March 12, 2024 • 28 mins
Olympic gymnast Mary Sanders shares her journey of reinvention and the lessons she has learned from the different phases of her life. Drawing from the stories in her new book, 9 Lives by 35: An Olympic Gymnast’s Inspiring Story of Reinvention, Mary discusses the importance of not getting stuck in one identity, imploring people to be in constant pursuit of personal growth. She opens up about the challenges she faced, including the loss of her father when she was eight, and how these experiences shaped her into who she is today.
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(00:10):
Hello and welcome back to FranklinCovey's twice weekly podcast,
On Leadership with Scott Miller. That'sme. I'm your host and interviewer.
Every week, twice weekly,on Tuesdays and Fridays,
we tape and release episodes usingFranklinCovey's megawatt spotlight
as the world's most trusted leadershipfirm with a global footprint helping
organizations and individuals aroundthe world create better cultures,
(00:34):
how to build the beststrengths of leadership,
how to instill the behaviors ofhigh trust leaders throughout their
organization.
I'm privileged to be able to also takethat spotlight and turn it on to people
that are thought leaders both inside ourcompany and outside of the firm that we
think can help make you a betterleader, a better entrepreneur,
a better solopreneur, a betterparent, friend, colleague,
(00:57):
or just a great contributor tosociety where all of us are trying to
identify and accomplish ourown great purposes. Today,
I'm fortunate to shine thisspotlight on to an Olympic athlete,
and she corrected me in the bookor she corrected the reader.
She is not a former Olympian. Once youare Olympian, you are always an Olympian.
I loved this book by Mary Sanders.
(01:19):
It's called 9 Lives by 35:
An Olympic Gymnast's Inspiring Story
of Reinvention. Mary Sanders,welcome to On Leadership.
Thank you. Thank you so much, Scott,for having me. Quite an honor.
So do you ever wear all those medals atonce that are in all those cases behind
(01:40):
you, and do you stand up straight?
Tell us a little bit about yourjourney as an Olympic gymnast.
Remind us about someof the pivots you made,
and I think you have a very unrelatablejourney with lots of relatable
lessons in life, and we'regoing to explore what it means to have 9 Lives by 35.
Walk us through your journey first,
talk a little bit about what's going onbehind you for those of us who may be
(02:03):
watching on camera or listening by audio.
Thank you. Well, yeah,
every night I put them on and just remindmyself of all my accomplishments. No,
I'm totally kidding. Actually,
I had all these medals from my gymnasticscareer just in a box up until Covid,
I think even at my mom'splace. And then Covid hits us.
(02:25):
We're all at home and it's like, whatare we going to do with our time?
So it was actually a gift from my familyand they kind of decorated my office,
so it was very nice of them,a little bit of a shrine,
but it's a good conversation starter. Sothat's where all those medals are from.
And yeah, I started, I was born agymnast. My father was my coach,
(02:45):
my mentor, my everything, my idol.
And I was literally born doingflips and twists and splits,
and I continued doing artistic gymnastics,which is with the bars and the beam,
the Simone Biles sport, right upuntil I was around eight years old.
And I was okay. I had to work veryhard. I wasn't naturally talented.
(03:08):
I was always a bit ofan underdog, very tall.
I wasn't as muscular as I should havebeen, so I did all right in the sport.
Unfortunately, my father passed awayfrom cancer when I was eight years old,
so that was a big shift in my life,
probably the biggest traumaticexperience of my life at that point.
And he was not just my father, he wasmy coach and my idol and my everything.
(03:31):
So at that point,
that was the first time in my life Ireally had to reinvent myself and do a
major shift. So I actuallyswitched to rhythmic gymnastics,
which is with the ribbonsand the balls and the hoops,
and I always explain itas the Will Ferrell sport,
if you've seen the movie OldSchool. So I switched to that sport.
It just better suited my body type, and it
(03:55):
kind of got me to where I am today,
even though I really didn'twant to make the switch.
And I thought my father would roll overin his grave and I'd never become his
little Olympian as a rhythmic gymnast,
but turns out it was better suitedfor me. And I did make the Olympics.
I did compete for USA atthe 2004 Athens Olympics in
Greece. So many ups anddowns, many twists and turns,
(04:20):
single mother raising three kids,
working very hard to get meto achieve my Olympic dream.
There was many obstacles in the way.
I had to switch from competing fromfor Canada to compet for the U.S. I was
labeled a traitor among the way. Switchingcountries wasn't so common back then.
It just better suited myfamily's needs financially.
(04:42):
My father was a U.S. gymnast. Iwas following in his footsteps,
doing what's best for me,
but of course not everyone is going tobe happy for decisions you make in life.
And that was a lesson I learnedpretty early on in my life as an early
athlete and gymnast in my career.
I think we have to make decisionsfor ourselves that's best for us,
even if it doesn't make everyoneelse happy. So competed in Athens.
(05:07):
I competed on my 19th birthday, so thatwas a good way to celebrate my birthday,
and that was kind of the end ofmy athletic gymnastics career.
Mary, let's talk a bit more about thatbecause living in Salt Lake City, Utah,
where we have hosted the Olympics andlikely will again in the not so distant
future, there are a lot of Olympians,former Olympians, current Olympians.
I happen to know a few becauseof our time in Park City,
(05:30):
Utah and remind everyone the
difficulty of pivoting out of being a
aspiring accomplished Olympianbecause some people pivot well,
they can monetize their successand their brand in other areas.
Some go back to living very normal lives.
Some don't have skills outside of theirsport and have to figure out what am I
(05:53):
going to do to support myself?Talk a little bit about what,
like to transition out ofthat sole all-consuming
trajectory having won or loss,
because you've done a remarkablejob of reinventing yourself.
We're going to talk about the lives you'vehad and how people can identify their
own lives.
Any lessons that you would teach fromhow you invented yourself several times
(06:16):
into a very successful entrepreneur,entertainer, businesswoman.
Take that wherever you'd like to go.
What happens when you stepdown from Athens and fly home?
It's a really great question, Scott,and it's partially why I wrote the book.
I think there is thissort of silent society,
and it's a hard one for athletesor anyone who's achieved a lot of
(06:40):
success early on in lifeto find the next step,
to find their next passion and directionin life. It's extremely difficult.
And myself, like many other Olympians,
I'm sure that devote theirvery first part of their
life, their childhood, and their teensto their sport. And that's what I did.
(07:00):
I lived and breathed gymnastics.My father was my coach,
and literally I was born doinggymnastics, and that was it.
So when I achieved whatthe goal was, the Olympics,
I was so happy. I finally felt like, okay,
I can be normal now.
I can not focus on gymnastics completely,
(07:22):
and I still have nightmares to thisday where I'm competing at the world
championships and I didn't makethe Olympics. And it's like, well,
now what do I do? I can't even imagineif I didn't even compete at the Olympics,
how my life would've changed.
And I know there's a lot of athletesout there that maybe didn't peak at the
right time and didn't make the Olympics,
and I think transitioning fromthat into society is even harder.
(07:43):
I was blessed enough that I didgo and compete at the Olympics.
I didn't win the gold. Iwasn't the fan favorite.
Rhythmic gymnastics is aneastern European dominated sport.
So I did finish in 15th,
which was the highest placing ofany North American at that time,
but it didn't get me any Nikesponsorships or anything like that.
So I had a long road ahead of me.
(08:04):
I was set to go to university,
be normal and get a bachelor's of artsdegree and figure out what to do with my
life.
But something in the back ofmy mind just knew I wasn't
ready for that. I still wanted todo more and perform and use my body.
So I was lucky enough thatCirque du Soleil scouted me.
(08:25):
They watched me compete in Athens.They saw me on tour afterwards,
and they scouted me to work for thatand be in one of their touring shows.
So I was lucky to compete at theOlympics and have a bit of a buffer into
society and into the workingworld, getting paid per show,
having an income, being onthe road, expenses paid.
So I had a nice buffer into theworking society in that way.
(08:49):
A lot of athletes don't have that.They can compete at the Olympics,
win the gold, and then just that's it.
And then the next day you're no longera swimmer or whatever, you're just,
you're done. And if you haven'tthought ahead of time, what's next?
It is extremely shocking to the system.
(09:09):
And then there's the athletes maybelike myself who don't win the gold,
but they did compete at the Olympics,
but then they come home andthere's no next step and it's
really mentally draining andit can be very depressing.
I did go through a bit of depressionand anxiety even at Cirque du Soleil
because you're this whole identity.I'm a gymnast and now I'm in Cirque,
(09:32):
but I'm still Mary Sanders theOlympian, but no one cares.
And I think I realized earlyon it's like no one cares.
You have to do what you haveto do. You have to work hard.
There's no shortcuts in life.
You just have to have this constantforward momentum attitude and figure out
what the next step is. Don'tput your eggs all in one basket.
(09:53):
And I hope that's something I can helpathletes or anyone transitioning in
life is we need to have this constantforward momentum and not put all our
eggs in one basket. And that'ssomething I've tried to do constantly.
I've had this jobworking in entertainment,
but I also have many other avenues thatI enjoy and have passions in and that
(10:14):
have also turned into careers. SoI think it is a bit of a stigma,
this transitioning from sportor a very high level success
into a normal society, it can giveyou a lot of anxiety and depression,
and I think we just need more tools tohelp people make those transitions and
reinvent their life. In my book, Iend each chapter with the Three Rs,
(10:37):
and it's something that asI've reflected on my life,
really helped me get out of that slum,
that depression and just not evenwanting to get out of bed that day.
So asking yourself everymorning, what is your reason?
Why am I getting out of bed today? Andif you're not excited to get out of bed,
you need to find something that'll makeyou excited and that is to reinvent your
(10:58):
life or reinvent yourself that day.
Do something you would'venever done normally that day.
I think that's a reason toreinvent yourself and get excited to get out of bed.
And then knowing you're right,your right to do all those things,
to change your trajectory in life andreally just find something you love to do.
No matter if everyone thinks you'recrazy and it's a horrible idea,
I think it's just find what makes youexcited in life and just go for it.
(11:23):
With three young sons whoare kicking my ass every day,
sometimes it is champagne thatis my reason to exist that day.
Mimosa, known as a mimosa in themorning time. Not on workdays,
just on Mondays through Sundays.Your journey is wholly unrelatable,
but your pivots, your reinvention,
(11:44):
your stamina is relatable. I'd likeyou to teach us for the school teacher,
for the project manager, for theCOO, for the school superintendent,
whoever it is out there, the digitaldesigner that's having difficulty.
Perhaps they came off a high, maybe theyhad a downsizing or they were fired,
or they need to reinvent their skills.
(12:05):
Will you teach us some of the lessonsthat you espouse in 9 Lives by
35? Just take a generic audience and say,
these are some of the things peoplecan use to motivate themselves to
reinvent themselves regardless of wherethey are in their career or their life.
I went from Cirque du Soleilto becoming a recruiter.
(12:30):
I recruited all kindsof people into different
industries, into financeand all this stuff.
The most random transitionyou can imagine, I've done it.
And I knew coming out of CirqueSoleil, I worked for them for 10 years.
I didn't want to be seven yearsold and still in cloud makeup,
so I knew I had tofigure out what was next.
(12:52):
So I think if you're on theedge, on the end of something,
a career or a path before endingthat start thinking of the next
path, I think what's harder is when youquit or you get fired, then you're like,
oh my God, what's next? But if you havea little bit of a buffer to fall onto,
I think that really helps. In Cirquedu Soleil, I studied public relations,
(13:14):
so I knew, okay, if I got reallyinjured or this was just done tomorrow,
I'll go into public relationsor I'll go into that path.
So had a bit of a buffer,something to fall back on.
I know that's really hard to do whenyou're really head down in a career and
you're like, this is my everything.
But I always think a backup plan orsomething small to fall back on is helpful
(13:36):
in those drastic or ever-changingtimes. So in leaving Cirque,
I went into the corporate world and Imean, I started from the bottom, bottom,
bottom sales, job, recruitmentjob. And it was humbling, right?
You go to the Olympics and you goto Cirque du Soleil, I am on stage,
10 shows a week standing ovations.Then it's like I'm at a desk,
no one cares, and you're like one ina million doing this little sales job.
(14:01):
But I just knew to get ahead,I just have to work hard.
And I think that's another thing iswhen you're making a big transition,
you can't get discouragedand you have to work hard.
Even if you're starting somethingtotally from the bottom,
you work hard and you humbleyourself and you just go forward,
constant forward momentum.And that's what I did.
(14:21):
And eventually I recruited myself intothe job I've been in for the last 10
years, working alongside oneof the sharks from Shark Tank,
Robert Herjavec and fromDragon's Den in Canada.
And it was just a fluke moment.
And I think following yourgut is huge in those moments.
Why is this chapter of my lifeending? There's a reason for it.
(14:42):
And you got to just take sometime to reflect and be like, oh,
it ended because I'm not supposed to bethere anymore. And be positive about it.
Don't be so sad and depressedabout that chapter ending.
Be excited about the next chapter.
So being depressed in my recruitmentjob actually got me to my 10-year
career now, and it was just randomly, Isent my resume as I saw a job posting.
(15:04):
I was recruiting EAs forbig CEOs at the time,
and I just randomly sent my resume,
didn't even know who RobertHerjavec was at the time,
and I got the job and it wasjust this fluke gut moment
that I knew I had to send my resume andI had never sent my resume for a job
that I was supposed to be hiring someonefor. So it's these fluke moments.
(15:24):
Follow your gut and have somethingto fall back on and just try and
celebrate when one chaptercloses what could be next.
I think that's very important.
I love the fact that you recruitedyourself for the job that you are in.
I think it's just a greatmindset for people to have.
You may have to recruit yourselfinto the job that you need.
(15:45):
You've lived your life,obviously very publicly,
somewhat from a distance as a Cirquedu Soleil artist and performer,
as an Olympic athlete. We see you on TV,
we see you on the competingstage, if you will,
and then you decide to write thisextraordinarily vulnerable book about your
mom's marriages, your upbringing,your father's passing,
(16:06):
your own somewhat tumultuousrelationships with partners and such.
Your finances, your reinvention.I mean, you've talked very openly.
Was that easy? Was that difficult?
What was your why for thereason to choose to write a
very vulnerable book that I thinkwill give voice to everybody
(16:27):
who reads it, whether they are a maleor female or an Olympic athlete or not,
you kind of give peoplepermission to own their successes,
own their failures. Why didyou choose to be so vulnerable?
Thank you. It wasn't easy. That'sthe number one answer there.
I had many versions of mymemoir, the first version,
(16:50):
I think you could call it verysurface. My whole life I've been,
when the going gets tough, thetough get going, hard shell.
It's the only way to make it asa gymnast, at least in my day.
So being vulnerable, being emotional,didn't come naturally to me.
So in writing it the first time, Ican say I didn't dive deep enough.
(17:12):
It took a lot of time to peel back layers.
I literally had amnesia from alot of experiences in my life,
from my marriages failing mymom's, my gymnastics career,
some abuse I went through. Iliterally just blocked it all out.
I think a lot of people do,whether you're an athlete or not,
I think we go through traumas or we gothrough certain things in life and we
(17:35):
block them out. But those thingsdo shape us into who we are today.
And I never really was wanting togo to therapy or anything like that.
And this book was extremelytherapeutic for me,
and it helped me understand myself more.
And I think it helped peoplearound me understand me more.
I know people from differentphases and lives of my life.
(17:58):
I know gymnasts, I know acrobats,I know entertainment people.
So no one understood the full Mary.
And I think that was a biginspiration for me to write it,
especially having two kids of my own now.
I wanted them tounderstand their full mom.
And I just think, yeah, it was extremelyhard. And I still wake up today like,
oh, what did I do?
(18:20):
Why did I write this and why didI divulge everything about myself?
But like you said, Scott,
I don't just want to appeal toathletes or to females or I want
to appeal to everyonethat our past is our past.
It doesn't define our future.
And as cliche and everyonesays that it's very true
(18:41):
becoming Olympian. That'sgreat, that's wonderful,
but I want to be so much morethan that and I'm not perfect.
And I think on the outside maybe peopleportray me as that or trying to be
perfect, and it's absolutely not true.
I've made many mistakeswhich you can read about,
and I think all those mistakes is whatreally teaches you and gets you to where
(19:03):
you are today. And I thinkall of us can relate to that.
We're trying to be thebest person we can be,
but we have a lot of failures alongthe way, and I definitely did.
And I've seen a lot,I've experienced a lot,
and I just want peopleto know it'll be okay.
And I think now I'mhappiest I've ever been,
but I have been through alot to get to this point.
And there is light on the other side.
(19:25):
Mary,
I'm curious naturally about thisidea of thinking of your own
life in stages of different
lives. We're all goingto have different lives,
and I never really thought aboutthat until I read your book. I'm 55,
I feel like I've kind of had twolives before marriage and kids and
(19:47):
after marriage and kids. I wasmarried later in life, 41. I'm now 55.
And your book title is 9 Lives by 35.
What have you learned from thenine lives that you've led?
Maybe you want to tellus what some of them are,
but what I want the conversation tobenefit our listeners is through you
reminding us and teaching us why it'svaluable to recognize we have different
(20:12):
lives. We have some that arepast, we have some that we're in,
we have more that arecoming. We may not know yet.
Take that wherever you'd like it to goso that our listeners can right now be
thinking about how many lives havethey had, how many will they have,
what's next? What to expect, whatto prepare for? Riff on that.
I think I learned in a way
(20:35):
I was stuck on this gymnast,
I'm an Olympian life for avery long time and it wasn't
helping me move the ballforward. If I was just,
I'm married and I'm an Olympianand that's enough in life.
How am I going to pay my bills?How am I going to move forward?
(20:55):
And I think it's great thatathletes, they go to the Olympics,
they have so much success,
but if you get stuck inone phase of your life,
you're never going to evolve.
And I don't think you're going to liveto your potential. So being married,
the Olympian, working atCirque du Soleil 10 years,
I was really stuck in this identityof that, but that's enough. That's me.
(21:17):
And then when I got out of crc,
having Mary Olympian on my resumeshould get me where I want to go,
and it didn't at all. I hadto start from the bottom.
I really had to hammer down my publicrelations education and I had to start
from the bottom.
And having different lives is veryhumbling because you do have to close one
chapter, you got to open anotherone and start from the bottom again.
(21:39):
And I think if you're ableto humble yourself and you are able to start from the
bottom again, you learnso much along the way.
And I've been blessed tohave an incredible mentor in Robert Herjavec for the
last 10 years. Literally,
I feel like I have a business degreenow because I've worked alongside one of
the most successfulentrepreneurs of all time. And
(22:02):
it is just really that something healways says that resonates with me is all
life owes you as an opportunity.No one owes you anything.
You are not going to get anyfavors. You got to work hard.
And that's the only thing that'sgoing to propel you forward.
And I think it does help to lookat your life in different chapters,
in different phases. My ninelives, they're so different,
(22:24):
but it got me to where I am today andnow I'm really clear on where I want to
go. I'm very clear on mygoals and where I want to go.
And I think acknowledging all thedifferent chapters and why I did that,
what brought me here and all of thatreally helps me see a much clearer future
now.
So I think perhaps that is a bit ofa key is let's look at our life in
(22:44):
stages, why those stages happened,why those ups and downs happened.
Where am I right now? Am I in a bitof a down and I in a trajectory up?
We're in a bit of a down.We've got to reinvent.
We've got to figure out how we'regoing to get ourselves back up.
And that might be humbling,starting from the bottom.
Follow your gut in a career paththat you would never think you would
do. Write that book, I don't know,
(23:07):
do whatever that you've wanted todo for a long time, but you haven't.
Just make that decision to do it thatday and it might take you somewhere.
I think taking risks and following yourgut is the key to a successful future
and having many different trajectories,not putting all our eggs in one basket,
and I think that'll help you evolveand have many different lives.
(23:29):
Mary, I want to finish with I think areally valuable question because you are
uniquely qualified to address this,
and this is about the roleparents and caregivers give,
the advice they give into theiryoung children that have a
latent, an obsessed, a middlelevel passion for a sport.
You mentioned your dad wasa very accomplished athlete.
He was your coach andyour mentor in gymnastics.
(23:51):
He passed tragically fromcancer at the age of eight.
You write about that story inyour book. It was quite tender,
especially having a son whowas nine, my youngest, myself.
I was just envisioning what that meetingwould look like when my wife called
them together and the phonerang. It was very tender.
You've written a beautiful book. I highly,
highly recommend people read this book.
(24:11):
I have no natural interestin Olympics or gymnastics per
se. I've interviewed several,
but I found your book to be agreat parenting book. Interesting.
I want you to give adviceto all the parents,
like my wife and I that have three youngboys. They're all obsessed with tennis,
and we're going bankrupt over tennislessons and tennis camps and tennis,
(24:33):
you name it. My tennis bill islarger than my mortgage right now.
I hear you.
What advice do you giveparents to calibrate,
to recognize when is ittheir child's decision?
How do you tease out the life lessons?
How do you know when to go all inbecause they want to go all in,
but recognize that very few people aregoing to end up being an NBA star or get
(24:53):
a D1 college scholarship.
Just what advice would you give tocaregivers and parents around making sure
that all the time and effortand energy is healthy for your
child?
Yeah, it's been worth it.No, that's a great question.
Obviously I was born intothe sport of gymnastics.
I was called a little Olympian from birth,
(25:13):
so I was destined to be a gymnast.
And whether that's healthy or notfor a child, I'm not sure. For me,
it worked out. It wasa very difficult road,
lot of ups and downs. I can't sayI'd wish my life on my daughter.
I have a son and a daughter.
I can't say I want her to go through whatI went through to get to the Olympics,
(25:34):
to be honest.
And also having a singlemother and three kids,
I think my aspiration withthe Olympics and everything
that costed and all the trips to Europe,everything took a toll on my brothers.
So it's an interesting conversation.
I have a lot of friendswho asked me the same, oh,
is your daughter going to go to theOlympics or is your son going to be a
(25:56):
gymnast and go to the Olympics?
And they are both enrolled ingymnastics today. I'm not going to lie.
My son's in artistic and my daughter'sin artistic and rhythmic once a week.
I don't have them going five times aweek or anything. But I think as parents,
we do instill a little bitof our own goals on them.
We want them to succeed. We want themto follow in our footsteps per se.
(26:20):
In a certain aspect, I think aslong as the child has the passion.
So Scott, if your kids are like,I can't wait to go to tennis,
I want to go play more. Ithink as parents, we've got to support them in that.
And I think it's very hardthough financially nowadays,
more so than when I was a gymnast.It is so expensive, sports,
(26:42):
and we want to give our kidseverything. We want to see them succeed.
But the financial burden on theparents is, it's extraordinary now.
And I mean,
the odds of becoming the next RogerFederer or the next Simone Biles are quite
low. I don't think we needto look at it like, oh,
are they going to be firstplace at the Olympics?
I think we need to look at it as probablythis sport is going to teach them
(27:04):
things that I could never teach themand that school could never teach them.
And it's that discipline.
And I think even if I nevermade the Olympics or anything,
I would still have beenmolded in a certain way that I am today to be extremely
hardworking because of sport, notbecause I had to study on this exam,
or I think sport teaches children so much,
(27:25):
and I think it keeps them out of trouble.
And so as long as yourkids have that passion,
I think it's the best thingyou could ever do for them.
Mary, you are a class act.
I am very impressed with all of youraccomplishments in life. Thank you.
But I'm more impressedwith your resilience, your tenacity, your determinism,
your grit, your will to be fearless,
(27:48):
to reinvent yourself,
to take the humility of movingfrom the Olympics at Athens,
and to become a recruiter that yourecruited your own self into the job,
that now you are partnered with oneof the most iconic entrepreneurs.
You are an inspiration to everybody whois listening and watching that feels
(28:08):
like, you know what? MaybeI need a reinvention.
Maybe it's time for me to pivot andpivot into something that I can't see or
even know about right now.
I highly recommend the lessonsin your very vulnerable book,
9 Lives by 35:
An Olympic Gymnast's Inspiring Story of
Reinvention. Mary Sanders,thanks for your time today.
(28:28):
Thank you so much for havingme. I really appreciate it.
And we'll see you back here next weekfor a new conversation On Leadership.
Hello and welcome back to FranklinCovey's twice weekly podcast,
On Leadership with Scott Miller. That'sme. I'm your host and interviewer.
Every week, twice weekly,on Tuesdays and Fridays,
we tape and release episodes usingFranklinCovey's megawatt spotlight
as the world's most trusted leadershipfirm with a global footprint helping
organizations and individuals aroundthe world create better cultures,
(00:34):
how to build the beststrengths of leadership,
how to instill the behaviors ofhigh trust leaders throughout their
organization.
I'm privileged to be able to also takethat spotlight and turn it on to people
that are thought leaders both inside ourcompany and outside of the firm that we
think can help make you a betterleader, a better entrepreneur,
a better solopreneur, a betterparent, friend, colleague,
(00:57):
or just a great contributor tosociety where all of us are trying to
identify and accomplish ourown great purposes. Today,
I'm fortunate to shine thisspotlight on to an Olympic athlete,
and she corrected me in the bookor she corrected the reader.
She is not a former Olympian. Once youare Olympian, you are always an Olympian.
I loved this book by Mary Sanders.
(01:19):
It's called 9 Lives by 35:
An Olympic Gymnast's Inspiring Story
of Reinvention. Mary Sanders,welcome to On Leadership.
Thank you. Thank you so much, Scott,for having me. Quite an honor.
So do you ever wear all those medals atonce that are in all those cases behind
(01:40):
you, and do you stand up straight?
Tell us a little bit about yourjourney as an Olympic gymnast.
Remind us about someof the pivots you made,
and I think you have a very unrelatablejourney with lots of relatable
lessons in life, and we'regoing to explore what it means to have 9 Lives by 35.
Walk us through your journey first,
talk a little bit about what's going onbehind you for those of us who may be
(02:03):
watching on camera or listening by audio.
Thank you. Well, yeah,
every night I put them on and just remindmyself of all my accomplishments. No,
I'm totally kidding. Actually,
I had all these medals from my gymnasticscareer just in a box up until Covid,
I think even at my mom'splace. And then Covid hits us.
(02:25):
We're all at home and it's like, whatare we going to do with our time?
So it was actually a gift from my familyand they kind of decorated my office,
so it was very nice of them,a little bit of a shrine,
but it's a good conversation starter. Sothat's where all those medals are from.
And yeah, I started, I was born agymnast. My father was my coach,
(02:45):
my mentor, my everything, my idol.
And I was literally born doingflips and twists and splits,
and I continued doing artistic gymnastics,which is with the bars and the beam,
the Simone Biles sport, right upuntil I was around eight years old.
And I was okay. I had to work veryhard. I wasn't naturally talented.
(03:08):
I was always a bit ofan underdog, very tall.
I wasn't as muscular as I should havebeen, so I did all right in the sport.
Unfortunately, my father passed awayfrom cancer when I was eight years old,
so that was a big shift in my life,
probably the biggest traumaticexperience of my life at that point.
And he was not just my father, he wasmy coach and my idol and my everything.
(03:31):
So at that point,
that was the first time in my life Ireally had to reinvent myself and do a
major shift. So I actuallyswitched to rhythmic gymnastics,
which is with the ribbonsand the balls and the hoops,
and I always explain itas the Will Ferrell sport,
if you've seen the movie OldSchool. So I switched to that sport.
It just better suited my body type, and it
(03:55):
kind of got me to where I am today,
even though I really didn'twant to make the switch.
And I thought my father would roll overin his grave and I'd never become his
little Olympian as a rhythmic gymnast,
but turns out it was better suitedfor me. And I did make the Olympics.
I did compete for USA atthe 2004 Athens Olympics in
Greece. So many ups anddowns, many twists and turns,
(04:20):
single mother raising three kids,
working very hard to get meto achieve my Olympic dream.
There was many obstacles in the way.
I had to switch from competing fromfor Canada to compet for the U.S. I was
labeled a traitor among the way. Switchingcountries wasn't so common back then.
It just better suited myfamily's needs financially.
(04:42):
My father was a U.S. gymnast. Iwas following in his footsteps,
doing what's best for me,
but of course not everyone is going tobe happy for decisions you make in life.
And that was a lesson I learnedpretty early on in my life as an early
athlete and gymnast in my career.
I think we have to make decisionsfor ourselves that's best for us,
even if it doesn't make everyoneelse happy. So competed in Athens.
(05:07):
I competed on my 19th birthday, so thatwas a good way to celebrate my birthday,
and that was kind of the end ofmy athletic gymnastics career.
Mary, let's talk a bit more about thatbecause living in Salt Lake City, Utah,
where we have hosted the Olympics andlikely will again in the not so distant
future, there are a lot of Olympians,former Olympians, current Olympians.
I happen to know a few becauseof our time in Park City,
(05:30):
Utah and remind everyone the
difficulty of pivoting out of being a
aspiring accomplished Olympianbecause some people pivot well,
they can monetize their successand their brand in other areas.
Some go back to living very normal lives.
Some don't have skills outside of theirsport and have to figure out what am I
(05:53):
going to do to support myself?Talk a little bit about what,
like to transition out ofthat sole all-consuming
trajectory having won or loss,
because you've done a remarkablejob of reinventing yourself.
We're going to talk about the lives you'vehad and how people can identify their
own lives.
Any lessons that you would teach fromhow you invented yourself several times
(06:16):
into a very successful entrepreneur,entertainer, businesswoman.
Take that wherever you'd like to go.
What happens when you stepdown from Athens and fly home?
It's a really great question, Scott,and it's partially why I wrote the book.
I think there is thissort of silent society,
and it's a hard one for athletesor anyone who's achieved a lot of
(06:40):
success early on in lifeto find the next step,
to find their next passion and directionin life. It's extremely difficult.
And myself, like many other Olympians,
I'm sure that devote theirvery first part of their
life, their childhood, and their teensto their sport. And that's what I did.
(07:00):
I lived and breathed gymnastics.My father was my coach,
and literally I was born doinggymnastics, and that was it.
So when I achieved whatthe goal was, the Olympics,
I was so happy. I finally felt like, okay,
I can be normal now.
I can not focus on gymnastics completely,
(07:22):
and I still have nightmares to thisday where I'm competing at the world
championships and I didn't makethe Olympics. And it's like, well,
now what do I do? I can't even imagineif I didn't even compete at the Olympics,
how my life would've changed.
And I know there's a lot of athletesout there that maybe didn't peak at the
right time and didn't make the Olympics,
and I think transitioning fromthat into society is even harder.
(07:43):
I was blessed enough that I didgo and compete at the Olympics.
I didn't win the gold. Iwasn't the fan favorite.
Rhythmic gymnastics is aneastern European dominated sport.
So I did finish in 15th,
which was the highest placing ofany North American at that time,
but it didn't get me any Nikesponsorships or anything like that.
So I had a long road ahead of me.
(08:04):
I was set to go to university,
be normal and get a bachelor's of artsdegree and figure out what to do with my
life.
But something in the back ofmy mind just knew I wasn't
ready for that. I still wanted todo more and perform and use my body.
So I was lucky enough thatCirque du Soleil scouted me.
(08:25):
They watched me compete in Athens.They saw me on tour afterwards,
and they scouted me to work for thatand be in one of their touring shows.
So I was lucky to compete at theOlympics and have a bit of a buffer into
society and into the workingworld, getting paid per show,
having an income, being onthe road, expenses paid.
So I had a nice buffer into theworking society in that way.
(08:49):
A lot of athletes don't have that.They can compete at the Olympics,
win the gold, and then just that's it.
And then the next day you're no longera swimmer or whatever, you're just,
you're done. And if you haven'tthought ahead of time, what's next?
It is extremely shocking to the system.
(09:09):
And then there's the athletes maybelike myself who don't win the gold,
but they did compete at the Olympics,
but then they come home andthere's no next step and it's
really mentally draining andit can be very depressing.
I did go through a bit of depressionand anxiety even at Cirque du Soleil
because you're this whole identity.I'm a gymnast and now I'm in Cirque,
(09:32):
but I'm still Mary Sanders theOlympian, but no one cares.
And I think I realized earlyon it's like no one cares.
You have to do what you haveto do. You have to work hard.
There's no shortcuts in life.
You just have to have this constantforward momentum attitude and figure out
what the next step is. Don'tput your eggs all in one basket.
(09:53):
And I hope that's something I can helpathletes or anyone transitioning in
life is we need to have this constantforward momentum and not put all our
eggs in one basket. And that'ssomething I've tried to do constantly.
I've had this jobworking in entertainment,
but I also have many other avenues thatI enjoy and have passions in and that
(10:14):
have also turned into careers. SoI think it is a bit of a stigma,
this transitioning from sportor a very high level success
into a normal society, it can giveyou a lot of anxiety and depression,
and I think we just need more tools tohelp people make those transitions and
reinvent their life. In my book, Iend each chapter with the Three Rs,
(10:37):
and it's something that asI've reflected on my life,
really helped me get out of that slum,
that depression and just not evenwanting to get out of bed that day.
So asking yourself everymorning, what is your reason?
Why am I getting out of bed today? Andif you're not excited to get out of bed,
you need to find something that'll makeyou excited and that is to reinvent your
(10:58):
life or reinvent yourself that day.
Do something you would'venever done normally that day.
I think that's a reason toreinvent yourself and get excited to get out of bed.
And then knowing you're right,your right to do all those things,
to change your trajectory in life andreally just find something you love to do.
No matter if everyone thinks you'recrazy and it's a horrible idea,
I think it's just find what makes youexcited in life and just go for it.
(11:23):
With three young sons whoare kicking my ass every day,
sometimes it is champagne thatis my reason to exist that day.
Mimosa, known as a mimosa in themorning time. Not on workdays,
just on Mondays through Sundays.Your journey is wholly unrelatable,
but your pivots, your reinvention,
(11:44):
your stamina is relatable. I'd likeyou to teach us for the school teacher,
for the project manager, for theCOO, for the school superintendent,
whoever it is out there, the digitaldesigner that's having difficulty.
Perhaps they came off a high, maybe theyhad a downsizing or they were fired,
or they need to reinvent their skills.
(12:05):
Will you teach us some of the lessonsthat you espouse in 9 Lives by
35? Just take a generic audience and say,
these are some of the things peoplecan use to motivate themselves to
reinvent themselves regardless of wherethey are in their career or their life.
I went from Cirque du Soleilto becoming a recruiter.
(12:30):
I recruited all kindsof people into different
industries, into financeand all this stuff.
The most random transitionyou can imagine, I've done it.
And I knew coming out of CirqueSoleil, I worked for them for 10 years.
I didn't want to be seven yearsold and still in cloud makeup,
so I knew I had tofigure out what was next.
(12:52):
So I think if you're on theedge, on the end of something,
a career or a path before endingthat start thinking of the next
path, I think what's harder is when youquit or you get fired, then you're like,
oh my God, what's next? But if you havea little bit of a buffer to fall onto,
I think that really helps. In Cirquedu Soleil, I studied public relations,
(13:14):
so I knew, okay, if I got reallyinjured or this was just done tomorrow,
I'll go into public relationsor I'll go into that path.
So had a bit of a buffer,something to fall back on.
I know that's really hard to do whenyou're really head down in a career and
you're like, this is my everything.
But I always think a backup plan orsomething small to fall back on is helpful
(13:36):
in those drastic or ever-changingtimes. So in leaving Cirque,
I went into the corporate world and Imean, I started from the bottom, bottom,
bottom sales, job, recruitmentjob. And it was humbling, right?
You go to the Olympics and you goto Cirque du Soleil, I am on stage,
10 shows a week standing ovations.Then it's like I'm at a desk,
no one cares, and you're like one ina million doing this little sales job.
(14:01):
But I just knew to get ahead,I just have to work hard.
And I think that's another thing iswhen you're making a big transition,
you can't get discouragedand you have to work hard.
Even if you're starting somethingtotally from the bottom,
you work hard and you humbleyourself and you just go forward,
constant forward momentum.And that's what I did.
(14:21):
And eventually I recruited myself intothe job I've been in for the last 10
years, working alongside oneof the sharks from Shark Tank,
Robert Herjavec and fromDragon's Den in Canada.
And it was just a fluke moment.
And I think following yourgut is huge in those moments.
Why is this chapter of my lifeending? There's a reason for it.
(14:42):
And you got to just take sometime to reflect and be like, oh,
it ended because I'm not supposed to bethere anymore. And be positive about it.
Don't be so sad and depressedabout that chapter ending.
Be excited about the next chapter.
So being depressed in my recruitmentjob actually got me to my 10-year
career now, and it was just randomly, Isent my resume as I saw a job posting.
(15:04):
I was recruiting EAs forbig CEOs at the time,
and I just randomly sent my resume,
didn't even know who RobertHerjavec was at the time,
and I got the job and it wasjust this fluke gut moment
that I knew I had to send my resume andI had never sent my resume for a job
that I was supposed to be hiring someonefor. So it's these fluke moments.
(15:24):
Follow your gut and have somethingto fall back on and just try and
celebrate when one chaptercloses what could be next.
I think that's very important.
I love the fact that you recruitedyourself for the job that you are in.
I think it's just a greatmindset for people to have.
You may have to recruit yourselfinto the job that you need.
(15:45):
You've lived your life,obviously very publicly,
somewhat from a distance as a Cirquedu Soleil artist and performer,
as an Olympic athlete. We see you on TV,
we see you on the competingstage, if you will,
and then you decide to write thisextraordinarily vulnerable book about your
mom's marriages, your upbringing,your father's passing,
(16:06):
your own somewhat tumultuousrelationships with partners and such.
Your finances, your reinvention.I mean, you've talked very openly.
Was that easy? Was that difficult?
What was your why for thereason to choose to write a
very vulnerable book that I thinkwill give voice to everybody
(16:27):
who reads it, whether they are a maleor female or an Olympic athlete or not,
you kind of give peoplepermission to own their successes,
own their failures. Why didyou choose to be so vulnerable?
Thank you. It wasn't easy. That'sthe number one answer there.
I had many versions of mymemoir, the first version,
(16:50):
I think you could call it verysurface. My whole life I've been,
when the going gets tough, thetough get going, hard shell.
It's the only way to make it asa gymnast, at least in my day.
So being vulnerable, being emotional,didn't come naturally to me.
So in writing it the first time, Ican say I didn't dive deep enough.
(17:12):
It took a lot of time to peel back layers.
I literally had amnesia from alot of experiences in my life,
from my marriages failing mymom's, my gymnastics career,
some abuse I went through. Iliterally just blocked it all out.
I think a lot of people do,whether you're an athlete or not,
I think we go through traumas or we gothrough certain things in life and we
(17:35):
block them out. But those thingsdo shape us into who we are today.
And I never really was wanting togo to therapy or anything like that.
And this book was extremelytherapeutic for me,
and it helped me understand myself more.
And I think it helped peoplearound me understand me more.
I know people from differentphases and lives of my life.
(17:58):
I know gymnasts, I know acrobats,I know entertainment people.
So no one understood the full Mary.
And I think that was a biginspiration for me to write it,
especially having two kids of my own now.
I wanted them tounderstand their full mom.
And I just think, yeah, it was extremelyhard. And I still wake up today like,
oh, what did I do?
(18:20):
Why did I write this and why didI divulge everything about myself?
But like you said, Scott,
I don't just want to appeal toathletes or to females or I want
to appeal to everyonethat our past is our past.
It doesn't define our future.
And as cliche and everyonesays that it's very true
(18:41):
becoming Olympian. That'sgreat, that's wonderful,
but I want to be so much morethan that and I'm not perfect.
And I think on the outside maybe peopleportray me as that or trying to be
perfect, and it's absolutely not true.
I've made many mistakeswhich you can read about,
and I think all those mistakes is whatreally teaches you and gets you to where
(19:03):
you are today. And I thinkall of us can relate to that.
We're trying to be thebest person we can be,
but we have a lot of failures alongthe way, and I definitely did.
And I've seen a lot,I've experienced a lot,
and I just want peopleto know it'll be okay.
And I think now I'mhappiest I've ever been,
but I have been through alot to get to this point.
And there is light on the other side.
(19:25):
Mary,
I'm curious naturally about thisidea of thinking of your own
life in stages of different
lives. We're all goingto have different lives,
and I never really thought aboutthat until I read your book. I'm 55,
I feel like I've kind of had twolives before marriage and kids and
(19:47):
after marriage and kids. I wasmarried later in life, 41. I'm now 55.
And your book title is 9 Lives by 35.
What have you learned from thenine lives that you've led?
Maybe you want to tellus what some of them are,
but what I want the conversation tobenefit our listeners is through you
reminding us and teaching us why it'svaluable to recognize we have different
(20:12):
lives. We have some that arepast, we have some that we're in,
we have more that arecoming. We may not know yet.
Take that wherever you'd like it to goso that our listeners can right now be
thinking about how many lives havethey had, how many will they have,
what's next? What to expect, whatto prepare for? Riff on that.
I think I learned in a way
(20:35):
I was stuck on this gymnast,
I'm an Olympian life for avery long time and it wasn't
helping me move the ballforward. If I was just,
I'm married and I'm an Olympianand that's enough in life.
How am I going to pay my bills?How am I going to move forward?
(20:55):
And I think it's great thatathletes, they go to the Olympics,
they have so much success,
but if you get stuck inone phase of your life,
you're never going to evolve.
And I don't think you're going to liveto your potential. So being married,
the Olympian, working atCirque du Soleil 10 years,
I was really stuck in this identityof that, but that's enough. That's me.
(21:17):
And then when I got out of crc,
having Mary Olympian on my resumeshould get me where I want to go,
and it didn't at all. I hadto start from the bottom.
I really had to hammer down my publicrelations education and I had to start
from the bottom.
And having different lives is veryhumbling because you do have to close one
chapter, you got to open anotherone and start from the bottom again.
(21:39):
And I think if you're ableto humble yourself and you are able to start from the
bottom again, you learnso much along the way.
And I've been blessed tohave an incredible mentor in Robert Herjavec for the
last 10 years. Literally,
I feel like I have a business degreenow because I've worked alongside one of
the most successfulentrepreneurs of all time. And
(22:02):
it is just really that something healways says that resonates with me is all
life owes you as an opportunity.No one owes you anything.
You are not going to get anyfavors. You got to work hard.
And that's the only thing that'sgoing to propel you forward.
And I think it does help to lookat your life in different chapters,
in different phases. My ninelives, they're so different,
(22:24):
but it got me to where I am today andnow I'm really clear on where I want to
go. I'm very clear on mygoals and where I want to go.
And I think acknowledging all thedifferent chapters and why I did that,
what brought me here and all of thatreally helps me see a much clearer future
now.
So I think perhaps that is a bit ofa key is let's look at our life in
(22:44):
stages, why those stages happened,why those ups and downs happened.
Where am I right now? Am I in a bitof a down and I in a trajectory up?
We're in a bit of a down.We've got to reinvent.
We've got to figure out how we'regoing to get ourselves back up.
And that might be humbling,starting from the bottom.
Follow your gut in a career paththat you would never think you would
do. Write that book, I don't know,
(23:07):
do whatever that you've wanted todo for a long time, but you haven't.
Just make that decision to do it thatday and it might take you somewhere.
I think taking risks and following yourgut is the key to a successful future
and having many different trajectories,not putting all our eggs in one basket,
and I think that'll help you evolveand have many different lives.
(23:29):
Mary, I want to finish with I think areally valuable question because you are
uniquely qualified to address this,
and this is about the roleparents and caregivers give,
the advice they give into theiryoung children that have a
latent, an obsessed, a middlelevel passion for a sport.
You mentioned your dad wasa very accomplished athlete.
He was your coach andyour mentor in gymnastics.
(23:51):
He passed tragically fromcancer at the age of eight.
You write about that story inyour book. It was quite tender,
especially having a son whowas nine, my youngest, myself.
I was just envisioning what that meetingwould look like when my wife called
them together and the phonerang. It was very tender.
You've written a beautiful book. I highly,
highly recommend people read this book.
(24:11):
I have no natural interestin Olympics or gymnastics per
se. I've interviewed several,
but I found your book to be agreat parenting book. Interesting.
I want you to give adviceto all the parents,
like my wife and I that have three youngboys. They're all obsessed with tennis,
and we're going bankrupt over tennislessons and tennis camps and tennis,
(24:33):
you name it. My tennis bill islarger than my mortgage right now.
I hear you.
What advice do you giveparents to calibrate,
to recognize when is ittheir child's decision?
How do you tease out the life lessons?
How do you know when to go all inbecause they want to go all in,
but recognize that very few people aregoing to end up being an NBA star or get
(24:53):
a D1 college scholarship.
Just what advice would you give tocaregivers and parents around making sure
that all the time and effortand energy is healthy for your
child?
Yeah, it's been worth it.No, that's a great question.
Obviously I was born intothe sport of gymnastics.
I was called a little Olympian from birth,
(25:13):
so I was destined to be a gymnast.
And whether that's healthy or notfor a child, I'm not sure. For me,
it worked out. It wasa very difficult road,
lot of ups and downs. I can't sayI'd wish my life on my daughter.
I have a son and a daughter.
I can't say I want her to go through whatI went through to get to the Olympics,
(25:34):
to be honest.
And also having a singlemother and three kids,
I think my aspiration withthe Olympics and everything
that costed and all the trips to Europe,everything took a toll on my brothers.
So it's an interesting conversation.
I have a lot of friendswho asked me the same, oh,
is your daughter going to go to theOlympics or is your son going to be a
(25:56):
gymnast and go to the Olympics?
And they are both enrolled ingymnastics today. I'm not going to lie.
My son's in artistic and my daughter'sin artistic and rhythmic once a week.
I don't have them going five times aweek or anything. But I think as parents,
we do instill a little bitof our own goals on them.
We want them to succeed. We want themto follow in our footsteps per se.
(26:20):
In a certain aspect, I think aslong as the child has the passion.
So Scott, if your kids are like,I can't wait to go to tennis,
I want to go play more. Ithink as parents, we've got to support them in that.
And I think it's very hardthough financially nowadays,
more so than when I was a gymnast.It is so expensive, sports,
(26:42):
and we want to give our kidseverything. We want to see them succeed.
But the financial burden on theparents is, it's extraordinary now.
And I mean,
the odds of becoming the next RogerFederer or the next Simone Biles are quite
low. I don't think we needto look at it like, oh,
are they going to be firstplace at the Olympics?
I think we need to look at it as probablythis sport is going to teach them
(27:04):
things that I could never teach themand that school could never teach them.
And it's that discipline.
And I think even if I nevermade the Olympics or anything,
I would still have beenmolded in a certain way that I am today to be extremely
hardworking because of sport, notbecause I had to study on this exam,
or I think sport teaches children so much,
(27:25):
and I think it keeps them out of trouble.
And so as long as yourkids have that passion,
I think it's the best thingyou could ever do for them.
Mary, you are a class act.
I am very impressed with all of youraccomplishments in life. Thank you.
But I'm more impressedwith your resilience, your tenacity, your determinism,
your grit, your will to be fearless,
(27:48):
to reinvent yourself,
to take the humility of movingfrom the Olympics at Athens,
and to become a recruiter that yourecruited your own self into the job,
that now you are partnered with oneof the most iconic entrepreneurs.
You are an inspiration to everybody whois listening and watching that feels
(28:08):
like, you know what? MaybeI need a reinvention.
Maybe it's time for me to pivot andpivot into something that I can't see or
even know about right now.
I highly recommend the lessonsin your very vulnerable book,
9 Lives by 35:
An Olympic Gymnast's Inspiring Story of
Reinvention. Mary Sanders,thanks for your time today.
(28:28):
Thank you so much for havingme. I really appreciate it.
And we'll see you back here next weekfor a new conversation On Leadership.
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