Speculative Queer Fiction with Redfern Jon Barrett

Episode Transcript
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Musical Intro (00:04):
There's a whole lot of things I want to tell you
about. Adventures dangerous andqueer. Some you can guess and
some I've only hinted at, soplease lend me an ear.

Narrator (00:26):
Everyone has a relationship with gender. What's
your story? Hello and welcome toGender stories with your host,
Dr. Alex Iantaffi.

Alex Iantaffi (00:36):
Welcome to another episode of gender
stories. It is my honor and mypleasure to introduce to you
Redfern Jon Barrett, who is theother two novels including proud
things sky is speculativestories set in the world's first
LGBTQ plus state, which has beenreleased by by waterbucks in
March 2023. Redfern's, essays,reviews and short stories ever

(00:59):
appeared in publicationsincluding the sun magazine,
where Anika strange horizonspassages North pink news booth
FFL, Parsec, orca and naturefutures. They are non binary
queer as a PhD in literature andcurrently live in Berlin, where
actually this book is also set.
So welcome, welcome red furnace.

(01:21):
So good to have you on genderstory. Yes, I love the the
physical copy, please do show itbecause now we do video as well
as audio. So there's the bookhas a beautiful cover, you
should definitely buy it. It's afantastic book, and I can't wait
to talk with you about it. Solet's start with you know, I've
read the book and I've got somequestions about it. But let's

(01:44):
start by introducing the book toour listeners and viewers and
just maybe give them an overviewwithout any spoilers of course,
for those who have not read it.

Redfern Jon Barrett (01:54):
Yeah, absolutely. So properly sky is
set in the world's first LGBTQState. It's an alternate Berlin,
and the city is divided intodifferent districts. So there's
districts for differentcultures, different lesbian
cultures, and then by people,queer people, trans people and

(02:16):
other people who don't conformin various ways, live in slums
on the outskirts. And it'sreally an exploration of LGBTQ
identities, and the conflictsand also solidarity that exist
between different communities.
It's also an NP topia novel,which is a concept that I've

(02:37):
been exploring, merging thebreaking down the binary of of
utopia and dystopia in order tomerge the extremes of both and
create something wholly new,something that is dramatic and
has, you know, this utopiandystopian elements, but which
isn't dogmatically one way orthe other, which I think is

(03:01):
honestly the only way to exploreLGBTQ cultures, you know, a
large, so yeah, it's setting theworld's first gay state. It
follows two central characters.
There's the teenage William,who, with his lover, escapes his
homophobic home and flees to thecity and city, who is a young

(03:22):
mother of two. And she has beenliving in the city for six
years, but she's never reallyexplored it. And when the novel
starts, she starts to get morecurious about the city. And when
her family is caught in a riot,she becomes she finds it

that's okay.

Yeah, she she's drawn to find out what's
going on. And to explore this.

I love it that I am so excited for those of you
who have not read this novel yetyou're in for a treat. It's
really really good. It'sgripping. You know, when I
picked it up, couldn't put itdown. I just wanted to know
everything that happened to thecharacter, so I highly recommend
reading it and and I love thatyou mentioned that challenging

(04:08):
that dystopian Utopia binarybecause actually, that was one
of my questions. Like, why didyou feel it was important to
challenge the binary constructin speculative fiction of Utopia
versus dystopia? Like what madeit feel like? Yeah, why not go
into one of the traditionaldirections? Let's call them of
utopia and dystopia and go forthis and be topia, I think you

(04:31):
called it right.

Absolutely.
Yeah. And what have you, youknow, I really love both utopia
and dystopia. I'm not like antigenres. And, you know, I've
written dystopian short storiesbefore. I mean, I've written
books of dystopia. But I thinkthat each of them have like
their own limitations, you know,and I think there's sometimes
not obvious for utopia. Youknow, I think we don't get a lot

(04:56):
of works of utopian fictionbecause I'm It can be quite a
rigid thing, you know, to, youknow, no one's really going to
agree on what a perfect worldactually is. And also, that's a
society that can never change,you know, that is permanently
fixed. And also just, it can bedifficult to write utopia, you
know, like, finding conflict anddrama within that setting. And

(05:16):
dystopia, you know, is a lot offun. And I really, really enjoy
writing dystopia. But the issuewith dystopia is I don't think
that it's as socially useful asas a genre. You know, I don't
think that, you know, we thinkof dystopia as warnings. And I
think that implicitly, we thinkof dystopia as protecting us

(05:37):
against the scenarios that theyshow, you know, we don't
necessarily think of it overtlyin that way. But, you know, this
idea that these warnings can canhelp protect us from the future.
And I don't think that's reallythe case. You know, I don't
think that I would say, youknow, I don't think that 1984
really did much, you know, tocombat the surveillance state,

(06:01):
you know, it didn't stop it. Imean,

it doesn't seem to have

much as I love cyberpunk, and prepping
skies work of cyberpunk. It'sportraying these kind of hyper
capitalist futures, hasn'treally done much to stop the
momentum of, you know, sort of,you know, these kind of like
distorted economic realitieshappening. And I think that what

(06:30):
actually happens when we writespeculative fiction, and when we
write the future, I think thatwe bring it closer into being I
think we change people'sexpectations of the future. So
if we're to write a futurescenario in which the government
is overbearing, andauthoritarian, and other people
pick up on that and create worksthat the same when you grow up

(06:53):
without gives the idea that thatis what the future is gonna be,
you know, and if we it's thesame whether it you know,
whether the future is kind of apolluted wasteland in, we almost
stem start to think of the worldin a couple of centuries, time
has just been that, you know, sowhereas Utopia can inspire, I
think that dystopia, likelikewise manages our

(07:14):
expectations, you know, and kindof drags them down into in
visiting futures that are darkerand bleaker. So what I think is
really want to do with what Ireally want to do with Danby
topia is use the useful thingsabout dystopia, for example, you
know, these kinds of like,analysis of society, and what

(07:39):
could go wrong, what is goingwrong, and extrapolate on that,
and take the elements of Utopiathe elements that can give us
hope, the elements that showwhat is good about our species,
and how things can get better,and to interweave the two of
them, you know, in order tocreate fiction that is both
inspiring, but also deals withour real problems. And I think

(07:59):
that that's something especiallyimportant for marginalized
people. Because, you know, Ithink it's very, very difficult
for marginalized people often toconnect with utopia, because it
doesn't recognize our strugglesthat we go through, it doesn't
recognize the suffering that weoften experience, you know, and
I think that can make itdifficult, at least for me to
relate to, you know, your dresslike this, you know, I often get

(08:22):
trouble on the street, and Ican't really properly connect
with realities that don'trecognize that kind of
oppression. But at the sametime, you don't want to wallow
in it, you know. So I think thatmix of hope and critique is
really, really central to NPtopia, and what I think can be
totally can be useful.

I love that. And I love them paraphrasing what
you said, I think, but you saidit much more beautifully. About
when we write the future, youknow, we're also kind of bring
into being in some ways, and Ikind of got chills when you said
that. And I thought, yes, reallymade me think about how, in a
way or fear collective here, asexpressed itself in a lot of

(09:03):
dystopian, really seeing therise of even dystopian
narratives in dominant culture,you know, through Hollywood
movies and TV series, like TheLast of Us hands on, I think
it's really a manifestation ofhow overwhelmed and afraid a lot
of us are about the future. Andso in a way, it was really
refreshing to read this and haveambi topia normal, where things

(09:26):
were messy, you know, what Imean, things are not easy to
see. And, and I love thatbecause life is messy. And so
let's talk about speculativefiction as a medium for a moment
if that's okay. In and I reallythink that speculative fiction,
I don't think it's an accidentthat there are so many queer
folks in speculative fiction,right. I think it really gives

(09:49):
us an opportunity to likeexpand, explore, imagining, even
heal sometime, right. And so Iknow you said a little bit about
your feelings about the Socaversus you Dope. Yeah, but
what's your relationship tospeculative fiction as a genre
in general?

I think like, as, like a lot of queer
people, I think that we kind ofneed speculative fiction,
especially, you know, in momentsthat do seem particularly dark,
you know, when homo queer andtransphobia are all on the rise.
And I think that we need to, ithelps us to think about future

(10:29):
possibilities. And you know, Ithink that that, and it's a
relationship that can bedifficult and complex, for
example, you know, like, one ofmy favorite novels, you know, as
a teenager was The Handmaid'sTale, and, but I couldn't bring
myself to finish watching theshow, because you know, that the
current environment I can't dealwith, with watching a show in

(10:50):
which I would be dead, and myfriends would be dead, you know,
that a future that doesn't eveninclude us. And, of course,
that's not a critique of Atwoodswork, it is important, and it is
something that's that's had ahuge impact. But I think that we
really, really need kind of alevel of inspiration, we have to

(11:12):
look to the future. I mean, Ithink as well as something that
a lot of marginalized groups,likewise need is to actually
look forward and say, What canwe build? What do we want? You
know, it's an important part ofactivism. And also, I think,
just just getting through theday, you know, for queer people
to think of worlds that couldbe, you know, better or at least

(11:35):
different from the one in whichwe live. And it's not pure
escapism, that's an importantthing as well, you know, it's
not like we just want to onlyside up I don't just want to
vanish into another world andforget about this one as fun as
that can be. It's, it's to findinspiration, I think. And I
think that's why so many queerpeople are drawn to speculative
fiction because their futures inwhich or they're often futures

(11:59):
in which we can have more agencyand less harm, I think, and for
me, that's, that's somethingthat, you know, whether it's I
read recently, cat Rambo's, yousexy thing, and I just loved it.
You know, it's just this, thisworld in which sexuality, gender
identity, and everything is somuch more fluid. I felt the same

(12:20):
with Becky Chambers as workrecently. And yeah, and I think
that's something that can itselfbe really easy.

Absolutely. Oh, I have so many thoughts going on
right now. But let's talk aboutthe timing of your novel.
Because just the other day, youknow, I was on Twitter, and
somebody was like, and again, Idon't remember the exact words,
but you know, that we didsomething like I think I'm ready
to talk about kind of a LGBTQPlastination, right. And I found

(12:49):
a view immediately, because I'mlike, Oh, I've just been reading
about that quite recently. Andso yes, during this kind of what
I would call the rise of fascismin many countries, including
where I'm located now, the US myhome country of Italy, I think
the UK also seeing kind of arise of we can call it

(13:10):
conservativism. Fascism, butwhatever we call it, there is a
lot of anti queer and antitrans, especially sentiment.
Yeah, the timing of your novel,in a way seems pretty attuned to
the Times did that have aninfluence? Like the current
socio political, culturalenvironment on your decision to

(13:31):
write this novel? Or did theinspiration come from somewhere
else? But I'm just curious aboutthe relationship to this time,
if that makes sense.

Yeah, I mean, the timing, something that
is really kind of coincidental.
I don't want to say, fortunatebecause it's not a fortunate
situation. But actually startedwriting this novel 10 years ago.
And when I started writing, itwas a short story. And, you
know, I sent out some places andI got this kind of consistent

(13:59):
response that this is, this istoo big a setting for short
story that it's, it would dowith being longer. So yeah, then
over 10 years, I wrote it andrewrote it. And it's, it's
something that's been influencedas time has gone by, by recent
events, but its core, the novelwas always critiquing what I
what I like to call kind of thenesting dolls of hate for a

(14:23):
start, you know, this idea of,of taking out your own
oppression onto people who haveeven potentially even less power
than you do. And, you know, thatwas something that I saw ever
since I was 18 years old, that'swhen, you know, when I first
went to university and gotinvolved with, you know, sort of
LGBTQ activism, you know,immediately you know, of course,

(14:45):
encountered a lot of lovelypeople and a lot of very
tolerant and supportive peopleas always exist in queer
communities. But at the sametime I encountered you know,
immediately that kind oftransphobia by phobia and I
believe hassled me because itwas like, you know, why? Why do
this? You know, we've we've beenlike invalidated ourselves.
We've come under, you know,pressure and attacks ourselves.

(15:07):
Like, why would you continuethis? And I've seen it kind of
over and over, you know, both inBritain, I've seen it here in
Berlin. And I couldn't reallynot write about it, because it's
something that has always kindof fascinated me like, What is
this need? Where did where doesit come from? And I think a lot
of different places, which iswhat I wanted to explore in
propping sky. But yeah, so it'skind of it is kind of helpful, I

(15:32):
think, in the way that it'scoming out now as things are
kind of coming to a head becauseI think it is more important
than ever, that queer and transonline fiction actually is out
there. Because I think that atthe moment, there is this kind
of battle of people'sperceptions of LGBTQ people. And

(15:53):
I really, really think that weneed to, and we don't get a lot
of chance to tell our stories,to be perfectly honest. Like,
the media generally isn't veryinterested in talking to
actually queer and trans people.
It's always a bunch of streetsbefore talking about us to each
others. It's always been. Andyeah, sorry. So I think I think

(16:14):
prepping sky is is has comeabout at an opportune moment.
Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. And you talked about inspiration, right,
with speculative fiction. I'mcurious about, was there an
intention of what you wanted toinspire in the reader with proud
pink sky? You know, and as thevision changed over the 10 years
of writing the novel?

Um, yeah, I mean, this kind of ties back to
me topia, again, because I thinkpart of the reason that I don't
feel very comfortable writingutopia is, I don't want to hand
the reader my idea of a perfectworld. And this is how things
should be. And this is kind ofsimilar message, you know, there

(17:00):
are things that I want to wantto explore myself. And I think
that's really where myinspiration for writing
generally comes from, is, I getreally curious about certain
scenarios, certain aspects ofhumanity, and then I want to
explore it for myself, and thenhope that other people do as
well. So there's not like oneparticular message beyond, you

(17:21):
know, kind of, I'm a very firmbeliever in solidarity, you
know, I think it's really,really important, especially
because the forces that arefaced by minorities are very,
very large, very well funded,and very well organized. And
without solidarity, I really,really fear for the future. So

(17:42):
that is a message that I want toget across. But the actual
details of those things aresomething that I wanted to, for
the reader to kind of interpretthemselves. And so there's a lot
of characters in prepping skieswith a lot of different
viewpoints. And I kind of didn'twant any one of them necessarily
to dominate, but to have thiskind of collection of

(18:03):
experiences in the novel, andwhat it really means to be gay,
lesbian, bi, trans or queer.

Yeah, and one of the things that it's really
interesting, even in the openingof the novel, where you have
that just this little guide tothis alternative, we're laying
right is that you're, you're thegay district, you're the lesbian
district, or bisexuality wasmade legal in 1969, or something
like that. I think in the novel,I don't know if I remember the

(18:32):
year Exactly. But I was curiousabout the role of identities
that challenge binaries, whetherit is kind of cisgender ism, so
the gender binary, or the binaryof gay versus lesbian, and what
happens when that also becomes achallenging of power in this

(18:53):
alternative, kind of world? Andso I hope I'm making sense. Does
that make sense?

Yeah, I think the challenging binaries
is always to challenge power andpower structures. Because power
relies on binaries, it relies onin groups and out groups. And
especially since the 19thcentury, we've really, really a
society has kind of gone all outon categorizing people and

(19:21):
placing them in boxes. Andthat's something that has become
core to people's conceptions ofidentity is that they have this
very, very fixed idea ofthemselves. It is distinct from
another group. And that's true,whether you're a straight person
looking at gay people, orwhether you're gay looking at

(19:41):
trans people or lesbian people.
It's there's always thiscompulsion to limit yourself.
And I do understand that, youknow, it's when I was 18, I came
out as gay and that wassomething that at first I really
he really felt like kind ofcomforted by the kind of like,
the walls of this box,essentially. But then I feel

(20:04):
like it's to kind offundamentally ignore yourself to
just wall yourself in like thatand to box yourself in. Because
we're not static beings, we'realways changing. And I think
that it is really, reallyimportant. You know, if I'd seen
myself now 18 years old, I thinkI would have been terrified. You

(20:25):
know, I think that would havereally felt like, Oh, what is
this person? Because I think Idid, you know, I really bought
into this idea of not outrightmasculinity, but you know, kind
of gender identity being veryfixed and solid. And I'm kind of
glad that I always stayed opento that. And I think that it is

(20:46):
something that is hugelybeneficial to question if those
binaries that we find ourselvesin both on like a kind of wider
social level, but also on apersonal one, because you really
never know what you can find outabout yourself.

Absolutely, I love what you said about that
challenging binaries, in someways is to challenge power.
Because there is kind of almostthese units to the possibility
and the expansiveness right ofno boxes. And so I also really
heard when you said there wascomfort in those walls, I'm

(21:24):
like, Yes, from a traumaperspective, there is a sense of
containment and belonging,right. This is where I belong.
Like, I remember when I firstcame out, and, you know, I was
saying I was by and there's alot of by phobia on the lesbian
scene, which is where I was atthe time because of our
presented, and I didn't come outas trans yet. And so very
quickly, I was like, well, theonly like, sis men I'm attracted

(21:47):
to are gay. So I guess I can bea lesbian, you know, because I
wanted a sense of belonging,right? There is safety in the
sense of like belonging to likea pack and being contained
within a box. But then there'salso limitations, right? Like
you said, you never know whatyou can find out when you can go
out of that box. And so, yeah,that is such a field that both

(22:10):
micro and macro struggle, right.
It's an internal struggle. And Ithink it's also a political
struggle, right at the moment,there was a lot of talk, for
example, how a lot of disabledpeople feel really failed by
even progressive and kind ofleftist movements, right, during
this pandemic, and, and now thatwe're all pretending that this
pandemic is over. And so thisidea of cross movement,

(22:33):
solidarity, which is also inyour book is very challenging.
So how did you? You know, thisis also a story about
organizing, I feel in some waysproud pink sky. Right. So how
did you manage those challenges?
Have portraying those tensionsbetween, you know, in groups,

(22:54):
how groups, people who fall intothose cracks, right, like by and
some binary non binary folks do?
Yes. What How did you navigatethose? Because those are not
easy conversations to write ortensions to write? I don't think

not at all, no. It was something very
challenging. You know, I really,really didn't with this book at
all want to, through a villageor prioritize one any group over
any other? You know, I thinkthat there are absolutely
wonderful and important aspectsto all LGBTQ communities. And,

(23:35):
yeah, I really didn't want toalso contribute to that division
by adding a book that's like gayversus trans or something like
that, that would be kind ofopposite to the point. At the
same time, you've got to kind ofshow these conflicts show where
these kinds of prejudices comefrom, and how those might be
different in differentcommunities. And so yeah, it's

(23:57):
horribly difficult. I'm stillnot sure if I really got it,
right. I think probably everyreader is going to feel
different about that. But yeah,it's, it's really something and
that's partly why it took solong to write as well, you know,
trying to really, really bringall of this out. And also, you
know, it's, it's reallyimportant to me that straight

(24:18):
and sis people can read thisbook and understand what's going
on and identify with itthemselves as well. You know, I
didn't only want to write a bookthat was for the LGBTQ
community. And so that's anotherchallenge as well, you know,
writing this in a way thatactually is also in many ways
like an introduction to LGBTQcultures, for those who aren't

(24:39):
very familiar with it, whilstalso not alienating people who
are very familiar with it, youknow, so it was just hard to be
perfectly

No wonder it took you 10 years to read this book.
That there's a lot to likeaddress there and and also want
to talk about the settingbecause In a way, I feel that
sending it in, in Berlin isconnected to all of those
conversations. Right? And so Iwas curious about, you know, why
Berlin, your relationship toBerlin, as somebody who I assume

(25:13):
from your accent has moved tothere from the UK, I don't want
to make assumption, because wehaven't talked about that. But
that's my assumption I'm makingexplicit. So. And in a way, you
know, my understanding ofBerlin, even though I haven't
visited in a long time, is thatit is a city where there is

(25:33):
there are lots of differencesand contradictions, co-habiting,
even kind of queer world. And soyeah, tell me more about why
Berlin and your relationship toBerlin, if you want to, of
course, yeah,

absolutely.
So, I moved to Berlin in 2010. Ilived in Wales for eight years
previously to that, where I'vedone my mining studies. And
yeah, for a few years, I plannedon moving to Berlin with my then
partner, and it was somethingI'd finished my PhD and also
save up enough money, because wedidn't have a lot of that. So

(26:08):
Berlin wound up kind of beingthis dream, that I kind of had
for a few years before it couldactually happen. And I think
like all of these kind of longerterm dreams, when it actually
meets reality, it can be quite ajarring experience, you know,
not that I knew exactly what toexpect, but I kind of had this

(26:29):
idea of, of Berlin as this, youknow, it was quite utopia.
Especially, you know, you readBerlin's got half a million
people would advise gay andlesbian, presumably not even
including, you know, by queertrans people. And, yeah, and, of
course, I've had a lot of greatexperiences here. And I've met a
lot of extremely wonderfulpeople here. At the same time,

(26:51):
nowhere is free from the sameproblems that I saw back in
Wales, you know, and there's, insome ways, Berlin, even in an
even more extreme way, hascertain amounts of segregation
in the city. Temptation isputting it to too harshly and I
don't mean to appropriate thatword. But Berlin has these kind
of, like divisions andseparations. Yeah. And, you

(27:14):
know, like, for example, I thinkit's like much less common for
queer men and queer women, forexample, to spend time together
in Berlin than it was back inWales, you know, Republic has
community is smaller. And maybebecause community is so much
bigger here, people can kind ofdivide off, you know, into their
own groupings, they don't have ahuge amount of content

(27:38):
necessarily with each other. Andso, yeah, I think that partly
was kind of an inspiration forprepping sky, you know, this
kind of when we actually haveenough of us, it almost becomes
less unified. You know, themore? Yeah, I've kind of gone up
and down a lot with the city,you know, over the years, I've

(28:00):
been here for 13 years now. Soit's, that's a lot of times I
have a lot of different feelingsabout it. Yeah, and I think
that's also kind of whatinspired me to start writing MB
topia, as well, because that'show I feel about this city. You
know, Berlin is a city ofextremes. And that's extreme
good and extreme bad. And thiskind of Uncanny mix of the two,

(28:22):
you know,

absolutely. I really related, when you talked
about, you know, when there'smore of us, it's easier to kind
of separate it and kind of Hiveoff, I don't know if that's the
right term. But you know, Iremember like, even, you know,
in and of course, as more openlyout and trans queer people who
need any delay now, but in the80s, not a lot of people without

(28:48):
a screen trans. Right. And sothere is kind of a coming
together across identities. Youknow, even I used to be on this,
like, Italian lesbian emaillist. And it wasn't a big deal
when I came out as bi peoplewere in all sorts of living
situations, because, you know,queer stick together no matter
what, right? But when you havemore people than it's easier to

(29:09):
kind of almost replicate thosestructures of power that we're
used to, right. Oh, let me staysafe in kind of my area. But
then what happens when you'vedone easily belong to one
district? Literally, actually,or the other right, then? Then
you end up at the margins again,right? Because you don't quite

(29:32):
belong neatly into a box. And soyeah, and I'm just kind of just
reflecting on that idea of like,we can have those utopian
dreams, like you said, but thoseutopian dreams can quickly
become dystopian, if you don'tfit neatly into the very tight
box, which cannot change. And Ithink we're seeing a lot of that

(29:54):
with even, you know, squarepeople being increasingly
recruited. into the anti transmovement, right? Almost like
this is a threat to you know,your identity, who was, you
know, who's really gay in airquotes was really lesbian, you
know, trans people are takingaway from our communities. Just
that sense of fear. Yeah, and Idon't know, if you want to kind

(30:18):
of comment on that, or if that'salso part of what you kind of
sow in the world and kind ofwove into the book or Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, it is something
that, you know, encountered,from, from the moment that I
started. When I, when I joined,what was then that LGB society
at my university, and, you know,there were those of us who
fought very hard to have the teaadded at the time. And, yeah,
honestly, it was, it was oftenquite extreme, the Swansea

(30:53):
University, in the early 2000s,you know, there was a huge
amount of anti trans sentimentand backlash. And I was one of
the only male bodied people whowas competing against this, this
anti trans sentiment, and thatwas very afraid at the time. And

(31:14):
I think that that made Iremember giving a speech, for
example, in front of the studentbody, and the president of the
Union at the time, who I feltwas quite transphobic person
packed the meeting withathletics union, so, you know,
sports guys, and there wereabout 200 of them, and I'd give

(31:36):
the speech, and it was a, youknow, sort of shaking 20 of the
speech. And yeah, those thosekind of experiences, really kind
of, have stuck. And I think thatwound up inspiring a novel in
that sense. And I think that theresponse from a lot of gay and
lesbian people at the Universityat the time was fear was real

(31:57):
fear. And it was we've got toprotect ourselves by distancing
ourselves from people who seemless even less normal than us,
you know, it's like, kind ofsucking up to the bully kind of
mentality. I think, in someways, that fear is
understandable. I felt that feartoo. But it's really, really not

(32:21):
the right approach. And youknow, I think the people who
spent any time thinking aboutthis, you know, you realize it
doesn't stop at one group, youknow, you're always next on the
chopping block. Yeah, and Ithink that this kind of, has
always been there. But thedifference recently is that
there are very, very, very wellfunded campaigns against trans

(32:44):
people in particular, becauseelements of the right are always
looking for wedge issues, alwayslooking for scapegoats. Trans
people fit the bill perfectly,because a lot of people are
quite ignorant about transviews, trans people's
experiences. Yeah, and so Idon't think it's necessarily in
some ways, it's something thatis quite old, but at the same

(33:06):
time, it's something that is, isbeing given a kind of new force,
a new like empowerment to it.
And so we have to like kind ofwork hard never to establish the
solidarity. And I think thatthat solidarity does exist with
most gay, lesbian and bi peopletowards trans people, you know,
I like to think about the factthat one of the most pro trans
groups that there is, arelesbian women, you know, that

(33:31):
there's an overwhelming amountof support when surveyed among
lesbian women towards transpeople. Not to say that there's
not been transphobia there'sbeen communities of course. But
the media kind of often distortsthis and it takes these like for
you transphobic gay and lesbianpeople and platforms, the hell
out of them. So that even if 95%of people who are gay or

(33:56):
lesbian, either have no strongfeelings for trans people, or
stand in solidarity with them,it gives an impression that
there's ultimately like this,this huge groundswell of hate.
Yeah, which I think is a realproblem, obviously.

Absolutely. And you know, when you were talking
about, in a way, those kind oftechniques to inspire fear,
right, like taking this 5% andplatforming or like the
president of the Student Unionlike packing you know, the room
with like, jocks basically, likesports people, it's an
intimidation technique, right?
And it made me think about theopening of your book where the

(34:35):
you know, I don't want to givetoo many spoilers, but there is
a young person who after beingbullied and, you know,
experiencing physical violencefrom their peers that is subject
to kind of the headmaster'sintimidation and threat really
for the story of homophobicviolence that kind of uses to in

(34:57):
intimidate this young person.
And then there is an exchangewith the same person, their
lover about, you know, theirlove or going country be more of
a land, right? Because even ifit's about sexuality, it's also
about gender, right? It's aboutthose people who just cannot
hide it. Right? And so becauseof that, that there's that

(35:17):
dialogue, right, which makessense, like, in terms of
survival, right. Some peoplesurvive by hiding and
pretending, and sometimes evenparticipating in the homophobic
violence against peers, becauseit's so scary to be on the other
side. But some of us have neverbeen those people who can hide
it. Right. And so then then whathappens, you know, yeah, and I

(35:43):
love the opening of the novel,because I really, I don't know,
I just felt a lot of people,including myself, could relate
to what happens to those of uswho don't fit into this box that
gets narrower and narrower andnarrower in some ways.

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know,
that's experience I had as well,you know, growing up, I was
never, and I think that, youknow, the more that I kind of
dive into my own identity andthink about myself, you know,
the kind of more, a lot of myexperiences fall into place, and
kind of make sense. And, youknow, as a kid, I really didn't

(36:23):
fit in terms of gender, binarygender identity at all, you
know, and, you know, I playedwith toy cars and dolls, you
know, and I know that it's, itfeels kind of silly to say,
because it's never like onething that's like, based on
gender identity, you can't likepinpoint, these are the toys I
played with this demonstrates.
But it's like a collection ofall these different experiences
together that, you know, startto make sense, I always had a

(36:45):
lot of friends who were boys andprincipal girls, and didn't
really ever fit in with either.
And, you know, as a kid, ofcourse, that just hurts. You
don't think about like what youmight be, you only see what
you're not. And, yeah, that wassomething that I really, really
was important to put into thenovel, you know, this kind of

(37:07):
real. Inability to fit in, andit's something so cool,
especially when you're younger,you're told by all the adults
around you, you know, you justneed to do this just. And
essentially, it's always somevariant of just that more
normal. But our natures aren'tsomething that we can
consciously just change. And thebest that we can do is

(37:30):
essentially put a wall aroundour true selves, and act out a
performance of who we'resupposed to be. And I think that
the, just the personal and thesocial impact of that is
enormous. I think I genuinelybelieve that we would have a
much, much better world ifpeople didn't feel pressured
into doing that, because Ireally think that that comes out

(37:51):
in in 1000s, and 1000s ofdifferent ways.

Oh, absolutely.
Like, even just thinking, youknow, as you were talking, I was
thinking about the conversationsI was having with sis women,
just before and after topsurgery, for example. And many
sis women felt that gave thempermission to talk to me about
how they hated their chest, orthey would also get rid of it if
it was socially or culturallyacceptable. And I was like,

(38:15):
well, you can actually, like,there's no rule, there's like no
rule that you have to like, keepyour body as it is, right. Since
time immemorial. Humans havelooked at body modification as a
way to kind of express and alignright. But there are those
scripts, right, there are thescripts that people feel they

(38:36):
have to fall into. You knowwhat, this is what I'm supposed
to do if I'm assigned male atbirth, and, and this is what I'm
supposed to do if I'm assignedfemale at birth, and this is
what being a sis woman means.
And this is what being a sis manand then we replicate those in
our community. This is whatbeing trans means. This is what
being non binary means. Binarynow who's trans enough? You

(39:00):
know, what, what, who gives youthe car that was like, there are
no cards, people, literally, Imean, there aren't cards now
because you can put an X Iguess, on your driver's license
here have them similar bitnervous about that level of
identification by the stage butyou know, like, there's just
this feeling that people have tofall into the script. And one of

(39:22):
the things I love in the bookkind of were talking about a lot
of the heavy topic but there wassomething that was it's funny
enough funny at the same timeright in the opening when
there's the guy and there's thislittle like script flip around
that are sexuality likeheterosexual sir fine in the gay
Republic as long as you like,you know, and again, I'm
paraphrasing but like don't doneput in our faces, right, keep

(39:45):
your public display displayaffections to yourself, which is
what a lot of experience right?
How many of us have heard fromfamily members or straight
colleagues, like, I'm fine withqueer people, but you have to
kiss on the street to thechildren have to see that look
like, like children don't existalso, you know, in terms of
preparedness and transmis.
Right. So I love that, thatflipping the script, but there's

(40:08):
also a shadow to flipping thescript right in that then, like,
sometimes that's also usedagainst by folks and manifested
by phobia. And so yeah, I wasjust curious about that kind of
flip Script, Script flip,whichever way you explore the
promptings guy.

Yeah, I mean, I can't I really, it would
have been, I think, very easy tojust write a novel in which kind
of like homophobia is replacedwith Tetra phobia. It's just a
wacky world that's upside down,we're strictly for press. And
there is, you know, there isthis element in the novel of,
you know, you kind of have whatit means in the state to be a

(40:52):
real citizen of this Berlin. Andthat is to be in a same sex
marriage. That's the ideal inthis world. So of course, this
this exists, but it's, it'ssomething that, yeah,
absolutely. applies to by peoplein particular, and pansexual.
People, it's I know, there arescenes in the novel that

(41:12):
demonstrate that, you know, thenit's also something that, you
know, again, I think if you'vehung out in gay spaces, for
example, you do see that, youknow, it's this hole, and
thankfully, I hope it's gettingbetter. But you know, I'm so, so
tired of who we were, like, Illvaginas kind of thing as though
men can't have vaginas. Andlike, of course, they can. And

(41:34):
also as though like, I'm sorry,but you don't have to be
disgusted by something orsomeone because you don't find
them sexually attractive. It'sthe most immature response. It's
like, I don't know, I, I don'tfind like plump, sexually
attractive, but I'm notdisgusted by Yeah, and I really,
really kind of wanted to explorethat element. Because I also

(41:56):
think that an unhealthy thingthat can often happen when you
do receive a lot of abusesocially, is to retreat into
this identity and to shun,again, is the binary thinking to
shun kind of what is seen as theopposite of this identity. So
you see that with this kind ofkind of disgust shown, say, for

(42:20):
example, monkey went towards,towards women or towards vaginas
or towards heterosexuality. AndI think that that that has not
going to fix that allow you topunch down. So that's
particularly with anti bias,anti bias sentiment and anti
trans sentiment. And I thinkthat also, this I've seen this
happen as well, you know, I'vebeen in touch with a lot of

(42:42):
people involved with withwomen's groups. And in South
Wales, there was a particularcommunity that I knew several
people from the I don't likeusing this time a lot because
it's abused. But there's acertain amount of misandry to
this community, you know, like,there's a real like, male pets
aren't allowed on the land,women who don't have their

(43:04):
gender tested, have the babyhave to leave after like three
or four months of pregnancy.
It's almost like this kind ofmythical idea of like the penis
being this kind of source ofevil and oppression. And I think
that when you get into this kindof level of essentialism, and
binary, it really, really hasthese knock on effects against
even more vulnerable people. AndI think a lot of the transphobia
that is coming from particularlyin Britain, is coming from kind

(43:26):
of this, this kind of aversionthat comes from victims at your
own victimization, you know, andI think we all get it, I think
there can be this temptation tobe like, if I'm going to be anti
straight, because I've had somuch shit from straight people.
But there's all sorts ofunintended consequences of it.

(43:48):
And honestly, it's never goingto hurt the people in positions
of horrible social power. It'sonly ever going to punch down.

Oh, my God, so much. So I have so many thoughts
on that one, because it's like,it doesn't hurt just the people
who are not in the category. Ithurts everybody. You know, as
you were talking, I had so manykinds of memories, like little
snippets of moments, you know,being at the queer bar, and, you
know, I've been my lesbianfriends going, Oh, you did you

(44:18):
just lend your inhalers to thatman. And I was like, Yes, he was
having an asthma attack anddidn't have his inhaler on him.
That's happened to me too. Ofcourse, I gave him my inhaler.
Right. And there was like, youknow, not only oh my god,
somebody with a penis touchedyour remailer which I was like,
what level of purity Are you allimmersed in? But also this

(44:41):
piece? This terrible piecearound? You know, HIV phobia,
like, well, what if they'relike, What if they're HIV
positive? I was like, yeah, whatif they are that is not our
transmit. I have a lot of closefolks. Right. And it's like, so
it was so and then on the otherand you know, hanging out with a
lot of gay men because I used tobe in HIV. You research I
remember going for coffee. Andfor some reason, there was one

(45:04):
of those few vaginasconversation and I just had like
an OBGYN appointment thatmorning. And I was just done.
And I remember just like going,Okay, if you didn't have one,
and you're not putting yourpenis in one, you cannot talk
about it right now. You know,the silence descended, right?
And that, and I think it's justthose moments. And those moments

(45:24):
were also painful, because it'slike, you don't fit neatly
anywhere, right? It's like, Ididn't get invited to some of
the like, boys dinner, right?
When, even when I was like, evenwhen I was trans masculine,
because I wasn't quite masculineand after, so it's something
suspect. Right? And so I'm withyou, it would be easy to
retreat. I totally get I don'tmean, don't get me wrong. I'm
all about 240 and retreating andtrans community. But that's not

(45:47):
exempt from issues either.
Right? So

I'm happy to like, I'm not again, it's
March, I will be safe spaces.
And I think those are reallyimportant, you know, but it's
like, I think that there's akind of difference between
coming to other people likeyourself and sharing your
experiences and feeling safe fora while. And like, you know,
sort of pushing away. Otherpeople. Yeah, exactly.

And see for whom, you know, in a way, it's like,
if we're basing on thisbiological determinism, we're
leaving out a lot of people. Andyeah, so even, you know, in
spaces that should be safe inairports, they're not safe,
because then there's all thiskind of, honestly, kind of
beaker bigotry and hate, which Iunderstand it's protective,

(46:35):
right? It's so much easier tothink there is a big bad, I was
brought up a second wavefeminists, right. So the penis
was the enemy. You know, therewere people were like, political
lesbianism was the purest thingthat you could do, right. And
also, I've seen people like verypainfully women who had done
that, and then in their 40s, and50s come to terms with their

(46:57):
sexuality, because they fall inlove with a sis male partner,
you know, their communityfalling apart, their support
system falling apart, the painof now, no longer belonging to
queer community, you know, insome ways, and it's, it's just
heartbreaking. I mean, I get thefeeling as humans, we want a big
bad, right. There's nothing moresatisfying than to read a book

(47:19):
or watch a movie where, yes,there's the big bad, you know,
the ultimate boss, you know,like in games, but there is no
ultimate boss. Right. It's andthat what I love about your
book, you know what I mean?

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's,
you know, what I think isimportant and be topia is, yeah,
you're right, that there's notlike a big bad and, you know,
sometimes, you know, there arecharacters in propping sky who,
and again, to avoid spoilers, Ihave viewpoints that I would
think are much less empatheticthan others. But it's something
I always tried to go in withunderstanding where this comes

(47:55):
from, and why is this and thisparticular character, lovey in
the book who, honestly, I put alot of sunlight darker thoughts.
You know, but it's, again, it'ssomething that I really, I
believe in, in many ways thatthis person's position can be
understood. It's, but it hasthese kind of very dark

(48:17):
manifestations. Yeah, and Ithink that I Sorry, I had, I was
in Brighton recently, and doingreading a novel and I met up
with MJ who I think, yeah. I'vealways, always loved meeting
with MJ, and we were talkingabout, you know, this kind of

(48:42):
desire to single out specificpeople or single out specific,
you know, because it's like it'svisible, it's like vanquish
bubble. But in reality, whatwe're dealing with it forces and
traumas, like manifestingthrough individual people, but
it's not really about thosepeople, you know, like, and
that's something else that, youknow, I kind of wanted to

(49:02):
explore in the book was like,how do these How does trauma
wind up influencing kind ofoppression? How does trauma
generally oppression, you know,and you're probably getting off
master tangent?

No, that's yeah, that's a great tangent because I
think that it has a lot to dowith trauma right? If I think
about you know, my ownexperiences as survivor, the
words an appeal in some ways andsecond wave feminism in like,
you know, this is bad becausemales you know, and sis males
that meant at the time areperpetrators and aggressors, but

(49:38):
there was a part of me thatcould never fully buy into that
probably because of my own transidentity, right, even though I
was still finding my own voiceto that and also because I was
never into those extremes. Therewas a part of me that always
resisted this dichotomy. So itfelt to felt to narrow it felt
too limiting, right. And I alsounderstand, like, have a lot of

(49:59):
compassion. Question for Oh, Isee where you're at as you're
hurting as you're trying to keepyourself safe. By in keeping
yourself safe. You're actuallynow inflicting pain and, and
lateral violence and traumapotentially on other people.
Right. And that's kind of in away our trauma perpetuates if
we're not careful, you know,while I've been a victim and

(50:23):
those people over there theperpetrators, so there is
nothing, right that I could sayor do that is bad enough. But
But actually, there is, right?
Because not, you know, it's kindof this confusing, almost the
micro with the macro, right?
It's like not, not any onecategory can be seen as evil,
because that takes away ourhumanity is dehumanizing.

Absolutely, I think there's a really, really
good good point that you madewith that, like with kind of
having this idea that evil iselsewhere. And I was in my
teenage years, I was part of ahomophobic Christian evangelical
movement, which was, had its ownbreed of trauma. And one thing

(51:14):
that I noticed among thatcommunity was, the evil was
always somewhere else, that evilwas coming from Satan, from the
bad people from the people insociety who are ungodly. And
when you do that, and I thinkthat this, the same mentality
can exist if you're not carefulwhen you are part of a
marginalized group, and you'relike, well, the evil is men are

(51:35):
evil is straight people. Andthere are critiques of men and
strictly. But it's what happens,I think, when you do that, is
you erase the idea of your owncapacity for evil? Yeah,
exactly. You know, like, itreminds me of this kind of this
community that used to be partof because like, they really,
really would, you can do kind ofawful things, you can treat

(51:57):
people terribly, and you won'treally ever question yourself,
because you err on the side ofgood, and you're not part of the
evil. And I think that that canlead to some of like humanity's
most destructive impulses. And Ialso think that that's, that can
be a problem tying it back tosci fi genres, that can be a
problem with utopian thinking,you know, it creates this idea

(52:19):
that, that evil is somethingelse that it can be eradicated,
that it's not something that wealways have to question
ourselves about. You know, it's,and I think we've seen like,
throughout history as well, thisidea that, like, if we take,
like a very, very fixed idea ofclass, for example, you know,
there can be this idea that ifwe just, if we just take

(52:39):
everything away from thecapitalist class, then you know,
that evil will be fixed. Andwe'll have like a utopia. And,
you know, it's I'm not, I'm notsaying it's a great sense of
cuts of capitalism, but like,the problem with that kind of
mentality is that it then allowsfor atrocity, you know, and this
is a much bigger scale than say,like, you know, gay or lesbian
communities. But we always,always have to be able to look

(53:04):
for the evil within ourselves,you know, for to actually watch
out for, well, what is, youknow, because we will get
afraid, we will get scared, wewill get angry. And we all have
the capacity to do terriblethings, while in those frames of
mind.

Absolutely. And I think that part of the healing
from trauma for me is kind ofclaiming agency and power and
coming to terms with the factthat actually any human,
including ourselves had thecapacity to hurt other people,
you know, both intentionally andunintentionally. And actually we
do, and what the best we canhope for is not to do it

(53:39):
intentionally. And the best wecan hope for is some when we do
and intentionally is not tooterrible, and that there is the
possibility for repair. Right?
And the love, like how sci fi isstarting to explore that, I
think, in a lot of ways, right,that I think there are lots of
wonderful writers that exploredthat much more nuanced, right,
from Octavia Butler to the muchmore kind of dominant culture,

(54:01):
Doctor Who, right, there are somany moments specially in the
latest kind of season, where inthe one before where there could
be, you know, the doctor couldturn towards destruction of the
enemy, but cannot because that'snot who she is, right? And so
it's just like this, this veryhuman struggle, right? Like this

(54:22):
very human struggle of like, is,when is it okay to hurt somebody
else? When you say, okay toobliterate somebody else, right?
When is it? Okay, like all thosebig existential questions that
get explored in speculativefiction, which are very much
also in your book, and that Ithink that's what I love about

(54:42):
is that there are veryexistential themes in a way that
you explore.

Yeah, it's, I mean, it's the kind of hobby
avoided.

You really can't avoid existential themes. That's
fair. That is it I mean, somepeople sometimes do, but really,
it's pretty hard to do to avoidexistential themes. Yeah.

And I think, you know, I think that a
lot of what we've been talkingabout, you know, these, they're
not things that are limited toany one group, and again, you
know, was propping sky. Yeah,it's a novel about the world's
first gay lesbian staid. Butmore than that, it's a novel
about trauma. It's a novelabout, you know, oppression,
it's a novel about groupidentity. And, you know, those

(55:31):
are things that I think that allof us in different ways can
relate to, you know, it's notsomething that is limited to
LGBTQ groups, by all means, Ithink that these are, these are
very, very human things.

Absolutely. So I feel like I could have this
conversation forever, as I dowith pretty much all of my
guests, but I want to berespectful of your time. The
last thing I want to talk aboutis actually pride. And now it's
handled in proud pins sky,because we are coming into Pride
Month. And so it seems veryseasonally appropriate. To kind

(56:05):
of talk a little about what'sPride Month, like in the gay
Republic, you know, in an LGBTQplus state? Well, one meaning
best pride I have in this kindof alternative, kind of queer
history timeline, let's call it

Well, I mean, that's the thing is
because it's, you know, theworld's first game has been
stay, you know, pride and thecelebration of pride, almost,
because it's also like, kind ofa national holiday, you know,
it's kind of like, the Fourth ofJuly of this K State. And so,
you know, it's something thatwithin the novel is, you know, a
huge amount of festivitiesdecorations, you know, it's kind

(56:41):
of the biggest holiday of theyear, in the Merlin novel. And,
yeah, that's, you know, it's,I've always had a kind of very,
very mixed relationship withpride myself. So I was part of a
group that helped establishSwansea is first its city in
South Wales. First gay pride.
LGBTQ pride, it was we didconsciously into two groups. It

(57:06):
didn't want to get remembered asthat because they wound up being
a commercial. I came along acouple years later, that
advertised itself as the firstbut we had like our own, like,
much less well funded. And yeah,I, I went to pride in Cardiff
and then moving to Berlin andBerlin, has multiple. And this
the big mainstream commercialpride, which, you know, I

(57:32):
honestly have never actuallygone because I've just never
really connected with with thekind of mainstream pride events,
I think they're important, Ithink that people should really
go and enjoy themselves, Ireally have a not against this
kind of mainstream prides, but Ijust never really felt the kind
of energy of them somehow therewas a kind of queer pride that

(57:54):
that used to take place in thecity. But then, you know, kind
of vitriol, left wing infightingdestroyed it, but that was a
beautiful event that used totake place in my neighborhood.
And it would be you know, 1000sof queer people and just
beautiful atmosphere, but alsoincluded everyone you know, so
it wasn't very commercial.
That's kind of been replaced inBerlin with the Dyke March,

(58:17):
which is this very, very queerinclusive, sort of lesbian queer
March, which I went on last yearincludes people of all genders
so it's really really lovelyevent. So yeah, I didn't know
there can be so many things thatare prior there's my point in so
many different ways of doing it,you can have the kind of like,

(58:37):
corporate sponsored, veryflashy, very big pride, you can
have the kind of DIY, you know,sort of put on your best
dressing up clothes, and like,all just come together and just
have a messy time. Andeverything in between. and In
the novel, you know, it's, it's,even though it's kind of the
state function, I still kind ofwanted to serve this idea that

(59:00):
like, pride isn't one thing thatthere's like all of these like
1000s and 1000s of differentprides like happening around
this time, just like in ourworld.

I love that because in a way that that
corporate pride, and I could bewrong, but it feels it's almost
replaced by this kind ofnationalist pride, right in the
book because like you said, itis like the Fourth of July kind
of celebration for the gay andlesbian Republic. And so yeah, I
love what you talked about that.
It is so many things and in away, it's an experience of

(59:31):
connection and celebration, butwhat happens when we cannot
connect and celebrate forwhatever reason, right? And so
how do we then find new ways toconnect and celebrate? You know,
and, and that that process in away, it's never ending, right?
Because also things transform.

(59:52):
And again, I could keep talkingabout this, but I'm gonna be
respectful of your time and thelisteners time and so I'm gonna
ask you the last question that Ialways ask, which is, is there
anything that I have not askedyou about, that you are really
hoping to talk about or to makesure you communicate it to the
listeners and viewers havegender stories?

Redfern Jon Barrett (01:00:14):
I mean, we've covered a lot. There. I
genuinely, I've just enjoyedthis conversation so much that I
can't think of I'm sorry,probably like, five minutes
after we sign off or something.
Yeah, I, again, I really can'thear anyway, I think this has
been a really, really great andwider discussion. I've really

(01:00:35):
enjoyed it.

Alex Iantaffi (01:00:37):
Yeah, it was really fun and other men to put
you on the spot. I always justwant to make sure that if there
is anything, you know, you'llget to communicate it to folks.
And if people want to find outmore about you and your work and
want to get your book becausenow they're all excited to read
about this book, where couldthey find out more about you? Or
follow you on social media orget the book from?

Redfern Jon Barrett (01:01:01):
So there's my website, which is kind of
simple thing. And it has a veryshort URL, it's read john.com.
So RBD jln.com I on Macedon atRedfin. I'm in the main
instance, the Macedon social.
And yeah, that my publisher isby white sample press, which is

(01:01:24):
an imprint of Bywater books, soyou can get funding on their
website. Oh, and there was onething I mentioned, a friend of
mine made this incredibletrailer for the novel that like
I absolutely love and couldn'tbe happier with. And if you just
go into Google into YouTube, andjust search pro pink sky, the
trailer will come up and like, Ilove that trailer. Really,

(01:01:47):
really happy with it. It's socinematic and exciting. And
yeah, so I mean, if all elsefails, like just Googling
propping Skype. Yeah,

Alex Iantaffi (01:02:01):
now I have to go find that trailer and I will
connect it in the description.
Oh, yeah. Video trailers forbooks are awesome. You know,
I've been thinking about makingone and then it feels too
complicated. But I'm excited nowto watch the video trailer.
Well, thank you so much. Thishas been such a wonderful
conversations and listeners andnow viewers of gender stories.

(01:02:24):
If you're watching us onYouTube, please get hold of
proud pink sky, especially ifyou love speculative fiction.
But even if you have never readspeculative fiction, give it a
go. Because there is just somuch goodness, as you heard so
many themes. Exactly. Show thatbeautiful cover again.
Absolutely. I would show it If Icould but I only read the PDF.
So it is a beautiful cover. Youknow that's nice, like those

(01:02:48):
purples that ask yours love. Andso yeah, read proud pink sky and
watch out for more on red fencework. And thank you so much for
spending time with us today.
This was great. Until next time,

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