Tina Persson shares her journey from chemistry and nearly 20 years in academia, to recruiting and then career coaching. Tina discusses the challenges she faced in academia, including struggles with energy-draining tasks and political landscapes, and how she pivoted to a career in recruitment and coaching. She emphasizes the importance of understanding natural talents, emotional intelligence, and honest communication in career development. The conversation covers valuable tips for professors on recruiting and supporting early-career researchers, the impact of AI on career skills, and the cultural differences in career transitions. Tina also highlights the significance of lifelong learning and being open to unseen opportunities, offering practical advice for academics, those seeking an academic position, and those considering a career pivot.
Overview:
00:29 Episode Introduction
03:02 Introducing Tina and her Academic Journey
10:18 Transition to Industry
12:24 Becoming a PhD Recruiter
15:25 Coaching and Career Development
25:24 Recruitment Tips for Professors
36:00 Startup Mentality in Academia
38:43 Evaluating Candidates Beyond Technical Skills
40:35 Innovative Interview Techniques
43:09 Filtering Candidates Efficiently
50:57 Cultural Differences in Recruitment
52:50 The Role of AI in Recruitment
54:25 Human-Centric Skills in Academia
01:00:13 Building a Supportive Academic Culture
01:03:23 The Importance of Career Pivoting
01:05:52 Conclusion and Contact Information
Related links
Related to Tina:
About Tina and her LinkedIn profile and Passage2Pro
PhD Career Stories Podcast and upcoming book
People: Sarah Blackford , Fritz Eckstein
Holland’s Theory of Career Choice
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Geri (00:05):
Welcome to Changing Academic Life.
I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this isa podcast series where academics and
others share their stories, provideideas, and provoke discussions about what
we can do individually and collectivelyto change academic life for the better.
(00:30):
When I run workshops with, youngprofessors, even experienced
professors, one of the questionsthat often comes up is, how do you
know how to recruit someone good?
And that was my motivation for wantingto talk with Tina Perrson because she's
(00:52):
brings together unique experience inthis regard and the conversation ends
up covering this and so much more.
So i'm really happy to share thisconversation with Tina Perrson.
Tina's interesting because she workedin academia for nearly 20 years working
in chemistry, and then she moved onto work in a recruitment company and
(01:15):
created a niche for herself thereand recruiting post PhD people.
And now she's working as an academiccareer coach, where she brings
together all that she's learnedfrom her different backgrounds
in both academia and recruitment.
She shares really honestly, abouther own career journey and the
(01:36):
challenges she faced in academiathat led her to pivot to a career in
recruitment, and then the coaching.
And then where she talks more aboutcareer pivots and recruitment more
generally, I love the way she invitesus to not just focus on job security
per se, but to take a bigger lens andthink instead about career security and
(02:00):
how we can set ourselves up for thatand how we as leaders can support others
in their longer career trajectories.
So there's lots of tips for peoplefrom all sides of the equation here.
Whether you are applying for a PhDor postdoc position, or whether
you are the professor on the otherend who's doing the recruitment.
(02:22):
There are lots of tips that sheoffers for the recruitment process.
And there's also lots of good advicefor people who might be thinking
of pivoting out of academia.
Along the way, we also touch onissues like the importance of
understanding your natural talents,of emotional intelligence, of being
really honest in how we communicatethe realities of academic career
(02:46):
paths and career development, onthe role of AI in the recruitment
process and cultural differences.
As I said, there's lots therefor, for all sorts of people.
So I really hope you enjoythis conversation with Tina.
Tina, thank you very muchfor joining me today.
I was really excited to meet you and oneof the reasons why I thought it could
(03:12):
be really useful to talk was when we runworkshops with academics and early career
researchers, often the question that comesup again and again and again is how do
you know how to employ the right people?
And given your background thatwe're gonna hear about soon, I
just thought you'd be a wonderfulperson to explore this issue with.
(03:32):
So would you like tojust introduce yourself?
Tina (03:36):
Absolutely.
And first of all, thank you forinviting me to your absolute lovely
pod that I got noticed on on LinkedIn.
Right.
You know, you got recognized.
So congratulations, uh, Geri.
Uh, yeah, my background.
My name is Tina Persson and I startedoff my career as a young woman in
(03:56):
academia doing a PhD and with sort ofan aim of going abroad, doing a postoc.
And from there I, I just had onecareer in mind and that was to stay
in academia to become a professor.
So it was sort of a lotof step to go back home.
Uh, that is Sweden, Lund University.
(04:17):
And being in academia, uh, Irealized very shortly that.
It's not being a supervisor,trying to build a group.
As a young woman with no support systemaround, it's very, very difficult.
Mm-hmm.
So I started to doubt myself, but Ialso found that I'm doing too many
things that doesn't give me energy.
So I decided to leave and that.
(04:38):
This time, that is 2005, 2006.
You know, time is runnings.
20 years ago it was very, veryuncommon that if you had come so
far, you were fighting to stay.
Mm-hmm.
But I just said no.
So I pivot to say, listen, so just your
Geri (04:56):
disciplinary area that you were working in?
Tina (04:59):
My disciplinary area was organic chemistry.
Geri (05:02):
Yeah.
Tina (05:02):
In the beginning.
But I transitioned tomolecule biology in RNA.
So at the Max Plank InstituteI worked within the RNA
field in the early nineties.
So that was really in thebeginning of RNA science.
Yes.
So in my lab we work with the CRISPbefore crisp, but with catalytic RNA
(05:26):
ligation of RNA and some of the scientistslater on work with SI and MI RNA.
So I know if.
You know, just to share, because I knowyou have many academic people here on
the podcast, I attended a conferencein San Francisco and I think that,
uh, right six to eight Nobel Prizes,you know, that attended that virtual.
(05:47):
Wow.
They hadn't, some had got the NobelPrize, some of them were waiting to get
it, and one woman was Jennifer Dunnaand she was basically in her first or
second year as an assistant professor.
So I remember that very, very clearly.
So looking back, I realized I was sittingin a red Ferrari, but I didn't know that.
(06:09):
So I thought, honestly, comingback to Sweden with that sort of
portfolio, I would be extremelyattractive and easily get funding.
Um, but I couldn't be more wrong.
I couldn't be more wrong.
Mm, absolutely.
So.
Yeah,
Geri (06:26):
you, and you said about you felt like you weren't getting energy.
Can you unpack that a little bit more?
Tina (06:33):
Oh, very good.
That dissecting it, I'm sotrying to just give a very short,
brief background about myself.
But when I started, you know, beinga PhD, being a postdoc, particularly
postdoc time, it was tough.
It was, you know, hard competitionin the lab, but it was, it fitted me.
I was focused on doing science.
I could go to conferences.
(06:54):
I had great discussions, uh, in the labthat I was to discuss scientific problems.
So sort of a future of, youknow, being part of something
very big and important and.
I think now looking back, I usedmy sort of openness, innovation,
curiosity, writing, you know,scientific articles, but I didn't have
(07:18):
to write them for, for perfection.
I was much more hands on in the lab.
I was there sort of figuring out new ways.
So actually getting a, an article, socoming back and I was a supervisor,
suddenly I was fully responsible forpulling in the funding, which means
you're sitting writing fund applications.
(07:38):
So I was stuck applying forfunding and writing articles.
And it sounds maybe very strange, but Idon't like to write articles, you know?
So for me it's like, then it's over.
So honestly, you can't be a professorto that if you're not really, you know,
like to write, conceptualizing andwriting and it doesn't give me energy.
(08:00):
And that was one thing.
The other one was the political system.
Geri (08:04):
Hmm.
Tina (08:05):
I realized very quickly that, you know, they said you have to publish.
At least they said that to meas a woman, you have to publish.
You have to publish work harder.
But I said, it's no point because it'syou anyway, saying I have to work harder.
They give me the funding, so why can'tyou just tell me if I'm good enough or
if you are interested in investing in me?
(08:27):
But I never got that answer.
So I looked around myself, Geri,and said, okay, how many women
at this university has reallysucceeded to go where I see myself?
Geri (08:40):
Mm.
Tina (08:40):
And at that time, it wasn't many.
And all of them were muchmore founded with mentors.
At the university than I was.
And honestly, many ofthem never did a postdoc.
They stayed at the university,maybe did one visiting year
and then come back to the lab.
I stayed six years at the MaxPlanck and that was too many
(09:03):
years to come back 'cause I wasdisconnected with the local ecosystem.
Yeah.
So this is course something Iuse in my coaching, how to start
strategically a research career.
Don't do it the way I did it.
It doesn't work.
You know, it'll be very, very hardeven though there are many ways to
Rome, but there are ways that youcan make it smoother and easier.
(09:28):
Mm-hmm.
And this is some of my executivecoaching I do today with professors,
particularly young professors.
So that was my natural talents, I call it.
It didn't fit.
And the more I worked in academia,the more sort of de-energized I got.
And when you're de-energized, youare not a very good supervisor.
(09:51):
Mm-hmm.
So I wasn't very good in leading my group,but I was young, I was 35 years old.
So what can we expect from sucha young person to be able to
lead a group with no support?
It's too much.
Yeah.
Geri (10:06):
So it sounds like a very brave decision, especially in 2005, 2006, to
actually say, no, this isn't for me.
Tina (10:18):
No, it's not for me, but for me, maybe it was easy because
I'm not from an academic family.
So I come from a family with noacademic track record and they're
more involved in sales and business.
So.
I also think, lookingback, I am a bit like this.
When thing doesn't work out, Isay, why not try something else?
(10:40):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
That's maybe why I was a good scientist.
You know, I'm very open-minded andcurious, so why not test something else?
Why not go in a completelydifferent direction trying to
connect the dots differently?
So I use a lot of intuition, so myfeeling, if I put it up, my stomach
feeling when I changed was in orderfor me, because it was not easy
(11:04):
to call around and look for a jobbecause everyone expected you to stay.
It was, and I want tochange and pivot completely.
Okay.
So I, I get into a completely differentnetwork where I learn sales and
marketing because that is a skill,whatever you do in the future.
It's gonna be very good to have.
Geri (11:24):
Mm.
Tina (11:25):
At the same time I learned that I was more interested
in people maybe in science.
Yeah.
Again, as a woman, I was interestedin people, something I really didn't
know at the time being, but I knowthat today and the reason I like to
go to Germany was that apart fromdoing great science, I was in Germany.
(11:47):
I learned a language, I met new people,so that was also, you know, my curiosity
about the new culture and all of that,that was important in Germany, which
of course didn't get back when I cameto Sweden because here people were
not interested in what I've done inGermany had no interest whatsoever.
For me, it was how can't yoube interested in what happened
(12:10):
with me for the six years?
But I learned that, so I went into salesand marketing in the recruitment business
where I could combine people interest.
Sales and marketing, but Idid something smart here.
When I got that recruitment job,I said, I'm going to be the first
PhD recruiter, so I understand PhDsthat wants to do what I have done.
(12:35):
You know, they also find it very,very hard to get a job, but I will
understand the background and I canexplain it and express it for companies.
So that was my niche and that was theonly reason I got the job, because
this company could see that potential.
Geri (12:54):
And so you came up with that as a niche in going and talking to
the company that gave you the job?
Mm-hmm.
That's really interesting.
That's a really great insight.
At the intersection of,you know, like it Yeah.
You talked about doinga complete pivot away.
Yeah.
But also drawing across some threads.
Tina (13:13):
That's Tina Persson.
This is me.
I've done it so many times.
I did it in science.
But this is also I think, a mindset.
I have trained myself.
Mm-hmm.
I always tell nowadays to myclients, you must learn to
see the unseen opportunities.
We talk about hidden jobs, that onething, but unseen is really that
(13:36):
you connect dots by accumulatinginformation, connecting new information,
and draw some conclusions so you cansee things happening in the future.
That means, what I call it,you can see around corners.
So when an opportunity come, you takeit because you already know that might
that that might be the best option.
(13:58):
The moment.
Mm-hmm.
And that have happened so manytimes in my life, and this is that.
I tend to say I'm somehow a little bitahead of my time, which is always for me,
like I'm always working against the wind.
Geri (14:12):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (14:12):
You know, because when I was a first PhD career coach or coach or
recruiter, that the environment didn'tunderstand why I took that move.
But after me, there are many PhDrecruiters and one of my dear friends,
I spoke with her today, Anna, she wasthe second in Sweden and she lives in
(14:34):
Stockholm and she's still a recruiter.
Mm-hmm.
And I inspired her.
So, so you know, being the firstis hard by that, there will
always be people that follow.
Geri (14:44):
Mm.
Tina (14:45):
Yeah.
And that's how it's been with me.
Yeah.
I must admit.
Yeah.
Geri (14:49):
And it's not just the unseen opportunities, but it's the way in
which you co-create the opportunity,in both seeing the potential, the
unseen, I guess, and also makingit something that can be seen.
Tina (15:06):
That can be seen.
Yeah.
And that is what I callyour show by doing.
And for that, I needto take the first step.
So being a PhD recruiter, then I learnednot only sales and marketing, but I
also found another gap That is thereason that I'm sitting here with you.
And that is that I had this verygood intention to help and support
(15:30):
PhDs, postdoc, even professorsand lecturers to transition.
And I learned they can't sell themself.
They can't extract their competence.
Geri (15:41):
From academia, from academia into industry context.
Tina (15:44):
Exactly.
They talk, but no one understands andsee the value ? And I say, you know,
it's great to tell your life story inacademia and all your science, just that
you need to rephrase it so the companycan see the value, what you offer.
And that is something I had naturally,it was easier for me somehow to adapt
to that, where I could see many of the,one I tried to recruit to companies
(16:08):
and in fact, Geri, some companiescalled me back and gave me feedback.
Tina don't send these peopleand they're really weird.
And I said, no, they're not.
It's just a different language.
So, so I said, you know, I wasfighting there, but I learned that.
I learned, okay, I can't sell them.
So it needs, they need another support.
(16:29):
I can't give them as a recruiter.
Uh, and that is slowly thenyou can hear moving over to.
Me doing, oh, you know, I hadthree years in between starting
my company where I said, okay, Ithink I need to be a career coach.
I need to be a coach.
Mm.
Because that's the only way I, Ireally can help this clientele,
(16:50):
you know, to figure out whatthey want to do in the life.
Yeah.
Beyond the academic context.
And then I figure out I can do it inside.
So that is another transition basedon information that I gathered eight
years as a recruiter and consultantmanager, because I stayed, I stayed
eight years in the corporate world.
Geri (17:11):
And how long have you been then working as the career coach?
Um, and with your own company?
Tina (17:18):
That's another eight years.
Another eight years.
Another eight years something.
Yeah.
Geri (17:23):
So I, I do wanna get to actually, you know, for the professor sitting there
employing people and picking good people.
But if you are working with some ofyour PhDs who want to move into a
different sector out of academia.
Tina (17:38):
Mm-hmm.
Geri (17:39):
How do you talk to them about communicating so
that they can connect Yeah.
To a non-academic audience, to
Tina (17:47):
a non non-academic audience.
That's a process that I call naturaltalents that I identify myself.
It's based on, it'sactually Sarah Blackford.
Um, she used Holland's theory for a veryanalog instrument that many years now.
And then I know her and I gotit and I saw, oh, that's cool.
And then AI came Chat GPT.
(18:09):
Mm-hmm.
And then I realized, Hmm, wait a minute.
It's not about, we talk alot in academia about values.
They, they get too much of the value.
They get too much aboutstrength and weaknesses.
You don't need to be perfecton those things because you
can develop that with time.
But to sell yourself, if I put it inthat terminology so people understand
(18:31):
and see the value that lies inthat, you know where you're going.
So if you take a look on yournatural talents, that's going
back to what I felt in academia.
I feel I don't get energy from my job.
That is, if you use Holland's theory,which is based on, you know, you can
take, if you have a practical approach,hands-on approach, you're being
(18:53):
maybe more investigative, a bit moreenterprising, a bit more supportive.
Now a bit more, let's say creativejobs or administrative job.
You have sort of a mixture there.
By knowing, looking back on whatgave you energy doing in the past.
Mm-hmm.
You can write a simple diary.
I can help my clients to translatethat to actually a job field.
(19:17):
Nice.
Uh, and this is very easy to do that.
And by using Chat GPT, it's just amazingbecause from that very positive thinking,
not looking at what I don't like, youfocus 100% of what gives you energy.
You can learn to communicate eventhough you don't know the job.
(19:38):
You can say, do you know what?
I'm in academia, you know,industry much better than I do.
I can tell you what gives me energydoing and based on that might be
you can support me where I fit in.
Yes.
And people love to help you there.
Because you not look for a job, but youstill look for a job in an indirect way.
(20:00):
And this is how I helpmy client to start with.
And from there, we can then buildboth LinkedIn profiles, we can take
it to, uh, a resume, a LinkedInprofile, interviews and et cetera,
et cetera, building confidence.
Mm-hmm.
And this is a positive way for a critical mindset, PhD postdoc,
(20:21):
to move into a positive mindset.
Talking Yes.
Positively about, yes.
Yeah.
Geri (20:27):
So when they're at their best, you know, like when they're
really energized by their work,
Tina (20:33):
where they thrive, as I say, you are thriving.
And this is also what professorslistening here, because we become.
To, to the tips here, but this isalso how they should build the group.
They need a mixture of people inthe team thriving differently.
Yeah.
Yes.
So you have some sort of diversity
Geri (20:51):
Yes.
Tina (20:52):
In personalities, but not only in personalities, in their natural talents.
Yes.
Which I call drives the motivation.
Yes.
And this is a big mistake.
They get too many of the same kind.
Mm-hmm.
Geri (21:03):
So, you know, you said when you had your group and you didn't
like writing and the sort of the,the articles and it sounds like the
trying to chase the grants and funding.
Yeah.
Looking back with what you knownow, do you see a way that you
may have been able to have usedthis sort of natural talents lens?
Tina (21:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
In building a
Geri (21:24):
team where you collectively covered those bases.
Tina (21:27):
Yeah, and I was not that wrong at it.
It was just a coincidencehere that unfortunately,
the political landscapewasn't very healthy.
It was very toxic environment at the time.
Um.
When I started, I very quickly hadsort of a smaller group and I knew my
strength, uh, in many ways indirectly.
(21:49):
I, I'm, you know, I'm the one thatget all the new ideas, connect things.
Mm-hmm.
Then there was a woman, Sophia, hername was, she was extremely good
in writing and structure things.
So we started to collaborateand that worked amazingly.
Mm.
One day it stopped and I have sort of a feeling that was some political power
in the house disconnecting us to women.
(22:12):
Mm.
'cause we were very successful.
So if you Google Tina Persson and Sophia,you will find many articles what we did.
Mm.
And
when I look back on it, I think, wow, we did that
in that short time period.
Really groundbreaking.
Yeah.
Uh, but you know, this is again, thatwe were strong together, but the system
in academia is don't work together.
(22:32):
You should promote yourself.
Yeah.
And, and this is so degenerating becausethat also creates researchers like PhDs
and postdocs, young research being tooindependent, thinking about themself so
they don't get this sort of team ability,you know, work collaborative in a team.
Yeah.
Which is the only thingcompanies look at, because if
(22:57):
you can't be in a team, you know?
Yes.
Geri (23:00):
And it's also, I mean, as you indicated working with
Sophie, it's not just additive.
You bring your two pieces of what you aregood at, and she brings her two pieces.
There's something more that happens.
There's a, there's a synergy andan extra energy boost, you know,
with the collective that, um,
Tina (23:17):
collective comes from that.
So, I could put it this way, if anyonelistening here and whether you are sitting
inside academia trying to, you know, fightyourself through the academic context or.
You in industry and you feel thatyou're stuck and you're frustrated.
It might be that you haven't sort ofgrounded yourself in the ecosystem.
(23:41):
Uh, and for that is whatwe call in industry.
You need to have a strong abilityin emotional intelligence, which
means that building relationships,motivating people, social skills.
Yeah, yeah.
And ability to recruit the rightpeople, and communicate in a right way.
(24:02):
Yeah.
Many people make their manager theirenemy, and I said, it's not very smart
because you have to collaborate with yourmanager, learn to collaborate with us.
So, because no one's gonnapromote you if they don't see
the value of working with you.
Yeah.
And that is both in and at the university.
Yeah.
Geri (24:23):
And you want them to promote you in line with what
you're energized by as well.
Yeah.
So how do you communicate that?
Tina (24:30):
How do you communicate?
Well, I can't sit here and do teaching.
If you take that I'm not teaching.
For me, I wasn't particularly interested,but I can be on stage to sell things.
It's two different things.
So I should have had a completelydifferent job inside Academia, but I
could have started to get, you know, I gotmy Docent and from there, most likely I
(24:50):
should have moved into more, more externalaffairs, external or something like.
Geri (24:56):
That's, and that's the value of, of, um, the earlier we can get a
sense of what our natural talents are.
Absolutely.
The more we can think about what are thedifferent possibilities that will enable
those talents to to to blossom, to grow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's early.
Independent of the titleof the role that you're in.
Tina (25:16):
It's so important.
Uh, I have been prepared alittle bit for this podcast,
so I wrote something down here.
And that is that you should, when you area professor and, and you're recruiting
people, you know, it is very importantthat from the day you get a new PhD or
new postdoc, that they start early onor you start early on to support them
(25:39):
in the career development, whether,you know, and that's another point
for the reason they have come to you.
So that means that this is extremelyimportant in an environment where you have
so much of temporary positions mm-hmm.
That they get an early support soyou can build psychological safety.
Mm-hmm.
And psychological safety is there,so it's, you can be open to discuss
(26:05):
different career trajectory.
Not only that, you should stay in academiaalso, that it is okay to leave because it
is, when you are open discussing this, youwill probably succeed to retain the ones
you want because they feel more secure.
Mm.
Yeah.
Because the more they know about theiroptions, the more secure they will
(26:26):
feel and the better, more efficientpeople will work in your group.
Yeah.
And I've been coaching Geri, so manyPhDs and postdocs that I would put it
this way, it's absolutely impossible.
They can't be efficient consideringhow worried they are about the future.
(26:48):
Yes.
And how little
Geri (26:49):
Especially when we have so many shorter term contracts so that, yeah.
So I wanna pick up on this pointagain about supporting, um, early
careers in their ongoing career.
You know, like your employment of themas being part of that career journey
(27:11):
for them and how you can support themin the time that you have contact.
But one of the questions that I getasked all the time, and I don't have
a great answer always, um, is how,you know, people always struggle
with recruiting the right peopleor good people and you, so they're
(27:31):
always looking for tips and tricks.
So given your background, bothin the recruiting business and in
supporting people in the coaching,
mm.
Tina (27:43):
I would say,
Geri (27:44):
What would you say to young professors?
Yeah, young professors who are recruitingPhD students or postdocs or whatever.
Tina (27:52):
Yep.
It really depends where theyare in their academic career.
If you have young professors, theyhave funding, you know, limited
funding, they need a really sharpstrategy, you know, a sharp strategy.
Uh, and there when you grow,you have more and more funding.
You can be more strategic.
Uh, and there is also room tofail, if I put it that way.
(28:14):
With recruitment.
Yes.
When you are a young researcher,there is no room one PhD student
that doesn't deliver a post.
It could be the end or the beginning,you know, of your career basically.
So, so there you have tobe very, very cautious.
But I have some certain tips.
Uh, but before doing that, I'm gonna.
(28:35):
Just frame some sort of quote that Iwrote down here for all professor, whether
you are young or old, uh, or you areestablished, not old, that's, that was
translating Swedish to English that ismore established professor was aside.
But that is, and I, first of all, and, andI say this because I've been coaching many
(28:57):
professor among some of the KarolinskaInstitute and in Germany, Max Planck, that
is that professors strive for permanentjobs and, and they are afraid to tell
their PhDs and post up the truth or thereality because they want to be nice
(29:17):
and they want to offer them security.
And that's the wrongstart from the beginning.
So I would like to put it likethis, uh, it's a quote I wrote
before for this podcast here.
It's not about offering job security,it's about offering career security.
Mm-hmm.
Candidates will commit to your projectif they know you're serious about helping
(29:42):
them grow and land well afterward.
Geri (29:46):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (29:48):
And this is where I tell, and I'm gonna tell you what I
tell postdocs and PhDs when theysay, Tina, I want to do postdoc.
I want to start the PhD.
What professor should I choose?
So Geri, what advice doyou think I give them?
Well, it's a very simple one.
(30:08):
Today we have socialmedia, we have LinkedIn.
They can find a lot of information there.
Yep.
So I say you should go to a group whereyou can see the people that left the
group, how they succeeded afterwards, whatdid they do after the post, or how many
(30:30):
professors have that professor generated?
How many people in industryhas that professor generated?
So if you take my postdoc dad,Fritz Eckstein at the Max Planck,
I checked his list and they all inindustry, apart from some, they were
extremely successful in academia.
So that probably was a good chance that.
(30:51):
I would succeed as well.
So when we are in these times whereyou have mental health issues,
you can Google these information.
Geri (31:00):
Mm.
Tina (31:00):
You can find this information and LinkedIn and ResearchGate
or other networks, you canactually check your professor.
You, you look, look, look.
Watch them up.
Yeah.
And when I tell that to professors,is this the tip you give?
Yes.
Wow.
It's not good.
(31:21):
No.
That's why you need to beon social media to show off.
This is my lab, this is my people.
So they have all the names ofyour laboratory people, and then
they can contact them and askhow is it to work in that group?
This is how you show your brand.
And it's not about policing all the time.
(31:43):
It's to make them successful.
Doesn't mean that you always agreewith them, but you know that you have
this sort of, this is what companieshave learned and this is what they call
talent development, talent attraction,talent recruitment, and this is coming
to academia as well as really important.
So for that reason, I thinkthat is step number one.
(32:05):
You have to think when you recruittoday, okay, I'm a young researcher.
What do I actually need tosave my next three years?
Because if you go to universitiesin United States, you don't have
more than three years, then youmust support your own salary.
So you need to be extremely strategic.
(32:25):
So I would put it that way.
You have my tip one is adaptto your funding reality.
So if you have three years,it's important that you are
clear with, I have three years.
And, we never know whathappened after that.
Yeah.
But bring in the people that arecurious, open-minded, and that can live
(32:48):
with, that you have tight deadlinesand that you need publications.
'cause that's what you're gonna tell them.
I need publications, only publicationsthat are gonna take us further.
And that you hire people that youare guiding very strongly, that have
the technical skills that you need.
You know, maybe more hands on postdocs orPhDs that produce your science basically.
(33:15):
This sounds weird, but this is maybea tip you need to consider when
you are a very young researcher.
Geri (33:23):
So the realities of the funding and it's about the.
What you need from the position.
Tina (33:30):
Yeah.
Geri (33:31):
Both in terms of outputs and the inputs.
In terms of skills.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and in that, you know, if wetake your, um, supporting their, their
career security, it's also talking tothem and the about how those also fit
and support their trajectory as well.
(33:54):
In that.
Yeah.
Tina (33:54):
In this, in this case, it's harder here.
You have to be clear with that.
If, if you come to my lab.
This is what I need from you.
You know, I, I understand that someprofessors, it's very hard to say that I'm
going to, it feels like I'm using them.
Yeah.
But you have to see itfrom two perspectives here.
You need them to produce yourscience so you can publish that.
(34:15):
That's honest.
Yeah.
And you give them an opportunityto learn your science that
they can take to the next step.
Geri (34:22):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (34:23):
Yeah.
That you need to be honest with, I havethree years, so it's better that you come
and we focus on what you can learn andpublications and then early on start to
tell them that you know, now it's oneyear, two years left, or one year left.
What's your plan?
Because you know, so you early onstart with them and telling them
(34:45):
that you know, you need to look whatyou are doing after, because this is
also how you can use your network.
Yeah.
Maybe you can help them to another group.
Or you start saying maybe, you know, youshould look around what industry offers.
Geri (34:58):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (35:00):
So this is to be very open with that.
You know, you have limitedresources to keep them.
Unfortunately, some professors,they're so afraid to lose or
drop the best post docs and PhDs.
So they are living onthe hope so very late.
They know that I can't support you,and then, you know, there's not
(35:21):
enough time for the PhD and theposter to look around and orient
themself and explore other options.
Mm-hmm.
So stay honest in, in,in, in this perspective.
Geri (35:32):
Yeah.
That honesty is really critical.
Tina (35:34):
Mm.
Geri (35:35):
And it still leaves open the space for that discussion within
that honest framework about theseare the practical constraints, what
I need, um, what you can deliver.
And it, there's hopefully still scopefor that discussion that says, yeah.
Where we have some room to make decisionsor to shape what actually gets done.
Yeah, absolutely.
(35:55):
What would work towards yourcareer trajectory, whether
it's here or somewhere else?
Tina (36:00):
Honestly, this discussion is not more strange than in a company, a startup.
Mm-hmm.
You know, if, if you go back, you know,you, you're gonna start a little company.
And they say, you know, I wanta permanent job in your, yeah.
I can't offer that.
I say, no, no.
This is a startup and I, I can keepit as long as we have money in the
(36:21):
company and people are happy to join.
Mm-hmm.
And now I'm coming back towhat I said and framing.
It's not about uh, job security,it's about career, security.
Career.
Yeah.
Because if you go to a lab and yousay, you know, God, you know, she
doesn't have money or he doesn't havemoney, this young professor, but I will
learn fantastic and amazing skills.
(36:44):
And if I use my time wisely,collaborating, networking, I secure
my career because I'm learning.
So this is part of lifelong learning.
So your expectation is on that level.
This is where I tell people,leaving academia, do you know what?
(37:05):
You shouldn't look for jobsecurity because that will stop
you in the next five years.
You should take a job where you maybe risk being unemployed again in two
years, but you learn critical skills,so you are building your career.
Hmm.
By learning new skills.
Hmm.
So actually job securitycan be a false security.
Geri (37:30):
Yes.
Tina (37:31):
Because you, you know, you stop learning and this is
what academia could be seen at.
Mm.
If you have you as aprofessor, it's just open.
You know, this is my scientific group.
I'm very young.
It's very new.
It's like a startup.
Geri (37:45):
I like that analogy of it being a startup, because it, it also
reminds you that there's a senseof energy and enthusiasm about the
work that you're doing because it'sa startup and you don't quite know.
No.
But yeah, the, the contributing topotentially making something great.
Tina (38:04):
Yep.
Of, of course.
It's the potential.
Yeah.
So, and that is the same, youknow, what we need more of in
Europe to take a risk mm-hmm.
Instead of looking forthe security all the time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that comes back to, you know, Ijust take that again, that be honest
(38:24):
as a professor when you recruit Yeah.
Because if you have, you can be toughas a leader, that's good, but you
have it with a big heart and thatyou mean that, you know, if you come
here, you will learn certain things.
Yeah.
And that in any way can take you forward.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Geri (38:43):
So how do, how do you actually engage in a conversation at, say
a job interview with someone?
Because you've got the CV where youmay be able to see that yes, they do
have those technical skills I need.
But you also talked about, um, theemotional intelligence skills and the
relationship skills and so on that, youknow, I know that we're talking about for
(39:06):
professors, but I think everyone needsin terms of the working relationships,
do you have any tips for, um, people whoare recruiting PhDs or postdocs about
how to pull out the stories that mighthelp you understand more of where they're
coming from, from those sorts of skills?
Or also what might be their more naturaltalents that you know, you, you may
(39:29):
be able to sort of help develop them.
Yeah.
Tina (39:31):
Help them to develop them, you know?
Yeah.
They're usually so young whenthey are PhDs and postdocs, so
it's always a little bit harder.
But an advice that I give is that trynot only to look on the technical skills
Geri (39:44):
mm-hmm.
Tina (39:44):
But also try to figure out what drives the motivation they
have and, and future perspectives.
Uh, of course if you askstandard questions, they, oh
yeah, I'm gonna be a professor.
But if you are on the interviewsaying, do you know what, um,
that's not important for me.
If you want to be professor, go toindustry because they please you.
They tell you, of course I'm gonnastay in academia, but now that's not
(40:06):
what I'm interested in to know ifyou are gonna choose, because you
know, many things can happen in life.
I am interested in whatyou can offer in my lab.
Mm.
Yeah.
So you turn around and check how manyhas actually read about my science.
Mm.
So you can ask these questions thatyou more figure out, okay, how much do
they know about what I do and the valuethey think they can bring to what I do?
(40:30):
Mm-hmm.
And what if, if you want to do somethingdifferent in my life, what could that be?
And I would challenge professors whenthey recruit to have these more tricky
storytelling questions where they haveto use their creativity very early on.
You know, where you can actually,in one interview focus on technical
skills and in the next one moreon innovation and creativity.
(40:53):
So then you recruit differentpeople and that you let them
record a video, for example.
Or if someone like to write, becausethey are good, some are good on on
recording, some are good on writing,but it could be good to let them
record so you get a picture of them.
This is what I think, you know.
Instead of having, you know, takingindustry interviews to science, I
(41:17):
think that should develop a differentway of selecting the candidates.
Mm-hmm.
That, that's, as I see it.
Yeah.
I stand up.
Well, that's the weakness.
It doesn't make sensefor a PhD in a postdoc.
It is what they can offer in thatset, particularly postdocs, you know?
Okay.
Have you read what I'm doing?
What my son, what, what, what do you see?
What, what value can they add in?
(41:37):
What would you like to do?
Mm, yeah.
Geri (41:39):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (41:40):
Particularly if you want an, a postdoc as they call them.
You know, the ones that are maybevery innovative and like to be
independent and all of them.
It's very,
Geri (41:48):
so almost sort of looking for some energy detection about when do they,
what do they get excited about or, yeah.
Even if they can't name it inthat way because they are younger.
Tina (41:58):
No, no, no, no.
They can't name it.
But you, you, you would figure it outby listening to them if they have,
you know, or if they are a very good.
Uh, as I had in my lab, extremelytechnical, skilled postdoc that maybe
not very innovative, but can really runthe experiments because particularly
in natural science, you had a lot ofroutine experiments that needs to be done.
(42:21):
Mm.
She was absolutely fabulous doing that.
Yeah.
And that is also some driverwas of course a drive for her.
Mm-hmm.
, To go to the lab and, you know,do a lot of the same experiments.
Yeah.
And then extract the information.
So, so this is also somethingthat it's not so tricky to ask
that this is how I would like tochallenge the professors to do it.
Geri (42:42):
Mm-hmm.
I really liked also the thing about
not just relying on sort of it'sface-to-face interview, but just
recognizing that people can shine indifferent ways and writing might be
easier or recording a video beforehandthat they can think about a bit more.
So that also recognizes that not everyoneis as good at performing in the moment.
Tina (43:07):
No.
No, they're not.
Geri (43:09):
They're not.
But um, there's also the challenge,you know, I know that a recent job, uh,
advertisement that at the university Iknow attracted about 150 applications
and, the challenge and another oneactually multiple hundreds, I know
that we wanna get down to actuallybeing able to have these conversations
(43:31):
and get to the storytelling.
Any tips for that recruit?
Absolutely.
Filtering phase.
It's a funnel that's, that's areally hard phase to how do you,
Tina (43:41):
How I do that?
I heard about that a lot as a recruiterbecause, you know, for me it was
like organizing the cvs was notalways the perfect way of doing it.
I would put it this way.
Today we have AI, you can useChatGPT if you just want to
organize the, the, the cv.
But that's not optimal.
So yeah, I helped the professor inUnited States and she had 150 resumes.
(44:04):
I think, see and as I, and it's notvery efficient of you to sit there
so that you go back with the mailto all of them and let them record
a video and not complicate it.
Just why they apply what they want.
You know, simp three questionsand they just answer these
three questions with a video.
And then we to together constructedsix questions so they could write
(44:29):
an answer, only that action.
And then she had only 20 left.
Oh, okay.
And that means that the rest,they didn't put, they didn't
put the energy in replying.
So how interested are you when you don'tMm take the work of recording and writing.
So then she was down to 20 and 20people, you could actually start
(44:50):
to organize and start to call.
So
Geri (44:52):
do you mean out of the 150, only 20 came back?
Tina (44:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Geri (44:57):
Wow.
What a lot of wasted energy.
'cause that means that130 people were just Yeah.
Taking a chance and throwing outmultiple CVs throwing out multi.
Tina (45:07):
Yeah.
That's how it is.
Yeah.
And we know that in industry as well.
That's an interesting model.
No, no, it's an industry the same.
Mm.
So, and then what I did as a recruiterand spend a lot of time doing is the
next thing is they call them, and thisis maybe also with some professors, they
prefer to send emails, but you have tobe careful because you can use ChatGPT.
(45:28):
It looks really good in an email,but it's not, it's ChatGPT or
DeepSeek or whatever they call itnow that actually raise the email.
So the best thing, you can booka Zoom meeting or short call
with three questions, not more.
Uh, it takes maybe 15 minutesper call and you get a very good
(45:49):
sense of, you know, the person.
Geri (45:52):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (45:54):
That's worth it.
That's worth it.
Mm.
And then you're down easily to five.
Mm-hmm.
Geri (45:58):
And then you can bring in those last Yeah.
Pool of candidates forthe face, face-to-face and
the lab visits and things.
Tina (46:07):
Yeah.
Mm, so, so, so this is something,and I talk with my good friend,
Ana, when she's recruiting.
Now she's working in an isolatedfield, so she says, I know many of the
clients, but she also emphasized theimportance of, of talking and listening
and see people, particularly in the timewhere you can basically use ChatGPT.
(46:31):
So even though you are writing aquestion, they will start to use ChatGPT.
So it looks really good,but it's not the person that
actually constructed the answer.
Geri (46:41):
Yeah.
Well that's interesting the waythat ChatGPT, and equivalent
tools are challenging a lot ofour processes and procedures.
Tina (46:49):
Yeah.
Geri (46:50):
And just the nature of scientific work.
But then that's another,yeah, that's another topic.
Whole issue.
Yeah.
Tina (46:56):
Yeah.
So I would put it this way, thatyou should deep dive in interviews.
And go beyond the skills.
And with that I was like,you know, explore their why.
Mm-hmm.
How they think about the future, what kindof team environment they would thrive in.
(47:16):
And you know, are they lookingfor a stepping stone or a growth?
You know, is this a stepping stonefor an academic career or what
kind of stepping stone is it?
Geri (47:26):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (47:27):
Yeah.
This is, you know, digging alittle bit deeper in the interview.
Yeah.
Geri (47:32):
Yeah.
Any particular tips on how toexplore those questions with people?
Like how do you explore their why, what,what sort of questions might you ask them?
Tina (47:46):
Yeah.
In academia it is sort of, if it's aPhD position, it's a standard questions.
You know, what do you hope to learn?
Mm-hmm.
From a PhD and what are yougonna do with those learnings?
Have they thought about it?
It seems to be a simplequestion, but it's not.
Geri (48:07):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (48:10):
Many start the PhD because it's a logical step after Master's.
Yes.
Yeah.
And they don't get the jobafter the master, so they start,
and that's perfectly fine.
But you know, if they say, yeah, you know,see if they did it to be honest and it.
Yeah, I, I don't know.
I just applied.
I thought the topic was good.
Okay.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
But what do you know about my topic then?
Mm-hmm.
I have a very, you gave a very goodidea how much they actually know.
Geri (48:33):
Mm.
Tina (48:34):
And I can share with you, Geri, when I applied for postdoc for Fritz
Eckstein, I didn't know what he was doing.
So Fritz called me and askedthese questions, say, I really
don't know, but I know one thing.
I don't want to do organic chemistry,but I want to go lab where the professor
know organic chemistry and know howto transition to molecule biology.
That was the only thing I knew Fritzsaid, well, that's the right place though.
(48:58):
But I didn't know his science, you know,I learned it when I came, but mm-hmm.
That could be an explanation.
Mm-hmm.
So it doesn't mean that they have to be anexpert, but understand the why, you know?
Yeah.
What do you hope to learn from a PhD?
What was the reason for you toapply for this particular position?
What do you hope to do after your PhD?
(49:19):
Just to hear how the answer.
Geri (49:20):
Mm-hmm.
And that points to the importanceof honesty on both sides.
Yeah.
Like, you know, as you said before, youcan give the answers that people Yeah.
That you think they expectto hear or that might Yeah.
Get you the job, but then you'vegotta get in and do the job.
And if you've lied or if you'vemisrepresented what you care
about or what your why is,and there is a basic mismatch.
(49:42):
Yeah.
That's.
It's scary.
This is not a very wise decision.
Tina (49:45):
No, it's not wise.
And this is where I coach my Yeah.
PhD for a job in industry.
They are sitting googlingwhat the perfect answer is.
And I say it's not a very goodstart because that is not you.
You have to be honest.
You must say.
Well, I don't know.
Or you can say, oh,that's a good question.
I have no clue actually.
And you know, do you know what?
(50:05):
I just applied, I applied for somany jobs, so, uh, and I applied,
but I'm so happy to be invited.
And before the interviewI checked your company.
That's perfectly fine.
It just shows that you had highactivity and didn't really have
time to check all the job ads.
Geri (50:23):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (50:23):
It's not a single person, they wouldn't understand that.
But it is about, you know, beinghonest about why you do it.
And, but that is also what professorsthen need to have in mind to have fun.
So if they say, do you know whatapplied for 50 academic jobs?
You are one of them, but I'm desperate.
I want to do a PhDbecause of, you know, yes.
(50:46):
That's also way of standing out, you know?
Geri (50:51):
Do you see any differences, you know, you talked about,
um, coaching or working withpeople in different countries.
Do you see any differences,particularly across countries?
Tina (51:02):
Oh yeah, it's big culture differences.
Yeah.
Europe, it has differencesbetween the, the countries.
I would say, uh, United States isdifferent, even though the Western
world, I would say is very similar.
But then you have the big continent,India, you know, and you have the
Asian world is very, very different.
How you perceive, you know, andhow you want to present yourself.
(51:24):
Mm.
Also, how you want to, you know, be maybeled and, and how you phrase and that
is closely connected to a topic that weneed to discuss more in the future maybe.
And that is the title.
In some countries like Sweden,the title is not important.
It can be disadvantage.
You can use your title, whichyou mean like doctor, doctor.
(51:45):
I have doctor on my LinkedIn andwhen I'm in Sweden, they comment
that every time and I say I haveit because I work internationally.
Yeah, okay.
They say, but if it was so thatI wanted to brand myself and look
for a job in Sweden, it absolutelynecessary I remove the title.
Geri (52:03):
Okay.
Tina (52:04):
Yeah.
And this is important when I careercoach people in Sweden that could you
please stop talking about your title?
It's not an advantage, you know, here yougo in and you need to be one in the team.
And it doesn't matter what titleyou have, your expertise you have,
if people don't want to work withyou, you will not move forward.
(52:26):
Yeah.
So forget your title at the moment.
Yeah.
You have to to show it differently.
Mm-hmm.
Whereas you go to Germany,title is no problem, France.
No problem.
So you sort of, there you need it,but it's even more important in India.
Geri (52:41):
Mm.
A title.
Tina (52:43):
A title.
Yeah.
So, so, so there we havedifferences in, in the coaching
and how we present ourself.
Mm-hmm.
But I think if you look in the futureand now coming to something that I
think also academia are going to be veryimportant, but we haven't discussed so
much about, and that is that when weintroduce AI In both science or in career
(53:07):
coaching or in industry, I think itwas McKinsey or PWC They found a study.
Uh, they did a study where they couldshow that it took very young consultancies
and older ones experienced one.
And when allowed to use AI, the gap inskill and knowledge became always equal.
Geri (53:30):
Mm mm
Tina (53:31):
That means that you can, with the right use of AI compensate.
With that said means that you canhave a PhD title, you can have an ex
high exam from the academic world,but since people can use AI, they
can very well start to compensate.
Mm-hmm.
So PhDs need to usethis skills differently.
(53:53):
And this is also what Iintroduced to my coaching, you
know, be more critical mindset.
Geri (53:58):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (53:59):
Analyzing, connecting the dots, coming from a different perspective there.
And that is what we calltransferable skills.
Geri (54:07):
Mm-hmm.
That's interesting about the differentchallenges now that AI is both
leveling the, leveling the field a bit.
Yeah.
And also making differentskills, um, more important.
Tina (54:25):
Yeah.
It is human skills.
It's the human skills.
And I say we go from, with thehelp of AI, our human skills.
Geri (54:33):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (54:34):
Gonna be more important than ever.
Mm-hmm.
And that is what we arenot training in academia.
Geri (54:39):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (54:39):
Yeah.
So here we also have is a gap.
Uh, so human-centric skills.
Mm-hmm.
It's gonna be very, veryimportant to develop.
Geri (54:47):
I totally agree.
So important.
Um, because human-centric skills areat the core of what you said about
once you've employed your PhD studentor your postdoc, the focus then on
how do you work with them to planand manage their career path so that
(55:08):
this is about secure, um, career.
You know, like helpingthem learn and develop.
Yeah.
So that, that needs skills to know howto have that conversation very early.
Very early, and work out what'slearning and development for this
person and where do they wanna go to.
Tina (55:27):
And you know, something.
I discussed with some of my clientsthat they say, you know, I have a post
that dreaming of an academic career.
Geri (55:36):
Mm.
Tina (55:37):
And you know, there could be many reasons behind it.
It could be family reasons,it could be status reasons.
It could be that they have beendreaming of it like me, you know, and
then, you know, but he, it's no whythis person got to be able to perform
an academic career, at least not inthis country, not this institute.
Because that's simple, notthose skills, you know?
(56:00):
Mm-hmm.
Because a successful professor today, theyneed a, you know, human centric skills.
Yes.
But they need basically to runtheir own company, you know, they
need to be very enterprising.
And enterprising contact that I'm ableto network and connect with people and
to understand where is the world going?
(56:20):
Where is the next funding opportunity?
And if, if you don't have that sortof, then it will be very challenging.
But you can still stay in academia,but at another level maybe.
Geri (56:30):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (56:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or you just say, no, youbetter go somewhere else.
Maybe there's a staff position for youor you, you decide for something else.
Mm-hmm.
These discussions, I know manyprofessors have a hard time to take,
you know, to, to tell them that,you know, no, it's an end here.
Geri (56:50):
So that's a different form of honesty.
That's, yeah.
Challenging.
Tina (56:54):
It's, yeah, it's, and as a career coach, coach, I've been
there many times myself, I have tophrase it differently, but it's, you
know, it's really hard discussions.
Mm-hmm.
Geri (57:05):
But it is a gift to be able to have that discussion well with people.
'cause it's not about, you are notgood for this, but there are places
that are gonna be a better, what, youknow, where it's gonna be a better
match for your natural talents.
Tina (57:17):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
A better match for you.
Mm-hmm.
It's about matching.
Yeah.
And I, you know, in the future,that's gonna be even more
important even for companies.
Geri (57:26):
Mm.
Tina (57:26):
Because they, they are transforming so quickly now.
So you can be very well in one.
Position for quite a while, and thensuddenly it's not there any longer.
Mm-hmm.
And you have to pivotsomewhere completely else.
Yeah.
We call it upskilling and transformation.
Geri (57:42):
Yeah.
I know.
The pivoting is going to be all the moreimportant even within, even when you
are in supposedly a secure position.
Yes, of course.
Tina (57:52):
Secure position.
Yeah.
Geri (57:54):
The, the pivoting in how you interpret that and play it out.
I mean, even what we see now with peoplein, you know, people who are lecturing
courses in universities, having torethink what does it mean to lecture?
What does it mean to learn?
What does it mean to assesslearning when people have access
to these, you know, oh yeah.
ChatGPT and tools related tools.
Tina (58:16):
I just say, I, I, I say I am a career coach, leadership
coach, call me, whatever.
And I gave, uh, a seminar for onlinefor people, career coaches in Singapore,
and they said, you know, but Tina.
You talk about AI, you know, becauseI give it a seminar about how to
use AI as your career ally, as acareer coach to support your client.
(58:41):
And, and I discussed it, andit's a lot about natural talents.
And so, but there must be a risk, Tina,that we, we are not needed in the future.
And my, my logical answer, of course.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It could very well be.
But that's a fact.
We can't change a fact.
It's more how we orient ourself, buthonestly, we've been there before.
Hmm.
It's been in UK when spinning Jenny came.
(59:04):
Yes.
And people are, we arenever gonna get a job.
But the fact was that spinningjenny generated more jobs.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it could be that I'm notthe career coach in the future.
I might be something else, but youknow, we need to go hand in hand
with, with the technology sort of,and, and, and if you're open-minded,
you, you will find a new path.
Geri (59:26):
This goes back to your unseen opportunities.
Yes.
That you said at the very beginningand about having agency and helping
to shape and create those as.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, so it does paint a veryinteresting, exciting, challenging
picture of careers in the future thatwe're always going to be challenged and
need to reinvent, whether it's changingfrom a limited contract to another
(59:51):
limited contract or even within a role.
Um, and that we need to look out forthose personal skills that people have
and, and their natural talents andhow we can be mutually beneficial.
Hmm.
Yeah.
So this has been reallyinteresting and stimulating.
Tina, are there any things thatwe've not talked about that you think
(01:00:11):
would be important just around that?
Tina (01:00:13):
Yeah, I have something I like to challenge the professors with.
I am quite sure some professors alreadydo it, but they do it in industry.
And that is that when you aregonna recruit people, invite
your team into the process.
So let the team evaluate the people,I think, you know, because you
(01:00:34):
know they're gonna work in a team.
Yeah.
So, and, and that if you have awell-functioning team, they like
to work with you for a reason.
They can help you in the process.
And also that I know, and I like tochallenge some, uh, you know, professors
that help your team to attract talentsby allowing them to be on social media,
(01:00:57):
because it is, as I wrote, build a culturein your group that attracts talents.
Then you don't have to advertiseor you, maybe if you advertise,
you get the ones you want becausethat is word spread today.
So if your former PhDs and postdocsare thriving afterlife and say they
(01:01:25):
felt seen and supported, you willnever struggle to recruit again.
Geri (01:01:30):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
That is really interesting too, that
giving to people and that the, like,it continues to give on in a way.
And that's, that's about buildingculture as well because they carry
(01:01:52):
forward that same attitude of careand helping people learn and develop.
Yeah.
Tina (01:02:00):
And as a professor, you, when the people are leaving
your group, you grow with them.
Geri (01:02:05):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (01:02:06):
So they will be your next generation collaborators and et cetera.
Yes.
This is what really, you know,some greater professors that
I know that I admire, that isa system they are using a lot.
So they get a referralsystem, alumni system.
Yeah.
Supporting them.
Geri (01:02:23):
Yeah.
And again, that comes back to theemotional intelligence skills, the
relationship skills that as yousaid, we are not so good in academia
at actually helping people develop,and yet they're, they're core to
building your research group in whichpeople can thrive and, um, yeah.
(01:02:44):
Helping them with their career journeys.
Yeah.
Tina (01:02:47):
It would change a lot in academia if they could get that sort of culture.
Yeah.
I put it that way.
Yeah, it would happen a lot.
Yeah.
It's much more innovation going on,uh, in academia than it is today.
Mm-hmm.
Because I know, I know there's hugemental health problems, not only
among PhDs and postdocs, but alsoamong professors and lecturers.
Geri (01:03:09):
Yes, yes.
Yeah.
And our culture and, and you know,the systemic issues that you talked
about, as well as the local culturethat people are experiencing.
Big contributors to that.
Tina (01:03:21):
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
So if someone is listening to this andI say, you know, maybe I should go,
but I'm a professor, it's not possible.
Yes.
It's, I know it.
It is possible to pivot.
It's never too late.
Yes, yes.
Never too late.
Yeah, it's possible.
Geri (01:03:39):
And you're paying a cost either way, aren't you?
Yes.
Like if you stay just because youthink you ought to, or it's too
scary to pivot and you are in thatde-energized zone, what a cost.
Tina (01:03:52):
It's a huge cost, uh, emotionally, and it's a cost on your health.
And, and sort of, as youknow, we have one life.
So, and you don't know it is about theunseen, so it's just a decision you took.
It doesn't mean you can't comeback in a different shape.
Mm-hmm.
I, it, it, you know, I'm contributing withmy why in academia in a different way.
(01:04:15):
Yes.
So, so it's sort of coming back,but I'm still on the periphery.
I realize that.
Yeah.
So, so I think, but I also understandbecause if you leave, it's like leaving.
I can see some similarities when I workedas recruiter, 2000, well now let's see,
2006, 2007, around there, I'm not rememberany longer, but we had AstraZeneca, uh,
(01:04:41):
Lund in, in Sweden, and they had fused,it was Astra then Zeneca in UK and
they decided to close the site in Lund.
You know, it was just 700 researchers,I think it was, and everyone, you know,
they thought, oh no, it's gonna be awful.
But afterwards, it just.
They said, you know, it wasreally good because so many
good things came out of it.
(01:05:02):
But this is to sort of have the mindsetalso that I understand if you have
been working in a company or in aculture like academia, it's a culture.
It is like leaving a family.
And we have to be awareof, this is psychology.
If you leave a family like academia,uh, I was like, it's like people
(01:05:23):
gonna cite, you can't do it.
They're gonna tell you it's gonnabe awful, it's gonna be terrible,
and they will do everything theycan to pull you back to the family.
But that's the moment you have tosay, do you know I love you, but it's
time for me to do something else.
Geri (01:05:37):
Yeah.
And I, I think that's a lovelypoint to finish on, that you can
still connect to your why Yeah.
And bring that through, and that youcan still use your natural talents Yes.
In different ways, in differentdomains, in different career paths.
Yes.
Yes, you can.
Oh, thank you, Tina.
This has been really, really interesting.
And if people wanted to find outmore about what you offer and that,
(01:05:58):
where would you point them to?
Tina (01:06:00):
I would point them either to my mail that's tina@passagetopro.com
or to my web page, uh, passage to pro.com.
Mm-hmm.
You find me also on LinkedIn, so it'sjust to connect with Tina Persson.
Yeah, yeah.
And reach out to me.
Geri (01:06:15):
I like the passage to pro because that does imply that the pivoting
isn't just a moment to another moment.
It's a journey.
Tina (01:06:22):
It's a journey.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I actually got people saying, wait, why?
Why do you say Passage to pro?
Because you're never pro.
Hmm.
Yeah.
' Geri (01:06:32):
Cause it's always this ongoing.
Tina (01:06:33):
Yeah, it's ongoing.
Geri (01:06:35):
Yeah.
Lifelong learning.
Thank you very much, Tina.
Tina (01:06:39):
Thank you Geri, for inviting me.
And it's been absolutely lovely tobe invited to chat and thank you
for this amazing talk with you.
It was really, really comfortable andinteresting, uh, talking with you.
Great.
Geri (01:06:53):
Thank you.
You can find the summary notes, atranscript and related links for this
podcast on www.changingacademiclife.com.
You can also subscribe to ChangingAcademic Life on iTunes, Spotify.
And I'm really hoping that we canwiden the conversation about how
(01:07:16):
we can do academia differently.
And you can contribute to this by ratingthe podcast and also giving feedback.
And if something connected withyou, please consider sharing this
podcast with your colleagues.
Together we can make change happen.
Welcome to Changing Academic Life.
I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this isa podcast series where academics and
others share their stories, provideideas, and provoke discussions about what
we can do individually and collectivelyto change academic life for the better.
(00:30):
When I run workshops with, youngprofessors, even experienced
professors, one of the questionsthat often comes up is, how do you
know how to recruit someone good?
And that was my motivation for wantingto talk with Tina Perrson because she's
(00:52):
brings together unique experience inthis regard and the conversation ends
up covering this and so much more.
So i'm really happy to share thisconversation with Tina Perrson.
Tina's interesting because she workedin academia for nearly 20 years working
in chemistry, and then she moved onto work in a recruitment company and
(01:15):
created a niche for herself thereand recruiting post PhD people.
And now she's working as an academiccareer coach, where she brings
together all that she's learnedfrom her different backgrounds
in both academia and recruitment.
She shares really honestly, abouther own career journey and the
(01:36):
challenges she faced in academiathat led her to pivot to a career in
recruitment, and then the coaching.
And then where she talks more aboutcareer pivots and recruitment more
generally, I love the way she invitesus to not just focus on job security
per se, but to take a bigger lens andthink instead about career security and
(02:00):
how we can set ourselves up for thatand how we as leaders can support others
in their longer career trajectories.
So there's lots of tips for peoplefrom all sides of the equation here.
Whether you are applying for a PhDor postdoc position, or whether
you are the professor on the otherend who's doing the recruitment.
(02:22):
There are lots of tips that sheoffers for the recruitment process.
And there's also lots of good advicefor people who might be thinking
of pivoting out of academia.
Along the way, we also touch onissues like the importance of
understanding your natural talents,of emotional intelligence, of being
really honest in how we communicatethe realities of academic career
(02:46):
paths and career development, onthe role of AI in the recruitment
process and cultural differences.
As I said, there's lots therefor, for all sorts of people.
So I really hope you enjoythis conversation with Tina.
Tina, thank you very muchfor joining me today.
I was really excited to meet you and oneof the reasons why I thought it could
(03:12):
be really useful to talk was when we runworkshops with academics and early career
researchers, often the question that comesup again and again and again is how do
you know how to employ the right people?
And given your background thatwe're gonna hear about soon, I
just thought you'd be a wonderfulperson to explore this issue with.
(03:32):
So would you like tojust introduce yourself?
Tina (03:36):
Absolutely.
And first of all, thank you forinviting me to your absolute lovely
pod that I got noticed on on LinkedIn.
Right.
You know, you got recognized.
So congratulations, uh, Geri.
Uh, yeah, my background.
My name is Tina Persson and I startedoff my career as a young woman in
(03:56):
academia doing a PhD and with sort ofan aim of going abroad, doing a postoc.
And from there I, I just had onecareer in mind and that was to stay
in academia to become a professor.
So it was sort of a lotof step to go back home.
Uh, that is Sweden, Lund University.
(04:17):
And being in academia, uh, Irealized very shortly that.
It's not being a supervisor,trying to build a group.
As a young woman with no support systemaround, it's very, very difficult.
Mm-hmm.
So I started to doubt myself, but Ialso found that I'm doing too many
things that doesn't give me energy.
So I decided to leave and that.
(04:38):
This time, that is 2005, 2006.
You know, time is runnings.
20 years ago it was very, veryuncommon that if you had come so
far, you were fighting to stay.
Mm-hmm.
But I just said no.
So I pivot to say, listen, so just your
Geri (04:56):
disciplinary area that you were working in?
Tina (04:59):
My disciplinary area was organic chemistry.
Geri (05:02):
Yeah.
Tina (05:02):
In the beginning.
But I transitioned tomolecule biology in RNA.
So at the Max Plank InstituteI worked within the RNA
field in the early nineties.
So that was really in thebeginning of RNA science.
Yes.
So in my lab we work with the CRISPbefore crisp, but with catalytic RNA
(05:26):
ligation of RNA and some of the scientistslater on work with SI and MI RNA.
So I know if.
You know, just to share, because I knowyou have many academic people here on
the podcast, I attended a conferencein San Francisco and I think that,
uh, right six to eight Nobel Prizes,you know, that attended that virtual.
(05:47):
Wow.
They hadn't, some had got the NobelPrize, some of them were waiting to get
it, and one woman was Jennifer Dunnaand she was basically in her first or
second year as an assistant professor.
So I remember that very, very clearly.
So looking back, I realized I was sittingin a red Ferrari, but I didn't know that.
(06:09):
So I thought, honestly, comingback to Sweden with that sort of
portfolio, I would be extremelyattractive and easily get funding.
Um, but I couldn't be more wrong.
I couldn't be more wrong.
Mm, absolutely.
So.
Yeah,
Geri (06:26):
you, and you said about you felt like you weren't getting energy.
Can you unpack that a little bit more?
Tina (06:33):
Oh, very good.
That dissecting it, I'm sotrying to just give a very short,
brief background about myself.
But when I started, you know, beinga PhD, being a postdoc, particularly
postdoc time, it was tough.
It was, you know, hard competitionin the lab, but it was, it fitted me.
I was focused on doing science.
I could go to conferences.
(06:54):
I had great discussions, uh, in the labthat I was to discuss scientific problems.
So sort of a future of, youknow, being part of something
very big and important and.
I think now looking back, I usedmy sort of openness, innovation,
curiosity, writing, you know,scientific articles, but I didn't have
(07:18):
to write them for, for perfection.
I was much more hands on in the lab.
I was there sort of figuring out new ways.
So actually getting a, an article, socoming back and I was a supervisor,
suddenly I was fully responsible forpulling in the funding, which means
you're sitting writing fund applications.
(07:38):
So I was stuck applying forfunding and writing articles.
And it sounds maybe very strange, but Idon't like to write articles, you know?
So for me it's like, then it's over.
So honestly, you can't be a professorto that if you're not really, you know,
like to write, conceptualizing andwriting and it doesn't give me energy.
(08:00):
And that was one thing.
The other one was the political system.
Geri (08:04):
Hmm.
Tina (08:05):
I realized very quickly that, you know, they said you have to publish.
At least they said that to meas a woman, you have to publish.
You have to publish work harder.
But I said, it's no point because it'syou anyway, saying I have to work harder.
They give me the funding, so why can'tyou just tell me if I'm good enough or
if you are interested in investing in me?
(08:27):
But I never got that answer.
So I looked around myself, Geri,and said, okay, how many women
at this university has reallysucceeded to go where I see myself?
Geri (08:40):
Mm.
Tina (08:40):
And at that time, it wasn't many.
And all of them were muchmore founded with mentors.
At the university than I was.
And honestly, many ofthem never did a postdoc.
They stayed at the university,maybe did one visiting year
and then come back to the lab.
I stayed six years at the MaxPlanck and that was too many
(09:03):
years to come back 'cause I wasdisconnected with the local ecosystem.
Yeah.
So this is course something Iuse in my coaching, how to start
strategically a research career.
Don't do it the way I did it.
It doesn't work.
You know, it'll be very, very hardeven though there are many ways to
Rome, but there are ways that youcan make it smoother and easier.
(09:28):
Mm-hmm.
And this is some of my executivecoaching I do today with professors,
particularly young professors.
So that was my natural talents, I call it.
It didn't fit.
And the more I worked in academia,the more sort of de-energized I got.
And when you're de-energized, youare not a very good supervisor.
(09:51):
Mm-hmm.
So I wasn't very good in leading my group,but I was young, I was 35 years old.
So what can we expect from sucha young person to be able to
lead a group with no support?
It's too much.
Yeah.
Geri (10:06):
So it sounds like a very brave decision, especially in 2005, 2006, to
actually say, no, this isn't for me.
Tina (10:18):
No, it's not for me, but for me, maybe it was easy because
I'm not from an academic family.
So I come from a family with noacademic track record and they're
more involved in sales and business.
So.
I also think, lookingback, I am a bit like this.
When thing doesn't work out, Isay, why not try something else?
(10:40):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
That's maybe why I was a good scientist.
You know, I'm very open-minded andcurious, so why not test something else?
Why not go in a completelydifferent direction trying to
connect the dots differently?
So I use a lot of intuition, so myfeeling, if I put it up, my stomach
feeling when I changed was in orderfor me, because it was not easy
(11:04):
to call around and look for a jobbecause everyone expected you to stay.
It was, and I want tochange and pivot completely.
Okay.
So I, I get into a completely differentnetwork where I learn sales and
marketing because that is a skill,whatever you do in the future.
It's gonna be very good to have.
Geri (11:24):
Mm.
Tina (11:25):
At the same time I learned that I was more interested
in people maybe in science.
Yeah.
Again, as a woman, I was interestedin people, something I really didn't
know at the time being, but I knowthat today and the reason I like to
go to Germany was that apart fromdoing great science, I was in Germany.
(11:47):
I learned a language, I met new people,so that was also, you know, my curiosity
about the new culture and all of that,that was important in Germany, which
of course didn't get back when I cameto Sweden because here people were
not interested in what I've done inGermany had no interest whatsoever.
For me, it was how can't yoube interested in what happened
(12:10):
with me for the six years?
But I learned that, so I went into salesand marketing in the recruitment business
where I could combine people interest.
Sales and marketing, but Idid something smart here.
When I got that recruitment job,I said, I'm going to be the first
PhD recruiter, so I understand PhDsthat wants to do what I have done.
(12:35):
You know, they also find it very,very hard to get a job, but I will
understand the background and I canexplain it and express it for companies.
So that was my niche and that was theonly reason I got the job, because
this company could see that potential.
Geri (12:54):
And so you came up with that as a niche in going and talking to
the company that gave you the job?
Mm-hmm.
That's really interesting.
That's a really great insight.
At the intersection of,you know, like it Yeah.
You talked about doinga complete pivot away.
Yeah.
But also drawing across some threads.
Tina (13:13):
That's Tina Persson.
This is me.
I've done it so many times.
I did it in science.
But this is also I think, a mindset.
I have trained myself.
Mm-hmm.
I always tell nowadays to myclients, you must learn to
see the unseen opportunities.
We talk about hidden jobs, that onething, but unseen is really that
(13:36):
you connect dots by accumulatinginformation, connecting new information,
and draw some conclusions so you cansee things happening in the future.
That means, what I call it,you can see around corners.
So when an opportunity come, you takeit because you already know that might
that that might be the best option.
(13:58):
The moment.
Mm-hmm.
And that have happened so manytimes in my life, and this is that.
I tend to say I'm somehow a little bitahead of my time, which is always for me,
like I'm always working against the wind.
Geri (14:12):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (14:12):
You know, because when I was a first PhD career coach or coach or
recruiter, that the environment didn'tunderstand why I took that move.
But after me, there are many PhDrecruiters and one of my dear friends,
I spoke with her today, Anna, she wasthe second in Sweden and she lives in
(14:34):
Stockholm and she's still a recruiter.
Mm-hmm.
And I inspired her.
So, so you know, being the firstis hard by that, there will
always be people that follow.
Geri (14:44):
Mm.
Tina (14:45):
Yeah.
And that's how it's been with me.
Yeah.
I must admit.
Yeah.
Geri (14:49):
And it's not just the unseen opportunities, but it's the way in
which you co-create the opportunity,in both seeing the potential, the
unseen, I guess, and also makingit something that can be seen.
Tina (15:06):
That can be seen.
Yeah.
And that is what I callyour show by doing.
And for that, I needto take the first step.
So being a PhD recruiter, then I learnednot only sales and marketing, but I
also found another gap That is thereason that I'm sitting here with you.
And that is that I had this verygood intention to help and support
(15:30):
PhDs, postdoc, even professorsand lecturers to transition.
And I learned they can't sell themself.
They can't extract their competence.
Geri (15:41):
From academia, from academia into industry context.
Tina (15:44):
Exactly.
They talk, but no one understands andsee the value ? And I say, you know,
it's great to tell your life story inacademia and all your science, just that
you need to rephrase it so the companycan see the value, what you offer.
And that is something I had naturally,it was easier for me somehow to adapt
to that, where I could see many of the,one I tried to recruit to companies
(16:08):
and in fact, Geri, some companiescalled me back and gave me feedback.
Tina don't send these peopleand they're really weird.
And I said, no, they're not.
It's just a different language.
So, so I said, you know, I wasfighting there, but I learned that.
I learned, okay, I can't sell them.
So it needs, they need another support.
(16:29):
I can't give them as a recruiter.
Uh, and that is slowly thenyou can hear moving over to.
Me doing, oh, you know, I hadthree years in between starting
my company where I said, okay, Ithink I need to be a career coach.
I need to be a coach.
Mm.
Because that's the only way I, Ireally can help this clientele,
(16:50):
you know, to figure out whatthey want to do in the life.
Yeah.
Beyond the academic context.
And then I figure out I can do it inside.
So that is another transition basedon information that I gathered eight
years as a recruiter and consultantmanager, because I stayed, I stayed
eight years in the corporate world.
Geri (17:11):
And how long have you been then working as the career coach?
Um, and with your own company?
Tina (17:18):
That's another eight years.
Another eight years.
Another eight years something.
Yeah.
Geri (17:23):
So I, I do wanna get to actually, you know, for the professor sitting there
employing people and picking good people.
But if you are working with some ofyour PhDs who want to move into a
different sector out of academia.
Tina (17:38):
Mm-hmm.
Geri (17:39):
How do you talk to them about communicating so
that they can connect Yeah.
To a non-academic audience, to
Tina (17:47):
a non non-academic audience.
That's a process that I call naturaltalents that I identify myself.
It's based on, it'sactually Sarah Blackford.
Um, she used Holland's theory for a veryanalog instrument that many years now.
And then I know her and I gotit and I saw, oh, that's cool.
And then AI came Chat GPT.
(18:09):
Mm-hmm.
And then I realized, Hmm, wait a minute.
It's not about, we talk alot in academia about values.
They, they get too much of the value.
They get too much aboutstrength and weaknesses.
You don't need to be perfecton those things because you
can develop that with time.
But to sell yourself, if I put it inthat terminology so people understand
(18:31):
and see the value that lies inthat, you know where you're going.
So if you take a look on yournatural talents, that's going
back to what I felt in academia.
I feel I don't get energy from my job.
That is, if you use Holland's theory,which is based on, you know, you can
take, if you have a practical approach,hands-on approach, you're being
(18:53):
maybe more investigative, a bit moreenterprising, a bit more supportive.
Now a bit more, let's say creativejobs or administrative job.
You have sort of a mixture there.
By knowing, looking back on whatgave you energy doing in the past.
Mm-hmm.
You can write a simple diary.
I can help my clients to translatethat to actually a job field.
(19:17):
Nice.
Uh, and this is very easy to do that.
And by using Chat GPT, it's just amazingbecause from that very positive thinking,
not looking at what I don't like, youfocus 100% of what gives you energy.
You can learn to communicate eventhough you don't know the job.
(19:38):
You can say, do you know what?
I'm in academia, you know,industry much better than I do.
I can tell you what gives me energydoing and based on that might be
you can support me where I fit in.
Yes.
And people love to help you there.
Because you not look for a job, but youstill look for a job in an indirect way.
(20:00):
And this is how I helpmy client to start with.
And from there, we can then buildboth LinkedIn profiles, we can take
it to, uh, a resume, a LinkedInprofile, interviews and et cetera,
et cetera, building confidence.
Mm-hmm.
And this is a positive way for a critical mindset, PhD postdoc,
(20:21):
to move into a positive mindset.
Talking Yes.
Positively about, yes.
Yeah.
Geri (20:27):
So when they're at their best, you know, like when they're
really energized by their work,
Tina (20:33):
where they thrive, as I say, you are thriving.
And this is also what professorslistening here, because we become.
To, to the tips here, but this isalso how they should build the group.
They need a mixture of people inthe team thriving differently.
Yeah.
Yes.
So you have some sort of diversity
Geri (20:51):
Yes.
Tina (20:52):
In personalities, but not only in personalities, in their natural talents.
Yes.
Which I call drives the motivation.
Yes.
And this is a big mistake.
They get too many of the same kind.
Mm-hmm.
Geri (21:03):
So, you know, you said when you had your group and you didn't
like writing and the sort of the,the articles and it sounds like the
trying to chase the grants and funding.
Yeah.
Looking back with what you knownow, do you see a way that you
may have been able to have usedthis sort of natural talents lens?
Tina (21:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
In building a
Geri (21:24):
team where you collectively covered those bases.
Tina (21:27):
Yeah, and I was not that wrong at it.
It was just a coincidencehere that unfortunately,
the political landscapewasn't very healthy.
It was very toxic environment at the time.
Um.
When I started, I very quickly hadsort of a smaller group and I knew my
strength, uh, in many ways indirectly.
(21:49):
I, I'm, you know, I'm the one thatget all the new ideas, connect things.
Mm-hmm.
Then there was a woman, Sophia, hername was, she was extremely good
in writing and structure things.
So we started to collaborateand that worked amazingly.
Mm.
One day it stopped and I have sort of a feeling that was some political power
in the house disconnecting us to women.
(22:12):
Mm.
'cause we were very successful.
So if you Google Tina Persson and Sophia,you will find many articles what we did.
Mm.
And
when I look back on it, I think, wow, we did that
in that short time period.
Really groundbreaking.
Yeah.
Uh, but you know, this is again, thatwe were strong together, but the system
in academia is don't work together.
(22:32):
You should promote yourself.
Yeah.
And, and this is so degenerating becausethat also creates researchers like PhDs
and postdocs, young research being tooindependent, thinking about themself so
they don't get this sort of team ability,you know, work collaborative in a team.
Yeah.
Which is the only thingcompanies look at, because if
(22:57):
you can't be in a team, you know?
Yes.
Geri (23:00):
And it's also, I mean, as you indicated working with
Sophie, it's not just additive.
You bring your two pieces of what you aregood at, and she brings her two pieces.
There's something more that happens.
There's a, there's a synergy andan extra energy boost, you know,
with the collective that, um,
Tina (23:17):
collective comes from that.
So, I could put it this way, if anyonelistening here and whether you are sitting
inside academia trying to, you know, fightyourself through the academic context or.
You in industry and you feel thatyou're stuck and you're frustrated.
It might be that you haven't sort ofgrounded yourself in the ecosystem.
(23:41):
Uh, and for that is whatwe call in industry.
You need to have a strong abilityin emotional intelligence, which
means that building relationships,motivating people, social skills.
Yeah, yeah.
And ability to recruit the rightpeople, and communicate in a right way.
(24:02):
Yeah.
Many people make their manager theirenemy, and I said, it's not very smart
because you have to collaborate with yourmanager, learn to collaborate with us.
So, because no one's gonnapromote you if they don't see
the value of working with you.
Yeah.
And that is both in and at the university.
Yeah.
Geri (24:23):
And you want them to promote you in line with what
you're energized by as well.
Yeah.
So how do you communicate that?
Tina (24:30):
How do you communicate?
Well, I can't sit here and do teaching.
If you take that I'm not teaching.
For me, I wasn't particularly interested,but I can be on stage to sell things.
It's two different things.
So I should have had a completelydifferent job inside Academia, but I
could have started to get, you know, I gotmy Docent and from there, most likely I
(24:50):
should have moved into more, more externalaffairs, external or something like.
Geri (24:56):
That's, and that's the value of, of, um, the earlier we can get a
sense of what our natural talents are.
Absolutely.
The more we can think about what are thedifferent possibilities that will enable
those talents to to to blossom, to grow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's early.
Independent of the titleof the role that you're in.
Tina (25:16):
It's so important.
Uh, I have been prepared alittle bit for this podcast,
so I wrote something down here.
And that is that you should, when you area professor and, and you're recruiting
people, you know, it is very importantthat from the day you get a new PhD or
new postdoc, that they start early onor you start early on to support them
(25:39):
in the career development, whether,you know, and that's another point
for the reason they have come to you.
So that means that this is extremelyimportant in an environment where you have
so much of temporary positions mm-hmm.
That they get an early support soyou can build psychological safety.
Mm-hmm.
And psychological safety is there,so it's, you can be open to discuss
(26:05):
different career trajectory.
Not only that, you should stay in academiaalso, that it is okay to leave because it
is, when you are open discussing this, youwill probably succeed to retain the ones
you want because they feel more secure.
Mm.
Yeah.
Because the more they know about theiroptions, the more secure they will
(26:26):
feel and the better, more efficientpeople will work in your group.
Yeah.
And I've been coaching Geri, so manyPhDs and postdocs that I would put it
this way, it's absolutely impossible.
They can't be efficient consideringhow worried they are about the future.
(26:48):
Yes.
And how little
Geri (26:49):
Especially when we have so many shorter term contracts so that, yeah.
So I wanna pick up on this pointagain about supporting, um, early
careers in their ongoing career.
You know, like your employment of themas being part of that career journey
(27:11):
for them and how you can support themin the time that you have contact.
But one of the questions that I getasked all the time, and I don't have
a great answer always, um, is how,you know, people always struggle
with recruiting the right peopleor good people and you, so they're
(27:31):
always looking for tips and tricks.
So given your background, bothin the recruiting business and in
supporting people in the coaching,
mm.
Tina (27:43):
I would say,
Geri (27:44):
What would you say to young professors?
Yeah, young professors who are recruitingPhD students or postdocs or whatever.
Tina (27:52):
Yep.
It really depends where theyare in their academic career.
If you have young professors, theyhave funding, you know, limited
funding, they need a really sharpstrategy, you know, a sharp strategy.
Uh, and there when you grow,you have more and more funding.
You can be more strategic.
Uh, and there is also room tofail, if I put it that way.
(28:14):
With recruitment.
Yes.
When you are a young researcher,there is no room one PhD student
that doesn't deliver a post.
It could be the end or the beginning,you know, of your career basically.
So, so there you have tobe very, very cautious.
But I have some certain tips.
Uh, but before doing that, I'm gonna.
(28:35):
Just frame some sort of quote that Iwrote down here for all professor, whether
you are young or old, uh, or you areestablished, not old, that's, that was
translating Swedish to English that ismore established professor was aside.
But that is, and I, first of all, and, andI say this because I've been coaching many
(28:57):
professor among some of the KarolinskaInstitute and in Germany, Max Planck, that
is that professors strive for permanentjobs and, and they are afraid to tell
their PhDs and post up the truth or thereality because they want to be nice
(29:17):
and they want to offer them security.
And that's the wrongstart from the beginning.
So I would like to put it likethis, uh, it's a quote I wrote
before for this podcast here.
It's not about offering job security,it's about offering career security.
Mm-hmm.
Candidates will commit to your projectif they know you're serious about helping
(29:42):
them grow and land well afterward.
Geri (29:46):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (29:48):
And this is where I tell, and I'm gonna tell you what I
tell postdocs and PhDs when theysay, Tina, I want to do postdoc.
I want to start the PhD.
What professor should I choose?
So Geri, what advice doyou think I give them?
Well, it's a very simple one.
(30:08):
Today we have socialmedia, we have LinkedIn.
They can find a lot of information there.
Yep.
So I say you should go to a group whereyou can see the people that left the
group, how they succeeded afterwards, whatdid they do after the post, or how many
(30:30):
professors have that professor generated?
How many people in industryhas that professor generated?
So if you take my postdoc dad,Fritz Eckstein at the Max Planck,
I checked his list and they all inindustry, apart from some, they were
extremely successful in academia.
So that probably was a good chance that.
(30:51):
I would succeed as well.
So when we are in these times whereyou have mental health issues,
you can Google these information.
Geri (31:00):
Mm.
Tina (31:00):
You can find this information and LinkedIn and ResearchGate
or other networks, you canactually check your professor.
You, you look, look, look.
Watch them up.
Yeah.
And when I tell that to professors,is this the tip you give?
Yes.
Wow.
It's not good.
(31:21):
No.
That's why you need to beon social media to show off.
This is my lab, this is my people.
So they have all the names ofyour laboratory people, and then
they can contact them and askhow is it to work in that group?
This is how you show your brand.
And it's not about policing all the time.
(31:43):
It's to make them successful.
Doesn't mean that you always agreewith them, but you know that you have
this sort of, this is what companieshave learned and this is what they call
talent development, talent attraction,talent recruitment, and this is coming
to academia as well as really important.
So for that reason, I thinkthat is step number one.
(32:05):
You have to think when you recruittoday, okay, I'm a young researcher.
What do I actually need tosave my next three years?
Because if you go to universitiesin United States, you don't have
more than three years, then youmust support your own salary.
So you need to be extremely strategic.
(32:25):
So I would put it that way.
You have my tip one is adaptto your funding reality.
So if you have three years,it's important that you are
clear with, I have three years.
And, we never know whathappened after that.
Yeah.
But bring in the people that arecurious, open-minded, and that can live
(32:48):
with, that you have tight deadlinesand that you need publications.
'cause that's what you're gonna tell them.
I need publications, only publicationsthat are gonna take us further.
And that you hire people that youare guiding very strongly, that have
the technical skills that you need.
You know, maybe more hands on postdocs orPhDs that produce your science basically.
(33:15):
This sounds weird, but this is maybea tip you need to consider when
you are a very young researcher.
Geri (33:23):
So the realities of the funding and it's about the.
What you need from the position.
Tina (33:30):
Yeah.
Geri (33:31):
Both in terms of outputs and the inputs.
In terms of skills.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and in that, you know, if wetake your, um, supporting their, their
career security, it's also talking tothem and the about how those also fit
and support their trajectory as well.
(33:54):
In that.
Yeah.
Tina (33:54):
In this, in this case, it's harder here.
You have to be clear with that.
If, if you come to my lab.
This is what I need from you.
You know, I, I understand that someprofessors, it's very hard to say that I'm
going to, it feels like I'm using them.
Yeah.
But you have to see itfrom two perspectives here.
You need them to produce yourscience so you can publish that.
(34:15):
That's honest.
Yeah.
And you give them an opportunityto learn your science that
they can take to the next step.
Geri (34:22):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (34:23):
Yeah.
That you need to be honest with, I havethree years, so it's better that you come
and we focus on what you can learn andpublications and then early on start to
tell them that you know, now it's oneyear, two years left, or one year left.
What's your plan?
Because you know, so you early onstart with them and telling them
(34:45):
that you know, you need to look whatyou are doing after, because this is
also how you can use your network.
Yeah.
Maybe you can help them to another group.
Or you start saying maybe, you know, youshould look around what industry offers.
Geri (34:58):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (35:00):
So this is to be very open with that.
You know, you have limitedresources to keep them.
Unfortunately, some professors,they're so afraid to lose or
drop the best post docs and PhDs.
So they are living onthe hope so very late.
They know that I can't support you,and then, you know, there's not
(35:21):
enough time for the PhD and theposter to look around and orient
themself and explore other options.
Mm-hmm.
So stay honest in, in,in, in this perspective.
Geri (35:32):
Yeah.
That honesty is really critical.
Tina (35:34):
Mm.
Geri (35:35):
And it still leaves open the space for that discussion within
that honest framework about theseare the practical constraints, what
I need, um, what you can deliver.
And it, there's hopefully still scopefor that discussion that says, yeah.
Where we have some room to make decisionsor to shape what actually gets done.
Yeah, absolutely.
(35:55):
What would work towards yourcareer trajectory, whether
it's here or somewhere else?
Tina (36:00):
Honestly, this discussion is not more strange than in a company, a startup.
Mm-hmm.
You know, if, if you go back, you know,you, you're gonna start a little company.
And they say, you know, I wanta permanent job in your, yeah.
I can't offer that.
I say, no, no.
This is a startup and I, I can keepit as long as we have money in the
(36:21):
company and people are happy to join.
Mm-hmm.
And now I'm coming back towhat I said and framing.
It's not about uh, job security,it's about career, security.
Career.
Yeah.
Because if you go to a lab and yousay, you know, God, you know, she
doesn't have money or he doesn't havemoney, this young professor, but I will
learn fantastic and amazing skills.
(36:44):
And if I use my time wisely,collaborating, networking, I secure
my career because I'm learning.
So this is part of lifelong learning.
So your expectation is on that level.
This is where I tell people,leaving academia, do you know what?
(37:05):
You shouldn't look for jobsecurity because that will stop
you in the next five years.
You should take a job where you maybe risk being unemployed again in two
years, but you learn critical skills,so you are building your career.
Hmm.
By learning new skills.
Hmm.
So actually job securitycan be a false security.
Geri (37:30):
Yes.
Tina (37:31):
Because you, you know, you stop learning and this is
what academia could be seen at.
Mm.
If you have you as aprofessor, it's just open.
You know, this is my scientific group.
I'm very young.
It's very new.
It's like a startup.
Geri (37:45):
I like that analogy of it being a startup, because it, it also
reminds you that there's a senseof energy and enthusiasm about the
work that you're doing because it'sa startup and you don't quite know.
No.
But yeah, the, the contributing topotentially making something great.
Tina (38:04):
Yep.
Of, of course.
It's the potential.
Yeah.
So, and that is the same, youknow, what we need more of in
Europe to take a risk mm-hmm.
Instead of looking forthe security all the time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that comes back to, you know, Ijust take that again, that be honest
(38:24):
as a professor when you recruit Yeah.
Because if you have, you can be toughas a leader, that's good, but you
have it with a big heart and thatyou mean that, you know, if you come
here, you will learn certain things.
Yeah.
And that in any way can take you forward.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Geri (38:43):
So how do, how do you actually engage in a conversation at, say
a job interview with someone?
Because you've got the CV where youmay be able to see that yes, they do
have those technical skills I need.
But you also talked about, um, theemotional intelligence skills and the
relationship skills and so on that, youknow, I know that we're talking about for
(39:06):
professors, but I think everyone needsin terms of the working relationships,
do you have any tips for, um, people whoare recruiting PhDs or postdocs about
how to pull out the stories that mighthelp you understand more of where they're
coming from, from those sorts of skills?
Or also what might be their more naturaltalents that you know, you, you may
(39:29):
be able to sort of help develop them.
Yeah.
Tina (39:31):
Help them to develop them, you know?
Yeah.
They're usually so young whenthey are PhDs and postdocs, so
it's always a little bit harder.
But an advice that I give is that trynot only to look on the technical skills
Geri (39:44):
mm-hmm.
Tina (39:44):
But also try to figure out what drives the motivation they
have and, and future perspectives.
Uh, of course if you askstandard questions, they, oh
yeah, I'm gonna be a professor.
But if you are on the interviewsaying, do you know what, um,
that's not important for me.
If you want to be professor, go toindustry because they please you.
They tell you, of course I'm gonnastay in academia, but now that's not
(40:06):
what I'm interested in to know ifyou are gonna choose, because you
know, many things can happen in life.
I am interested in whatyou can offer in my lab.
Mm.
Yeah.
So you turn around and check how manyhas actually read about my science.
Mm.
So you can ask these questions thatyou more figure out, okay, how much do
they know about what I do and the valuethey think they can bring to what I do?
(40:30):
Mm-hmm.
And what if, if you want to do somethingdifferent in my life, what could that be?
And I would challenge professors whenthey recruit to have these more tricky
storytelling questions where they haveto use their creativity very early on.
You know, where you can actually,in one interview focus on technical
skills and in the next one moreon innovation and creativity.
(40:53):
So then you recruit differentpeople and that you let them
record a video, for example.
Or if someone like to write, becausethey are good, some are good on on
recording, some are good on writing,but it could be good to let them
record so you get a picture of them.
This is what I think, you know.
Instead of having, you know, takingindustry interviews to science, I
(41:17):
think that should develop a differentway of selecting the candidates.
Mm-hmm.
That, that's, as I see it.
Yeah.
I stand up.
Well, that's the weakness.
It doesn't make sensefor a PhD in a postdoc.
It is what they can offer in thatset, particularly postdocs, you know?
Okay.
Have you read what I'm doing?
What my son, what, what, what do you see?
What, what value can they add in?
(41:37):
What would you like to do?
Mm, yeah.
Geri (41:39):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (41:40):
Particularly if you want an, a postdoc as they call them.
You know, the ones that are maybevery innovative and like to be
independent and all of them.
It's very,
Geri (41:48):
so almost sort of looking for some energy detection about when do they,
what do they get excited about or, yeah.
Even if they can't name it inthat way because they are younger.
Tina (41:58):
No, no, no, no.
They can't name it.
But you, you, you would figure it outby listening to them if they have,
you know, or if they are a very good.
Uh, as I had in my lab, extremelytechnical, skilled postdoc that maybe
not very innovative, but can really runthe experiments because particularly
in natural science, you had a lot ofroutine experiments that needs to be done.
(42:21):
Mm.
She was absolutely fabulous doing that.
Yeah.
And that is also some driverwas of course a drive for her.
Mm-hmm.
, To go to the lab and, you know,do a lot of the same experiments.
Yeah.
And then extract the information.
So, so this is also somethingthat it's not so tricky to ask
that this is how I would like tochallenge the professors to do it.
Geri (42:42):
Mm-hmm.
I really liked also the thing about
not just relying on sort of it'sface-to-face interview, but just
recognizing that people can shine indifferent ways and writing might be
easier or recording a video beforehandthat they can think about a bit more.
So that also recognizes that not everyoneis as good at performing in the moment.
Tina (43:07):
No.
No, they're not.
Geri (43:09):
They're not.
But um, there's also the challenge,you know, I know that a recent job, uh,
advertisement that at the university Iknow attracted about 150 applications
and, the challenge and another oneactually multiple hundreds, I know
that we wanna get down to actuallybeing able to have these conversations
(43:31):
and get to the storytelling.
Any tips for that recruit?
Absolutely.
Filtering phase.
It's a funnel that's, that's areally hard phase to how do you,
Tina (43:41):
How I do that?
I heard about that a lot as a recruiterbecause, you know, for me it was
like organizing the cvs was notalways the perfect way of doing it.
I would put it this way.
Today we have AI, you can useChatGPT if you just want to
organize the, the, the cv.
But that's not optimal.
So yeah, I helped the professor inUnited States and she had 150 resumes.
(44:04):
I think, see and as I, and it's notvery efficient of you to sit there
so that you go back with the mailto all of them and let them record
a video and not complicate it.
Just why they apply what they want.
You know, simp three questionsand they just answer these
three questions with a video.
And then we to together constructedsix questions so they could write
(44:29):
an answer, only that action.
And then she had only 20 left.
Oh, okay.
And that means that the rest,they didn't put, they didn't
put the energy in replying.
So how interested are you when you don'tMm take the work of recording and writing.
So then she was down to 20 and 20people, you could actually start
(44:50):
to organize and start to call.
So
Geri (44:52):
do you mean out of the 150, only 20 came back?
Tina (44:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Geri (44:57):
Wow.
What a lot of wasted energy.
'cause that means that130 people were just Yeah.
Taking a chance and throwing outmultiple CVs throwing out multi.
Tina (45:07):
Yeah.
That's how it is.
Yeah.
And we know that in industry as well.
That's an interesting model.
No, no, it's an industry the same.
Mm.
So, and then what I did as a recruiterand spend a lot of time doing is the
next thing is they call them, and thisis maybe also with some professors, they
prefer to send emails, but you have tobe careful because you can use ChatGPT.
(45:28):
It looks really good in an email,but it's not, it's ChatGPT or
DeepSeek or whatever they call itnow that actually raise the email.
So the best thing, you can booka Zoom meeting or short call
with three questions, not more.
Uh, it takes maybe 15 minutesper call and you get a very good
(45:49):
sense of, you know, the person.
Geri (45:52):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (45:54):
That's worth it.
That's worth it.
Mm.
And then you're down easily to five.
Mm-hmm.
Geri (45:58):
And then you can bring in those last Yeah.
Pool of candidates forthe face, face-to-face and
the lab visits and things.
Tina (46:07):
Yeah.
Mm, so, so, so this is something,and I talk with my good friend,
Ana, when she's recruiting.
Now she's working in an isolatedfield, so she says, I know many of the
clients, but she also emphasized theimportance of, of talking and listening
and see people, particularly in the timewhere you can basically use ChatGPT.
(46:31):
So even though you are writing aquestion, they will start to use ChatGPT.
So it looks really good,but it's not the person that
actually constructed the answer.
Geri (46:41):
Yeah.
Well that's interesting the waythat ChatGPT, and equivalent
tools are challenging a lot ofour processes and procedures.
Tina (46:49):
Yeah.
Geri (46:50):
And just the nature of scientific work.
But then that's another,yeah, that's another topic.
Whole issue.
Yeah.
Tina (46:56):
Yeah.
So I would put it this way, thatyou should deep dive in interviews.
And go beyond the skills.
And with that I was like,you know, explore their why.
Mm-hmm.
How they think about the future, what kindof team environment they would thrive in.
(47:16):
And you know, are they lookingfor a stepping stone or a growth?
You know, is this a stepping stonefor an academic career or what
kind of stepping stone is it?
Geri (47:26):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (47:27):
Yeah.
This is, you know, digging alittle bit deeper in the interview.
Yeah.
Geri (47:32):
Yeah.
Any particular tips on how toexplore those questions with people?
Like how do you explore their why, what,what sort of questions might you ask them?
Tina (47:46):
Yeah.
In academia it is sort of, if it's aPhD position, it's a standard questions.
You know, what do you hope to learn?
Mm-hmm.
From a PhD and what are yougonna do with those learnings?
Have they thought about it?
It seems to be a simplequestion, but it's not.
Geri (48:07):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (48:10):
Many start the PhD because it's a logical step after Master's.
Yes.
Yeah.
And they don't get the jobafter the master, so they start,
and that's perfectly fine.
But you know, if they say, yeah, you know,see if they did it to be honest and it.
Yeah, I, I don't know.
I just applied.
I thought the topic was good.
Okay.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
But what do you know about my topic then?
Mm-hmm.
I have a very, you gave a very goodidea how much they actually know.
Geri (48:33):
Mm.
Tina (48:34):
And I can share with you, Geri, when I applied for postdoc for Fritz
Eckstein, I didn't know what he was doing.
So Fritz called me and askedthese questions, say, I really
don't know, but I know one thing.
I don't want to do organic chemistry,but I want to go lab where the professor
know organic chemistry and know howto transition to molecule biology.
That was the only thing I knew Fritzsaid, well, that's the right place though.
(48:58):
But I didn't know his science, you know,I learned it when I came, but mm-hmm.
That could be an explanation.
Mm-hmm.
So it doesn't mean that they have to be anexpert, but understand the why, you know?
Yeah.
What do you hope to learn from a PhD?
What was the reason for you toapply for this particular position?
What do you hope to do after your PhD?
(49:19):
Just to hear how the answer.
Geri (49:20):
Mm-hmm.
And that points to the importanceof honesty on both sides.
Yeah.
Like, you know, as you said before, youcan give the answers that people Yeah.
That you think they expectto hear or that might Yeah.
Get you the job, but then you'vegotta get in and do the job.
And if you've lied or if you'vemisrepresented what you care
about or what your why is,and there is a basic mismatch.
(49:42):
Yeah.
That's.
It's scary.
This is not a very wise decision.
Tina (49:45):
No, it's not wise.
And this is where I coach my Yeah.
PhD for a job in industry.
They are sitting googlingwhat the perfect answer is.
And I say it's not a very goodstart because that is not you.
You have to be honest.
You must say.
Well, I don't know.
Or you can say, oh,that's a good question.
I have no clue actually.
And you know, do you know what?
(50:05):
I just applied, I applied for somany jobs, so, uh, and I applied,
but I'm so happy to be invited.
And before the interviewI checked your company.
That's perfectly fine.
It just shows that you had highactivity and didn't really have
time to check all the job ads.
Geri (50:23):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (50:23):
It's not a single person, they wouldn't understand that.
But it is about, you know, beinghonest about why you do it.
And, but that is also what professorsthen need to have in mind to have fun.
So if they say, do you know whatapplied for 50 academic jobs?
You are one of them, but I'm desperate.
I want to do a PhDbecause of, you know, yes.
(50:46):
That's also way of standing out, you know?
Geri (50:51):
Do you see any differences, you know, you talked about,
um, coaching or working withpeople in different countries.
Do you see any differences,particularly across countries?
Tina (51:02):
Oh yeah, it's big culture differences.
Yeah.
Europe, it has differencesbetween the, the countries.
I would say, uh, United States isdifferent, even though the Western
world, I would say is very similar.
But then you have the big continent,India, you know, and you have the
Asian world is very, very different.
How you perceive, you know, andhow you want to present yourself.
(51:24):
Mm.
Also, how you want to, you know, be maybeled and, and how you phrase and that
is closely connected to a topic that weneed to discuss more in the future maybe.
And that is the title.
In some countries like Sweden,the title is not important.
It can be disadvantage.
You can use your title, whichyou mean like doctor, doctor.
(51:45):
I have doctor on my LinkedIn andwhen I'm in Sweden, they comment
that every time and I say I haveit because I work internationally.
Yeah, okay.
They say, but if it was so thatI wanted to brand myself and look
for a job in Sweden, it absolutelynecessary I remove the title.
Geri (52:03):
Okay.
Tina (52:04):
Yeah.
And this is important when I careercoach people in Sweden that could you
please stop talking about your title?
It's not an advantage, you know, here yougo in and you need to be one in the team.
And it doesn't matter what titleyou have, your expertise you have,
if people don't want to work withyou, you will not move forward.
(52:26):
Yeah.
So forget your title at the moment.
Yeah.
You have to to show it differently.
Mm-hmm.
Whereas you go to Germany,title is no problem, France.
No problem.
So you sort of, there you need it,but it's even more important in India.
Geri (52:41):
Mm.
A title.
Tina (52:43):
A title.
Yeah.
So, so, so there we havedifferences in, in the coaching
and how we present ourself.
Mm-hmm.
But I think if you look in the futureand now coming to something that I
think also academia are going to be veryimportant, but we haven't discussed so
much about, and that is that when weintroduce AI In both science or in career
(53:07):
coaching or in industry, I think itwas McKinsey or PWC They found a study.
Uh, they did a study where they couldshow that it took very young consultancies
and older ones experienced one.
And when allowed to use AI, the gap inskill and knowledge became always equal.
Geri (53:30):
Mm mm
Tina (53:31):
That means that you can, with the right use of AI compensate.
With that said means that you canhave a PhD title, you can have an ex
high exam from the academic world,but since people can use AI, they
can very well start to compensate.
Mm-hmm.
So PhDs need to usethis skills differently.
(53:53):
And this is also what Iintroduced to my coaching, you
know, be more critical mindset.
Geri (53:58):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (53:59):
Analyzing, connecting the dots, coming from a different perspective there.
And that is what we calltransferable skills.
Geri (54:07):
Mm-hmm.
That's interesting about the differentchallenges now that AI is both
leveling the, leveling the field a bit.
Yeah.
And also making differentskills, um, more important.
Tina (54:25):
Yeah.
It is human skills.
It's the human skills.
And I say we go from, with thehelp of AI, our human skills.
Geri (54:33):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (54:34):
Gonna be more important than ever.
Mm-hmm.
And that is what we arenot training in academia.
Geri (54:39):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (54:39):
Yeah.
So here we also have is a gap.
Uh, so human-centric skills.
Mm-hmm.
It's gonna be very, veryimportant to develop.
Geri (54:47):
I totally agree.
So important.
Um, because human-centric skills areat the core of what you said about
once you've employed your PhD studentor your postdoc, the focus then on
how do you work with them to planand manage their career path so that
(55:08):
this is about secure, um, career.
You know, like helpingthem learn and develop.
Yeah.
So that, that needs skills to know howto have that conversation very early.
Very early, and work out what'slearning and development for this
person and where do they wanna go to.
Tina (55:27):
And you know, something.
I discussed with some of my clientsthat they say, you know, I have a post
that dreaming of an academic career.
Geri (55:36):
Mm.
Tina (55:37):
And you know, there could be many reasons behind it.
It could be family reasons,it could be status reasons.
It could be that they have beendreaming of it like me, you know, and
then, you know, but he, it's no whythis person got to be able to perform
an academic career, at least not inthis country, not this institute.
Because that's simple, notthose skills, you know?
(56:00):
Mm-hmm.
Because a successful professor today, theyneed a, you know, human centric skills.
Yes.
But they need basically to runtheir own company, you know, they
need to be very enterprising.
And enterprising contact that I'm ableto network and connect with people and
to understand where is the world going?
(56:20):
Where is the next funding opportunity?
And if, if you don't have that sortof, then it will be very challenging.
But you can still stay in academia,but at another level maybe.
Geri (56:30):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (56:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or you just say, no, youbetter go somewhere else.
Maybe there's a staff position for youor you, you decide for something else.
Mm-hmm.
These discussions, I know manyprofessors have a hard time to take,
you know, to, to tell them that,you know, no, it's an end here.
Geri (56:50):
So that's a different form of honesty.
That's, yeah.
Challenging.
Tina (56:54):
It's, yeah, it's, and as a career coach, coach, I've been
there many times myself, I have tophrase it differently, but it's, you
know, it's really hard discussions.
Mm-hmm.
Geri (57:05):
But it is a gift to be able to have that discussion well with people.
'cause it's not about, you are notgood for this, but there are places
that are gonna be a better, what, youknow, where it's gonna be a better
match for your natural talents.
Tina (57:17):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
A better match for you.
Mm-hmm.
It's about matching.
Yeah.
And I, you know, in the future,that's gonna be even more
important even for companies.
Geri (57:26):
Mm.
Tina (57:26):
Because they, they are transforming so quickly now.
So you can be very well in one.
Position for quite a while, and thensuddenly it's not there any longer.
Mm-hmm.
And you have to pivotsomewhere completely else.
Yeah.
We call it upskilling and transformation.
Geri (57:42):
Yeah.
I know.
The pivoting is going to be all the moreimportant even within, even when you
are in supposedly a secure position.
Yes, of course.
Tina (57:52):
Secure position.
Yeah.
Geri (57:54):
The, the pivoting in how you interpret that and play it out.
I mean, even what we see now with peoplein, you know, people who are lecturing
courses in universities, having torethink what does it mean to lecture?
What does it mean to learn?
What does it mean to assesslearning when people have access
to these, you know, oh yeah.
ChatGPT and tools related tools.
Tina (58:16):
I just say, I, I, I say I am a career coach, leadership
coach, call me, whatever.
And I gave, uh, a seminar for onlinefor people, career coaches in Singapore,
and they said, you know, but Tina.
You talk about AI, you know, becauseI give it a seminar about how to
use AI as your career ally, as acareer coach to support your client.
(58:41):
And, and I discussed it, andit's a lot about natural talents.
And so, but there must be a risk, Tina,that we, we are not needed in the future.
And my, my logical answer, of course.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It could very well be.
But that's a fact.
We can't change a fact.
It's more how we orient ourself, buthonestly, we've been there before.
Hmm.
It's been in UK when spinning Jenny came.
(59:04):
Yes.
And people are, we arenever gonna get a job.
But the fact was that spinningjenny generated more jobs.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it could be that I'm notthe career coach in the future.
I might be something else, but youknow, we need to go hand in hand
with, with the technology sort of,and, and, and if you're open-minded,
you, you will find a new path.
Geri (59:26):
This goes back to your unseen opportunities.
Yes.
That you said at the very beginningand about having agency and helping
to shape and create those as.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, so it does paint a veryinteresting, exciting, challenging
picture of careers in the future thatwe're always going to be challenged and
need to reinvent, whether it's changingfrom a limited contract to another
(59:51):
limited contract or even within a role.
Um, and that we need to look out forthose personal skills that people have
and, and their natural talents andhow we can be mutually beneficial.
Hmm.
Yeah.
So this has been reallyinteresting and stimulating.
Tina, are there any things thatwe've not talked about that you think
(01:00:11):
would be important just around that?
Tina (01:00:13):
Yeah, I have something I like to challenge the professors with.
I am quite sure some professors alreadydo it, but they do it in industry.
And that is that when you aregonna recruit people, invite
your team into the process.
So let the team evaluate the people,I think, you know, because you
(01:00:34):
know they're gonna work in a team.
Yeah.
So, and, and that if you have awell-functioning team, they like
to work with you for a reason.
They can help you in the process.
And also that I know, and I like tochallenge some, uh, you know, professors
that help your team to attract talentsby allowing them to be on social media,
(01:00:57):
because it is, as I wrote, build a culturein your group that attracts talents.
Then you don't have to advertiseor you, maybe if you advertise,
you get the ones you want becausethat is word spread today.
So if your former PhDs and postdocsare thriving afterlife and say they
(01:01:25):
felt seen and supported, you willnever struggle to recruit again.
Geri (01:01:30):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
That is really interesting too, that
giving to people and that the, like,it continues to give on in a way.
And that's, that's about buildingculture as well because they carry
(01:01:52):
forward that same attitude of careand helping people learn and develop.
Yeah.
Tina (01:02:00):
And as a professor, you, when the people are leaving
your group, you grow with them.
Geri (01:02:05):
Mm-hmm.
Tina (01:02:06):
So they will be your next generation collaborators and et cetera.
Yes.
This is what really, you know,some greater professors that
I know that I admire, that isa system they are using a lot.
So they get a referralsystem, alumni system.
Yeah.
Supporting them.
Geri (01:02:23):
Yeah.
And again, that comes back to theemotional intelligence skills, the
relationship skills that as yousaid, we are not so good in academia
at actually helping people develop,and yet they're, they're core to
building your research group in whichpeople can thrive and, um, yeah.
(01:02:44):
Helping them with their career journeys.
Yeah.
Tina (01:02:47):
It would change a lot in academia if they could get that sort of culture.
Yeah.
I put it that way.
Yeah, it would happen a lot.
Yeah.
It's much more innovation going on,uh, in academia than it is today.
Mm-hmm.
Because I know, I know there's hugemental health problems, not only
among PhDs and postdocs, but alsoamong professors and lecturers.
Geri (01:03:09):
Yes, yes.
Yeah.
And our culture and, and you know,the systemic issues that you talked
about, as well as the local culturethat people are experiencing.
Big contributors to that.
Tina (01:03:21):
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
So if someone is listening to this andI say, you know, maybe I should go,
but I'm a professor, it's not possible.
Yes.
It's, I know it.
It is possible to pivot.
It's never too late.
Yes, yes.
Never too late.
Yeah, it's possible.
Geri (01:03:39):
And you're paying a cost either way, aren't you?
Yes.
Like if you stay just because youthink you ought to, or it's too
scary to pivot and you are in thatde-energized zone, what a cost.
Tina (01:03:52):
It's a huge cost, uh, emotionally, and it's a cost on your health.
And, and sort of, as youknow, we have one life.
So, and you don't know it is about theunseen, so it's just a decision you took.
It doesn't mean you can't comeback in a different shape.
Mm-hmm.
I, it, it, you know, I'm contributing withmy why in academia in a different way.
(01:04:15):
Yes.
So, so it's sort of coming back,but I'm still on the periphery.
I realize that.
Yeah.
So, so I think, but I also understandbecause if you leave, it's like leaving.
I can see some similarities when I workedas recruiter, 2000, well now let's see,
2006, 2007, around there, I'm not rememberany longer, but we had AstraZeneca, uh,
(01:04:41):
Lund in, in Sweden, and they had fused,it was Astra then Zeneca in UK and
they decided to close the site in Lund.
You know, it was just 700 researchers,I think it was, and everyone, you know,
they thought, oh no, it's gonna be awful.
But afterwards, it just.
They said, you know, it wasreally good because so many
good things came out of it.
(01:05:02):
But this is to sort of have the mindsetalso that I understand if you have
been working in a company or in aculture like academia, it's a culture.
It is like leaving a family.
And we have to be awareof, this is psychology.
If you leave a family like academia,uh, I was like, it's like people
(01:05:23):
gonna cite, you can't do it.
They're gonna tell you it's gonnabe awful, it's gonna be terrible,
and they will do everything theycan to pull you back to the family.
But that's the moment you have tosay, do you know I love you, but it's
time for me to do something else.
Geri (01:05:37):
Yeah.
And I, I think that's a lovelypoint to finish on, that you can
still connect to your why Yeah.
And bring that through, and that youcan still use your natural talents Yes.
In different ways, in differentdomains, in different career paths.
Yes.
Yes, you can.
Oh, thank you, Tina.
This has been really, really interesting.
And if people wanted to find outmore about what you offer and that,
(01:05:58):
where would you point them to?
Tina (01:06:00):
I would point them either to my mail that's tina@passagetopro.com
or to my web page, uh, passage to pro.com.
Mm-hmm.
You find me also on LinkedIn, so it'sjust to connect with Tina Persson.
Yeah, yeah.
And reach out to me.
Geri (01:06:15):
I like the passage to pro because that does imply that the pivoting
isn't just a moment to another moment.
It's a journey.
Tina (01:06:22):
It's a journey.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I actually got people saying, wait, why?
Why do you say Passage to pro?
Because you're never pro.
Hmm.
Yeah.
' Geri (01:06:32):
Cause it's always this ongoing.
Tina (01:06:33):
Yeah, it's ongoing.
Geri (01:06:35):
Yeah.
Lifelong learning.
Thank you very much, Tina.
Tina (01:06:39):
Thank you Geri, for inviting me.
And it's been absolutely lovely tobe invited to chat and thank you
for this amazing talk with you.
It was really, really comfortable andinteresting, uh, talking with you.
Great.
Geri (01:06:53):
Thank you.
You can find the summary notes, atranscript and related links for this
podcast on www.changingacademiclife.com.
You can also subscribe to ChangingAcademic Life on iTunes, Spotify.
And I'm really hoping that we canwiden the conversation about how
(01:07:16):
we can do academia differently.
And you can contribute to this by ratingthe podcast and also giving feedback.
And if something connected withyou, please consider sharing this
podcast with your colleagues.
Together we can make change happen.
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