm
Özge (06:09):
But then I moved to, uh, to master's where I studied more of cultural
studies and design anthropology andstep by step and implemented them into
my work and started doing more andmore interventions were like, about
performance on the street or a smallexhibition on an unexpected space,
(06:33):
things like that to, to see how I canuse this design early skills to disrupt
a little bit of these prejudgments.
It all started moreorganically, basically.
Geri (06:44):
Yeah.
And you can also see the red threadsthat I can see today, like the fact
that in your bachelor's, the workwith the blind and visually impaired
students is something that seemed to.
I don't know, energize you or youfind important and when you introduce
yourself, you talked about diversity,inclusion, and justice, and Yeah.
(07:08):
They seem like really strongred threads through it all.
Özge (07:13):
Embarrassingly, the first time I, I was meeting with these
students, these children, they werelike seven to nine years old, maybe.
I was expecting to give themsomething, like, because they're
blind, they're visually impaired,and I can build something for them
so that they can enjoy, you know.
But then I realized that they weregossiping around things we are doing.
(07:35):
Like, you know, the other studentswork, actually it's too easy, but they
are just behaving as if it's fun.
Things like, and then I started to diveinto that world and understand that it's
more, you know, they are children first,and then they have these differences.
Geri (07:55):
Hmm.
Özge (07:56):
And their word built on, like, their language built on it.
Geri (07:59):
Hmm.
Well, that's interesting.
Özge (08:02):
So embarrassing, but good learning.
Geri (08:05):
good learning.
Yeah.
So after your PhD, you then worked indifferent projects, bringing more of
this designerly perspective and morefrom the interaction design contribution?
Özge (08:24):
Now, CVs, I need to give this, opinion here, maybe.
CVs are written in a certain waythat makes things look successful.
But I think a lot of things onmy CV just came out of necessity.
Like I wanted to do more artisticresearch and I applied to
(08:47):
around 400 jobs as an internship
Geri (08:50):
how many did you say?
400?
Özge (08:54):
over a period of a year maybe.
But it was like the answers wereeither we don't have any openings or.
We would love to work with you,though we don't have any money.
Um, and then, and I didn't haveany money and I needed a job
that would pay my rent basically.
So, uh, around that time, my partnerjust told me, because he's also
(09:19):
from software informatics, told methat, you know, there are people.
People in the software and technologyarea, they're trying to do something
similar to what you are looking for.
Maybe look with these words.
And then he gave me a kind of a bookabout user experience, or he suggested
me the word and I found the book.
(09:40):
And this is how I moved tothis area, basically, because
actually I needed a job, a visa,
Geri (09:45):
mm
Özge (09:45):
and I needed to keep going, but I also didn't want to leave the
things that I want to proceed with.
Um, yeah.
And then the next step in my first jobas a user researcher, user experience
designer in a company where they weredoing more research oriented projects,
(10:06):
uh, people didn't want to take theprojects like, that looked heavier,
like, you know, caregivers for Alzheimer'sdisease or, you know, projects with,
um, I don't know, cancer systemsfor several health issues, et cetera.
(10:27):
I was like, I was maybe oneof the people in the group who
were like, Oh, give them to me.
I love them type of thing.
And it just, you know, I wasthere doing the thing I imagined.
I remember my first week readingbooks about ethnography and how
to put them into technology.
And I was like, am I in adream they're paying for this.
(10:48):
Like, you know,
Geri (10:50):
It's, it's interesting, isn't it, the serendipitous ways that things
happen and the ways you clearlyidentified with the strand of work.
in this job that you tookfor pragmatic reasons of visa
and just getting an income.
And this was when youwere living in Vienna.
And still through that, even thoughit was more pragmatic, you were
(11:14):
still able to find a path that youconnected with and a contribution
that you could really care about.
Özge (11:23):
that that is really how it, it went.
And I sometimes when I look like,I always try to transfer these type
of stories to my PhD students whenthey're super demoralised because
you don't know what will happen next.
Just, you know, stick with the valuesyou have and do your best in the
(11:43):
situation where you are more or less.
And I'm still doing that, moreor less that stayed with me.
Geri (11:50):
So what are the values that you have?
Özge (11:52):
Oh, it's hard to count when just, you know, say one, two, three.
Um, but I think, uh, it's importantto listen to more than talk to.
And I think it's almost againstthe education I received.
Because designers are educated in a waythat, you know, that typical, um, wrong
(12:18):
quotation from Harry Ford, if we askthem, they would ask for horses, etc.
Um, and like all my work and say,success builds on listening, basically.
And listening without prejudgments, maybeas much as, I mean, it's impossible
because we are all biased, but, but liketrying to listen, um, and then maybe care
(12:45):
for like, not only for the self, but carefor the environment, care for the others.
I mean, if things do not come back toyou as benefits, you still need to care.
It's a fundamental thingin my group as well.
Um, and then also,culturally I am raised in a.
(13:11):
culture where things are more communaland collective than individual.
And I see quite a lot.
And then I lived in different countriesmore than 15 years, where individualistic
values were much more prioritized.
Um, and almost like, you know, purecollectivity was sometimes set aside.
(13:38):
So I think collective valuesover individual values and
collective goals, let's say.
And then from there, we can, of course,always move to diversity inclusion
Geri (13:52):
Mm.
Yeah.
Özge (13:55):
And also open communication.
This is very important, like,really open, direct communication.
And I'm more struggling now in Turkeyabout this than back in Austria, although
it was another language and so on.
Geri (14:12):
Oh, can you say more about that?
Because you eventually movedback to Turkey from living in
Austria and you have a lab there.
in the media and visual artsdepartment that is called future well
(14:35):
that we can come to in a tick andthat's interesting that future well
also reflects some of those values.
So you're in Turkey and you saidthat the open communication and being
direct is more challenging in Turkey.
Özge (14:51):
Yeah, The culture in Turkey builds a lot on indirect communication.
Um, although, most of my colleagueshere, as well as students, they
come from more European and U.
S.
education systems.
The culture is still there.
People tend to not to say,sorry or I made a mistake.
(15:15):
And really avoid it by silence this inreturn as a leader, uh, comes back to
where you can also not say, uh, can wereconsider redoing this just because
you see doesn't fit or something.
It's just like, this was one of theearliest feedbacks from my students.
Where they said, you know, they arenot used to this type of communication,
(15:41):
just because, they first perceivedit as a power relation, whereas
I was trying to build an opencommunication and a space for growth.
This very much reflects one littleanecdote here like my PhD students
are very well connected to their jurymembers, because of the system we
(16:01):
have here, and they have six monthlymeetings where they present progress.
And to be honest, their juries werea little bit, not aggressive, but
like, you know, openly criticizingthem so that they can learn at home.
can make their mistakes at home.
So, that when they are therein the job market, they know
(16:24):
their weaknesses or et cetera.
And then I was sending mystudents to other juries.
And they were like, oh, you know,there was a big mistake about
methodology and no one mentionedit, you know, this type of thing.
Um, even in scientific,
Geri (16:40):
Were your juries more open?
Were they not Turkish?
Is that what you're saying?
Özge (16:46):
Maybe you know, a jury is made out of people and people we invited,
and We had, thanks to, you know, lovelyHCI community members like Angelica
Strohmeyer, Sarah Fox, um, sitting inour juries, many more actually, Maria
Menendez, Avsar Gürpınar, and so on.
(17:08):
And they're all these people whoare struggling with different
things, and then they were reallyopen about Um, the weaknesses, the
Geri (17:16):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Özge (17:17):
face, and and off the record at the end of each meeting.
They were always like,Oh, it's a great growth.
Uh, you know, congratulations,but it's just the last sentences.
Geri (17:28):
So it was the fact that they engaged openly and honestly with
the realities of the work as theyperceived it and the students aren't
used to that culturally in that moredirect, and took it more personally?
Özge (17:44):
In the beginning, yes, but after some juries seeing each others and, you
know, seeing how it all goes like that,I think they cannot do otherwise now.
They are more skeptical if I, youknow, they write back to me like,
uh, I don't see many revisions.
Is it okay?
Did you have a real chance to check it?
So, you know, things changein time very, very easily.
(18:07):
I also started implementing this,not implementing, but doing it more
in the group because I took overdepartment coordinatorship in the
media and visual arts department.
And this is much more senior people and,with their own interests, work cultures.
But I try to communicate everythingopenly and like to everyone equally
(18:31):
And I think this also creates someconfusion from time to time, but now
everybody is kind of okay with it.
In the beginning, I think they werelike, okay, what are you up to?
Because it doesn't sound like the waywe do it or the way it was done before.
now everyone is happy because there isone document you can always go back and
see what the decisions were made and why
Geri (18:53):
Mm.
Özge (18:55):
More transparency never harms, basically.
Geri (18:57):
Yeah.
So you talked about building a spacefor growth, and that talks about time
to, to do the building, and you'redoing that with both your students
and in your interactions with theother faculty in the department.
Özge (19:13):
I am trying but as you know, the universities, I think, wherever you
are, they're not built in a way that,initiates this type of open discussions
all the time, or, I mean, although thatwe say so, it's really hard, uh, within
the systems of systems to try out thesekind of things, because everything
(19:35):
is more and more efficiency basedand documented in a particular way.
So it's really hard to keep thisgrowth approach up to date.
It's another effort, actually.
Geri (19:48):
It sort of reflects what you said about the CV, that the CV is a
particular telling of the career thatdoesn't include the 400 applications
that you send out or all the problemsand there's a way in which the, um,
Özge (20:03):
Yeah.
Geri (20:03):
processes also have this sort of a sanitized view of how work gets done.
Özge (20:09):
Actually at the Futurewell page and we are not doing it very diligently
nowadays, but we did in during thepandemic like we also recorded our
rejections to the Futurewell CV, orwe also recorded things like, you know,
someone did a embroidery session inthe city and enjoyed it or things like
(20:33):
that, because we just thought, okay,if no one gives credit to that, we
will give credit to that as a group.
We will value that.
And it actually brought us students.
Who were more like, I saw youare doing this type of thing.
And I actually didn't know this existedin this department or things like that.
I met many students like that.
(20:55):
So maybe they are just one or twopercentage of all students, this
doesn't mean that they're lessvaluable or their values are less
relevant to the design or arts.
Geri (21:08):
I love that you're trying to give that visibility so that it's
not just the sanitized, tick box,efficiency based version, because the
rejections reflect work, don't they?
And, running, a craft sessionin the city reflects work.
Özge (21:26):
Exactly.
And it's also a lot about growth.
You know, if you put things tojournals, uh, that you know, or to
conferences that you are co organizing,it's just, you know how it works.
Maybe it says superfits.
Uh, but for interdisciplinarity andfor searching new areas to grow, um,
(21:47):
usually you need to try and get rejected.
People react to things that they don'tknow, and maybe it's a part of your role
to push the boundaries a little bit more.
Each time, and I should say, my life onlybenefited from that in the last 20 years.
I mean, although it was really hard inthe beginning, like all these rejections,
(22:10):
I'm very happy that I attended designanthropology courses in Vienna.
I'm very happy that I met my ownboundaries, the wrong education
sometimes that I received.
I, I'm so happy to have faced that.
Geri (22:30):
Or what?
Like what came outta that?
Mm.
Özge (22:36):
I think I'm more like, I always ask the question to
myself, why am I doing this?
Is it like our very best, for instance,When we can measure and optimize every
aspect of our health, is it like thevery best thing to do or, the typical
question like, who will take careof me when I'm old, for instance,
(23:00):
um, I'm asking the question, wouldlife be more fulfilling if we know.
How we will be cared aswe age, like daily care.
And then when I really sit and thinkabout these things and read things around
these topics, I realized that it's notthese certain answers or perfection.
It's the way that goes to that place.
(23:22):
And I think as designers, weneed to take responsibility
about how we design that path.
Designers are more powerful in thatsense, because it touches every day of
every person, like there is no singleday in an urban life, especially that
you don't touch something designed.
(23:44):
Basically.
And so, you know, the new question ofAI, and it was always like that, the new
technologies, maybe we won't need design.
Then I start questioning more and more.
Okay, but like we're designing them,you know, because like the way they are
designed, they actually shape our worlds.
(24:08):
and then if we reflect on our ownbias, and then if we as educators, as
trainers, educate people in a way thatthey reflect on their bias, then we will
end up with better designs eventually.
I mean, it should happen like thatbecause there will be less feminist
(24:29):
activists visualized in AI with amustache, for instance, like the less
feminist activists from Turkey, youknow, this, this is a story we just
wrote some text to AI in the earlydays to figure out how it is perceived
when there is a Turkish context to that.
And all you receive islike, a lot of textiles.
(24:50):
And if it's feminism, kind of a femalelooking bodies with moustache and, hair.
I don't know why.
So this is a product ofbias thinking possibly.
Geri (25:03):
As you said, that's designed still, and not good.
Özge (25:11):
Actually, that thing, most of the things such like cultural
differences, that they can be fixed.
They can be easy fixes to them becausethey're not evil in, in, in, itself, it's
just learned and you can unlearn them.
But then, I think it was in June, Iwas listening to Sasha Costanza-Chock.
And they were talking about, thenecropolitics of technology, you know,
(25:34):
when technology intendedly kills people.
Like in the war situationor something like that.
Who is responsible for that?
Or what is the responsibilityof the designer at that point?
And if you start saying there isno responsibility because they
were just programming, they werejust designing, I'm not sure if
(25:55):
you're standing on the right spot.
We should question that and then we shouldreally build our practices around that.
The values I told like communityvalues and like humanity values.
Um, and then I think you won'tfind many designers who want
to design for necropolitics.
Geri (26:16):
How do you reflect on having these values and having these concerns
and to the extent in which academicculture that you are in, enables
them or not, like, how does it fit?
Özge (26:37):
I want to take it from scratch here and reflect back to my re relocation
experience, basically, because Ithink it connects back very well.
Like, academia, can we call it academia,like the primary school, I don't know, but
you know the education and the academia,let's say, never accepted my path.
(27:02):
Because as a small child inprimary school, I needed to change
school and cities five times.
So each year I studied backand forth between two schools.
And it was the relocation experience andmy teachers were accepting me, et cetera.
You know, that there was no big traumatraumatized memories from that time.
(27:23):
But imagine I'm, I was like6-11 years old in this period.
And relocating due tomy mom's work situation
Geri (27:31):
Mm.
Özge (27:32):
Out of necessity, changing all the friends, et cetera, and
struggling to get accepted by thesystem, by my friends, by my teacher.
And then, I moved toanother city to study.
And then I moved to U.
S.
for a period, uh, and then movedback to Istanbul, another city I did,
I was not living, uh, before then.
(27:55):
And then I moved to Vienna.
And throughout all these relocationexperience, I don't remember a time,
academic, non academic, or anyother systems accepting my path,
because I was always coming fromsomewhere, and I was not in the system.
Um, and people were actually tryingto help me fit into that system.
(28:20):
You know, they were trying, oh, youknow, you don't have this, but maybe
we can solve this problem like that.
And I think this adaptation gave me aspecific understanding about academic
expectations, how they are set.
And how I can move in it.
I think this comes from this relocationexperience because I was a designer,
(28:42):
I was an artist, like, you know,I had graduation certificates
from artistic universities, andthen I worked in technical areas.
Geri (28:51):
Mm.
Özge (28:52):
You know, all these things, they may seem seamless, but actually they are not.
You know, the paperwork says you needan engineering graduation certificate
in order to, I don't know, supervisea student or something like that.
And thanks to many, many people whovoluntarily helped me, who just took all
(29:13):
these hundreds pages of documentationand then went through them to find that
particular sentences that would help me.
I think I learned how to move, and it alsocomes back to the academic expectations.
Like, I am doing this yearlyevaluations in my university, um,
like I'm filling in these forms aboutexpertises, and, and how well I did.
(29:39):
And all I am doing is basicallytrying to fill in things I have done.
In the wording, they ask for more or less.
Geri (29:49):
Mm.
Özge (29:50):
Of course, it just gives you a structure.
Like, you need funding.
You need publications at certain venues.
You need good quality of teaching.
But I'm not against them.
They are not against my basic values.
The problem is how you balance them.
Like, one example is, like, when Ifirst arrived here, I already was
(30:12):
very experienced in, European projectsand how to build projects, etc.
But, and like pandemic just shortlyafter I came to Turkey, I realized
that it will be a hard path to takea project and lead it in a system that
I'm not familiar with where you needto circulate paperwork much more, etc.
(30:37):
So I opted for smaller grants.
I looked at what I have in hand.
I already got funding forPhD students from the school.
So I looked for travel money.
And then I looked for material moneyand I skipped the human resource part
and bigger projects, which comes witha lot of travels, which comes with a
(30:59):
lot of documentation and reporting.
Actually, it helped like this decision.
Helped me cut maybe, I don't know,a lot of hours invested in it.
Geri (31:11):
Uh,
Özge (31:11):
So this
Geri (31:12):
a lot of hours in the admin overhead sort of management side and
you use those hours instead to do?
Özge (31:22):
Uh, I used it more to build this culture, of collaborating with
people, um, in the neighborhoods andopen communication, setting more open
design culture and also of coursesupporting my students in their work,
(31:42):
and like more quality writing, freewriting, like, because if you have
a project, there are certain thingsyou need to write in a particular
area for a particular conference.
And this is not always your favorite paperto write, but you need to write them too.
So in my case, we werereally working on papers.
You know, literature reviews, even ifthey are not accepted, we were working on
(32:05):
literature reviews, for a longer period.
They were rejected, but like, it was funto deeply engage with an area, without
the pressure of delivering a report,delivering a particular paper and so on.
And it was not many, many hours,but the hours invested into these
(32:28):
readings instead of the hours investedinto a report, a technical report.
Geri (32:35):
I love that this has been a very deliberate choice, like a strategic choice
to say, this could give me a tick, a bigtick, because, you know, a big funding,
but the cost of getting that is notbeing able to do all these other things.
And I see again reflected the valuesthat you talked about before in terms of
(33:00):
the open communication and the communityaspects in what you're doing, and the care
aspects in looking after your students.
How are you, what's the trade off beenthough in doing that now that you're
trying to write your evaluation document?
Özge (33:17):
The trade off as of course, big, uh, when it comes to, I don't know, promotions
or, , a space negotiation or, I don'tknow, things that comes to an end.
where you need material things fromothers, especially from the leaders
of your university, of your area, etc.
(33:40):
But in return, I was ableto, uh, serve in communities.
I always wanted to serve like, you know,SIGCHI ethics community, accessibility,
like, uh, community access SIGCHI.
Um, and then I served asassociate chair and in other
roles in many conferences where.
(34:01):
I really met friends online fromtime to time, like friends and
colleagues, let's say, onlineand was able to exchange ideas.
And this helped me stay on trackthroughout the years because like
Turkey is a bit of disconnected.
Um, I need three hours to theairport if I use public transport.
(34:26):
And back in Vienna, it was like a 10minute walk on an accessible pedestrian,
uh, pathway and then a 12 minutetrain to the airport from my place.
Um,
Geri (34:41):
to three hours.
Özge (34:42):
yeah, and then pandemic, of course, two years of pandemic
in between, independent of that.
So this gave me the opportunity totalk to people that I want to talk to.
And to be a part of serviceroles that I want to be part of.
And the trade off is the other things.
But, I mean, academics do notalways like to cite popular figures.
(35:07):
But, there is this saying from DouglasAdams, Life is wasted on the living.
Um, I love it.
I mean, if you think through that,a bit deeply, you know, my choice
brought me people and conversation, deepconversation, that I'm interested in.
And it took away material things that Ionly need to proceed, with other things.
(35:36):
They were intermediary.
I didn't get a space, a proper space.
So I opened my own office tomy students as an office.
It was not a big, big, you know,big, big, big thing for me.
Geri (35:49):
So you didn't get your own separate lab space, you
Özge (35:52):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Things like that.
And, um, but it was not, Iwould do it the same way I did,
basically, after six years.
I'm not sorry about that.
Geri (36:03):
mm
Özge (36:04):
Um, and it just gave me a chance to think more about what do I need.
But how, how I fit them into my reportsnow or yearly or five in five years.
I don't.
I report the things that I have made, andwrite really always openly about why they
(36:28):
are relevant and why they are important.
Um, and then if people in leadershipdo not believe in these things.
I always try to give them examplesand references from outside of
Turkey, uh, or from other places thanthese leaders would find successful.
(36:50):
And I'm just trying to open thistype of communication more or less.
Geri (36:54):
Mm.
Özge (36:56):
Let's see how it turns out.
Geri (37:00):
I mean, in a lot of what you've talked about, you've always been trying
to find ways of being true to you.
Mm-Hmm.
Özge (37:14):
I think it's also, it comes back to a disability I own.
Basically, I was diagnosedwith depression, I don't know,
some people call it disability,some not, but, uh, I claim it.
Uh, and this was back when Iwas studying on my bachelors.
And then, um, and after treatment,like medical treatment more.
(37:40):
Uh, it came back when I was writing myPhD, and at that time, when, when you
have something like this, they, if youare good enough, it's not that severe,
they just can give you some tests tofigure out how to deal with it, et cetera.
And then I realized what, like towardsthe end of the treatment, second round
(38:02):
of, you know, treatments with therapy.
I realized that I can only act well.
Uh, when I am true to my values, um, andthen I said, I will prioritize my mental
health, and just, you know, if it'sthe only way, then it's the only way.
(38:23):
I think it just comes from there.
It's not like, oh, you know, Ihave values and I implemented them,
but it just comes from a personalstudy, uh, story to my opinion.
Geri (38:36):
What do you do to look after your mental health now?
Özge (38:39):
I do, what do I do?
Um, I keep space between stressful things.
Like, instead of planning stressfulmeetings on the same day, I put one
meeting a day and then keep space forless stressful and more fun things things.
as much as I can.
I walk in the woods.
(39:01):
It's a bit of a privilege ofliving very outside of the city.
I walk, every day, at least 30 minutes.
Cats are great in Istanbulfor the mental health.
Like, uh, you know, you can tryto walk with a cat, all the time.
And, and of course, I surround myselfwith people who understands me.
(39:23):
I actually give thisadvice to many people.
that you should work people, withpeople, whom you can get along with
and prioritize this more than the topic.
That's my understanding.
Like rather than really jumping into everydiversity inclusion topic that happens
(39:43):
in the school and around me, I reallywork with people, uh, who are working
on diverse topics, but we're reallyinterested into building this forward.
In a, say, in a less relevant area,like a high tech, a new high technology
thing, augmented reality, I don't know,something like that, you know, or, hybrid
(40:07):
type textiles, or things like that.
Geri (40:12):
So not being driven by playing the game in a way, but being
driven by staying true to yourself.
Özge (40:20):
We're still playing the game.I mean, it's really hard to say, oh,
I'm out of the game, by the way.
It's, it's, it's impossible.
Especially on my age where Istill need to work another 20
years to my official retirement.
So, I try to find potentials, likepotential places within the game where
(40:42):
it's pretty untouched and, maybe youcan go in and try something different
because no one is really interested in to.
I mean, I, I take thesekind of risks, let's say,
Geri (40:56):
Have you got an example?
Özge (41:00):
um, maybe for instance, things that I do with the city councils here
in Istanbul, uh, we look into, look intotopics where you cannot easily convert to
money or technology or, you know, and Iwent to them just based on my interest.
(41:23):
Um, but from this communication and fromthe initial more, um, let's say mainstream
workshops we have done about accessibilityof the city, is the city accessible
to everyone, or is it safe for women?
We moved to a communication where wecan talk about, non human potentials
(41:48):
of the city, what do we have, whatabout the green areas in the city,
and like one of my students is workingon this topic as a PhD, and it really
organically grow from that collaborations,communications, tools we have used.
So we didn't really build onaccessibility issue and said, uh,
(42:09):
okay, let's build an app that showsall the accessible spots in the city.
But we went with this relationshipsand, um, tried things that
were not in their agenda.
Geri (42:23):
Sounds good.
Can I go back to the depression andduring the PhD and writing that up?
So you were working with us at thatpoint, when you were writing up your PhD.
Okay.
Özge (42:44):
writing a PhD was a long journey.
And so I think it was before that.
It was before that it was even beforemy job Before the university, I had a
long period where I wrote my PhD andI'm writing a PhD in an art university.
It's a very free space.
(43:05):
I was not funded by my PhD, butI was doing research and teaching
assistantship on different schools.
Um, and it was that time, it cameback and it, it used to do with many
things, I think, because like, mentalhealth can go really worse very easily.
(43:28):
Actually, we don't realize thatuntil it is at a certain stage that
it can be diagnosed, more or less.
Geri (43:37):
yeah,
Özge (43:38):
Did you want to ask a particular thing?
Geri (43:41):
I think I was
wanting to reflect on myself becauseI was head of the group that you
were in and we were working togetherfrom 2000 10 basically until 18.
And I never knew that, that youhad a background with depression.
(44:05):
And I just wonder, is theresomething that I could have done
differently as leader of the group to
make it okay to talk about or, youknow, um, yeah, or just could I have
done different things to support you.
Özge (44:28):
It was like the period before I was working at the university.
And thank you, but I think you'vedone really well always, all the time.
It's, it's nice to have someonewho you can cry with, love
with, and then work together.
It's a very accommodatingenvironment for, for someone like me.
(44:49):
Um, I think the time I had that Itwas more of, um, a lot of things
coming all together, includinga kind of an asocializing.
Uh, and at that time I was like,I said, loosely connected to work
environments, loosely connected to school.
I was not a student anymore, butnot a part of a community as well.
(45:16):
And I think, being relocated,dealing with all types of issues
around that, all added up to that,together with the stress of, about
your future, about your, um, familysituation, that you cannot really help.
You know, things pile up together, andif you are already a bit vulnerable in
(45:37):
the beginning, it can easily get worse.
Geri (45:39):
Mm, Mm, Mm.
Özge (45:44):
And, um, and also like, um, having therapy in a language that you
are on B2 level is not super helpful.
It was the times where you wouldn't.
receive help in Turkish, forinstance, in, in Austria.
I think it's different now, by the way.
Um, and it's a good thing.
(46:05):
And school support was really loose.
Um, I remember, I don'tknow if it's any better.
It's a slightly bit better at ourplace now, but still, you don't
have one door, that you can knockwhen you're not feeling all right.
You know, it's still.
Um, and this is something that we,we do at Futurewell, by the way.
(46:25):
You can just come over and havea cup of tea with us and we can
just chat and we prioritize that.
Geri (46:34):
Mm.
Özge (46:34):
because I mean, half an hour of a tea drinking will not really
make me less successful, I believe.
Uh, yeah.
Geri (46:44):
So it's, it's not a big cost.
So that connects nicely to whatyou've done in leading your own
group, where you've set up thisculture statement, for the group
about how you look after wellbeing.
Do you wanna talk aboutthat a little bit more?
Özge (47:04):
Yes.
Starting from the early times, forFuturewell, but also like maybe
my time at IGW, uh, as well.
I was more like,
Geri (47:15):
IGW, being the group that we worked in together, just for
Özge (47:20):
Uh, uh, yeah, I think I just realized that I was seeing.
clearly that people were struggling.
You know, it's, it's sometimes they evencalled my room, the dark room, to cry.
Some people in the group, becauseit was at the end of the corridor.
It's super disconnected.
So if you go and cry there, no oneapart from me will know about it.
(47:44):
I don't know if it may, it was really,you know, extra inclusive or something,
but I remember we joked about that.
Um, so.
I wanted to have the samething in my group as well.
It should be a place where people canopenly talk about their problems, um,
more than small chitchat, maybe even.
(48:06):
Um, so we didn't hang anything on thedoor, but if you know it, um, You know
it like if you just come to the roomfor another purpose and like you are a
little bit shaking people first ask youto sit down and have a tea and then we
will talk about whatever you want to aska little bit later and people usually
(48:29):
sit and after having their tea theythey either tell or sit in silence.
But you understand that they don't cometo that room just because they want
to ask for a signature or something.
Sometimes, you know,there's more connection.
Geri (48:43):
Mm.
Özge (48:44):
Um, so, another thing was like to really reflect on things at the time.
Like, when COVID came, for instance,uh, most people kept working.
Like, they just moved to Zoomand kept working like before.
(49:04):
And we said, okay.
It will be hard times, because, you know,it sounds like it will be hard times.
What about having a short checkin every day, where we talk about
just the day, and if people wantto have questions, then they can.
Want to ask questions, they can.
(49:26):
And things like that.
I cannot give a recipe for thesekind of caring acts, uh, let's say.
Um, but it's, it all reflected.
to our teaching, for instance, lateron, to more importantly, to our remedial
exams, amnesty exams, you know, I don'tknow if you have them, but in Turkish
culture, in Turkish system, if you fail aclass, you can receive some extra exams.
(49:56):
If you fail a couple of classes, butyou are in the situation of graduation,
you can, get, uh, other types of exams,just all at the same week, et cetera.
And, these are like traditionalexams and some people have.
stress about this because theexams decide their future more or
(50:17):
less if they can graduate or not.
So I was just, building them differently.
Like I was talking to students andgiving them the option that they can
submit in advance and if I, if they fail,they can resubmit a better version or
because you cannot extend the deadline.
The deadline is centralBut you can start earlier.
(50:41):
Things like that.
And, um, I think thisaccommodated a lot of people.
A lot.
I mean, I don't know, but at leastthis accommodated the people who
were on our door and asking for help.
I cannot say a lot of people,but it helped some people.
Another thing is like, um, thephysical access basically, If you
(51:02):
cannot get physical access, you canactually, um, get collaborative access.
If you don't have the opportunityto put a stairs to somewhere, You can
have the person, yeah, hold them andhave them jump or, you know, there are
different types of access and it wasa lot of understanding these things,
(51:24):
learning and trying to accommodate.
One, one, one simple thing is like, oneof my colleagues with wheelchair, he
told me that he cannot come to my room.
And I didn't know why, because my roomis just next to the elevator and it's
one of the most accessible places.
And later on he said, uh, becauseI have accumulated artistic
(51:46):
stuff, stuff behind the door.
The door is not fully opening.
And I was like, you know,this is intersectional.
My artistic practice and theirmaterial conflicts with this.
Um, but you know, learning how torestructure your environment in a
way, just putting just very smallthings, open communication allows
(52:08):
you to correct them a little
Geri (52:10):
Mm.
Özge (52:11):
And, and grow your, um, empathy.
Geri (52:15):
Yeah.
Özge (52:16):
Because you start looking at where are the other things, where are
the other doors that are not fullyopening or, uh, or when I am working,
with disabled students and they cannotfind my room or the class where we
are teaching, then you know that the,braille maps are not perfectly working.
(52:36):
Because we have braille maps.
Basically, we have greataccessibility support in our campus.
In contrary to common belief, uh,it's an awarded, like, accessibility
awarded campus, basically.
But still, it doesn't mean that peoplecan use them easily, can find these
maps easily, um, and things like that.
Geri (52:55):
Mm.
Yeah.
And, and more lovely examples of theway you enact care, you know, like you
live out your care value on a day today, both in how you engage in your
teaching and using the space you haveto innovate or interpret the central
(53:18):
rules about deadlines, to supportstudents and also just The openness
to respond to students needs as theycome up and to keep growing yourself.
In just looking at wrapping up.
Are there any things that we haven'ttalked about that you'd like to talk
(53:41):
about or share while we're here?
Are there any things about, I don'tknow, any particular sort of challenges
around working in Turkey with, say theeconomic constraints there and trying
to engage in an international community?
Because you talked before, for example,about Participating in some online
(54:04):
committees and professional serviceroles, and they sounded like they
were roles that you could play outonline, and I know that a lot of our
communities also encourage, rely on,reward physical travel, for example.
Özge (54:22):
Uh that's a good point that we can talk about.
I think there are a couple of thingsthat many people whom you also
talk with, who are not living inEurope or US, um, tell the same.
There are differences.
They are not necessarily weakness orstrength, but there are different things.
(54:43):
Like one issue is that doesn'tapply to me, but that applies to
my team members or my colleagues.
Most of the time, thevisa issue, for instance,
Geri (54:52):
Um, Uh, Um,
Özge (54:52):
It's not only the travel.
I mean, most people would just say,okay, I will travel three hours and it's
a bit of a harder task than 20 minutes.
Though, if you're living in Turkey, Andwe work on a very sharp political climate.
We struggle, and in Istanbul westruggle, with megacity problems
(55:14):
and in comparison, like, you know,commute to the airport is a fun
activity you would do for three hours.
It's not the problem.
But then the visa issue, like the lowacceptance of visas, for instance,
currently in Europe, Was a big dealfor us because like two of my students
(55:35):
on two different times were rejectedwith an accepted conference paper.
And this can be end of their career.
They're PhD students and we barely putthe money together as a, um, research
group, um, they got funding from theconference organizers, for instance,
(55:58):
thanks to everyone who supported this typeof travel funding, because we really, I
mean, we couldn't pay anything about, youknow, about the entrance fees, et cetera.
Another point, but then the visa costs,they, their families take care of it
and sometimes our graduate school, ofcourse, and then the visa is rejected.
(56:18):
Think about the monetary aspect, theeffort they put in and the irrelevance
of such a paperwork to their life.
PhDs or to their paper writing.
And then they really need todeal with on a daily basis.
This means even if their visasare approved, they can only book
on very last minute flights,which is much more expensive.
(56:40):
They can only book in a hotel onthe very last days, which means they
usually live outside and cannot reallybe part of the cultural activities.
This is a huge, huge burden for us.
All the time.
I said my students and my team.
Um, were lucky and travel funding.
(57:04):
But if you don't have travel funding,I mean, they have a bit of a budget
here, but like the expectationof interaction design area of
publishing, it's just really a lot.
And if they want postdoc positions,they need to publish, they need
to be present, they need to attendthe workshops to make friends.
(57:24):
Um, and it's impossible because like,you know, Euro versus Turkish Lira.
The money that we get as salaries or assupport, it just like melts so easily.
it's impossible to keeppace with that as well.
Um, for me, the most, most challengingthing, but not a big, big challenge
(57:50):
in comparison to two things that Imentioned is usually the time zones.
Like when you have servicemeetings, of course, people want
to have them towards the end oftheir day, like as a last thing.
So end of your day at five o'clock or 4.
30 in Europe is my dinner more or less.
Geri (58:10):
Mm,
Özge (58:11):
Um, but I mean, people were so accommodating.
For instance, StaceyBranham and Sarah Volks.
I mean, they wanted to take 6am in themorning sometimes so that our students
are not presenting in the middle ofthe night or, you know, and I just
really, I, I was so taken care of.
I couldn't really say, uh, it was abig problem, but in general, let's say
Geri (58:34):
yeah.
Özge (58:35):
that people need to take care of more or
Geri (58:37):
Mm,
Özge (58:39):
Uh, and, of course my university and other universities in Turkey
who are struggling for success.
Um, they are evaluated with U.
S.
systems, like, they are competingfor the same ranking as the U.
S.
schools.
And this puts a pressureon everything that they do.
(59:02):
Um, everything has to be a kind of a U.
S.
like, for instance, me being evaluatedby 12 international professors to keep
my position, or, you know, and then eachprofessor in tenure track has the same.
And think about the amount of servicework the deans have to do, the
coordinator has to do, coordinatorshas to do, and the number of letters
(59:26):
the international people need to write.
So these type of things.
Um, I think that I cannot change, butI'm looking and observing them closely
and try to find potential to, to raisevoice maybe because they don't seem
very fitting and uh, and accommodating.
(59:46):
But on the other hand, I don'thave any other solution because
like it comes from a global system.
They try to be like, myuniversity is in top 500.
Um, in, and it's a research one universitywith a lot of ERC grants, and this is a
huge success for a university from Turkey,with all the struggles piling together.
(01:00:10):
Um, so they are trying to keep theirspace, I mean, uh, keep their spot
and they're playing the game and itreflects back to us more or less.
Geri (01:00:22):
mm,
Özge (01:00:22):
This is a lot of things.
And one last thing.
I want to see more peopletraveling to Turkey.
That would be nice.
I think none of the majorconferences were held in Turkey, and
people were not that frequently.
I mean, our department is, uh,having guest speakers every year,
(01:00:45):
international guest speakers.
Um, but.
The more people invest into othercountries, not only Turkey, the
more connected we are, and thenthe less biased, the less biased
everyone is, like, you know.
So that the less tension we haveacross countries and I think this can
(01:01:07):
only help having a more inclusive,uh, interaction design area.
I don't know
Geri (01:01:14):
And it's, it's growing the empathy that you talked about
before, isn't it, in, in doing that?
Özge (01:01:20):
exactly, I mean, just commuting three hours from the airport helps
understanding why you don't, whythe other person is just a bit not
wishing to travel that frequently.
Geri (01:01:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I know that being in Vienna, I can popup to Denmark for a meeting for the day
and come back the same day because asyou said, the app was really accessible
and that's just not an option you have.
Yeah.
Özge (01:01:47):
no, just, uh, yeah, but it's cutting travel.
Cutting travel is a learning as well.
Geri (01:01:56):
And, well, uh, yes, and cutting travel is a learning.
So there's some ways in which maybe theincreasing emphasis on sustainability and
the increasing critical reflection we'reseeing around the amount of academic
travel, and whether that's a good thingor not, can also be an inclusive measure
that may result in other initiativesthat could help countries where it is a
(01:02:19):
little bit more difficult to travel from.
Özge (01:02:21):
Um,
Geri (01:02:23):
Yeah, Özge we should wrap up and thank you so much for giving me
this time and just for sharing yourperspectives and I really appreciate you
and your commitment to staying true towho you are and really navigating that
(01:02:43):
path through and making it work and evenwhere there are trade offs, you know,
you, you articulated those trade offsin a way that were constructive still.
And, you show an example of how youcan make those trade offs and still
feel good, and still make them work.
Özge (01:03:05):
I think, I should thank to you and people like you, uh, who are
trying to open these conversationsto public, who are trying to
accommodate them all the time.
Because I think this gave methe power to look into the
dark and weak sides of things.
(01:03:26):
Um, just an accommodating environmentand community really helps to reflect.
On these things, so if it's asuccess, it's a collaborative one, for
Geri (01:03:36):
and we're all part of that community in creating that space for one another.
So thank you, and it's good.
Özge (01:03:45):
Thank you.
Geri (01:03:49):
You can find the summary notes, a transcript, and related
links for this podcast on www.
changingacademiclife.
com.
You can also subscribe toChanging Academic Life on iTunes,
Spotify, and Google Podcasts.
And I'm really hoping that we canwiden the conversation about how
we can do academia differently.
(01:04:10):
And you can contribute to this by ratingthe podcast and also giving feedback.
And if something connected with you,please consider sharing this podcast
with your colleagues together.
We can make change happen.
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