August 2, 2024 • 37 mins
Since the last podcast, a lot has happened in the world. One of things that hasn't happened is the White Sox winning a single game.
Today we avoid current events to discuss some fallout from the trade deadline, with quite a bit of attention to the closer landscape for the rest of the season. Also, we make some more general observations about a deadline that was low-key interesting, even without a lot of stars moving teams. And the podcast ends with a brief mention of the most Giant player who has never played for the Giants until now.
Flags Fly Forever is a Baseball Prospectus podcast. For more fantasy baseball information, visit baseballprospectus.com and click on "Fantasy" or visit our Twitter feed @baseballpro.
You can find Flags Fly Forever on Twitter @FlagsFlyBP. The hosts of Flags Fly Forever are Mike Gianella(@mikegianella.bsky.social) and Jon Hegglund(@jonhegglund.bsky.social). The producer of Flags Fly Forever is Jon Hegglund.
Special thanks to the awesome and generous Petite League for permission to use their track "Mets" for the intro and break music. Find their sweet lo-fi indie-pop sounds at petiteleague.com.
Today we avoid current events to discuss some fallout from the trade deadline, with quite a bit of attention to the closer landscape for the rest of the season. Also, we make some more general observations about a deadline that was low-key interesting, even without a lot of stars moving teams. And the podcast ends with a brief mention of the most Giant player who has never played for the Giants until now.
Flags Fly Forever is a Baseball Prospectus podcast. For more fantasy baseball information, visit baseballprospectus.com and click on "Fantasy" or visit our Twitter feed @baseballpro.
You can find Flags Fly Forever on Twitter @FlagsFlyBP. The hosts of Flags Fly Forever are Mike Gianella(@mikegianella.bsky.social) and Jon Hegglund(@jonhegglund.bsky.social). The producer of Flags Fly Forever is Jon Hegglund.
Special thanks to the awesome and generous Petite League for permission to use their track "Mets" for the intro and break music. Find their sweet lo-fi indie-pop sounds at petiteleague.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
By the way, can you hear me?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome to episode three fourteen of Flags Fly Forever, a
Baseball Perspective fantasy baseball podcast. I'm Mike Gianella and with
me is John Haglin. John, how are you doing tonight?
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Doing all right? Doing better than the Chicago White Sox
baseball club? I would venture to say, Mike, what what
have the Chicago White Sox not done since we last
recorded this podcast?
Speaker 1 (00:45):
They have not won a game?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
They I believe it's they're oh and sixteen since we were, well,
since the podcast dropped. I don't remember it was when
we recorded dropped, but yeah, they they are.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
They've lost sixteen.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
I think they've lost seventeen in a row, but one
of those us has came in the second end of
a doubleheader. So yeah, maybe maybe they've just been waiting
for us to record, and you know, every day they're
very sadly hoping for an episode, and where they don't
get one, they just go out there all dejected and
don't play it.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Well, that that must be it.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Well, so I will try to get this out, you know,
so that it releases very early in the morning, so
that the clubhouse has a chance to show and it
shows up in their feed, and uh, you know they
can they can, they can blast it in the clubhouse
before their game tomorrow and hopefully it will lead them
to victory.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Maybe you can wait until Monday. Actually, except I'm just looking.
They have the Twins on the schedule. We do want
our we do want our twins in the main event
to kick ass. So let let's let's hold it off
till Monday when they play the A's, and really, who
gives a ship who wins those games.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
So we we're recording a few days after the trade deadline,
or to two days. It's we're recording on a Thursday evening.
Trade deadline was a little over forty eight hours ago,
and we are not going to run through every single
trade because I don't think that you need someone to
(02:16):
tell you at this point that, yeah, jazz Chism should
do really well in New York. Uh and you know
if you have jazz Chism, hold on.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
To him, yeah yeah, or Lane or Lane Thomas is
going to steal you know, maybe a few fewer bases
in you know, in Cleveland, like who cares.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yeah, Randy Rosarena in t Mobile Park. It's not a
good offensive environment. So expect a little downturn.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
I like this.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
We're doing the thing we said we would do, although
ironically we're doing it very we're doing it very quick
sound bites.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Yeah, what what I wanted to do is, first to
I wanted to just maybe take a little more global
look at not just the trades that happened, but maybe
how they shifted the landscape. And here will probably kind
of shuttle back and forth between fantasy baseball and real baseball.
But did you have any any takeaways from from this
(03:17):
particular trade deadline?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Like what a couple and I guess I'll start with
the real world implications, Like, first of all, there was
a lot of movement. There's some years where I would
say there aren't a lot of trades. There's a lot
of really like minor trades on the margins, And you know,
you know, it's something that's kind of interesting about this
is I think some people thought that with the expanded
(03:42):
playoff format, which we've had for a little while now,
that it would curtail movement. That a lot of teams
might decide, if you know they're still in it, they're
going to go for it, which would lead to a
narrower like focus, but that's not really the case, right Like,
there were a couple of teams in the middle, like
the or the Cubs that didn't do very much. I mean,
I know the Cubs made that one big trade with
(04:04):
the Rays, but they really do very much in terms
of going all in or you know, giving up completely.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
But there still were a lot of trades.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Now that being said, Jazz Chisholm, as you mentioned, was
the biggest trade. I don't want to say by far,
but it probably was the biggest trade in terms of impact.
Something that was missing at this deadline was that kind
of deal.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Like there were some rumors.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
About about Tark Scuball and a couple other players like that.
They just didn't Oh, Blake Snell was another one, at
least at least Robert Yeah, And they just didn't come
to fruition, right like. And I had a feeling. I
don't know if you did, Like I just had a feeling.
As the deadline day itself was pretty quiet up until
the end, I had a feeling that was going to
be the case that we weren't going to see like
(04:49):
a big blockbuster trade.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I will say some of it.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
This is the first year I haven't been on Twitter
slash x, so I'm not as close to the gristmill
as I used to be in terms of constantly hearing things.
But it really just even being off of Twitter X,
that was just my feeling of like, well, I don't
think we're going to see one of those like bigger blockbusterages.
And one more point I'll make is that I think
some of that is teams aren't hugging their prospects exactly,
(05:14):
but like the days of a team trading even one
of their like premier prospects in a deal like this
at the deadline are probably gone. Like I think teams
really value those types of prospects prospects in a way like, well,
we're not trading this player for a rental or even
for you know, somewhere and a half for a year
and a half unless we're absolutely sure, like we can
(05:36):
like lock the player upside to an extension.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
I mean, then maybe not so much.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
It's almost like there's a misalignment between the high profile
players how they're valued by their current teams. And you know,
you put those players out of the market, you get
offers back, and you're like, well, shouldn't I shouldn't I
be getting a top ten prospect for or Luise Robert
or Blake Snell or whomever, and it's just not happening,
(06:05):
you know, so those teams end up holding onto those players.
I thought in a weird way that this was maybe
because of the lack of really big you know, the Dodgers,
you know, getting Tray Turner or something like that. I
thought it was a lot more interesting to me just
(06:27):
because there were, as you said, a lot of deals,
but they were all very They all felt very kind
of strategic and small. But you know, you could sort
of track how this would change the prospects for the
or the the outlook for this team a little bit,
but you know, not necessarily. It wasn't like an indication
(06:49):
that they were just pushing all their chips in. And
I think maybe that's part of the landscape of the
you know, more playoff spots, is that teams maybe are
not thinking, well, we have to either go all in
sell that we can just make these moves on the
margins and you know, maybe give ourselves like a ten
percent better chance to make the playoffs.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Well, so, yeah, I mean there's a couple of things
about that too, Like on on the one side, I
think give a team like the Phillies, where you know,
if you look at the Phillies, you're like, well, and
I know I've done as well lately, But if you
look at the roster, you're like, well, what is of
the Dodgers too, It's like, well, what big impact player
are they necessarily going to get that's going to make
(07:29):
them so much better that you're like, okay, wow, like
I see it, like this player is really going to
just add so much to to what the team does.
And you know, the flip side of it is like
the Orioles, like everybody else could have used a marquee
starting pitcher, but if Dree Scuba wasn't available, who was
the best picture out there?
Speaker 1 (07:50):
It was? It was probably Flairty, right, it was probably Flaherty.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
You know, again, assuming Snell is a villa, it's probably Flaherty,
who's good and he's having a really good year. But
but again, he's not somebody I feel you give up
a ton for where you know what I'm saying, like,
he's spot I don't want to knock you know, Jack Flower,
he's goods.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
It's just hard to It's not the kind of picture
that you really want to go all in for because
the track record has been so spotty before this year.
But yeah, and now I think was was available, but
his season has just been so weird that you know,
I do wonder And I texted this year like, I
(08:31):
was very curious what kind of offers the Giants were
getting because you know, he's got a he's got a
big contract, but it's a you know, it's a two
year with an opt out after this year. And then
he had a terrible start, you know, injured. Obviously the
ramp up was slow because he signed so late, but
(08:54):
that in the last you know, three four starts, he's
been absolutely lights out. So it's really hard to know
what you're going to get, even though you know Snell
is generally a better second half picture. So yeah, it's
pretty interesting.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Well there's the other Yeah, there's the only thing two
about Snell, which is that it was sort of would
be a no win for the team acquiring him because
if he does stink or get hurt and you trade
prospects for him, you're stuck with him next year, right
where it's like, okay, so we trade these prospects and
we're on the hook for the money, you know, putting
aside what the Giants might.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Have paid or not paid.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
And if he's great and goes out, you know, yes,
I know, flags fly forever. Same with the podcast. Maybe
he you know, gets you deep in the playoffs, but
if he's great and you give up prospects, he'll be gone.
He'll be like, Okay, well I'm gonna really cash it now.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
And so whether you said you had a couple, oh.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Those those were the two. Yeah, so I could certainly
make more, but.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Well we'll get you know, we'll just kind of wind
our way through the the observations. The one thing that
we've been talking about, and I don't want to make
this about our our main event team, so I'm going
to generalize this conversation, but it does come out of
our the situation we find ourselves in with respect to
(10:19):
saves and closers, and I think probably a lot of
teams are, a lot of managers, Fantasy managers are in
a similar situation where you're at a point in the
season where maybe you've had, you know, two marginal closers
or you know us closers who have the job, but
(10:41):
one of them maybe has lost it recently. Jose Alvarado
and you're at kind of an inflection point about how
to approach saves right now. This is for us. It's like,
we can compete in our own fifteen team league without
(11:04):
you know, at our current level of saves where I think, like,
I don't know, we've got We're like twelveth or something,
but we're at the bottom of a fairly large cluster.
But you know, we could gain if we did, you know,
acquire one closer, we could actually make some ground and
gain a few points, which would help us in the overall.
So putting all that aside, we and you sort of
(11:28):
mentioned a few different ways to approach this, okay, So
I'm kind of repackaging what you said into a few
different strategies here. If you are sort of in a
borderline position with saves, right, do you just weekly chase
saves on these bad unsettled teams, Like do you put
(11:49):
in for I mean, I would say the White Sox,
but that's just you obviously, do not try to chase
saves in the White Sox bullpen. But say I don't
know a Victor Vodnik or whoever's filling in for Mason
Miller in Oakland or Miami, right, with Tanner Scott being traded.
So you've got some fairly bad teams who have saves
(12:11):
for the taking, but we don't know who's gonna get
the bulk of those. Okay, So that's option one. Option
two is you try to buy into a possible committee
on a good team, like the Dodgers are the one
that comes to mind for me right now. It's possible
Phillips is Phillip's healthy. He's healthy, right, he's just been.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, he's healthy, just hasn't been very back. Yeah,
you know.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
So do you try to think committee like this is
a two person committee, but it's on a good team.
So maybe I can get the the B pitcher, like
maybe not the A pitcher, the B pitcher and eke
out like five to seven saves the rest of the year.
Or do you and I'm not I'm actually leaving a
(12:58):
side punting the category completely, which is I guess an option.
But do you get reliable setup guys? You get like
an eighth inning guy and the name that you know
we were looking at was like Jennie your Cano or
Griffin Jacks or someone like that who is pretty clearly
the next in line and is the high leverage eighth
(13:21):
inning pitcher but is behind a really solid closer, so
or and then four option four just completely dump all
your relievers and just go all in on starters. What
are your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Oh my god, I mean there's so many thoughts like
I could like this is I do love talking strategy
like this. Well really, so try to keep continue generalizing
this so we don't turn this into a thing about
our specific team. It obviously depends on like where you're
at the category.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Well, let's start with the one.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Like if you're like something about our main event team,
I know, I just do specifics. So we're like low
on fab, like relatively low. Now now there's teams finally,
like you know, passing us down toward the bottom, but
we're still relatively low on FAB. And it's not a
zero dollar minimum league, so there is a limitation like
(14:22):
in a league with zero dollar FAB or waivers. I
think that you can be much more comfortable just plugging
away every week and like you know what, I'll just
take a I'll just take a reliever and on a
team that has like let's say an eight game schedule
because of a double header, and I'll take the second
I'll take the best reliever out there. I'll hope that
reliever gets to save, and I'll do that every week
(14:44):
and maybe I'll you know, i won't get to save
every week, but maybe I'll get three or four saves
on top of the one closer that I have for
the rest of the year.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
I should also point out that that's the.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Thing too, Like we still have a closer in this
scenario that John's talking about, Like we have Fairbanks.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Who we thought would get traded.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
But yeah, I really thought he would get traded.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
And it's funny we picked up Robert Garcia because I
really thought Kyle Finnegan would get traded and he didn't.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Like that's just the way it goes.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
So really, some of this depends on your fab your needs,
Like like if you're strong in a lot of the
categories and you just just need to shore up saves,
then sure, Like if you want to put in an
aggressive bid this weekend on you know, Hunter Strickland or
whoever you like in the Marlins Bullpen, go do it.
Or Victor Vodnik if you like Vodnick. I mean, it's
(15:33):
sort of funny, like I just pulled up the last
like thirty days, and Vondnik has four saves like he
it's like a save a week, which doesn't sound like much,
but that's like a twenty five Yeah, yeah, it's like
about a twenty five save pace, which maybe he won't
do that. But if you can get that from any reliever,
that's that's awesome, Like you're golden. So that's and it
(15:58):
als spends your league too, right, because the shallower leagues
or leagues that aren't ast competitive, they are going to
be second tier closers out there. They might not be
the most appealing relievers, but they're going to be there
for you for the taking. But if that's not an option,
I think that's more common, then it really sort of
becomes a question like, well can you afford to keep
(16:22):
plugging away with that second reliever. And I think some
of the conversation too ties into your other categories, because
if you're already kind of middle of the packetyran whip
or worse, and they're like, well, just adding a Miles
Michaelis for example, or a low level free agent or
plucking someone off of your reserve list and going with
(16:43):
eight starters in one reliever is more palatable, then if
you're in a dogfighting iran whip and you're like, well,
I can't really just plug any starter into that slot,
like there's an opportunity costs there. So yeah, I think
what's really tough about it, too, is if you're at
the bottom of a clump like we are, you probably
do It might not sound like a lot, but you
(17:05):
probably do want to chase those four or five saves.
Something funny I didn't realize, like, is that Pete Fairbanks
over the last thirty days has seven saves.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
I would not have certainly did not realize.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
I would not have guessed that, like I would have
guessed he had like three or four. Like I would
have been like, okay, like he's been fine, but he's
not really getting the saves. And some of it is
like gess, I think I even fall into the myth
of the rays of like oh, they they mix up
their relievers. It's like no, not for saves, like no,
not really. They use historically when they have a great
reliever or closer great really like Fairbanks, they use them
(17:39):
as a closer. It's when they don't have that reliever
is when they kind of mix a match and get creative. Yeah,
so I don't know answer your question like it's really
it's hard to answer because there are just so many
different ways that you can go.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Well, talk a little bit about the option of just
going after Jennier Cano or a Griffin Jacks or a
picture like that. Who's because this is this is the
maybe if you if the ratios are, if you're tight
with other teams in ratios, then getting a picture that's
(18:15):
more reliable, you know, it could be the way to go.
And if for some reason that closer loses their job
or gets injured, you've almost certainly lucked into a closer
for however long you know, the season, whatever's left of
the season. And it's also I guess an advantage from
(18:36):
the point of view if you are short on fab
that you go out and you get one of these guys,
then you just sort of you don't think about chasing
saves on a tweak basis.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Well, well you hit You hit upon both things too,
which is that there's there's two ways to do this
and one way is you know you mentioned Cano, is
to try to pick a reliable setup behind a reliever
that you might that might be shaky, like like you
always hear about how Craig Kimbrall is going to lose
his job and he doesn't lose his job, that doesn't
mean he won't though, Like it's certainly a possibility. So
(19:09):
you could go out and pick him up, or you
could go out and pick up aj Puck or Kevin
Ginkel on the Diamondbacks Paul Sewald, I mean, though he's
been saving games, has been shaky, Like I'm not going
to rattle through every reliever who's been like shaky. But
that's that's one way, right. You can look at a
reliever where you're like, okay, like this this guy's had
(19:30):
a bad week, he's had a bad month, Like maybe
the team will switch even if it's not permanent, and
I can get a week or two of saves. But
then the other option kind of goes into the concept of, well,
maybe I just go for the quality reliever, like like
maybe I pick up Kate Smith, for example, who is
not going to get saves, like even if there's an
(19:52):
injury problem, will get saves. But Kate Smith has been
lights out the last month. He's got a couple of
wins because he's on a really good team. He gets
the strikeouts like the era is low.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
You know.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Cole Sands is another example on the Twins, Like it's
just the idea that you pick up a Dentis Santana.
On the Pirates, you just go with the quality reliever,
and you're like, well, this is not a saves play,
this isn't everything else play, Like this is a rate
stats play, the strikeouts play, and maybe I pick up
a straight winner, a save or two. Maybe I don't.
(20:24):
I mean, David Robertson is if he's available. I know
in some leagues he's taken, Like I think he's taken
about a fifth of CBS leagues. Another great example of
that kind of reliever, right, like Kirby Yates is clearly
the closer, but Robertson last month has a win, he
has a save, he has eleven strikeouts per nine. He's
a one to seventy or a Son.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Robertson, I guess is sorry, interrupid. He's took a slightly
different example because he is that that eighth fitting guy
who if Yates goes down, he's likely to write to
step in for the saves, and he's doing really well
with ratios and striker.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
And yeah, yeate, that's another way to go to Yates
as great as he's been, has an injury history, and like,
even if he stays healthy, the Raiders might look at
him and go, well, like, let's start to split things
up a little bit, you know, in the last month,
or you know, just to keep Yates healthy, just to
keep him fresh, we might make the playoffs. I mean
they might not, but you know, their path looks like
(21:18):
the division, not the wild card. But yeah, so I
think a lot of it just depends on your situation.
But you know, I've pounded my desk about this for years,
which is Relievers in terms of what they offer in
non save categories is very underrated. And I think even
in a format like the main event, it's probably slightly underrated.
(21:39):
Like I know saves matter in the overall, but really here,
like if you're talking I think I might be talking
myself into this, by the way, I'm talking us into this.
If you're talking about our best option being Hunter Strickland
or whoever we think you know, the guy in the
Marlins is going to be and those are the best
closers because I think Vondik is gone. Like, you know,
(22:02):
that's the thing about the main It's competitive enough I'm
pretty sure he's gone. So really, barring an injury between
now and Sunday, yeah, we might be better off taking
the guy with the right stats and being like, you
know what, let's just take the quality reliever. Let's keep
going with seven starters. Let's go with Fairbanks and hope
(22:23):
that he, you know, has another month or two like
he just had where he saves like ten to twelve
games and kind of see what happens about. So another
important thing too about all this in terms of context
is looking at the other teams in your league.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
And I know the sounds like also.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Boilerplate, but this does really matter. Like in the clump
we're in, for example, if everybody ahead of us had
two closers, I'd be like, well, it doesn't really make
sense to really even bother trying to get the maybe closer.
But if there's teams that also have one closer or
have none, I think there's actually a team in that
clump ahead of us that doesn't have any for whatever reason,
(23:00):
then it's like, okay, well we might as well run
Fairbanks out there nothing else, because it's it's still a
free point.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Yeah, and I'm actually looking the flip side of that is,
and I said, we wouldn't make it about our team,
but we're making it about our team.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
I'm also thinking, man, I wish we had taken Kyle
Fittigan and instead of Alvarado. But you know what's what's
tough is.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
Is that the team behind us, they're eight behind us,
Like you said, we're at the bottom of the clump,
and there's a pretty big gap. And then there's another
five saves to the next team beyond there so, and
then the team behind us has Kirby Eates, so they
have one nailed on closer, and then they're trying to
play it with Shelby Miller, right, so you know one.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Who could who could be the the co closer there
He and Folly have two saves apiece in the last month.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
But I think it's it's still likely that even if
we plugged away with just Fairbanks, that that team would
not catch us, right. So sure, it's almost like there's
nothing to lose.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
By just running Fairbanks out there, right right right? That
that's the argument. I really the tricky thing there is
the idea of like.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Well, but it doesn't help us. The overall could be Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Well, I think to be honest, we were probably not
going to get into any of the money positions.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
It would be great.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
I just don't I don't see it. You know, it
would be great. I'm sorry to burst the collective bubble there.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
We don't have to get to thirty five. We have been,
we've been, we're.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Hunting it, we're heading in the right direction.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
But I think in terms of the overall we're already
in moral victories territory.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
I think you're right.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
I wish I wish it weren't so.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
But yeah, but if you know, if we do get
into the money our league, that that allows us to
to you know, sort of repeat this experiment next year, for.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
To run it, to run it back, to run it back.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
And you know, with another year with a year of wisdom,
not Patrick wisdom, and uh, you know, a free a
free role basically, So wouldn't be the worst thing.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
I get it would be did you have something else
about like trade you want to talk about?
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Because we we certainly could go on and on.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
About a closers, but I know for some people that's
a that's a topic where they're like.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Uh, I guess, yeah, not I guess. The only other
observation that I had, which I think is probably, like
you said, a boilerplate one. Is that the one the
one thing that I think I've seen some players get
excited about a player being traded. So let's use like
(25:58):
Jesse Winker as an ample who was playing every day
in Washington traded to the Mets, a contending team, a
better team, a better offense. But Jesse Waker is not
playing every day. He's not even really starting against every
(26:20):
right handed pitcher, so I guess I would also, I
think Tommy Edmund when he gets healthy, is going to
play most every day. But the Dodgers are also a
team because they are you know, they're obviously they're going
to make the playoffs, but they might be battling for
(26:40):
you know, seating, or you know, they might be I mean,
I think the division is not really in question, but
they're going to mix a match. They got Ahmed Rosario
as well, so I'm interested. I'm more interested maybe in
the bad teams who got players that might get an
everyday role, like Miguel Vargas, Okay, obviously only a deep
(27:04):
league player.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
I feel like I feel like you're you read my column, like, wow,
that's that's nice.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
Did you write about. I'm so sorry, Mike, I didn't
read your car.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
I didn't just write about Vargas, like I wrote a
whole thing about players like this, and like, yeah, Vargas,
Vargas was the guy like highlighted because yeah, it's sort
of the idea.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
He hasn't done much lately.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
I'm just glad that I could read your mind.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
I feel like, yeah, well so what I what I
did is I kind of so So there were there
were three pieces and two of them were by Nathan Grimm,
and it was like a part one and part two
of the Contenders and you know, the players they got
and he used what we've used for years, which is
the arrow up arrow down method, and I more looked.
(27:53):
I just broke it down by team and I was like, okay,
like this is what happened in some cases, like you know,
I did the Rockies, I did Victor Vodnik and there
wasn't much to write about. But yeah, for teams like
the White Sox and the Rays and a few others,
I was like, okay, well there's actual like opportunity here,
like all enough. Not so much with the Rays because
of all the annoying platoons and so much. I did
(28:16):
mention like, you know, it would be awesome given that
They're like, actually, I want to let's go.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Back to real life for a second.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
I want to talk a little bit bit about the Rays,
and I know in the past this is.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Not going to be here we go.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Actually, I want to say that for the way they operate,
this kind of was the right move. And the more
I look at them, the more I'm like, well, they
still kept a lot of the players, Like they kept Fairbanks,
that kept low, they kept a lot of the players
who were their core players. They didn't really give up
so much that I'm like, okay, well they kept Diaz.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Well they kept enough players that I'm like, you know what,
it's not They're not. They didn't do it.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
The Marlins did, like the Marlins, I think, and they
were pretty open about when they traded Luisa Rise, like
a while back, They're like, well, we're not going anywhere.
It's going to be a long time before we're contending.
We're you know, kind of fixing what the regime to
you know, two regimes ago did It's going to be
a while. Like the Marlins openly said, yeah, we are
(29:17):
loading up on prospects because we know we're starting over.
I don't think that's what the Rays really did. I
think the Rays were like strategically looking at like, well,
like these are the players where that we think, knowing
our system, we can upgrade on and we can rebuild
and we can bounce back. I still don't like their
overall methodology, but I'm saying in terms of how they operate,
(29:39):
I kind of look at what they did, I'm like,
this actually is fine.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
They didn't really give anyone up where it's like, oh man,
this is really going to cost them next year.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
You don't think that about a Rosarina. No.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
I think he's I mean, it hurts him a little bit.
He's probably the closest of all that. But I think
I think within their system they can replace.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Him, hm hmm.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
I also I also think.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
They finally have kind of started spending money, Like Zach
Efflin Is wasn't the old school like super cheap player,
Like they did spend some money on him. And the
other thing is the more I look at it, the
more and this isn't just like recency biases. If he
hit two home runs, I do dig the the morrel
parade swap. I think that Morel's been a little bit
(30:25):
unlucky with Babbitt this year, and I also think that
the Rays are the kind of team that's going to
maximize what Christopher Morrell can do.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think Morel is just
someone with you know, off the charts talent, you know,
skills and talent, and you know, the strikeouts get him.
But you're you're right, like he's he and you know,
I think he's he's a darling of the Rates and
Barrels podcast because of his ex velocities and yeah, the Ray,
(30:58):
the Rays and parade, I think it had kind of
maxed out, like he did some thing really well, and
he did it well for a couple of years. But
you know, I don't I don't know that you're going
to see another you know, thirty homer season from East
ok Peredes.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
I will say though, that this is the thing about
the Rays, and this is why I brought them up,
like I I hope the last two months because they're
I know, they're so close to Wildcard race, but because
of the signals that for this year that they're presumably
not going for it, that they do some interesting things
that they let Josh Low play against some left handers.
(31:38):
And I'm not just saying that we're self interested, Like
and they let Curtis Mead, who I don't have any
of my team, so it's not self interest. I hope
they let him play a little bit more like. I
hope they do some things where it's like, Okay, let's
let's figure out what we have here for for next year.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
Yeah, yeah, call op junior Cameronaro.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Yeah, he's got Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
And and Richie pelasios Is he sounds like he's heading
to the IL, so that gives him even sort of
more runway with with Low and some other players be like,
you know what, let's let's let's kind of like let's
try this. Let's let's let's max these players out as
opposed to you know, you know it's a Giants fan.
Let's put everybody into an incremental platoon job share everyone
(32:23):
but three players, sorry, John, everyone but three players are valuable.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
We made it, I mean, with the absent the odd
Blake Snell reference, we made it through without mentioning the Giants.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
So are you are you happy? Well?
Speaker 2 (32:39):
I was gonna say, are you are you happy that?
Did you see the Grant Brisbee joke about Mark Counta.
I thought that was it. It was great.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
He said something.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Oh you know what, it's like, I'm gonna find it
because Grant Grant is funny enough.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
I'm not sure he just not listen to us.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
If you do listen to us, Grant, you're You're probably
one of the things about Twitter. I missed our people
on Twitter. I miss the most.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
Can you bring your talents to Blue Sky Grant?
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Yeah, oh my god, yeah, I only I hoped. I
hoped Twitter crashed the Birds just so we have to
see Grants. So he tweeted, I thought Mark Cotta had
been on the Giants for the last three years. Cobb
of t pH, He's not wrong, right, No, that's sort
of like, I mean, like the perfect Giant Giant, Like
(33:26):
he's the kind of guy where I mean he's ostensibly
a platoon player, which is bad for him because he's
going to play against lefties primarily. But it's not difficult
to see the Giants completely optimizing and maximizing him, and
at the end of the year he'll be like, oh
my god, like he his numbers of the Giants were great,
and yet somehow, because it's Mark.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
He's going to do it.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
Darren Roffe.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Yeah, because Mark Conna, They're gonna be like, Okay, Like
that's fine.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
It's very true. When when when I learned that he
had been traded to the Giants, I thought, oh, you
know some players you can't imagine in a different uniform.
And I'm like, oh, God, Mark Cannon a Giants forum
that seems incredibly natural.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Well, if anything, what's really weird is he's with the Tigers,
and I had that rustion we tell us all the
Tigers like, this doesn't look right, Like he clearly just
looks like he's here because he had to be here
because it was the best offer he could get. And
I'm not begrudging Connor the Tigers. I was like, yeah,
he doesn't really doesn't feel like he should be a Tiger.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Yeah, all right, Well we've we've made it to the
Mark kind of phase of the podcast, and that can
only mean one thing, Mike.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah, that we go down into the next rug of players. Though,
I think this means that we're going to close out
before we start talking about.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Money that we're gonna do.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
I have I have fifteen minutes. I have a tight
fifteen on the Jorge Hilari trade. So just buckle up.
I'm gonna I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Okay, I couldn't actually be here, so all right, let's uh,
let's take a breath and we'll close out. Thank you
(35:27):
once again for listening to episode three fourteen of Flags
Fly Forever, a fantasy baseball baseball perspectives podcast. We will
be back probably in a couple of weeks, i'd say,
with more content, So please come back when we're back
for Mike Janell and John Hagelin. Thank you very much,
and we'll be talking to you soon.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
Rate Review, Go white Bots, good night and m
By the way, can you hear me?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome to episode three fourteen of Flags Fly Forever, a
Baseball Perspective fantasy baseball podcast. I'm Mike Gianella and with
me is John Haglin. John, how are you doing tonight?
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Doing all right? Doing better than the Chicago White Sox
baseball club? I would venture to say, Mike, what what
have the Chicago White Sox not done since we last
recorded this podcast?
Speaker 1 (00:45):
They have not won a game?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
They I believe it's they're oh and sixteen since we were, well,
since the podcast dropped. I don't remember it was when
we recorded dropped, but yeah, they they are.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
They've lost sixteen.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
I think they've lost seventeen in a row, but one
of those us has came in the second end of
a doubleheader. So yeah, maybe maybe they've just been waiting
for us to record, and you know, every day they're
very sadly hoping for an episode, and where they don't
get one, they just go out there all dejected and
don't play it.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Well, that that must be it.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Well, so I will try to get this out, you know,
so that it releases very early in the morning, so
that the clubhouse has a chance to show and it
shows up in their feed, and uh, you know they
can they can, they can blast it in the clubhouse
before their game tomorrow and hopefully it will lead them
to victory.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Maybe you can wait until Monday. Actually, except I'm just looking.
They have the Twins on the schedule. We do want
our we do want our twins in the main event
to kick ass. So let let's let's hold it off
till Monday when they play the A's, and really, who
gives a ship who wins those games.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
So we we're recording a few days after the trade deadline,
or to two days. It's we're recording on a Thursday evening.
Trade deadline was a little over forty eight hours ago,
and we are not going to run through every single
trade because I don't think that you need someone to
(02:16):
tell you at this point that, yeah, jazz Chism should
do really well in New York. Uh and you know
if you have jazz Chism, hold on.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
To him, yeah yeah, or Lane or Lane Thomas is
going to steal you know, maybe a few fewer bases
in you know, in Cleveland, like who cares.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yeah, Randy Rosarena in t Mobile Park. It's not a
good offensive environment. So expect a little downturn.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
I like this.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
We're doing the thing we said we would do, although
ironically we're doing it very we're doing it very quick
sound bites.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Yeah, what what I wanted to do is, first to
I wanted to just maybe take a little more global
look at not just the trades that happened, but maybe
how they shifted the landscape. And here will probably kind
of shuttle back and forth between fantasy baseball and real baseball.
But did you have any any takeaways from from this
(03:17):
particular trade deadline?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Like what a couple and I guess I'll start with
the real world implications, Like, first of all, there was
a lot of movement. There's some years where I would
say there aren't a lot of trades. There's a lot
of really like minor trades on the margins, And you know,
you know, it's something that's kind of interesting about this
is I think some people thought that with the expanded
(03:42):
playoff format, which we've had for a little while now,
that it would curtail movement. That a lot of teams
might decide, if you know they're still in it, they're
going to go for it, which would lead to a
narrower like focus, but that's not really the case, right Like,
there were a couple of teams in the middle, like
the or the Cubs that didn't do very much. I mean,
I know the Cubs made that one big trade with
(04:04):
the Rays, but they really do very much in terms
of going all in or you know, giving up completely.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
But there still were a lot of trades.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Now that being said, Jazz Chisholm, as you mentioned, was
the biggest trade. I don't want to say by far,
but it probably was the biggest trade in terms of impact.
Something that was missing at this deadline was that kind
of deal.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Like there were some rumors.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
About about Tark Scuball and a couple other players like that.
They just didn't Oh, Blake Snell was another one, at
least at least Robert Yeah, And they just didn't come
to fruition, right like. And I had a feeling. I
don't know if you did, Like I just had a feeling.
As the deadline day itself was pretty quiet up until
the end, I had a feeling that was going to
be the case that we weren't going to see like
(04:49):
a big blockbuster trade.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I will say some of it.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
This is the first year I haven't been on Twitter
slash x, so I'm not as close to the gristmill
as I used to be in terms of constantly hearing things.
But it really just even being off of Twitter X,
that was just my feeling of like, well, I don't
think we're going to see one of those like bigger blockbusterages.
And one more point I'll make is that I think
some of that is teams aren't hugging their prospects exactly,
(05:14):
but like the days of a team trading even one
of their like premier prospects in a deal like this
at the deadline are probably gone. Like I think teams
really value those types of prospects prospects in a way like, well,
we're not trading this player for a rental or even
for you know, somewhere and a half for a year
and a half unless we're absolutely sure, like we can
(05:36):
like lock the player upside to an extension.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
I mean, then maybe not so much.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
It's almost like there's a misalignment between the high profile
players how they're valued by their current teams. And you know,
you put those players out of the market, you get
offers back, and you're like, well, shouldn't I shouldn't I
be getting a top ten prospect for or Luise Robert
or Blake Snell or whomever, and it's just not happening,
(06:05):
you know, so those teams end up holding onto those players.
I thought in a weird way that this was maybe
because of the lack of really big you know, the Dodgers,
you know, getting Tray Turner or something like that. I
thought it was a lot more interesting to me just
(06:27):
because there were, as you said, a lot of deals,
but they were all very They all felt very kind
of strategic and small. But you know, you could sort
of track how this would change the prospects for the
or the the outlook for this team a little bit,
but you know, not necessarily. It wasn't like an indication
(06:49):
that they were just pushing all their chips in. And
I think maybe that's part of the landscape of the
you know, more playoff spots, is that teams maybe are
not thinking, well, we have to either go all in
sell that we can just make these moves on the
margins and you know, maybe give ourselves like a ten
percent better chance to make the playoffs.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Well, so, yeah, I mean there's a couple of things
about that too, Like on on the one side, I
think give a team like the Phillies, where you know,
if you look at the Phillies, you're like, well, and
I know I've done as well lately, But if you
look at the roster, you're like, well, what is of
the Dodgers too, It's like, well, what big impact player
are they necessarily going to get that's going to make
(07:29):
them so much better that you're like, okay, wow, like
I see it, like this player is really going to
just add so much to to what the team does.
And you know, the flip side of it is like
the Orioles, like everybody else could have used a marquee
starting pitcher, but if Dree Scuba wasn't available, who was
the best picture out there?
Speaker 1 (07:50):
It was? It was probably Flairty, right, it was probably Flaherty.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
You know, again, assuming Snell is a villa, it's probably Flaherty,
who's good and he's having a really good year. But
but again, he's not somebody I feel you give up
a ton for where you know what I'm saying, like,
he's spot I don't want to knock you know, Jack Flower,
he's goods.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
It's just hard to It's not the kind of picture
that you really want to go all in for because
the track record has been so spotty before this year.
But yeah, and now I think was was available, but
his season has just been so weird that you know,
I do wonder And I texted this year like, I
(08:31):
was very curious what kind of offers the Giants were
getting because you know, he's got a he's got a
big contract, but it's a you know, it's a two
year with an opt out after this year. And then
he had a terrible start, you know, injured. Obviously the
ramp up was slow because he signed so late, but
(08:54):
that in the last you know, three four starts, he's
been absolutely lights out. So it's really hard to know
what you're going to get, even though you know Snell
is generally a better second half picture. So yeah, it's
pretty interesting.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Well there's the other Yeah, there's the only thing two
about Snell, which is that it was sort of would
be a no win for the team acquiring him because
if he does stink or get hurt and you trade
prospects for him, you're stuck with him next year, right
where it's like, okay, so we trade these prospects and
we're on the hook for the money, you know, putting
aside what the Giants might.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Have paid or not paid.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
And if he's great and goes out, you know, yes,
I know, flags fly forever. Same with the podcast. Maybe
he you know, gets you deep in the playoffs, but
if he's great and you give up prospects, he'll be gone.
He'll be like, Okay, well I'm gonna really cash it now.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
And so whether you said you had a couple, oh.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Those those were the two. Yeah, so I could certainly
make more, but.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Well we'll get you know, we'll just kind of wind
our way through the the observations. The one thing that
we've been talking about, and I don't want to make
this about our our main event team, so I'm going
to generalize this conversation, but it does come out of
our the situation we find ourselves in with respect to
(10:19):
saves and closers, and I think probably a lot of
teams are, a lot of managers, Fantasy managers are in
a similar situation where you're at a point in the
season where maybe you've had, you know, two marginal closers
or you know us closers who have the job, but
(10:41):
one of them maybe has lost it recently. Jose Alvarado
and you're at kind of an inflection point about how
to approach saves right now. This is for us. It's like,
we can compete in our own fifteen team league without
(11:04):
you know, at our current level of saves where I think, like,
I don't know, we've got We're like twelveth or something,
but we're at the bottom of a fairly large cluster.
But you know, we could gain if we did, you know,
acquire one closer, we could actually make some ground and
gain a few points, which would help us in the overall.
So putting all that aside, we and you sort of
(11:28):
mentioned a few different ways to approach this, okay, So
I'm kind of repackaging what you said into a few
different strategies here. If you are sort of in a
borderline position with saves, right, do you just weekly chase
saves on these bad unsettled teams, Like do you put
(11:49):
in for I mean, I would say the White Sox,
but that's just you obviously, do not try to chase
saves in the White Sox bullpen. But say I don't
know a Victor Vodnik or whoever's filling in for Mason
Miller in Oakland or Miami, right, with Tanner Scott being traded.
So you've got some fairly bad teams who have saves
(12:11):
for the taking, but we don't know who's gonna get
the bulk of those. Okay, So that's option one. Option
two is you try to buy into a possible committee
on a good team, like the Dodgers are the one
that comes to mind for me right now. It's possible
Phillips is Phillip's healthy. He's healthy, right, he's just been.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, he's healthy, just hasn't been very back. Yeah,
you know.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
So do you try to think committee like this is
a two person committee, but it's on a good team.
So maybe I can get the the B pitcher, like
maybe not the A pitcher, the B pitcher and eke
out like five to seven saves the rest of the year.
Or do you and I'm not I'm actually leaving a
(12:58):
side punting the category completely, which is I guess an option.
But do you get reliable setup guys? You get like
an eighth inning guy and the name that you know
we were looking at was like Jennie your Cano or
Griffin Jacks or someone like that who is pretty clearly
the next in line and is the high leverage eighth
(13:21):
inning pitcher but is behind a really solid closer, so
or and then four option four just completely dump all
your relievers and just go all in on starters. What
are your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Oh my god, I mean there's so many thoughts like
I could like this is I do love talking strategy
like this. Well really, so try to keep continue generalizing
this so we don't turn this into a thing about
our specific team. It obviously depends on like where you're
at the category.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Well, let's start with the one.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Like if you're like something about our main event team,
I know, I just do specifics. So we're like low
on fab, like relatively low. Now now there's teams finally,
like you know, passing us down toward the bottom, but
we're still relatively low on FAB. And it's not a
zero dollar minimum league, so there is a limitation like
(14:22):
in a league with zero dollar FAB or waivers. I
think that you can be much more comfortable just plugging
away every week and like you know what, I'll just
take a I'll just take a reliever and on a
team that has like let's say an eight game schedule
because of a double header, and I'll take the second
I'll take the best reliever out there. I'll hope that
reliever gets to save, and I'll do that every week
(14:44):
and maybe I'll you know, i won't get to save
every week, but maybe I'll get three or four saves
on top of the one closer that I have for
the rest of the year.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
I should also point out that that's the.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Thing too, Like we still have a closer in this
scenario that John's talking about, Like we have Fairbanks.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Who we thought would get traded.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
But yeah, I really thought he would get traded.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
And it's funny we picked up Robert Garcia because I
really thought Kyle Finnegan would get traded and he didn't.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Like that's just the way it goes.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
So really, some of this depends on your fab your needs,
Like like if you're strong in a lot of the
categories and you just just need to shore up saves,
then sure, Like if you want to put in an
aggressive bid this weekend on you know, Hunter Strickland or
whoever you like in the Marlins Bullpen, go do it.
Or Victor Vodnik if you like Vodnick. I mean, it's
(15:33):
sort of funny, like I just pulled up the last
like thirty days, and Vondnik has four saves like he
it's like a save a week, which doesn't sound like much,
but that's like a twenty five Yeah, yeah, it's like
about a twenty five save pace, which maybe he won't
do that. But if you can get that from any reliever,
that's that's awesome, Like you're golden. So that's and it
(15:58):
als spends your league too, right, because the shallower leagues
or leagues that aren't ast competitive, they are going to
be second tier closers out there. They might not be
the most appealing relievers, but they're going to be there
for you for the taking. But if that's not an option,
I think that's more common, then it really sort of
becomes a question like, well can you afford to keep
(16:22):
plugging away with that second reliever. And I think some
of the conversation too ties into your other categories, because
if you're already kind of middle of the packetyran whip
or worse, and they're like, well, just adding a Miles
Michaelis for example, or a low level free agent or
plucking someone off of your reserve list and going with
(16:43):
eight starters in one reliever is more palatable, then if
you're in a dogfighting iran whip and you're like, well,
I can't really just plug any starter into that slot,
like there's an opportunity costs there. So yeah, I think
what's really tough about it, too, is if you're at
the bottom of a clump like we are, you probably
do It might not sound like a lot, but you
(17:05):
probably do want to chase those four or five saves.
Something funny I didn't realize, like, is that Pete Fairbanks
over the last thirty days has seven saves.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
I would not have certainly did not realize.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
I would not have guessed that, like I would have
guessed he had like three or four. Like I would
have been like, okay, like he's been fine, but he's
not really getting the saves. And some of it is
like gess, I think I even fall into the myth
of the rays of like oh, they they mix up
their relievers. It's like no, not for saves, like no,
not really. They use historically when they have a great
reliever or closer great really like Fairbanks, they use them
(17:39):
as a closer. It's when they don't have that reliever
is when they kind of mix a match and get creative. Yeah,
so I don't know answer your question like it's really
it's hard to answer because there are just so many
different ways that you can go.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Well, talk a little bit about the option of just
going after Jennier Cano or a Griffin Jacks or a
picture like that. Who's because this is this is the
maybe if you if the ratios are, if you're tight
with other teams in ratios, then getting a picture that's
(18:15):
more reliable, you know, it could be the way to go.
And if for some reason that closer loses their job
or gets injured, you've almost certainly lucked into a closer
for however long you know, the season, whatever's left of
the season. And it's also I guess an advantage from
(18:36):
the point of view if you are short on fab
that you go out and you get one of these guys,
then you just sort of you don't think about chasing
saves on a tweak basis.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Well, well you hit You hit upon both things too,
which is that there's there's two ways to do this
and one way is you know you mentioned Cano, is
to try to pick a reliable setup behind a reliever
that you might that might be shaky, like like you
always hear about how Craig Kimbrall is going to lose
his job and he doesn't lose his job, that doesn't
mean he won't though, Like it's certainly a possibility. So
(19:09):
you could go out and pick him up, or you
could go out and pick up aj Puck or Kevin
Ginkel on the Diamondbacks Paul Sewald, I mean, though he's
been saving games, has been shaky, Like I'm not going
to rattle through every reliever who's been like shaky. But
that's that's one way, right. You can look at a
reliever where you're like, okay, like this this guy's had
(19:30):
a bad week, he's had a bad month, Like maybe
the team will switch even if it's not permanent, and
I can get a week or two of saves. But
then the other option kind of goes into the concept of, well,
maybe I just go for the quality reliever, like like
maybe I pick up Kate Smith, for example, who is
not going to get saves, like even if there's an
(19:52):
injury problem, will get saves. But Kate Smith has been
lights out the last month. He's got a couple of
wins because he's on a really good team. He gets
the strikeouts like the era is low.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
You know.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Cole Sands is another example on the Twins, Like it's
just the idea that you pick up a Dentis Santana.
On the Pirates, you just go with the quality reliever,
and you're like, well, this is not a saves play,
this isn't everything else play, Like this is a rate
stats play, the strikeouts play, and maybe I pick up
a straight winner, a save or two. Maybe I don't.
(20:24):
I mean, David Robertson is if he's available. I know
in some leagues he's taken, Like I think he's taken
about a fifth of CBS leagues. Another great example of
that kind of reliever, right, like Kirby Yates is clearly
the closer, but Robertson last month has a win, he
has a save, he has eleven strikeouts per nine. He's
a one to seventy or a Son.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Robertson, I guess is sorry, interrupid. He's took a slightly
different example because he is that that eighth fitting guy
who if Yates goes down, he's likely to write to
step in for the saves, and he's doing really well
with ratios and striker.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
And yeah, yeate, that's another way to go to Yates
as great as he's been, has an injury history, and like,
even if he stays healthy, the Raiders might look at
him and go, well, like, let's start to split things
up a little bit, you know, in the last month,
or you know, just to keep Yates healthy, just to
keep him fresh, we might make the playoffs. I mean
they might not, but you know, their path looks like
(21:18):
the division, not the wild card. But yeah, so I
think a lot of it just depends on your situation.
But you know, I've pounded my desk about this for years,
which is Relievers in terms of what they offer in
non save categories is very underrated. And I think even
in a format like the main event, it's probably slightly underrated.
(21:39):
Like I know saves matter in the overall, but really here,
like if you're talking I think I might be talking
myself into this, by the way, I'm talking us into this.
If you're talking about our best option being Hunter Strickland
or whoever we think you know, the guy in the
Marlins is going to be and those are the best
closers because I think Vondik is gone. Like, you know,
(22:02):
that's the thing about the main It's competitive enough I'm
pretty sure he's gone. So really, barring an injury between
now and Sunday, yeah, we might be better off taking
the guy with the right stats and being like, you
know what, let's just take the quality reliever. Let's keep
going with seven starters. Let's go with Fairbanks and hope
(22:23):
that he, you know, has another month or two like
he just had where he saves like ten to twelve
games and kind of see what happens about. So another
important thing too about all this in terms of context
is looking at the other teams in your league.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
And I know the sounds like also.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Boilerplate, but this does really matter. Like in the clump
we're in, for example, if everybody ahead of us had
two closers, I'd be like, well, it doesn't really make
sense to really even bother trying to get the maybe closer.
But if there's teams that also have one closer or
have none, I think there's actually a team in that
clump ahead of us that doesn't have any for whatever reason,
(23:00):
then it's like, okay, well we might as well run
Fairbanks out there nothing else, because it's it's still a
free point.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Yeah, and I'm actually looking the flip side of that is,
and I said, we wouldn't make it about our team,
but we're making it about our team.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
I'm also thinking, man, I wish we had taken Kyle
Fittigan and instead of Alvarado. But you know what's what's
tough is.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
Is that the team behind us, they're eight behind us,
Like you said, we're at the bottom of the clump,
and there's a pretty big gap. And then there's another
five saves to the next team beyond there so, and
then the team behind us has Kirby Eates, so they
have one nailed on closer, and then they're trying to
play it with Shelby Miller, right, so you know one.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Who could who could be the the co closer there
He and Folly have two saves apiece in the last month.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
But I think it's it's still likely that even if
we plugged away with just Fairbanks, that that team would
not catch us, right. So sure, it's almost like there's
nothing to lose.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
By just running Fairbanks out there, right right right? That
that's the argument. I really the tricky thing there is
the idea of like.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Well, but it doesn't help us. The overall could be Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Well, I think to be honest, we were probably not
going to get into any of the money positions.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
It would be great.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
I just don't I don't see it. You know, it
would be great. I'm sorry to burst the collective bubble there.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
We don't have to get to thirty five. We have been,
we've been, we're.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Hunting it, we're heading in the right direction.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
But I think in terms of the overall we're already
in moral victories territory.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
I think you're right.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
I wish I wish it weren't so.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
But yeah, but if you know, if we do get
into the money our league, that that allows us to
to you know, sort of repeat this experiment next year, for.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
To run it, to run it back, to run it back.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
And you know, with another year with a year of wisdom,
not Patrick wisdom, and uh, you know, a free a
free role basically, So wouldn't be the worst thing.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
I get it would be did you have something else
about like trade you want to talk about?
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Because we we certainly could go on and on.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
About a closers, but I know for some people that's
a that's a topic where they're like.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Uh, I guess, yeah, not I guess. The only other
observation that I had, which I think is probably, like
you said, a boilerplate one. Is that the one the
one thing that I think I've seen some players get
excited about a player being traded. So let's use like
(25:58):
Jesse Winker as an ample who was playing every day
in Washington traded to the Mets, a contending team, a
better team, a better offense. But Jesse Waker is not
playing every day. He's not even really starting against every
(26:20):
right handed pitcher, so I guess I would also, I
think Tommy Edmund when he gets healthy, is going to
play most every day. But the Dodgers are also a
team because they are you know, they're obviously they're going
to make the playoffs, but they might be battling for
(26:40):
you know, seating, or you know, they might be I mean,
I think the division is not really in question, but
they're going to mix a match. They got Ahmed Rosario
as well, so I'm interested. I'm more interested maybe in
the bad teams who got players that might get an
everyday role, like Miguel Vargas, Okay, obviously only a deep
(27:04):
league player.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
I feel like I feel like you're you read my column, like, wow,
that's that's nice.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
Did you write about. I'm so sorry, Mike, I didn't
read your car.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
I didn't just write about Vargas, like I wrote a
whole thing about players like this, and like, yeah, Vargas,
Vargas was the guy like highlighted because yeah, it's sort
of the idea.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
He hasn't done much lately.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
I'm just glad that I could read your mind.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
I feel like, yeah, well so what I what I
did is I kind of so So there were there
were three pieces and two of them were by Nathan Grimm,
and it was like a part one and part two
of the Contenders and you know, the players they got
and he used what we've used for years, which is
the arrow up arrow down method, and I more looked.
(27:53):
I just broke it down by team and I was like, okay,
like this is what happened in some cases, like you know,
I did the Rockies, I did Victor Vodnik and there
wasn't much to write about. But yeah, for teams like
the White Sox and the Rays and a few others,
I was like, okay, well there's actual like opportunity here,
like all enough. Not so much with the Rays because
of all the annoying platoons and so much. I did
(28:16):
mention like, you know, it would be awesome given that
They're like, actually, I want to let's go.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Back to real life for a second.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
I want to talk a little bit bit about the Rays,
and I know in the past this is.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Not going to be here we go.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Actually, I want to say that for the way they operate,
this kind of was the right move. And the more
I look at them, the more I'm like, well, they
still kept a lot of the players, Like they kept Fairbanks,
that kept low, they kept a lot of the players
who were their core players. They didn't really give up
so much that I'm like, okay, well they kept Diaz.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Well they kept enough players that I'm like, you know what,
it's not They're not. They didn't do it.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
The Marlins did, like the Marlins, I think, and they
were pretty open about when they traded Luisa Rise, like
a while back, They're like, well, we're not going anywhere.
It's going to be a long time before we're contending.
We're you know, kind of fixing what the regime to
you know, two regimes ago did It's going to be
a while. Like the Marlins openly said, yeah, we are
(29:17):
loading up on prospects because we know we're starting over.
I don't think that's what the Rays really did. I
think the Rays were like strategically looking at like, well,
like these are the players where that we think, knowing
our system, we can upgrade on and we can rebuild
and we can bounce back. I still don't like their
overall methodology, but I'm saying in terms of how they operate,
(29:39):
I kind of look at what they did, I'm like,
this actually is fine.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
They didn't really give anyone up where it's like, oh man,
this is really going to cost them next year.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
You don't think that about a Rosarina. No.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
I think he's I mean, it hurts him a little bit.
He's probably the closest of all that. But I think
I think within their system they can replace.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Him, hm hmm.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
I also I also think.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
They finally have kind of started spending money, Like Zach
Efflin Is wasn't the old school like super cheap player,
Like they did spend some money on him. And the
other thing is the more I look at it, the
more and this isn't just like recency biases. If he
hit two home runs, I do dig the the morrel
parade swap. I think that Morel's been a little bit
(30:25):
unlucky with Babbitt this year, and I also think that
the Rays are the kind of team that's going to
maximize what Christopher Morrell can do.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think Morel is just
someone with you know, off the charts talent, you know,
skills and talent, and you know, the strikeouts get him.
But you're you're right, like he's he and you know,
I think he's he's a darling of the Rates and
Barrels podcast because of his ex velocities and yeah, the Ray,
(30:58):
the Rays and parade, I think it had kind of
maxed out, like he did some thing really well, and
he did it well for a couple of years. But
you know, I don't I don't know that you're going
to see another you know, thirty homer season from East
ok Peredes.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
I will say though, that this is the thing about
the Rays, and this is why I brought them up,
like I I hope the last two months because they're
I know, they're so close to Wildcard race, but because
of the signals that for this year that they're presumably
not going for it, that they do some interesting things
that they let Josh Low play against some left handers.
(31:38):
And I'm not just saying that we're self interested, Like
and they let Curtis Mead, who I don't have any
of my team, so it's not self interest. I hope
they let him play a little bit more like. I
hope they do some things where it's like, Okay, let's
let's figure out what we have here for for next year.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
Yeah, yeah, call op junior Cameronaro.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Yeah, he's got Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
And and Richie pelasios Is he sounds like he's heading
to the IL, so that gives him even sort of
more runway with with Low and some other players be like,
you know what, let's let's let's kind of like let's
try this. Let's let's let's max these players out as
opposed to you know, you know it's a Giants fan.
Let's put everybody into an incremental platoon job share everyone
(32:23):
but three players, sorry, John, everyone but three players are valuable.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
We made it, I mean, with the absent the odd
Blake Snell reference, we made it through without mentioning the Giants.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
So are you are you happy? Well?
Speaker 2 (32:39):
I was gonna say, are you are you happy that?
Did you see the Grant Brisbee joke about Mark Counta.
I thought that was it. It was great.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
He said something.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Oh you know what, it's like, I'm gonna find it
because Grant Grant is funny enough.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
I'm not sure he just not listen to us.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
If you do listen to us, Grant, you're You're probably
one of the things about Twitter. I missed our people
on Twitter. I miss the most.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
Can you bring your talents to Blue Sky Grant?
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Yeah, oh my god, yeah, I only I hoped. I
hoped Twitter crashed the Birds just so we have to
see Grants. So he tweeted, I thought Mark Cotta had
been on the Giants for the last three years. Cobb
of t pH, He's not wrong, right, No, that's sort
of like, I mean, like the perfect Giant Giant, Like
(33:26):
he's the kind of guy where I mean he's ostensibly
a platoon player, which is bad for him because he's
going to play against lefties primarily. But it's not difficult
to see the Giants completely optimizing and maximizing him, and
at the end of the year he'll be like, oh
my god, like he his numbers of the Giants were great,
and yet somehow, because it's Mark.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
He's going to do it.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
Darren Roffe.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
Yeah, because Mark Conna, They're gonna be like, Okay, Like
that's fine.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
It's very true. When when when I learned that he
had been traded to the Giants, I thought, oh, you
know some players you can't imagine in a different uniform.
And I'm like, oh, God, Mark Cannon a Giants forum
that seems incredibly natural.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Well, if anything, what's really weird is he's with the Tigers,
and I had that rustion we tell us all the
Tigers like, this doesn't look right, Like he clearly just
looks like he's here because he had to be here
because it was the best offer he could get. And
I'm not begrudging Connor the Tigers. I was like, yeah,
he doesn't really doesn't feel like he should be a Tiger.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Yeah, all right, Well we've we've made it to the
Mark kind of phase of the podcast, and that can
only mean one thing, Mike.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah, that we go down into the next rug of players. Though,
I think this means that we're going to close out
before we start talking about.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Money that we're gonna do.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
I have I have fifteen minutes. I have a tight
fifteen on the Jorge Hilari trade. So just buckle up.
I'm gonna I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Okay, I couldn't actually be here, so all right, let's uh,
let's take a breath and we'll close out. Thank you
(35:27):
once again for listening to episode three fourteen of Flags
Fly Forever, a fantasy baseball baseball perspectives podcast. We will
be back probably in a couple of weeks, i'd say,
with more content, So please come back when we're back
for Mike Janell and John Hagelin. Thank you very much,
and we'll be talking to you soon.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
Rate Review, Go white Bots, good night and m
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