July 3, 2023 • 54 mins
Eli Conley is an indie folk singer-songwriter, teaching artist, and activist based on Miwok and Nisenan land (Sacramento, California). He makes music for queer and trans folks, justice seekers, and anyone who doesn’t fit easily in a box. Eli's voice is tender and heartfelt, with melodies and that can leave you teary-eyed yet hopeful. As a queer transgender man from the South, his songs tell stories that aren’t always reflected in roots music.
Eli founded Queer Country West Coast, a regular series featuring LGBTQ+ blues, folk, and country artists in California. He has opened for Carsie Blanton, Heather Mae, and Grammy-winner Kimya Dawson, and been featured in the Huffington Post and the Advocate.
Eli's third album Searching for What's True is coming in July 2023. Themes of uncertainty, ache, and loss come up again and again on this record. The songs are drawn from the concrete and immediate details of daily life: a stuffed animal clutched in a child's arms, a colorful sunset after a forest fire, a confederate statue toppling to the ground.
Searching for What's True is Eli's first release since being diagnosed with a serious repetitive stress injury that forced him to stop playing music for many months. After wrist surgery and careful rehab, he came back to songwriting with a renewed sense of purpose. On the album's first single "Making Something New" he describes the work of an artist as "finding beauty in the wreckage / making meaning of the grief / when we tell our stories true we find release." His deep belief in the transformative power of creativity stems not only from his own experiences, but his many years leading singing and songwriting classes for queer and transgender people and allies.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Musical Intro (00:01):
There's a whole lot of things I want to tell you
about. Adventures dangerous andqueer. Some you cna gues adn
some I"ve only hinted at, soplease lend me your ear.
Narrator (00:26):
Everyone has a relationship with gender. What's
your story? Hello and welcome toGender stories with your host,
Dr. Alex Iantaffi.
Alex Iantaffi (00:37):
Hello and welcome to another episode of gender
stories as ever, I'm delightedI'm excited. I know I say that
every time but I truly am everytime to be here with Eli Conley
today. Eli is an indie folksinger songwriter, teaching
artist, and activist based onMiwok and Nisenan land currently
known as Sacramento, California.
It makes music for queer andtrans folks, Justice seekers,
(00:58):
and anyone who doesn't fiteasily in a box. Eli's voice is
tender and heartfelt, withmelodies that can leave you
teary eyed yet hopeful as aqueer transgender man from the
south is songs tell stories thataren't always reflected in roots
music. Eli founded Queer CountryWest Coast, a regular series
(01:18):
feed featuring LGBTQ plus blues,folk and country artists in
California. He has open forCarsey Blanton, Heather May and
Grammy winner Kimya Dawson, andbeen featured in the Huffington
Post and the advocate. Eli'sthird album "Searching for
What's True" is coming in July2023. And it has themes of
uncertainty, ache and loss thatcome up again and again. The
(01:44):
songs are drawn from theconcrete and immediate details
of daily life, a stuffed animalclutched in a child's arms, a
colorful sunset after a forestfire, a Confederate statue
toppling to the ground Searchingfor What's True is Eli's first
released since being diagnosedwith a serious repetitive stress
injury that forced him to stopplaying music for many months.
(02:05):
After the surgery and carefulrehab, he came back to
Songwriting with a renewed senseof purpose on the albums for
single making something new, itdescribes the work of an artist
as finding beauty in thewreckage, making meaning of the
grief, when we tell our storiestrue, we find release. His deep
belief in the transformativepower creativity stems not only
(02:27):
from his own experiences but hismany years leading singing and
songwriting classes for queerand transgender people and
allies. And in fact, Eli and Imet at the Trans Voices Festival
back in Minneapolis, where youare both performing and teaching
and lovely workshop. And then Itook most of one of your
(02:48):
classes, and then I like lifegot too much. And my health got
a little bit too much. So I hadto drop off that has been so
wonderful to see you perform andalso see you teach you truly
have such a love of nurturingcreativity in others. I think
that is really infectious. Andso yeah, I'm really excited that
(03:11):
you're here on gender stories.
Thank you.
Eli Conley (03:15):
Yeah, Alex, thank you so much. It's really good to
be here with you and get toconnect with you in this way. I
really loved having you as astudent and now getting to be on
the interviewee side with you.
Alex Iantaffi (03:28):
Absolutely. I want to really start from that
sentence actually finding beautyin the wreckage that is in one
of your songs. And at themoment, there's a lot of
wreckage, I think for transfolks. And so what does that
kind of? Where does that linecome from? And how do you find
that beauty in the wreckage ofthe moment in your life?
Eli Conley (03:50):
Hmm. You know, that line is in the title song of the
album, The album's calledsearching for what's true. And
the song is called Makingsomething new. And it comes from
the bridge that was not in thesong originally. But I was kind
of writing the song playing withthe idea of the connections
(04:10):
between the way that artists aregrappling with creativity in
lots of different ways. And theway that queer and trans folks
are also like, I thinkinherently creative. Because
when you have realized who youare in a world that tells you
you're one thing and then you'relike, wait a minute, actually,
the truth about my gender andsexuality is something else. I
(04:31):
think it can open us up torealizing that like so many
things are up for grabs, and wecan like create ourselves and
create a lot of beautifulthings. So just come back to
your question. I think one waythat I grapple with the work
that is my work as a artist,both a teaching artist and our
(04:51):
performing artist right now isthat actually when times are
really rough is one of the timesthat we need beauty and we need
art the most we need things thatare going to lift us up and help
remind us that we are human andthat we are more than just you
know what the right wing and themedia is saying we are as queer
(05:13):
and trans folks are asmarginalized folks broadly,
because we know we're not theonly ones under attack. And so
for me, certainly my creativepractice is part of how I
actually create that spacewithin my life, do deep self
care for myself and throughexploring, like, Okay, what is
something that is reallyexciting or beautiful or
(05:35):
compelling for me right now. AndI also see that in my community,
like reminding myself when Ikind of get the tunnel vision
of, you know, scrolling on thescreen, or looking at the news,
which I tried to, you know, doand measured about actually
being like, who is in my life,what is the care and love and
(05:55):
like beautiful queerness and joythat is around me all the time,
if I just kind of opened my eyesup to the people who are close
to me, even when we'restruggling, that's a lot of the
place that like, I personallyfind a lot of a lot of joy.
Alex Iantaffi (06:12):
That's beautiful.
I love that. And I think we doneed Joy more than ever, even
though in the album, which I hadthe privilege to kind of get a
little preview of, and I'm soexcited. There are a lot of
themes of loss and pain. And,and I do wonder how much of that
has come out of you know, we've,we've been in a pandemic for
(06:32):
three years, there's also beenkind of an epidemic and an
uprising. And for a moment itlooked like maybe even a shift
towards abolition, you know, andthen kind of that kind of died
down. And then you also dealtindividually with chronic health
issues. And so how much kind ofall those things kind of
informed the album as well.
Eli Conley (06:54):
Yeah, so I really started writing this record in
2018 kind of pre pandemic, butpost Trump just to place it in
time. We're not we're definitelydealing with fascism, we were
not yet dealing with COVID-19.
Because my last record was in2017. And, and this is really a
(07:14):
culmination of what I think arethe best songs that I've written
in the past number of years. Butthrough that time, in 2019, I
got this repetitive stressinjury in both my wrists
actually from being on tour, andjust playing gigs that were, you
know, two hours long to makemoney. Sometimes I'll play
background music gigs. And Icame home and I was in a lot of
(07:37):
pain that I'd been ignoring. ButI finally went to the doctor and
was diagnosed with this. It'scalled decware veins syndrome,
similar to carpal tunnel, butlike on the other side of the
wrist. And basically, at thattime, I had to completely stop
playing guitar. And I teachvoice, my kind of day job is I'm
a voice teacher. I also teachsongwriting. And I also had to
(08:01):
take some time off from playingpiano and teaching voice. And so
I kind of had this vacuumsuddenly, that a lot of people
had in 2021, like theirlivelihood, particularly those
of us who were not essentialworkers was taken away, or
really shifted. But for me in2019, suddenly, I was in this
big question of who am I if I'mnot making music, who am I if
(08:23):
I'm not able to playinstruments, and I was really a
singer first before I ever cameto being an instrumentalist, but
you know, I've had some journeyswith my voice as a trans person.
And in that moment, one of theways that I started writing
music is I actually came back tovoice only songs. I wrote some
(08:43):
songs inspired by the uprisingin 2020. My friend Talia Cooper,
and I wrote a song called it'sgoing to come to me. Nope, it's
gone. I'll think of it later, wewrote a song, we wrote a song,
specifically calling out tofellow white folks around taking
(09:05):
action for the movement forblack lives. That was like a
call and response song. Andcoming back to kind of writing
voice only songs is a reallypowerful way to realize like,
I'm always going to be amusician, I'm always going to be
a songwriter. You know, I'velearned a lot from disability
justice movement and friendswith disabilities that like, we
are not, you know, ourproductivity, right are like our
(09:29):
bodies and the way we use ourbodies and the ways that we need
care is going to shift for allof us over our lifetime. But
that was a quick moment ofchange for me. And so I think
the songs that I wrote posthaving to take time off from
making music physically with aninstrument like they did kind of
have this different urgency orlike wheat to them. There's a
(09:52):
song on the record called Idon't want to hurt that I wrote
down the Oakland Hills just Ialmost kind of Scream singing, I
don't want to hurt anymore. Andeventually, when I was able to
come back to guitar with helpfrom wrist surgery and hand
therapy, and, you know, verycareful playing, I'm still very
careful these days. I was ableto add guitar underneath them.
(10:16):
But yeah, I will also say, evenprior to 2018, I've been a kind
of serious, sad songwriter. Butmaybe the times caught up with
my art. I don't really know.
There's also a song about queerastronauts. So you know, you
never know.
Alex Iantaffi (10:36):
I know, I kinda love that I was listening. And I
was like, is this song aboutqueer astronauts? And I was
like, yes.
Astronauts, yeah. Okay.
Great. But it was kind of Yes,usually have so much more kind
of everyday moments, right?
Yeah, they took me a minute. Iwas like, we're in space. It
(10:57):
just seemed to diverge a littlefrom your canon And
Eli Conley (11:05):
it's very unexpected. Your average folk
song is not about astronauts.
But you know, sometimes thosethings come true. I tried really
hard to make it a metaphor forsomething. And the astronauts in
the song, were just like, Nope,we're just gay astronauts in
space. No, it's like, Alright,I'm gonna let you be who you
are.
Alex Iantaffi (11:23):
Like, I love that, because actually, just
recently, I've had so manyconversations about how so many
trans folks love science fictionand fantasy. You know, and I've
just been to right, I've justbeen at Wiscon, which is the
feminist Science FictionConvention, that has been
happening for like, 46 years.
Yeah, this was Wiscon 46. And Ithink there's something about
(11:44):
space and the possibilities ofspace that have inspired a lot
of trans queer folks. And so itwas actually delightful than
there's a song about queerastronauts in your album. I
thought it was great.
Eli Conley (11:59):
Thank you. Yeah, you know, my very first record, I
had a song about a mythologicalGreek siren like leaving her
perch on the rocks to be a rockstar. I think just for whatever
reason, I like have little bitsof speculative stuff kind of
come in here and there. Andactually, there's this book that
I love. I mean, look up thetitle of it on my bookshelf. Oh,
(12:20):
yeah, I don't know if you'veread it's called "Meanwhile,
Elsewhere", but it'sspecifically all know short
stories, speculative fiction bytrans and non binary authors
highly recommend it and whileelsewhere, write it down, it's
so good. And my favorite authoris actually Ursula Le Guin. And
I've read almost everything byher. But
Alex Iantaffi (12:40):
she's the best.
you know, I think as a queer andtrans person who like makes
country and folk music,sometimes people think there's
like a big clash between thosetwo things. So they can't
coexist. And in a way, it almostfeels similar of like, who says,
You can't write a folk songabout queer astronauts, you
know, there's queer people inthe future. There's queer people
in the past, like, all of thesethings can coexist at the same
(13:02):
time. Yeah, and I think that'sone of the beautiful things
actually about being asongwriter. It's a little bit
like being a poet, where eachpiece you're making is actually
pretty short. And then yougather them together into this
bigger thing. But it's verydifferent from writing, say, a
novel, or, I don't know, amovie, like I can kind of when
(13:24):
I'm crafting a set, and I'mplaying live, think about like,
Okay, I'll have the tearjerkers,but like, Let me have a moment
of lightness, or a moment oflevity in the middle and kind
of, I think sometimes people arelike, not sure if they're
allowed to laugh at my shows,like, intentionally funny,
you are allowed to be sad. Yeah.
Like,
Eli Conley (13:45):
I take it as a compliment when people cry at my
music, but also, there will bemoments of like, hopefully, joy
and laughter, too.
Alex Iantaffi (13:56):
I love that. And you mentioned a little bit as
well, that you you know, you hadyour own journeys as a trans
artist and singer, especiallywith your voice. And I know that
actually, that is something thata lot of trans folks who are
singers or really enjoy theirvoice, especially if they're
going from an estrogen dominantbody to a testosterone dominant
(14:18):
body. They worry right aboutthat impact on singing voice.
Or, you know, if they're youngerfolks who are testosterone
dominant, wanting to move to anestrogen dominant body. You
know, puberty suppression is soimportant to preserve that kind
of higher pitched voice, right,that otherwise kind of
testosterone is going to change.
And so in either direction, Ithink that there's concerns
(14:39):
around voice. Yeah. Do you ifyou want to, could you share a
little bit about your journeyand what helped you kind of with
journeying through the changesin your voice? Yeah.
Eli Conley (14:55):
So I transitioned almost 17 years ago, which is
kind of wild. Oh, But in 2006, Iwas 20. And at the time, pretty
much all the information outthere said you take testosterone
and can't sing anymore, justlike period. Yeah, I remember
all the stuff I could find bothanecdotally and you know, just
on whatever it was Live Journalat the time. This was even pre
(15:20):
YouTube days, not that I'm thatold.
Alex Iantaffi (15:22):
That's when I started transitioning, I was
like, Yeah, I think you'relittle younger.
Eli Conley (15:30):
mean, same transition, or, you know, trans
generation. Yeah, I know. It'sweird. The generations like,
when did you come out? How oldare you?
Alex Iantaffi (15:37):
I think we're the same trans age. But
Eli Conley (15:40):
yeah, I'm 37. But yeah, so I transitioned in
college. And my journey in anutshell was, I kind of was
realizing that I was not a girlin high school, and initially
sort of came out as genderqueer,or what we might call non binary
today. And then it was reallyimportant to me, when I decided
(16:02):
to start hormones and eventuallyhave top surgery to kind of make
those decisions independent ofidentity in a way. And like,
eventually, I did startidentifying as male, but I
didn't, it was reallypolitically and personally
important to me that it wasn'tjust like, Well, I'm a dude. So
I'm going to take T and have topsurgery, I was like, you know,
each of these things is anindependent decision that is
(16:23):
related. But I put off hormonesfor maybe a year because of fear
around my voice changing becauseI was very identified as a
singer grew up, singing my wholelife. I was taking, I was not a
voice major, but I was takingvoice lessons at the school
where I went. And knew I wantedto be a performer in a serious
(16:46):
way. And I'm very thankful thatas I transitioned, I had a
couple other students who werelike opera majors at the school
where I went, you know, Ohio,who worked with me, and they've
never worked with trans folks.
But they were just like, well, Ican be an outside ear and like,
help listen and track your rangeas it changes. And for whatever
reason, I think, maybe acombination of being young, and
(17:07):
also that I was exercising myvoice really all through that
change, like it was challenging,took a couple years to fully
settled, but I was able to gofrom like high soprano to
eventually high tenor, and keepsinging. And that's a big reason
that I became a voice teacherafter college is because we
needed so many more resourcesaround singing and testosterone
(17:32):
and specifically, but alsosinging in gender and trans and
non binary folks more broadly.
And I wanted to be a resourcearound that. And now it's 17
years later. And I've workedwith probably hundreds of trans
and non binary singers throughtransition. And you know, plenty
of folks who are nottransitioning, like that looks
very different for everybody.
But the working with folks whoare on testosterone or thinking
(17:57):
about it is a big piece of mywork as a teacher. And honestly,
I've had some vocal challengesin the last four or five years.
And I don't know if they'rerelated to long term
testosterone or not, we don'thave research on long term
effects of hormones onprofessional singers. If you are
listening, and you want to dothat research, please do we need
(18:17):
it. But say that in the past fewyears, I learned a new teaching
technique that involves changinga little bit and doing a little
more what's called belting,which is using your kind of
speaking range up higher. Itried to do some of that on my
own, and I kind of tied myselfin some knots. But thankfully,
(18:38):
I've been working with theteacher who created this
technique to like, get throughthat on the other side. So all
that is to say my voice today islike not as easy and effortless
as it was when I was 15 or evenwhen I was 25 post T but it
feels a lot better than it didfive years ago. And I think also
like aging changes our voice,right? It's another way that
(19:01):
like, I feel like I try to learnfrom my friends and comrades
with disabilities and just belike, You know what, I can't
count on my body being the sameday and day to day and like how
do I love my body and be with itas it is and like, make art in
the moment with what I haverather than kind of wishing for
some sort of ideal voice orsomething. But I think it's
(19:23):
honestly made me a betterteacher. Because singing is not
as effortless as it used to be.
I do have to like work and warmup and, you know, be more
thoughtful about how I use myvoice these days.
Alex Iantaffi (19:38):
That makes a lot of sense to me. I have friends
who are singers likeprofessional singers and we're
older. You know, I mean my 50s Ihave a friend who was in her 60s
and she talked about how hervoice is changing and it's it is
more effortful to perform alsoto do concerts, you know, still
a beautiful voice but like justthe the care. Yep, that we need
(20:01):
to put into our body as we getolder, always. And then if
they're, you know, if we'redisabled, I think it's a little
bit extra effort. But I love howyour journey really speaks to
just that creativity or transfolks that you were talking
about at the beginning, right?
You're like, yeah, this makes menervous, you know, you waited,
but then you're like, Okay,we're doing this, and you
recruited people who couldsupport you. And then you took
(20:23):
all those things that you'velearned, and really put them
into supporting people? Becauseyeah, I remember, you know, in
the early to mid 2000s, therewas just nothing in terms of
resources, you know, and bothfor myself, but I also had
clients as a therapist who werelike, what about my voice? And I
was like, Oh, you can go to aspeech and language therapist,
(20:44):
but I don't really know what'sgoing to happen to your singing
voice, right? If there was alove of singing, and, and I
really think it speaks to ourcreativity, that there are
actually so many trans singersand artists who have navigated
those changes totally, in everydirection, you know? Yeah, you
know, and I think there are somany people in so many different
(21:07):
genres, too. You know, I thinkabout Venus de Mars here in
Minnesota was much more like, Idon't know if she would say,
punk rock. I'm not very goodwith genres. Sometimes, you
know, but all the way to, like,you know, more thoughtful can
country and I just love that wereally have so many trans and
(21:30):
non binary singers now, comparedto like, 20 years ago. I don't
remember having trans singershaving this much visibility, do
you when you first came out?
Eli Conley (21:42):
When I was first coming out 20 years ago. In
Yeah.
those early years, there wasJosh clip, who's like a kind of
crooner jazz singer in SanFrancisco. And there's Joe
Stevens, who I now am friendswith, he lives in Sacramento.
And he was in a band calledCoyote Grace, who are more sort
of my genre like Americanacountry folk, Miguel Flores,
(22:04):
who's also a kind of Americanasongwriter in San Francisco.
Yeah. But you know, I moved tothe Bay, and that's where all
those people were. And so I metthem, because it's a small
world.
Alex Iantaffi (22:15):
Absolutely, yeah.
I'm looking at a Coyote Graceposter.
Eli Conley (22:19):
Oh, they're so good.
Alex Iantaffi (22:20):
I was like, I literally have a poster of
Coyote Grace.
Eli Conley (22:23):
Yeah. Well, that was so beautiful, right. Like, I
think for folks who maybeweren't out or are younger,
might not know, like, at thetime, finding an out trans
singer and specific, especiallysomebody who was like, on
testosterone, and like singingprofessionally was like huge,
and coyote grace. You know,people would travel for hours to
(22:44):
go see their shows, yes, in theearly 2000s. Because it was
like, Oh my gosh, this couplelike queer cis femme and like
trans guy who are like, makingmusic about this experience. And
like being open about that. Ireally feel like they paved the
way or made the path is maybe abetter word for folks like me
who came a little bit after. AndI think like, in the generations
(23:08):
of like queer and trans artists,right, like each of us by
stepping into our power andsharing our art is making space
for who comes after us. And somuch gratitude to them. And it's
not like they're gone. They'restill making music to this day.
Ingrid Elizabeth from that bandis now in a band called Mouths
of Babes. That's really awesome.
Joe Stevens is writing musicals.
(23:32):
So but yeah, just the like, wecan count them on one hand,
probably the people who are likein the public eye at that time.
And now I feel like every day,I'm finding out about more queer
and trans singers. And that'sjust like, really beautiful to
me. Like, it's still I stillhave students who come to me and
are like, I don't even know whata trans singer could sound like,
(23:52):
like, what could my voice be?
But, you know, you can goSpotify and find like, a bunch
of playlists of trans singers,which is like, Yes, always, we
need more. And we need morefolks kind of reaching the
mainstream, because you have todig a little deeper, but I'm
really thankful, as somebody whohas been doing this work for a
minute. Yeah, but I don't feelas alone anymore, either, as a
(24:15):
voice teacher specializing intrans voice. And also as a
performer, like both of thosethings, I find I have a lot more
community these days in thatwork. And it also makes me feel
maybe counter intuitively, likeI don't always have to center
transness and everything I do,because there's like, enough
people doing this work that Iget to be a more nuanced human a
(24:35):
little bit, which is like, alsonice, honestly, you know?
Alex Iantaffi (24:42):
Oh, absolutely. I relate to that so much, because
I remember even you know, as afamily therapist, not a lot
about trans family therapists 20years ago, you know, at one
point, I think I was the onlyout trans clinical supervisor
that I knew. Yeah, familytherapy, right. And now there
are so many people Well, I waslike, I don't even have to talk
about gender anymore when I'lljust talk about disability or
(25:04):
something else. Yeah. Becausethere's more people, right?
Whereas before, it's like, oh,it's like, Can you do it, you
know, trans 101 if you have sometime. And it does get a little
tiring. And so it's so wonderfulthat there are so many more
people. Exactly. And you don'thave to kind of center that so
much. I do think that you dosell really value sharing
(25:26):
stories now just by yourself,but about trans folks, you know,
and one of the songs in your newalbum is, hey, that's me. Right?
And that could speak, I think,to so many different aspects of
the trans experience. Thank you.
Yeah. Do you want to share alittle bit more about that song?
But also, what does it mean foryou to be a trans an out trans
artist with many people in youraudience, your listeners who are
(25:53):
also trans, although notexclusively? Of course, yeah.
Eli Conley (25:59):
That would be kind of wild. If only trans people
listen to me. You can only seeme like that. What is the filter
on OkCupid? Like, I don't wantto be seen by straight people.
Probably did. That's where I metmy husband, I was not swiping
apps. was about hey, that's me.
So yeah, this is a song that Iwrote. Thinking about actually a
(26:23):
young, non binary trans musicianwho I know who is first kind of
coming out for startingtestosterone. And I was just
thinking about, like, you know,I have been out for almost 20
years at that point. Now, it hasbeen 20 years. And like, what
did I want to say to somebodywho is in that position in a
(26:46):
similar age as I was in college,when they were like coming out.
And so the first verse is kindof addressing, it says, like,
there may come a time when yourbody don't feel easy. And in
order to be free, it has tochange, there may come a time
when your gender, it justfractures, and you have to take
some action rearrange. And Ireally wanted to speak to that
(27:12):
just like this may happen to youat some point. And, and it can
be something that is reallysurprising. But like, if you are
in that moment, it's also achance to share with the world
with and with yourself, like whoyou really are, who you're
finding out yourself to be. Andso in that first chorus, hey,
(27:34):
that's me is kind of like, hey,that's who I always hoped that I
would be, like, finally gettingto show that to the world,
figuring it out for myself, Ithink a lot of those of us
whether it's social transition,medical transition, like
transition can look sodifferent. And also, not all
trans people do transition,right, but, but when you step
into that moment of kind ofsaying, I am going to shift how
(27:56):
I present myself, maybe whatpronouns I use, it can be this
beautiful moment of recognition,they're sort of the like, iconic
image of a trans person lookingthemselves in the mirror, right?
But like, it's iconic, becauseit's also true that when you
start to actually outwardlyexpress who you are more, so
there's like a joy in thatrecognition. And then the second
(28:16):
verse talks specifically aboutvoice and, and what happens if
you do find your voice kind ofunrecognizable, or like the
difficulty of singing songs thatmaybe were really familiar to
you, this person I was writingto as a songwriter. And speaking
from my personal experience,both as someone who had gone
(28:38):
through vocal change, and thenat the time I was writing, the
song was kind of grappling newlywith, whether it's aging, or how
it was using my voice, thingsnot coming as easily. And so in
that one, hey, that's me as kindof being like, Hey, this is what
I've tried to do, you know,like, tried to keep singing and
find my way to loving my voice,even through all the changes.
And then the last verse is aboutkind of, eventually, as we get
(29:03):
older, I use this metaphor oflike, holding out your umbrella
for the young. And not that I'mthat old, you know, I'm not
quite middle aged yet. But atthe same time, it does sometimes
feel like trans generations arelike five years long, you know,
it was like, we were the LiveJournal. And then there was the
Tumblr and Youtube generationand like, that's probably the
(29:23):
TikTok generation. But the, theway that as you do become, you
know, old been out for longer,it is an opportunity to like
create space and care for folkswho are coming behind you. And
kind of speaking to this personand being like, you're gonna be
in my shoes someday. 20 yearsfrom now, you will have been out
for 20 years and you can likecare for young folks. And so
(29:45):
that's also for myself thinkingas I become older, like that's
how I hope that I continue tobe. So yeah, through writing
that song, I got to grapple alot with thinking about queer
generations and aging and whatit means to both be not not that
old, but not that young anymore,either, you know, I am coming
(30:06):
into middle age at a particulartime when also transness is
under the microscope in a waythat it really wasn't when I was
first coming out.
Alex Iantaffi (30:16):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, in a way, that kind oftrans tipping point, you know,
if we go with that iconic Coxcover cover of Laverne Cox,
exactly. Yes, more visibility,but also kind of visibility
sometimes makes you a target.
And in a way feels like peopleknow a lot more. And in some
ways, there is a lot more ease.
And in other ways. There's alsoa lot more. Yeah, a lot more
(30:39):
fear, a lot more stress, I thinkfor a lot of us, but it is wild
to think that woah when I cameout as trans it was 20 years
ago, or 20 plus years ago, wheredid the time go? Absolutely.
Yeah, it's it goes so fast andso slow, all at the same time.
(31:01):
And also this idea of transtime. Like, I'm 52, you're
younger, but at the same time,we're kind of very similar trans
generation because of when wecan, right? I even though I was
like, over 10 years older,
Eli Conley (31:16):
it's real. Yes.
Yeah. My husband Kenny. I don'tknow, maybe eight years ago now
and just being like, oh, yeah,how you were accessing support
groups and everything. Youdidn't have to call a phone
number to like, get the addressof where you weren't gonna go?
Which was so scary. Like, shoutout to compass in Boston,
Massachusetts, calling and belike, can I come to your
(31:36):
meeting? Where is it? I guess Ihave to call someone and tell
them that I'm trans.
Alex Iantaffi (31:43):
Oh, my God, that's real. I mean, when I
first came out as queer almost30years ago, when I remember
standing outside, you know, thegay pub in town in the UK, just
wanting to go in but not knowingI was like, how do you do this?
You know, and I stood outsidethat pubs so many times before I
managed to like go inside.
Because, you know, there justwasn't a lot else. Yeah, 30
(32:06):
years ago, when you first cameout, it was like paper ads. And,
you know, there was like onecafe in London. That was queer,
which was wonderful.
Unfortunately, it's closed downsince. And, you know, and then
the were, you know, gay andlesbian clubs. That's, that's
kind of what we had and whereyou want to meet community and
find people.
Eli Conley (32:27):
Yeah, I remember standing outside a little
bookstore in Richmond, Virginia,where I'm from as like a
teenager and just being like, Ireally want Stone Butch Blues. I
feel like they probably have itthere. But I never was able to
go in my friend loaned me hiscopy. Later. But yeah, well,
yeah. Could I didn't have toorder from?
Alex Iantaffi (32:49):
No, there was no online ordering, or it was a lot
harder. Yes, absolutely. Talkingabout you know, we're talking
about cross generational in away, connection and trans
community, that in your album,there's also cross movement,
solidarity, as well as kind ofintergenerational stories that
(33:11):
this cross movement solidarity,and one of the songs is, we keep
each other safe. And I wouldlove to hear from you a little
bit more about what inspiredinspired you to write that song?
Why did it feel important toinclude the song in your album?
Eli Conley (33:31):
Yeah, so we keep each other safe, is a song that
like, imagines a world withoutpolice, like what would safety
look like in a world where weactually did have community
based safety, and not this whitesupremacist, militarized force,
right state funded for someviolence. And it's not like I,
on my own, obviously, I actuallywrote it through very much
(33:55):
inspired by the protests in2020. And the politics that have
pre existed that for a long timethat have been led by black
women around the abolition ofpolicing and prisons more
broadly, I was reallyradicalized around that in
college from my professor atOberlin, Pam Brooks, who taught
a class called, I think it was,like the history of black folks
(34:19):
and incarceration. And we readboth Angela Davis's
autobiography and her book, ourprisons obsolete, and I just
like, you know, completely hadmy mind exploded. And I was
like, Yeah, this is what we needto we need to abolish the prison
industrial complex and like,such a pillar of white supremacy
that needs to fall in order forus to live in a world that works
(34:41):
best for us. All right. And soin 2020, or maybe, yeah, I think
it was summer 2020. Theorganization showing up for
racial justice, which organizeswhite folks around working in
solidarity with People ofColor-led struggles for justice.
put out a call to white artiststo make work specifically
(35:02):
inviting more white people intoracial justice movements
broadly, and specifically, thecalls to defund and abolish the
police that obviously was comingout of the Black Lives Matter
movement. They put out awonderful toolkit that you can
still find online white artistsfor racial justice, and gathered
a bunch of artists acrossdisciplines and across the
(35:24):
country. And in the music group,we read through all the prompts
together and wrote song lyrics.
And like gave each otherfeedback, which I think is so
important, especially when we'redoing political work to really
like, you know, be sharing it ina community of like minded
artists who we can bounce thingsoff of and say, No, that doesn't
sound quite right, or like, oh,yeah, this is great, keep going.
(35:45):
And so ultimately, this songcame out of that project. And I
really intended it to be thislike tone of joyful invitation
to white folks like me to comein and say, you know, what, we
can actually transform thestructures that our ancestors
created, we have that within ourpower to join black led
(36:07):
movements for justice and like,what, how would our lives be
better if we lived in a worldwhere like, if somebody comes in
and steal stuff in your house,they don't just get whisked
away, and like, basicallydisappeared by the state into
prison, right. But what wouldhappen if there was a Community
Safety team who actually showedup, and was like, Oh, you need
(36:28):
money to help feed your kids,let's help you get the resources
you need, so that your familyhas what they need, you can pay
this person back for what youstole. But more importantly,
like that's important, right?
And also, like, you won't haveto do this again, because you'll
have what you need. And I thinksometimes abolition can feel
like this huge, sort ofamorphous abstract concept. But
(36:52):
when we actually really groundedin like, Okay, well, what is
another possibility for what wewould do in an instance of harm,
that actually wouldn't just harmthe person who created harm even
more, but create a situationwhere like, we could actually
have some kind of justice thatwas real and not just revenge.
And that was a beautifulchallenge, do that in a, you
(37:14):
know, three and a half minutesong. When we played in the
studio, I think at firstmusicians were like trying to
play very somber and I was like,no, like, I've written a lot of
sad and angry songs about whitesupremacy. And like, there's a
reason for that. But like, thissong is actually intended to be
like, we can build a betterworld, and like, white people,
like, we can be a part of thatwe don't have to kind of either
(37:38):
just stand on the sidelineswatching or be actively racist,
like we can actually participatein struggles against racism,
because like, it allows us toaccess our humanity much more
deeply when we remember thatwe're not just white. We're like
humans, right. And we've beenconstructed as white. And we
have privileged from that, butthere's so much that we can gain
(38:01):
from being a part of solidarityacross movements. And I think
especially queer and transfolks, like, we have that
opportunity, of course, to seelike we are marginalized in this
culture. So we see the ways thatthe mainstream kind of
constructs power and createsliteral policies that are
impacting our bodies that areharming us, and to actually open
(38:22):
up to like, Oh, we're not theonly people in this position, it
might look a little different.
But there are so many differentpeople who are being harmed in
this culture in the system. Solike, how do we actually band
together and also obviouslyacknowledge, there's lots of
black and people who areindigenous and people of color,
who are also queer and trans,who like, can lead us and tell
them tell us, you know, fromtheir position and what their
(38:45):
knowledge is, but I come from akind of community organizing
background and my work as anartist. In the beginning, I
always would kind of be like,well, how can I do this? How can
I like not be doing all my timeon organizing, like being an
artist is selfish. Buteventually I realized, like,
artists are deeply a part ofcreating culture. And culture
(39:06):
shift is like such a necessarypart of the changes that we
need. It's not either or itreally is both the end and like,
this is what lights me up. AndI'm still absolutely a part of
organizations like surge, butlike, the work that I feel most
deeply called to do is artsbased.
Alex Iantaffi (39:28):
And that transformative work is so
important, because I think it ishard for a lot of people to
imagine it, you know, postabolitionist, like a world you
know, I remember even as a youngperson being you know, an
abolitionist, not only a policebut kind of political, more
(39:49):
people are like you're young andidealistic, you'll change your
mind I was that possible, right?
And then luckily, I found thatthere was a whole movement for I
believe, which was was reallygreat to plug in as a teenager,
but like, and now I'm in my 50s.
And I can be like no, neveroutgrow. This wasn't just wild
fantasy, you know that peoplearound me were like, This is a
(40:12):
wild fantasy, you know, and Iwas like, it's actually not a
lot of Black scholars, I'vethought about it. A lot of
Indigenous scholars have thoughtabout it. And it is possible,
but it's gonna take a lot of,it's going to take a huge
cultural shift, because it'sgoing to be so much more based
in community and relating andconnecting, right, and we live
(40:33):
in, you know, living undercapitalism and white
supremacist. It's all aboutdisconnect. And, you know, and
separation. And so I think it'sso important to have songs and
books and poetry and fictionthat really in science fiction
and speculative fiction, thatinvites us to imagine just a
(40:54):
different way of existing and adifferent way of relating. Yeah,
I have, I could talk about thatfor a while. That's why I was
like, oh, I want to talk aboutthat song, because you have a
lot of themes. But I think thatit's worth highlighting like
that, that there is like crossmovement solidarity. That's
pretty central, like, oh, yeah,
Eli Conley (41:16):
totally, totally, totally.
Alex Iantaffi (41:21):
Yeah, I feel like we could have this conversation
forever. And I want to berespectful of your time. So one
of the last things I wanted totalk about was inspired by one
of the songs on the new album aswell, let them see. And I was
really thinking about this piecearound visibility, and how
visibility can be socomplicated, I think, for a lot
(41:44):
of us who are minoritized, andespecially for trans folks. And
so yeah, I was I was curiousabout what's your relationship
with visibility as a, as an ourtrans artist, and also, you
know, you've been open aboutyour journey with chronic health
issues on social media, youknow, you've been, you know,
you're openly involved withdismantling white supremacy, you
(42:07):
know, with including songs likewe keep each other safe. So
yeah, what's your relationshipwith visibility? And now has
that changed maybe over theyears?
Eli Conley (42:15):
Well, it's interesting that you bring that
up in relation to that song, letthem see me because it's
actually I wrote it. There's onesong on the album that I wrote,
not by myself, I wrote it withmy friend, Pamela macula. And we
were kind of thinking about, asartists, like the kind of, I
have a student who calls it themortifying ordeal of being
perceived. I know you're atherapist. So I was like, Yeah,
(42:42):
I really want to be seen, and Ihate being seen, right? Like,
and we were kind of thinking ofit in that place of like, we
wrote it on Zoom during thepandemic. So when we weren't
performing also, you know, beinglike, do we want to be seen
again, like, what does it meanto be seen in all your
vulnerability, and when you'relike, not sure you're as, quote
(43:03):
unquote, good as other peopleare, that what you're making is
actually valuable. But toactually frame it in terms of
like, trans visibility. It'sreally interesting, because that
is something that I think abouta lot is like, I'm very out as
an artist. And as a teacher, Iteach like music classes for
queer and trans folks andallies. I really want queer and
(43:26):
trans people to be able to findme in my work, both as a teacher
and as an artist. And not everysong I write is like a gay song.
You know, like, I don't actuallyknow that playing at like, a big
city pride stage is like thebest venue for my work. Like,
I'm a kind of sensitivesongwriter who makes you cry,
you know, and like, you know,certainly shout out to the like
(43:49):
country and folk queers who havea tear in their beer in the back
of the Folk club or whatever,like, that's my people. But I
think I do also want to becreating work that is like,
resonant with people, throughand beyond queer and trans
communities. And I think I amlike, people definitely be about
(44:10):
my work not only relating toqueer and trans themes, but
about the like many themes thatI cover. I think it's easy to be
pigeonholed as an artist in acertain way. And yet at the same
time, right now, it feels allthe more important to me to
like, be making art that isunapologetically queer and trans
(44:30):
and be like, kind of creatingthose moments of reflection and
beauty. And the word that'scoming to my head is recreation,
which is not exactly what Imean, but you know, like, joy
for queer and trans folks,because this maybe speaks to the
solidarity piece to like, Ideeply, deeply believe that when
(44:51):
queer and trans people are free,everybody is more free. Just
like Fannie Lou Hamer civilrights organizer said, Write,
nobody's free until everybody'sfree. And so I think my work
only coming more free as a queerand trans man is actually
(45:11):
something that createspossibility for everybody to be
more free. And by making workthat sometimes centers queer and
trans experience, because thatis my experience, it allows
people to kind of, if they'renot from our community, like see
my experience from the inside ina different way, but by also
making work that's about chronicpain, right, or about losing my
(45:33):
grandmother, or about theimagining a world without
police. Those are also ways likethings that are relevant to
queer and trans people, we'reall going to deal with losing
people, we're all going to dealwith living in this world
structured as it is. And so Iactually don't see them as like,
separate kind of the like,visibility as an artist period
(45:55):
and visibility as a queer andtrans person. Obviously, like
you said, it can be a doubleedged sword where we can become
a target when we are morevisible in the world. But I also
think the backlash from thefascists is like, because we
actually are so powerful thatthey are afraid of us. That's
why they're trying to get, youknow, tucking underwear taken
(46:16):
out of target. Right? It'sbecause like, actually, that
trans people having access tobodily autonomy is a like,
radical, beautiful thing that'sbecoming more mainstream, right.
And so I think that's the thingI try to remember is that when
we feel that huge movementagainst us, it's a reaction to
our power, it's not a sign thatwe need to back down, it's
(46:39):
actually a sign that we need to,like, keep moving forward and
being our like, beautiful,freaky, queer and trans selves
in as many ways as we possiblycan and like, lifting each other
up. And I guess that's what Ithink about visibility right
now. Yeah, no,
Alex Iantaffi (46:59):
that's great.
Well, and you know, and I reallythink that when we, you know,
that's the thing about writing,in general, we can speak from
our experience, but there issomething that often touches
people that have a differentexperience, right? That's like,
I think that's the power ofwriting, whether it's writing a
book, writing a song, writing apoem, or even like a painting,
(47:20):
right, we can go from such aspecific experience, but then
there is something that touchesother people. And I love what
you said about our power,because in a way, we are
powerful as being trans folks,in terms of body autonomy,
right. And I think that fascistsare very scared of body autonomy
right? I remember being at myoldest kids school when she was
(47:42):
laid on this tiny young person,you know, maybe six or seven
year old was like, Are you a boyand I was like, No, are you a
girl? And I was like, No, andthey were like, you've got to be
one and I was like, I actuallydon't you do know that you can
decide who you are. And I waslike, I'm a bit of a girl and a
bit of a boy or for neither youknow you depending on the day
(48:03):
and they were just like, okay,when you see the little like
gears you know going and I waslike when you were talking about
that I have that memory and Ithought yes we are friends yeah.
Because in a way that's like ifwe can have this body autonomy
if we can have this freedom tobe ourselves what else is gonna
question right control andfascism is all about control.
(48:27):
And so if we body autonomy isthe opposite, I think of control
in a way so yeah, and and Ithink that then when you add
being an artist on top of beingtrans and queer, that's more of
a threat. Because now you're notonly a body autonomy, but you're
inviting people into this worldof creativity right which is
(48:50):
also threat I don't know.
Eli Conley (48:54):
just love those thoughts and as somebody who's
like, you know a thing or twoabout fascism I know
Alex Iantaffi (49:01):
Yeah, I mean, I was brought up with like stories
and fascism. You know, mygrandmother my school teacher
was very alive that not wantingto go back there. Unfortunately,
it seems that people in mycountry though so you will have
the time to sing a song for youor press that'd be great. So
(49:25):
yeah, given that we've beentalking about your songs and let
them see I would love if you hadthe capacity for it for you to
sing.
Eli Conley (49:45):
Gotta put on a Full Face of makeup, gotta match my
earrings to my belt. I gottastyle my hair just right. It's
time to scroll my phone whilemaking breakfast Perfect
(50:19):
pictures flashing by I choose afilter for my post. I pick the
one that hides trying to lookbetter than myself to let them
see cause I that I would measurethem see this being me is never
(50:52):
why I sit down at the table withmy notebook and my pen I write
what's on my heart that peoplecare about my shot better than
(51:18):
my camera let them see when Idon't that I would measure up
can I let them see when B isnever why What if I die? No.
(51:47):
Song would I have been here atall? What if the cost of stay in
hidden is greater than luring?
Only the folks never fly neverfall? Gonna let them see me if I
(52:08):
measure them to let them see meit's actually me and me is
actually
Alex Iantaffi (52:45):
what a beautiful way to end now you got me teary
eyed. People are listening andnot watching I"m like
Eli Conley (52:54):
I didn't hear you.
But I think you said somethingabout.
Alex Iantaffi (52:58):
Yeah. Like, as like for folks are not watching.
Like I'm definitely teary eyed!You know if they're listening.
Well, thank you. That is sobeautiful. Like, I love your
songs. And what a treat to haveyou share one of your songs with
our listeners. Thank you. I knowwe're wrapping up. Is there
(53:20):
anything we haven't talked aboutthat you really wanted to share
with people or not? And if not,that's okay.
Eli Conley (53:27):
I'll just say the record "Searching for what's
true" comes out July 14, so onall the streaming platforms
then. And if you're interestedin checking out some songwriting
or singing classes with me, justcheck out my website
eliconley.com. And I teachclasses online. So I work with
folks all over and yeah, justbig, big thank you to you, Alex.
(53:49):
I am a fan of your podcast. Ilistened to it. And so it's such
a treat to get to be on here,thank you for having me.
Alex Iantaffi (53:59):
Oh my god, you're so welcome. I'm such a fan of
your music. So this is like, youknow a very happy, very happy
episode for me. I'm so glad thatyou were like, oh, let's do
this. Yeah, so I will put yourwebsite on the episode
description as well. But yourlisteners and our viewers as
well, because the podcast isalso on YouTube. You can go and
(54:22):
follow Eli right now on the anystreaming platform, right,
Spotify or wherever peoplelisten to their music. They can
probably find your music as theyget ready for your beautiful new
album which will be released onJuly 14. So very shortly. Thank
you so much again for being onthe podcast and making the time.
Eli Conley (54:45):
You have a great rest of your day.
There's a whole lot of things I want to tell you
about. Adventures dangerous andqueer. Some you cna gues adn
some I"ve only hinted at, soplease lend me your ear.
Narrator (00:26):
Everyone has a relationship with gender. What's
your story? Hello and welcome toGender stories with your host,
Dr. Alex Iantaffi.
Alex Iantaffi (00:37):
Hello and welcome to another episode of gender
stories as ever, I'm delightedI'm excited. I know I say that
every time but I truly am everytime to be here with Eli Conley
today. Eli is an indie folksinger songwriter, teaching
artist, and activist based onMiwok and Nisenan land currently
known as Sacramento, California.
It makes music for queer andtrans folks, Justice seekers,
(00:58):
and anyone who doesn't fiteasily in a box. Eli's voice is
tender and heartfelt, withmelodies that can leave you
teary eyed yet hopeful as aqueer transgender man from the
south is songs tell stories thataren't always reflected in roots
music. Eli founded Queer CountryWest Coast, a regular series
(01:18):
feed featuring LGBTQ plus blues,folk and country artists in
California. He has open forCarsey Blanton, Heather May and
Grammy winner Kimya Dawson, andbeen featured in the Huffington
Post and the advocate. Eli'sthird album "Searching for
What's True" is coming in July2023. And it has themes of
uncertainty, ache and loss thatcome up again and again. The
(01:44):
songs are drawn from theconcrete and immediate details
of daily life, a stuffed animalclutched in a child's arms, a
colorful sunset after a forestfire, a Confederate statue
toppling to the ground Searchingfor What's True is Eli's first
released since being diagnosedwith a serious repetitive stress
injury that forced him to stopplaying music for many months.
(02:05):
After the surgery and carefulrehab, he came back to
Songwriting with a renewed senseof purpose on the albums for
single making something new, itdescribes the work of an artist
as finding beauty in thewreckage, making meaning of the
grief, when we tell our storiestrue, we find release. His deep
belief in the transformativepower creativity stems not only
(02:27):
from his own experiences but hismany years leading singing and
songwriting classes for queerand transgender people and
allies. And in fact, Eli and Imet at the Trans Voices Festival
back in Minneapolis, where youare both performing and teaching
and lovely workshop. And then Itook most of one of your
(02:48):
classes, and then I like lifegot too much. And my health got
a little bit too much. So I hadto drop off that has been so
wonderful to see you perform andalso see you teach you truly
have such a love of nurturingcreativity in others. I think
that is really infectious. Andso yeah, I'm really excited that
(03:11):
you're here on gender stories.
Thank you.
Eli Conley (03:15):
Yeah, Alex, thank you so much. It's really good to
be here with you and get toconnect with you in this way. I
really loved having you as astudent and now getting to be on
the interviewee side with you.
Alex Iantaffi (03:28):
Absolutely. I want to really start from that
sentence actually finding beautyin the wreckage that is in one
of your songs. And at themoment, there's a lot of
wreckage, I think for transfolks. And so what does that
kind of? Where does that linecome from? And how do you find
that beauty in the wreckage ofthe moment in your life?
Eli Conley (03:50):
Hmm. You know, that line is in the title song of the
album, The album's calledsearching for what's true. And
the song is called Makingsomething new. And it comes from
the bridge that was not in thesong originally. But I was kind
of writing the song playing withthe idea of the connections
(04:10):
between the way that artists aregrappling with creativity in
lots of different ways. And theway that queer and trans folks
are also like, I thinkinherently creative. Because
when you have realized who youare in a world that tells you
you're one thing and then you'relike, wait a minute, actually,
the truth about my gender andsexuality is something else. I
(04:31):
think it can open us up torealizing that like so many
things are up for grabs, and wecan like create ourselves and
create a lot of beautifulthings. So just come back to
your question. I think one waythat I grapple with the work
that is my work as a artist,both a teaching artist and our
(04:51):
performing artist right now isthat actually when times are
really rough is one of the timesthat we need beauty and we need
art the most we need things thatare going to lift us up and help
remind us that we are human andthat we are more than just you
know what the right wing and themedia is saying we are as queer
(05:13):
and trans folks are asmarginalized folks broadly,
because we know we're not theonly ones under attack. And so
for me, certainly my creativepractice is part of how I
actually create that spacewithin my life, do deep self
care for myself and throughexploring, like, Okay, what is
something that is reallyexciting or beautiful or
(05:35):
compelling for me right now. AndI also see that in my community,
like reminding myself when Ikind of get the tunnel vision
of, you know, scrolling on thescreen, or looking at the news,
which I tried to, you know, doand measured about actually
being like, who is in my life,what is the care and love and
(05:55):
like beautiful queerness and joythat is around me all the time,
if I just kind of opened my eyesup to the people who are close
to me, even when we'restruggling, that's a lot of the
place that like, I personallyfind a lot of a lot of joy.
Alex Iantaffi (06:12):
That's beautiful.
I love that. And I think we doneed Joy more than ever, even
though in the album, which I hadthe privilege to kind of get a
little preview of, and I'm soexcited. There are a lot of
themes of loss and pain. And,and I do wonder how much of that
has come out of you know, we've,we've been in a pandemic for
(06:32):
three years, there's also beenkind of an epidemic and an
uprising. And for a moment itlooked like maybe even a shift
towards abolition, you know, andthen kind of that kind of died
down. And then you also dealtindividually with chronic health
issues. And so how much kind ofall those things kind of
informed the album as well.
Eli Conley (06:54):
Yeah, so I really started writing this record in
2018 kind of pre pandemic, butpost Trump just to place it in
time. We're not we're definitelydealing with fascism, we were
not yet dealing with COVID-19.
Because my last record was in2017. And, and this is really a
(07:14):
culmination of what I think arethe best songs that I've written
in the past number of years. Butthrough that time, in 2019, I
got this repetitive stressinjury in both my wrists
actually from being on tour, andjust playing gigs that were, you
know, two hours long to makemoney. Sometimes I'll play
background music gigs. And Icame home and I was in a lot of
(07:37):
pain that I'd been ignoring. ButI finally went to the doctor and
was diagnosed with this. It'scalled decware veins syndrome,
similar to carpal tunnel, butlike on the other side of the
wrist. And basically, at thattime, I had to completely stop
playing guitar. And I teachvoice, my kind of day job is I'm
a voice teacher. I also teachsongwriting. And I also had to
(08:01):
take some time off from playingpiano and teaching voice. And so
I kind of had this vacuumsuddenly, that a lot of people
had in 2021, like theirlivelihood, particularly those
of us who were not essentialworkers was taken away, or
really shifted. But for me in2019, suddenly, I was in this
big question of who am I if I'mnot making music, who am I if
(08:23):
I'm not able to playinstruments, and I was really a
singer first before I ever cameto being an instrumentalist, but
you know, I've had some journeyswith my voice as a trans person.
And in that moment, one of theways that I started writing
music is I actually came back tovoice only songs. I wrote some
(08:43):
songs inspired by the uprisingin 2020. My friend Talia Cooper,
and I wrote a song called it'sgoing to come to me. Nope, it's
gone. I'll think of it later, wewrote a song, we wrote a song,
specifically calling out tofellow white folks around taking
(09:05):
action for the movement forblack lives. That was like a
call and response song. Andcoming back to kind of writing
voice only songs is a reallypowerful way to realize like,
I'm always going to be amusician, I'm always going to be
a songwriter. You know, I'velearned a lot from disability
justice movement and friendswith disabilities that like, we
are not, you know, ourproductivity, right are like our
(09:29):
bodies and the way we use ourbodies and the ways that we need
care is going to shift for allof us over our lifetime. But
that was a quick moment ofchange for me. And so I think
the songs that I wrote posthaving to take time off from
making music physically with aninstrument like they did kind of
have this different urgency orlike wheat to them. There's a
(09:52):
song on the record called Idon't want to hurt that I wrote
down the Oakland Hills just Ialmost kind of Scream singing, I
don't want to hurt anymore. Andeventually, when I was able to
come back to guitar with helpfrom wrist surgery and hand
therapy, and, you know, verycareful playing, I'm still very
careful these days. I was ableto add guitar underneath them.
(10:16):
But yeah, I will also say, evenprior to 2018, I've been a kind
of serious, sad songwriter. Butmaybe the times caught up with
my art. I don't really know.
There's also a song about queerastronauts. So you know, you
never know.
Alex Iantaffi (10:36):
I know, I kinda love that I was listening. And I
was like, is this song aboutqueer astronauts? And I was
like, yes.
Astronauts, yeah. Okay.
Great. But it was kind of Yes,usually have so much more kind
of everyday moments, right?
Yeah, they took me a minute. Iwas like, we're in space. It
(10:57):
just seemed to diverge a littlefrom your canon And
Eli Conley (11:05):
it's very unexpected. Your average folk
song is not about astronauts.
But you know, sometimes thosethings come true. I tried really
hard to make it a metaphor forsomething. And the astronauts in
the song, were just like, Nope,we're just gay astronauts in
space. No, it's like, Alright,I'm gonna let you be who you
are.
Alex Iantaffi (11:23):
Like, I love that, because actually, just
recently, I've had so manyconversations about how so many
trans folks love science fictionand fantasy. You know, and I've
just been to right, I've justbeen at Wiscon, which is the
feminist Science FictionConvention, that has been
happening for like, 46 years.
Yeah, this was Wiscon 46. And Ithink there's something about
(11:44):
space and the possibilities ofspace that have inspired a lot
of trans queer folks. And so itwas actually delightful than
there's a song about queerastronauts in your album. I
thought it was great.
Eli Conley (11:59):
Thank you. Yeah, you know, my very first record, I
had a song about a mythologicalGreek siren like leaving her
perch on the rocks to be a rockstar. I think just for whatever
reason, I like have little bitsof speculative stuff kind of
come in here and there. Andactually, there's this book that
I love. I mean, look up thetitle of it on my bookshelf. Oh,
(12:20):
yeah, I don't know if you'veread it's called "Meanwhile,
Elsewhere", but it'sspecifically all know short
stories, speculative fiction bytrans and non binary authors
highly recommend it and whileelsewhere, write it down, it's
so good. And my favorite authoris actually Ursula Le Guin. And
I've read almost everything byher. But
Alex Iantaffi (12:40):
she's the best.
you know, I think as a queer andtrans person who like makes
country and folk music,sometimes people think there's
like a big clash between thosetwo things. So they can't
coexist. And in a way, it almostfeels similar of like, who says,
You can't write a folk songabout queer astronauts, you
know, there's queer people inthe future. There's queer people
in the past, like, all of thesethings can coexist at the same
(13:02):
time. Yeah, and I think that'sone of the beautiful things
actually about being asongwriter. It's a little bit
like being a poet, where eachpiece you're making is actually
pretty short. And then yougather them together into this
bigger thing. But it's verydifferent from writing, say, a
novel, or, I don't know, amovie, like I can kind of when
(13:24):
I'm crafting a set, and I'mplaying live, think about like,
Okay, I'll have the tearjerkers,but like, Let me have a moment
of lightness, or a moment oflevity in the middle and kind
of, I think sometimes people arelike, not sure if they're
allowed to laugh at my shows,like, intentionally funny,
you are allowed to be sad. Yeah.
Like,
Eli Conley (13:45):
I take it as a compliment when people cry at my
music, but also, there will bemoments of like, hopefully, joy
and laughter, too.
Alex Iantaffi (13:56):
I love that. And you mentioned a little bit as
well, that you you know, you hadyour own journeys as a trans
artist and singer, especiallywith your voice. And I know that
actually, that is something thata lot of trans folks who are
singers or really enjoy theirvoice, especially if they're
going from an estrogen dominantbody to a testosterone dominant
(14:18):
body. They worry right aboutthat impact on singing voice.
Or, you know, if they're youngerfolks who are testosterone
dominant, wanting to move to anestrogen dominant body. You
know, puberty suppression is soimportant to preserve that kind
of higher pitched voice, right,that otherwise kind of
testosterone is going to change.
And so in either direction, Ithink that there's concerns
(14:39):
around voice. Yeah. Do you ifyou want to, could you share a
little bit about your journeyand what helped you kind of with
journeying through the changesin your voice? Yeah.
Eli Conley (14:55):
So I transitioned almost 17 years ago, which is
kind of wild. Oh, But in 2006, Iwas 20. And at the time, pretty
much all the information outthere said you take testosterone
and can't sing anymore, justlike period. Yeah, I remember
all the stuff I could find bothanecdotally and you know, just
on whatever it was Live Journalat the time. This was even pre
(15:20):
YouTube days, not that I'm thatold.
Alex Iantaffi (15:22):
That's when I started transitioning, I was
like, Yeah, I think you'relittle younger.
Eli Conley (15:30):
mean, same transition, or, you know, trans
generation. Yeah, I know. It'sweird. The generations like,
when did you come out? How oldare you?
Alex Iantaffi (15:37):
I think we're the same trans age. But
Eli Conley (15:40):
yeah, I'm 37. But yeah, so I transitioned in
college. And my journey in anutshell was, I kind of was
realizing that I was not a girlin high school, and initially
sort of came out as genderqueer,or what we might call non binary
today. And then it was reallyimportant to me, when I decided
(16:02):
to start hormones and eventuallyhave top surgery to kind of make
those decisions independent ofidentity in a way. And like,
eventually, I did startidentifying as male, but I
didn't, it was reallypolitically and personally
important to me that it wasn'tjust like, Well, I'm a dude. So
I'm going to take T and have topsurgery, I was like, you know,
each of these things is anindependent decision that is
(16:23):
related. But I put off hormonesfor maybe a year because of fear
around my voice changing becauseI was very identified as a
singer grew up, singing my wholelife. I was taking, I was not a
voice major, but I was takingvoice lessons at the school
where I went. And knew I wantedto be a performer in a serious
(16:46):
way. And I'm very thankful thatas I transitioned, I had a
couple other students who werelike opera majors at the school
where I went, you know, Ohio,who worked with me, and they've
never worked with trans folks.
But they were just like, well, Ican be an outside ear and like,
help listen and track your rangeas it changes. And for whatever
reason, I think, maybe acombination of being young, and
(17:07):
also that I was exercising myvoice really all through that
change, like it was challenging,took a couple years to fully
settled, but I was able to gofrom like high soprano to
eventually high tenor, and keepsinging. And that's a big reason
that I became a voice teacherafter college is because we
needed so many more resourcesaround singing and testosterone
(17:32):
and specifically, but alsosinging in gender and trans and
non binary folks more broadly.
And I wanted to be a resourcearound that. And now it's 17
years later. And I've workedwith probably hundreds of trans
and non binary singers throughtransition. And you know, plenty
of folks who are nottransitioning, like that looks
very different for everybody.
But the working with folks whoare on testosterone or thinking
(17:57):
about it is a big piece of mywork as a teacher. And honestly,
I've had some vocal challengesin the last four or five years.
And I don't know if they'rerelated to long term
testosterone or not, we don'thave research on long term
effects of hormones onprofessional singers. If you are
listening, and you want to dothat research, please do we need
(18:17):
it. But say that in the past fewyears, I learned a new teaching
technique that involves changinga little bit and doing a little
more what's called belting,which is using your kind of
speaking range up higher. Itried to do some of that on my
own, and I kind of tied myselfin some knots. But thankfully,
(18:38):
I've been working with theteacher who created this
technique to like, get throughthat on the other side. So all
that is to say my voice today islike not as easy and effortless
as it was when I was 15 or evenwhen I was 25 post T but it
feels a lot better than it didfive years ago. And I think also
like aging changes our voice,right? It's another way that
(19:01):
like, I feel like I try to learnfrom my friends and comrades
with disabilities and just belike, You know what, I can't
count on my body being the sameday and day to day and like how
do I love my body and be with itas it is and like, make art in
the moment with what I haverather than kind of wishing for
some sort of ideal voice orsomething. But I think it's
(19:23):
honestly made me a betterteacher. Because singing is not
as effortless as it used to be.
I do have to like work and warmup and, you know, be more
thoughtful about how I use myvoice these days.
Alex Iantaffi (19:38):
That makes a lot of sense to me. I have friends
who are singers likeprofessional singers and we're
older. You know, I mean my 50s Ihave a friend who was in her 60s
and she talked about how hervoice is changing and it's it is
more effortful to perform alsoto do concerts, you know, still
a beautiful voice but like justthe the care. Yep, that we need
(20:01):
to put into our body as we getolder, always. And then if
they're, you know, if we'redisabled, I think it's a little
bit extra effort. But I love howyour journey really speaks to
just that creativity or transfolks that you were talking
about at the beginning, right?
You're like, yeah, this makes menervous, you know, you waited,
but then you're like, Okay,we're doing this, and you
recruited people who couldsupport you. And then you took
(20:23):
all those things that you'velearned, and really put them
into supporting people? Becauseyeah, I remember, you know, in
the early to mid 2000s, therewas just nothing in terms of
resources, you know, and bothfor myself, but I also had
clients as a therapist who werelike, what about my voice? And I
was like, Oh, you can go to aspeech and language therapist,
(20:44):
but I don't really know what'sgoing to happen to your singing
voice, right? If there was alove of singing, and, and I
really think it speaks to ourcreativity, that there are
actually so many trans singersand artists who have navigated
those changes totally, in everydirection, you know? Yeah, you
know, and I think there are somany people in so many different
(21:07):
genres, too. You know, I thinkabout Venus de Mars here in
Minnesota was much more like, Idon't know if she would say,
punk rock. I'm not very goodwith genres. Sometimes, you
know, but all the way to, like,you know, more thoughtful can
country and I just love that wereally have so many trans and
(21:30):
non binary singers now, comparedto like, 20 years ago. I don't
remember having trans singershaving this much visibility, do
you when you first came out?
Eli Conley (21:42):
When I was first coming out 20 years ago. In
Yeah.
those early years, there wasJosh clip, who's like a kind of
crooner jazz singer in SanFrancisco. And there's Joe
Stevens, who I now am friendswith, he lives in Sacramento.
And he was in a band calledCoyote Grace, who are more sort
of my genre like Americanacountry folk, Miguel Flores,
(22:04):
who's also a kind of Americanasongwriter in San Francisco.
Yeah. But you know, I moved tothe Bay, and that's where all
those people were. And so I metthem, because it's a small
world.
Alex Iantaffi (22:15):
Absolutely, yeah.
I'm looking at a Coyote Graceposter.
Eli Conley (22:19):
Oh, they're so good.
Alex Iantaffi (22:20):
I was like, I literally have a poster of
Coyote Grace.
Eli Conley (22:23):
Yeah. Well, that was so beautiful, right. Like, I
think for folks who maybeweren't out or are younger,
might not know, like, at thetime, finding an out trans
singer and specific, especiallysomebody who was like, on
testosterone, and like singingprofessionally was like huge,
and coyote grace. You know,people would travel for hours to
(22:44):
go see their shows, yes, in theearly 2000s. Because it was
like, Oh my gosh, this couplelike queer cis femme and like
trans guy who are like, makingmusic about this experience. And
like being open about that. Ireally feel like they paved the
way or made the path is maybe abetter word for folks like me
who came a little bit after. AndI think like, in the generations
(23:08):
of like queer and trans artists,right, like each of us by
stepping into our power andsharing our art is making space
for who comes after us. And somuch gratitude to them. And it's
not like they're gone. They'restill making music to this day.
Ingrid Elizabeth from that bandis now in a band called Mouths
of Babes. That's really awesome.
Joe Stevens is writing musicals.
(23:32):
So but yeah, just the like, wecan count them on one hand,
probably the people who are likein the public eye at that time.
And now I feel like every day,I'm finding out about more queer
and trans singers. And that'sjust like, really beautiful to
me. Like, it's still I stillhave students who come to me and
are like, I don't even know whata trans singer could sound like,
(23:52):
like, what could my voice be?
But, you know, you can goSpotify and find like, a bunch
of playlists of trans singers,which is like, Yes, always, we
need more. And we need morefolks kind of reaching the
mainstream, because you have todig a little deeper, but I'm
really thankful, as somebody whohas been doing this work for a
minute. Yeah, but I don't feelas alone anymore, either, as a
(24:15):
voice teacher specializing intrans voice. And also as a
performer, like both of thosethings, I find I have a lot more
community these days in thatwork. And it also makes me feel
maybe counter intuitively, likeI don't always have to center
transness and everything I do,because there's like, enough
people doing this work that Iget to be a more nuanced human a
(24:35):
little bit, which is like, alsonice, honestly, you know?
Alex Iantaffi (24:42):
Oh, absolutely. I relate to that so much, because
I remember even you know, as afamily therapist, not a lot
about trans family therapists 20years ago, you know, at one
point, I think I was the onlyout trans clinical supervisor
that I knew. Yeah, familytherapy, right. And now there
are so many people Well, I waslike, I don't even have to talk
about gender anymore when I'lljust talk about disability or
(25:04):
something else. Yeah. Becausethere's more people, right?
Whereas before, it's like, oh,it's like, Can you do it, you
know, trans 101 if you have sometime. And it does get a little
tiring. And so it's so wonderfulthat there are so many more
people. Exactly. And you don'thave to kind of center that so
much. I do think that you dosell really value sharing
(25:26):
stories now just by yourself,but about trans folks, you know,
and one of the songs in your newalbum is, hey, that's me. Right?
And that could speak, I think,to so many different aspects of
the trans experience. Thank you.
Yeah. Do you want to share alittle bit more about that song?
But also, what does it mean foryou to be a trans an out trans
artist with many people in youraudience, your listeners who are
(25:53):
also trans, although notexclusively? Of course, yeah.
Eli Conley (25:59):
That would be kind of wild. If only trans people
listen to me. You can only seeme like that. What is the filter
on OkCupid? Like, I don't wantto be seen by straight people.
Probably did. That's where I metmy husband, I was not swiping
apps. was about hey, that's me.
So yeah, this is a song that Iwrote. Thinking about actually a
(26:23):
young, non binary trans musicianwho I know who is first kind of
coming out for startingtestosterone. And I was just
thinking about, like, you know,I have been out for almost 20
years at that point. Now, it hasbeen 20 years. And like, what
did I want to say to somebodywho is in that position in a
(26:46):
similar age as I was in college,when they were like coming out.
And so the first verse is kindof addressing, it says, like,
there may come a time when yourbody don't feel easy. And in
order to be free, it has tochange, there may come a time
when your gender, it justfractures, and you have to take
some action rearrange. And Ireally wanted to speak to that
(27:12):
just like this may happen to youat some point. And, and it can
be something that is reallysurprising. But like, if you are
in that moment, it's also achance to share with the world
with and with yourself, like whoyou really are, who you're
finding out yourself to be. Andso in that first chorus, hey,
(27:34):
that's me is kind of like, hey,that's who I always hoped that I
would be, like, finally gettingto show that to the world,
figuring it out for myself, Ithink a lot of those of us
whether it's social transition,medical transition, like
transition can look sodifferent. And also, not all
trans people do transition,right, but, but when you step
into that moment of kind ofsaying, I am going to shift how
(27:56):
I present myself, maybe whatpronouns I use, it can be this
beautiful moment of recognition,they're sort of the like, iconic
image of a trans person lookingthemselves in the mirror, right?
But like, it's iconic, becauseit's also true that when you
start to actually outwardlyexpress who you are more, so
there's like a joy in thatrecognition. And then the second
(28:16):
verse talks specifically aboutvoice and, and what happens if
you do find your voice kind ofunrecognizable, or like the
difficulty of singing songs thatmaybe were really familiar to
you, this person I was writingto as a songwriter. And speaking
from my personal experience,both as someone who had gone
(28:38):
through vocal change, and thenat the time I was writing, the
song was kind of grappling newlywith, whether it's aging, or how
it was using my voice, thingsnot coming as easily. And so in
that one, hey, that's me as kindof being like, Hey, this is what
I've tried to do, you know,like, tried to keep singing and
find my way to loving my voice,even through all the changes.
And then the last verse is aboutkind of, eventually, as we get
(29:03):
older, I use this metaphor oflike, holding out your umbrella
for the young. And not that I'mthat old, you know, I'm not
quite middle aged yet. But atthe same time, it does sometimes
feel like trans generations arelike five years long, you know,
it was like, we were the LiveJournal. And then there was the
Tumblr and Youtube generationand like, that's probably the
(29:23):
TikTok generation. But the, theway that as you do become, you
know, old been out for longer,it is an opportunity to like
create space and care for folkswho are coming behind you. And
kind of speaking to this personand being like, you're gonna be
in my shoes someday. 20 yearsfrom now, you will have been out
for 20 years and you can likecare for young folks. And so
(29:45):
that's also for myself thinkingas I become older, like that's
how I hope that I continue tobe. So yeah, through writing
that song, I got to grapple alot with thinking about queer
generations and aging and whatit means to both be not not that
old, but not that young anymore,either, you know, I am coming
(30:06):
into middle age at a particulartime when also transness is
under the microscope in a waythat it really wasn't when I was
first coming out.
Alex Iantaffi (30:16):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, in a way, that kind oftrans tipping point, you know,
if we go with that iconic Coxcover cover of Laverne Cox,
exactly. Yes, more visibility,but also kind of visibility
sometimes makes you a target.
And in a way feels like peopleknow a lot more. And in some
ways, there is a lot more ease.
And in other ways. There's alsoa lot more. Yeah, a lot more
(30:39):
fear, a lot more stress, I thinkfor a lot of us, but it is wild
to think that woah when I cameout as trans it was 20 years
ago, or 20 plus years ago, wheredid the time go? Absolutely.
Yeah, it's it goes so fast andso slow, all at the same time.
(31:01):
And also this idea of transtime. Like, I'm 52, you're
younger, but at the same time,we're kind of very similar trans
generation because of when wecan, right? I even though I was
like, over 10 years older,
Eli Conley (31:16):
it's real. Yes.
Yeah. My husband Kenny. I don'tknow, maybe eight years ago now
and just being like, oh, yeah,how you were accessing support
groups and everything. Youdidn't have to call a phone
number to like, get the addressof where you weren't gonna go?
Which was so scary. Like, shoutout to compass in Boston,
Massachusetts, calling and belike, can I come to your
(31:36):
meeting? Where is it? I guess Ihave to call someone and tell
them that I'm trans.
Alex Iantaffi (31:43):
Oh, my God, that's real. I mean, when I
first came out as queer almost30years ago, when I remember
standing outside, you know, thegay pub in town in the UK, just
wanting to go in but not knowingI was like, how do you do this?
You know, and I stood outsidethat pubs so many times before I
managed to like go inside.
Because, you know, there justwasn't a lot else. Yeah, 30
(32:06):
years ago, when you first cameout, it was like paper ads. And,
you know, there was like onecafe in London. That was queer,
which was wonderful.
Unfortunately, it's closed downsince. And, you know, and then
the were, you know, gay andlesbian clubs. That's, that's
kind of what we had and whereyou want to meet community and
find people.
Eli Conley (32:27):
Yeah, I remember standing outside a little
bookstore in Richmond, Virginia,where I'm from as like a
teenager and just being like, Ireally want Stone Butch Blues. I
feel like they probably have itthere. But I never was able to
go in my friend loaned me hiscopy. Later. But yeah, well,
yeah. Could I didn't have toorder from?
Alex Iantaffi (32:49):
No, there was no online ordering, or it was a lot
harder. Yes, absolutely. Talkingabout you know, we're talking
about cross generational in away, connection and trans
community, that in your album,there's also cross movement,
solidarity, as well as kind ofintergenerational stories that
(33:11):
this cross movement solidarity,and one of the songs is, we keep
each other safe. And I wouldlove to hear from you a little
bit more about what inspiredinspired you to write that song?
Why did it feel important toinclude the song in your album?
Eli Conley (33:31):
Yeah, so we keep each other safe, is a song that
like, imagines a world withoutpolice, like what would safety
look like in a world where weactually did have community
based safety, and not this whitesupremacist, militarized force,
right state funded for someviolence. And it's not like I,
on my own, obviously, I actuallywrote it through very much
(33:55):
inspired by the protests in2020. And the politics that have
pre existed that for a long timethat have been led by black
women around the abolition ofpolicing and prisons more
broadly, I was reallyradicalized around that in
college from my professor atOberlin, Pam Brooks, who taught
a class called, I think it was,like the history of black folks
(34:19):
and incarceration. And we readboth Angela Davis's
autobiography and her book, ourprisons obsolete, and I just
like, you know, completely hadmy mind exploded. And I was
like, Yeah, this is what we needto we need to abolish the prison
industrial complex and like,such a pillar of white supremacy
that needs to fall in order forus to live in a world that works
(34:41):
best for us. All right. And soin 2020, or maybe, yeah, I think
it was summer 2020. Theorganization showing up for
racial justice, which organizeswhite folks around working in
solidarity with People ofColor-led struggles for justice.
put out a call to white artiststo make work specifically
(35:02):
inviting more white people intoracial justice movements
broadly, and specifically, thecalls to defund and abolish the
police that obviously was comingout of the Black Lives Matter
movement. They put out awonderful toolkit that you can
still find online white artistsfor racial justice, and gathered
a bunch of artists acrossdisciplines and across the
(35:24):
country. And in the music group,we read through all the prompts
together and wrote song lyrics.
And like gave each otherfeedback, which I think is so
important, especially when we'redoing political work to really
like, you know, be sharing it ina community of like minded
artists who we can bounce thingsoff of and say, No, that doesn't
sound quite right, or like, oh,yeah, this is great, keep going.
(35:45):
And so ultimately, this songcame out of that project. And I
really intended it to be thislike tone of joyful invitation
to white folks like me to comein and say, you know, what, we
can actually transform thestructures that our ancestors
created, we have that within ourpower to join black led
(36:07):
movements for justice and like,what, how would our lives be
better if we lived in a worldwhere like, if somebody comes in
and steal stuff in your house,they don't just get whisked
away, and like, basicallydisappeared by the state into
prison, right. But what wouldhappen if there was a Community
Safety team who actually showedup, and was like, Oh, you need
(36:28):
money to help feed your kids,let's help you get the resources
you need, so that your familyhas what they need, you can pay
this person back for what youstole. But more importantly,
like that's important, right?
And also, like, you won't haveto do this again, because you'll
have what you need. And I thinksometimes abolition can feel
like this huge, sort ofamorphous abstract concept. But
(36:52):
when we actually really groundedin like, Okay, well, what is
another possibility for what wewould do in an instance of harm,
that actually wouldn't just harmthe person who created harm even
more, but create a situationwhere like, we could actually
have some kind of justice thatwas real and not just revenge.
And that was a beautifulchallenge, do that in a, you
(37:14):
know, three and a half minutesong. When we played in the
studio, I think at firstmusicians were like trying to
play very somber and I was like,no, like, I've written a lot of
sad and angry songs about whitesupremacy. And like, there's a
reason for that. But like, thissong is actually intended to be
like, we can build a betterworld, and like, white people,
like, we can be a part of thatwe don't have to kind of either
(37:38):
just stand on the sidelineswatching or be actively racist,
like we can actually participatein struggles against racism,
because like, it allows us toaccess our humanity much more
deeply when we remember thatwe're not just white. We're like
humans, right. And we've beenconstructed as white. And we
have privileged from that, butthere's so much that we can gain
(38:01):
from being a part of solidarityacross movements. And I think
especially queer and transfolks, like, we have that
opportunity, of course, to seelike we are marginalized in this
culture. So we see the ways thatthe mainstream kind of
constructs power and createsliteral policies that are
impacting our bodies that areharming us, and to actually open
(38:22):
up to like, Oh, we're not theonly people in this position, it
might look a little different.
But there are so many differentpeople who are being harmed in
this culture in the system. Solike, how do we actually band
together and also obviouslyacknowledge, there's lots of
black and people who areindigenous and people of color,
who are also queer and trans,who like, can lead us and tell
them tell us, you know, fromtheir position and what their
(38:45):
knowledge is, but I come from akind of community organizing
background and my work as anartist. In the beginning, I
always would kind of be like,well, how can I do this? How can
I like not be doing all my timeon organizing, like being an
artist is selfish. Buteventually I realized, like,
artists are deeply a part ofcreating culture. And culture
(39:06):
shift is like such a necessarypart of the changes that we
need. It's not either or itreally is both the end and like,
this is what lights me up. AndI'm still absolutely a part of
organizations like surge, butlike, the work that I feel most
deeply called to do is artsbased.
Alex Iantaffi (39:28):
And that transformative work is so
important, because I think it ishard for a lot of people to
imagine it, you know, postabolitionist, like a world you
know, I remember even as a youngperson being you know, an
abolitionist, not only a policebut kind of political, more
(39:49):
people are like you're young andidealistic, you'll change your
mind I was that possible, right?
And then luckily, I found thatthere was a whole movement for I
believe, which was was reallygreat to plug in as a teenager,
but like, and now I'm in my 50s.
And I can be like no, neveroutgrow. This wasn't just wild
fantasy, you know that peoplearound me were like, This is a
(40:12):
wild fantasy, you know, and Iwas like, it's actually not a
lot of Black scholars, I'vethought about it. A lot of
Indigenous scholars have thoughtabout it. And it is possible,
but it's gonna take a lot of,it's going to take a huge
cultural shift, because it'sgoing to be so much more based
in community and relating andconnecting, right, and we live
(40:33):
in, you know, living undercapitalism and white
supremacist. It's all aboutdisconnect. And, you know, and
separation. And so I think it'sso important to have songs and
books and poetry and fictionthat really in science fiction
and speculative fiction, thatinvites us to imagine just a
(40:54):
different way of existing and adifferent way of relating. Yeah,
I have, I could talk about thatfor a while. That's why I was
like, oh, I want to talk aboutthat song, because you have a
lot of themes. But I think thatit's worth highlighting like
that, that there is like crossmovement solidarity. That's
pretty central, like, oh, yeah,
Eli Conley (41:16):
totally, totally, totally.
Alex Iantaffi (41:21):
Yeah, I feel like we could have this conversation
forever. And I want to berespectful of your time. So one
of the last things I wanted totalk about was inspired by one
of the songs on the new album aswell, let them see. And I was
really thinking about this piecearound visibility, and how
visibility can be socomplicated, I think, for a lot
(41:44):
of us who are minoritized, andespecially for trans folks. And
so yeah, I was I was curiousabout what's your relationship
with visibility as a, as an ourtrans artist, and also, you
know, you've been open aboutyour journey with chronic health
issues on social media, youknow, you've been, you know,
you're openly involved withdismantling white supremacy, you
(42:07):
know, with including songs likewe keep each other safe. So
yeah, what's your relationshipwith visibility? And now has
that changed maybe over theyears?
Eli Conley (42:15):
Well, it's interesting that you bring that
up in relation to that song, letthem see me because it's
actually I wrote it. There's onesong on the album that I wrote,
not by myself, I wrote it withmy friend, Pamela macula. And we
were kind of thinking about, asartists, like the kind of, I
have a student who calls it themortifying ordeal of being
perceived. I know you're atherapist. So I was like, Yeah,
(42:42):
I really want to be seen, and Ihate being seen, right? Like,
and we were kind of thinking ofit in that place of like, we
wrote it on Zoom during thepandemic. So when we weren't
performing also, you know, beinglike, do we want to be seen
again, like, what does it meanto be seen in all your
vulnerability, and when you'relike, not sure you're as, quote
(43:03):
unquote, good as other peopleare, that what you're making is
actually valuable. But toactually frame it in terms of
like, trans visibility. It'sreally interesting, because that
is something that I think abouta lot is like, I'm very out as
an artist. And as a teacher, Iteach like music classes for
queer and trans folks andallies. I really want queer and
(43:26):
trans people to be able to findme in my work, both as a teacher
and as an artist. And not everysong I write is like a gay song.
You know, like, I don't actuallyknow that playing at like, a big
city pride stage is like thebest venue for my work. Like,
I'm a kind of sensitivesongwriter who makes you cry,
you know, and like, you know,certainly shout out to the like
(43:49):
country and folk queers who havea tear in their beer in the back
of the Folk club or whatever,like, that's my people. But I
think I do also want to becreating work that is like,
resonant with people, throughand beyond queer and trans
communities. And I think I amlike, people definitely be about
(44:10):
my work not only relating toqueer and trans themes, but
about the like many themes thatI cover. I think it's easy to be
pigeonholed as an artist in acertain way. And yet at the same
time, right now, it feels allthe more important to me to
like, be making art that isunapologetically queer and trans
(44:30):
and be like, kind of creatingthose moments of reflection and
beauty. And the word that'scoming to my head is recreation,
which is not exactly what Imean, but you know, like, joy
for queer and trans folks,because this maybe speaks to the
solidarity piece to like, Ideeply, deeply believe that when
(44:51):
queer and trans people are free,everybody is more free. Just
like Fannie Lou Hamer civilrights organizer said, Write,
nobody's free until everybody'sfree. And so I think my work
only coming more free as a queerand trans man is actually
(45:11):
something that createspossibility for everybody to be
more free. And by making workthat sometimes centers queer and
trans experience, because thatis my experience, it allows
people to kind of, if they'renot from our community, like see
my experience from the inside ina different way, but by also
making work that's about chronicpain, right, or about losing my
(45:33):
grandmother, or about theimagining a world without
police. Those are also ways likethings that are relevant to
queer and trans people, we'reall going to deal with losing
people, we're all going to dealwith living in this world
structured as it is. And so Iactually don't see them as like,
separate kind of the like,visibility as an artist period
(45:55):
and visibility as a queer andtrans person. Obviously, like
you said, it can be a doubleedged sword where we can become
a target when we are morevisible in the world. But I also
think the backlash from thefascists is like, because we
actually are so powerful thatthey are afraid of us. That's
why they're trying to get, youknow, tucking underwear taken
(46:16):
out of target. Right? It'sbecause like, actually, that
trans people having access tobodily autonomy is a like,
radical, beautiful thing that'sbecoming more mainstream, right.
And so I think that's the thingI try to remember is that when
we feel that huge movementagainst us, it's a reaction to
our power, it's not a sign thatwe need to back down, it's
(46:39):
actually a sign that we need to,like, keep moving forward and
being our like, beautiful,freaky, queer and trans selves
in as many ways as we possiblycan and like, lifting each other
up. And I guess that's what Ithink about visibility right
now. Yeah, no,
Alex Iantaffi (46:59):
that's great.
Well, and you know, and I reallythink that when we, you know,
that's the thing about writing,in general, we can speak from
our experience, but there issomething that often touches
people that have a differentexperience, right? That's like,
I think that's the power ofwriting, whether it's writing a
book, writing a song, writing apoem, or even like a painting,
(47:20):
right, we can go from such aspecific experience, but then
there is something that touchesother people. And I love what
you said about our power,because in a way, we are
powerful as being trans folks,in terms of body autonomy,
right. And I think that fascistsare very scared of body autonomy
right? I remember being at myoldest kids school when she was
(47:42):
laid on this tiny young person,you know, maybe six or seven
year old was like, Are you a boyand I was like, No, are you a
girl? And I was like, No, andthey were like, you've got to be
one and I was like, I actuallydon't you do know that you can
decide who you are. And I waslike, I'm a bit of a girl and a
bit of a boy or for neither youknow you depending on the day
(48:03):
and they were just like, okay,when you see the little like
gears you know going and I waslike when you were talking about
that I have that memory and Ithought yes we are friends yeah.
Because in a way that's like ifwe can have this body autonomy
if we can have this freedom tobe ourselves what else is gonna
question right control andfascism is all about control.
(48:27):
And so if we body autonomy isthe opposite, I think of control
in a way so yeah, and and Ithink that then when you add
being an artist on top of beingtrans and queer, that's more of
a threat. Because now you're notonly a body autonomy, but you're
inviting people into this worldof creativity right which is
(48:50):
also threat I don't know.
Eli Conley (48:54):
just love those thoughts and as somebody who's
like, you know a thing or twoabout fascism I know
Alex Iantaffi (49:01):
Yeah, I mean, I was brought up with like stories
and fascism. You know, mygrandmother my school teacher
was very alive that not wantingto go back there. Unfortunately,
it seems that people in mycountry though so you will have
the time to sing a song for youor press that'd be great. So
(49:25):
yeah, given that we've beentalking about your songs and let
them see I would love if you hadthe capacity for it for you to
sing.
Eli Conley (49:45):
Gotta put on a Full Face of makeup, gotta match my
earrings to my belt. I gottastyle my hair just right. It's
time to scroll my phone whilemaking breakfast Perfect
(50:19):
pictures flashing by I choose afilter for my post. I pick the
one that hides trying to lookbetter than myself to let them
see cause I that I would measurethem see this being me is never
(50:52):
why I sit down at the table withmy notebook and my pen I write
what's on my heart that peoplecare about my shot better than
(51:18):
my camera let them see when Idon't that I would measure up
can I let them see when B isnever why What if I die? No.
(51:47):
Song would I have been here atall? What if the cost of stay in
hidden is greater than luring?
Only the folks never fly neverfall? Gonna let them see me if I
(52:08):
measure them to let them see meit's actually me and me is
actually
Alex Iantaffi (52:45):
what a beautiful way to end now you got me teary
eyed. People are listening andnot watching I"m like
Eli Conley (52:54):
I didn't hear you.
But I think you said somethingabout.
Alex Iantaffi (52:58):
Yeah. Like, as like for folks are not watching.
Like I'm definitely teary eyed!You know if they're listening.
Well, thank you. That is sobeautiful. Like, I love your
songs. And what a treat to haveyou share one of your songs with
our listeners. Thank you. I knowwe're wrapping up. Is there
(53:20):
anything we haven't talked aboutthat you really wanted to share
with people or not? And if not,that's okay.
Eli Conley (53:27):
I'll just say the record "Searching for what's
true" comes out July 14, so onall the streaming platforms
then. And if you're interestedin checking out some songwriting
or singing classes with me, justcheck out my website
eliconley.com. And I teachclasses online. So I work with
folks all over and yeah, justbig, big thank you to you, Alex.
(53:49):
I am a fan of your podcast. Ilistened to it. And so it's such
a treat to get to be on here,thank you for having me.
Alex Iantaffi (53:59):
Oh my god, you're so welcome. I'm such a fan of
your music. So this is like, youknow a very happy, very happy
episode for me. I'm so glad thatyou were like, oh, let's do
this. Yeah, so I will put yourwebsite on the episode
description as well. But yourlisteners and our viewers as
well, because the podcast isalso on YouTube. You can go and
(54:22):
follow Eli right now on the anystreaming platform, right,
Spotify or wherever peoplelisten to their music. They can
probably find your music as theyget ready for your beautiful new
album which will be released onJuly 14. So very shortly. Thank
you so much again for being onthe podcast and making the time.
Eli Conley (54:45):
You have a great rest of your day.
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