S7E18 New Jersey Flawed Permitting

In this week’s episode we talk with John Petrolino about the flawed permitting system in New Jersey that is allowing discrimination to occur against firearm owners. Today’s episode is also brought to you by the following: This episode is brought to you by the ConcealedCarry.com firearm instructor network. ConcealedCarry.com is always looking for quality firearm…

The post S7E18 New Jersey Flawed Permitting first appeared on The Firearm Trainer Podcast.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome season 7 episode 18, the farm trainer
podcast published on 07/02/2024.
Halfway through the year already. Time is flying.
This episode will be talking about John Pet
about how New Jersey permit system is Discriminating
against,
certain firearm owners.
If you like a podcast goes 5 star

(00:20):
review on your favorite podcast app and share
it with a friend. This episode definitely would
be 1 of those that you'll wanna share.
Because if it doesn't, get you a little
bit bothered that the government discriminating against people,
after listening this, I'm not sure what will.
Get you upset.
But buckle up for another
riveting episode of the farm Trainer podcast.

(00:43):
Remember, this episode also brought to you by
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(01:03):
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(01:24):
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this podcast support the industry. The second amendment
And most importantly, every farm struck America dedicate
time and energy and ain't gun owners more
knowledgeable.
Today we're joined by. John Pet from bearing
arms and Penn patriot.
Welcome, John. Thanks for coming on the podcast

(01:46):
again.
Hi, Rob. Thank you for having me. I
feel like it's been a very long time.
It has been a very long time, and
my apologies for not I have you on
sooner, but I think today's topics it's kinda
makes up for all that stuff because if
people aren't just a little bit frustrated with
our government after hearing,
our or today's topic, I I don't know

(02:07):
what we'll get your dan in an uproar
to say the least because, this is some...
This kind of stuff shouldn't be going on
in in the in the 20 first century.
Let's put it simply. But, hey, John. Before
we jump into our topic of the day
Why don't you give our listeners a little
bit in your background.
In case I missed the other episode that,

(02:27):
that your
episodes that you've been on this is not
your... Your second time and you've been on
several times support just not recently in the
last year.
Yeah. Hi. So I'm john Pet.
A freelance
writer
and I cover second amendment issues, the writing
thing and the second amendment advocacy and activism
is kind of my side hustle, for my

(02:49):
main occupation. I'm actually a merchant marine.
And I started
I started putting pen to paper with on
second amendment issues back in
20 15
and started adding, you know, articles...
You know, to my by line, and Ama
land was so gracious to to pick me

(03:10):
up way back then, and I I still
write for them as well,
and from, like, 20 15 to 20 20,
I stayed the course, and I'd put out
a couple of articles here and there.
Know, whenever I had something to report on,
nothing too too crazy.
20 20 rolled around, I... Released a book

(03:30):
called decoding firearms,
and that's the subtitle that that is an
easy to read guide on general
gun safety and use, and it's a 1
on 1 level, Mh. Guide book for people
to to get into, that are new to
firearms
or,
wanna brush up on firearms or perhaps want
to

(03:51):
convey information to others on firearms. So it's
a
you know, it's 266
pages, and
it's pretty... I'm not gonna say it's a,
but it's,
It's it's got a lot of information.
Very very good book. You we had you
on talking talking about that before and a
lot of people that have purchased it.

(04:13):
Because it's got... It covers
all your all the modern firearms, which
not everybody might own, and it gives a
little bit background on what they are, so
we understand what an Ar is and what
a semi automatic is and those types of
things.
Absolutely. So look, a thank you. And 20
20 is when things like really exploded. So

(04:35):
when I was previously writing from 20 15
to 20 20.
You know, I was just writing for for
credit, You know, I wasn't getting paid or
anything like that. But 20 20, you know,
Am and approached me and asked me to
do some work for them. And
this is, okay. They brought me on, and
and, you know, now I'd be, you know,
drawing a a check from them when, you

(04:56):
know, I give them work.
And I'd say that was 20 20, and
then by by the winner of 20 21
early. So it was probably by March. To
20 21,
bearing arms had done the same and Cam
edwards had asked me to come on over
and, you know, start to you know, do
we work there more officially

(05:18):
instead of just for for a buy? Because
I had started somebody work to him and
here we are. Several several years later, and
now I write primarily, I I put a
lot of my work out. I'm, bearing arms
and still at Ammo land, but I also
will, you know, write for the truth about
guns as well as
shooting news weekly,

(05:39):
and those are the sites that I freelance
for.
And then, I'll also do some work for
news 2 a dot com. That's a website
that everybody should check out. They're up and
coming. They're just about just about over a
year old now news 2 a dot com,
and they they do a... I wanted to
say a heavy focus on New Jersey, but

(05:59):
they cover all issues across the country.
And then I also... I'll send some work
over to the armed lifestyle
as well when I when I have time.
So... That's kinda who I am and what
I've been up to, and, you know, we're
sitting here probably
in the neighborhood of maybe 800 articles now
under my belt.

(06:20):
Since I've been serious about writing.
So you've you you've grown out of the
amateur phase. Now you're into the professional phase.
That's great.
Yeah. I guess so. And it's it's interesting
because a lot of these...
The stories here, they're all Chris Cross and
they coincide.
And, you know, as you know, training is

(06:41):
where, you know, I was really focused.
Many, many years ago, and then, you know,
that's the direction that I thought my writing
was going. And now I I got sucked
right into this litigation legislation stuff, you know,
on an advocacy end, and the, I did
actually manage to... I joined the, the national
and the New Jersey society,

(07:02):
a professional journalist, which, you know, all all
you gotta do to join is send them
a check. Right? No big deal.
But what I was able to do was
get credential in New Jersey. So I have
my New Jersey press credentials, which is actually
very important.
Because you you can't sit in on, like,
any of the governor's,
you know, press events and if anything official,

(07:24):
they wanna see you have press credentials
And I had to I had to maybe
claw a little bit to to get those,
but I was able to get them and,
you know, I It was a matter of
finding work that wasn't biased,
you know, to put out there to show
the the society that I, you know, do...
I am in fact, a journalist

(07:44):
it's not all just opinion and fire and
Brim stone, you know. And
that's what brings us to today actually is,
you know, work that is hard news, and
it's
it's journalism. I don't know if you wanted
to segue into that or not, Rob? Yeah.
Well, It's that's a good good point we'll
go in we'll segment
segue right into it because I think if

(08:05):
our listeners longtime listeners,
remember, we had a story about 18 months
ago, on the,
constitutional Carrie here in Ohio, and who it
really benefited
to try to, go on combat and let
people know the constitutional carriers and as scary
s the news media,

(08:26):
likes to make it out to be or
maybe more important label politicians like, like it
out, It actually serves
the lower income
population because they're the ones that are
highest risk, and at the same time the
ones that have the
least amount of money build to go along,
get training or go along in practice, go
along, do things like that. They've got a

(08:46):
lot of other worries to have. And I
was glad to be able to bring that
story to everybody because I think it's important
to realize that not everybody
has a lot of disposable income and we've
gotta be as far as firearms go, you
know, the 2 a. Second amendment is for
everybody. And, you know, whether you're low income,
high income, middle income,
we should all be able to do it.

(09:07):
And that's 1 of the things that I
want to rally against the political
wins they try to go along and make
it difficult for people to practice their their
they're rights for it. So with that segue
John, Why don't you
tell us what's going on New Jersey that's
got my danger up on this story.

(09:28):
Well, it's gonna be a cliff hanger because
we have to turn back the clock to
2 years ago in a couple of days
when...
We had the New York State Rifle Pistol
Association versus Brewing decision.
And, I think you've had guests on to
talk about this Specifically in New Jersey. I
think you had Tony on to talk about
training and Carrie,

(09:49):
Tony Simon.
And,
up until that point, there was no carry
in New Jersey. So
the,
ability to get a permit in in the
garden state
is just a little bit under 2 years
old, I'll say, because by the time that
everything got settled. I'd say the maybe the

(10:11):
first few permits are probably getting issued in
August of 20 22.
So this is all new. Mh.
New Jersey, much like New York,
California
tried,
Massachusetts is doing at California, I think is
actively doing it as well.
And a bunch of other areas, Maryland,

(10:31):
oil, warn came forward with these B response
laws. So
now we're... You know, the lawmakers were trying
to figure out ways to circumvent
the the current laws to make it even
more difficult
on carriers. Right. So everybody's familiar with that.
So that was going on, New Jersey had

(10:52):
a hiss fit.
And in the wake of all of these
Hiss fits.
You had you know, the New Jersey state
police had
saying, you know, they expected 200000
permits, like, in the first, you know, couple
months or whatever, and
he was on the record saying that, you
know, he reached out to all the jurisdictions

(11:13):
saying to be a you know, vigilant for
extra gun violence
because now there's gonna be civilian carriers. And,
of course, what do we,
we find out we
fast forward to this year,
and
a couple of weeks before
march fourteenth date that I'm gonna give you

(11:34):
here, the the governor governor Phil Murphy, which
everybody keep your eyes open. This guy's gonna
try to become president 1 day. You don't
want them.
Governor Murphy was loud how
so called gun violence. I'm doing air quotes
here,
was lowest...
Lowest that it's been in
in a really long time, not just years

(11:55):
like, almost like a day... Like, decades, the
rate of gun violence
has plummeted and
you know, was talking about all these efforts.
Well, what what do we know In the
years that he was showing the drop in
violence, which would have been,
primarily was 20 23, but a little bit
in 20 22.

(12:16):
What what correlates with that was the civilian
carriers
so there's some irony there,
and we know the truth behind all of
that.
Part of
all of the b response initiatives
was the attorney general put together something that's
called the permit to carry dashboard. So

(12:38):
on 03/14/2024,
so this just going back a few months
now
is when they they put out this dashboard
and the dashboard had all this data,
and I don't know what they were thinking.
I don't know why they put this dashboard
out because all its done is serve
journalists
and citizen journalists

(12:59):
in really beneficial ways because the information is
that we're pulling out of there. It was
very embarrassing for
for the state,
and so
the first thing that
is important to understand about the Jersey law

(13:20):
is
we still have a subjective standard on the
books
for you to get a permit to carry
or a pistol purchasers permit,
or a firearms Id card.
And this clause in the law
says that the issuing authority could hold the

(13:40):
issuance to any person where the issuance would
not be in the interest of the public
health, safety or welfare
because the person is found to be lacking
the essential character
of temperament
necessary to be entrusted
with a firearm, and that's 2 c 58
dash 3C5
That's pretty vague. I would say.

(14:02):
Right. And I had somebody actually asked me,
well, what does that mean? I'm like, well
exactly, it's incredibly vague. So...
This is not an objective def def standard.
Right? So if we look at at the
Brewing decision, it's very explicit. It says,
that these permitting schemes, you know, if they
are,
you know,

(14:22):
presumed to be
constitutional
they can only contain arrow
objective and definite standards, you know, for the
license official. So what is the... Narrow standard
there. Well, there is no narrow standard with
this public health safety welfare,
standards of the the first bit of data
that I uncovered was

(14:43):
that
the
the majority, so more than half of the
denials in the state. The which at the
time when I first started looking into oldest
this, it was, like, maybe 33000
permits. I think now we're up to, like,
35,
But the data that was available back then
in March,
was a, you know, 33000.

(15:04):
There was, like, a little over 200,
and changed denials, which isn't that bad, but,
you know, who's gonna apply for permit
that isn't gonna be you know, qualified to
get 1. You... Were supposed to already have
a
firearms Id card. So if you have a
firearms Id card in theory,
you should be good to go to get

(15:25):
your permit to carry because the requirements pretty
exactly. Yeah. Yeah. The requirements are exactly the
same but the exception of getting, like, the
the training and, you know, some of the
extra permit carry stuff. Right? But stat,
there's nothing really too crazy there.
So we were finding that more than 50
percent of the denials were under this public

(15:48):
health safety welfare standard.
What I did not find in that dashboard
though was I couldn't find the breakdown
on on the races, and a lot of
other people couldn't find it either. So we
were kind of scratching our heads here.
So I put out what's called an open
public records act request, which is basically

(16:10):
freedom to of information act request for New
Jersey.
And I... You know, I addressed it to
the attorney General's office
Matthew Pla.
And then they returned to me. It's kinda
funny. They returned to me,
instructions on how to access the data that
I was looking for. And I, I'm gonna

(16:32):
be honest with you, you know, I was
in the dashboard. I find it hard to
believe that I with wasn't able to navigate.
I was in and added the whole thing.
So
I'm not saying they added the data, but
it looks like they added the data after
my request wasn't
and I was able to look into
the denials based, you know, based on race,

(16:53):
which
I think is a very important thing because
in in New Jersey,
if you're looking at the
application,
rates.
And we're just gonna look at, you know,
you know, black and white,
not not everyone else because there's some
outliers with the Latino

(17:14):
population that I found kinda interesting. I gotta
look into that more
but with the black and white, if you
look at the the rates of who's been
applying. So the the black
population,
might be
underrepresented in in New Jersey. So
meaning
that there's, like, an 11.6

(17:36):
percent
of all of the applications for permits, were
were black applicants. Right?
Where whereas the New Jersey black population is
13.1
percent. Right? Mh.
Okay. So they're under underrepresented, but not by
a lot. So this isn't telling you the
story that
the African American

(17:58):
people don't want anything to do with firearms.
That's actually
in my opinion remarkable, and it's
a statistical anomaly to the more anti side
because
that information probably
scares the heck out of them because it's
not the narrative that they preach or they've
been preaching for years. Right? So right off

(18:18):
the top, you know, you're getting this information
here.
But what do I find?
When I start looking through
the
the the the denials, you've got
more than double
the the black
population or the black applicants
are being denied more than at a rate

(18:40):
more than doubled than whites. So,
like, that's crazy. Right? It's
it's it's, like, 200 and somewhat odd percent.
Let me see here. Since they're denied.
I think it was actually... 2 and a
half times is what I had found. Right?
Okay. So then you have people say, well,

(19:00):
if you look at the after an American
community, there's more
incarceration, there's more criminal history. And I'm like,
yeah... Okay Fine. You know, when we could
talk about that, freaking on another day in
another place in another time about why that
might be and what what the problems are
there. Right?
And that's also not gonna look good for
our government either

(19:21):
in my opinion.
But if you go when you look at...
Just the denials that were the subjective
standard. Right? The 2 c 58 dash 3C5I
found
the blacks to be denied
2.3
times more than whites.

(19:41):
So
this is, again, a police chief for, you
know, issuing authority
that's basically not giving somebody a permit
it could be because they don't like them.
Or whatever their reason is, they're saying it's
a public health and safety risk
And what I want the listeners to understand

(20:03):
is there's been
plenty of people
that have currently or had or have
firearms
identification cards, which
allows you to purchase
long guns in the state of New Jersey
and people who had formerly gotten
pistol purchase permits because you need a pistol

(20:24):
purchase permit for every handgun
that you purchase. Right? So these are people
that are gun owners that are trying to
get their permits to carry
that have valid firearms paperwork
And now they're getting turned away
under this subjective standard for a permit to
carry. So it's, like, a lot of the

(20:44):
same. You know, it's just
these authorities trying to play the same games
that were being played,
free brewing, but now they're saying, you know,
it's a public health safety welfare thing. Well,
and the thing... That gets me.
It's subjective, they're not pointing to somebody's
conviction saying that, you know, you're a felony

(21:05):
you can't be in possession you know, we
can't give you 1 because you're, you know,
you've you got domestic balance, any of the
ones that normally
preclude
buyer purchasing.
Which, of course, with the Ford card, they...
You know, that would preclude them for that
too. But but they've got firearms,
they wanna legally carry them, and they're still
being turned down. And the 1 thing as

(21:26):
you're describing this that really
just bog my mind,
is anybody who's been watching the firearm industry,
the training industry, you know, instructors out there.
I'm sure are are gonna agree with this
the 2 groups that we're seeing more of
more interest
in our minorities
and women, females.

(21:46):
So female minorities eat even more.
And that's where, you know,
part of the reason for that is is
they realized they constitutional rights for it. And
the need for them to build able take
their own security in their own hands. And
what you're describing to me is
a...
Bureaucracy
that is, you know, putting people at at

(22:08):
jeopardy because they wanna have these arbitrary, you
know, we just don't like you versus pointing
to something that's con create like you've been
convicted of a felony for doing that, and
that's
very troubling in my mind.
Well, and that's the thing. In New Jersey,
it it's it... It's... It's a felony if
you do get caught
with unlawful possession of any firearms. So

(22:30):
And
people who are listening can correct me if
I'm wrong, and and you do too, Rob.
But, like, if you take a... 8, like
California, and I know at least in the
past, I don't know if it's still true
today.
But if you got caught with unlawful possession
of a firearm because you were carrying 1
concealed without a permit.

(22:51):
In California, your first in fraction was... It's
actually a mis.
So it's almost like
California throws you a mu again
where it's, like, you've got your permit until
you actually get caught, you know, if you
think about it. I'm not suggesting people do
that,
I'm not advocating that you don't get a

(23:11):
permit to carry.
Laura am I saying that's the letter of
the law what I'm saying is in New
Jersey,
you're looking at 3 to 5 minimum mandatory
on any gun charge, which it's completely draco
and over the top.
And then who's this going to affect the
most
in in our society

(23:33):
of people that are...
Unable to or haven't gotten permits.
These are gonna be the same folks that
aren't gonna be able to afford
proper legal
representation. So
is that gonna be our minority
population? Maybe maybe not, know, we'd have to
look at all the soc economics.

(23:54):
But the way it usually points is these
are neighborhoods and these are communities,
you that are definitely
not being taken care of, which I would
say by society, You know, yeah. I don't
think New jersey, he's done
our back black population any favors going back
to the sixties.
And and, you know, if people wanna challenge

(24:16):
me on that fine, but
you know, there's a long history here going
back with our firearms paperwork
that
in every
jurisdiction that had to do it keeping. I'm
doing quotes again here, those people
from having firearms, and that's no different today.

(24:37):
And 1 of the things that, you know,
you kinda struck a cord talking about how,
you know, these are the subjective standards that
we don't know and It's not like it's
a domestic abuser. It's, you know, it it
is really bad. And there's 1 case, and,
I'm I'm going to report on it eventually.
I just haven't yet. I'm just waiting,

(24:57):
a suitable time for the individual, but there's
a fellow. He's a Latino guy.
And he applied for his permit to carry.
And this is a guy that was a...
He's the got owner.
Owns guns has firearms Id card,
for all intents and purposes, this is a,
you know, a law abiding citizen.

(25:19):
And when he applied for his permit to
carry, they denied him,
because he had a bad driving record. Now
there was nothing on his driving record
that was criminal or
overly reckless, but he had a bad driving
record. There was... But there was nothing there
that was, like I said, it was all
civil penalties.

(25:40):
And they denied him.
And then when he applied a second time
for his permits to carry,
with a little bit of legal help, and
now wasn't
representation that I would have brought to the
table, but that's neither here and nor there.
He still got denied, and this is after,
you know, alleged

(26:01):
conversations happened with the chief of police or
whatever, and then he also challenged the officer
that was
trying to issue the... Or not issued the
paperwork? I guess we should say and saying,
where does it say that I need to
have a clean driving record,
you know, to get a permit to carry.
And the guy, I've got the emails. So
this is gonna be really

(26:22):
embarrassing for this police department
when I published this article because I've got
all of it.
The guy was telling this guy that he
needs to get his record, his driving record
ex ex
before he would issue him a permit to
carry
And if you know that the guy has
the bed driving record,

(26:43):
does it matter if it's ex
or not you you know what I'm saying
if it's not a
like, who cares.
You still know that he has the bad
driving record, So if it's a public health
safety welfare standard issue
without an ex experiment, what makes it not
1 with an ex.
If to know. Right? And I'm just thinking

(27:04):
of man punch isn't like going down, you
know, the courthouse and paying a, you know,
10 dollar fee to have somebody
you know, wipe out your record. I mean,
there's legal,
you know, fees that you're gonna have to
be paying. You know, I would think at
least a thousand if not a couple thousand
to have your records sponge, which then again,
as I was saying before, it just

(27:25):
racks up the bill for these
vulnerable
populations,
you know, why... You know, how they can't
get, you know, or how they can't exercise
their constitutional rights.
Properly, and, you know, they're not pre preclude
by any other law besides somebody going along
saying, I don't I don't like, you know,
your driving record. I don't like how you
look. I don't like, you know, all these

(27:46):
things that if it was...
If they were doing it for any other
reason,
They'll probably be... They'll probably be protest in
the streets. But since it's still carry.
You know, if they went along and said
somebody had a bad driving record, and you
couldn't,
you know,
you couldn't go to school. You, you know,
something like that, You know, people but, like,
how does how do those do 2 things

(28:07):
relate or going along and saying, you know,
you can't go... You can't drive here because
you've got a bad record. And it's like,
wait a minute I paid my fine. I've
got my driver's license. There's no reason to
preclude me from driving on any public street
I want to. Same thing when it comes
to exercising your second amendment rights to be
able to go along and, you know, be
able to protect yourself.

(28:27):
Oh, yeah. And this next thing that I'm
gonna say, it doesn't... With... We're gonna say,
it doesn't matter. Right? So
you and I, and I'm not gonna put
words in your mouth, but I'm gonna take
a stab at it. Okay?
And I'm gonna put you in the same
cloth that I'm on.
And if somebody came to you for training

(28:48):
for a concealed carry permit or whatever,
I'm gonna guess that you don't care why
they want a permit to carry
on a... I'm not gonna train you level.
Right? You. Somebody wants to defend themselves.
Unless there's something that's, like, blatantly
off, like,

(29:09):
you wanna get your permit to carry.
I think that's awesome. Let's help you... You
know, let's help you make that happen. Right?
Yeah.
Unless you get... Unless you give me a
reason to go along and say, hey, you
know, as soon as I get my permit,
I'm gonna go along and, you know, get
even with this person, which is like, no.
That's not what to can concealed carry permits
for.
You know, though that's, you know, really my

(29:31):
exception. You know, I don't care what gender
you are, Don't care you what race you
are. I don't care what religion. You you
believe in.
Just as long as you're a good outstanding
citizen wanna be able to exercise or second
it rights. That's not my criteria.
So the guy, the reason why he wanted
his permit carry. And again, it doesn't matter.

(29:53):
It doesn't matter it never mattered mattered and
then post brewing. It certainly doesn't matter why.
But the reason he wanted his permit to
carry
was for for work purposes because he was
working for a company
with with an armored car, and he was
a guard. He was he was being held
back from being able to get a a

(30:14):
promotion at his job.
As as an armed security guard in this
armored car. No whether or not he was
driving. I don't know No. I don't... I
doubt he'd be driving because his drafting record
was pretty bad. But, you know, still, this
was an individual that was seeking employment, and
that's why he wanted his permit to carry.
And,

(30:35):
you know, I just think it's crazy
that he went through all this Now he
he did say he was able to eventually
get his permit
through a state police barracks.
And he said he's probably gonna be able
to get his
non restricted permit because he got a restricted
permit for work only.

(30:56):
He should be able to get a non
restricted permit in a couple of months or
whatever.
So we're not really
gonna jeopardize
that process from the guy. Okay. As long
as the driving... Alright. I'm sure right.
You. Can't eat any can't get any Jay
walking tickets because I would definitely
exactly. That he's a, public safety hazard, you

(31:16):
know, Jay walker. What when the details of
the story do finally break out though, it's
gonna be like egg on their face big
time. So
some of the other things that I uncovered
here. So we've got that subjective standard
then we've got the black denial rate, and
then part of that black denial re is

(31:37):
also
subjective. Right? And it's doubled that of whites.
Excessive wait times was another thing that I
uncovered
on this dashboard where you had
And this 1, I had to put in
a, an, Oprah to get the data, so
they sent me the data. The attorney General's
office did make good on it. They sent

(31:57):
me the information. So I could... And it's
out there. I share it. You could look
at the data yourself and if you hunt
down these articles, you know, I've got it
on a on a Google drive so you
can go and look at this stuff. I
share it all with everyone. Right? So Mh.
There's no smoke and mirrors here.
A pre brewing

(32:17):
wait time. So now this dashboard only goes
back to like, 20 19.
When granted that it's whatever data they had
available. Right?
Then when the attorney general said he wants
people to collect this data than they had
to. Right?
But a pre brew impairment, there was a
guy that waited over a thousand days

(32:38):
to get issued as permit. So
Not only was it, like he applied in
20 19.
It wasn't until something like 6 or 9
months after the Ruined decision that they actually
issued his permit.
So that that wasn't really that long was
it?
Yeah. Right.
Over a thousand taste. Diesel pete's.

(32:59):
Yep. And so the pandemic was about a
thousand days.
Exactly it's just at that that is
Yeah. Unbelievable.
I know in Ohio. We get worked up
when it gets anywhere close to 45 days.
For it and to go a thousand days.
That's just
that's that's
insanity.
And it takes and takes bureaucracy that longer.

(33:21):
To go along and and,
allow you to exercise your customers. Right? Do
the right thing. Right? Mh. And the post
brewing permit
the winning weight was around 500 days.
So this is after the brilliant decision, and
even says, you know, excessive weights are un
unconscious
institutional,
500 days for this guy.

(33:43):
And and and there's a statue in New
Jersey,
where... And it's a wee word. And and
the the reason that I say that is
because
it says that there's a hundred and 20
day
limit to issue the permit,
but that's a hundred and 20 days
after the issuing authority declares
the

(34:04):
application complete.
So if it's just sitting on the desk
and the, you know, it's now it's in
the computers. It's in the ether, but you
know, we'll just say here, it's sitting on
his desk. He can claim it's not complete
or whatever for as long as he wants.
Because if you don't look at at. You
can't declare it complete. Right?

(34:24):
So it kinda gets them off the hook
and indefinitely,
you know,
But let's say, a hundred and 20 days
is something we're gonna stick to. Right?
About 10 percent of the
the permit
applications
were a hundred and 20 days or over

(34:45):
for issuance or denial.
And then about 10 percent of the permit
decisions were
0 to 9 days,
And then I'd say the average wait time
was somewhere around 50
something days, like, 54 days, I think.
Was the average,
which even been 50 days

(35:08):
in my opinion is way excessive.
The reason why I put... Picked the 0
to 9 days
for that range when I was looking at
the ranges to kinda
compartment
these time frames
was because I felt that
a 9 day wait to get your permit

(35:29):
to carry
is about as much as I think anyone
should have to endure. Now I think it
should be instant. It's an instant system. There's
no reason
It's all computers. Nobody Nobody's got set dare
to go through the record Right. To go
alone and find something. It's all been computerized.
Yep. So...
But if we're gonna just play politics here,

(35:51):
I... You know, if you told me that
9 days is the most anyone's gonna have
to wait. I mean, I think that would
keep us sat for a couple of decades.
Yeah. You know,
before challenging something like that. But
It's the 50 days, the hundred and 20
days. You know, when I applied,
I applied

(36:13):
I think it was in September,
and I didn't get issued until January,
and and the real kicker to all of
this
and this is something that I haven't really
publicly spoke about, but
1 of the judges
the judge that was supposed to be issuing
my permit to carry when it was in

(36:34):
their
their possession, because the the permit judges changed
few times in my county where I live.
They
cycled them out a couple times
judges aren't involved anymore, So this was, like,
the old
system
in the in the in the brewing response,

(36:55):
you know, bill that got passed,
judges aren't involved anymore, So it's great, and
it's computerized so it's even better. Right?
But
the judge that was supposed to be issuing
me my permit
actually
emailed me,
asking me about doing permit to carry training

(37:16):
for them and their spouse
because they got my name off of 1
of the websites. It's and it's... Of course,
it's in the same county that they're in,
and...
You know, it never went anywhere, and I
don't think it went anywhere because the judge
found out the legislative
intent was that

(37:36):
judges weren't can even I think need to
get permits, I think. I don't think they
had to do training.
I don't think they need permits to carry.
I think they wrote themselves out of the
law. Completely.
But, yeah, that's the goal that we're dealing
with in New Jersey is this
the judge that. And and then that judge
ended up not even issuing me my permit.

(37:57):
The judge changed. So
it was from September and till... Like I
said, January. Right around shot show. And it
was right before shot show
or
during shot show, It might have been during
shot show
that I realized
because they gave me the permit. I think
I got it right before shot and then

(38:19):
I laughed. Right.
I realized
that they issued me the permit
with my wrong birth on it. So I
needed them to rei me the permit again.
Yeah. Which actually went smoother than you would
have thought it you would, like, the people
in my town were great and the

(38:39):
the the judge and the prosecutor
just
you know, fast lined it and took care
of it like they were supposed to,
but they still screwed it up. They put
the real birthday. I'm gotta say they did
it on purpose. I mean, Everything was typed?
Like, why the heck would they give me
the wrong date? You know? Did they transpose
it or something simple like that or did
they make, you know? At December your birthday

(39:02):
went it was really, like May, so the
numbers weren't even... It was, like, off... It
was off by a couple of days.
So who knows. Right? Okay. Yeah. That's... But
these are
these are the issues that I uncovered. Now
every single time that I've raised an issue,
and I've uncovered something new, whether it's the
subjective standards, whether it's to wait times, and

(39:24):
then
the big thing here is this racial disparity,
and I'm not gonna stop banging this drum
for a very long time
until somebody listens to me about this.
Every single time I've reached out to the
attorney general
Matthew Pla office to ask them for comment.

(39:45):
And every time
they write back basically saying, we declined to
comment or the office declines to comment. Right?
And when I say that I write the
attorney general,
I'm writing his press office. Right. That's who
you would write.
When you're looking for a comment for something,
you know, as a journalist,

(40:06):
but I'm also
sending it to the attorney general's
actual email address.
So the attorney general and his press people
are both getting all of these emails.
And none of them are getting bounced back
on deliverable.
So I know he's getting them. And I
know it his email addresses from former open
public Record Act requests that I had done.

(40:29):
Right? Mh.
So they don't want to take ownership of
any of this,
and they know it's happening
underneath their leadership.
And then 1 of the other things
that I don't think you and I talked
about,
that's kinda like, the next step after all
of this. So I waited,

(40:50):
what I would consider a suitable time. Let's
say, like, a month. Right?
And
from the time that I basically
will stay
notified the attorney general by asking them for
comment. Right? Because
you're letting them know there's a problem there
while you're asking.
Right.

(41:11):
I put out a more open public records
requests. Right?
And
I saw in 2 different requests 2 different
times.
Guidance
on
whether or not the attorney general has sent
out guidance
on excessive wait times and delays and the

(41:32):
hundred and 20 day time limit,
and that was 1
request. And the other request was if the
attorney general has sent out any guidance
on dealing with racial disparity. Right? And these
2 and a half time, permit denials,
difference between blacks and whites.

(41:53):
So I send out these open public records
requests,
and they both came back denied, but they
weren't really denied because, like, if you get
a denial They're usually pretty angry and they,
you know, send you a whole bunch of
legal Mum jumbo telling you. You're not entitled
to the information. Mh.
They were denied because
as they said, you know, records custodian said

(42:16):
no such records,
you know, exist. So
not only
would the attorney general fail to comment
on these things happening
underneath
his
leadership,
he also failed to send out any guidance
to the issuing authorities to rectify these problems.

(42:40):
So he's like incredibly comp in this scheme.
So when I went and
addressed the attorney general's office again
to say
hey,
I put out these open public record requests,
you know, seeing if you sent out any
guidance, I noticed you did not send out

(43:01):
any guidance.
Do you have any comment on that, and
do you have any intention to send out
any guidance? Like, is it in your prerogative
to eventually,
you know, tell issuing authorities how to handle
these these issues?
And, of course, the... In both instances, they
wrote back with the office clients to comment.

(43:24):
So that's what we're dealing with in New
Jersey right now.
The entire New Jersey legislative body has been
notified. Of the racial bias issue.
I did email them all.
I got single digit responses, and of those
single digit responses
only 1

(43:44):
actual leg
themselves responded to me, not a staff or
something like that. Right? Mh.
And that legislators seemed interested in talking about
it, and
then
it never got off the ground. Right? I
probably should ref follow up with them, but
there's so much going on.

(44:05):
But the entire legislative body has been notified
and was asked for comment on this, no
comment. Nothing.
Again, the attorney general is, like, and now
at this point completely implicit with it.
The governor's office failed to
respond to 3 requests for comments. So Governor

(44:25):
Phil Murphy's office.
Will not respond
with a comment to the racial bias issue
at all.
And then I also have
a response from the New Jersey Ac
that I'll be writing about in the future,
as well as senator, Corey Booker, for those
of you who don't

(44:46):
know who senator, Corey Booker is. He's 1
of our, you know, federal, you know, senators.
In New Jersey.
He's the guy that was yelling about being
Sparta kiss a number of years ago. I
don't know if you guys remember that, Cory
Booker.
I did get a response from him that
I help you reporting on to in the
future as well.

(45:08):
But let me tell you something. It's nothing
earth shattering because if it was, I would
covered it already.
And pretty much unilaterally
across the board, the N
p, the Ac u,
doctor Cornell West,
A Sharp in his group,

(45:29):
black lives matter.
Nobody
nobody cares. Nobody responded to me.
I That's kind of amazing because
you're not talking about...
You're not talking something that's arbitrary. These are
constitutional rights and you would think that
those groups would stand up for the

(45:51):
civil rights of the individuals because, you know,
when, you know,
when your rights are denied, you know, that's
a major
in fraction.
You know, on the government side of things
and not what was originally
envisioned by our founders
for...
Yep. So that's that's what we have going

(46:12):
on in New Jersey right now. And you
know, we'll see how it all flush out.
Well, man, I this is John. Yeah. Go
ahead. My blood, you know,
getting
getting heated up here a little bit. I'm
sure there's some instructors in New Jersey there
that are, you know, wondering what can they
do as well. There's probably structures are other

(46:33):
places.
What can we do
from the instructor side of things,
a to help our students so that you
can get a concealed carry permit in a
reasonable amount of time and b what can
we do to help sway the, you know,
political wins
to be more, you know, fair to to
everybody.

(46:54):
Well, I mean, we have to show up
and vote. That's the first thing that we
have to do.
We also have to you know, engage our
quotes, a public service. Listen and I say
air quotes, because they
Most of the time they're serving themselves are
not serving us. The people least in New
Jersey.
There are states out there that they're public

(47:15):
servants actually do serve the people. It's just
that New Jersey is a corrupt wasteland
that's, like, basically mafia ridden.
And if you don't believe me about that,
just look at the the latest thing that
the attorney general launched
against a former, you know,
democratic power broker here in the state. So

(47:38):
with Rico and racket clearing charges. So
there is, like, a lot of influence here
that's very bad and negative.
So we have an uphill battle. So voting
is
is probably the most important thing that we
can do, but we also do need to
let
our
public servants

(47:59):
know
what we're thinking, and we need to engage
them, and we need to continually write them,
you know, send snail mail letters and emails
and phone calls, all of it just to
let your position be known.
And there's a lot of people out there.
Say, well, it's not gonna make a difference.
It's not gonna make a difference.

(48:20):
Maybe it will, maybe it won't, but it's
like the minimum that we can do
to stay engaged. Not everyone has to do
what you and I do, Rob, for our
see our activism. Like, you know, you put
a lot of time effort
and money into your craft to
expand

(48:41):
knowledge on firearms training and rights and
and and the rest.
And obviously, I spend a lot of time
doing this. You know,
people who are just instructors or students even,
just got owners, you don't have to get
involved to this level. It's the simple things

(49:01):
like I said.
Staying engaged even minimally.
And then if if you're not gonna even
do that, you should still, but
send money to the organizations that are supporting
you. Like, you have
the Buck eye firearms and you also have
the
Ohio Rifle
Association. Right? Is that that's... That's called? Ohio

(49:21):
Rifle on Pistol. Yeah. Ohio Rifle Pistol, buck
firearms, both groups that are doing great work
up by you.
By me in New Jersey. We've got the
association in New Jersey, firearms owners,
We've got
we've got, NJ2.
We've got
coalition in Jersey firearms owners, rifle pistol club

(49:44):
here, That's what I meant to say. A
n jr pc. I'm like, running alphabet soup
here is the Association of new Jersey Rifle
Pistol Clubs. My gosh.
How could I forget? And these are the
groups that are doing a lot of the
work here
in in litigation front. And then you also
have the national arena and groups, like, the

(50:04):
second amendment
foundation,
got owners of America, gun owners
foundation, firearms, policy
coalition,
etcetera, etcetera. Up to and including the Nra
and I know a lot of people... You
know, they don't wanna talk about the Nra.
Like, we don't talk about Bruno. We don't
talk about the Nra.
We need to remember that the Nra,

(50:24):
the the brewing case was always an Nra
case from from day 1. So
Nra was supporting the
you know, New York State Rifle Pistol
Association
in that. So this this this
victory that we have
in Brewing
was made very much so in part by
the Nra. So

(50:47):
But even if you don't wanna support them
find, there's other groups out there to support
that are doing the work for us.
And I guess that's the best advice that
I could give, you know,
on this route.
And if... Would it be helpful if people
went long and
you wrote about this on bearing arms, and
that's where I where I saw at and

(51:09):
get the idea for the podcast.
To go along and, basically send a quick
letter to their legislature saying, hey, what are
you gonna be doing about this
discrepancy savings? I think enough people ask, they
will get the
they will understand that people are,
they want this kind of stuff,
you know, to stop and for the permitting
process to be fair across the board no

(51:30):
matter. What econ economic,
you know, status you're in?
Oh, yes. Specifically, if you're listening from New
Jersey, and you wanna engage on this actual
topic.
Find my article on bearing arms, The the
1 that article is called black applicants for
New Jersey permits to carry denied more than

(51:50):
double whites.
There's another 1 there that says is New
Jersey Ag Platt will allowing civil rights
violations and racial bias
and carry a permit scheme.
And and if you can't find them, I
have a link tree and a web page.
If you go to my web page dot
penn tree dot com,
there's a link to my link tree there
where it's got all the links to my

(52:12):
work.
You'll find it there. And if you wanna
send these articles
to your lawmakers
or all of the lawmakers,
I do think that we'll make a difference,
because eventually, they're gonna have to answer to
that. And I and I I'll extend that
to all so to the attorney general's office
and to the governor's office. They all need

(52:32):
to be held
you know, accountable for this,
especially because that
that 2c
law that I keep reading off that's the
interest in public health safety and welfare standard
that I'm talking about.
They actually changed it during the Brewing response

(52:54):
bill,
and they added that last part about lacking
the essential character of temperament
necessary to be entrusted with a firearm.
They added that to the to the law.
So all the people that voted for this
are now actually need to understand that they
voted for a law that's being

(53:15):
disproportionately used against blacks.
Originally, the public health safety welfare
ended right there. Says to any person where
the issuance would not be in the interest
of public health safety or welfare. Right? They
added all that other
mum jumbo about the character of temperament

(53:35):
to just make the the statute
extra deadly.
So that would be my
recommendation. And if you had similar issues in
your jurisdiction, it's not New Jersey,
Yet. A concerted effort sending all of that
information, and I think would at least,
catch their attention.
Mh.
Yeah. It's 1 of those things where, you

(53:58):
know, this time of year go into the
elections and different things like that. The politicians
are extremely
responsive when it comes to cons questions. And
I think you really gotta
ask them, you know, this is not fair,
what you've uncovered? And what are they gonna
do about it? And if they decide to

(54:19):
give you the standard, you know, answer of,
you know, we'll look into it. You know,
we... You know, and, you know, we gotta
check the data first.
You know, stay on them and see what's
going on because if you got a
political candidate that is not going to
you know, fight for his constituents.
You know, that's probably not the right

(54:40):
politician for you to vote for come come
November.
Oh, yeah. For sure.
But... Yeah. That's the
that's the update in the Garden state, Rob.
Yeah. That's just
Like I said,
you know, season 4, episode 13, when we
talked about permanent carry here in Ohio. And,

(55:00):
you know, people, the people that were disproportionately
affected
by the, or by the concealed carry laws
that we had at the time and they
kinda helped push that over? They finish line
for the purpose carry here in Ohio. It's
1 of those things people really need to
look at, you know, who's it serving? Who's
the thought because
I encourage everybody. Go out. Get as much
training as they can afford, but Also realize

(55:22):
that a lot of cases, if you're a
lower income. You may not have enough for
a gun this month and training and apply
for your Gary permits so you need to
stretch that out afford.
And those are all things to wear,
you know, you should be able to exercise
your
your rights without having to, you know, wait

(55:42):
off thousand days on the government to issue
a
concealed carry permit.
So
thank you, John for your time because that's
that really gets me going.
Here in Ohio. This give
contrast.
I got them. I was
On a phone call with my mom, pulled

(56:03):
in the sheriff's office told her I'd I
called her back when I came out of
sheriff's office called her back 3 minutes later.
After I've been fingerprint my money and give
them the application.
Okay? 3 minutes later.
And that was on Tuesday by Friday. I
had my concealed carry permit my hand. They
had mailed it to me.
Yeah. It's incredible. It it really is. It's

(56:23):
it's a
electronic system. I mean,
It's it's essentially the same system that if
you get pulled over for speeding,
you know, or something that police officer is
gonna look into it. It's it's not 1
of those things that takes a whole lot
of time. It's boom. It's there? No. No
answer.
When I put in for my Pennsylvania permit

(56:44):
to carry,
I submitted the
application around midnight.
And then
what I woke up the next morning, I
saw that I had gotten my approval at
8AM.
So
it could be that quick. Like, overnight, like,

(57:04):
you know,
so did the... These these jurisdictions are playing
games.
Yeah. I know, unfortunately
they're not they're playing games with your safety
and with your
constitutional rights, which
should not happen, though. Now
But I and I definitely... I wanna say,
I very much so appreciate you sharing your

(57:26):
audience with me.
To get this information out because I know
this isn't
specifically a training related
topic.
Yes. Training comes in and out of here
because you actually, you know, you need to
get trained to get your permit to carry.
And I know,
I think, like I said, Tony talked a
lot about that.
On his episode with you. Mh.

(57:48):
So I know this is maybe a little
bit off the beaten path. It's a little
bit more political
from what you're accustomed to. So I definitely
appreciate you bringing me on to talk about
this because I think it's an important issue
and clearly, you know, you do too. Well,
I think 1 of the things that's interesting
and maybe this will spark a few of
the instructors out there to ask for the

(58:09):
same information or look up the same information
in their states.
Because it's 1 of those things to where
you get enough people asking questions about it.
Politicians and elective officials will start looking at
it because
it doesn't look good. You know, for, you
know, whether it's New Jersey or any other
state to have this kind of discrepancy say
between you know, the who they issue permits

(58:30):
to and who they don't. And then the
frivolous grounds that they, you know, that they,
you know, deny them on. I mean, it's
1 thing.
It's 1 thing if you can't pass a
44 73 to deny you, but it's a
whole another 1 to go along and say
you get speeding tickets or you got a
jay walking ticket and that's enough for us
to, you know,
decline your application. That's just not right.

(58:52):
Yeah. For sure. Yeah, Well, John, I appreciate
your time, but before we let you go,
we've been asked and all our season 7
guests. What do you do for your mental
health every day?
It's a great question, Rob. And I remember
being asked this on the walk to talk
America
podcast a number of years ago, and I

(59:13):
kinda laughed, and I said, well,
I used to I used to write.
To as an outlet to help me, you
know, you know,
to tend to my mental health and to,
you know,
have a little bit of cath
and then that that that writing,
it evolved,

(59:34):
and it's turned into something
completely different.
But I would say, yes. I still do
bright to help tend to my mental health,
but it's it's done a bit more for
me than just that
I I like to unplug and and just
do family time stuff and then be able
to,

(59:55):
you know,
do full on
as,
hit hit the water parks and things like
that and theme parks and
just you know, escape into, you know,
the crowds so to say, You know? I
don't know I like that kind of thing,
for sure.
Mh. But, yeah, lots of family time.

(01:00:17):
And a big thing is just putting the
putting the phone down, making sure you put
it down
you know, long enough to where you, you
know, you're getting a break from the constant
pings and
and whatnot. So
That's that's another thing. That's
little bit harder to subscribe to, but it's
something I try to do.

(01:00:37):
Yep.
Well, it takes
your mental health
is important thing to
stay focused on a little bit of,
attention to it can go a long way.
Absolutely.
Great.
Well, John, where can people find out about
you, what you're doing with the Penn patriot
patron and what you're doing at bearing arms?

(01:00:59):
Okay. So my work
over at bearing arms
you can find links to all of that
work, obviously at bearing arms. But if you
go to my website the penn
dot com,
there's an area there where it'll take you
to my link tree, and then it'll also
have links to
specific bio lines, like the bearing arms, 1

(01:01:20):
or ammo land or whatever.
And you could check out all my articles
there.
I'm also on Facebook
the Penn patriot on Facebook.
Over at
Instagram,
j Pet,
III
over at Twitter. I'm John Pet.
And then, of course, something that you and

(01:01:40):
I briefly spoke about is I just launched
a new website
called the square reviews, and it's a product
and travel review site. And it's pretty cool
because it gives me an opportunity to flex
a little bit on some of these other
things that we're talking about, like, me saying,
hey, just unplug with the family and go
to a water park or a theme park

(01:02:01):
Well, if you wanna learn about all that,
you can head over to the square reviews
dot com, and I've got a bunch of
water park reviews. I got some Theme Park
reviews.
But the long side that. I also have
some everyday carry flashlight,
some h
and other, you know, gadgets and things that
might be of interest to you.

(01:02:22):
I don't know when you're rolling the the
episode out, but by the time this comes
out, I think there'd be a pair of
socks.
A pack wool socks that you could read
about. So that's all over there.
And it kinda gave me an opportunity to
take all of these experiences that I'm having
and put them there, and that includes both
the the firearm related stuff and, you know,

(01:02:44):
everything else,
Very nice. Very nice. Well, John. Appreciate you
having on... Coming on the podcast again and
sharing your information even got
got me a little bit hot into the
collar. It it's good to be educated about
these and also, you know, as instructors who've
gotta be able to you know, pass good
information on to our students, and you definitely

(01:03:06):
are wealth of good information, John?
Well, Thank you, Rob. I I definitely appreciate
it and and again, thank you. Thank you
very much for sharing your your audience for
me. And 1 more quick plug
anybody that has
a do story or a tip or anything
like that. You wanna get in touch with
me, you could email me very easily.

(01:03:28):
John at at z pan
dot com.
Okay.
Well, those are all be in the show
notes for people, and
Again john. Thanks for your time. Take it
easy Rob. Bye. That's a wrap for this
episode, and hope you
taking some notes or gonna plan on taking
some action after listening to that podcast of

(01:03:51):
what John's covered
through his freedom information act on New Jersey
permit systems and how they discriminate against people
for some of the
little things in the world. Anything to deny
somebody the right to be able to defend
themselves.
And remember, share this with your friends, maybe

(01:04:11):
your family.
Get people knowing. And again, as farm owners,
we're not a noisy crowd, normally.
But some of these things we really do
have to stand up and say it's not
right.
Government should be should be fair to everybody
not to just their people
that they view worthy for it. And remember,

(01:04:33):
if you're searching for
information,
to help your business out. Don't forget to
check out our
website at WWW
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(01:04:56):
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(01:05:17):
Who bring this podcast support industry. The second
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Stay safe out there everyone.
Concealed care Inc and concealed care dot com
strive to share helpful information and education about
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that may potentially have legal implications for listeners.

(01:05:38):
The information contained in this podcast is attended
in good faith, but it is important to
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