September 5, 2023 • 39 mins
Experience the gratifying journey of Dr. Alison McEwen, a pioneer in genetic counseling, and the current president of the Human Genetics Society of Australasia. Embark with us as we traverse Alison's path of setting up the UTS Genetic Counseling course, her innovative philosophy of creating 'brave spaces' that inspire students to push their boundaries, and her dedication towards a client-centered approach in healthcare. Dr. McEwen also takes us through her riveting PhD journey focused on familial cancer, the heart of her research, and her implementation of a philosophy of practice in genetic counseling. Gain insights into her work at the Human Genetics Society of Australasia and her reflections on the World Congress of Genetic Counseling. This episode is a must for anyone intrigued by genetic counseling and the enriching challenges of establishing a course in the field. So, get ready to be enlightened, entertained and left craving for more. It's time to peek behind the curtain of genetic counseling with Dr. Alison McEwen! https://profiles.uts.edu.au/Alison.McEwen
Demystifying Genetics is sponsored by TrakGene https://www.trakgene.com/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt Burgess (00:00):
G'day.
My name is Matt Burgess and I'ma genetic counselor, and this
is my podcast, the MystifyingGenetics.
Today, in the studio, I amchatting with genetic counselor
Dr Alison McEwen.
She is a genetic counselor, anacademic and the current
president of the Human GeneticsSociety of Australasia.
(00:22):
We talk about her researchinterests, including the online
education of genetic counselorsand some of her published
articles.
Hello, alison, and welcome tothe Mystifying Genetics.
Alison McEwen (00:36):
I'm Matt.
It's nice to see you after allthese years.
Matt Burgess (00:40):
I know Thank you for coming on.
So I think last time we spokeyou lived in Sydney, but now you
live back in New.
Zealand.
I must admit I absolutely loveNew Zealand.
It did take me quite a while toget there.
I didn't go until I was in my30s, but yeah, I love it.
(01:00):
Whereabouts do you live?
Alison McEwen (01:03):
So I live on the Capiti Coast, which is about 45
minutes north of Wellington andit's on the west coast of the
North Island, so we get fabulous, fabulous sunsets.
So I live in a kind of beachsuburb and we've got enough land
(01:28):
to grow a lot of our vegetables.
We've got chickens and beehivesand, of course, our dog, who
I've been out with this morning.
Matt Burgess (01:38):
So yeah, oh, lovely Is that, rosie.
Alison McEwen (01:42):
Yeah, that's Rosie Yep.
Matt Burgess (01:45):
It's funny because I kind of had this impression
of you living this idyllic lifeon a farm with the animals,
being able to work remotely butthen live this amazing life.
So I'm glad that my idea wasprobably it sounds like that's
how you're living in real life.
Alison McEwen (02:07):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I really value the
opportunity to work remotely inthis way because, you know, our
families are in Aotearoa, newZealand, and our parents aren't
getting any younger.
So it's really important for us, particularly when the pandemic
came, that we were close tothem, to be able to provide
(02:33):
support for parents and for ourchildren who are in their late
20s now, yeah, and I think Imean you know, so I really value
that.
I think you know idyllic lifeis perhaps an overestimation.
There's a lot of work involvedgrowing food and that kind of
(02:55):
thing but I think having thatopportunity to ground myself
absolutely literally in the soiland the earth is it keeps me in
a good place to be able to dothe work that I'm involved in.
Matt Burgess (03:14):
Fantastic, it sounds amazing.
I would love to come and visitand, you know, have a glass of
wine and enjoy ourselves Totallysure.
Now what I'm about to say.
Maybe it's a little bit cheeky,but I feel like the genetic
counselling course that youstudied probably wasn't the best
genetic counselling coursearound, but then you went on and
(03:38):
founded one of the best geneticcounselling course in the world
.
I think how important was itfor you to set up a really sort
of robust and rigorous geneticcounselling course.
Alison McEwen (03:53):
It was incredibly important and I guess I think
you know.
For me, everything, all of thework, comes back to our clients.
It comes back to theindividuals and families with
inherited conditions, andwhatever role a genetic
counsellor goes into whetherit's in a laboratory or in a
(04:17):
research role, in a policy roleor in a clinical role I feel
like everything comes back tothose people who are the end
users of the work that we do.
And so, for me, the heart ofgenetic counselling is around
how we can connect and engagewith people, how we can
(04:40):
communicate with them andsupport them through a moment in
their lives.
And I hope that through theprogram at UTS, we're equipping
students to deliver reallystrongly evidence-based
healthcare with the emphasis oncare.
(05:01):
And I think it's interestingbecause, you know, the training
has evolved so much over theyears and you and I, you know,
have come through that time ofevolution of training in
Australasia and I think it wasreally important that we started
(05:24):
somewhere and that we movedtowards where we wanted to be.
You know you need a foundationor a jumping off point to grow
from.
Matt Burgess (05:37):
Right.
I think one of the things Ireally admire about you is how
important that evidence base isto you.
I see that you conduct research, you put a lot of thought and
effort into it and then youpublish it.
I think that it's reallyimportant to actually have it in
(06:00):
the literature and talk aboutit, so it becomes part of the
culture.
I think that that's somethingthat you do really well.
Alison McEwen (06:09):
Wow, thank you.
Matt Burgess (06:11):
So in founding and I guess an example of that is
when you were founding the UTSGenetic Counseling course, so,
University of Technology Sydney,a few years ago you conducted
some research about the geneticcounseling needs in Australasia
and how to provide a courseonline and just logistics and
(06:34):
what was needed.
Was that a difficult process togo through?
Alison McEwen (06:41):
I guess when I went into that role a few years
ago I spoke at the WorldCongress of Genetic Counseling
and I talked about this conceptof brave spaces.
I guess for a long time ineducation we've thought about
the idea of a safe space forstudents.
There's some literature thatsuggests that actually students
(07:10):
will learn more in a brave space.
A brave space is where we wantour students to have a starting
point and to challengethemselves with ideas or with
their skill development so thatthey are supported to do that.
(07:31):
But also they have to step outof their comfort zone and into a
space where they test whatthey're capable of doing.
I feel like for me, going to UTSto establish the program that
was my brave space.
(07:52):
I stepped right outside mycomfort zone.
I spent a long time with that,the idea that I had to be the
change that I wanted to see inthe profession, and I had the
mantra of fake it till you makeit.
We get those ideas of a dark ora swan gliding along the top of
(08:18):
the water and, of course, underthe water our feet are
furiously paddling and that'swhat it felt like with going to
UTS to establish the disciplineand the program In that time,
when I first got there and itwas just me, I was the team for
six months I had to think aboutwhere do I start and for me
(08:44):
everything comes back tocollaboration and to
communication and to makingthose connections that have
enabled the discipline, the team, the program to develop and the
way it has.
I wanted to bring people fromthe profession on the journey.
(09:07):
I went out and I asked peoplewhat do you think should be in
the training?
It was kind of a looselyco-design process.
It wasn't really research.
It was a whole series ofconversations that we then wrote
about.
From that point, once my headwas around what this was going
(09:33):
to look like, we started to doresearch.
That provides the evidence forthe way that we're teaching and
some of the learning activities.
Matt Burgess (09:45):
Right, I was so glad that you shared your
experience of setting thatcourse up and I guess I never
assumed that it was easy, but Ithink that you did make it look
easy.
So I feel like you were thatswan from an outsider
perspective blinding along, eventhough you were frantically
sort of, you know, working inthe background there.
But I've copied a line from oneof your articles about setting
(10:10):
it up.
I really like it and so, justquoting here equipping students
with open eyes and listeningears may be the single most
important thing we can do toprepare the genetic counseling
workforce of the future, toprovide the best possible care.
And, you know, as an academicqualification at a, you know, a
well respected university, youknow, and something as sort of
(10:32):
modern as genetic counseling.
Sometimes I, you know, I worrythat it's really complicated and
it's hard, and you know it'scomplex.
But you sort of brought it backdown to the real sort of
essence of genetic counseling,you know, open eyes and
listening ears, and I think thatthat's such a good sort of
(10:52):
summary or like a good sort offoundation for your students to
have.
Alison McEwen (10:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think listening is perhapsthe most important thing that we
have to learn to do as geneticcounselors.
Matt Burgess (11:07):
Great.
Another thing that I sort ofwanted to talk to you about and
you know, maybe it was probably,you know, a better thing to do
over a cup of coffee sometime,but I never actually got a
chance to.
So, hey, I'll just ask you onmy podcast.
But I wanted to talk to youabout your PhD and I know when
(11:28):
we were preparing for, you know,this chat, you said no, I've
got many more, much morerelevant things to talk about
than my PhD, so I won't harp onabout it.
But I don't know how or why Ihad this impression, like I
remember you sort of presentingabout your PhD, you know, back
in the day, and talking about it, and I always got the
(11:49):
impression that it was a veryisolated thing.
So you were doing your PhD at auniversity where there wasn't a
discipline of geneticcounseling and I think maybe I
was just daydreaming like, oh,alison, she was by herself, she
was the only genetic counselor.
Like, was that your experienceor did I just make up a whole
story in my mind?
Alison McEwen (12:11):
No, you didn't make up a whole story in your
mind.
I guess my PhD was perhaps thebest accidental thing that ever
happened in my career.
So I was working as a clinicalgenetic counselor and I was
working I mean, my children werekind of late primary school age
(12:32):
at the time and I was workingwith a gynecological oncologist
in a shared clinical environmentand he had been collecting this
cohort of a list, basically, ofwomen who were at increased
risk of ovarian cancer and weput in an application for some
(12:54):
funding from a philanthropicorganization to interview these
women.
And we were successful in thatapplication.
And somebody said to me well,if you're going to do this, you
should do it properly.
You should enroll in researchmasters and get and learn some
research skills so that you canthen take this research forward.
(13:18):
And so I thought, oh well, okaythen.
So I enrolled in the researchmasters, we started to do this
work and we got so much data, somuch rich, wonderful story from
these women that my supervisorssaid to me I think you should
(13:39):
see if let's put in anapplication and convert this to
a PhD.
I said, oh well, okay, and so,yeah.
So my PhD was sitting in healthsciences faculty, at Otago
University, I had a supervisorwho was in Dunedin, where the
(13:59):
university is, and a supervisorwho was at a different
university but in Wellingtonwhere I was.
So I had this really wonderful,full of hard work but wonderful
five years where I was doing aPhD part time.
I was working in a clinicalrole, kind of four days a week,
(14:22):
and so I was really immersed inthis infamilial cancer in two
ways and I just loved thatexperience and the PhD came out
at the end of it.
And then, and that you know, Ithought, well, that will be the
(14:46):
end of it, I'll carry on doingsome clinical work going forward
, I'd already I've always hadthat interest in education and
so I've been involved intraining and certification
guidelines and things inAustralasia.
And and then it was as thougheverything coalesced when UTS
(15:06):
was looking to start a program.
Matt Burgess (15:09):
Wow, it must have.
It sounds like a really busytime for you.
You know, doing all of thatwith school-aged children as
well.
Ah, yes, it was.
Alison McEwen (15:21):
One of those things when you look back and
you go.
How did I do that?
Matt Burgess (15:26):
And because I, like you, know one of the themes
that came out of that.
You were looking at a cohort ofwomen and I think the idea was
that they just get on with it.
You know they'd live with likethis, you know strong family
history or this risk of cancer,but they get on with it.
And I did sort of think about,you know, if it was the opposite
(15:48):
, like if you're looking at agroup of men that were living
with an increased risk, wouldthey just get on with it or
would they sort of make a bigdrama out of it?
Or you know, I think it wasinteresting how, yeah, it was
sort of focusing on the womenand that's what came out of it.
Alison McEwen (16:06):
Yeah, and I think I mean what I explored was
whether that's a cultural way ofdoing things like, whether
that's a way of being that'scommon in New Zealand.
And I suspect that actually,men in New Zealand would mostly
just get on with it as well,that if they explored the fact
(16:31):
that they had an increased risk,that then they would just also
get on with things, and noteverybody.
But that was a really.
It was really striking how manyof the women used that phrase
during their interviews.
You know, yeah, beautiful.
Matt Burgess (16:50):
I just, yeah, I love that about the qualitative
research you know, picking up onphrases and themes and
exploring that.
So yeah, great work.
Another piece of great workthat you've done, oh, it's
something that I hadn't reallysort of come across before, but
it was a philosophy of practice.
(17:11):
And you know, my undergrad isin psychology and I didn't do a
lot of philosophy but I reallysort of do like a philosophical
sort of exploration, I suppose.
So when I found out that therewas this thing called philosophy
of practice and that you andChris wrote a paper about that
(17:33):
in relation to geneticcounseling in Australasia, I
thought, wow, this is amazing.
So can you tell us a little bitmore about what a philosophy of
practice is and how youincluded it into the master's
course?
Alison McEwen (17:48):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Chris Jacobs was the secondperson to join the team at UTS
Genetic Counseling and so weworked very closely for several
years as we developed theprogram, and now Chris has
returned to the UK and isworking in a university in
(18:11):
Surrey and going to beestablishing some training there
, and I expect that she will usethis idea of a philosophy of
practice and bring it into theUK as well.
So it's been common for quite along time for in teaching, for
example, to write a philosophyof teaching practice, and it's
(18:34):
something that universitiesoften will encourage academics
to do to think about the how andthe why of what we're doing and
what values we bring to that,and so we thought it would be
really interesting to getstudents to think about well,
(18:56):
what are all the differentvalues in genetic counseling and
what do those look like inpractice?
And actually, what do I looklike as a genetic counselor,
what's my identity and how do Iwant to practice?
So we're getting at all ofthese different ideas of when I
(19:21):
go out into the workforce, whoam I in that space, and I think
it's interesting.
We have very, reallythought-provoking discussions
with students as they grapplewith these ideas and they often
say, well, it's too early, Ican't write this philosophy of
(19:43):
practice and we talk about.
Well, actually, this is aboutthinking forward, about what are
the values that really that Ibring from my previous
experience as a person in thisworld and how do I want to take
(20:04):
those into this profession.
So it's part of developing ouridentity as a genetic counselor
and thinking about you know, whoare the genetic counsellors
that I really look to asexamples of the way that I want
(20:25):
to be and what do I see in them.
And I think it also givesstudents the opportunity to
really pull apart some of thoseideas that kind of seem to hang
on in genetic counselling, likewhether we can be directive or
(20:48):
non-directive, for example.
And yeah, so it's a.
We just encourage them to.
Well, they have to.
It's an assessment task at theend of their first year To start
to think about who am Ibecoming as a genetic counsellor
and why am I becoming that way.
And then, more recently, theHuman Genetic Society of
(21:14):
Australasia Board of Senses forgenetic counselling has hooked
this up in the reflective essaythat genetic counsellors write
as part of their certificationand asking people to start to
think about you know, why am Idoing things the way that I'm
doing them?
Matt Burgess (21:37):
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(21:58):
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(22:20):
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You know, one of the thingsthat I love about genetic
counseling is that we are solucky that we have supervision
and it's really encouraged andkind of mandated.
And you know, like, when Ithink of my own journey when I
(22:44):
finished grad school for geneticcounseling, I did feel ready
and I was confident and I wentout there.
But you know, I know that Ichanged and I evolved and I
developed.
I think that it's really lovelythat maybe the students are
saying, oh, I'm not ready towrite this or I don't know how
to, and it's like, well, that'sokay, you can write it now and
(23:05):
then.
You know that's not set instone, you know you can reflect
on that and come back to it asyou sort of progress in your
career.
Alison McEwen (23:14):
Absolutely.
Matt Burgess (23:16):
So another thing that keeps you busy is that
you're actually the currentpresident of the Human Genetic
Society of Australasia.
You are a genetic counselor.
Obviously we haven't had manygenetic counselors as presidents
, and just wondering how thatexperience has been for you.
Alison McEwen (23:34):
Yeah, so I'm the second genetic counselor to be
the president of the HumanGenetic Society of Australasia.
The first was Mary Ann Youngand she was the president when
our society was maybe around 40years old and now we're 46 years
old this year.
So it's taken us a long time toget genetic counselors into
(24:02):
these positions of, I guess,senior leadership across the
disciplines of human genetics inAustralasia, and I think that
that's probably been similar inEurope and the UK that these
combined societies have.
(24:25):
Perhaps early in there, in thekind of formation and in the
early years of the societies,it's tended to be the scientists
and the medical geneticistswho've taken these roles.
So I felt really excited and Ithink many people did in the
(24:48):
profession when Mary Ann wasasked to be the president, and
what I think we're demonstratingnow is that genetic counselors
you know I think there'll beanother genetic counselor in a
few more years will come intothis role.
So I think we'll take our turnin the kind of cycling through
(25:12):
that that happens in theleadership of these
organizations and I guess whatit means is that that we have an
opportunity to foreground thekey issues for genetic
counselors and so, and at thesame time to think, I guess,
(25:37):
across thinking as a geneticcounselor and the issues that
are in the forefront for us, andwhat does that mean for our
discipline colleagues across thelaboratories and the clinical
geneticists.
So so you're probably aware thatthat the really key issue for
(25:59):
genetic counselors in Australiain particular is is around
funding for genetic counseloractivity, and so we've been
doing a lot of work in thatspace with government to to try
and improve the situation, andif we're still it's a work in
(26:22):
progress.
But if we are able to, you knowthat improved funding for
genetic counseling and counseloractivity will will have a flow
on effect for our colleagues inthe labs and and for the
geneticists.
So all these things areconnected.
(26:42):
But it's been a realopportunity, I think to well for
me to understand how thingswork across the the all the
different disciplines in oursociety and and then think about
how is this all connected?
Yeah, so, and I'm coming to theend of my term the 19th of July
(27:06):
is the AGM and then I'll stepinto that ex officio role and
have an opportunity to, I guess,continue with some of the
projects that have been thatI've been heavily involved in.
But Nemi Berman will come in asthe next president, so we'll be
(27:27):
going into a better sister ledsociety.
Matt Burgess (27:32):
Excellent, oh cool .
Yeah, I really like that ideaof sort of, you know, setting up
a precedent that you know it'sbeneficial for the genetic
counselors but then it alsohelps the other you know,
members of the society, and yeah, I think that's a great way to
sort of go about it.
Now, you mentioned before yourinvolvement with the World
(27:53):
Crongrass of genetic counseling.
I think they have there beentwo, and the third one is just
about to come up, or I thinkthere's been three, because
there was one that was virtualin 2021.
Alison McEwen (28:10):
So I think it's the fourth one is just about to
happen.
Matt Burgess (28:13):
Okay, I know I was lucky enough to go to the first
one and it was my favoriteconference ever.
I absolutely loved it.
I loved every second it was.
It was such an amazingconference.
Has that been your experience?
Have you really enjoyed thisconference?
Alison McEwen (28:32):
Absolutely.
So I went to the second one in2019 and I, you know, I think
that that opportunity to stay ona campus, to eat meals together
, to have conversations in in somany different ways, and for
everybody there to be geneticcounselors from all around the
(28:54):
world and 28 countries, I think,in 2019.
Matt Burgess (29:00):
So imagine how many countries might be
represented in 2023, you know,yeah fantastic and a genetic
counselor that is not too faraway from me here in New Jersey,
new York, is Laura Hershaw andshe hosts a great podcast called
the Beagle is Landed, and Ilike what she sort of suggested
(29:24):
or said at the at one of theseconferences, and she said that
or suggested that our professionof genetic counseling has
entered adolescents, with theaccompanying struggles to
articulate a clear andindividualized identity that
typifies that developmentalstage.
Is that how you see geneticcounseling?
Is that sort of the stage thatwe're in in, especially in
(29:48):
Australasia?
Alison McEwen (29:50):
I think I mean that's I'd forgotten about her
saying that, but I heard hersaying that and that's written
in her article in the Journal ofGenetic Counseling special
issue and and I guessadolescence is really about
identity formation and and insome ways, the idea of a
(30:10):
philosophy of practice and andwhere we're at as a profession
are connected because they'reabout how do we form identities
and you know, I think one of thethings when I was early on in
the program development at UTSwas really thinking about how
(30:31):
how do we think forward into thepotential that exists for
genetic counselors and how do wethink about where genetic
counselors might work if we'renot already working in that
space?
I think, you know, in 2018, whenwe were putting the program
(30:57):
together, we knew that therewere going to that our graduates
were very likely to go intoroles that didn't exist at that
point.
So so how do we prepare peopleto take on those, the challenges
of new roles, and and whatconnects us as genetic
(31:19):
counselors, and and so you knowit is a messy sort of a time and
I guess we're probably still inthat time, in that we're seeing
genetic counselors moving intothese mainstream spaces and
thinking about what does it meanto be a genetic counselor in a
(31:39):
neurology team?
What's my role, how do I,what's my identity, what do I
bring to this team and how do Icommunicate the value that I
bring?
So to do that, we need to havea robust idea of ourselves as as
a profession.
I think so.
So that's a very long way ofsaying that.
(32:02):
I agree with what Laura said.
Matt Burgess (32:06):
Yeah, I think, practicing in Australia and then
coming to the United States andand seeing how things are done
over here and sort of comparingand contrasting, I would say,
you know, if we're using thisanalogy, maybe our American or
North American colleagues areour older sort of brothers and
sisters and maybe we're sort ofearly adolescents, but it's
(32:29):
exciting to kind of see how it'sevolving and changing and and
what that means for Australasia.
And one of your recentpublications it was only just
recently published was anarticle that you wrote with a
genetic counseling master'sstudent, so it's called
(32:51):
Invisibility of LGBTQIA PlusPeople and Relationships in
Healthcare a scoping review withLucas Mitchell and Chris Jacobs
.
It just seems like such animportant paper for our time now
.
How has that sort of beenreceived?
Alison McEwen (33:11):
So I guess I mean it's funny with papers, isn't
it?
Because you do, and I mean thatpaper took a long time to come
together.
The scoping review was huge Ithink 77 articles.
So Lucas started that duringhis master's and for his
(33:32):
dissertation he lookedspecifically at the articles
about transgender people andthen we went on with the rest of
the data that he'd collected tothink about the whole review of
visibility or invisibility ofqueer people in healthcare and
(34:01):
because there wasn't very muchin genetic counseling at the
time.
So in a really nice bit oftiming that paper was published
during Pride Month in June.
So that was really good interms of pushing that out.
And I guess one of the nicethings for Lucas was that one of
(34:25):
the genetic services inAustralia invited him.
They had a Pride Journal Cluband they invited him to share
that work.
So I guess we'll have to waitfor a year or two and see what
happens with that work.
But yeah, I think it's a reallywell.
(34:49):
I think it's a good read tothink about.
What are the issues and how canwe be?
You know, it's about beingclient centred, really, isn't it
?
And about not being tokenallies but actually being real
allies and getting comfortableso that we can be really genuine
(35:14):
with our clients in that space.
Matt Burgess (35:18):
Yeah, I think, yeah, being genuine is such an
important key.
You know, like if we are clientcentred and we're using active
listening, we are able to beauthentic in our dealings, and
you know, that's what it's allabout, that's the lovely thing
about it.
So Lucas was one of yourgenetic counselling master's
(35:41):
students.
Is it important for you as partof the faculty that your
students publish at the end oftheir degree?
Alison McEwen (35:52):
So that's a.
So I think that that's a reallyinteresting question, and I was.
So I've been thinking about thisa lot because at the moment,
students in the Australasianprograms have to complete an
independent research project,and I had a meeting with Kelly
(36:15):
Ormond earlier this morning andwe were talking about the fact
that it's a little bit differentacross the programs in the US,
that some of the programs inNorth America the students might
not complete a completelyindependent research project.
You probably know more aboutthat than me, but I guess I
(36:38):
guess if we are producing, ifstudents are doing all of the
work to produce an independentresearch project, then I think
it is really important that wepublish this work, because
otherwise we're contributing toresearch waste and we're not
being respectful of theparticipants in the studies if
(37:01):
we don't go on to publish thatwork.
So it is important and it'salso really challenging, because
students complete thesedissertations and then they're
very focused on the need to dothe work that's about applying
(37:21):
for jobs and starting new jobs,and we know that that can be
pretty all consuming, that timeof moving from a graduate
program into the workforce, andso we don't always publish
things.
(37:41):
But I think, working withstudents we've published.
Probably well, I haven't gotthe stats but probably four or
five students at least per yearare publishing and a couple more
students are about to submittheir manuscripts.
Matt Burgess (38:01):
So yeah, I think it is important.
I agree.
I like the idea of reducingresearch waste.
Well, I think that that is agreat place to end.
So thank you very much forspending this time with me this
morning, alison, and thank you,I've really enjoyed it.
Alison McEwen (38:21):
Yeah, I've enjoyed it too.
Thanks for creating anenvironment where I can talk
about so many of the things thatI'm interested in and excited
about.
Matt Burgess (38:31):
You're very welcome.
I'll talk to you soon.
Alison McEwen (38:33):
Yeah, see you later.
Bye bye.
Matt Burgess (38:35):
Thanks for listening.
I just wish I had a little bitmore time to talk to Alison
about her new dog, ruff Rosie.
Oh well, maybe next time.
So I'd like to say thank youvery much to Dr Alison McEwen
for being the guest on today'sshow, thank you to Track Jean
(38:55):
for sponsoring this episode,thank you to my producer, omiya,
and thank you to the listenersfor tuning in.
Thank you.
G'day.
My name is Matt Burgess and I'ma genetic counselor, and this
is my podcast, the MystifyingGenetics.
Today, in the studio, I amchatting with genetic counselor
Dr Alison McEwen.
She is a genetic counselor, anacademic and the current
president of the Human GeneticsSociety of Australasia.
(00:22):
We talk about her researchinterests, including the online
education of genetic counselorsand some of her published
articles.
Hello, alison, and welcome tothe Mystifying Genetics.
Alison McEwen (00:36):
I'm Matt.
It's nice to see you after allthese years.
Matt Burgess (00:40):
I know Thank you for coming on.
So I think last time we spokeyou lived in Sydney, but now you
live back in New.
Zealand.
I must admit I absolutely loveNew Zealand.
It did take me quite a while toget there.
I didn't go until I was in my30s, but yeah, I love it.
(01:00):
Whereabouts do you live?
Alison McEwen (01:03):
So I live on the Capiti Coast, which is about 45
minutes north of Wellington andit's on the west coast of the
North Island, so we get fabulous, fabulous sunsets.
So I live in a kind of beachsuburb and we've got enough land
(01:28):
to grow a lot of our vegetables.
We've got chickens and beehivesand, of course, our dog, who
I've been out with this morning.
Matt Burgess (01:38):
So yeah, oh, lovely Is that, rosie.
Alison McEwen (01:42):
Yeah, that's Rosie Yep.
Matt Burgess (01:45):
It's funny because I kind of had this impression
of you living this idyllic lifeon a farm with the animals,
being able to work remotely butthen live this amazing life.
So I'm glad that my idea wasprobably it sounds like that's
how you're living in real life.
Alison McEwen (02:07):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I really value the
opportunity to work remotely inthis way because, you know, our
families are in Aotearoa, newZealand, and our parents aren't
getting any younger.
So it's really important for us, particularly when the pandemic
came, that we were close tothem, to be able to provide
(02:33):
support for parents and for ourchildren who are in their late
20s now, yeah, and I think Imean you know, so I really value
that.
I think you know idyllic lifeis perhaps an overestimation.
There's a lot of work involvedgrowing food and that kind of
(02:55):
thing but I think having thatopportunity to ground myself
absolutely literally in the soiland the earth is it keeps me in
a good place to be able to dothe work that I'm involved in.
Matt Burgess (03:14):
Fantastic, it sounds amazing.
I would love to come and visitand, you know, have a glass of
wine and enjoy ourselves Totallysure.
Now what I'm about to say.
Maybe it's a little bit cheeky,but I feel like the genetic
counselling course that youstudied probably wasn't the best
genetic counselling coursearound, but then you went on and
(03:38):
founded one of the best geneticcounselling course in the world
.
I think how important was itfor you to set up a really sort
of robust and rigorous geneticcounselling course.
Alison McEwen (03:53):
It was incredibly important and I guess I think
you know.
For me, everything, all of thework, comes back to our clients.
It comes back to theindividuals and families with
inherited conditions, andwhatever role a genetic
counsellor goes into whetherit's in a laboratory or in a
(04:17):
research role, in a policy roleor in a clinical role I feel
like everything comes back tothose people who are the end
users of the work that we do.
And so, for me, the heart ofgenetic counselling is around
how we can connect and engagewith people, how we can
(04:40):
communicate with them andsupport them through a moment in
their lives.
And I hope that through theprogram at UTS, we're equipping
students to deliver reallystrongly evidence-based
healthcare with the emphasis oncare.
(05:01):
And I think it's interestingbecause, you know, the training
has evolved so much over theyears and you and I, you know,
have come through that time ofevolution of training in
Australasia and I think it wasreally important that we started
(05:24):
somewhere and that we movedtowards where we wanted to be.
You know you need a foundationor a jumping off point to grow
from.
Matt Burgess (05:37):
Right.
I think one of the things Ireally admire about you is how
important that evidence base isto you.
I see that you conduct research, you put a lot of thought and
effort into it and then youpublish it.
I think that it's reallyimportant to actually have it in
(06:00):
the literature and talk aboutit, so it becomes part of the
culture.
I think that that's somethingthat you do really well.
Alison McEwen (06:09):
Wow, thank you.
Matt Burgess (06:11):
So in founding and I guess an example of that is
when you were founding the UTSGenetic Counseling course, so,
University of Technology Sydney,a few years ago you conducted
some research about the geneticcounseling needs in Australasia
and how to provide a courseonline and just logistics and
(06:34):
what was needed.
Was that a difficult process togo through?
Alison McEwen (06:41):
I guess when I went into that role a few years
ago I spoke at the WorldCongress of Genetic Counseling
and I talked about this conceptof brave spaces.
I guess for a long time ineducation we've thought about
the idea of a safe space forstudents.
There's some literature thatsuggests that actually students
(07:10):
will learn more in a brave space.
A brave space is where we wantour students to have a starting
point and to challengethemselves with ideas or with
their skill development so thatthey are supported to do that.
(07:31):
But also they have to step outof their comfort zone and into a
space where they test whatthey're capable of doing.
I feel like for me, going to UTSto establish the program that
was my brave space.
(07:52):
I stepped right outside mycomfort zone.
I spent a long time with that,the idea that I had to be the
change that I wanted to see inthe profession, and I had the
mantra of fake it till you makeit.
We get those ideas of a dark ora swan gliding along the top of
(08:18):
the water and, of course, underthe water our feet are
furiously paddling and that'swhat it felt like with going to
UTS to establish the disciplineand the program In that time,
when I first got there and itwas just me, I was the team for
six months I had to think aboutwhere do I start and for me
(08:44):
everything comes back tocollaboration and to
communication and to makingthose connections that have
enabled the discipline, the team, the program to develop and the
way it has.
I wanted to bring people fromthe profession on the journey.
(09:07):
I went out and I asked peoplewhat do you think should be in
the training?
It was kind of a looselyco-design process.
It wasn't really research.
It was a whole series ofconversations that we then wrote
about.
From that point, once my headwas around what this was going
(09:33):
to look like, we started to doresearch.
That provides the evidence forthe way that we're teaching and
some of the learning activities.
Matt Burgess (09:45):
Right, I was so glad that you shared your
experience of setting thatcourse up and I guess I never
assumed that it was easy, but Ithink that you did make it look
easy.
So I feel like you were thatswan from an outsider
perspective blinding along, eventhough you were frantically
sort of, you know, working inthe background there.
But I've copied a line from oneof your articles about setting
(10:10):
it up.
I really like it and so, justquoting here equipping students
with open eyes and listeningears may be the single most
important thing we can do toprepare the genetic counseling
workforce of the future, toprovide the best possible care.
And, you know, as an academicqualification at a, you know, a
well respected university, youknow, and something as sort of
(10:32):
modern as genetic counseling.
Sometimes I, you know, I worrythat it's really complicated and
it's hard, and you know it'scomplex.
But you sort of brought it backdown to the real sort of
essence of genetic counseling,you know, open eyes and
listening ears, and I think thatthat's such a good sort of
(10:52):
summary or like a good sort offoundation for your students to
have.
Alison McEwen (10:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think listening is perhapsthe most important thing that we
have to learn to do as geneticcounselors.
Matt Burgess (11:07):
Great.
Another thing that I sort ofwanted to talk to you about and
you know, maybe it was probably,you know, a better thing to do
over a cup of coffee sometime,but I never actually got a
chance to.
So, hey, I'll just ask you onmy podcast.
But I wanted to talk to youabout your PhD and I know when
(11:28):
we were preparing for, you know,this chat, you said no, I've
got many more, much morerelevant things to talk about
than my PhD, so I won't harp onabout it.
But I don't know how or why Ihad this impression, like I
remember you sort of presentingabout your PhD, you know, back
in the day, and talking about it, and I always got the
(11:49):
impression that it was a veryisolated thing.
So you were doing your PhD at auniversity where there wasn't a
discipline of geneticcounseling and I think maybe I
was just daydreaming like, oh,alison, she was by herself, she
was the only genetic counselor.
Like, was that your experienceor did I just make up a whole
story in my mind?
Alison McEwen (12:11):
No, you didn't make up a whole story in your
mind.
I guess my PhD was perhaps thebest accidental thing that ever
happened in my career.
So I was working as a clinicalgenetic counselor and I was
working I mean, my children werekind of late primary school age
(12:32):
at the time and I was workingwith a gynecological oncologist
in a shared clinical environmentand he had been collecting this
cohort of a list, basically, ofwomen who were at increased
risk of ovarian cancer and weput in an application for some
(12:54):
funding from a philanthropicorganization to interview these
women.
And we were successful in thatapplication.
And somebody said to me well,if you're going to do this, you
should do it properly.
You should enroll in researchmasters and get and learn some
research skills so that you canthen take this research forward.
(13:18):
And so I thought, oh well, okaythen.
So I enrolled in the researchmasters, we started to do this
work and we got so much data, somuch rich, wonderful story from
these women that my supervisorssaid to me I think you should
(13:39):
see if let's put in anapplication and convert this to
a PhD.
I said, oh well, okay, and so,yeah.
So my PhD was sitting in healthsciences faculty, at Otago
University, I had a supervisorwho was in Dunedin, where the
(13:59):
university is, and a supervisorwho was at a different
university but in Wellingtonwhere I was.
So I had this really wonderful,full of hard work but wonderful
five years where I was doing aPhD part time.
I was working in a clinicalrole, kind of four days a week,
(14:22):
and so I was really immersed inthis infamilial cancer in two
ways and I just loved thatexperience and the PhD came out
at the end of it.
And then, and that you know, Ithought, well, that will be the
(14:46):
end of it, I'll carry on doingsome clinical work going forward
, I'd already I've always hadthat interest in education and
so I've been involved intraining and certification
guidelines and things inAustralasia.
And and then it was as thougheverything coalesced when UTS
(15:06):
was looking to start a program.
Matt Burgess (15:09):
Wow, it must have.
It sounds like a really busytime for you.
You know, doing all of thatwith school-aged children as
well.
Ah, yes, it was.
Alison McEwen (15:21):
One of those things when you look back and
you go.
How did I do that?
Matt Burgess (15:26):
And because I, like you, know one of the themes
that came out of that.
You were looking at a cohort ofwomen and I think the idea was
that they just get on with it.
You know they'd live with likethis, you know strong family
history or this risk of cancer,but they get on with it.
And I did sort of think about,you know, if it was the opposite
(15:48):
, like if you're looking at agroup of men that were living
with an increased risk, wouldthey just get on with it or
would they sort of make a bigdrama out of it?
Or you know, I think it wasinteresting how, yeah, it was
sort of focusing on the womenand that's what came out of it.
Alison McEwen (16:06):
Yeah, and I think I mean what I explored was
whether that's a cultural way ofdoing things like, whether
that's a way of being that'scommon in New Zealand.
And I suspect that actually,men in New Zealand would mostly
just get on with it as well,that if they explored the fact
(16:31):
that they had an increased risk,that then they would just also
get on with things, and noteverybody.
But that was a really.
It was really striking how manyof the women used that phrase
during their interviews.
You know, yeah, beautiful.
Matt Burgess (16:50):
I just, yeah, I love that about the qualitative
research you know, picking up onphrases and themes and
exploring that.
So yeah, great work.
Another piece of great workthat you've done, oh, it's
something that I hadn't reallysort of come across before, but
it was a philosophy of practice.
(17:11):
And you know, my undergrad isin psychology and I didn't do a
lot of philosophy but I reallysort of do like a philosophical
sort of exploration, I suppose.
So when I found out that therewas this thing called philosophy
of practice and that you andChris wrote a paper about that
(17:33):
in relation to geneticcounseling in Australasia, I
thought, wow, this is amazing.
So can you tell us a little bitmore about what a philosophy of
practice is and how youincluded it into the master's
course?
Alison McEwen (17:48):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Chris Jacobs was the secondperson to join the team at UTS
Genetic Counseling and so weworked very closely for several
years as we developed theprogram, and now Chris has
returned to the UK and isworking in a university in
(18:11):
Surrey and going to beestablishing some training there
, and I expect that she will usethis idea of a philosophy of
practice and bring it into theUK as well.
So it's been common for quite along time for in teaching, for
example, to write a philosophyof teaching practice, and it's
(18:34):
something that universitiesoften will encourage academics
to do to think about the how andthe why of what we're doing and
what values we bring to that,and so we thought it would be
really interesting to getstudents to think about well,
(18:56):
what are all the differentvalues in genetic counseling and
what do those look like inpractice?
And actually, what do I looklike as a genetic counselor,
what's my identity and how do Iwant to practice?
So we're getting at all ofthese different ideas of when I
(19:21):
go out into the workforce, whoam I in that space, and I think
it's interesting.
We have very, reallythought-provoking discussions
with students as they grapplewith these ideas and they often
say, well, it's too early, Ican't write this philosophy of
(19:43):
practice and we talk about.
Well, actually, this is aboutthinking forward, about what are
the values that really that Ibring from my previous
experience as a person in thisworld and how do I want to take
(20:04):
those into this profession.
So it's part of developing ouridentity as a genetic counselor
and thinking about you know, whoare the genetic counsellors
that I really look to asexamples of the way that I want
(20:25):
to be and what do I see in them.
And I think it also givesstudents the opportunity to
really pull apart some of thoseideas that kind of seem to hang
on in genetic counselling, likewhether we can be directive or
(20:48):
non-directive, for example.
And yeah, so it's a.
We just encourage them to.
Well, they have to.
It's an assessment task at theend of their first year To start
to think about who am Ibecoming as a genetic counsellor
and why am I becoming that way.
And then, more recently, theHuman Genetic Society of
(21:14):
Australasia Board of Senses forgenetic counselling has hooked
this up in the reflective essaythat genetic counsellors write
as part of their certificationand asking people to start to
think about you know, why am Idoing things the way that I'm
doing them?
Matt Burgess (21:37):
Have you heard of TrackGene?
Trackgene is a clinical geneticsoftware solution used by over
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Yes, it can manage yourgenetics database, your
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But what it's really good at isdrawing pedigrees.
(21:58):
Pedigrees are highlycustomizable to your clinic and
your needs.
You can draw a simple threegeneration family tree with only
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However, you have the power todraw a multi-generation pedigree
with many different and variedgenetic conditions, with
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(22:20):
it out For a free demonstration, go to TrackGenecom.
That's T-R-A-K-G-E-N-Ecom.
You know, one of the thingsthat I love about genetic
counseling is that we are solucky that we have supervision
and it's really encouraged andkind of mandated.
And you know, like, when Ithink of my own journey when I
(22:44):
finished grad school for geneticcounseling, I did feel ready
and I was confident and I wentout there.
But you know, I know that Ichanged and I evolved and I
developed.
I think that it's really lovelythat maybe the students are
saying, oh, I'm not ready towrite this or I don't know how
to, and it's like, well, that'sokay, you can write it now and
(23:05):
then.
You know that's not set instone, you know you can reflect
on that and come back to it asyou sort of progress in your
career.
Alison McEwen (23:14):
Absolutely.
Matt Burgess (23:16):
So another thing that keeps you busy is that
you're actually the currentpresident of the Human Genetic
Society of Australasia.
You are a genetic counselor.
Obviously we haven't had manygenetic counselors as presidents
, and just wondering how thatexperience has been for you.
Alison McEwen (23:34):
Yeah, so I'm the second genetic counselor to be
the president of the HumanGenetic Society of Australasia.
The first was Mary Ann Youngand she was the president when
our society was maybe around 40years old and now we're 46 years
old this year.
So it's taken us a long time toget genetic counselors into
(24:02):
these positions of, I guess,senior leadership across the
disciplines of human genetics inAustralasia, and I think that
that's probably been similar inEurope and the UK that these
combined societies have.
(24:25):
Perhaps early in there, in thekind of formation and in the
early years of the societies,it's tended to be the scientists
and the medical geneticistswho've taken these roles.
So I felt really excited and Ithink many people did in the
(24:48):
profession when Mary Ann wasasked to be the president, and
what I think we're demonstratingnow is that genetic counselors
you know I think there'll beanother genetic counselor in a
few more years will come intothis role.
So I think we'll take our turnin the kind of cycling through
(25:12):
that that happens in theleadership of these
organizations and I guess whatit means is that that we have an
opportunity to foreground thekey issues for genetic
counselors and so, and at thesame time to think, I guess,
(25:37):
across thinking as a geneticcounselor and the issues that
are in the forefront for us, andwhat does that mean for our
discipline colleagues across thelaboratories and the clinical
geneticists.
So so you're probably aware thatthat the really key issue for
(25:59):
genetic counselors in Australiain particular is is around
funding for genetic counseloractivity, and so we've been
doing a lot of work in thatspace with government to to try
and improve the situation, andif we're still it's a work in
(26:22):
progress.
But if we are able to, you knowthat improved funding for
genetic counseling and counseloractivity will will have a flow
on effect for our colleagues inthe labs and and for the
geneticists.
So all these things areconnected.
(26:42):
But it's been a realopportunity, I think to well for
me to understand how thingswork across the the all the
different disciplines in oursociety and and then think about
how is this all connected?
Yeah, so, and I'm coming to theend of my term the 19th of July
(27:06):
is the AGM and then I'll stepinto that ex officio role and
have an opportunity to, I guess,continue with some of the
projects that have been thatI've been heavily involved in.
But Nemi Berman will come in asthe next president, so we'll be
(27:27):
going into a better sister ledsociety.
Matt Burgess (27:32):
Excellent, oh cool .
Yeah, I really like that ideaof sort of, you know, setting up
a precedent that you know it'sbeneficial for the genetic
counselors but then it alsohelps the other you know,
members of the society, and yeah, I think that's a great way to
sort of go about it.
Now, you mentioned before yourinvolvement with the World
(27:53):
Crongrass of genetic counseling.
I think they have there beentwo, and the third one is just
about to come up, or I thinkthere's been three, because
there was one that was virtualin 2021.
Alison McEwen (28:10):
So I think it's the fourth one is just about to
happen.
Matt Burgess (28:13):
Okay, I know I was lucky enough to go to the first
one and it was my favoriteconference ever.
I absolutely loved it.
I loved every second it was.
It was such an amazingconference.
Has that been your experience?
Have you really enjoyed thisconference?
Alison McEwen (28:32):
Absolutely.
So I went to the second one in2019 and I, you know, I think
that that opportunity to stay ona campus, to eat meals together
, to have conversations in in somany different ways, and for
everybody there to be geneticcounselors from all around the
(28:54):
world and 28 countries, I think,in 2019.
Matt Burgess (29:00):
So imagine how many countries might be
represented in 2023, you know,yeah fantastic and a genetic
counselor that is not too faraway from me here in New Jersey,
new York, is Laura Hershaw andshe hosts a great podcast called
the Beagle is Landed, and Ilike what she sort of suggested
(29:24):
or said at the at one of theseconferences, and she said that
or suggested that our professionof genetic counseling has
entered adolescents, with theaccompanying struggles to
articulate a clear andindividualized identity that
typifies that developmentalstage.
Is that how you see geneticcounseling?
Is that sort of the stage thatwe're in in, especially in
(29:48):
Australasia?
Alison McEwen (29:50):
I think I mean that's I'd forgotten about her
saying that, but I heard hersaying that and that's written
in her article in the Journal ofGenetic Counseling special
issue and and I guessadolescence is really about
identity formation and and insome ways, the idea of a
(30:10):
philosophy of practice and andwhere we're at as a profession
are connected because they'reabout how do we form identities
and you know, I think one of thethings when I was early on in
the program development at UTSwas really thinking about how
(30:31):
how do we think forward into thepotential that exists for
genetic counselors and how do wethink about where genetic
counselors might work if we'renot already working in that
space?
I think, you know, in 2018, whenwe were putting the program
(30:57):
together, we knew that therewere going to that our graduates
were very likely to go intoroles that didn't exist at that
point.
So so how do we prepare peopleto take on those, the challenges
of new roles, and and whatconnects us as genetic
(31:19):
counselors, and and so you knowit is a messy sort of a time and
I guess we're probably still inthat time, in that we're seeing
genetic counselors moving intothese mainstream spaces and
thinking about what does it meanto be a genetic counselor in a
(31:39):
neurology team?
What's my role, how do I,what's my identity, what do I
bring to this team and how do Icommunicate the value that I
bring?
So to do that, we need to havea robust idea of ourselves as as
a profession.
I think so.
So that's a very long way ofsaying that.
(32:02):
I agree with what Laura said.
Matt Burgess (32:06):
Yeah, I think, practicing in Australia and then
coming to the United States andand seeing how things are done
over here and sort of comparingand contrasting, I would say,
you know, if we're using thisanalogy, maybe our American or
North American colleagues areour older sort of brothers and
sisters and maybe we're sort ofearly adolescents, but it's
(32:29):
exciting to kind of see how it'sevolving and changing and and
what that means for Australasia.
And one of your recentpublications it was only just
recently published was anarticle that you wrote with a
genetic counseling master'sstudent, so it's called
(32:51):
Invisibility of LGBTQIA PlusPeople and Relationships in
Healthcare a scoping review withLucas Mitchell and Chris Jacobs
.
It just seems like such animportant paper for our time now
.
How has that sort of beenreceived?
Alison McEwen (33:11):
So I guess I mean it's funny with papers, isn't
it?
Because you do, and I mean thatpaper took a long time to come
together.
The scoping review was huge Ithink 77 articles.
So Lucas started that duringhis master's and for his
(33:32):
dissertation he lookedspecifically at the articles
about transgender people andthen we went on with the rest of
the data that he'd collected tothink about the whole review of
visibility or invisibility ofqueer people in healthcare and
(34:01):
because there wasn't very muchin genetic counseling at the
time.
So in a really nice bit oftiming that paper was published
during Pride Month in June.
So that was really good interms of pushing that out.
And I guess one of the nicethings for Lucas was that one of
(34:25):
the genetic services inAustralia invited him.
They had a Pride Journal Cluband they invited him to share
that work.
So I guess we'll have to waitfor a year or two and see what
happens with that work.
But yeah, I think it's a reallywell.
(34:49):
I think it's a good read tothink about.
What are the issues and how canwe be?
You know, it's about beingclient centred, really, isn't it
?
And about not being tokenallies but actually being real
allies and getting comfortableso that we can be really genuine
(35:14):
with our clients in that space.
Matt Burgess (35:18):
Yeah, I think, yeah, being genuine is such an
important key.
You know, like if we are clientcentred and we're using active
listening, we are able to beauthentic in our dealings, and
you know, that's what it's allabout, that's the lovely thing
about it.
So Lucas was one of yourgenetic counselling master's
(35:41):
students.
Is it important for you as partof the faculty that your
students publish at the end oftheir degree?
Alison McEwen (35:52):
So that's a.
So I think that that's a reallyinteresting question, and I was.
So I've been thinking about thisa lot because at the moment,
students in the Australasianprograms have to complete an
independent research project,and I had a meeting with Kelly
(36:15):
Ormond earlier this morning andwe were talking about the fact
that it's a little bit differentacross the programs in the US,
that some of the programs inNorth America the students might
not complete a completelyindependent research project.
You probably know more aboutthat than me, but I guess I
(36:38):
guess if we are producing, ifstudents are doing all of the
work to produce an independentresearch project, then I think
it is really important that wepublish this work, because
otherwise we're contributing toresearch waste and we're not
being respectful of theparticipants in the studies if
(37:01):
we don't go on to publish thatwork.
So it is important and it'salso really challenging, because
students complete thesedissertations and then they're
very focused on the need to dothe work that's about applying
(37:21):
for jobs and starting new jobs,and we know that that can be
pretty all consuming, that timeof moving from a graduate
program into the workforce, andso we don't always publish
things.
(37:41):
But I think, working withstudents we've published.
Probably well, I haven't gotthe stats but probably four or
five students at least per yearare publishing and a couple more
students are about to submittheir manuscripts.
Matt Burgess (38:01):
So yeah, I think it is important.
I agree.
I like the idea of reducingresearch waste.
Well, I think that that is agreat place to end.
So thank you very much forspending this time with me this
morning, alison, and thank you,I've really enjoyed it.
Alison McEwen (38:21):
Yeah, I've enjoyed it too.
Thanks for creating anenvironment where I can talk
about so many of the things thatI'm interested in and excited
about.
Matt Burgess (38:31):
You're very welcome.
I'll talk to you soon.
Alison McEwen (38:33):
Yeah, see you later.
Bye bye.
Matt Burgess (38:35):
Thanks for listening.
I just wish I had a little bitmore time to talk to Alison
about her new dog, ruff Rosie.
Oh well, maybe next time.
So I'd like to say thank youvery much to Dr Alison McEwen
for being the guest on today'sshow, thank you to Track Jean
(38:55):
for sponsoring this episode,thank you to my producer, omiya,
and thank you to the listenersfor tuning in.
Thank you.
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