How to Understand Your Relationships: A conversation with the authors Meg-John Barker and Alex Iantaffi

Episode Transcript
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Alex Iantaffi (00:00):
Well hello and welcome to a very special

(00:03):
episode of Gender Stories. Iknow I've had a few episodes
with the fabulous Dr Meg-JohnBarker, and today it's a special
episode because we have a bookout 'How to Understand Your
Relationships'. And you alsocontributed, I know and if
you're on video, you can seeMeg-John showing you the book

(00:24):
with a beautiful cover by JulesScheele. I wish I could also
show you, but I haven't receivedmy copy yet, and we cannot show
you the fabulous cover, also of'Trans and Disabled', which I
edited and which team MJ has gota piece in as well. So welcome
Meg-John. It's so good to seeyou.

Meg-John Barker (00:44):
Oh so good to see you too. Thank you for
having us.

Yes. So we were like, we got a book out, and
then there's another book out.
We should do something. And sohere we are. I have to say, it's
been a really weird week for meliving in the so called United
States, to have two books out,and so I want to be really
transparent, as I usually am,and be like, Yeah, it feels like

(01:09):
I don't know. It just feels likeit's been such a heavy, heavy
week for a lot of minoritizedfolks, right? Trans folks,
immigrant folks, all the folksare getting targeted by the
current regime. But we also wantto make sure that people know
that the books are out and theyactually there might be a good
resource during this time. Yeah.

(01:32):
How are you doing about thisbooks being out? Or do you feel,

Oh, yes, I mean, similar. I feel like
these. I just, yeah, I wassaying to you, actually, before
we started recording, I've beenlooking back over our journals
and pictures and things. Andthere's the book of when our
first book together came out,how to understand your gender.
And there's that picture of uswith our book baby, and we're so
excited. And I guess, yeah,those first few books that came

(01:58):
out, we they really were kind ofcelebratory moments. And then
yeah, like, how to understandyour sexuality we did during
lockdown over zoom. And yeah, Iguess that one and this one have
a very different feel here,because we've been through this
kind of few years of PTSD, andalso the world has been going

(02:23):
through PTSD too. Can you saythat? Yeah. So it just feels
like a very different world,yeah. So it's not like, I guess
we feel Yeah, kind of, there's asort of balance, really. This is
maybe a sobriety. It feels likejust much more sober, like less
of a kind of high that we've gotsomething to celebrate, and more

(02:44):
of a sober which maybe fits thebook, you know, because again,
again, like, how to understandyour sexuality. I guess we're
talking Yes, about the pleasureof love and relationships, but
we're also talking a lot abouttrauma and marginalization. So
yeah, I kind of feel that it'sthat sort of feeling balanced in

(03:06):
a way, like I'm thinking ofinside out and those balls with
the joy and the sadness. Youknow, it's yes, yeah,

yeah. And I do, I do think it's a more than once
book. I think it's also morevulnerable book, like we really
poured a lot of ourselves inthis book and how to understand
your relationships and and I'mhoping to do a separate episode
for trans and disabled with asmany contributors as I can
gather, to have maybe a littleround table to discuss people's

(03:38):
contributions. So we're going tofocus on how to understand your
relationships at the moment. Butthere is also an anthology
called Trans and disabled, whichhas poems and short stories and
kind of essays so I hard,heartily, heartily said even a
world word enthusiasticallyrecommend the anthology, mostly

(04:02):
because even though I have onepiece in it, all these other
brilliant authors have pieces init, and I'm really looking
forward to seeing a physicalcopy.

Yeah, it's really, really good, and you
brought together such an amazingcrew of people. But yeah, like
you say, there's thatvulnerability of being so open
with these two books, you know.
I mean, we always have drawn onour own experience, you know,
with gender and sexuality,obviously, in the other two in
this series. But yeah, this one,really, we are just very open
about, yeah, how muchrelationship trauma that we

(04:36):
ourselves have carried, also thestruggles being neurodivergent
and having relationships. Yeah,I think these two books are the
first where we're talking aboutour autism and also our
plurality, like, very openly,yeah, being really open about
being disabled. So that's thatis quite a lot of vulnerability.

(04:57):
See, and maybe some new thingsto share, you know, things that
we've only uncovered in the lastfew years, maybe some of them,
and also, yeah, ones that feelgood, yeah, good to be able to
talk about. And also a bitvulnerable,

absolutely. And I think that's the, I think, in a
way, that's the strength of thebook. I don't want to be quite
conceded by talking about thestrength of our book, but I do
think that one of the things webring is this like mixture of
like scholarship, professionalexperience, also as therapists
and like our personalexperiences, right? That kind of

(05:36):
we weave all of those together.
And in a way, I don't know aboutyou, but there is like, so much
vulnerability in talking aboutrelationships, because, you
know, we don't do relationshipby ourselves. I know mind
blowing, right? Relationshipswith other people, and always
like, what if somebody else whoknows me is like, You're so full
of shit. This is my experienceof your relationship with you,

(05:56):
right? And there's always thiskind of, and I know that's
trauma too, right? Yeah, thisfear of like, oh, how is this
gonna land with people? Because,and we say that in the
introduction, yeah, we did,yeah.

I hope it helps that we're that open about it.
It's like, There's no way. Youknow, this is about as far from
the kind of glossy self helpbook by the person who says
they're an expert onrelationships, and they've been
married 30 years, and, you know,probably married 30 years, it's
about as far away from that bookas you could possibly can.

At least we're not saying,

but like you say, yeah, there's such a
vulnerability aboutrelationships. And we talk a lot
about ruptures and rifts andrelationships in the book, and
just how painful those are. Andagain, I feel like these last
few years, there's been so manymore, because everybody's trauma
has been, you know, up and,yeah, more uncovered and it is.

(06:54):
There's nothing really for usthat's sadder than that
territory, which, you know, wehave to deal with in the book.
And so, yeah, it's, it's alwaystough to know there's people out
there with stories about how youhurt them in relationship, and
that's part of it. That's partof what we're dealing with here,

yeah, and I think that's what it's beautiful about
the book. It's like, it's very,it feels like very radically
human and we're very clear thateven though, like we do have
what the world might callexpertise in air quotes in this
area, we're really approachingit as people who know like the

(07:35):
joy and pain of relationships,right? That it can be the most
wonderful, healing, beautifulthing to be in relationship with
one another and with theecosystem, and it can also be
the most heartbreaking, painfulthing, and all of it at the same
time, sometimes, and it'scomplex and that we are not, by

(07:56):
no stretch of the imagination,we have all the answers. It's
not one of those. It's like, askthe questions.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

But that's what I love about how we write books,
that it's not about we're givingyou the answers. It's like,
we're giving you the questions.
For me as a therapist, it feelsvery similar to what I do as a
therapist, in a way, I get to behere. I have some knowledge. I
get to ask questions, butultimately, yeah, you know,
people are the authors of theirown lives. They get to make
their own choices. They get tochoose their own values and

(08:27):
belief system and relationshipcontainers, and the kind of how
and with whom the one I engagein relationships and and that is
not something that you see oftenin relationship books, I'm
thinking about often it's like,here's how you do monogamy
really well. Here's how you donon monogamy, here's how you
parent. Here's about yourrelationship with the

(08:50):
environment. And I think what wetry to do is pretty ambitious,
because we're like, let's talkabout all relationships and how
we relate to ourselves and eachother and the ecosystem, and,
yeah, the ancestors andourselves as future ancestors
and all. When I look back, I'mlike, wow, yeah, that's a tall
order. Like,

I mean, I remember when we said we were
sort of thinking about this,and, you know, just for you. And
I didn't make any sense. Did itto write? We had to cover all
kinds of relationships, so wehad to throw the net that wide.
And, yeah, I think what we've itwas kind of helpful to have that

(09:36):
gender and sexualities booksfirst, wasn't it? Because we
kind of use the same format asfor those and I think that
really is, I don't think peoplewould necessarily think about
applying that to relationshipsthis kind of, how do I
understand where I've got towith my gender, with my
sexuality, like that makes a bitmore sense to people. How do I,
you know, kind of locate myselfwith gender and sexuality, and

(09:56):
how do I understand how myupbringing has influenced it and
my wider culture is in. Step andhow I want to do it, but
actually to have that blueprintand then apply it to
relationships gives somethingpretty unique as as does that
insistence that we had of likewe're not just going to deal
with romantic obviously, notjust romantic relationships, but
then also, not justrelationships with adults, then

(10:19):
also, not just humanrelationships, relationships
with other beings, and thenyeah, like, relationship with
community, relationship withculture, relationship with
ecosystem. Like, yeah, we had tokind of include all those
equally valid relationships aswell as the inner relationships.

And I love that, because, in a way, it's also a
declaration about challengingthis hierarchy, the dominant
culture tells us we should haveabout relationship, right? It's
like expressions like, you know,blood is thicker than water. You
know that somehow our family oforigin are kind of the most, the
most important relationship, butat the same time that a romantic

(10:57):
relationship should be the mostimportant relationships, right?
And right now we are seeing moreand more every day, the very
visible impact of climate crisisas well, and we do talk about
relationship with theenvironment and also how
relationship between adults aredifferent in terms of power
dynamics than something like aparenting relationship between,

(11:18):
you know, parent and child,because and how culture impacts
the way we look at all the waysin which we relate and and
there's something about at themoment, it seems to be really in
the air this topic, because DeanSpade, for example, has got a, I
think it's called Loving afucked up world this coming out
also about relationship. And I'mlike, that's great, because I

(11:40):
can't wait to read it. Yeah?
Hey,

Sophia, who wrote our forward, is writing,
you know, about relationships atthe moment. Mel Cassidy is doing
radical relating

yeah, book as well. There's quite

a lot of you know, they're actually all
really different, distinct booksthat do different things, and I
think underlying sort of ethicsand value is quite similar. So
yeah, I feel it's like people,hopefully, fairly soon, will
have a whole raft of stuff thatthey can go to. I mean, we try
to, you know, link to all theones we're aware of already in
this book. But yeah, it's greatto hear there's a few more

(12:19):
coming out along the slide.
Yeah,

I wasn't aware of like Dean's book when we were
writing this book back in summerof 2023 it was the first book
that we wrote in person togethersince the pandemic, if I'm
correct, and and that was anexperience too, because we had
gone through like the pandemicso many years of not seeing each
other physically, although,luckily, with that like, we were

(12:44):
able to have some kind ofconnecting in person time the
year before, but we weren'twriting for the first time since
we

tried some together. It was wild. It was
great. What do we do with time?

We swam in the pool, we ate delicious food, and
then we couldn't stop ourselvesfrom working. So we also, I
think, got our notebook out andstarted to plan some things, but
we might have to, yeah, and whatI love is that I think a lot of
us, who are educators, healers,community organizers, have been
really feeling like it is soimportant for us to be

(13:23):
intentional and clear about ourrelationship value, especially
at this moment in time, right?
Because capitalism colonialismare so, like, dehumanizing, and
when, yeah, you know, part ofdehumanization is also this,
like, the cracks and theraptures that that creates in
our relationships, and we dotalk about that in our book.

I think that's the framework of the book, in a
way, is this idea that we're sodisconnected on every level,
spiritual, cultural, you know,by capitalism, colonialism, then
relationally, you know, becauseof because people are being
brought up in families withinthat wider culture, and then
that means that we're verydisconnected internally, whether

(14:05):
that's a lot of repressing or alot of trauma kind of reactivity
going on. It's likedisconnection at every level. So
the book's really about, well,how on earth do we relate when
we are kind of disconnected atevery level. And also, how might
we reconnect, you know, also,how might we deal with what

(14:26):
those disconnections when theyhappen? But also, how might we
reconnect to any of thoselevels? But yeah, I agree. There
was, yeah, oh God, there's somany things I want to say, I
suppose, yeah, I was just like,I want to say how relational the
book was, and I also want to saysomething about how we'd gone in
such radically differentdirections in our own relating

(14:46):
when? So, yeah, I don't knowwhat to do. First,

go for it.
Whichever one comes out first,go for it. Well,

I suppose it was, you know, you were just
saying about, oh, the pandemic.
And you know, this was the firsttime we'd actually got together
to write for. A long time thatwasn't just online. And then,
yeah, like, as we were beginningto write it, we got this, like,
hang on a minute. Like, theselast few years, you've gone
like, way towards relationshipsand community, relationships
with other human beings andother beings and community and

(15:15):
your spirituality. And, yeah, Iknow you're really engaged with
relationship with land and wateras well and ancestors, and we'd
gone much more into thisinternal plural relationship
with selves, with or differentparts of the selves, or
different selves, whatever wayyou want to say that as and that

(15:35):
was very linked with ourspirituality as well. So yeah,
in some ways overlap, but insome ways radically different
approaches, in that, you know, Ias a whole are spending a lot of
time alone, and you werespending a lot of time in
community and with others, andwe felt like That was a, I guess
both the challenge and astrength, again, of the book,

(15:57):
right, is that we were able tohold via deal with that whole
gamut, from sort of very solorelating all the way through to
very embedded in communityrelating and everything in
between. Right?

Absolutely. And I'm thinking about even we had
our little like personal checkin sometimes. That's mom. I
don't know what is even timeanymore? And it was beautiful as
talking about how we had suchdifferent winter holidays, like
yours were very solo and minewere, like, full of people.

That's right, that's a stark difference. Like,
yeah, I didn't even see peopleChristmas or New Year, like, and
it was a spiritual retreat timefor that whole kind of time,
whereas you were, like,surrounded by, yeah, living with
loads

family of origin, queer family, family of family,
you know, and but it was reallyinteresting that when we were
talking like our emotional andinner experiences were very
similar, like the surface was sodifferent, But then when we dove
underneath, right, we weredealing with not so dissimilar
issues internally. And I thinkthat's a beautiful example, you

(17:09):
know, even though this happened,obviously once the book had
already been written. But Ithink it's a theme that you can
live very different lives, butkind of really grapple
internally with very similarissues. Well, it just

reminded me of that tweet I once saw that
somebody, I think a relationshiptherapist, had said that whether
you break up or stay togetherwith a partner, the work that
you need to do will be the same.
And it is kind of, you know, Idefinitely feel that along the
gamut of people I know in alldifferent kinds of
relationships, from the reallyqueer ones to really quite
normative ones, you know,different types of relationships
as well. It does feel, you know,or people who are dealing with

(17:48):
actual children and people whoare dealing with inner children
really similar, you know, like,there's a lot of, yeah, just
similar, similar stuff comes up,even when they look, you know,
pretty different. I just thinkit's so many different paths to
the same place, you know, butwhat we get churned up
internally will be pretty muchthe same whatever. Yeah,

(18:08):
exactly.

It's almost like we're all human and kind of
dealing with a lot of similarissues around like, you know,
belonging and how do we, like,care for one another without
abandoning ourselves. And how,you know, like, how do we see in
relationship when there'scompeting needs and and what a
lot about our book is that thereare all these tools that, no
matter if you are monogamous ornot monogamous, like you said,

(18:34):
whether you're a parent or not,whether you're ace or not,
whether you're kinky or not.
Hopefully, there is something inthe book for you to kind of
really reflect about, how do Irelate to, to myself, to the
ecosystem, to other people, andeven to the idea of
relationships themselves, right?
Like, even to the idea ofrelating.

Unknown (18:55):
And I hope that really takes the pressure off people
for like, you know, this ideathat there's a right way of
doing it. I know that for us,whenever we talk with you, or
yeah, all our friends are invery different relationship
structures and different livingsituations and different
communities just really helps tobe like, oh, there isn't a it's
so easy for people to thinkthere's a magic solution. You

(19:16):
know, whether it was looking forthe one perfect partner or the
one perfect way to dorelationships or the perfect
community, and, yeah, I thinkwe're really gently challenging
of that notion throughout thebook, but yeah, just hope it can
people can really feel thatsense of like all that is, is,

(19:37):
is kind of suffering to be inthis could I be doing it better?
Should I be doing it better? Youknow, am I doing the right way?
I think Yeah. Hopefully peoplecan get that sense from just
from how diverse and differentour ways of doing relationships
are, and the fact it does bringup the same stuff regardless,
you know.

And I think what I love about that, it's that
that inherently kind. Kind ofchallenges that more kind of
colonial, white supremacist wayof thinking of the right way,
right That, to me, feels likeand there's so much noise
nowadays. And don't get mewrong, there's also, like, some
beautiful, interesting things. Ifollow a lot of content creators
who talk about relationship, andthere's so much beautiful

(20:17):
content that I found personallyhelpful. And at the same time, I
also really see peoplestruggling with this idea of
what is right or what is wrongright, what is the right
relationship, what is the wrongrelationship? What is the right
way to communicate, what is thewrong way to communicate? And I
know as an anxious attacher ofmyself, I often struggle with
like I could do better. I couldbe better. Let me read just a

(20:40):
more relationship. Let me readjust one more research paper
about how we can dorelationships better. And I know
that my the most helpful is whenI can lie, yes, taking all the
information, taking all thetheories and research, but then
like, tune it all out and kindof come back to like ground and

(21:00):
to self and to just like to whatdo I know in my bones? What do I
What if I experience, and whatare my values? And how can I
align my values with my actions,which is so much more complex
than it sounds? And, yeah, doesthat make sense? I don't know if
you've seen people struggle withthat too. Like, yeah, I just

(21:22):
want to know the right way to dothis, or I think I'm the right
partner, yeah.

And then, you know, the danger is that that
gets imposed in relationships,you know. And we talk a lot in
the book about, yeah, how ourtrauma patterns connect out with
the people in relationship withor, you know, colonial ways of
doing, of relating, you know,can come out through us. And,
yeah, I feel like, again,something we stress in the book
is this more, this idea of fit,you know, and getting away from

(21:48):
right and wrong ways. And it'sactually, you know, how, how
does your neuro divergence work?
And how does mine and where'sour overlap there, and where are
the bits that are going to bechallenging? And then what kind
of relationship container mightwe have that enables us to have
a nourishing relationship,rather than this kind of almost
argument between, this is how myneuro divergence, does it? This

(22:10):
is how mine does, you know what?
Uh, yeah, what are myrelationship trauma patterns?
What's my cultural background?
And, you know, what's yours?
And, yeah, finding that overlapand being okay with the
difference, finding the way ofrelating, you know, also finding
when it's just not, you know,that's not a very good fit, but
it might be a good fit for somekind of relationship, you know.

(22:32):
But what's, you know, instead ofthis idea of like, this kind of
relationship, is how they shouldall look, and regardless of how
different or similar we are inthose kinds of ways we should,
you know, yeah, live togetherand have sex together, and all
these other things much morethis kind of conscious and
really open sharing, you know,with this idea of it's, there's

(22:52):
not a wrong and right here,there's how you work, this how I
work at the moment, which mightchange. And then, yeah, like, I
guess, you know, we do that allthe time, don't we? Like, sort
of finding our way, you know,with what kind of time together
can work, what kind of timeonline can work, whether we want
to be working on a project atthe moment or not. And I love,
you know, that there's just thispermission giving, of like, it's

(23:15):
about finding where the overlapis, you know, and what, yeah,
what's sort of mutuallynourishing, rather than some
sense of like, oh, because we'vegot this history, therefore we
should do it this way, orbecause this is the template of,
you know, writing collaborators,that somehow we should follow
that or something

exactly. And what I love is that, you know,
obviously we're not the firstpeople to talk about this much
bigger author than us, like BellHooks, have talked about, what
does love even mean, right? Andand what is love in but what I
love about our book is that wereally try to grapple with some
of those questions in practice,and what are some of the

(23:56):
practices and exercises andreflections that might help us
kind of be more aligned withwhat our values are. And even,
how do we uncover what ourvalues are? Because I think we
we live in a world that tellsus, like, you know,
relationships fall into thoseboxes, and this is how we do it,
right. And then also, this ishow you deal, you know, with

(24:18):
relationships that might belabeled toxics, toxic in air
quotes, and not to diminish,like, as somebody who is a
survivor, like, not to diminishthat there can be terrible abuse
that happens in all kind ofrelationship, but that also,
like, we can kind of take all ofthat into account and choose for

(24:40):
ourselves as adults. Of course,when we have that agency to be
like, those are what my valuesare. This is how I want to
relate to other humans. And partof that is that flexibility of
knowing that if you care for thepeople around you, that
relationship is going to change.
Like even as a parent, I don'thave this. In relationship with
my 21 year old than I had whenshe was five, or with my 14 year

(25:03):
old than I had when he was, likeeight years old, right? And, and
we are a great example of that.
We started as like colleagueswho moved very quickly. I mean,
colleagues in the field and outof the same institution were
like met at a conference. Youknow, we started with a romantic
relationship, and here we are.
It's gonna it was actually 20years of since we were meeting,

(25:26):
since we met, when we werewriting our book. Do you
remember that then we met injuly 2003 and we wrote the book
in july 2023, which was 20 yearsof our relationship, which I
would, I don't even know how tolabel, right? Because it's like

(25:47):
20 Well, in next July of thisyear, be 22 years, right?
Because it takes a minute to gofrom writing to publication. And
so yeah. And in this way,

beautiful, yeah, we were doing this book 20
year mark. And also it's thelast of that kind of series of
book that we did together aswell. So it's really meaningful.
And yeah, we, I think yeah, we,our relationship has shifted,
and changes changeddramatically. You know, it's got
closer and more distant atdifferent times. Yeah, I love
that about it, and I need thatabout it, or, you know, it feels

(26:22):
for us, you know, as clearlyjust essential, that things can
get closer and further apart,you know, if that's even the
right way to describe it, butit's much more like 345,
dimensional, right? But that onevery dimension shift and change
over time, and actually theclosest relationships are the
ones that can do that. Because Ithink you feel safe enough and

(26:44):
you've built trust. You knowthat that is okay,

exactly. And when I think about the you know, my
most intimate relationship,which I would count you in
between, is there are thoserelationships where we can be
radically honest, even if it canbe painful, like we, even we
visited like, you know, we brokeup, I think eight or nine months
into the broke up in airport,right about like we broke up a

(27:10):
romantic or and sexualrelationship, about eight or
nine months in, you know, backin 2004 right? We got better.
2003 we ended early. 2004 wewere much younger. You know, I
just, I was pregnant when wemet. Then I just had a baby. You
had a bunch of partners, like,

Far too many partners, Alex, as I think you
may well have pointed out at thetime! [laughs]

True and how it worked when I had no needs, but
then the minute I had needs,we're like, oh, no, one more
person with needs, which pair,you know, and I might have been
attached or mono and but, likeyou said, it's like, but we
managed, somehow, through all ofthat, to keep talking to one

(27:57):
another and like, to becomefriends and then collaborators,
you know, and and that intimacykind of shifting and deepening,
even though, you know, therewere changes, and I'm sure there
will be more changes, you know,moving forward, because that's
life. But I think that sometimesthat's what's so hard for

(28:20):
people, right? But I like thisrelationship, and I want it to
stay exactly as it is, yeah. Andthe reality is that most
relationships don't say as theyare, but they don't always have
the flexibility to kind of holdthe changes which, which is,
which is not easy.

Yeah, really hard. I mean, that's the, I'm
really saying this stuff is thehardest possible stuff. You
know, it's, it's, well, I mean,it's so basically, it's so hard
when people want you to besomething that you can't be. And
it's so hard when people can'tbe what you want them to be
like. But it's the push and thepull, right, of relating, to
find that place where you canbe, you know, sort of, I mean,

(29:00):
again, this is really Bell Hooksway of loving, isn't it that you
know this, this mutuality, thesense that you're both valuable,
and you know that that's, that'swhat love is, and you're not
trying to push the other personaway or pull the other person
in, and neither, neither arethey trying to do that to you.
And that's incredibly hard.
There's just so often these,these hooks of, kind of, yeah,

(29:21):
if you want to call it, youknow, sort of, sort of needy and
avoidant, or whatever languageyou want to use for that, you
know, it's, yeah, reallychallenging to kind of just, I
guess, have the value of, like,I'm not going to do that with
people and other beings and theland and everything, yeah. And
then to nurture relationshipswhere that's a sort of shared

(29:46):
value, I guess, yeah.

And I think that, you know, when we talk about it
can sound so like, smooth andeasy and beautiful, but it's
kind of messy, like, you know,there's less

thing. The feelings, yeah, like with
absolute terror you know thatyou're going to lose somebody.
You know, terrible loneliness,complete rage that the person is
not being what you want them tobe. You know, total shame, that
you realize that you are wantingsomebody to be something they're
not and not actually loving themvery well. And I mean, this is,
you know, this is absolutelylike you were saying, this is

(30:21):
the human stuff. This is whatexistential philosophers, you
know, Buddhist scholars, allthese kind of folks have been
writing about because it's sohard, you know, spending, you
know, lifetimes writing aboutthis kind of stuff because it's
so hard.

Absolutely, and also, sorry about that human we
get messy, like we sayunfortunate things. I mean, we
both said things to each other,you know, during our first kind
of breakup, let's call it, youknow, yeah, and, and then we
have to find our way back toeach other, knowing that things
that we say when we're not inour best self are not all of who

(30:59):
we are right, and in a way thatthat does mean that we need to
be radically honest withourselves and each other right,
like, hey, that hurt me or that.
And sometimes it can't happen inthat moment like it took us, I
think, many years to be able toprocess that in a way that was
really like, had enough distancefrom the rawness of the moment,

(31:23):
right? But it can be so helpful.
Because, you know, I know I waslike, oh, that's how that
impacted me. And you were like,Oh, I totally get it. That's
where I was. And I was like, oh,that's where I was, right? And
in a way, that's how we learnmore about ourselves and each
other. But I think sometimeswhen we read things in books, it

(31:44):
looks so neat, but the realityis that it's messy that can be
fights, that can bedysregulation, that can be
unfortunate things that peoplesay to each other. But somehow,
when we're driven by this beliefthat we can repair, we can, you
know, reconnect the most peopleare not and beings are not a

(32:06):
threat to us, even, you know it,even when it might feel so
because of our own trauma, likesomehow, right, we managed to
find our way back to each otherin different ways. Yeah, I like
that. You know, people are like,Yeah,

I'm sorry, yeah. I was just thinking, yeah,
that it can, it can just take along time as well. You know, it
just is okay to Yeah. Sometimesit takes, it takes, it can take
a while. Or, you know, therelationship stuff that comes up
can reveal in a work that youneed to do before you're able to
kind of go towards it. And,yeah, I guess, like, you say

(32:47):
messy, and just that is allright. That is okay.

And I think in a way, it asks us to move away
from this idea of purity andfrom purity culture, right?
Because it's not about here arethe good people, here are the
bad people. If you avoid the badpeople, you're only going to be
relating to good people, right?
And I'm like, That is not howcommunity works. That is not our
relationships work, right?

But again, like, like, the right and wrong
we were talking about before. Ithink good and bad, safe and
unsafe, you know? I think it's,again, it's only in recent
years, you know, and we're 50now you know that we've really
got this piece around the samepeople. You know, all of us are
capable of really wonderful,loving things, and all of us,

(33:34):
when we're in you know, a badsituation, are capable of
terrible and really hurtfulthings. And there isn't an
exception to that. And yeah, tobe able to hold that is one of
the hardest jobs of life. Butactually, I think relating gets
so much better when you can holdYeah, the whole of people,
whether they're vividly, youknow, plural, the way we are, or

(33:55):
whether it's just morerecognizing, you know,
everybody's multiplicity, andyou know, how they, yeah, how,
even just how you different whenyou're, you know, got a lot of
energy versus when you're reallytired, right? You know, it's
just people. People are, youknow, people can have a much
more capacity for loving,relating, you know, sometimes

(34:16):
than others. And different sidesof them, they have more capacity
and less capacity. And peopleare different places on their
journey of self knowledge andself kindness as well.

Absolutely, and I love that you mentioned that
self kindness, because I think alot of us, I know, for me, like,
are brought up with like, notwith that kindness often and
kind of, if we are used to likemotivating ourselves or judging
ourselves harshly, or treatingourselves harshly, we're likely

(34:50):
to also, you know, treat otherbeings that human and Non Humans
kind of more harshly, or to kindof have a lot of judgment. And I
mean, I. My personal judges alot, so I'm not saying this
about other people. I'm like, Ican be pretty judgmental. I know
when I start feeling irritatedby everybody and everything, I'm
like, oh, okay, Alex, time totake a break and figure out

(35:13):
what's going on here internally.
Because obviously, either you'renot meeting your needs or you're
in a lot of pain. Like, why areyou so crabby with the
multiverse, right now, right?
It's not, not everybody'sagainst me, like the traffic
lights or people, right? Like,Okay, time to, like, slow down

(35:33):
and pause and be like, What isgoing on internally? And how am
I, like, throwing out all thisuncomfortable feelings and kind
of spraying them all around forwhat a better word. I don't
know. Does that make sensetotally,

and I think, you know, that's this piece
about reconnecting with the selfand cultivating self love, which
is really why, you know, westopped and retreated, you know,
five years ago, and are stilldoing that deep inner work.
Because, you know, there wasjust so much kind of hate and
criticalness in our system, andwe've been, yeah, really working
with the self who's held all ofthat that's been one of the

(36:10):
really big pieces. Because, likeyou were saying about seeing the
world as a threat, I think whenyou can't be kind to yourself,
then it is very threatening, andconflict is very threatening,
because somebody might saysomething that just will send
you into, you know, way more,you know, we were sort of like,
you know, some sort of knifecomes from another person, and

(36:34):
you turn it into 1000 knives,and it's absolutely unbearable,
right? And so again, that theyall go together, cultivating
kindness at the level of theself and our interpersonal
relationships, our relationshipwith the world, and our
spiritual or existentialrelationship, or whatever you

(36:56):
want to call that, I thinkthey're all really connected.
And yeah, again, just so peopledon't go too hard on themselves,
if they're really frightened byconflict or if they're not able
to do rupture and repair. Youknow, this is stuff we have
found incredibly difficultourselves. And yeah, we're
really lucky with thisrelationship that we found a way
through, you know. But it is.
It's incredibly hard territory.

You Yeah, and I think that's the beauty. I don't
talk about relationship a lot byany way. It's foundational to
the book we wrote. We even putthat in the introduction, right?
Because we are very differentpeople. We were brought up in
different country, differentcultures, you know, we have, to
some degree kind of different,you know, similar yet different

(37:44):
experiences and identities, andthere's places of convergence
and divergence, but somehowwe've managed to keep this open
dialog between us, right, andthis kind of trust that we've
built with one another in over20 years of relating, kind of
really trusting that we are nottrying to hurt the other person.

(38:06):
Even when we are hurt, we cansay like, Oh, ouch. That's
really hurtful. You know, webecome more and more skillful as
our trust increased, but wecould have just as easily, like,
walked away and never talked toeach other again, and that would
have been such a loss. Like,sometimes I think about it
because, yeah, because that hashappened with other people,

(38:26):
where there is, like, a raptureand and sometimes I feel so sad,
because I'm like, oh, what couldhave been if we could just slow
down a little bit more andfigure out what is happening,
right? As long as there is, ofcourse, physical safety, because
that physical safety is soimportant, and, of course,
emotional safety is alsoimportant. It's a little bit

(38:49):
trickier, because sometimes wecan feel unsafe when we're
uncomfortable. I know that isone of the things that can
happen a lot under this kind ofcolonial white supremacist
culture, like, especially whenwe're traumatized, like, am I
truly unsafe? Am Iuncomfortable? And sometimes we

(39:10):
can also mistake lack of safetyfor lack of comfort, which is
not great, right? And there's somuch discernment that it takes
to stay in relationship that isreally hard. Like, really

hard, yeah, really hard. Like, say it's both
ways. It's like, we might get,well, we will, you know, and we
have definitely had a lot ofthis over the last few years, of
like, yeah, seeing something asincredibly threatening. That's
actually not so, but also notnoticing that something's really
threatening when it is, youknow, or just a really bad idea.

(39:44):
So, yeah, I think hopefully thebook, you know, offers some
guidance of how people can startto tune into themselves, and
also what kind of support theycan get. And, yeah, there's a
lot of kind of people supportingeach other with this stuff. I
feel like in the last few years,hopefully. This understanding
of, yeah, things like trauma andneuro divergence and the way

(40:04):
being in this quite violentculture impacts us. You know,
that's all got a little moreawareness around it, and, yeah,
hopefully this, this book, doeshelp people to, sort of like,
apply that to their relating.

I think what's tricky, I think, in a way, is
also that you know more and moreas we descend into this kind of
increasing level of fascism inmany different places across the
globe where you know, and in away, there's a lot of purity
culture within fascism too,right? This is right. This is
wrong. This is the truth. Thisis the, you know, these are the

(40:45):
lies, like things being in need,categories. It feels very
counter cultural in a way, tohave a book out that's like,
look, it's actually, there's somuch nuance. There is so much
nuance in relating, you know,like you said, you can feel, you
know, you can be in a situationthat it's unsafe and not
recognize it, and you can be ina situation that is safe but

(41:09):
uncomfortable and feel likethere's lack of safety there.
Like, you know, in a way, we'reasking readers to really go on
this journey of like, nuance,radical honesty with themselves
and each other. It is not aneasy ask that we do of the
readers. In some ways, it doesfeel like in a world that where
people want fast answers, we'redefinitely not giving fast

(41:33):
answers. In our book aboutbelieving, do we?

There's a lot about slow you know, and I guess
that's, again, what you get in alot of the trauma work is it
can't be done fast. And then,yeah, we've really learned that
the hard way over here. So yeah,and again, like, what does
slowing down look like? Andyeah, I guess we found that the
chapters that kind of gotreally, really big with those

(41:58):
ones towards the end, about howdo we do this sort of slow,
conscious, consensual relating,and again, lots of different
ways, because it's not going tobe the same for everybody. So
hopefully there's a lot of toolsin there, and also signposts to
other people who have greattools for doing this kind of,
yeah, really emotional, embodiedwork, right?

Absolutely. And what I love is, like the
slowness is also it's notnecessarily like a steady pace,
because we're humans. There aretimes where we're gonna get
excited, we're gonna fall headover heels in love, right? Like
with the place, or with theperson and and we might make,
like, big choices, and that'snot necessarily wrong either.

(42:46):
It's just like, it's more ofthis attitude of like, Yeah,
let's like, life is gonna have avarying pace and and also when
we want to be intentional, like,Can we take a moment? Can we
take a step back? Can we relatea lot more slowly? Can we try
not to make brush intensedecisions, like, for forever,

(43:08):
right? Like, we can be like,Okay, I need a little space,
yeah, take, like, a few weeks ora moment to like, yeah. Does
that make sense? Yeah?

And I think it's not so much about speed as
again, as you, as you get toknow yourself better, you have a
better sense of like, am I, am Iin an okay place to do this? Or
am I likely to, yeah, go intoblame or defensiveness or claps
and and it's like, you knowwhen, when you're feeling you
know really grounded, and whenyou know what that feels like in

(43:40):
your body feeling grounded, youknow, you're able to be sincere
and be present, then you mightgo quite fast, you know, but
when you realize, you know, or,yeah, I'm really edgy right now,
I'm or I'm dissociating a bit,or I'm tired, you know, it's
kind of like learning how to putthe pause. Or, you know, just
explore whether something mightbe communicated slowly in

(44:01):
writing or again, knowing ourneoaddurgence, knowing our
trauma patterns, knowing whatwork just plain works for us and
doesn't work for us, and beingable to articulate that stuff
and again, and not not gettinginto the purity type idea that
you know, if we tick all thoseboxes, then it's all going to be
great all the time. We're notgoing to have difficult
feelings. Because unfortunately,those are still going to keep

(44:23):
coming, but hopefully we can,yeah, weather them a bit
differently, perhaps than thanwhen we, you know,
instinctively, kind of lash outor lash in.

And I think there's a lot to be said about
the role of shame as well inrelationship. Because if we have
shame about who we are, or wereact, I know for myself, like
I've had to do a lot of work.
I'm like, yeah, some of my neurodivergence means that sometimes
I have meltdowns, I can lashout, and I want to be
accountable, and I want to workon that. And also there needs to

(44:57):
be a level of like. Uh,acceptance and not collapsing
into shame or hiding, because Idon't think that's helpful
either. That's actually cancause a lot of actually abusive
situation too, especially forlike, neurodivergent folks who
are autistic, for example. Iknow I dealt with so much shame,

(45:19):
and I know other folks have too,and though sometimes somehow
it's like, well, if I melt down,maybe it's okay that other
people are treating me likethis, right, because there's
something wrong in air quoteswith me, all the internalized
sanism and ableism and what weconsider acceptable or not
acceptable in dominant culture.
And so there is a lot ofstruggling with, like,

(45:41):
acceptance of our whole self,knowing that, you know, we all
have the capacity for good andbad. We all have the capacity
for, you know, loving, affirmingrelating and totally like,
distractive, yeah, painfulrelating, I don't Does that
makes sense,

total, total sense, yeah? And I feel like
there's such a longing in us, inour system, you know, to get to
a point to be able to be with,like you said, to be able to be
with discomfort, to be able tobe with these hard moments,
yeah, to be able to be withsomebody when they're

(46:22):
struggling, when they're meltingdown, you know, and and to be
able to be with ourselves, youknow, again, it's so much about
not abandoning yourself and notabandoning others. And again,
you know, just as we've said alot of times already on you
know, this is not easyterritory. And yeah, the more, I
guess is, the more honest andloving we can be with ourselves,

(46:42):
the more able we might be ableto be that honest and loving
with others. And you know, let'sacknowledge it's a lifelong
journey, and it's okay that weget it wrong along the way.

Oh, we're definitely gonna get it wrong
along the way. I know I'm in my50s. I got a lot of things
wrong. Obviously, I got maybesome things well, and that's a
struggle, even moving away fromthat wrong or right, like I have
learned, like I've had, youknow, relationships that felt
more or less loving. I've hadmoments in my long term

(47:18):
relationships when I've beenmore or less loving. I've had
moments with you when I've beenmore or less loving towards you,
right? It's like, before wesigned on, you were telling me
about your T shirt, which isreally awesome. Oh yeah, that
kind of sums up the book, likeyou said, right?

I'd love you can see, but it says, Love will
keep us together. But it's areversible t shirt, so it also
says Love will tear us apart onthe other side.

And and for those of you are just listening on the
podcast, don't worry. We're notdoing a show and tell of MJ like
turning their T shirt insideout, so you don't missing out,
although you can absolutely comeon YouTube and and watch MJ show
the t shirt. Love will keep ustogether. Love will tear us
apart. But I think that's abeautiful paradox, right? That

(48:13):
kind of and that's how I feel,even in my love for the
ecosystem right now with allthis climate crisis, right? I
feel like I could spend all daylike, heartbroken and I and I
am, but also I look outside andI'm totally in love with where I
live, and I'm totallyheartbroken, right? But the, you

(48:34):
know, the fires in LA, and then,yes, exactly,

yeah. Can we hold the bothness? Can we hold,
yeah, how how terriblerelationships can be, and how
wonderful and missed, and howmysterious is even some, you
know, stay together, some breakup, you know, and how, yeah, can
we hold the world at the momentas this utterly beautiful,

(48:59):
magnificent thing, and also thisincredibly traumatized and
traumatizing thing, you know,it's just, it's all of it. And
again, I feel like the kind oftools, hopefully that we're
offering the book might helppeople expand, perhaps a little
that capacity to hold it allthemselves and others, you know.

(49:21):
And again, I think you know,like you say, comes back to
shame, comes back so much tothis dominant culture of having
to be good, and you know, thisterror of being seen as bad in
any way, because, because ofshame, and yeah, like, starts
withholding the bothness and orthe all this in ourselves, and,

(49:41):
you know, hopefully expands thatoffer to others as well,

absolutely. And I think that's the thing. It's
like, it is, in a way, relatingwith the ecosystem, with others.
It's also a way to of relatingto ourselves, right? It's kind
of, how do we come to accept theall of ourselves, right, the
parts that we like and the partswe dislike, the parts where we
know we can do and createbeautiful things, but we can

(50:11):
also be distractive and harmful,because we're humans, and we
have the both both hands, right,both the potential of creating
and the potential of destroying,both the potential of loving and
the potential for hate, right?
And the more we accept thatabout ourselves, I think the
more intentional and consciouswe can become in our day to day

(50:31):
choices,

yeah, and again, I think, you know, almost
like the beautiful and theterrible thing about the times
we living through is there justholding up a mirror in a way
that feels more so than everbefore, of like it's very hard
to avoid those facts about Yeah,the bothness, the capacity that
we all have for Yeah, creationand destruction, because it's

(50:59):
just being so starkly revealedin all these different areas all
at once. Yeah,

yeah. I think, quite like, we went down this
kind of, I mean, I think usefulrabbit hole in terms of people
understanding what they mightexpect from the book. I mean,
maybe they're totally put off,and they're like, why would I
pick up this? Even gonna give meanswers. But a little while ago,
you were like, I have two thingsI want to talk about, and now
I'm like, Oh, what was the otherunusual?

But I've managed to hold on to it. Oh,
good, which was just howrelational the book was, I
suppose. And it's kind of maybea nice place to start rounding
up. Because obviously we talkeda lot about how it was
relational, in terms of ourrelationship, but it was also
like held in a much widerrelationship. And I suppose you

(51:52):
know a couple ones I wouldmention would be our friend
Hannah, who put us up in thisgorgeous place Living Well, I
guess it was the land as well.
It was the land and the water.
It's like a kind of water millby a riverside in Galicia. And
so, you know that comes into thebook, being in this peaceful

(52:13):
location, being able to go andswing in a hammock, you know,
Hannah cooking meals for us. Andso much gratitude there and
then. Yeah, like Sophia, whowrote the forward for us, you
know, ordered, obviously, allour different relationships, our

(52:34):
whole life that have gone intothe book, from our kind of early
family relationships onwards,right? So, yeah, I feel like
seeing, I guess I always now seeeverything I do as relational, I
mean, in the sense now I'm kindof writing as a we, you know. So
there's various different selvesin here that are contributing

(52:58):
more explicitly in this booknever before, but also it's
everybody I've read andeverybody I've related with.
I've got a friend who startedusing we when they write, not
because they're plural, butbecause they want to acknowledge
that it's just not an I. Thereis no i. There is, you know,
bell hooks and Thich Nhat Hahnand you know John, well, Lord,

(53:21):
and I don't know Pema Chodron,and you know Audrey Lord, and
you know, there's all thesepeople, whether they'd like, you
know, the words that we, that weuse, that are so influenced by
their words, or not, we are veryinfluenced by all those people,
you know. And equally, I guess,the ones we disagree with, you
know. So it's all in there. Soit's a very relational book.

(53:41):
Does that? Does that sort ofresonate for you as well? Alex,

oh, my God, it resonates so much. Because
often, you know, we have thethis illusion of the self,
right? Even when I think aboutrom Harris book, The singular
self, and even this idea, like,what is our singular self?
Whether, even if we're notplural, like, are we really a
singular self when we bring ourancestors with us, our history?

(54:10):
You know, we cannot move out ofculture like we said in kind of
passbook and other folks havesaid. And so there is something
about colonialism, I think, andwhite supremacy and patriarchy,
I think that one us want to feedus this like almost
exceptionalism of the self. Andyet when I write, I often feel

(54:31):
like I am taking all of thiswith me. I do have my ancestors
with me, my relationship withspirit, my relationship with
place. Like you said, this bookis the book it is because of the
place we were able to write itin, and the way we were held
with so much care and love andand the way we're held by

(54:51):
community, including thecommunity of readers. You know,
yes, keep choosing to like, readour books or recommend our books
or. Asked them on to like otherpeople or use them to teach in
their courses, right? There islike this web like, and, you
know, again, this is not new,from my point of view. This is

(55:12):
like most indigenous culturesthat I know of talk about, like
being in deep relationships withone another, right? And so for
me, that's the beauty of thisbook, is that we really talk
about the ease and complexity ofbeing in relationship, right? I
know that I think I do talkabout this in the book, at one

(55:32):
point, though, I from, if Ithink about, you know, romantic
relationships, I have a realhard time with the concept of
dating, right? It kind of almostdenies that we're constantly in
relationship, yeah, like we'reconstantly in relationship with
one another. It's okay. So nowwe want to explore this aspect

(55:53):
of relationship, right? It maywork. It might not work just
because we're in a relationship,but I think because people think
that there are so manyexpectations, or may even read
expectations where there may notbe expectations, right, there's
just this, like under parent orweight even to the word

(56:13):
relationship, yes. And so when Ithink about even the title, and
maybe that's a good place aswell to keep moving towards the
end of this conversation, I'msure we'll have more like, even
when we think about the termrelationships, there is a weight
to it, and so I really like, Iwould love for the listeners, or

(56:34):
if you're watching on YouTube,take a moment to breathe and
even notice Bucha what comes upfor you when you hear The word
relationships, I feel like themoment you say the word
relationship, there is like aworld of values and expectations
and beliefs and experiences thatkind of crowds the space. Yes,

(56:55):
that makes sense.

I think so this, yeah, just this general
theme, I think, of how we tendto what's the word, like,
solidify things. You know, justlike we tend to solidify people.
You know, we were saying it'slike, good, bad, safe and safe,
it's easy to kind of solidify arelationship. And what it means
are relationships of all kind, Iguess, you know, romantic

(57:17):
relationships particularly havethat, like, I'm in a
relationship, and it comesburdened with a lot of
expectations and stories. But Ithink yeah, it's Yeah, so easy
to do that. So something aboutthe kind of relating as kind of
something fluid that we do overtime feels a little Yeah, a
little looser, perhaps,

yeah. And I think what I love about what we do in
the book is that we do kind ofdeconstruct this concept. So
they even when we say, like, Iwant more intimacy in my
relationship, it was like, Well,what does that mean? Like, what
kind of intimacy? I think atthis point I have like, 17
different types of intimacy. Oh,and see it as well, and also

(58:07):
it's like the different parts ofus, whether we're singled or
plural, have different needswhen we're relating and even in
different moments like that,just being able to have that
self and other acceptance, ifthere is even a separation
between self and other, ofcourse, because if we're all
part of the web, what impactssomebody else impacts me, and

(58:30):
what impacts me impacts somebodyelse and and for me, that's the
beauty of relating. Is thatinterdependence, right? It's
like, it's not, it's challengingthe myth of independence, which
is which serves capitalism is socolonial right and and really
move towards this much moreindigenous concept of

(58:53):
interdependence, right that Ithink is central to Many
indigenous movements, is centralto disability justice. Like
yeah, this idea that if we'reall part of the web, we are
interdependent. We depend oneach other for survival, for and
so relating is inevitable insome way. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

(59:16):
That's that sounds very doom.
Relating is inevitable. So youbetter get our book How to
Understand Your relationships,to know how to do it. Better
look at me like I can I can sumit up in a sound bite,

relating. It's never before. I love it. Yeah,
totally, but yeah that we're soagain, it goes back to what I
said right at the start. It'severy level tries to kind of
disconnect us from others, whichis why it gets so painful,
because we get very much like weare this separate object and the
other, the other, whoever theother is, is a separate object,

(59:49):
this kind of us and themself andother. And it's a long, long
journey to this reconnectionthat is so vital, yeah, for the
planet, for you know, my. Theconflict for pretty much
everything we're facing sofunny, like, I'm saying this,
and there's a little, littlething going around on the
computer saying reconnecting,

Alex Iantaffi (01:00:15):
like even the internet is like, relating is
hard. Yeah, I'm trying to relayyou across. Be compassionate.

Meg-John Barker (01:00:27):
Yeah, that's what we need. We can

so there's always that is what we did,
reconnection, but from theinternet, which I hope we are
connected enough for recordingthis episode, but also
reconnecting with ourselves, theecosystem and with one another,
because relating is inevitable.
There you go. This is my mantraor not, let's be less culturally

(01:00:51):
appropriate. The my leadingphrase for 2025.

Meg-John Bark (01:00:58):
Love it. Love it.

So at the end of episode, always ask, is there
anything that we haven't talkedabout that you were hoping we
would talk about? So I'm gonnaask us both these questions in
this dialog. Is there anythingwe haven't talked about that we
were hoping to talk about?

I I just Yeah, only that also, yeah, do, do?
Look out for Alex's excellentedited collection on trans and
disability, which is just Yeah,absolutely wonderful from what
we've read so far. Yeah, andhopefully you'll get to do a

(01:01:41):
whole whole episode on thatspecifically. But yeah, you've
got the two books out, and Ithink we really want to
recognize that, and they're bothreally important, and lots of
really interesting overlapsbetween the two as well.

Oh, thank you.
That is really kind, and I amexcited to see what happens next
to our writing partnership,because for the first time in
several years, we don't have aproject that we're doing
together, but I know that we arerelating to one another, and
other projects are slowlyemerging, and I'm sure at some
point we'll find that beautifuloverlap of your interest with my

(01:02:21):
interest, and we'll get to nerdout and write another book,
yeah? And in the meantime, wejust get to enjoy relating
without writing for a minute,

yeah, and maybe supporting each other with our
separate projects as well. Likeyou know that that just feels
beautiful to me, that. I mean,we do that a lot anyway, but in
a way, not having a specific usproject maybe frees up the
possibility for sort of doingother kinds of support of each
other's creativity, which, yeah,I'd really enjoy,

absolutely, I think that's one of the
beautiful things in ourrelating, is that we do support
each other, relating to otherpeople, relating to writing
creative projects. So I'm reallylooking forward to see what
happens next for both of us,separately and in our kind of
beautiful partnership whichcontinues and changes and flows

(01:03:25):
with time and for so thank you.
Thank you. Thank you so much,MJ, for the beautiful time we
got to spend together today, andto all of you wonderful gender
stories listeners would love andappreciate if you get a copy of
How to Understand Yourrelationships and or of the
anthology trans and disabled,they're both published by

(01:03:47):
Jessica Kingsley, and watch thespace for all the other
beautiful projects that MJ and Iare kind of involved in, and we
let you know about in duecourse. And until then, I hope
that your relating is full ofhealing, spaciousness, growth,
beauty and joy, and until then.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}How to Understand Your Relationships: A conversation with the authors Meg-John Barker and Alex Iantaffi

Episode Transcript

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.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Cold Case Files: Miami

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How to Understand Your Relationships: A conversation with the authors Meg-John Barker and Alex Iantaffi

Cold Case Files: Miami