Sharing my story with Nutan Limaye (CAL117, S6E11)

In this episode the tables are turned and I'm being interviewed by Nutan Limaye who hosts the ‘Life of a Researcher’ podcast.  Nutan is an Assoc. Professor at the IT University Copenhagen. We met when she was a participant in one of our residential academic leadership development courses in 2024.  

We talk about my unconventional career path starting in social work, moving into nursing and midwifery, then finding myself in computer science and human-computer interaction, and now doing more leadership and academic development work. As with many career stories, serendipity figures a lot, along with a strong people-centred red thread that weaves through all the various turns. 

Nutan also asks about how the academic leadership development courses came about, and how we facilitate learning experiences on hard topics like challenging conversations. And we talk about themes that have arisen in the podcast. Along the way we also touch on interdisciplinarity, and academic mobility and what is home. This is a slightly edited conversation from the version she released end of June 2024, shared with her permission.

I'm releasing this now as a complement to my careers article in the Feb 25 edition of Communications of the ACM

Overview

00:29 Introduction

02:41 Nutan's Introduction to the Podcast

05:09 An Unconventional Career Path

07:34 Transition to Computer Science

11:08 Shaping Interests around People-Centred Perspectives

14:21 How Research Evolved as Technology Evolved

17:14 Reflections on Changing Paths

23:12 The Challenges of Interdisciplinary Research

28:03 Supervision Serendipity

34:21 Leadership and People-Centred Academia

42:21 Designing Learning Experiences about Challenging People and Conversations

48:23 Insights from the Session

50:06 Motivation and Themes of the Changing Academic Life Podcast

55:41 Academic Mobility and the Concept of Home

01:05:13 Non-Rapid Fire Questions and Reflections

01:14:11 Outro

01:15:00 End

Related Links:

Nutan Limaye 

Life of a Researcher podcast and episode A conversation with Geraldine Fitzpatrick

Nutan’s LinkedIn profile 

My CACM article:

Geraldine Fitzpatrick, Fit for People, Fit for Purpose: Designing Tech that Matters, CACM, Feb 2025 Issue, Vol. 68No. 2, Page 7.

Other CAL Episodes mentioned:

Sarah Davies - two parts:

• On mobility, precarity and notions of excellence
• On luck,...

Episode Transcript

Geri (00:05):
Welcome to Changing Academic Life.
I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick and this isa podcast series where academics and
others share their stories, provideideas and provoke discussions about what
we can do individually and collectivelyto change academic life for the better.

(00:29):
This is going to be a very different sortof episode because the tables are turned
and I'm being interviewed by Newton.
Limaye.
Who hosts the life ofa researcher podcast.
Newton is an associate professorat the it university Copenhagen.
And we met when she was a participantin one of our residential academic

(00:51):
leadership development courses in 2024.
In this conversation, she asked meabout my, uh, what, what you might
call my unconventional career paththat starts in social work and
moves into nursing and midwifery.
And then where I eventually findmyself in computer science and human
computer interaction, and now doing moreleadership and academic development work.

(01:17):
As with many career stories, especiallythe ones that I also hear in, in my own
podcast, serendipity figures, a lot.
And what was also interesting for meto reflect on was the strong people
centered thread that weaves through allthe various, what seem to be disparate
turns and provide some coherence.

(01:39):
She also asks how the leadershipcourses came about and how we go about
facilitating, learning experienceson topics that can be a little
bit challenging to discuss, likehow to deal with difficult people.
We also talk about some of the themesthat have arisen in my podcast.
And along the way we touch on othertopics, like interdisciplinarity

(02:02):
and academic mobility.
And the interesting questionof what is home for those of
us who do move around a lot.
Newton has a lovely presence and style.
And I'll include a link to herpodcast on this episode, web page.
So that you can follow up and listen tosome of her other conversations there.

(02:28):
I know that I really enjoyedmy conversation with her.
And I hope you enjoy this slightlyedited version from what she
released at the end of June, 2024.

Nutan (02:41):
Hello, everyone.
Welcome to Life of a Researcher.
As you know, on this podcast,we meet academic researchers
and share their stories.
We chat about what got them wherethey are and what keeps them going.
The hope is that these conversationswill make the field of research
accessible to young people.
It will show how we can have very verydifferent starting points and yet land

(03:05):
up forming a career as a researcher.
My first introduction to today's guestwas through a centering exercise.
You know the kind that helps you focusinward and away from external thoughts?
Those who know me well would knowthat I'm not one to take part
in centering exercises unless asocial situation forces me to.

(03:25):
In this case, I was attendinga two day leadership course.
Those who know me well would alsoknow that I'm not typically one to
sign up for a leadership course.
But someone I trust praised thecourse a lot and spoke highly of it.
So here I was, half heartedly attendinga course and within that, half heartedly

(03:47):
participating in this centering exercise.
While I started from such areluctant place, the next two days
forced me to change my preconceivednotions about the course.
This was partly because, andthanks to, the guest in today's
episode, Geraldine Fitzpatrick.
She was one of the twofacilitators of this course.

(04:09):
In the next two days, I wouldinteract a lot with her.
I instantly felt admirationand warmth for Geraldine.
I had to have her on the show, notjust because she made me change my
mind about something, which she did.
But also because her inspiring andrather unconventional career path,

(04:30):
as you may very well know, dearlistener, that That's precisely what
we try to showcase in this podcast.
So, without further ado, let us startthe conversation with Geraldine.

(04:57):
Hi, Geraldine.

Geri (04:59):
Hello Nutan.

Nutan (05:00):
Welcome to the podcast.
Thank you for doing this.

Geri (05:03):
Thank you for inviting me.
Very happy to do it.

Nutan (05:06):
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
Um, like I said in my introduction withoutmentioning any details, your career path
was, as you described it during the, um,leadership course, very unconventional
from, What I've seen and I would like youto take us to maybe the beginning of this.
So where did you start?

(05:30):
It's it's going to bea surprise for everyone

Geri (05:34):
So, where did I start um, I often joke that I'm still trying to
work out what I want to be when Igrow up I I started off from school
enrolling in social work at universityand dropped out in that first year.
And when I look back now, I jokedit was because I spent too much

(05:57):
time You know, uh, sitting and ina pub and drinking gin and tonics.
But really it was about notfeeling at home or comfortable
in the university setting at all.
And just really out of my depth andthrough lots of other serendipitous
moves, I ended up training as a registerednurse and then also as a midwife and

(06:20):
I worked in hospitals for a while andthen we set up private practice, uh,
the first midwives in our state to dothat because we wanted to really offer
women centered care that we didn'tthink the system was doing at the time.
And again, through a whole lot ofseries of events in that I ended up

(06:43):
Thinking about going back to universityand actually doing a degree and I
had restarted a science degree by thescenic route, which was, you know,
whatever was on on a Tuesday night.
So when I went to the Dean to getadvice, saying that I wanted to come
to university full time and I'd neverreally thought about structuring
the science degree properly.
What would he suggest?

(07:04):
And he pointed me, directed me verystrongly to this new information
technology degree course they had started.
And I didn't realize then thatthis was the first cohort and they
were having trouble filling thequota of students for the cohort.
So he did a good sales job andit sort of fitted some other life

(07:25):
possible aspirations around familyand flexibility of work that,
uh, some of the sort of nursingmidwifery didn't particularly offer.
And so I went and did a computerscience degree, which was radically
different to anything I'd ever donebefore, and ended up staying on and

(07:45):
doing research through a PhD and yeah.

Nutan (07:51):
Yeah, no, that's commendable.
I mean, I don't know too manypeople who do a full fledged career
working as a nurse, for example, andthen start kind of all over again.
And I noticed that you kind of did alittle bit of yada, yada, yada, a bunch of
circumstances that led you to take this.
But could you maybe say a little moreabout this if you're comfortable?

Geri (08:14):
Yeah, we, we had um, I loved doing the private midwifery work.
Because we really built up relationshipswith women and the families and we
knew that we could make a differenceto their birthing experience, which
is such an important event for people.

(08:35):
And it was also very demanding becausewe were on call 24 hours a day and, it
was a lot of responsibility, and therewas a lot of political dramas that we
were dealing with as well, because wewere really quite radical at that time,
and, and trying to change the system.
And so, Mark and I had been livingoverseas for a couple of years because

(08:56):
he's from Ireland and his family wereover there and so we'd been away for
a couple of years and Coming backto Australia, because I should say
all of this happened in Australia.
Um, I didn't want to get fully involvedin the medical system again, um, because
of the demands, and it was exhausting,even though I loved the actual work.

(09:19):
And, so I, I, I wanted to go backto university and study and at the
time, this is the very beginning ofthe professionalization of nursing
degrees, or people who'd been trainedin the hospital system going back
and doing postgraduate studies in theuniversity to upgrade their skills.
But they were coming back to the samecareer path, the same pay structure,

(09:41):
and I didn't see anything gained.
And I also had a very intensive course.
It was 30 plus hours contact at the time.
So I thought if I'm going togo back to uni and study hard,
I'd rather study something thatopened up different possibilities.
And Part of the reasoning for actuallythinking that I, you know, maybe the

(10:03):
computer science would work out wasthat my husband is in a technical field.
He's a very technical personcompared to my own particular
strengths in this domain.
And we figured that, when we had kids,We could get contract work on the
basis of his expertise, and he couldmonitor it, and it could be work that

(10:23):
I could work on at home, in between,looking after the kid, or whatever.
Now, As life happens, we weren'table to have any kids in the end.
And so, like, the very reason fordoing the degree wasn't for love of
maths or, those sorts of challengingproblems, but more about the flexibility
and lifestyle it would offer.

(10:44):
Because nursing also meant part timework was evenings or weekends or night
duty, which isn't very family friendly.
So, yeah, so I found myselfin a career path where I'm
going, what am I doing here?
So, yeah.
Although the thing about not beingable to have kids isn't, there's
not ever any really clean cut pointof where that's clear, you always

(11:06):
sort of keep hoping, I guess.
And yeah, and I think that one of thethings that really is interesting about
informatics, even though the core degreecourse was very technical, because
it's applying technology to so manydifferent domains in everyday life,
I was still able to find the peopleoriented, people centered perspectives

(11:31):
that when I look back have been part ofthe red thread of everything I've done.
You know, when we were doingmidwifery, it was the women
centered care in technology.
It's the people centered aspects oftechnology that I've cared about.
And I've also been able to marrythe interests in healthcare and
technology as well in, in research.

(11:53):
Yeah, there was a time when Ifinished the degree and I was looking
at doing further studies and I wasthinking, what am I doing here?
And I did look at, do I move toinformation economics or do I look at
doing law or do I look at doing medicine?
And I did look at doingvarious other things.
But I ended up staying and doing a PhD.

Nutan (12:13):
Yeah.
And great for computer science on that.
Yeah.
That you stayed.
So could you say a little more about yourwork in computer science, because I'm not
an expert in the area, but I know you arein your area and very well known at that.
So could you say a little bitabout what kind of work you do?

Geri (12:30):
Yeah, um, it's, it's changed a lot over the years and that I, again, I
think one of the interesting things abouttaking a concern for the people and,
you know, design and societal aspectsof technology is there are always new
challenges as the technology evolvesand it creates new opportunities and

(12:51):
possibilities as well as new challenges.
And so that a lot of the work.
Has been in some ways, I guess, responsiveto the technologies at the time.
I started off in the earlydays of distributed systems.
So.
My PhD work was really lookingat how to support and enable
people to collaborate together andthat social interaction aspect.

(13:15):
And the research area I published inwas early on was called the Computer
Supported Cooperative Work, CSCW.
And I have since also sort of expandeda lot of the concerns to more broadly
the human computer interaction area,which is a very broad umbrella.
And we've played that out in allsorts of different technology domains,

(13:39):
whether that's also catching the waveof the early ubiquitous technologies
and tangible technologies and mobiledevices and thinking about what are
some application domains that are doingsome stuff in the learning space, in the
healthcare space, in well being spaces.
So, , We've played it out inlots of different domains.

Nutan (14:01):
Yeah.
Thank you for that.
And thank you for explaining it like this.
I think human computer interaction hasbeen, uh, has been an important concept.
And now with AI, maybe it's again, inanother context, equally relevant, right?

Geri (14:18):
So even, even more so.
Even more so, perhaps.
This is, this is what's made it such afascinating area to do research in because
a lot of our contributions aren't justapplication or domain specific, they're,
but they're theoretical, conceptual,and they're also methodological.
Because when we were, just dealing with,you know, in the very, very early 1980s,

(14:42):
when people were doing work, say, at thehuman computer interaction level, it was
drawing on a lot of cognitive scienceand, limits of memory and how many items
in a drop down list and that sort of thatvery basic sort of interaction stuff.
And then when we dealt with peoplenetwork together, we were having to draw
on more sociological, anthropologicalconcepts, which were about people

(15:05):
and groups and social interaction.
And, The tangible devices, again, we'vegot, we draw more on some of the design
aesthetics and, and material sciences and,some different engineering disciplines.
And now with AI, we don't have that.
A lot of our methods to datehave in some way relied on

(15:26):
being able to observe people.
interacting together withand through a device.
But increasingly a lot of our interactionswith technology are much more implicit.
And so that creates all sortsof different challenges.
It's about how do we understandpeople and contexts of use and

(15:47):
their needs and what might begood technologies to support them.
And AI is creating even morechallenges now because it's not
only implicit, but it has these farreaching effects and implications.
And in not just shaping, I don't knowwhether those lights come on in the
smart room when I walk in or not,but What democracy means, you know,

(16:13):
how do our elections get carried out?
I mean, it has much, moresignificant societal implications.
So yes, there's an ever increasingneed and we're increasingly needing
to draw on different disciplines, Ithink, to help answer these questions.
Yeah, it's much more complex.

Nutan (16:34):
I wonder whether at the end of this conversation, you're going
to convert my research interests, but
that was a very passionate.

Geri (16:42):
Everybody, everybody should do their own.
Exactly.

Nutan (16:45):
I think absolutely.
No, that was just a joke because youalready converted me once before, right?
With the leadership.
No, but, uh, uh, I mean, thisjourney sounds really fascinating.
And what I hear.
Again and again is your, uh,passion driven journey, right?
So nursing was because you were interestedin people and then, then coming back to

(17:09):
it, back to research, and then now youspeak so passionately about your research.
So it's, it seems like avery passion driven journey.
I wonder whether this was alwaysthe case for you when you were a
child, was it an organic process,or were there situations where you
were like, Oh, all this is great.
But you know, I questionedthis, I questioned that.

(17:31):
What was what was the internaldialogue on some of these occasions?
I asked this just because some people,when they are changing fields, especially,
I mean, this is very rare in general,but People are a bit scared, you know,
I mean, this jump from one professionto another is hard, and it's amazing
you did it, but maybe if you can sharea couple of thought processes that

(17:56):
were going on, it would really help.
I know it's a sudden question, but

Geri (18:02):
No, it's an interesting question.
And I think part of the answer is.
It's tied up with the fact thatI've never had a career ambition.

Nutan (18:13):
Oh, that's very interesting.
Yeah.

Geri (18:18):
And I'd like to cast that.
in the, I go with the flow andjust just see where it takes me.
But it's only more recently that I'vereflected on the fact that it is was
very much my own imposterism that drovethat, that I wasn't, not that I wasn't

(18:39):
allowed to have a career ambition.

Nutan (18:43):
You, yourself, perhaps,

Geri (18:45):
yeah, my, my parents never even went to high school.
So I had no role models, ingrowing up in this growing up.
And I remember when I first deferredwhen I, when I said I left university, I
deferred for a year and I didn't go back.
And when I went home to say I wasmaking the decision to defer from uni.

(19:08):
I know that if I was in the situationas a parent now, with the knowledge and
experiences I have, I would have a verydifferent conversation with the person
saying, you know, what's going on andwhat, you know, to try to get to it.
Whereas they had no understandingor insight to even ask a question.
It was just, Well, whatever youthink, and I didn't know what to think.

(19:30):
I was just scared and out of mydepth and had no strategies for how
to handle study or, to feel likeI belonged or that I could do this.
And so I, it, it didn'tfeel like big changes.
It was, um, You know, I, and I didgo with the flow, you know, there

(19:51):
was a serendipitous thing that,because I'd never thought about
doing nursing, I was just not sure Iwanted to go back and do social work.
So I was just applying foreverything in that year I took off.
And this happened to be the firstthing I got offered, within two weeks
of, you know, thinking I wouldn'thave to make a decision until the
January and two weeks in August.
And I got this offer and I went,Oh, I'll just give it a go.

(20:13):
And then.
It's more characteristic of when Istart something, I stick with it.
So when I started thenursing, I stuck with it.
When I started the computerscience degree, I stuck with it.
So it's more some of that,perseverance and stickability than
any feeling like I've changed careers.

(20:36):
And so in not having any career ambition,I've always had a passion for people and
supporting people and creating enablingenvironments for people and whether that
was starting a student council at schoolbecause we didn't have a student voice
in the running of the school or, doing,doing lots of different things that

(20:58):
I would do with my spare time when Iwas a teenager that were all directed
at enabling and supporting people.
So that has always been there andI've been able to play that out,
um, or can reconnect to that indifferent ways, regardless of what

(21:19):
external looking career path it is.
There's that, that internalthread that's always there.
Yeah.

Nutan (21:26):
Oh, that's very beautifully put.
So, I mean, with passion and then withthis thing, philosophy that, Oh, if I
start this, I should see the end of it.
Right.
And then, maybe serendipity.
Not always a good thing.
Not always a good thing,
I think.
Yeah,

Geri (21:40):
Not always a good thing because sometimes you should just say, give up.
Yeah.
Or not give up, move on.
Yeah.
This isn't you.
Yeah.
Move on to do something else.

Nutan (21:50):
No, but I think in some cases it does work in the sense that perseverance,
if lets you exercise your passion, likeit did in your case, then maybe, you
know, it is perhaps a thing that onedoes, but yeah, you have to, you have
to, of course, choose your battles.

Geri (22:06):
You have to, and, and I can look back and I can see the red
threads, and I also recognize thatin the day to day, living out of
this, I've often felt like a misfit.
Um, when I did my computer, my PhDin Australia, we didn't even have
HCI as a course in my degree program.

(22:26):
And I had a wonderful supervisor thenwho could, Correct my English and I
still have enormous respect for him,but he didn't know anything about
the area and I had to start readingfrom the very first proceeding.
So I did go through multiple.
Oh, what am I doing?
I'm going to give up.

(22:47):
And yes, it hasn't been without its angst.
And even within computer sciencefaculties now, I think that it's been
hard to do human computer interactionresearch because it's often not regarded
with the same seriousness as, youknow, people who do more, you know,

(23:08):
technical, theoretical computer science.
So.

Nutan (23:12):
And I think it is one of the most interdisciplinary fields.
So I think it requires a lot more,I wouldn't say a lot more, but very
diverse set of skills and knowledgefrom different areas, right?
And this is oftenunderappreciated, I feel.

Geri (23:26):
Yes.

Nutan (23:27):
Yeah.
And I was wondering, like you said,you felt like a misfit in the sense
that, you know, It was some, sofirstly, I can imagine, I mean, this
is just completely my hypothesis.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
But if you're coming from a nursingbackground and coming into computer
science already, there is like,maybe all your fellow classmates are
doing, you know, they know some interms that you don't, for example.

(23:50):
And then when you go for HCI for yourPhD, again, there are other people
who kind of at least have this feelingthat they know what they're saying.
And then you are tryingto find your vocabulary.
So, These phases where your footing seemslike it's not so solid as somebody else
who's travel, your co traveller, right?
What was that phase like?

(24:12):
And how were you, um, kind ofdealing with it internally?

Geri (24:16):
And I can personify that very accurately in terms of the discussions
I had in my head about A wonderfulcolleague I had as a PhD student, we
went through our degrees together, andwe were both doing PhDs at the same time.
And he did for his PhD something thathe'd worked on for his honours year,
which was the equivalent of Master's,so, and it was in formal specification,

(24:41):
so he did this in his honours degree,and then he focused on it in his
PhD, and he finished within the threeyears, and, you know, did really well.
And I remember often looking on himand going, Oh, if only I could be
like Jason, you know, because he'sso organized and he's got, he's so
focused and he knows what he's doing.

(25:01):
And then I thought I'd say to myself,no, but I would be bored, silly because
I like a different sort of challenge.
I like the fact that I need to connectto different disciplines and I, I need to
embrace complex contexts of work and life,and because I would do more qualitative

(25:24):
methods rather than experimentalor lab based type work as well.
And so it, in some ways it was harderand messier or hard in a different
way because everything's hard.
But it was what I liked doing and Idid, it was a dialogue that I often
had when I, you know, when I was goingthrough my angst, because I took five

(25:48):
years to do my PhD and there were someother complex reasons in the middle with
my father getting sick and that, butthe number of times I was sort of, you
know, doing the, Oh, what am I doing?
I'm going to give up.
And I would think if only I had donewhat he had done, but then I wouldn't
have the energy and enthusiasm for it.

(26:11):
I wouldn't care about it in the same way.
So, you know, the little price, I guess,of following my people passions, if
you like, where, you know, A bit ofdisorientation, a bit of frustration,
a bit of, angst and that, and when itdid connect or work out, it was great.

Nutan (26:33):
And I try to ask these questions because, you know, somebody who's just
starting out or is facing these challengeslooks at somebody like you and says, Oh,
maybe, you know, This is the end result inspite of this angst in the early stages.
So it suddenly becomes somethingaspirational for somebody who's
looking at you now and says that,okay, maybe this is a matter of time.

(26:54):
You know, I have the passion.
I have the reason to go forward andwake up and do my work every day.
Right.
Like you were saying, like, you feltlike you could show up for this work and
that was something you were enjoying.
And I think this sort of a thing, Ifeel, uh, that you put it out there
is useful for people in my view.
So thanks for doing that actually.

(27:16):
And another thing you said,I was a bit curious for me.
So your area of research wassubstantially different from
your advisor's area of research.
So this must have beenalso quite challenging.
And this happens to students eventoday for Reasons like, okay, I came up
with a problem that I like and I'm notexactly aligned with what my advisor

(27:39):
is doing right now, and but it's stilla very difficult space to navigate.
So I would like you to say a littlebit about how it was for you to
navigate the space where you were tomake Uh, you know, sense of a lot of
literature on your own, while at thesame time, you also said that, you
know, your PhD was a five year PhD.

(28:00):
So your advisor must have beensupportive through these years.
So there's, there's this, uh, twofacets to being an advisor, right?
So, um, First, you may not beable to technically help, but
if you can help in other ways.
So could you kind of tell mea bit about your experience?

Geri (28:16):
Yeah, I should say that I did end up getting a different advisor,
um, for the last couple of years.
And that's part of the story as well.
In that, Stuff happens andhas a way of working out.
My first advisor was wonderful and reallysupportive in whatever way he could.

(28:38):
And, um, he also, we also triedto explore different connections.
So one of his interests wasmore in software engineering.
So we looked at, could we supportCollaboration among software engineers
in, in some of the early days ofbusiness process reengineering and
applied to software process engineeringand it never really grabbed me.

(29:01):
So there were many months spent goingdown, I don't know, rabbit holes that
could have ended up going somewhere,but ended up not, which is fine.
I can look back now and say it's fine.
At the time it can feel like thatwas a wasted X months, but it wasn't.
There was always lots to learn andyou could always also draw connections

(29:23):
across to where you were heading.
And I, yes, I always cameback to my own passion.
And what happened again was serendipitousif I was in Europe or something,
there would be much more opportunityfor networking with, because of
proximity and ease of travel and inthose days being in Australia travel

(29:47):
is very expensive, long way away.
My first supervisor, though,was incredibly supportive.
I had the opportunity to go to, uh, oneof the international conferences in the
CSCW area in the early days of my PhD.
And then because we were inthe uk, he also introduced me
to people he knew in the uk.

(30:08):
So I went and visited people.
And some of those contacts I stillhave . But that was about the only.
networking opportunity.
And at one point my universitywas advertising for new professor.
And whenever someone came for a jobinterview, especially for a professor,
they'd hook the professor potentialperson up with a PhD student or two

(30:33):
along with other people just to meet.
And, it just so happenedthat there was a professor who
was working in the CSCW area.
, uh, Who had applied for the job,because it was an open job call.
And not only was he working inCSCW, but working on almost exactly

(30:53):
the same sort of questions thatI'd been asking and focused on.
Like, it was like, youknow, you just mouthed wow.
and it was it was it wasn't even just CSCWbecause there are multiple different sort
of angles that people were researchingbut the just the serendipity that
we're asking the same sort of things.

(31:15):
And he ended up being offered the job.
Before he came over he brought me overto the States and I had a, it was almost
nine months there, as an exchangestudent, working with his group in
the States, and then he brought thatresearch program over to Australia.
And then he became my main supervisor.

(31:38):
Nice.
Um, so he was much moreconnected into the area.
He brought differentstrengths as a supervisor.
I think I probably needed to keep bothof them for complementary strengths.
Yeah.
And, yeah.
And so that's also, um, a recurring theme,I think, when I look back on my career, is

(31:59):
So many things just happen that areSerendipitous, you know, when I
talk to people about their careersas well, that luck, the term luck,
I was just lucky that this professorhappened to apply who had this area of
expertise, and, but that happens a lot.

Nutan (32:18):
Very interesting.
Yeah.

Geri (32:19):
It happens a lot.

Nutan (32:20):
I think it's also maybe that the prepared person is able to
make use of the serendipity, right?
Like, if you had not already thought aboutquestions on your own, you couldn't have
recognized the intersection this personhad with your perhaps potential interests.
The fact that you had done yourreading, you had, you know, tried
to understand things on your own.

(32:42):
So I think, of course,serendipity is a huge, huge thing.
And as you said, actually, many,many researchers or People who are,
uh, doing things which they likeand are doing things at a reasonably
high level seem to claim, uh, thatthey've been lucky and serendipitous
moments have occurred in their lives.

(33:04):
But also, these are the same peoplesometimes who are very prepared
to, uh, when an opportunitycomes knocking at their door.
And I think at least in your case,it's quite clear that you were sort
of gearing up for a visit like this.
Of course, it couldhave happened that way.
This person never visited, right?
So this is a different story altogether,but yeah, very, very interesting.

Geri (33:25):
You're So right, Nutan, that it is, there's something about being open, like
having done the work and being open to.
Yes, that's a fit, that's a connection.

Nutan (33:37):
Exactly.
Exactly.
I mean, there could have been manyother students, but they may not have
been able to cash in on, or cash inis the wrong phrase, I guess, but, you
know, make use of this, uh, perhapsa very good opportunity, a scholar
in the area comes to visit you.
And now, because you've read the paper,yeah, but fantastic story actually, yeah,
very hopeful sort of story actually.

(33:59):
And speaking of advisors, like you said,it was sort of important for you, uh, in
retrospect that That these two people inyour life who played a role of advisors at
the time had these complimentary skills.
It kind of makes me reflect on againon some of the things we were talking

(34:20):
about in the leadership course.
So I wanted to Maybe steer ourconversation slightly towards
the leadership course, but Ithink my dear listener doesn't
know what a leadership course is.
So maybe what I can ask you first, andit's probably better if you answer it
than I, uh, what is a leadership course?
And how did, uh, in terms of my personaljourney, how did you get involved in

(34:42):
designing such a course and delivering?

Geri (34:46):
So, again, it's the people centeredness.
I can talk about people centeredacademia, people centered research
cultures, and how do we createenvironments in which people can thrive.
You know, that red thread since schooldays and it was triggered by increasingly

(35:07):
hearing the same stories from people,and this was back in the mid, 2000, I
don't know, 15, whatever, around thatsort of time, increasingly hear people
talking about being burnt out, stressedout, finding it hard to deliver to all
of the performance criteria, beingpressured by people by leaders to do

(35:32):
work at weekends and evenings and,and I just felt like it wasn't right.
And also everyone thought they were theonly ones and no one was sharing because
we don't talk about those sorts of things.
And so that's about the time I starteda podcast called Changing Academic

(35:55):
Life exactly what you're doing, gettingpeople to just tell their stories.
And just the feedback from that, wherepeople were going, Oh, I never knew that
someone Senior also felt nervous before apresentation or I got ideas for how to run
my group meeting listening to this otherprofessor talk about how they ran their
group and so just the value in sharingthose stories about how we do our work

(36:24):
.And I say like this again is going to tell one of those serendipitous
and prepared mind stories.
I've been running courses at sayconferences about how to say yes
and no and things like that as well.
And I also went and did a master's inapplied positive psychology and coaching

(36:44):
psychology, so that I would have moreto draw on in terms of theoretical
background, as well as practical evidencebased strategies and approaches.
So I'd been doing that and I had asabbatical and I was in Australia at

(37:05):
the time and, uh, someone contactedme to ask me, would I do a keynote
at a conference ? So we were having adiscussion about the keynote and in the
course of it, somehow it came up aboutthe fact that I was doing this master's
program and he said, Oh, would you comeand run a Dean's workshop for us at the

(37:27):
European Computer Science Conference?
And, it just felt like something Ihad to say yes to my gut said, yes.
My head said, what, whatare you doing woman?
And I was at a pointin the degree process.
where I could then shape a lot of the workwhere I could pick a topic to focus more
on leadership and academic leadership.

(37:47):
Um, ran the workshop at this conferencewith very senior Heads of Computer
Science Schools . And, It was ahalf day session and I put in an
enormous amount of preparation work.
Too much, just to cover up myown feelings of inadequacy.
And it was well received andthen following that, other people

(38:09):
asked me to do some work andthat included Informatics Europe.
So again, I said, yes.
And also feeling like I didn'twant to do it on my own.
I just happened to meet Austen ata Dagstuhl seminar and while we
were standing waiting to leave,there was something he said at the

(38:30):
end where again, I just went, he'sthe one I've got to do it with.
So I followed him up afterwards and justsaid, would you like to do this with me?
So we've been running the leadershipcourses for Informatics Europe.
But the angle I think aboutthe leadership is, um, in all
of the research that I did.

(38:51):
People get taught about how to managebudgets or how to do vision statements
and all of that sort of thing.
But when you look at the research,the thing that people always say
is the hardest to deal with isthe people side of leadership and.
Academics are a particular bunch aswell because we're not in typical line,

(39:13):
we are in line management structures,but it's not the same command and
control line management that youmight get in some other sectors.
And so there's this whole notionof our autonomy and independence
and, um, our affiliation to ourprofessional domains as much as our
home departments and universitiesand sometimes their in tension.

(39:36):
You know, it's a complex space and itreally needs different sorts of skill
sets and understandings about how dowe create great environments in which
people can do great research work.
And we very much approach leadership,not just as the big L leader

(39:57):
with their name on the door.
Also recognizing that all of us canplay out leadership behaviors in
how we interact with each other,how we supervise students, how
we manage our research projects.
So very, people centered leadership,uh, people centered cultures, I guess.

Nutan (40:18):
Yeah, fantastic.
Fantastic.
Yeah.
I mean, I was part of this course, right?
And as I said in my introduction, I wentthere as a skeptic, to be honest, you
know, because I was not sure typicalleadership courses that I'd heard of would
give you these generic principles, right?
What could appear as your Facebook postor something, you know, do this, don't

(40:41):
do this, some standard do's and don'ts.
And I was like, okay, Maybe thisis going to be one of those things.
Um, and I was, I was, to be honest,really a skeptic, but like you were
talking right now, uh, the fact that aleader doesn't have to be this person
with a thing on the door, right?
Uh, when I got in there, Iwas like, why am I even here?

(41:03):
I'm not even a leader.
But then I think by the end, you will sortof convince me that, you know, whether
you want it or not, there will be peoplewho will end up , um, relying on you
Some sort of direction and some sortof, uh, overall coherence in, uh, your,
uh, you know, how you conduct yourselfand bring yourself to work typically.

(41:26):
And, uh, this doesn't necessarily have tofall into typical hierarchies, like you
said, but this is bound to happen if youare part of, uh, an academic organization.
So this took some reckoning or, I mean,this was some sort of an understanding
I didn't have before the course.
And then there were Multiple otherthings that I actually, uh, got

(41:48):
sensitized to through your course,and I'm really grateful for that.
A couple of them I wouldlike to specifically mention.
You conducted a session, so for thelisteners, this course was for two
days, uh, close to two days, and itwas on site, so a bunch of us were
there, and Geraldine and Austen werefacilitators for this course, I think

(42:13):
we were around 18 participants or so,and one of the sessions was about,
um, so there were many sessions.
We were made, we were like going throughmultiple activities in different groups,
but one among them was about dealingwith people who are quote unquote
difficult, um, and I think this wasa very illuminating, um, experience.

(42:36):
session for me, because in academicsituations, we are all colleagues.
We are saying there are nohierarchies, but then there are.
And then there are people who would,um, maybe try to impose themselves.
And probably all of us havemet personalities like this.
But at the same time, theyprobably, you know, are not to

(42:56):
be villainized for that, right?
Because they are coming therealso with their own values, and
they are also probably comingthere trying to do something good,
because nobody is in academia forhaving, I mean, without a purpose.
It takes a lot of effort to be inacademia, so if somebody is there, clearly
that person is trying to be there withsome level of purpose, just that maybe

(43:20):
our things don't match or whatever.
So this was quite a, quite aninteresting, um, session for me.
And along those lines,uh, I wanted to know,
um, so as a PhD student or as asenior researcher, we all have people
who one finds hard to deal with.

(43:43):
Maybe if you are the leader or the headof the department or something, then you
have even more responsibility for peoplewho are hard to deal with, perhaps.
But even as a colleague, itsometimes comes in your way
of doing things and so on.
I like the fact that the session wasdone without judgment in some sense.

(44:04):
So what I really want to know is notso much how to deal with difficult
people because that's a topic foranother conversation perhaps, but how
does one envisage a session about this?
So you designed a course whichinvolves this slightly difficult
topic for everyone involved becauseBelieve it or not, each of us have
also been those difficult people,maybe in different, uh, at different

(44:28):
levels or in different magnitudes.
Never, right?
Not us, not us.
Everyone else.
Everyone else, exactly.
But, uh, so it's, it's kind of,To actually say that, okay, we
will have a session about this.
It's a difficult topic.
That's already a decision, right?
And then to design it.
I think it was very clever design.
So what I would like to know, andI think this is a question for both

(44:50):
you and Austen, but now you are here.
So I have to catch you.
How did it come about?

Geri (44:59):
We're very aware that we could stand up and talk for on these
topics and present the research andpresent different people's models.
And it's all very abstract.
And, one thing that we've been clearfrom the beginning, I think, and it's

(45:20):
just understanding some of the principlesof, of learning is creating opportunities
for people to connect, so head, mind andheart, if you like, and there's a way
in which we try to engage people moreexperientially and reflectively to, to

(45:41):
think about the topics and we know thecontent, we know the abstract models
and the content and the theories we'retrying to convey and the challenge is
how to create situations where people canengage directly themselves, and where we
may be able to shape and guide some ofthe insights and reflections that people

(46:03):
have, and as they share them, and thenwe might be able to give some input.
So it is very much tryingto provide that scaffolded,
direct engagement,direct thinking about it.
If you remember, we never use slides, we try to just do more of the flip
charts so that we're not, we're lesstempted because as academics, we can

(46:28):
all stand up and talk forever andabout a topic we're passionate about.
So we try not to have slides, justhaving flip charts and having
activities, it's all about ustogether as a co learning experience.

Nutan (46:40):
Did you ever think that, oh, maybe this is too much of a difficult topic?
Let's not do this or somethinglike, was this ever a question?

Geri (46:47):
It's a topic we have to have because every group we talk to, these
are the big challenges that anyonewho's in a situation where they deal
with people are going to have to havesome challenging conversations at
some point, and we're never reallytrained in how to do that, and they're

(47:09):
uncomfortable as well, usually, andour self preservation is, you know, we
would want to avoid them, and then oftenthey build up, and they either don't
get addressed at all, or they blow up.
Yeah.
In an unconstructive way.
And I'm still learning howto deal with that myself.
I think Austen would say the same thing.
It's not like we've got it all sorted andwe're talking from positions of expertise.

(47:35):
Um, so yeah, it was a hardtopic and it was more, how do we
find ways of engaging with it?
And we, for our exercise, wedid bring some personas and.
We have been very careful to basethose personas on real situations
that other academics have broughtto us, all anonymized, of course,

(47:58):
because that was a challenge aboutwhich of the many challenging
situations would people connect with.
And we're hoping that there's thepersonas ground a discussion enough
and also provide an opportunity todraw out, reflect on some more general
principles that people then might beable to apply back to their situations.

Nutan (48:20):
Yeah.
I found that session extremely useful.
And as you said, very rarely are wetold, taught, uh, trained to manage
situations which are difficult.
And I think to even explicitly speakabout it and spend an hour thinking
about how, what would you do if youencountered a person who was being

(48:42):
difficult in this, this and this way.
Yeah.
I think just this wholeexperiment and this thought just.
Probably prepares you better to handlea situation, even if not identical

Geri (48:54):
Mm.

Nutan (48:54):
In the future.
So I, I thought thatpart really worked well.
I just also came back thinkingit must have been quite a
challenging one to design.
Mm-hmm.
So that, that's whythe question, but yeah,

Geri (49:04):
It is, and we, I think we evolve at a little bit every time.
As I said, maybe next time we mightdo a little bit more heads up at the
beginning or we might do a littlebit more heads up at the end to draw
together some of the principles becausethe time gets away from us as well.
And it's, that's often thechallenge, how to manage the time.

Nutan (49:26):
If there are people who are willing to share, I think it
takes time, the process itself.
And then, yeah, it's understandable.

Geri (49:33):
And there's usually so much wisdom in the room.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, we very much thinkof ourselves as facilitators.
We can offer what we know from theliterature and and there's a lot of
lived wisdom and experience in theroom And I think also recognizing
that we're all different Yeah.
And hearing different people'sapproaches and going, yeah, I can

(49:58):
connect with that, but not with that.
And that's okay.
It was also an importantpart of the whole thing.

Nutan (50:03):
Yeah.
So, yeah, I want to now moveover to, uh, your podcast.
So we already briefly mentioned this inthe conversation, um, Changing Academic
Life is the name of your podcast.
request my listeners to go listen to this.
Uh, I did that.
And there were some very lovelyconversations, uh, and many monologues.

(50:27):
Uh, so I quite enjoyed that.
I was wondering, at whatpoint did you decide?
So I think you mentioned that it wasin the 2015 around when you felt the
need for it when Some conversationswere recurring that you should have
some channel where you are able to havea conversation about this at length.

(50:48):
And the podcast has gone on, it'smore than, what, 100, 150 episodes
by now or something like that?

Geri (50:54):
Over a hundred, but.

Nutan (50:55):
Yeah, I think it is, I think it is in the ballpark of 150, I want
to say, but maybe I'm slightly wrong.
So I wonder what are the broadthemes, if you will, that have emerged?
And then what is it that is, uh, makingyou, like, Do this more of I mean,

(51:18):
there's something that's driving you.
And I would like to know what it is.

Geri (51:22):
Yes.
I think that the feedback I get frompeople is what makes all the difference
and what encourages me to keep doing it.
And people do really like hearingother people's stories and they will
pick up different things from stories.
And I also tend not to editthe stories that I get.

(51:45):
And some of them can be a bit long and Iam trying to split them up now into two.
So they're not quite so long
Because I remember one.
in particular where I was goingto edit out this section because I
didn't find it all that interesting.
And lo and behold, that was thevery section that someone came to me

(52:06):
and said they changed the way theyran their computer science, um,
tutorials or whatever, because ofwhat this person shared that they did.
And I went, Oh, Oh, that's good.
I'm so grateful that I hadn't editedout because I now just think I never
know what's going to connect andthis is people's genuine story and

(52:27):
everyone's in a different place.
Yeah.
And yeah, so I willprobably pick up again.
in the autumn and start again.
I want to think about what balancebetween conversations and some
monologues, uh, because some peoplehave said they appreciate the monologues
bit, and there are some topics andthemes I'd like to share there as well.

(52:52):
And I've got different people whoI'd like to talk to, um, And it's all
again, it's often been serendipitous.
It's who happens to be visiting ouruniversity and I grab them while they're
there and say, we have a chat with meor if I'm at a conference, it's not
well planned or structured thematically.

(53:12):
The things that I hear though,again and again, like we've said
about luck, you know, the number ofpeople who talk about being lucky.
And there was a conversation recentlyor in the last year with Sarah Davies,
who's actually got a lovely paper withher colleagues on the role of luck.
And actually using that to critiqueour notions of excellence, you know,

(53:36):
because we downplay all of these otherfactors that, that can play into it.
Um, I think it's the diversityof career paths that I hear and
motivations that is really inspiring.
It's the fact that wherever peopleend up, they can find a way of

(53:58):
making it work or finding ways toconnect to what they care about.
And so just trying to encourage people notto think of a career path, for example,
by a label or by a sector or an industry,but rather What can this role allow me
to do that I care about, that I'm goodat, that connects to the difference I

(54:22):
want to make in the world and that therecan be multiple ways of doing that.

Nutan (54:31):
That sounds fantastic.
Yeah, I mean, I listened to one ofthe I mean, I listened to quite a few
of your episodes since we last spoke.
And the one that I really enjoyed, I mean,I enjoyed quite a few and your monologues,
as some people have told you are verynice, actually, I really enjoy them.
And I think when you were visiting me,so like this podcast also happened a

(54:53):
bit with serendipity and me kind ofcatching you slightly off guard, I guess.
And that was lovely.
Thanks.
Thank you again for doing this.
I don't know.
Maybe I said it too many times already,but In any case, and then I think the
one where it kind of stayed with me, Iwould say is this one with Neha Kumar.

(55:14):
I think she was an Indian person.
So maybe that's why itconnected more with me, I guess.
Um, and then she was talking abouthow she moved from places to places.
And the story is a bit similarfor you is what I noticed.
I mean, we didn't really talk about itso much, but you grew up in Australia.
Now you're in Australia.
not in Australia, you're inEurope, you're in Austria.

(55:35):
And then there were many placesyou went to in between, right?
So we didn't so much talk about it.
But I felt like her story, we the academicnomads somehow, is also a recurring one
that really connected with me somehow.
And I don't know, I don't know,maybe you don't remember the
specifics of the episode by now.

(55:56):
But do you have a similar take onhow your life has shaped up as An
academic person who's travelingthrough the world for her career.

Geri (56:08):
Um, I guess that is definitely a recurring theme as well, because
very few people that I speak to arecurrently living and working where
they've grown up or where they'vebeen to for their first degrees.
And so whether that's justmoving interstate, if, I don't

(56:31):
know, if you're in the U.
S.
or, you know, some other big country, um,or moving cities, or whether it's moving
countries and cultures and languages,there's a lot of mobility expected.
And again, like Sarah Davies alsotalked about this a lot about, you know,
the academic mobility and the cost,because they also had that experience.
And I think it's more sonow with the precarity.

(56:53):
And, um, scarcity of postgraduatejobs, um, which is really
challenging for people.
And I think that we underestimatethe cost of those on people.
The personal costs, the researchcosts, the career costs.
Yeah.
There's, because it takes time whenyou move somewhere even just to know

(57:17):
where do you want to go to buy yourgroceries or how do you get connected
to a, how Doctor here or, um, let alonethe language and the culture, even
when people speak the same language.
I remember moving to England andeven though we speak English, the
Australian sense of humor was verydifferent to the English sense of humor.
And yeah, there are just lots of.

(57:39):
Different things I hadn't expectedto be different and and they were
so I think there's that cost.
There's the cost it takes just toget settled into a new workplace, um,
work out how do you book your holidaysor how do you order a new pencil?
You know, all of those veryboring, pragmatic things, let

(57:59):
alone How do I apply for funding?
How do I get research started here?
How do I build up my newnetworks and collaborators?
Because we're increasingly being rewardedfor these sorts of big collaborations.
So that's a challenge and that takes time.
And then just the socialconnection about where's home?

(58:22):
What do you call home?

Nutan (58:24):
This is a very good question, you know, Geraldine,
because, um, it's, it's a question.
So what happened was two years ago,I was visiting Aarhus, and there's
a museum called Aarhus Museum.
And the theme for thecurrent display was home.
And in fact, the whole museumdisplay was about, um, what is home?

(58:48):
What is the notion of home?
Um, and it really like.
captured me a bit, uh, for a while.
And I had no answer for this becauseI have moved a lot for various things,
a lot within India, actually, becauseas you said, for a big country like
India or the US, you move a lot,but it's all within the country.
But within the same country, thatcultural differences are quite a lot.

(59:10):
Yes.
And so it's been very difficultto define home for me.
Now, I have a very, very, uh,simplified definition for home.
So I tried to grapple with this at aphilosophical level at a, uh, you know, I
tried to read about what people call homepoetry and prose and things like that.

(59:32):
Now, it's a bit simple for me.
I really simplified it now.
I boiled it down to a fact that a placewhere I can cook my own meal, actually.
So it's become very functional.
So from being very philosophical,and then feeling not at home in most
of the places that I've been and soquestioning everything from the scratch.

(59:55):
Now it's become this and Ikind of like this definition.
It's maybe not for everyone,but This is what is good for me.
I think that, okay, I can actually makeit a home if I can create it, you know,
so I think making of making a meal ofyour own is like a maybe a, you know,

(01:00:17):
placeholder for if I can tweak the factorsthat are closest to me in my day to day.
If I can design my day, In the way Ican feel most comfortable with that
may be the right elaboration of thatlittle placeholder, then I feel it is

(01:00:38):
home and maybe that's like the essentialof home because sometimes what happens
now to me is when I go back to Indiaor even in the past when I was away
from, I've been away, staying away fromparents for a really long time, right?
Or, uh, so when I used to visitthem, it didn't feel like home.
It used to be exactly the same space, butit never felt like home once I left it.

(01:01:00):
And then it's probably becauseI'm not able to design my life
when I'm with them, right?
Because It's a lot of fun for me to bewith them, but at the same time, it's
not something that the choices areperhaps not exactly what I would like.
So this has become kind of the,but I think I've still not come
to a final answer for this.
So what do you think?
What is your, do youhave an answer for this?

Geri (01:01:22):
I really like your definition of home about where you can cook
meal, because it also, Yeah, exactly.
And it also points to, like you'rein control, what you just said.
Yeah, precisely.
It's my choice.
It's how I make those, howI can make those routines.
And yeah, when you go back to yourfamily home, it's back to their space.

(01:01:44):
It was different when youwere a kid growing up there.
But when you've left, it'sback to their space and their
routines and their control.

Nutan (01:01:51):
Precisely, yeah.
Yeah.

Geri (01:01:52):
Yeah.
I don't know.
I think I'm also still grapplingwith it in a way, because it's,
I, I feel at home here now.
I think it does boil downto people and lifestyle.
Um,
there's something about, there alwayswill be a connection back to Australia.

Nutan (01:02:13):
Definitely for me too.

Geri (01:02:15):
Because of where I grew up.
But when we go back, because wedon't have a place that is ours.
We still feel like visitors becausewe're staying with people or
staying somewhere that isn't home.
So the place is familiar andthere's some at homeness about

(01:02:38):
the place, the country, but yeah.
Yes, an interesting question, isn't it?

Nutan (01:02:45):
Yeah, yeah.
I think it's an open ended questionfor me, but I thought that this was
a reasonably good working definitionbecause that sort of put me at ease
because that question actually stayedwith me for a really long time.
Uh, for Because it kind of stuck to methat maybe if I can't call anything home,
is this the right way to lead my life?

(01:03:05):
Yeah.
And now, over time, I evenhave made peace with that.
Yeah.

Geri (01:03:11):
I guess it also comes back to what's important to you.
And, you know, are you able to liveout the sort of qualities of a life,
um, and values that are importantto you where you are right now?

Nutan (01:03:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Okay.
Yeah.

Geri (01:03:28):
And that there are always trade offs.

Nutan (01:03:30):
Exactly, right?
Yeah.

Geri (01:03:32):
Yeah.
I love the fact that living wherewe are now, we don't own a car.

Nutan (01:03:37):
Yeah, exactly.

Geri (01:03:38):
Whereas if I was living in Australia, unless, you know, we pretty
much would need to have a car justbecause different distances, not so good
infrastructure for public transport.
That, that opens up awhole different lifestyle.

Nutan (01:03:51):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think much like other situations,sometimes some philosophical
questions have no answers, butyou can find like working answers
for that for yourself somehow.
Yeah.

Geri (01:04:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And what, where you feel comfortable.
Yeah.
It's also one of the big.
Privileges of our workthat we can be mobile.

Nutan (01:04:20):
Precisely.
It's a huge, it's a huge advantage.

Geri (01:04:24):
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, there are costs,but we can apply for a job in any
country that offers an academic job.

Nutan (01:04:31):
Hmm.
Yeah.

Geri (01:04:34):
Um, and there are many professions that are very tied to where you are, the
legal structures within the profession,within that state, or, whereas yeah,
it's harder to do that mobility.

Nutan (01:04:48):
Yeah.
But this was a very, uh,unplanned, I would say.
I mean, everything is unplanned,but this was a completely unplanned
digression, which I really enjoyed
. Geri: It's, but they're interesting.
relevant topics for a lot of people.
I think so.
In terms of the themes that come outof, you know, your conversations.
Are you hearing that in the conversationsyou have in the podcast as well?
Yeah.

(01:05:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think very much so.

Geri (01:05:11):
Yeah.

Nutan (01:05:13):
So we are coming kind of towards the end of this podcast.
I've taken a lot of your time.
But what I do in my podcast with theend is have a non rapid fire question.
Which means the questions arequick, but the answers don't have
to be . And these are a little bit,you know, open-ended questions.
So like, do what you will with it.

(01:05:34):
Uh, don't worry so much about it.
So if you were to do another PhD and inyour case you might , what would it be?

Geri (01:05:47):
It'd be something very interdisciplinary.

Nutan (01:05:49):
Mm-hmm.

Geri (01:05:50):
And I would.
I actually would love to do somethingthat's much more about culture and
how do we create better cultures.
And that's tied up with the wholereward systems that we have.
And people centric.
Yeah.
So I think I'd be Bigger systemicpicture because a lot of the work

(01:06:13):
I've done has been, you know, likesmaller groups and people and I'm
increasingly recognizing the systemsand structures need to change as well.
So, yeah, I'd like to.
Play with some ideas forhow to make that happen.

Nutan (01:06:30):
Don't blame me if you go ahead and do another PhD.

Geri (01:06:34):
I think my husband would kill me.

Nutan (01:06:38):
In that case, definitely don't mention me.

Geri (01:06:40):
He wouldn't be surprised.

Nutan (01:06:43):
Exactly.
And then, so next question.
Do you have a book in you?
And if so, what topic?

Geri (01:06:52):
Oh, now that's an interesting question because I'm actually having
a workshopping session in two weeksto explore this very question.

Nutan (01:07:08):
Fantastic.
So do you do have a book in you then?

Geri (01:07:11):
I don't know.
I'm not, it's not my happy,writing is not my happy place.
I want to have an impact.
I mean, I, I think as I'm movinginto this end of my career and, you
know, I've finished my permanent fulltime position and I'm still feeling

(01:07:31):
like there are contributions I canmake and I have more freedom and
flexibility to focus on that now.
Some people are convincing me thatif you want to have an impact, it
may be possible to have more ofan impact, a broader impact with
a book than just running courses.

Nutan (01:07:52):
Mm hmm.

Geri (01:07:53):
So it's, can I collaborate with someone who actually likes writing more
and Because I would enjoy doing this sortof thing with someone, in the course, I
don't know whether we talked about jobcrafting, so, you know, writing isn't
my happy place, but I like working withpeople and I'm motivated to want to

(01:08:14):
make a difference, so are there ways Ican bring them together to do that, so.
And it would be something abouthow can we take it control.
How do we create supportivecollegial cultures?
How can we make better choices andstill do great work and not at the

(01:08:35):
cost of our sanity and well being.
Beautiful.
Yeah.

Nutan (01:08:40):
I really hope you find that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think if you're going in with the openmind and some ideas to this workshop, I'm
sure something nice will come out of it.
I wish you all the luck.

Geri (01:08:52):
Thank you.

Nutan (01:08:53):
Let's see what happens.
Over to the next question.
There are totally five.
So we've gone throughtwo, three more to go.
One thing you would like todo more of as a researcher?

Geri (01:09:07):
As a researcher, not because I'm now in

Nutan (01:09:11):
this

Geri (01:09:12):
different phase.
And I think, I know people who haveretired and continued to do research
and reveled in the freedom to.
I focus on what they want to focus on.
So I feel like I've done that part.
It's the stuff that I can do andhave done, but I'm not passionate to

(01:09:36):
do any particular research project.
I think that sort of feels toonarrow and focused and there's an
urgency now to do something that hasbroader impact that enables lots of
other people to do great research.
Yeah.
So I'm, yeah, I'm, maybe myresearch project is enabling
other people to do research.

Nutan (01:09:57):
That's fantastic.
I think that's far more impactfulin a way, actually, yeah.
Mm.
Yeah.
Wonderful.
And what about, uh, things thatresearchers have to do typically?
And you would, perhaps if it was, youknow, you were playing the God and
designing the rules of academia, whatwould you reduce for researchers?

Geri (01:10:19):
Oh, I would reduce the silly games around, highly
competitive funding proposals that
require us to spend so much time writingabout research and not actually doing it

(01:10:40):
because the, there are limited funding.
I would love to see some sort of universalresearch income available to people.
I'd love to see us recognize that notall research needs multiple partners and
big collaborations and loads of moneythat, you know, just me and my piece of

(01:11:01):
paper or me and a student may be able todo some really great impactful research.
And that should be valued justas much as getting funding.
And we've got to get the balance right.
And I see encouraging signs, um,towards that with things like CoARA
that, um, Karen Stroobants talked aboutin one of the conversations I had.

(01:11:24):
And.
Recognizing diverse types ofimpacts and contributions.
I think that is also aboutrecognizing diverse types of
research and inputs to research.
So,

Nutan (01:11:38):
yeah, that sounds wonderful.
Can you play the God, please?

Geri (01:11:46):
It's just heartbreaking to watch people.
uh, put their heart and soul into aproposal as well and it not get funded
and they just let them get on and dosome of that work and see where it goes.

Nutan (01:11:58):
So true, yeah, so true.
And then final question.
So this is kind of a advice question.
I saw you actively not give adviceduring the leadership course, right?
So stayed away very clearly from it.
But maybe if you were to give apiece of advice to a young researcher
or a student, what would be?

Geri (01:12:19):
My advice would be you do you.
And that means spending sometime reflecting on who are you
as a researcher, not who's yoursupervisor, or who's your colleague.
Um, but what lights you up?
What do you care about?

(01:12:39):
What price are you prepared to pay , areyou willing to pay and, you know,
trade offs in, but yeah, doing, doingthe work to reflect on who you are so
that you can do you with confidence.
Thanks.

Nutan (01:12:54):
Yeah, and it sounds like a very, uh, cliched phrase, but I think it's
very important and it's a when yourephrased it and said that, oh, it's
about finding who you are as a researcher.
I think that makes it very, very, uh,very, very different from what one
would think of as you do you becauseyou do you is often also used, um, in

(01:13:15):
more popular context, you know, in away that, oh, maybe, you know, just do
whatever comes first, but the reflectionpart that you talked about, I think
that it makes a lot of difference.
Yeah, that's a great,great piece of advice.

Geri (01:13:29):
And then we need the reward structures that recognize there are
different, lots of different you-s.

Nutan (01:13:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah, this was a lovelyconversation, Geraldine.
And thank you for doing it in spiteof not feeling 100 percent well today.

Geri (01:13:45):
Much better than I have been.

Nutan (01:13:49):
Thank you so much.
Yeah.

Geri (01:13:50):
And it's been lovely talking with you, Nutan.
And I've listened to some of yours andI'm excited to listen to more as well.
Yeah,

Nutan (01:13:56):
I hope I have more in my pipeline.
I mean, I have planneda few going forward.
But I'm going to release this pretty soon.
So I hope more people get to enjoy this.
Thanks again.
Right.
Thank you.
You can find the summary notes,a transcript, and related

(01:14:18):
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(01:14:40):
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